The Ringer NBA Show - How Does the John Collins Trade Affect the Hawks and Jazz? Plus, Dream Trade Destinations for the Big NBA Free Agents | The Answer

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

Seerat and Michael get together to share their reactions and insights to the trade that sent John Collins from the Hawks to the Jazz. They examine the transaction from both Atlanta’s and Utah’s perspectives and discuss what this means for Collins going forward. They then take a look at the most enticing free agents still on the market and debate the perfect possible landing spots for each of them (20:25). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Seerat Sohi and Michael Pina Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to the answer where John Collins National Nightmare has finally, finally, mercifully ended. Collins has been traded finally to the Utah Jazz for, and basically a salary dump and a second rounder, very, very anti-clamatic

which is becoming a theme with a lot of these players who teams dangle for years and years and end up just releasing for close to nothing. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about the latest Dame news. And then me and Michael Pina, who is joining me, are going to go through 10 free agents. And the places not necessarily that they will land, but that we'd like to see them land.

So this is going to be a fun one. Mike, how you doing? I'm doing great, Siritt. I woke up at about 4 a.m. opened up a Google Doc, wrote down 10 free agents in there that are. somewhat random, but I think we'll make for a wonderful conversation as we work through this exercise. And yeah, I'm also, you know, John Collins. Let's just, I guess, start there, because that's the newsiest thing. Poor Hawks, I got to say, like, should have been traded.

When did we start? When was the first John Collins trade rumor? Like, three, four, five years ago? It just feels like this dude has been kind of bandied about for a really long time. Since his third year in the NBA, it was pre-extension because it started off with the contract. The hops are going to have to extend John Collins. Should they extend John Collins? Hmm. Maybe they should just trade him somewhere else that will actually want to extend him.

And then they ended up extending him. And then you thought maybe after that it would be safe for John Collins. I still personally don't think it's safe for John Collins. We'll get into that later. But yeah, it's just basically been his entire career. He's like the Miles Turner of being an NBA trade rumors. So when this trade happened, I got to be honest, I didn't feel bad for the Hawks, but I thought it was very kind of predictable.

Like I didn't expect them to necessarily get back just a second in terms of draft capital, but definitely didn't think they were going to get back any players of note, thought that the whole point of moving on from them, because of the new CBA, was to shed salary, get out of the luxury tax, and that's what they accomplished. And then their ownership comes out and says, you know, we're not afraid of the luxury tax. It's like you kind of are afraid of it.

You've never went into it since you bought the team. and you just took back Rudy Gay in a second because you were so desperate to get out of it. So I, yeah, I feel bad for Hawks fans. And I think that the Jazz got an awesome player. So maybe that's like the angle we should dive into a little bit. Like the Jazz, awesome, really good. Yeah.

I have, just to be able to get him for a second rounder, that's awesome. It's a good use of their cap space. It's an interesting sort of, I'm kind of wondering if there's going to be a new function of how much higher the salary floor is and the penalties involving not, you know,

not meeting the salary floor. It's like, it's $121 million. And with the John Collins edition and after they sign their rookies, they're going to be right there. So this basically just gets them to the salary floor. It makes a ton of sense because they're not really a huge re-agency destination.

and if they do want to sign somebody, they still have about $14 million in cap space to do so. So it's just a good flyer, you know. John Collins is still super young. He's coming off pretty much the worst moment in his trade value possible. Like you mentioned like the fact that he just has a contract that isn't attractive anymore in the new CBA that help matters for the jazz. But also just mean like, I think this whole thing kind of comes down to.

finger, right? Like, if John Collins' finger has healed, then this is an awesome situation for the jazz, then some of the fit concerns don't really matter as much. But yeah, I just want to run through it for a second. Like, John Collins in 2019 through

2021, for those two seasons, shot 40% from three. Then he hurt his finger, and he shot 29% last season. And there images circulating of his finger. I'm sure everybody remembers him. Did not look good. The bright side is that in the final 21 games of the season last year, he was back to shooting 38%.

So it seems like maybe he's, you know, on the upswing there. I also think that this just made it a really bad time for the Hawks to trade him. Like, I'm not really in poor Hawks camp. I'm in like really just poor asset management camp of this. I know that they wanted to trade him for a really long time. They have basically been projecting that out for the last three years and this was not

the moment to do it. They had him playing out of his role for the entire season. It was a down year for a lot of guys on the Hawks. Their offense just didn't click the way it used to. His shot distance, 12.2 feet, was the farthest it's been in his career. Only 11%

of his field goals were dunks. Only 29% of his shots came from within three feet. He was not playing John Collins basketball. Just being able to get back to that, I think, would be huge for him. Love the dunk stat. 22% of his shots were dunks

in 2020. As you just said, 11.5% last year. I'm not great at math, but that's half. So, not the trend that you want if you're John Collins or the Hawks. I love the fit, honestly, in Utah.

I love putting them next to a rim protecting big, which you can do obviously with Walker Kessler. I love the idea of just being humongous in the front court with a lot of offensive versatility, putting them next to Lowry Markinen. I don't know how good your defense is necessarily going to be, but that's going to be really difficult to stop.

And if John Collins attacks the glass and just plays with the motor that he did a few years ago when they made that deep playoff run, then this is fantastic. And as a pick and roll partner for Colin Sexton, he's great. I just like it a lot for them. And it's really fascinating that they did not have to give up any draft capital, any first round draft capital for a team that has more first round picks

than I think anyone in the league. So weird negotiation from the Hawks. And yeah, just a big L. But it's like also understood why, because like they traded a, made the trade. It's just like the domino effect of the trade for DeJante Murray. They didn't know that the new CBA was coming with the penalties that it would bring, but you have to extend Dejante. You obviously have tray on the max. You're just about to get really expensive. And I just stinks. It stinks for them. I don't know how they bounce back in terms of, I suppose like they

just need more production out of their young talent. They get a huge trade exception. 25 million, I believe, but I don't think that they're going to use it because it would bring them, put them back into the tech. So it stinks for them, but awesome for the jazz and the jazz are really cool and

are able to kind of win now or try to win now and be competitive now while also having just like the brightest future in the league. So yeah, kudos to them. Yeah, I mean, the Hawks aren't scared of the lottery. The way that Ben Simmons isn't scared of shooting three. It's like it's all

