The Ringer NBA Show - How Does the Hall of Fame Help Us Understand Basketball History? | The Answer

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

With the 2021 Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame inductions this weekend, Chris and Seerat discuss how the hall explains basketball history. Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From in-depth analysis of basketball and football to life advice, Ryan Rusillo has got you covered on the Ryan Rusillo podcast. Join him as he talks to some of the best names in sports while providing sharp analysis and wit you won't find elsewhere. Check out the Ryan Rusillo podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined as always by Syrit Sohi. What's up, Syriot? How's it going, Chris? Well, I'll tell you how it's going. It's actually finally, totally, really. truly the off season. You know, we could, we could have done some tears. We could have done what the group chat guys did and talk about who we think will overachieve

or underachieve. We could talk about some NBA future bets or like the win loss over unders. We're not going to do that. We're going to get a little heady today. We're going to talk about basketball history because it's Hall of Fame weekend. The 2021 NBA Hall of Fame or Basketball Hall of Fame class is being inducted this weekend and names such as Paul Pierce and Ben Wallace and Chris Bosch. and Bill Russell as a coach,

and Rick Adelman as a coach, and Jay Wright as a coach, and Lauren Jackson. They're all going into the Hall of Fame along with Chris Weber. And I thought this would be a fun time to talk about our relationship to basketball history because it's, you know,

we talk on the Ringer podcast network and Book of Basketball specifically a lot about, you know, the historical importance of certain games, of certain players, of certain careers, of certain coaches. But I don't think we often chat about, you know, what basketball history means to us or what our relationship is to the game's past.

So I thought we could do that today because you and I are of different generations. We're of different relationships, I think, to different eras of the game. And yeah, I thought we could just kick it about that for a little while. Sound good? Yeah, yeah. Chris, are you an elder millennial? No, I think I'm Gen Y.

So I think I'm not, I think that's what I am. So I'm of, I'm not quite Gen X. I think I am Gen Y. I think I'm too old, too young for Gen X. But I'm probably like emotionally, culturally, Gen X, you know, like, I think a lot of like my, the sort of touchstones of my, my upbringing come from that. But what are you? Are you, are you a young millennial? What are you? Yeah, yeah. I'm in like the liminal space that a lot of people my age find themselves in where they can't really relate to millennials, but we're also just like not as cool as Gen Z. Right. Like, we think everything is cringe, but we also just don't,

have like our own imagination to figure out the next thing. So it's fun. So when you see these names being inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame, do they sound like artifacts of ancient history? I imagine for you, many of these people are basketball players that you actually have like a sort of relationship with. Like you saw Paul Pierce play. You saw Chris Bosch play. Like right? Like these are guys that you're pretty familiar with. Yeah, for not the first time, but over the last few years, is we're getting into that place where it's not like you're reading a book or watching a documentary to figure out who these guys are, especially Chris Bosch being a Toronto dude. But yeah, it's definitely, I think it changes the way that I am going to approach this Hall of Fame

and the last Hall of Fame as well, where you kind of get to see how players and end coaches position themselves in their speeches too, like how they try to put themselves into context when I also have like my own version of events as well. So it's interesting. Whereas before you were kind of like, oh yeah, this is the guy's speech.

This is like what he stood for. And you don't really like compare it to anything else. Unless it's, unless of course it's MJ. That's right. Well then that's in like a completely different realm of performance. The MJ Hall of Fame speech. That's a really good point.

You know, like I think that growing up And then even, I think, as obviously anybody could guess, like, when you become a member of the media, you still have your own personal preferences and rooting interests. And whether that's, like, based on where you're from or, like, just frankly, like, who you like who you like and don't like, you'll see names come along and you'll just be like, oh, it's my guy. I can't, I can't wait to celebrate this dude. There's been times in my life where, like, I really couldn't stand Paul Pierce. And there have been times where I've been like, this guy is just absolutely amazing. And that happens a lot. It's been wild for me to kind of enter this era where people from my kind of basketball blossoming, I guess you'd say. Because when I was a kid, basketball was like a fact of life. There were people in the game who were bigger than life.

There was Barkley and Jordan and Magic and Bird, who I remember from my youth, my childhood, that were super important. But I didn't really, I don't really, I don't really remember watching a ton of basketball other than Sixers games when I was a really young kid. I mean, obviously, the NBA wasn't like on the way it is now. It wasn't like you could watch a triple header every single night of the NBA season. It was way more local. And then there would be a national game on NBC on the weekend. And I think, I'm sure some people had more access than I did. But that was like the limits of my engagement with the game. And then I think the explosion of basketball not only as something that can fill up, an entire afternoon and evening of programming,

but there's so much media around the game now that, you know, I think we've gotten really both good and bad at appreciating things in the moment. And then that's propelled some of these names into sort of legendary status. I don't really know where you want to start with this. I mean, for you, what does the Basketball Hall of Fame even mean to you? Honestly, not a lot. Just because it feels like every good player gets to, get into the Hall of Fame. I'm definitely one of those people who feels like it should be a little

