The Ringer NBA Show - How Jrue Holiday Impacts the Celtics’ Title Chances, James Harden Skipping Media Day, and the Fractured Relationship Between Damian Lillard and the Portland Trail Blazers | Real Ones

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Logan and Raja discuss the Boston Celtics landing Jrue Holiday, whether or not the move makes them the favorite in the Eastern Conference, and their thoughts on the new-look Milwaukee Bucks (2:00). Next, they briefly talk about James Harden not showing up to media day for the Philadelphia 76ers amid the ongoing feud between him and the franchise (22:00). Later, they react to NBA insider Chris Haynes’s article on Damian Lillard’s departure from Portland and how the relationship between him and the Blazers fractured on the way out (32:00). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (53:00). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I am Juliet Litman and I am one of the co-host of Ring or Dish. Ring or Dish is the podcast for all things, celebrity and entertainment. We've got you covered three days a week. So if your friends are sick of talking to you about, I don't know, celebrity real estate or the latest with the royal family or whatever Jennifer Lopez is up to, well, then you definitely should subscribe or follow Ring or Dish wherever you get your podcast. On Mondays, you'll hear from me and Amanda Dobbins on jam session. On Wednesdays, you'll hear from Erica Ramirez talking about pop culture through the lens of friendship. and friendships we see on the screen. And on Fridays, you'll get all of the tea on tea time

with Liz Kelly, Kate Hallowell and Amelia Weddemeier. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there, real ones. My day edition. Roger, I'm on the East Coast right now, and our producers are mad at me because they are all on the West Coast.

And they have to wake up really early. But I got to say, you got it really nice being a set up being here on the East Coast, I have my breakfast here. I have my breakfast. I have my, like, my coffee, have my whole vibes before the 10 o'clock pod. We usually go at noon Eastern. Roger, you got it made on the East Coast, bro.

I mean, you clear out some of that fog. I appreciate it. I mean, well, the East Coast is the best coast anyway. But as far as the potting goes, yeah, man, like I'm up. Like I said, I'm two cups of coffee deep. I don't really eat until 11. I'm on that little kind of intermittent. trying to, trying to, trying to shed a few.

But, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's really tough for these gentlemen. They were in the, they were in the meeting before you got here. And let's just say you are persona non grata this morning, my brother. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's fine. I got one, as soon as I got on the river side, I got a, uh, F you by all three.

I don't even know our Rajas said F you to me. For no reason. I take any opportunity. Any opportunity I can. bandwagon with someone else to do that, like, consider it done. All right, man. Speaking of jumping on championship bandwagons, let's talk about the Eastern Conference and a trade.

I could tell you were up early this morning. I could tell. I could tell. That's smooth. I was up. I was up. It's smooth. All right.

All right, let's go. Let's go to see the start. This media days. Let's tap the fuck in. All right. Anyway, so Drew Holiday, traded for the Boston Celtics. in the wake of the Damien Liller trade, which we will get to in the next segment.

But I want to talk about this Drew Holiday trade because it was the arms race after the initial arms race, it seemed like happened, right? Everybody over the summer was trying to get Dame. And as soon as Drew Holiday was in the deal, Drew Holiday got traded to Portland. And soon as he even,

I don't even think Drew Holiday even touched down in Portland to do a physical or anything like that. But as soon as that happened, there was an arms race to get Drew Holiday. I know the Celtics ended up getting him. Brian Winhorse had a really good piece talking about the teams that could be good for Drew Holiday. I think the Warriors were included in that. The Celtics ends up getting him. The Boston Celtics tradeaway, Robert Williams and Malcolm Brogden for Drew Holiday,

and also some picks are in there as well. Does this, some of the streets are saying this, that this makes the Celtics the favorite in the Eastern Conference. Do you believe that to be the case, Roger? No, I don't believe this definitively makes them the favorites in the East. I think it brings them up to the Milwaukee level. Because when Milwaukee swung the trade for Dame, we haven't discussed it on this part,

but I thought that made them the clear favorites in the East, whether that be fractionally or, you know, to some degree they were going to be the favorites in the East with those two. I think that this move for Drew Holiday, when you put them with Tatum and Brown and if Porzingus is healthy, you know, I think this puts them in the conversation with Milwaukee again. I don't think it makes them necessarily the favorites in the East.

I think the same. I, it's just that front court, man. I think, you know, Boston is really guard heavy. they have a lot of wings and I'm not when it comes down to it you and you see the like this is going to probably be the Eastern Conference finals

at least on paper right now right so let's look at the Eastern Conference matchup with the bucks and the Celtics now the Celtics obviously have the wings of Tatum and Brown but when you we all know this the best player in the series always wins and the best player will be honest and he happens to play in the front

court where you have a guy like Porzingas who doesn't isn't known for his defense, right? And then you have a guy like Al Horford who at a point in time was known for his defense, but is getting a little long in the tooth. And that's not somebody you probably want to rely on during big stretches of against the Janus. And you traded away Robert Williams one of your best defensive front line pieces. I don't see that being a recipe for getting over the hump if you're playing Milwaukee in the Eastern Conference. Now, if they don't, if they don't, it's a long season.