hypothetical we hear about it every offseason, but for once I would actually just like to see them dive in, you know? It's just not. I'm, so I want to talk about both those things that you brought up, the jazz future, but let's just stick on Atlanta for a second here. I just, what's, what's the plan? What's the plan moving forward? You know, you traded for Deonti Murray, you gave up a bunch of picks for him that had to be your all-in trade. it didn't work out. He doesn't really fit that well or compliment your best player

in the way that you need him to. He just doesn't space the floor. I think that's a big reason that we saw Trey Young's shooting numbers go down this season. Some of that is Trey Young, but a lot of that I think is just a lack of spacing. We got to get into the question

of whether they're going to keep Trey Young. It feels like they're going to kick it down, kick the can down the road for another season here. But I think you got to be looking at the Murray thing. And I just don't know how many times billionaires can pretend that they don't understand sunk cost fallacy. Because this thing just doesn't work. And this whole team, I don't know, I look at it and I think I kind of want to see them blow it up, honestly.

Like just try to recoup as many assets as you possibly can from what you lost in the Murray trade. and even start, you know, fielding the Trey Young calls early because, like, when you look at what their plan is to get better right now, it makes absolutely zero sense. Like, they spent all of Draft Night basically trying to get the Mavericks to want John Collins and they didn't. And now it's like they want to go find an all-NBA type guy. And they don't have the assets for an all-N-Ba-type guy.

They use all of them on Murray. They have A.J. Griffin, J.L. Johnson are probably, you know, their best young players. A Kongwu. They don't have a Kong will. They're going to want to keep him though, right? Like I feel like he's probably off the table. Absolutely.

I don't know that they have enough to consolidate into the type. They're talking about trying to get Pascal Seaccom. You're not getting Pascal Seaccom for that. You're not really, you're not even getting some of the guys that are easier to prize. So for me, it's just like, what do you guys do from here? It's tough.

Like, they thought DeAndre Hunter would be better. and DeAndre Hunter is kind of his development has been a little more static than I think they hoped last season. I was about as high on DeAndre Hunter as anybody who covers the NBA and I'm kind of, I've got like one foot off the bandwagon now. And I should probably have just completely nosed-dived off of it at some point last season. But they'd sign him to the $90 million extension. They extend Bogdan Bogdanovich at a pretty big number. Again, doing all of this before they knew what the new CBA was going to look like. And they're kind of hard pressed to, you talk about sunk costs,

but you kind of need to extend DeJante unless you want to get off that contract now. And I don't know what you can get for it because who's going to give you goods for him that are worth your while? like who wants to pay DeJante Murray big money right now? I don't know. So you're just kind of really hoping that, like, if I was looking at their roster right now and who I would try to trade,

it would probably be like, like I want to get off Clint Capella maybe and just open up minutes for a Kongwu. But even that's really tough because like you just gave up John Collins for nothing and now you're going to be really small. But when you said blow it up, is that just mean,

trade tray. Yeah, I'm done. I'm done with this team. There's just like, I haven't felt good about anything they've done since they made the Eastern Conference finals. And honestly, to your point about Hunter, too, I don't really blame you for having one foot in the door still because this is a team when you look at pretty much everyone that they developed, which is also why you have to feel a little bit good about Collins in Utah. Everyone does better when they leave. Kevin Herder is so much better when he's with the Kings. This team just did not really invest in the development of anybody else out of Trey Young. It's been so young-centric this entire time and everybody else just has to kind of

fit around. So for Hunter, I'm kind of, I'm ready to see what he looks like somewhere else. You know, I'm still not ready to completely give up on him. So maybe there's, maybe there's a case where you run it back and you try to, you know, see what these guys look like next year under Quinn Snyder in a new system. I still just don't think that adds up to like a championship level team, which then takes you just back down to that question of what do you do with Tray Young? It's tough. I like Trey as a player.

Flaws and all, like obvious flaws and all. But I thought he played like really well in that playoff series against the Celtics. Like I thought he was going to be kind of beaten up a little bit on the defensive end, which she was granted, but he was also like unstoppable for stretches on the road. against a really good defense that I guess we now know wasn't that good of a defense

but yeah it's just a tough situation for them and it kind of just all goes back to the Dejante Murray trade and the corner it's kind of pit them in and they're just kind of banking on

tray to continue to get better and Dejante to get better and Quinn Snyder to come in and just be the genius coach mastermind that he is and see what comes out of a training camp with all these guys. But building on two years of first round exits,

I don't know how you do it. It's going to be really difficult for them. They need a leap from a Kong where they need a leap from AJ Griffin. They need a leap from Jalen Johnson. Maybe all those things happen. And maybe their trade values go up. And then you're able to kind of accelerate your timetable a little bit and keep tray and keep Dejante.

I don't know, but it's a tough spot for them right now. And especially when you're not willing to spend money, which their ownership clearly is not. That's where it comes down to, right? Because if that's a plan, that's not necessarily a bad plan considering where you are right now, but then it's like, why do you trade John Collins?

Because, I mean, nobody was going to do better under Quinn Snyder than John Collins, especially coming off a year that he had, like just a perfect storm of bad circumstance in terms of fit and then also just his three-point or disappointing when they moved him to, to the perimeter. So yeah, nothing in Atlanta really makes a lot of sense.

Utah, on the other hand, got to be a lot happier with what they're doing. Let me ask you something, because it seems like you're very enthused by the fit in Utah for Collins. Is there any part of you that worries a little bit about the marketing thing?

I feel like one of the reasons that he made a huge leap in Utah last year is just how many more of his minutes he was playing at the four. Colin at the three, it's just something that we've seen that doesn't like like we said it's not as ideal fit no i think that i mean it wouldn't shock me at all if collins comes off the bench right like that's totally a possibility i think like mark an in it's it's weird to like even label them at a certain position because they would play markan in kelly olinck and kessler at the same time and be fine they would play

two of those guys in Jared Vanderbilt who can't stretch the floor at all and be like pretty good. So I think just like marketing is really, he's just so skilled offensively and can space the floor and play off the ball and you can just run all these different actions with him or not with him and have him enhance

what you're trying to run otherwise. So I think the fit is pretty good offensively and clean. Defensively, you're right, it's going to be really interesting to just see how they play. Are they going to just switch everything with, I think Lowry is like a really, actually, a really underrated defender. And he can hold up on the perimeter. John Collins has shown that he can do that a little bit.