bit more exclusive. If only just to, you know, you want the thing itself to have to have meaning. And I think, you know, the Basketball Hall of Fame, while it's very secretive, and I also feel like gatekeeping in a way that like most Hall of Fame's are, like they kind of are, you know, the people who uphold old standards and stuff. It was funny reading out Paul Pierce talk about how his agent wanted him to apologize after, you know, he, uh, he, uh, he went on IG Live and, you know, just gave us a little, uh, sneak, uh, sneak, uh, sneak, uh, preview into his life. Uh, and he said, he said, no, that he wouldn't, but one of the reasons his agent wanted him wanted him to apologize is because, you know, they didn't, they were hoping that,

like, they were hoping that, like, they were hoping the Hall of Fame wouldn't, like, punish him. Um, and that, that part of the Hall of Fame has always been really interesting to me, but it's also like, it's their own power is, uh, is, uh, is, uh, is, lowered by the fact that like the bar is actually just incredibly low to to get in. I find basketball, my experience, like being around the NBA to be, for it to be very clubby. Like there is a real, like once you're in, you're in and like it's a family. Like they, and they talk about that in a lot of like the literature around the game that there is just this kind of like members. Once you're a member, you're a member for life with this game and with this league specifically.

But that being said, there really does feel like, you know, no offense to Mitch Richmond personally, but I would not, like, think of Mitch Richmond as one of, like, however many hundred best basketball players have ever seen in my life, he's in the Hall of Fame. And I think that was sort of like one of those guys who came along and wound up getting in that where people were like, wow, you know, like, you just really, it seems like if you've averaged like 17 a game for two seasons, like you can just get into the NBA Hall of Fame or the Basketball Hall of Fame. It's not as like, I, I, I, I, you just, you know, I, feel like it doesn't inspire debates the way the baseball hall of fame does. I mean, obviously now the baseball Hall of fame is probably also consumed with the debate of whether

or not, you know, guys who were accused of abusing performance and enhancing drugs should be able to get in despite their records and their achievements or gambling. And it's not like the same as the football Hall of Fame where I feel like that's like, you know, they got the brown blazers or the tan, the gold blazers and it's like real gladiators. And they're always like kind of like, it feels like the like the retired Warriors. The basketball Hall of Fame is just kind of like a nebulous institution. But I do think that almost speaks

to the interesting place we are with basketball as a historical artifact in some ways. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I think so. I think it's useful to look at the Hall of Fame more as like a guidebook for NBA history than it is anything else because of the fact that they will, like as you were speaking, you kind of it dawned on me that pretty much

anybody who the casual sports fan has heard of makes a hall of fab. You know, like that's kind of the bar. Yeah. Like the top four players on a championship team, sometimes top five will make it. And it's like, well, people know who they are. That seems like the standard. Do you think all starting five members of the Atlanta Hawks team that made the All-Star game will get into the basketball Hall of Fame?

You know what? Like that's, that is like an actual interesting point of conversation because like I could see us 10 years from now debating, like, is Kyle Corver a Hall of Famer? Absolutely. That is going to be a question we have. And it's going to be incredibly silly. Yeah. And then five years after that, we'll be recording a podcast on the eve of Kyle Corver's Hall of Fame speech. Yeah. And then hopefully Kyle Corver will do a Jordan-esque induction speech where he just like lights the entire league on fire. Oh my God, just does a complete heel turn. For you, where does basketball history kind of start for you?

And by that I mean, what is the time period that you start thinking of things in terms of history, like historical terms? Like, that's before I started watching. That's before I have like a great grasp of, oh, yeah, like I was watching that. And like, I know that like it's easy to do like old man or young woman. Like we're like we just don't understand each other because I remember when in, that we had a legal defense or something. But, like, I'm curious to know where you kind of see basketball history starting for you.

We should, we should lean more into, like, the ways that people probably think we are. Oh, like crossfire style? Yeah, yeah. Basketball history, for me, starts at the start of basketball. It was, you know, just a Canadian man, a Canadian man named James Neesmith was in a gym in Springfield. and he put a peach basket up on a pole, and that was the beginning of basketball. No, no, but really, though. I am a big nerd when it comes to this stuff.

Like, I've looked at, like, the original rules and, like, how they've changed and stuff, and I think it's, like, I think it's so fascinating because you get to see how certain principles never go away, and then there is, there are, like, the few things, or everything else actually is ever changing. But basketball was invented because football was too violent, really. Like that was like the, that was a prescription that Ney Smith had, I think, like, from, like, the dean. We're like, come up with a game that you can play indoors in Boston. And it just can't be football because it's too violent and, like, you know, there just needs to be

another alternative. And it's like still kind of just been that. So it's always been funny to me to hear people call. basketball soft. It's like, yeah. No, that's actually, that was very much the point. Do you feel like the NBA specifically, but in general

like that, the history of basketball is relatively accessible? Because this is something that I think, the baseball Hall of fame does a really good job of, or at least the last time I was there, where I felt like, when you walk into Cooperstown, the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, you really do, you can track like the developments