If they don't face Milwaukee, they get another, they have another path to the finals, and I think that they're good. But as of right now, if you're putting the Celtics against the bucks, I just don't see it, just based on roster construction

and what I've seen out of the front court of Boston defensively on other team. Yeah, well, I mean, if you were to get Boston and Milwaukee, it would be just a classic chess match of two contradicting types of, rosters and styles that they want to play, right? And who would be able to force the other team, you know, into their style of game? Um, more often would probably be the team that won. Obviously,

you talk about Milwaukee size and length. You're talking about across the board. You know, Chris Middleton's a big guard, big wing, Janus, uh, Brooke, Brooke Lopez, uh, Bobby Portis, you know, you've got, you've got a lot of, you got a lot of physicality and length defensively and, you know, offensively as well. And then obviously, the Celtics are more wing and perimeter oriented, if you will, and they're going to shoot a lot of threes, and sometimes that can be a challenge for Link to get out there and defend that in some capacity, right?

And so which one of those got the better of the other in that chess match would be an interesting thing to see play out? Now, when you throw Dame in the mix, and you didn't have Marcus Smart and Drew hadn't been traded for yet, I thought that was the part that would get me over the hump. Like in that type of chess match, Dane, there's really no answer for him over there in Boston. Like that's the wild card, right?

Like, you secured it, Milwaukee. Good for you. Then you go get Drew, and Drew is one of those guys that is a Swiss Army knife defensively and can do a good job on one-toes and threes given the opportunity. And so that makes it more interesting for me. And so, like, you know, there's a little bit of an antidote there now. He's not Damon Liller-Ler-Leader, but he is a good offensive player, right? Yeah, I don't mean to minimize that at all.

But I think as I'm thinking about where he would be the most valuable in a series like that, it would probably be in an answer to dame's offense. And so, I mean, it would be really, really interesting. That's why I said I thought Milwaukee had it. You know, Milwaukee with the Dane piece was a Trump card. Boom. I had them favorites in the East, whether they wanted or not favorites. And now you bring Drew in and it's going to get, it's interesting.

Like I tend to lean towards size and physicality. and things like that, especially in the playoffs. But as we've seen the last couple of years, sometimes that's not it. You talked briefly on the, we haven't been able to talk about the trade yet. It's been a week. We talked about the Janus Dame partnership briefly.

I want to dive deeper into that, right? Because everyone is talking about the picking roles and how they're going to play alongside each other. I think more than anything, this is just a great partnership because even when you have, had a Middleton and a Drew Holiday and you had all these guys surrounding Janus, it was a, I feel like every, on a night in, night out basis in the postseason, it was, who's going to,

who else is going to show up offensively to kind of help alleviate the burden on Janus in the postseason, right? Whenever, is it going to be Middleton on the night? Is it going to be Drew Holiday on the night? Like, who is going to be the one that shows up? You're not going to have that when you have Dave Willard on your team. Like, I remember a friend of the show, Kendrick Perkins always says you need a guy that's going to get a game for you. The bucks now have two of those types of guys, right? And what I mean when I say get a game for you, the one that can score 50 and take over a game and win a crucial game on the road or at home, they have two guys that can do that.

How important will that be for Janice's time in Milwaukee? And in your mind, do you think that if Yonis sees this, is like, oh, I think I can stick around for a few more years? Or is, how do you think this helps Yonis stay or how is, how is the partnership going to flourish? Well, first, let me just touch on what you, what you said. You said, Perk talks about having a guy that could get you a game. Yes, you absolutely need multiple guys that can do that. And when Milwaukee was at their best, when they were winning the championship, you didn't have to wonder where that point production was coming from to support Yannis on any given night. Chris Middleton was penciled in for it. Like he was the guy that was on the run that was

scoring the ball, having, you know, career years. And so you had a 1A and, you know, one year when Janus went out, like Chris Middleton won them the game with Janus off the floor. So you had a 1A, 1B or an A and a B, whatever, you know, you want to call that. And then last year, you know, Chris had the injuries. He wasn't himself offensively. And so a lot of people stepped up. But you were hoping on any given night that one of those guys was going to step up. up. You can't be in that situation if you want to win championships. You got to know I'm, I got Janice and, and now I can hope on who number three is, but I can't be hoping for number two. I got to know who number two is. Like I got that in the bag, one and two, and then we'll

roll the dice on number three. So I think, you know, Dame gives them that in spades. And on top of that, it would be really interesting to see is what Chris Middleton looks like coming back two years removed or a year and a half removed from the injury. Like, can he bounce back in, in, to form. Like if he comes back and looks like three quarters to four fifths of the player he was a couple years ago when they won a championship,

you've got a lot of firepower over there offensively to go along with what I talked about defensively. Sorry, let me get to the Janus part. I think if you're Janus, if I'm being fair to Janus, he's probably still looking at the situation and seeing how the experiment kind of unfolds.

Like how does this work? And that's fair. But from the outside looking in, you know, the Bucks have done everything they can to show Janus that they mean business in his window of opportunity and they will do whatever it takes to get him and that team as close to a championship as possible. Now, once we get that close, you know, we got to catch some good breaks. Obviously, health is an issue. And players got to go out there and play and produce.

But as far as what we can control as a front office and as an organization, we will, spare no expense to get you where we need to go. And so I think they've done everything they can. And I do think that that goes a long way with Janus. I always think about what stars like this post the decision era, like stars like Yannis, I think about stars, I always bring up a belucca in this as well, where players are so good that they put the pressure.

We talk about this a lot on the ruins anyway. The players are so good as they put pressure on everyone around them, including the front office to be great at all times. And I always think about the years before LeBron, you know, left Cleveland to go to Miami. And there were a lot of these trades that kind of seemed like panic trades and things like that. And like, you're trying to get an Antoine Jameson or trying to get a Shaquille O'Neal way past his prime, right? And just to say, hey, LeBron, look, we're giving you these things. We're giving you these types of players.