Rim protection would be a problem when Kessler hits the bench. But yeah. And then the new rookie that they just brought in, who I don't know any rookie's names, I apologize. But he said that he wants to be like Bametabio. So I'm going to take him in his word and just say, your junior Bamatabio. Like, that's awesome. I want to be, I want to be Bamadabai.

I want to be Jared Jackson Jr. Okay, cool. Well, if you're like 70% of that, then the jazz are just going to win the title in three years. And that's great. So we'll see. I mean, kind of want to trust him after they drafted a rookie in Walker Kessler,

who ended up being a great rim protector right away. Yeah. He's, I think if Hendricks is, you know, playable and, you know, good in his rookie year and kind of project out to what,

what he's supposed to be in this league, which is just, you know, a floor spacing for who can protect the rim. I actually want to see what he looks like next to Collins, because I've always thought that was sort of the perfect fit for him, like a Brooke Lopez type almost, like a guy who can space the floor but also protect the rim at the same time. So Collins can be the one who dives into space on the offensive end. So, yeah, I'm interested.

I have a few questions. but overall I feel really good about this fit. But I'm also just kind of curious about what this means for John Collins long term, just because of where Utah is right now too. I love where they are. You can't be mad at it. They can be competitive and also just, you know, they have a whole bunch of draft picks as well.

They have a whole bunch of other people's draft picks as well. So it doesn't really matter to them if they win too many games either. So yeah, I could see this just being a stop where John Collins reinvigorates his trade value and then like goes in place somewhere else as well. That's a good call. I think you don't trade for this contract unless you think it can work though. You know what I mean? Like it's pretty expensive and it's got a lot of years on it. So I don't think you're just necessarily looking to flip it.

You could for sure. Not right away. No. I think if he plays himself out of this funk, it's flippable. Yes, I 100% agree But if he's like really good Then obviously it kind of defeats the whole point of wanting to move on from him Because they don't need to be bad to ultimately hit pay dirt

Because of all the draft capital that they have from the calves and from the Timberwolves So they're just in a really good spot I think Collins is in a really good spot here I think they'll win a lot of games I think they will make the playoffs next year And if everyone stays healthy Yeah, jazz great, Hawks bad.

Can we talk free agency now? Let's do it. Okay. So yeah, like I said at the top of the show, I sent you this email this morning and had 10 free agents on it. And basically, I just want to talk about where you and I want these free agents to go as opposed to predicting where they will. Because I think that the former is a way more fun conversation than the latter.

Because the latter is kind of what everyone else is talking about. So I have 10 guys. that I gave you. And can we go out of order actually? Because I'm just realizing now that the first name is like really boring. So we can hit him at some point. It's your world, man.

It's your world. Cool. Let's just start with Grant Williams, which I feel that's like our spirit animal, Grant Williams. We both love him so much. It's looking like Grant Williams will, who's restricted with Boston. they just traded for Chris Dapsport-Zingis.

They have Al Horford. They have Robert Williams. They've got a loaded front court. I don't think that Boston will keep him. They could. That's for sure a possibility. But it feels like there's a team out there with Capspace or that would be interested in a silent trade

that would take him off their hands. And the team that I would just like to see Grant on is the Houston Rockets. I think this because it just makes a lot of sense for him. He can get paid a lot of money, assuming all the other big name free agents

are like, thanks but no thanks to Houston. He knows the head coach very well. Great culture guy. He can come in, make friends with everybody, make everybody around him better, make life easier for everyone, execute exactly what he may wants, can be a voice,

in the locker room for EMA. Obviously, on the court, guards every position, which is something that, like, no one on that roster can do right now. I assume that EMA will want to switch everything or put lineups on the court with guys who can defend. Grant will play a ton. And I think he can make a lot of money there. And I think that he can be kind of, maybe I'm just, like, you know, being way too high

on Grant Williams. But I think that he can actually, like, turn some things around in that organization, which is like totally broken right now. Okay. I love this for a number of reasons. First of all, just the fact that you are so invested in Grant Williams getting a bag. I just can't, can't ever be against that. It also allows us to see what, like, what is Grant Williams like when you stretch him to

his full potential? Like, you give him the absolute most runway that you can. Hell yeah. I love that. I love that. I want to see what that looks like. I feel like he's just been put in the box, especially last year. So I like it.

The only reason I'm surprised by this is because the thing with Grant Williams is he exudes all of the traits that you need on a championship team. And I just feel like he is maximized when he is trying to contend. You know, he can, like you said, defend one through five. He is a great rebounder. He is just big and stocky and bumps guys and we'll hustle. Like, there's just, he does a dirty work. He does, he's, he's a hard hat, lunch fail guy and he can hit his corner threes and he can attack closeouts.

He's just, he's the perfect role player in the modern NBA. So I actually, I went through a number of different options. The Mavericks are a really good fit for him, my opinion, just because, I mean, they have, they've since draft night they've you know they've opened up that trade exception about 17 million dollars and uh they have the non-taxpayer mid-level as well but um i just i have other plans for the mavericks i have other plans for the mavericks so so do i'm sending him to cleveland i think he's a perfect thing Cleveland wow i yeah i love that that's brilliant they have their mid-level exception.

That is brilliant. So he would start at the three, I assume. He would start at the three, yeah. So you don't have to deal with the O'Carol problem. He's an excellent corner three shooter. And he also shorts up their rebounding, which was a huge issue for them in the playoffs. And he's just, he's a good presence. Like you said, that's a team that already likes each other.

And you don't necessarily want to bring anybody in who's not going to kind of continue that juju. But he is just, I mean, the guy is always smile. and he never shuts up. And I just, I really like that for a Cleveland team that is already, I mean, like, between him and Mowgli, just imagine the defensive communication as well. Oh, man. Very sexy. Do you think every day at practice, Donovan Mitchell would bring up the fact that Grant Williams

once told him he was going to make two free throws? Would that be like an everyday conversation? Or would he just say it once and then just never mention it again? Because they would be really close friends. I think he can go either way. I think it depends on Mitchell's read on him, right? Like if Grant is the kind of guy who can take it, which I think he can.