of the game, sure, the different players, the different historical moments of the game. I feel like Baseball has, like, its history is very much what powers its present. It's all about, like, chasing these records. There are certain numbers that we never thought we would see Eclipse. Then there are numbers that, like, were shattered, you know, and sometimes shattered legally, but, like, whatever. And, you know, a reckoning kind of, like, baseball has done what it can in terms of

reckoning with some of the things that have happened in its past. But with basketball, I feel like, you know, there are, I guess, like, my question is, Like, do you feel like basketball has the same kind of indelible moments and historical mile markers that say like baseball does? That's a really interesting question. It feels to me like most of basketball history is told in terms of survival. Like, the two biggest historical moments, at least positive ones, have been the emergence of bird and magic. as a rivalry. And then Jordan.

And like those two things like really help the league like take an extra step. And like, you know, for, you know, in the 80s, obviously it was just, it was legitimately a matter of survival. Those two seem to be like the biggest moments that are, that are framed to us. But in general, though, I really actually feel like basketball history is not that accessible. Because so much of it is actually just lost. Like if you look at looking at. looking at popular

lore, I guess, of what basketball history is, it's, well, it's incredibly white, which is, like, very strange for a sport

that is black. Like, there's a lot of stuff that just was never really, that has been recorded, but just, like, wasn't popularized.

Like, there have been, like, there have been attempts, right? Like, Black Magic, ESPN doc was probably, like,

one of the better attempts to, like, you know, show how essentially, like, you just can't separate blackness in basketball. But,

yeah it's it's strange to me that that has like even like especially now like is not like the dominant narrative uh like in terms of you know invention for example is is one of them like you know the moves they get popularized uh i don't think for example that bob cozy you know invented all his dribble moves by himself sure i think you know there were probably some people that he was coughing that were you know not essentially allowed to to play uh his level uh Same with coaching, right? Like, there's, you know, black colleges and stuff that, you know, like they played fast before anybody else did. Sure.

Four Corners is not a Dean Smith invention. It's a John McClendon invention. Like, there's a bunch of these that are kind of just hidden from view that I think obscure basketball history. Like, our idea of basketball history versus, like, what it actually is, is, like, it's pretty boring and, like, not. as interesting as like the reality of it. And then like even aside from race, I think that like goes to like just a way that we, we talk about it.

Like basketball history to most people I think is like MJ and he's just used as like a, I don't know, like a cudgel for everyone else. So like or like just as a bar that nobody else can reach. But when it comes to like trying to make like any interesting comparisons and stuff, like it just seems like maybe it's definitely a coverage issue. Sure. Maybe it's a league issue.

I don't know what it is. But yeah, the way that we engage. with basketball history is just like very strange. Well, that idea that you had about like this idea of survival, it's like you, when you place the sort of fate of the league and the fate of the, you know, the industry in on the shoulders of two or three guys, if you're saying like Michael Jordan saved basketball or Larry Bird, Matt Johnson saved basketball, that does like, that hugely inflates their mythology, you know? and it's hard to kind of like even reckon with MJ as,

and we're not even getting into like goat stuff. Like it's just like, it's hard to even like when you watch him play basketball like on old NBA, like on NBA TV Hardwood Classics. You're just kind of like, oh wow, that's right. He actually did play like regular games. Like sometimes he would just play the Pacers in December.

That wasn't always just the, you know, Byron Russell shot or the Craig Elo shot or, you know, destroying somebody who he was on the same team with sometimes. or an opponent, but, like, he was this, like, everyday basketball player. And that's one of the things that I feel like I don't really have as tight of a grasp or is tight of, like, a relationship with, like, day-to-day regular season basketball the way I did when I was younger and I cared more about baseball.

I feel like I really had, like, people's performances over the course of their careers, like, right at my fingertips. And with basketball, there's something about, the way in which we both make content around it and also consume that content that is like second to second and minute to minute and day to day and it's so granular. Whether it's breaking down plays from like relatively an essential or unimportant games, but like really having like this kind of like the minutia of those plays explained to us or it's just like the kind of constant storm of gossip that revolves around the league now. Whereas a lot of that stuff I think was somewhat. out of mainstream media for a good, good portion of the league's history. It was really more, I don't know, if I had to point at it. I mean, like, there was always like rumors and stuff like that and there would always be like these parts of the sports section where it'd be like a couple of news and notes trade rumors about what may or may not happen, but nothing on the level that

we've seen since the decision really. And since Twitter really kind of popped off in 2012, especially. But yeah, it's interesting to think about like I watch old soccer. matches sometimes. You know, there's a lot of like databases where you can watch, you know, soccer matches from the 90s or the 60s or the early 2000s and see different players like you can watch Maradona or you can watch, you know, you can watch Zadon. You can watch these like amazing historical figures. With basketball, it's kind of like limited to what they're showing on NBA TV. I mean, there isn't really like the basketball library online, right? Yeah, I don't like if there is a, there isn't like an official one. I'd argue that like the closest thing.

there are our YouTube wormholes. But yeah, it almost feels like an encouragement to be a historical. I don't know if that's because of there's something like endemic to the sports itself that lends itself towards that. Or if it's just like Twitter and the way that we all are about things or maybe it's gambling or, you know, just like people being in fantasy leagues and stuff. Like it's a very like basketball lens itself towards predictions more, I guess. So maybe that's part of the reason that we look at it this way. And it's like why it's why it's covered that way. But it's, I don't know, it's really interesting to me.