Don't you see us trying? And I always am weary of that with players that are, with teams that are about to do. Like I'm where I'm always looking at what the Mavericks are doing to to help Luca and I'm always looking at that for Janus. But this is completely different than the pre-decision LeBron era where Cleveland is just getting people right. And I say that to say like I'm if I could have a conversation with Janus, it's like, yo, man, Milwaukee's out here trying to get you. They got you a Hall of Fame point guard and still got trailed at the time. tires still can drop 60 on a given night, right? And it's giving you that help.

The grass ain't always greener, as we know, Roger. You know, like if you try, and I get the fact of people, of him, maybe people be in his ear or maybe him thinking like, hey, man, I might need to be in a bigger market. I might need for these types of all these different things. But if you get a Hall of Fame point guard, and that's, that shows me. and I hope it shows him that front office is legit echoing everything that you said

that not only they're legit they're going to continue to try to put people around you and not take you for granted you can't promise that other teams will do that in this league well yeah you certainly

I mean just just look around at some of your peers that are in situations you know well ask Dame Liller when he gets there what that's like do you know what I to be in a situation where for whatever reason,

I'm not throwing any shade at anyone, but for whatever reason, over the course of a entire career, you can't find the necessary help, you know, to get him over the hump. And so, I mean, he'll have a dude sitting right next to him

that can answer that question. It's, you know, it's always tough, you know, as a player when you're in it, to have great perspective. You know, this is something that I realized, you know, once I played, you're in it, you see it one way. There's very little ability.

to kind of step outside from yourself and look at it from someone else's angle or from, you know, from that 10,000 foot view. And so when you have the ability to do that, sometimes things look a lot different, you know. And so I only say that to say, when you're a player, you know, you just feel like, you know, your world and whatever you have going on is, is all that really matters. And that's not always the case. You know, there are a lot of things. There are a lot of moving parts. And there are a lot of situations to your point, Logan, that if you went and looked at someone else's, you'd have to say to yourself, well, my shit ain't that bad. And so you got to be real careful, you know, when you're, listen, I know from, I know,

I know, I'll just tell a story. Like, yeah, I'm, yeah, I ain't, not honest, but, you know, that son's team, they fired Mike D'Antonia. I didn't really love what was going on there. Terry Porter came in and, you know, Terry Porter's a great dude, man, but, but he was trying to change up everything we had going on. I wasn't the only person disgruntled. I could tell you that. I sat in cold tubs with a lot of brothers that was. not excited about what was going on. And, you know, at times you'd wonder whether it'd be better somewhere else. Well, I found out real quick.

Took my ass to Charlotte. It's not. It's not better. It's not better. Nope. It's not better at here. You know, so you got to be careful. You got to be careful about doing that.

You got to. It's tough. I was watching, I was watching, I was watching Cowboys Patriots last today. I got to the hotels watching it, right? And this was Ezekiel Elliott's, uh, turn to Dallas. And if you see, if you see the,

if you see the, uh, the score from yesterday, it tells you all you think you need to know, but there was so many like zoom in shots of Ezekiel just depressed. Just so sad about the current circumstances. He's like looking up at the Jerry world screen. Like this is a little shit.

Right? But like it's like that. Right. Like you do feel that a lot. You do feel like that. Now to some, He's a little different than Janus because, you know, Zeke didn't really fully control his destiny because of where he was in his career

versus where Janus will be when he's got a decision to make. But I would just say again, Milwaukee has done everything they can to my knowledge to continue to put you in positions. Like they fired a coach that won a championship a couple years ago because for whatever reason, they didn't think, you know, that was the answer moving forward. They've not been afraid in any capacity. They hopped in on a dame deal that no one really saw him, you know, as viable, you know, players in, got that done. They've kept, they've kept the structure and the bones of the organization basically intact.

Like, you know, Drew is a tough piece to lose, but Drew came into that once it was kind of established anyway, right? Like Drew, Drew was the piece that got him over the hump, in my opinion. But a lot of that structure was already there. And so they were able to keep a lot of those pieces. Yeah, I think that goes a long way. If I know Janice, and I shouldn't say it like that because I don't fucking know Janus. But if Janice is who he appears to be in all of these press conferences and the way he handles himself and what he seems to put stock in, if that's who he really is, then I do think this goes a long way. And Janus understands, hey, man, this is now on me and my teammates and my coaching staff because they're doing their job.

If you're Miami, how are you feeling at this moment? How do you, are you like, fuck? We could have got, if we just put one more piece, we could have got. I'm on the, I'm on the, before you get to your answer, I'm all of the mind of like, I don't think with what, with what the Blazers got for Dame from Milwaukee and what they were asking for from Miami, I don't think Miami would have been as good with Dame on the wrong. roster because they would have gutted that team that would have everything that would have made them good their depth all those things right what had to go what had to go what had to go what had to go um Portland if Miami were to be the one that did it what were they asked they wanted to give up Tyler hero they wanted to and I know you that's something that you do on paper but they didn't have the depth of a deal this is that this has been the reheats reported off or a deal centered around Tyler hero two first round picks along with a contract like Kyle Lowry or

or Duncan Robinson. We're Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald. If you get, I don't see that. Rod's like, we got action. What is, are you,

are you with that trade? Do you want that to happen? Would you, would you have been, would you have been good to part with that? We got action all day and twice on Sunday, bro. Like,

we, we're, yeah, we got action. If I, I mean, just me personally, if,

if you're telling me I give up Tyler Hero and, and or Duncan Robinson and, and Kyle Lowry. But look, both played great and some picks. Yeah, I'm probably to get Dame and pair with Jimmy Butler and Bam out of bio and whatever else is around there. Yeah, I'm probably doing that. That's probably going to get done. Are you sick to your stomach if the heat right now, though?