Grant Williams does not give a shit what you say about him ever. So maybe it could be the type of thing that just like he brings it up all the time and it shows you how cool he is. But if it's like one of those things that he can't laugh off, then I don't think Mitchell will bring it up as much. That's why I love the fit though, just a lot of high EQ guys. I once interviewed Grant and he told me that his greatest asset, and the Celtics was that everyone could make fun of him and he could take it.

So I think he would be good with that, that dynamic. That's a really good call by you. I love that. That would be amazing. I don't know how realistic it is or if he's, I feel like the Celtics might just bite the bullet and match if a team offered the mid-level. But who knows, maybe, because they are probably going to pay Jalen all this money. And I don't know.

That would be really fascinating, though. And I would love to see that. Phoenix suns just explode through the apron strategy. Yeah. Oh, man, Phoenix. We will not be talking about Phoenix today. Do you want to just now just drop a name of a player on this list and we can just go through it randomly? Yeah, sure.

So I just mentioned the Mavericks. This won't happen. This won't happen. I really want to see it happen. I want the Mavericks to say, we tried the Kyrie Irving thing. it didn't go that well we got to let it go I think we may be on the same page here

but continue okay Fred Bandbley would fit so well on the Dallas Mavericks he is well he's a better defender he is a much better cultural fit he's a great leader

just honestly like a really good locker room presence holds guys accountable would be an awesome fit around Luca just with his I feel like he's always been at his best when there's another point guard around him. It doesn't put too much of a playmaking burden on him. It kind of is

like the Jalen Brunson thing. He can focus on being more of a score. He's a really good shooter. And if you don't bring back Kyrie, you can throw that money at Fred. And it'll be it close to enough and he'll go to a contender.

And yeah, I don't know, I just, I love that fit. And then you have, the thing with the Mavericks is after what they did on draft night is like they could actually field a real team next year. They could really do some things. And I just look at it and I'm like, man, I really don't want you guys to go and sign the perfect role players. And then none of it matters because you have Kyrie. This is not who I had, I will say. I love it though. Love it a lot. A hundred percent agree with you. I'd much rather have Fred Van Fleet at pretty much any price than Kyrie Irving. And I think what he would do for

Or just as a complimentary piece, two-way player, super selfless, makes more sense, accentuating Luca. You can obviously stagger their minutes, but you don't really need to. They can play together as much as you want, and they'd be really awesome. And Fred can play with the ball, can play off the ball. He's done that throughout his career. I love that a lot. my Fred team before I we kind of

I tell you what my Mavericks pick was my Fred team is the Spurs and it's because first of all yeah they can afford him they can pay him a ton and I just think that Fred is just a perfect point guard for the first

three four years of Victor Wemnon Yama in San Antonio and he's just a pros pro for all the reasons that he would work in Dallas. He would work in San Antonio. And as a guy who could set up, obviously, Victor, in a lot of different ways and be really helpful on the defensive end too. As a communicator, as a high-level communicator,

he can help Kelton Johnson. He can help Devin Vassell on the offensive end, both those guys. Sohan, like, that quintet right there, when you play them, when Victor's at the five, would just be, that's like league pass cocaine for me. Like I just, I need that. So that would be really cool. And I would love to see that even though Fred is 29, I believe, and not close to the timeline

that you want. But I don't really care about timelines with someone like Victor, I would just want to be, like, worried about his development while also wanting to be competitive. and I think that Fred would check both those boxes off. So that's my Fred pick. I love that. I heard that in your, I just,

I read that in your column today, and just wants to plug your column. That's it. Appreciate you. Can I, okay, I'm sorry, I'm chopping at the bit for my Dallas pick

because I love it so much. So obviously, yeah, this has to be with them being like, thanks but no thanks to the Kyrie Irving experience. We're just going to announce you. We're going to take your cap hold off the books. Draymond Green, come on down.

Three years, $100 million. I just love it. I love everything about it. I love it. Like, I don't care about, people can talk about fit, can't shoot, how is he going to space the floor for Luca? For me, it's like, okay, you're in a playoff series and you have to go up against Luca Dantzic and Dreyman Green. Like, have fun. That's going to be terrible.

Like, that's just. the toughness, the versatility, the IQ, the vision. It's just, it would be amazing. I would love it so much. And no one would want to play Dallas. I think you'd have arguably the best defensive player in the league and arguably the best offensive player in the league.

And yeah, it would just, that would be great. So that's my Dalit, my, well, my Draymond pick is the Dallas Maverick. Oh, man, I love that. I love that so much. Because Luca, more than anything else, needs a release valve. And then let's say you bring back to White Powell. That's Lobb City right there. They have the shooters.

It's perfect. I love it. I love it. I love the idea of Luca kind of having to reinvent his game a little bit and finding a way to make it work with a guy like Dremont Green. I don't worry about the shooting. you know, Dremont has found ways to get around that for his entire career.

He's just such a smart player. Yeah. This makes me want to jump into who I want going to the Mavericks because it still works with your Dramon plan. And I think it actually, I think it really accentuates Sigs. Bruce Brown,

who has been linked with the Mavericks, basically, since, since Drap Night, since they opened up all that space. Yeah, now even more so in this situation is the guy who can space the floor. He's a really good cutter. Now you surround him not only with one all-time passer, but two.

Just really good at reading the game. So that kind of mitigates some of, I mean, he plays so well next to somebody like Draymond. He's obviously a good defender. He can handle the ball. Yeah, it just gives him, yeah, It rounds out their versatility. Apparently, he's a guy that they were looking at last season too.

Yeah, the one thing for both of us, I feel like the one issue would be your tempo and how fast you're going to play. Because like Bruce Brown likes playing fast. Dremont likes playing fast. Luca doesn't like playing fast. His teams are habitually at the bottom of the league in pace. But I feel like Dallel,

less not doesn't need to play faster, but because obviously like you look at the numbers, their half court offense, all of it with Luca on the floor is amazing, whatever, they're not doing it wrong. I think like, you know, putting your foot on the gas a little bit more with him could be interesting, particularly if slash when he gets into better shape as his career progresses. So I love it all. These are all wonderful additions for him. I would argue they are doing it wrong.