What do you think it is? Well, I think that partially it's like we've seen the game change so much over the last few years specifically, especially since the sort of in the advent of like playing smaller, shooting more threes, higher scoring, some of the rule changes that happen to allow faster-paced offenses or more fluid offenses so that the game now looks and feels much different than it did 15 years ago, right, like 10 years ago. It just doesn't even, it's not that it doesn't seem like the same sport,

but it would be really interesting to sit down with somebody who maybe started watching basketball in 2014 when the Warriors got good and say like, okay, let's watch this, let's watch this Pacer's Knicks game from the 90s or let's watch this Sixth or Celtics game from the mid-80s and see whether or not they were entertained or not and whether or not they thought it was like fun fun to watch. I mean, there's certain elements about that, which I think would be really instructive, like, you know, like the sophistication of postplay that happened for much of the sports history that has kind of evaporated in terms of of both being like a tactical advantage

that teams use, but I think even just like the skill level and the mastery of that position to play down low and on offense has just kind of been erased from the game. I don't know if it's going to come back unless there's like significant rule changes. So it's really, I think

a lot about how basketball specifically is this constant evolution. So you're just like always changing the way the game feels, the way the game looks, the way the game is played. Baseball, they do. that too where they have shifts they have you know some rule changes guys can take this long or that long on the mound but it kind of feel like baseball looks the same as it did in 1920 you know like ultimately like the way in which it's played is still like the goals are still the same do you find

basketball to be really malleable like do you think that basketball has changed since you started watching it in stylistically well yeah definitely um it almost like it it makes you feel like maybe the history of the game isn't that relevant because of how quickly things do change in basketball. But it still is. It was actually funny. Like during the pandemic, I think, well, a lot of people like us, we kind of had to just look for content really. And we started watching like these old games back when I was at Yahoo. And like we would do it like every Monday. And looking back at like, there were two kind of airs. that stick out to me.

The first is like, you know, the Shaq Kobe-era Lakers. The way that players were situated on the court was incredibly different. But at the same time, like, it still felt like the same sport, and it felt like you would be able to get ideas about what you could do in the future

based on, like, you know, stuff from the past. You know, like, the game does evolve, but, you know, essentially, like, there's only a couple of, different ways that you can like put a ball in a basket right like that's those are those are kind of going to stay the same um and yeah it was interesting to watch like just seeing like oh yeah no like they just like shack can just bull those guys and then seeing the lakers in the bubble kind of do the same thing was like okay yeah like just because something isn't something that we're doing now

doesn't mean that it's not effective and i think history can be really useful in in uh you know just expanding the context of what wins at least or the context of anything generally. And then the other one was like the Lakers with with Powell and Kobe as well. And, you know, for all the grief that Kobe got for for being a ball hog, he didn't really like, he didn't have the outlets that you have today. And it made me realize that like, we've talked about this before, I think, but like, LeBron really, really shifted the landscape of the game, like, physically, just in terms of a ball handler and a spread pick and roll and, like, having, like, these clear outlets to pass to. It's just way easier now to be unselfish than it was back then.

Like, you would see Kobe get trapped at, like, at the elbow, and, like, he has no, like, there's nobody in the corner, like, nearest to him. like there's nobody on the wing they're all kind of overloaded on one side like there's guys in a post like you know trying to get a like really like he would have to be off balance to give you this post entry pass

like it just lends itself to either a turnover or a bad shot so that was like that was really interesting because it allows you to put into context like those stats and stuff too and maybe that's another reason that people don't pay that much attention to history because like I think context

is so important in basketball in a way that it might not be, for example, in a sport like baseball, right? It might be easier to put things into context. But when you want to look at, like, you know, Will Chamberlain averaging 45 points or, you know, some of the ridiculous stats that we see today, I think we know because of the nature of the sport that it's, there's something behind that that makes like, not, it doesn't make history less true, but you know you'd have to like dig into it to find like the useful current. You know, I, when I talk, when we talk about basketball, specifically with this class too, when you're to talk about somebody like Bosch or Weber, who were so instrumental in changing our perception of what guys that size could do on a basketball court. It, it starts to get it very close to the way I learned about music history and you would sometimes hear bands. And the way that you would be sort of informed about them was like, you have to understand no one had done this before. You know, like, you know, like,

You may think this song is pretty good, or you may think this song is good, but the versions of it that came after are better, or the same style of music that came after it is better. But you have to understand, like, this band sort of flowered out of nothing. It took this thing and that thing and made the stooges or made the Velvet Underground or made whatever.