Absolutely sick to my stomach if I'm the heat. Well, because not only did it, you know, not only did I not get him when I was that close to getting him, but he now stands in the way of two teams were made better by the trade, right? Like two teams that we have to go through were made exponentially better by the trade. Milwaukee. Because Dame was going to the Eastern Conference. Dame was going to the Eastern Conference. He was not going to the West.

And there was an arms race to get them for that fact only, right? Because, like, he's not, they weren't going to trade them. So, he's going to trade them to the Lakers. Milwaukee and Boston are now better than they were, right? You know, so, so yes, if I'm the heat, now if the heat were like, look, that's too rich for our blood, I can disagree with you. But, but, you know, ultimately, if that's where they were, then, hey, they're probably not, you know, they're, they feel good about it. And they, they, they are one of those teams that, you know, are very particular about what they do and they feel really comfortable with some of the pieces, even if they don't look like, you know, the best pieces on paper. They feel great about their system and their development and how the fit work.

and their ability to get from point A to point B throughout the course of a season. So in the playoffs, they're viable. I got no beef with that. I'm not knocking that at all. But if you're telling me it was going to take Tyler Hero and or Duncan Robinson and Kyle Lowry, Raja?

Yeah, dog, we could let's make that happen. Yeah, it's going to be a fun season, man. It's going to be a fun season. If you have, if you, like, I'm really excited. I'm really excited to see how the Easter conference plays out and all these things. Roger, before we get to the next segment, you brought this to the chat's attention

because, you know, Kerm and Kair probably have sleep at this point. They haven't, they weren't, you know, probably able to get through to this. But when you deliver the news of James Harden a no-shill at media day to the chat, to the group, he was pulling this again. This is something that we have talked about

prepods throughout the summer and on the group chat periodically. You have thoughts, Raja. Let's get to them. What do you got to say about this, man? What's on your mind? Well, I'm not hella fired up. I'm just disappointed. I'm disappointed in James Harden.

I don't know that I've ever been a James Harden stand, but I was never a James Harden hater. And I appreciate him as a player in his skill set and so on. and so forth. But the way he's moved over the last few years, you know, it's starting to wear thin on me. I could support it, you know, once you're saying, hey, man, this is a situation not unlike Dames where I've been here for a long time.

I've given my heart and soul. You know, my career is closer to the end than it is to the beginning. Can we agree to disagree and just send me on my way, man? Can we figure this out? Here's where I'd like to go. You pull that as a guy who's invested and got as much equity in the league as James Harden. Okay. You pull it twice a situation where you forced your way to this team.

It was going to be a super team. And by most accounts from the people I knew in the situation, you weren't holding up your end of the bargain in terms of what everyone thought this was going to be. And you're kind of stepping outside of that, asking for it to be something else. And now you're pissed and you want to take your ball and go home again. Now I'm kind of looking at you a little sideways. they move you to where you want to go and you're going to talk that shit a third time?

Bro, now I'm out. Now you're, you know, again, this is a bad look. And I very rarely say that players leveraging the power that's been collectively bargained. I rarely say that it's a bad look because it is what it is. But this is a bad look.

My thing with it, and I want to premise by saying, I think that James Hardin is a phenomenal talent. one of the greatest shooting guards I've ever seen. What a basketball, especially one of the best, the guys that can really carry an offense by himself.

But I got to say, we might be the most disillusioned superstar we have in the game right now. And not only disillusioned, but there seems to be no self-awareness at all from this dude, especially over the last couple of years, right? Because on one hand, you could say this, oh, yeah, I'm about my bread. I'm about to get my money. Nope, you actually turned down a max extension.

You weren't really about that, right? Then you say someone lied to you, which there's a bit more nuance to that what happened in Philly. They couldn't talk to you because they got fine last time for tampering and trying to get you a deal. And also, and it looked very fishy to the league office. So they were trying to follow the rules. so they can get you a deal.

And then even if you did feel like you were wronged or lied to and all that stuff, you pick up your option and take away all of your leverage, right? So on all accounts, and we didn't even talk about the fact that you're really just out here, like letting down your teammates by opting in and then not showing up to camp. That's not what a leader does, straight up. It's not what a leader does. And then you expect to get traded to the place. that you want to get traded.

You want to get traded to the clippers? Come on, bro. Stop it. After you just showed your ass to the whole league, to the whole league for the third time and third straight year. Like, also, Raja, he got everything that he says that he wanted. You know how, we just talked about how the Blazers

weren't going to trade game to a Western Conference team or in division, like they were going to trade. No, man, the nets were so fed up with the shit that she were doing that they traded you in their division. They traded you miles down the road. Miles, hey man, take your ass to go ahead. A train ride. A train ride.

A trailer express. You know the fucking vibes. Shout out, Ra. But you know, like, it's just the, what I think about this, and you can do that when you're, I honestly think it's like smart to do it at any time. But if you were

going to do it, it's not when you're 33 and getting to that point where like, players are done with your shit. Like people were, the whole league is seeing what's going on right now. It's not, towards the end of your career. But that's the interesting part.

I heard Matt, I heard Matt Barnes and, uh, I think it was stacked and they, they might have had Paul Pierce and was it KG on kind of talking about this. And, you know, they were saying,

you know, the legal put up with some of this BS, you know, when you're in your prime and when you're driving ratings and you mean, you know, a certain amount of revenue. to the league, but as that starts to taper off and you're not the same person, you know, they don't, they don't give you but so many chances.