I would argue that I'm doing it wrong. Yeah, I just, yeah, I get it. Number is cool. I don't, I don't ever see these teams that just plod ever win in the playoffs. I think Luca needs this. And early in his career, the teams that he were on played with much more pace, it went down significantly, you know, as he kind of just manned more and more of the ball handling load. And like, when you look at him, he's just not having fun anymore. There's so much pressure on him.

He has to do literally everything. he needs to like get out in transition and throw some like outlet passes 80 feet you know they need to start having some fun again I want some like rookie second year Luca magic action I don't like I'm so sick of Luca Math man like he's just not that type of player he's tried to fashion himself into that guy but I don't like I just don't need that from him and I don't think the NBA needs that from him and I don't think it's really too you know the benefit of his team either I love this take

play faster Dallas. That's I think what we're trying to say. You have Josh Green who you weren't willing to give up in a Clint Capella trade. Just play faster. Also, before we move on, and I talk about Bruce Brown for a second, on this pod,

we talked about DeAndre Aiton, fake trades, and I had one sending him to the Dallas Mavericks for Javelle, Reggie Bull. Bullock and Tim Hardaway Jr. And it was reported by Mark Stein recently that the Sons and the Mavericks were talking about basically that exact same trade possibility. I think, I don't think Reggie Bullock was in. I think someone else was in.

I'm blanking on who that player. It was Rejohn Holmes. Okay, okay. Yeah, like pretty much as soon as they traded for him. Okay. Yeah. Because that construction, if you just add in Bullock, like, I don't know. I can't, I mean, it's a little, maybe too late now based on who they drafted.

but anyway, we were very close to nailing that. Just want to get that out on the record. I'm glad you brought that up. It was apparently because the Sons didn't want McGee to be included in the trade, which doesn't make remotely any sense to me. So maybe I'm reading that wrong. But it also shows you exactly where the market is for Aiden, which kind of goes back to the Collins point, too,

of like, what do you do with these types of guys at this point? Like, overpaid, somewhat versatile four or five men who essentially are elite level rollers for really good, like they play really well off of elite perimeter talent, but they're paid so much money, which is why a guy like Clint Capella, who does all those things at like an 80% level and knows who he is and doesn't try to be more than that,

has much more value than them at that point. We're in a very strange place with that type of player. So my Bruce Brown team that I want to see Bruce Brown on is the Denver Nuggets. I don't really care. I honestly think that long term, I understand the money difference with him, opting out in the maximum amount that Denver's able to pay him

versus what he can receive on the open market right now. Like, I get it. It's a lot. But I honestly feel like he will maximize his earnings as a player in Denver if he just stays in Denver for the rest of his career so long as they'll have him. Like, it's just some things are so perfect. like he makes so much sense there

he is so key and was so critical off the bench in the finals and throughout the playoffs and all season long frankly and like if he stays they are the prohibitive favorite to win it all

and if everyone stays healthy they will they will go back to back they are amazing so I just feel like what else is what what like where can he i know you just said dallas but like almost any other team in the league too it's like if they pay him the the non-taxpayer mid-level or even more than that per year like where is he going where he'll have more fun playing basketball and he'll have a better chance of winning at the highest level i don't see it and again i understand the money but like

stay in denver dude like it's um it's a it's a an amazing situation, and I just hope that they keep it rolling. A couple Walmart shares, you know. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I like it. I like it. I think one place you could have a lot of fun, Sacramento.

Okay, that's fair. I think that'd be a great fit for him. That's fair. The other alternative that I was thinking is that Utah signs him, and then at the trade deadline, they trade him back to Denver for two protected first rounders. that could work Also a good idea I'm saving one that I just

it's going to blow your mind and I love it so much so let's go to a boring one we were originally going to start with James Harden I'm kind of bored with this one already so we'll zoom through it

but I don't know like I thought long and hard about this is some like creative team and fit and I'm just like just go back to Philly like I don't really have anything fun to say here. Get the max.

Maxie will be better. Maybe PJ Tucker stays healthy. Embed stays healthy. And I don't know. You're a really good team. You have great chemistry with your teammates. Nick Nurse instead of Doc Rivers, you know, unlock some stuff. I don't know.

That's just, I'm sorry. Those are all true things. Those are all true things. What are your thoughts here? I want him to go to Houston because I'm sick of watching him in the postseason. Can we move on to the next guy now? Absolutely. Yeah, let's do that.

I want to hear your blow my mind take. Okay. Brooke Lopez. He's been linked to several teams. None of them are the one that I'm about to say. Brooke Lopez, full mid-level. Memphis Grizzlies. And here's the thought process.

Obviously, Brandon Clark Tories Achilles not going to be able to play next season. You have Tillman. You have Adams, who would probably need to go in some type of transaction for this to make any type of sense. You have Jaron Jackson Jr. You just traded for Marcus Smart. Brooke Lopez, Jaron Jackson, Jr., Marcus Smart. I'm sorry, like, are we, is this like the greatest defense of all time? The ability to double down in your strengths with rim protection.

No one is scoring at the rim with this team. I feel like to beat Denver, you have to be extremely physical, extremely huge. You have to throw multiple bodies at Nicola Yokic. And this is a recipe to do that. Now offensively, you can say whatever. you want. A lot would fall in John Morant, Desmond Bain's shoulders, I suppose, as scores. But I also think that

Brooke Lopez can shoot threes. Jan Jackson Jr. can shoot threes. And this would just be no pun intended, an absolute bear of a team to go up against in a seven game series. And it sounds insane. I understand that. And again, you'd have to take care

of Adams and move on somehow. That's not really covered here. It's not my problem. But I just think, I think like you're adding a pros pro, 35 year old, into this locker room. And why not? Like, it's, the rim protection's amazing. What do I?

Like, you have the three of the best defenders in the NBA and your team. Like, it would just be, it would just be amazing. I just, I love it a lot. So I'm half joking and half just dead serious with this one. Okay. Okay. Um, wow. Wow. I absolutely love this.

I'm also a little I'm a little flabbergasted that, I mean, it makes sense. I have so many young guys, but that even after the Marcus Smart trade, the Grizzlies have their mid-level exception. Yes. Had I known that, perhaps I would have,

like, that just completely slit my mind. And that is just, man, I feel like every thing, three months, I just go off about the Grizzlies cat management, but just once again, my God, yeah, I love this, I have no notes.