And in a lot of ways, like, that's kind of what we're talking about when we talk about the way Weber played. You know, like there were aspects of Weber's game that he borrowed or, you know, synthesized from other players for sure. But, like, having a 6'10 power forward, who was essentially the central playmaker of your offense,

was pretty novel, you know, at that time. And so, and it's since become, like, not uncommon, right? Mm-hmm. Are you saying Chris Weber is, like, the pavement of basketball players? Possibly. Yeah, I think also both in terms of, like, aspirations for greatness and also in influence, sure. Yeah.

Wait, wasn't Pavement like, pretty chill about like not being... That was the whole thing is that like, pavement never like became R-E-M. They were always just like, yeah, we're cool, like, kind of just being like this middle tier. I don't think Chris of Weber

was always like cool being middle tier, but he obviously never like got to the heights that some of his contemporaries did. Do you know that the lead singer is also a big bucks fan? The lead singer of pavement? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, he's in big... Malcolm's is in Portland now, so he's a huge, huge blazers guy. too. Well, I think he's mostly fantasy basketball, but yeah. But yeah, like when you talk about these guys changing the way positions are kind of thought about and changing the way different play styles are thought of. I mean, we've got a really cool class in that sense, right? Yeah, absolutely. And like, it's interesting to like look at like, you know, the way somebody like Weber,

you know, like was almost a precondition for somebody like Bosch to do what he did in Miami as well. like it's just kind of like it's just like it's like like it's like it's like you said like one of those reminders that like everything is kind of on its own stepping stone like like look at bill Russell for example um Bill Russell was like the first like he kind of invented everything because he was like one of the first people to do it on a high level um and like you know in a way that was getting attention like outlet passes blocks uh people weren't necessary like you know like blocks actually weren't really that much of a thing like you know coaches discouraged it and, well, being a player coach as well.

Sure. Like, yeah, a ton of different things. He's being inducted as a coach now this year, yeah. Yeah, yeah, which is funny. I remember seeing, like, Bill Russell getting inducted to the Hall of Fame and was like, right, what? Like, he's kind of like the Hall of Famer, guys. Yes.

But yeah, it's interesting, like, to see, you know, us go from that. And then there is also, like, you know, that stuff gets denigrated, too, where it's like, oh, well, Bill Russell was, you know, he was 6A. Like, there's no way that he'd be able to do that in the modern NBA. And, like, that's really not the point.

But I think that's, like, the natural argument that we get into because the way that we talk about basketball history has, like, more negative comparisons than anything else. Like, everything is about who's better than who. We never actually, like, unless it's, like, you know, in a podcast like this, there isn't a lot of talk about, like, one player led to the other, led to the other. It's always like this guy's better than this guy. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's a couple of things that contribute to that. I don't know why there's so much intergenerational antagonism in basketball. I guess there is probably in lots of sports.

But in basketball specifically, I think the reason why it's always at the sort of like the trending topic bar is because a lot of older basketball players who have positions of the media slip into, well, in my day, it wouldn't have been like this. by day, we would have like, this guy would have gotten closed lined as he went across the lane, or we never would have let him get an open shot like that, or if a dude was going in for a layup, you'd let him know you were there and put him on the ground. He wouldn't do that again. All that stuff. And also, I think some legitimately kind of like sentiments about the rule changes made it so that like a guy like me wouldn't get paid like the way the guys like get paid now. Whatever. Then you also have. I think probably some antagonism going the other way

where it's just like these old guys don't know what they're talking about. The game is bigger than ever. The game is more popular than ever. The game is more expressive and creative than ever. So like I think there is almost like a hostility to the past as well as a hostility towards the present. Yeah. And there's also there's actually like an understanding of the malleability of basketball even within those responses. Like it's kind of like hearing somebody say, well, if this thing didn't happen in my

life, then maybe A, B, and C would have been different, which is, like, you know, often, oftentimes that's true. It doesn't necessarily have to be like, you know, like, it's, it sounds like sour grapes from a lot of these guys, but it's, it's, it's low key. Like, they kind of get that the sport, like, exists in context in a way that, like, other sports necessarily don't. Like, you can look at Steph Curry, like, meeting the three-point movement. Sure.

At the, at its absolute apex. And then, you know, taking it further. but if he hasn't come along at this exact particular moment in history, then things are different for him. And I think, like, Chris Bosch is another guy where you could say that, too, where he pushed the game forward, but he was also, like, a little early, too. And he was used as, like, a classic 20-10 power forward with the Raptors, wasn't shooting threes,

was playing more of like, you know, a Carlos Boozer type of role, like picking and rolling within the three, within the three point line posting up. Total banger down low. Yeah.

Just cleaning up glass. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Like great post game. And he then evolved into like a three and D defensive linchpin for the heat. And if he had actually,

if he had eight, like, you know, come along a little bit later or also like had gotten to play later if he didn't get like those blood clods that forced him to retire early then I think we would have seen like him push even more Oh, you know, it's a great what if

is if Bosch actually had gone to the Rockets, you know? Oh my God, yeah. Because if you think about when he would have gone to the rockets and like the kind of the way that Houston was starting to experiment with like offense, you kind of wonder like would Chris Bosch be taking like nine threes a game at some point. I have no idea, but it's definitely in play.