I don't have the number of chances you get. For a player like me, like there were, there were really no chances. Once I wasn't able to guard and shoot it that way I would, first second infraction. Okay, that's about it, bro. Like, and I thought I had a couple more maybe. I was wrong. They were like, nah, bro, like you ain't worth that. You're not worth that now.

sorry. And so I only say that for James because most of us think that we're still more valuable than we are. And you think that this ain't going to be the infraction where they draw the line and say, hey, man, we're not willing to put up with it anymore. You always think, now I got a little bit more rope. Be careful, my boy. Be careful because he doesn't represent the same thing. He represented the teams four years ago, three years ago. Three years ago, let's be fair. three years ago. He doesn't represent. He had a good playoff run and all of that, but you won't be getting better from here. You're not going to be getting, you know, less injured as you continue to get older. You're not going to be in, in appreciatively better shape as you get older like that. Do you know what I mean? So just, just be careful.

Roger, have you ever seen a trade request or not even a trade request? A guy calling out his GM and his boss at a club calling his boss a liar with the bottle service ladies. Have you ever seen something like that? Like, what the hell is going on? Like, what are you doing? You're acting like this is, like, this is the delusional part, though, Rajah,

because you think that's going to help you? You think that's going to, like, make the person want to, to facilitate a trade? Or if you do get a trade, is someone going to fuck with you? Like, the league sees this. We all saw this and laughed.

That's the best point. And I mean, kudos to you for getting there because I should have been there a long time ago. If I am every other team in the league looking at him now, again, I could have told you after once, now we're good. Like we'll still swing at that twice. Red flags. We're on this now? I'm good. Uh-uh.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I can't, you know, in fairness, I've said this about players in the past. When you've shown me yo ass this many times, I cannot trust you to not do that. if I roll the dice on that and it blows up in my face, I have no one to blame because you put it out there for everyone to see over and over again. And if I'm the, if I'm the one that goes for it, then I'm just not listening. All the signs were there. And for that reason, I'm out. If you show me your ass enough, I'm going to look the other way, all right?

I got time for that. Right. Let's take a quick break. We're going to talk about treatment of stars on the way out. The NBA season is almost here, so make sure you are ready for tip with Fandul, America's number one sports book. New customers get $200 in free bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. That's $200 in bonus bets. Win or lose.

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We are back. Don't release the tapes of that last thing, term. Don't release the tapes. I know you got blackmail on us. Anyways. I wanted to talk about I wanted to talk about Dame whether a little bit because we're going to get to two days

out the week soon but since we do we miss a lot of stuff that we want to get back to so we missed the Dame trade and I wanted to talk about there was this piece that Chris Haynes put out on the deal and inside the trade for Dame

to Milwaukee and I got to say. I want to preface this by saying that the piece was very much Dame Lillard and his agent's point of view. But there were a lot of tidbits nonetheless, one of which it basically tells the story of how Dame is going through this trade process and how he initially wanted to go to Miami. And we already know about the, we'll get you in a second, but we already know about the campaign that his represent the dame's representation had to try to get a trade for dame to miami and how all that all that all played out but it talks about dame's point of view on this one after the trade it didn't ever look like it was going to be miami he had a meeting uh dame did with joe cron

uh who runs basketball ops in uh in portland and basically was saying Hey man, if the Miami Heat thing doesn't work out, I'd love to come back. And Joe Cronin was like, uh-uh, we're too far gone. And there are a lot of more tidbits in that talking about how, how Dame was feeling like, hey, man, I sat these games out for my, and air quotes, calf injury to get a higher pick because, you know, Joe Cronin said that he would get a veteran and trade the pick for a, veteran and to help Dame and his championship cause and all these things like that.

Now, we're talking on this with the benefit of hindsight because Dame ended up going to Milwaukee with the generational talent. I honestly think he got the best end of this deal when it's all set it done. But my question to you, Raja, with everything that happened, because we got to remember over the summer, there was a movement to get Dan Lillard to Miami from his representation, right? his agent was talking to Miami newspapers. There was there was constant circling that Dame is trying to force his way to Miami. And I got to say that I do see it from Crohn's side where because also to add on that after that conversation that that everyone had in early September, they just cease communication again.

Both sides, the Blazers and Dame did. And Dane talks about this instance with Chris Haynes where he was working out in Portland at the Blazers facility and Cronin wouldn't even talk to him. It got to that point. Who do you feel isn't the wrong in this or is this just how a negotiation goes? Because I feel like this is just how a negotiation goes. And I think everybody is kind of culpable in this because this is how the NBA works when a trade happens. Yeah, this is classic. This is this is even bigger than the NBA. When you stay in a relationship too long and everybody gets resentful of each other,

it gets messy and people aren't talking at the end. Do you know, it just, it becomes a shit show. And so the expiration date on this, people have been calling for it for a while. But, you know, I think both parties are culpable. You know, these relationships in professional sports, sports, you know, although the fan doesn't always see it like that. And quite frankly, ownership and players don't. Like, but it is. It is a mutually beneficial relationship most of the time, right? Like, you're providing me, you know, value and you're helping my franchise,

you know, exponentially increase in value by by being this phenomenal player and winning championships or what have you. And, you know, I'm compensating you in a way that, you know, otherwise there'd really be no avenue for you to make this kind of generational wealth. And so it's a win-win, you know, and it's all good. And so, you know, when it comes down to the time when you have to part ways, you know, typically that mutually beneficial type of relationship isn't honored, if that makes sense. Like someone's asking for something that's going to, like player, for instance, is asking for something that is asking for something that is,

is going to be in their best interest, regardless of what type of situation that puts the organization in. Or organization is going to say, hey, man, it's been real. Thanks for all of this. And then boom, we're going to ship you off to Siberia for your golden years as a player instead of maybe helping you out

and sending you somewhere where you can win a championship. And that's when it gets messy, right? Because you kind of coexisted. Everyone's been happy. We're winning. Seats are packed. You're getting paid. you know, all of this.