Yeah, I thought my Brooke Lopez thing was going to be awesome. Yours just blew it out of the water. I love this. No, I want to hear yours. They have to do, yeah, I mean, you'll get, but like now it's, you know, whatever. Like, wow.

I love this trade. This is my this is my favorite one so far. or not this trade, the signing. It's my favorite one so far easily. I'm proud of it. Nice work. Nice work.

Thank you. I had Lopez. I won't spend too much time on this. I really like it, but we talked about it before. I think Broke Lopez to the Thunder would be really good. He could be insurance against Chet.

They need spacing. They need rim protection. They need rebounding. They could use a bit of a veteran presence. They need to get over the salary cap floor. He's potentially, a guy that they could flip later down the line to a contender once chet is ready and if they want to like you know go back into the tank for one more season i personally think it's kind of time to just rev the engines up but it's it's an option with a guy like brook because there's going to be a ton of contenders that will want him and i don't want any of the wings if i'm the thunder i don't want to eat into any of jubb or giddy's touches you know unless it's cam johnson um like i don't want i don't want to spend that money on like a harrison barnes or a Kyle Kuzma type of guy, right?

So, yeah, that's my pick for Lopez. That's a great pick. I think that there's a roster crunch there with just the amount of guys that they have in her contract. They could make it a little tough. But I like the fit. And if that were to happen, how far do you think the Thunder could get

in the playoffs this year? Man, that's a really good question. They were so good in the back half of last season. They're awesome. I think the playoff or the playing kind of, of exposed their lack of spacing. It was just a lot of line drives to the rim that, you know, were tough shots. And this, I mean, having a guy like Lopez definitely helps mitigate that.

You assume SGA is going to be better a year. Giddy's going to be better a year. J-dub's going to be better a year. You can't assume total full progress from, you know, every single one of their young guys. But from those, like, maybe SGA is just who he was last year. That's fine. than fine. Man, they could, I think they could be like a second round out.

So you think they could win a playoff series? They could win a playoff series. Yeah. I do not disagree. It would be really funny if the team that they beat was the Phoenix Suns. Like, that would be great. No, that's, that would be very fun. And now you've talked me into this happening because I just, I just want the Thunder to be really competitive and to

actually taste the postseason. I want Shea to taste the postseason this year. They have so many just, I mean, giddy, J-dub, Chet. I'm just really fascinated to watch them all integrate on the

floor and honestly like Davis Bruton's coming in in that trade. I feel like he'll be pretty good too. So, to provide some spacing. So that's a great one. I like that a lot. Let's move on now to Chris Middleton. He'll probably go back to Milwaukee

because the NBA is boring. My team is the Indiana Pacers. Like a four-year $160 million contract or whatever. Just something totally, not exactly the max, but a lot of money. All guaranteed. And

it's again not like a perfect timeline situation there with Halliburton and Mathurin and Jaris Walker coming in as a rookie. But they just don't have any wings who can

like be a true three or go up and play stretch skill four in smaller lineups. I think he would be really cool there. it would be really fun to see how his presence would elevate everybody else and watching him play with Halliburton and watching him kind of carry an offense as a primary ball handler when Halliburton's on the bench or even the style of play that Halliburton kind of, I guess, inflicts on his team where it's like, it's so selfless and he doesn't need the ball.

to dominate and he can play with anybody. I think just as one of the more talented players out there, this would be just a really fascinating match. And I think that the Pacers could like really take up, I don't know how massive of a leap, but like they would be respectable and competitive, I think, if you added him. And he was able to stay healthy.

Yeah, I love that. Offensive infusion. He is not necessarily a guy who needs to be playing in a big city. I don't think he cares about that. I think it'd be a good culture fit. I worry a little bit about what that fourth and third year would do to their cap sheet when they have to start

thinking about Matherin and Halliburton, but I do think they might be able to get away with it. In a similar way that a team like Oklahoma or Detroit can get away with making a veteran signing this year and worry about the extensions later because they have so many young guys, they might be able to pull it off.

They probably should. It's really the guys that you're locked into are Halliburton and Matherin, at this point. Everybody else is kind of a maybe. So I like it. Yeah. I like it.

The more you talk about it, the more I'm like it's kind of perfect. Defense would be good at the same time. They get that sort of shot creation that Halliburton is still sort of working towards too. Yeah. You know, like that fourth quarter, he's definitely going to get me something.

They're both kind of, I know it's a bit of a nitpick, but they're both kind of like skinny shot creators. I feel like I almost want like a bit of a counterbalance there. But Middleton's, I mean, he's just, he's such an ace from the mid range. It doesn't even matter. And he's so good navigating screens. Him and him and Turner, be nice. They'd be pretty versatile.

Pick and roll, pick and pop attack as well. Yeah. It's a really good pick. It's really good pick. Did you have a Middleton home or? Yeah, I mean, I'll probably go back to the bucks, but I like him in Sacramento. I like him cooking. off these DeMontas ball screens.

They need some size in the perimeter. They need defense. Kind of the same reasons that I like him on the Pacers. There's just like a really elite passer there that I think he can play really well off of. Middleton off the ball

is something that, you know, it's just like he played himself into a star. It's something that he definitely knows how to do. It's something that I don't think we necessarily even saw enough in Milwaukee just because, because their offense was so simplified. Yeah,

I want him kind of in like a constellation around a really good playmaker situation. Just see what that looks like. So I love that. That was my plan B for Middleton with Sacramento. Makes a lot of sense for all the reasons. You just laid out. My Sacramento player was,

for this exercise, was Kyle Kuzma, who's basically, I don't know, Like in terms of positional necessity and whatever, like he's kind of just a younger Middleton, I guess, if you're the Sacramento Kings. Just definitely more dynamic on the defensive end and way more athletic. And I think can maybe take more advantage of the dribble handoff game a little bit with Sub bonus and assuming that they still want to play extremely fast. Kuzma makes a lot of sense there.

And that is actually where it seems he will go. If, you know, Dremont resigns in Golden State and they just have all this cap space. Like Kuzma feels like the actual target for them. And you can understand why he's like a talent upgrade on Trey Liles and Harrison Barnes assuming Barnes bounces. So that's my, I guess my king's pick is Kuzma.