I know that Houston was not yet at their most revolutionary, pure, like, let's just shoot 43s a game at that moment, but like, they were going in that direction. They were trending there. Yeah, and every player who has walked into, you know, walking into Houston has like, every All-Star

at least, has had their game reimagined in a different way. So yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's right. Like, if you look at like even how Chris Paul played there, Russell Westwood played their Hardin's game, really modernized there too. So that would have, yeah, that would have been really interesting to see. Just like, oh my gosh.

And just like, could you, could you imagine like on the other end of it? Like TNT Thursday, it's halftime. Chris Bosch is 0 for four. The rockets are trailing the clippers by like, you know, six points. And you got, you got Chuck, you got Shaq, got Ernie, just trying to just trying to keep everybody calm. But like, you know exactly what they're talking about. What is he doing in the corner? You know, I think the other thing that has a huge impact on the relationship between generations

of basketball players, between the way basketball fans think about basketball history, is rings culture, which sometimes I think is a little overblown, but I think is more of a product of the fact that not that many guys get to win rings in the NBA. you know, like there, there is a lot more, you know, like, I think opportunity in football, I guess is the best way to say. I wouldn't necessarily say parody as we've lived through like a very long New England Patriots dynasty. And, you know, there's obviously repeat appearances in the Super Bowl. But I think that there's a feeling that, like, you know, there are lots of things that contribute to getting to the Super Bowl to winning the Super Bowl, that football has lots of legends that maybe only won once or never even won at all. And then with basketball, this class is a really interesting case.

You know, Bosch's career changes drastically by going to the heat and winning those titles and being a part, the third part, but a part of that Miami team. You know, Paul Pierce's career, I think, is drastically different because of the ring that he won. We see him so differently. I think in a lot of ways, like, many people saw Paul Pierce as, like, possibly, like, possibly, like somebody who was not like achieving their potential before that ring before before that championship and Weber I think his career has been kind of defined by the fact that the kings never got over the home and that he wasn't the guy to take them there you know and so I think that that's also another reason why there's there is like hostility sometimes can be sensed when you were having

these sort of intergenerational conversations between or about players and they don't they don't they they don't have a championship to show for it. Yeah, yeah. And it was like, Bosch and and Pierce, like, when you take their, their reputational, you know, flow chart together, it's really interesting just to see that they've, like, they've both been at the bottom and the top, right? Like, with, with, with Bosch, like, when he decided to go to Miami, that was something that a lot of people criticized was like him being willing to be the

fiddle and everything. And then he also, he had some early struggles where he just like, you know, he wasn't rebounding the ball the way that he needed to. And then he had that zero point game. Like it was like, he really hit like bottom of the barrel in terms of like the way that people can't him. He was like, he was. He was. He was. And I think, like, you know, his openness to that. we would now, the Chris Bosch that we know now, who just, like, he just, like, you know, wrote a book and is, like, the king of, like, vulnerability amongst male athletes, like, we would say, yeah, like, it's actually great that he admitted that. But, like, that just showed, like, his career trajectory in the way that we talk about him, now is, like, just unselfish,

sacrificial, like, just egoless, like, sauce. Like, has become, like, kind of, like, a sensee in a way. Um, I mean, it just kind of shows you, this is what, I love about history. Like, no one is ever as good or as bad as you think that they are. Like, they're usually just, like, situation dictates so much. Like, growth is, like, always possible. And, like, then a lot of the ways that, like, just us as people and as a society, like, the way that we interact with, with the things around us, like, just shape how we view people.

Like, that is definitely true for Bosch, who is, like, you know, gone from, like, being soft to, hey, wait, is there maybe, like, something useful in the ways? that he approaches life. It's really interesting and it's like, it's really grounding. Like I always like, I like to read old basketball books and stuff just because like then you can kind of like turn on like what's,

what's happening today and realize like, A, you can put it into like more appropriate context and also just realize that like everything has kind of happened before. That's right. Yeah. When we're like, I can't believe that there's these like, there are trade demands now.

It's like there were trade demands before. Like what do we talk about guys? Guys were on seven-year contracts and they were said, like, too bad, like you're saying. Yeah, I don't know. What else do you find kind of, what else have you been kind of thinking about when it comes to, like, the basketball history topic? I think it's just like an interesting meta-conversation. I would be, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on just why we don't use basketball

history as, like, as a learning tool. Well, I think that, frankly, like, there is so much today. There's just so much for people to invest in. I mean, even as we were coming to this podcast, for instance, I was just like, is there like a even like a scrapyard NBA contemporary present day NBA story that we should be talking about rather than kind of having this sort of meta mystical conversation about like basketball's relationship to its past and its history and the NBA fans now and their relationships about their past in history?