And then it's time to part ways. And you're like, no, but this is what I want. And the team's like, well, that doesn't work for us. Or the team's like, we're sending you there. And you're like, man, don't fucking do that to me, man. I've been a good soldier, do you know? And so that's where it starts to get messy. Where that relationship at the end, everyone wants to, I say this, you know,

my wife has friends that have, have, have, you know, had relationships kind of fall apart on them. They've been marriages that, that you look at from the outside. and the two people, you know, seem to really get along and like each other. And, you know, she said to me before, like, no, this is, you know, when they go their separate ways, it's going to, like, it's going to be good. It's going to work. Like, they understand. I'm like, nope.

No, it's not. Because inevitably, one of them is going to ask for something that pushes the boundaries of what the other one thinks is acceptable in this mutually beneficial relationship, right? She's like, oh, no, no, no, no. Everyone understands. Like, the kids, everybody's going to be fine. I'm like, watch. And then one of them is like, yo. I want custody on one more day a week and all hell breaks loose.

Yep. You know, and then that shit turns into a shit storm of just ugliness. And so, you know, that's kind of... As a child or divorce, divorce, I concur. Yes. Yeah, like, and that's human nature. And so that's the same thing here. Like, that shit was a good relationship.

And then Dame is like, look, regardless of what this does to you guys, here's where I want to go. And I'm not begrudging him. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not saying that he shouldn't feel like that. I'm not saying that that was out of pocket, but it is their right to tell you, A, bro, that don't work for us. And that if it doesn't work for us,

we're not acquiescing to that. Like, that's their right. Yeah. And, you know, I also want to put into context, like when a deal is happening and an agent is, you know,

kind of trying to force their client to go somewhere, which is like, what an agent is supposed to do. Don't get it messed up. This is what it is. But I see why Cronin ceased all communications over the summer with like damage and representation

because Cronin felt, oh man, you're messing up the deal that I'm trying to make. Like, I can't, it's not helping me do my job, right? At the end of the day, Cronin don't work for Dame Willard. He works for the Portland Trailblazers.

And he has to do what is best for the Portland Trailblazers. And I think that also like, I mean, not for nothing. I think the Blazers did right by Dame at the end. Like maybe he didn't go to Miami, but like he gets to play with Janus and compete for titles. Yeah. I think so I say I like to say,

I think that like this can get repaired with Todd. Like at the end of the day, I think Kohler Hills, as well prevail, because I do want to say, like I went to go hang with the Blazers a few years ago, a couple years ago. And Joe Cronin and Dame, like, they had a really great relationship, like, starting when, when Cronin was a scout, and they were both Raider fans, you know, so they were suffering together as a Raider fan.

I know how this works, you know, but they were definitely suffering together. But, you know, they would go, Dame would go into Cronin's office and look at film and talk about the Raiders and just kind of just talk about how the game was. And then Cronin goes up the ranks and now he's head of basketball ops. And so I say all that to say, like, I do think that there's a resolution here at some point, but this is the game. This is how it is. Like, when you talk about relationships in the NBA, like, it's a business at the end of the day. Like, we can be cool, but at the end of the day, business is business. That's what it is.

That's what it's always going to be. And, well, at least that's what it always will be with people who are good at their job that are sitting in those executive seats. It's got to be about business. And that's, you know, I've talked about that before on this pod about joining a front office with the calves and trying to illuminate to some of the people in the front office how, how even though it's about business, we can make it a little bit more personal for the people that we have relationships with and respect the personal side of it without compromising the business side of it, right? But it is all about business. And so, you know, as a player, sometimes you learn that the hard way. Sometimes you learn that right when you get in the league. Sometimes you never have to experience that because it's like a fairy tale where you are

and the city loves you and your friends with everybody in the organization. And it doesn't happen until you're later, you know, in your career. But to the point you made about where he was sent and thinking that the relationship can be repaired, most relationships, you know, in the NBA can be repaired. A lot of times you see a guy leave somewhere, you know, again, he's in the middle of his career or at the end of his career. He's still in it. He can't have this 10,000 foot view of it. Same with the guy who traded him and everybody's pissed and upset. And you let a few years go by, you know, and those relationships are mended, especially in a situation like this to the point you made. He winds up in a great situation, like a phenomenal situation. Now, I'm not sure exactly what his desire was, was it to chase a championship or to live in my Miami, I tend to lean towards chase the championship. And if that was it, you know, I think you landed in, I mean, that's one of the best, like, top five places to try to achieve that goal, you know, I would say. And so, yeah.

I mean, I think that they're the favorite to win the title this year. I'm sorry. Looking on paper, I think they're definitely the favorite to come out of the Eastern Conference. I don't care what the selfies did. Well, a lot of places, a lot of places, if he wound up there, he would have tipped the scale for them, right? So I'm just looking at top five in terms of, you know, those particular destinations where if he lands with them, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can see you win in the chip. So, so yeah, man, I think, you know, I think it'll be fine. And I think Dame, you know, understands deep down, you know, that it's business.