Did you have a Kuzma destination? Yeah, mine's kind of strange. I mean, I get the Detroit connection. It's a little boring to me, so I'm not going to go with it. Plus, it seems like their number one target is Cam Johnson anyways. I have him going to the Clippers and a sign and trade for Eric Gordon. It's a little under. So the last I read was that Kyle Kuzmo was looking for about $30 million per year.

Okay. Cute. I would also I'm also looking for $30 million per year. You were just in the Hamptons. I think you were just fielding meetings from ESPN, the athletic, just kind of

doing your Kevin Durant free agency thing. I hope you get close to that number two. I think something closer to the low 20s is more realistic for Coosma. It brings him back to LA, which on a personal level, I'm sure he wouldn't

mind. But the clipper is just need, they need someone they can rely on as a forward. Like, it's just the Batum thing just isn't really working. The all-wing experiment is just

like, I feel like I feel like Ty Loo is so reluctant to use Covington, which is really what would unlock that? He is. Yeah, just a little, I don't know. It's just a vibe.

that I get. Yeah, I think just an infusion of scoring for them, floor spacing, tertiary scoring, get Coos back to LA, man. He belongs here. Can we do a quick, extremely

quick tangent since you brought up the clippers? I wrote this hypothetical in my column I did just, you know, scattered thoughts about I guess just like a off-season primer or what whatever. And I wrote about the Clippers. And I wrote about a consolidation trade, Norm Powell,

Marcus Morris, and a future first for Carl Anthony Towns. And I wanted to run it by you because I just, I wrote that. I came up with that idea after the Collins trade. And I guess just like generally after the past few transactions where, you know, obviously Bradley Beals was special, but even just, you know, the return they got for Jordan Poole and just how money is being treated, I guess,

around the league. And cats, a really talented player who's in his prime, changed the game forever, you know? But like the Supermax that he's, about to get is just like it's a lot of money i think it's like 49 million next year or something not next year the year after that he's about to that it'll kick in it's just it's an absolutely ridiculous contract shout out to him for getting it but with rudy with naz reed who they just uh who they just

re-upped like i just think like the clock to move cat has never been ticking louder and i don't think that a lot of teams will be like, oh yeah, I'll give up first for this because the price is just the price. And so my thought process is just basically like Steve Bomber will pay that. And you have Cat, PG and Kauai. That's pretty good.

So am I, am I crazy with that? Like, is that price like way too low or did that make sense at all? No, you're absolutely not. Can we actually, so we only had two guys left. I don't think they're two guys we really need to hit that badly. Can we just skip to what's next? Because I was thinking the exact same thing about Kat.

The Beal trade, I think, really set a precedent. Kat's contract is absolutely ridiculous. For as talent as he is on offense, he does not hit the Yoketch level in terms of consistency, knowing how to leverage all of his skills, you know, like through the course of all four courses. I think we saw that in the Denver series. So, yeah, he's a supermax player with a lot of, and there's the whole defense thing.

Like, he's a supermax player with a lot of flaws, which I think means he is getable for not a ridiculous sum of money. So I basically had this ridiculous proposal in my mind that basically every team that every player that Portland has been connected to in order to try to appease Dame should be finding a way like should basically I think every single one of those players Brooklyn should be finding a way to try to get

so that they can also go get Dame and like Spencer Dinwiddie Joe Harris both expiring next year that combines to about $39 million they have every pick in the own universe. I think they could trade for Carl Anthony Towns and also trade for Damien Lillard. Oh, okay. Yeah. You just blew my mind with that one because I was about to cut you off and be like,

oh, no, they don't have to trade Spencer. They have Ben Simmons contract. They'll just, no, that's actually very interesting. So you would have Mikhail, Dame, Kat, are you resigning Cam Johnson? I mean, you can. Does Joe Sy have this stuff? Are you just getting back into the, hey, Joe, like, actually we're spending money again situation? Like, I feel like that's worthwhile. That was always a plan. That was always a plan, wasn't it?

Like, they wanted to stay competitive. Yeah, I, that is, I mean, that's a lot of talent. It's complimentary talent. If you can keep Nick Claxton, then, like, Kat Claxton, that really works. Mm-hmm. that really protects him that would be uh I like this a lot

plus you have Dorian Finney Smith yeah this team would be very scary if that were to actually happen um so we're transitioning into a damn conversation real quick yeah is that we're doing okay great um by the way Dylan Brooks was our last

free agent um and I had him going to Portland at the full mid level um in my offseason primer I wrote a whole thing about how I would just love to see Dame stay and for them to move pieces around and move Simons, move Nurkich, re-signed Jeremy Grant,

hope you get the leap from Shaden Sharp, hope Scoot Henderson plays and looks like a rookie of the year, and just see where the ships fall, you know, re-sign Matisse Thibble, improve your defense. Dylan Brooks is the guy who I think would make sense there just because if you can add more perimeter defenders around Dame as many as you can, the better.

Like, that's kind of where my head's at right now with Dame. And maybe I'm just naive and dumb about it. And a trade is obviously coming because they just drafted someone a disposition with the third overall pick. But that's what I would like. like to see. I would like to see him stay there. I would like to see them be competitive change their identity a little

bit, get more defensive oriented instead of like I just, I don't know, like Miami Heat fans will be upset, but like I'm just not, I don't know, like if you're Portland, what do you, why would you want Tyler Hero and Duncan Robinson and picks?

Like, just keep Dame. Like, I don't know. Like, am I wrong? No, I think, I think, like, one thing we haven't really talked about enough is extending the pool of Dame candidates out from Miami. Like, I feel like we've been talking about it. Like, it's just Miami. Obviously, like, there's a report that Dame did not request to trade when he met with the Blazers front office. That is, you know, that is just the Dame story at this point.

I still think that could change. If it doesn't, then yeah, they run it back. I'm bored of that, though. Like, I just, I'm really, I, I, I, I really want to see Dame somewhere else. One thing I was going to ask you is, if you're the Sixers and you're looking at the Miami offer, like, it's part of you just like, well, Tyrese Macs is a much better young player to get back than Tyler Hero. They don't have the assets around it quite as much, but they could do like two first rounders and pick swaps with Maxi. that to me, I don't know. Like, would you rather have that or a deal centered around Hero?