And I think that that's because like we're kind of conditioned to think that like anything that's happening now is just like the most important thing that could possibly happen at any point in history, but especially today and especially this minute, we got to respond to it. We got to think about it. And it definitely has felt over the last like 15 years. So I like started kind of writing about basketball in 2003 for fun, you know, and now I obviously talk about basketball professionally, you know, much later in life. It definitely has felt like the era that I kind of came of age in, which was 99 to 06, let's say, which is, I think if you asked people at the NBA, they would be like, that's not my favorite era of basketball. You know, that's not my favorite

era. Malice in the Palace happened then. There was a lot of, like, antagonism on the part of David Stern towards the players. I think that there was a lack of understanding about, like, the culture of the NBA at that time. I think that there was a lot of hand-wringing about, like, hip-hop culture, and there was a lot of hand-wringing about, like, guys like Alan Iverson and what they meant, you know, and whether or not they were, like, what, like, people wanted from athletes, which is exactly why I loved him was because he challenged those notions in a lot of ways. I loved him for lots of reasons, but that was one of them.

And that era is, like, probably still the most special to me. I think that, like, people hold on to the things that soundtracked or were present at a very important time in their own personal lives, like when they were kind of figuring out who they were. And then that becomes, like, what you kind of put in Amber, Durask Park style and you're like, that's it. That's basketball. And everything since then is kind of like a deviation from that perfection. So I was kind of curious, I mean, as a way to kind of wrap up this conversation, but even as a jumping off point, like, what's your, what's your like frozen amber moment of basketball? Like when you are you past it, do you think now you're like, when I watch, you know, this version of like the Rockets now or if you watch, when you're watching like a basketball game like in the last season or two, are you like, yeah, this is. isn't like what I quote unquote grew up watching or what I fell in love with watching? No, not necessarily.

Like you still feel like you're in it. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. I'd say if I do end up having one, it will probably be like the Steph Curry, Clay Thompson, Draymond Green Warriors. Just because you could feel while watching that and like being in that that you were actually like witnessing something that was going to be one hundred percent history books

one hundred percent um and i think there's just like such a special feeling when when you know that that's actually going to be the case and then it was immediately the case like there were multiple books written about the warriors that that did just make them put them like once once you have a book written about you you also become part of history and in a different sort of way too like where like you know it's just like the mythology of you like while you're walking and breathing existing alongside you is super interesting to just watch like you know players coaches everyone navigate that take advantage of that too um so yeah like watching i think like i'm going to be really curious to see like where everybody that was on those teams like kind

of goes from here yeah um like when draymond is on tn t and yeah right yeah exactly exactly right like their future selves after like that snapshot in time where like draymond was like a very specific type of person. Like he was like the yin, he was the yang to Steph Curry's yen, right? Or like Steve Kerr's or really the whole, everybody else in the team actually just a lot of yin.

But yeah, it was like that that's probably that's probably it for me. And I think like it makes it makes viewing these games now actually more fun because like you see the legacy of that in the modern NBA.

Like there's still like that wasn't that long ago, right? Like the way that that Kevin Durant plays on the Nets, the way that the Nets are in a lot of ways, like, just like spread offense, like, you know, definitely not like, they borrowed from like the Rockets and the Warriors, right? And, like, those are kind of the two teams that, like, been pushing basketball to a new play. So for me, it's like, I don't, I think this stuff builds

more than anything else. Like, you got Trey Young now, right? maybe that's just like the way that I approach it. But I don't think I'll ever like look back. I hope I don't know. Well, I guess it's too early to say. It's not like I look back and I'm like that that basketball is now somehow worse or that I don't love it as much. It's just that that time is incredibly special to me. Yeah.

Because that's when I started, I think, thinking about basketball beyond did the Sixers win last night? And the thing that you're talking about that Warriors era, not only I completely agree with you. Like, I still probably with that, that two, that specifically the 73 win team, there are more moments from that season that I'm like, I remember where I was when that happened. Beating Memphis, whatever. Like, I just remember exactly where I was when this happened. I remember where I was in sort of the, those Steph, like, complete meltdown games. Like, I just always will remember that. And there was also something about that team that was effervescent, like that there was. something that seemed kind of like very, very organic about their flowering, that they're like, they just became like this, this juggernaut out of nowhere, even though I know that it was building up over years and that like, there were people who were like, yeah, you knew stuff was good if you could stay healthy. But, you know, think about like Draymond and Clay, like nobody knew

that they were going to be Draymond and Clay coming out of school. I think I can still get the same sensation when I'm watching. I'll remember where I was when I watched KD against the the bucks and his toe on the top of the line in the playoffs. There's nothing like corrupted about the fact that that team was built through trades and free agency versus the Warriors initially being built through the draft. Like I don't feel that way. But there is like there there's a romance to the Warriors thing that I don't necessarily have for their debts.

Oh, definitely. Definitely. Like there is like, it's the fact that it was organic, but also, I think watching them, like you kind of knew that we're. felt like you were watching the future. Like everything that they were doing was was so new, not just like the shots and like, you know, how much deeper is Steph going to pull up from?