The interesting part for me, and I don't know how teams get to this because, you know, with agents, I get why players come out and say here's where they want to go. you know, but it doesn't help, it doesn't help getting you there in, in some instances when you've, you know, lessens your leverage, honestly. Well, yeah, no, I'm saying now it's worked out for some people. So, like, I was reluctant to just flat out say that because sometimes the pressures of it, you know, and contractually you're in a situation where, you know, don't trade for me, dude. I'll never come there. And so that's where they wind up, you know what I mean?

Like, I'll never stay. So they wind up forcing their way to said place. But, you know, in situations where you don't have that leverage, I don't, I don't, I don't understand how working out in public as an individual entity, meaning the player and his can't, makes any sense. Like, if you really were trying to achieve that, like, just work behind the scenes with the team in that regard to, you know what I mean, where they can still do their job and try to leverage everything they can in return for you.

I mean, I think about to that point, I think about when, in summer 2019, when the Out of nowhere, Oklahoma City was like, we're going to rebuild. You know, like, we see these few guys that, you know, that we kind of reached the end of the road with Russell Westbrook and Paul George. And they basically, Paul George was like, at the last minute, like, I want to go to the Clippers. And they facilitated a deal off of that, right? I said Gilgis Alexander. I would help.

Shea was on the Clippers at that point. And that was a great asset, right? Like, that definitely helped. But there is a way you can do that. But I mean, with Aaron Goodwin, who's one of the best agents of all time, that's not his style. He's going to, he is, if you look at his track record throughout his career, he is a guy that will put the pressure on him and speak for his client in the press. It's happened with Dame Lillard. It has happened with Gary Payton.

It has happened throughout a lot of his client's career. Like, that's how he rolls. And that's how he's, that's how. kind of crumble, but also it didn't crumble in a bad way. He went to go play with Yannis. That's what I keep going back to. One of the things that I wanted to ask you really quickly, I was reading on the ringer

and I saw a friend of the show, Howard motherfucking Beck, wrote a piece on this superstar era and the superstar empowerment era. And basically how this this dame fiasco basically underscored the fact that this

era is kind of coming to it in. It's not coming to an end, but it's reaching a place where teams are just like, uh-uh, nah. Like, teams are trying to take back control and take back their empowerment throughout the league. And that's something I think that we've talked about throughout this podcast, just with the inevitability. We talked about that when we talked about with James Harden over the years and, you know, a few guys. Is this a symptom of that? era ending or is this is just kind of how it's always been

when it comes to trading? Like, where do you see? Is this like a change of the guard that a player can't go where he thinks where he wanted to go in the beginning? Like, where do you see that right now?

Well, I think it's probably the fact that you'll have more and more teams fighting to not have to cave to a demand is a symptom of the player empowerment movement. And, you know, we have talked about it at lengths. You know, as the CBA, you know, is currently

written, players are going to be able to flex in a way that if given into over and over again, you know, creates a monster, so to speak. So naturally, owners, general managers, whoever's in charge of the franchises are going to do their best to try to push back. once it becomes out of control. You know, and that's why I, you know, I said James Hardin for me, it's disappointing because done responsibly and not abused, I think, you know, you don't have the knee-jerk like opposite type of reaction where we got to gain some more control. But, you know, exercised with poor judgment and abused, you're going to get people saying,

hey, man, we cannot have this. Like, we have to do whatever we can. And then, you know, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but they, they extended the collective, like, they extended the CBA, right? Like, both parties decided to extend the CBA. So money is good, right? Because ultimately, that's what it's about. Money is good. But, I mean, here's another thing, though.

We'll see, though, with this new television deal. We'll see how it goes. Because, I mean, I'm just looking. I'm not, like, how the money goes from in the next few years. Well, it's good. It's good enough for them to say we need to, let's just stay where we're. at right now. And maybe, you know, that looming on the horizon had something to do with it too, right? But but but so what my point would be overall is that you're not going to be able to like

use that as a tool to regain some power. If you're the owners, not right now, right? You can't go in there and say, hey, man, these are, we're not going for that. And you guys will be locked out until until we get some leverage back, you know, on our side. So, you know, the tools that you have at your disposal are when these situations come up to have more of a backbone about it. And I do think you'll continue to see teams try to have as much backbone, you know, as they can in these situations and not just make it a practice to cave to them. We talked about this at length. I think this, from the players' perspective, it has been a curious case of too much dip on the chip for the last 10 years, you know? Just like, we think

about the Ben Simmons situation. We think about the James Hardin situation. There is a balance that you have to have with power. You know, you can only have so much of it where these teams are getting up off the bat. They're like, fuck that, especially as this era of players are getting older and they're like, we're not have, we don't have to deal with this, bro.

But like, what are we going to do? You're going to have a year and then you're going to get disgruntled again and then you're going to want to leave. Like, we're not going to try to deal with that, specifically with this group of player, right? Like, Luca goes on the market. Yeah, there's going to be concession.

made for show, you know, but it's not going to be, I think with a lot of players, I think there might have been in the play a sense of value. We're seeing that right now with James Harden. We're seeing that with the multitude of guys around the league. I am curious the next time, you know, because the league is already doing, putting in measures, right, where the load management rule is a big thing on that, right, where you're going to play these games or you're just, you know, you're not going to be considered to get, you know, these bonuses and get, you know, and all these all-NBA things and the rewards that you get for playing. You're not going to get them if you don't play a certain threshold.