I don't know, because if I'm, I don't want either. Like, if I'm Portland and I'm moving on from Dame, I want to get, whatever I get back will allow me to build around Scoot, right? Like, Scoot is my franchise player. So I don't think Maxie, I love Maxie. I don't think a Maxie Scoot backcourt is. really doing a lot for me, especially after the Lillard C.J. McCollumera. That's fair. That's fair.

So I don't know what you can get back from New Orleans. New Orleans is like a really intriguing trade partner for me because they have so much, uh, so many draft picks still, like a whole bunch. But like, I don't know what, like if they're interested in Dame at all, like I don't, Like, what players am I getting back? I just don't know how that kind of works. They're a really fascinating team, though, to think about. And Brooklyn, the first one that you brought up, like, they have all the picks.

Like, I would want all the, I would just want draft capital. And I would really love Phoenix's draft capital because I think Phoenix is going to be absolutely terrible very soon. Yeah, they might, like, give me, I can't take the pick swaps, but like, like, give me, I can't take the pick swaps. but like, or maybe I can. I don't even know if you can trade pick swaps. I'm not a cap expert. I'm sorry. But give me those first.

Like when Kevin Durant's out of the league, I want the Phoenix picks. Like give me them, please. So that would be my preferred package. But I would also if I was Portland and I was Dame and just be like, let's make this work. I think we can be like pretty good next year. And in the years to come,

I'm like, you're only 32. What if Scoot by year, two, year three, with Shaden Sharp is like all-star caliber player? Like, who knows? So I hope that that happens. My eyes are glazing over, honestly. I'm so sorry. I just, I can't do another year of this.

I just can't do it, man. Hey, that's totally fair. This is not my favorite topic of conversation. I would like for it to be resolved in some form of fashion. Unless they can actually go and get like a Siakum or an Ananoby or a cat, I mean in the Blazers context, I since like really, really worry about their defense if it's cat on the Blazers. But unless they can go and get one of those guys, I just, I really just want this experiment to end. It's time. You're like, Dame, you're a made man in Portland.

It doesn't matter what you do from here. You can request to trade yourself at this point. just let's let's get this over with like is anyone having fun anymore just do or don't you know what I mean no one's having fun um but the fact that he hasn't is just like they're not going to trade it like i just don't think it's going to happen i in my gut i just i feel that i feel like they're going to just keep everything together they want to see how it is the western conference there's like like why can't they be the kings next year you know what i mean like why can't they be the the three seed. If everyone stays healthy, like, why not?

Like, I don't think they're going to win the title because Denver's there. But, like, they could be extremely, if he, if Dame has the type of season as he just had, he stays healthy, you get something for Simons, you move on from NERC. Like, I don't know. Like, what do we? They could be good. They could. I'm not selling you. Yeah. They would have to get like the absolute right. But like, no, I don't, I don't see a world where they're like the third best team in the West. I just, I don't see it. Crazier things have happened.

Even with jaw suspension, like, I still don't. I don't know. I just feel like there's going to be a lot of teams in the way. The sun's just as much as we just like didn't love what they did. Yeah. They have three stars on their team. Yeah. Just I don't, I don't see it.

The Warriors would be back. before we get out of here, this is a little bit random, but we were talking about the heat, and one of the things I was thinking was if they don't get Dame, I feel like it'll be considered a bit of a failure of an off-season.

But one pivot I was thinking about was to take some of what they were going to offer for Dame and maybe throw the kitchen sink at think at OG and Obie. Okay, so like Hero and Picks. Yeah. Or I don't have to, I don't have the cap sheets

in front of me. I'm pretty sure Hero makes a lot more than OG right now, but I guess Toronto could throw in salary. But as those, the founding principles. You could also do Duncan, like something more centered around him too. Sure, yeah, that's true.

I think you might be on to something, honestly. Would O.G. be okay with that, though? I mean, there's a team that's kind of star for offense. I feel like he'll definitely have a bigger role. I think he fits pretty well into heat culture. Plays with Kyle again. Becomes like...

If they don't stretch Kyle Lowry, as has been reported. This is true. This is true. Becomes like the big wing defender that they didn't have throughout, like, the finals. and yeah, I think maybe I like it more for Miami. I haven't thought too, too much about the OG side of it, but I don't look at the Miami Heat starting lineup and think, oh, like, it's going to be hard to find shots in it.

Like, Butler is kind of about as deferential as they come as far as stars go. Bam's a great playmaker. Hero was the guy eating up most of his shots, honestly. Yeah, I think it's really, it's interesting. just the whole concept philosophically of pivoting like that to get a not a superstar but a very good player um at a cost and it would be really interesting to me just to see how much draft capital Miami would be willing to part with for someone like OG and obi when yeah they are star hunting and if it's not dame you might want to just keep that

powder drive for the next star, whoever that is. So that could be their thought process as well. But that's a fascinating one. Yeah, it's a tough one to actually see happening because the other end of it is just how much, you know, as much as Miami is star hunting, like the Raptors are treating Oji Ananoi like he's a star in terms of just how much, you know, like they're willing to,

it like they don't they feel it feels like they don't want to trade him unless it's like a like a brooklyn stame package or something yeah and they might get it to be honest with you like they could have played this really wisely i mean Pascal's a free agent to be Fred's probably gone Scotty's team like i don't know i feel like you just should start over if you're toronto but that's a whole that's a different whole podcast episode that we should have, frankly, in the future. We should. Yeah. Let's talk Toronto at some point. Okay. All right. Do you have anything

else before we get out of here? I do not. But this was a lovely conversation. This is fun. This was fun. My powder of takes is dry after this. I'm feeling ready. You know, I just got to create space for more sometimes. So this is good. It's good.

All right. Well, I'll talk to you next week. I'm sure a lot of this stuff will be resolved. maybe we'll already be in like, you know, as Tom Ziller put it in his new newsletter this morning, Chuck Hayes was a problem era by next week. Or we'll be anticipating Wembenyama's Summer League debut or something like that. But well, I'm sure we'll have some fun stuff to talk about. I'll talk to you next week. Thank you.

Thank you, Chris, for producing. I'll see all of you next week.