But there were moments like that. Like the one moment that I think like will always be etched into my basketball memory is like as a pivotal sort of game changing thing was Steph pulling up for the 40 footer over the thunder and winning the game. Like the shot over Roberson. And that, like, there are certain moments that just feel like, okay, like something has just shifted here. And you see that. You see that with like the amount of deep threes that are taken.

And like you can, you know, go fast forward then to Damien Lillard, hitting the shot over the Thunder again. And Paul George's discourse about like, hey, is that a bad shot? And then he even he changed his mind. So we're actually like, you know, like that moment, that stuff has its own history now where you see like the way that the way that we think about it has progressed. And there's like a, yeah, it's so strange. Like there's such a natural like basketball evolves so naturally that we like kind of don't think about its history. But it's so much more interesting when you do. Because of that. And all the all the examples that we've just been talking about like especially the more recent ones, which naturally we have like more like our figure tips to recall. Like. where we were when we saw something five years ago versus 15 years ago. But the cool thing about all of those stories is there's a team and a group of players on the other side of those historical moments that were completely changed by them as well. And it sometimes is like the most interesting thing I think Bill does this very well when he talks

about like sliding doors moments in NBA history. But like I loved that Thunder team. You know, I loved the Thunder that played against the Warriors. And they felt like they were sort of like, you know, doorsteps to history for that team in a lot of ways. Like, there was never, it was never going to change. And maybe Durant understood that better than anybody. But, like, I, you think about all those moments with Jordan and MJ and LeBron over the last

two decades, three decades. And you're just like, oh, yeah, like, there was, there was an opponent. And that opponent's, like, career and trajectory was completely changed by what happened when they came up against history. Yeah. It's like being adhering headlights, too, especially at that moment when, like, a lot of people weren't really sure, like, is this actually going to work? That Thunder team in particular, like, was built in a way that, you know, it's not like they

couldn't score, but, you know, they valued size more than they did, you know, I don't want to say they didn't run. Like, I think, like, you know, you don't need to necessarily get into, like, it being, like, I don't know, old versus new or anything like that. But, yeah, like, they were definitely philosophically very different. Like, they rebounded incredibly well. And they were, I mean, they had tired the Warriors out. Like, they were very close.

Yeah. They were up 3-1. And it looked like they were going to win. So, yeah, and that's the other thing about history, too. It's really interesting. Like, you have these flashpoint moments where, like, one thing changes in our entire narrative of it is different, too. Yeah, who knows?

Maybe Steph Curry would have been asking to go to the thunder, you know? Yeah, yeah. Chris, are there any moments or any NBA history? stories that you feel are particularly poignant right now that would help us understand this this moment a little bit better. Well, do you mean tactically or do you mean just like socially? Anything. It's a really interesting question. You know, I mean, I think obviously the Malice in the Palace has been talked about a lot recently because of the documentary. You had your conversation with, uh, with meta. That was really fascinating. Like, I think a lot about Iverson

just because of, um, of where I'm from and like who he was to me when I was growing up. But I also think about him as like, you know, just kind of like a canary in the coal mine when it comes to a lot of some of the more like shit we put on athletes and things that we kind of like the way that like different contingents of fans will kind of project their own anxieties or preconceived notions onto athletes and kind of take whatever is happening in their life and twist it to suit like whatever they think is like what we want from a professional athlete. And I think we've seen echoes of that obviously over the last couple of years. So he always remains like a really relevant figure to me. I think he always remains like a very like we could we could learn a lot

from his career. And we could also learn a lot from he's another classic like if if Steph Curry was playing in the league that Alan Iverson was playing in, you know, like I think that he might have had a similar trajectory. Like Alan, there was not a three point kind of flour like flourishing when Iverson was playing in the late 90s and early 2000s. Like it was a guy like him was expected to dive into the lane, take contact and finish and go to the line. And I think it obviously curtailed his career a lot. Whereas like now I think that there is a lot more protections put in place really thankfully to like keep our best players on the floor for as long as possible. Yeah, he actually, yeah, he actually does like he touches a lot of different parts of history.

also podcast is named after him that's right but do you ever I mean is there anybody that you look at right now like when I think about Alan Iversing the guy that comes to mind more than anybody else right now is is Trey Young. Yeah I mean I've definitely

had to like think twice about like yeah I think that it's it's interesting to go back to Iverson and think about like how I was like you don't get this guy to so many people who are older than me then and then like just sort of be like I hate watching Tray Young like hunt for fouls. This guy sucks.

It's bad for the league. And realize like that's what probably I thought. That's what probably people were saying about Ivers in 25 years ago, you know? Well, we can wrap it up there. I think this is a really interesting conversation about like, you know, a topic that we often have a lot of time to talk about, which is basketball history.

But hopefully we'll hit on it again. Congratulations to everybody entering the Basketball Hall of Fame. I hope you guys don't take this wandering combo to me that we're not super psyched for everybody getting inducted. It's a huge moment in their lives, I'm sure, and we'll be watching to check it out. We'll be off next week, but back after

that and back to getting ready for the next NBA season.