It's going to be interesting to see the pendulum of power in the next five years. I think that's the biggest thing I could say about it, right? And the next CBA collective bargaining agreement, if this continues to happen because, and it's also a twofold thing, right? Because I don't want to also talk about, also like, dump on the players, because let's be honest, the league benefits from all these trade requests and the interest. and Adam Silver wants a 12 month out of the year league. He wants that.

And how do you do that? Infinite trade request. What do we talk about all summer? James Harder and Dame Lillard. That was the whole talk of the Summer League, right? So it's a twofold thing. I'm very curious to see what comes to how this comes to a head and who gets blamed for because the league is culpable in this too.

They are. And, you know, and depending on where you're sitting, you know, and the soap opera, whether you're the viewer or one of the participants in it, like you could have a completely different perspective on what it is to the league. So like, you know, some of the other owners, if Adam Silver is telling you, this is great for the league, man, we're being talking about all year round. It's going to help us when it's time to sell, you know, the TV rights again. And then you haven't been bitten by someone forcing their way out and you getting pennies on the dollar in return.

You're like, fuck yeah, it's great for the league. Let's say, keep it going. Let you become one of those teams that had to give up your superstar. for pennies on the dollar and you're going to be talking about hey man we got nip this shit in the bud hey i don't fuck you we try to give a damn what you're talking about bro slide me a first slide me the first overall pick then if it's like you know what i mean like it so so yeah it's just gonna be interesting to watch and like like anything in life there's a balance man there's a there's a spot that we should be able to get to or that in in this utopia we get to where you know it works for

everybody, man. Like, everybody's either slightly happy or they're slightly unhappy, but, you know, no one feels like they've been shitting on and we're all making money. And so it's all, it's just all of balance. They got to find it. Yeah, life all about balance. And, you know, which leads us to our next segment, man, because it's called Real One of the Week.

And I'm going to go first. I know you're not going to pick this person. So I'm just going to go first. It's more of a sympathy, real one of the week. Really sad for this person. I hope he finds greater pastors and greener pastures. I'm going to go with Devons Hey Adams of the open Las Vegas, Los Angeles Raiders. It's a tough go for my guy. He's one of the best receivers in the league.

And he is tasked and has some of the worst quarterback play in the league every weekend and week out. It's tough go for the guy. I didn't even watch the Raiders game this weekend. That was just sad. But at the last game, I watched, I saw Jimmy G. Throw it into double coverage over the middle on Devante, and he got his bell wrong. And I was like, why you got to do that, why can't you just throw it to the best receiver in the league?

Like, why can't you throw it when he's open? Why do you have to throw it in the, get him killed? And that's been every week for Devonte Adams. And I just hope he finds peace. And honestly, he's not going to find peace in less of his other team. And this is also me saying I've given up on the Oakland, Las Vegas, Los Angeles Raiders, Roger. That's where I'm at right now.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a damn shame, but I'm staying strong, brother. Man, that's depressing, bro. I don't even know. I don't even know what to do after that, but it'll allow me to attempt. I'm going to give a co-re-run of the week.

You got bear with me for a second because both of their teams lost. And if you wanted to and you didn't really, and you're not really hearing what I'm saying, you could say that it fell on both of their feet, you know, because they both made huge mistakes down the stretch that led to the loss. But it's two young NFL quarterbacks, Justin Fields and Zach Wilson. And the reason I'm giving them real ones of the week is because even in the loss,

and I have a connection to Justin Fields, Diaz quarterback coach trained Justin this summer. So I watched him work out and I got some time to talk to him and stuff like that. I don't really know Zach like that. But I know what a shell of a confident person looks like because I was one at one point in my career, someone who was capable of doing a lot of things. But circumstances around me had me second guessing myself and my ability to do what I had always done. And why I'm giving them real one of the week is because for whatever reason yesterday, it looked like two dudes went out and just said, fuck it.

You know, I'm just going to let this shit rip. I can do this. And they looked more confident, they looked more secure in who they were. And, you know, they didn't get the win, but the overall results in terms of productivity were completely different. And these were two dudes that over the last three weeks, damn, bro, you couldn't turn on a station without hearing one of these dudes getting eviscerated and their ability to play quarterback in the NFL brought into question. And so I was happy for both of them. I hope that they continue on that trend. And I would just say, again, and I almost tweeted it.

And I was like, nobody really wants to hear this shit. Like, it is amazing. It is amazing what someone empowering you and having confidence in you and trusting you will do for you in situations like that. You know, you're at a point where you could go either way because you're already down. And if you're managed and if you're babyed and if you're kind of like, you know, if you feel like that, you know, maybe you stay in that spot.

But if someone says, hey, man, just fucking. go do it bro like we we got you we're gonna build this plan around you like go rip man it's amazing what someone's someone's like ability to bounce back can be if they can find that right headspace and i appreciated that and i was happy for them dudes sucks that they both lost but i like seeing that in them just as i'd been there and i appreciated the way they both looked they had to look in their eye like they believed and for that they're both real ones of the week real shit man real shit tough go for zach man and just in the damn you You got Joe Namath out here for you.

It's tough, it was tough, fucking tough. And who knows where they, who knows where they go from here, you know? But hopefully that's the, that's a step. And they can continue to get the support, you know, and, you know, it's up from there. That's what I hope for them, man, because I, this shit, football, basketball, baseball. Like, I hate to see young players in that headspace because it's not about skill level all the time. A lot of times it's got more to do, you know, with, other shit than that. All right.

That was another edition of Real ones. We'll see you guys next week. We'll just trucking along. We're ready to go. You know, tap in. Season's starting soon. Talk to you all later. Bye.

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