The Ringer NBA Show - How Kobe and Shaq Gained Entrance to the NBA Icons Club With Jackie MacMullan | Real Ones

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

The Ringer’s Jackie MacMullan joins Logan and Raja to talk about her new podcast ‘Icons Club’ on the ‘Book of Basketball 2.0’ feed, which chronicles the brotherhood within the NBA of the best and most influential basketball players of all time. They get into the upcoming episode about Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal and tell a hell of a lot of stories from that era (0:40). Then they discuss which players from this current era of the NBA will make it into the Icons Club (36:30), before each awarding their Real One of the Week. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Jackie MacMullan Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and catch phrases into history. Listen now. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there. Real ones. Roger, our next guest is a Hall of Famer. One of the best to ever do it.

And apparently, Roger, she was born ready. You know who we got in the building? Rob. What we got in the building, Logan? An Icons club member of her own, just our own club. Just put her right there. Auntie Jackie Mack is here. Hi, Auntie Jackie.

How you doing? How are you, Logan? Hello, Mr. Bell. How are you, Josh? It's a pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Yes, it has, dear. Yes, it has. All good.

Hey, man. Roger, she was on your head at Pre-Pod. She was ready to tear your head off, dog. She was ready. She came in, locked and loaded for Thursday, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. See, you're too wet behind the ears, bro.

You still got that simileck. Like, that was love. That's only love that can be teased with one another from a lifetime of being in locker rooms and being around the vibe. Like you still wet behind the ears, Logan, that was love. Oh, okay, that's what that was.

Russia and I go way back. Way, way back. Way back. Jackie, it was the first time you met, Roger. You called me Uncle Rahra, Logan. Go ahead. Now, you're a big homie. You're a big homie.

You're not, you're not up yet. All right. Jackie, who was the first time you met, do you remember the first time? Was it a locker room when he was struggling with the Sixers trying to just make ends meet? Or was it, you know, maybe when he was with the Sun just being a superstar?

No, it was before the Sun's way before that. But I can't really tell you. I'll tell you why I remembered Raja, though. I could have forecasted he'd be in this business because, you know, and you know this, Logan, even if you are wet behind the ears, I'll go along with Raja a little bit. But you know after a bad loss or a bad day, and you know in the locker room who's going to be real with you,

who's going to tell you the truth? And that was Raja. And it didn't matter his status when he was struggling or when he was a star. He just was fairly transparent. So always appreciated that for real. I appreciate that. I, you know, it cost me sometimes. It does.

It always does. It does. But, you know, I always found an appreciation. Like, I always, I've told this before. Like, I always, for one reason or another, appreciated the job that media had to do. And I always kind of enjoyed watching them go about their. business in a locker room, you know? Like, that was always kind of fascinating to me. So the partnership for me was kind of organic. It wasn't anything I had to think about. Like I knew we had

jobs that kind of helped each other out and, you know, respect in the process. Yeah. Yeah, because not everybody gets that, which is okay. I always respect, you know, that to some people we will always be interlopers. I get that. And I try to respect that. Not everybody's interested in the dance, if you will. And that's okay. It's allowed. Jackie is talking to us, because she is, one, because she's the friend of the show, but two, because she has a new podcast series, Roger, that I've just fallen in love with called the Icons Club, where she has interviewed NBA luminaries like Dr. Jay.

Michael Jordan got an appearance on here. I didn't, you know this, Roger. Michael Jordan don't answer the phone for nobody. Don't answer the phone for nobody. Don't call nobody, none of that. And Jackie got a call. I worked for the man. I was under contract with his team,

and he lived across the hall from me at one point in Miami. And he would, and I never spoke to him. So yeah, I know how hard that is. So her latest episode is detailing the, the relationship between Kobe and Shaq throughout their run with the Lakers and also how they've been,

you know, after they've both retired and things like that. I wanted to ask you, Jackie, what was the biggest thing you learned during that, during the reporting of the piece? and the reporting of this episode that you probably didn't know about these two. Well, it's funny because

so when Kobe was young, and I covered those Laker teams, he just was really trying hard to fit in. He's 18 years old. It's not really even driving yet. It's not old enough to order a drink. He can't rent a car. But he thinks he's all that because he's Kobe, right?

He believes in himself, and he's trying to impress upon this older team that's got Shaq on it that eventually has Brian Shaw and Rick Fox and we can name all the guys on it. But he doesn't care. He's going to be Kobe and he's going to do things his way.

And of course, it was a pretty tough come down for him because they're having none of it, none of it at all. And so the story we opened with in this particular episode is Shaq used to rap on the bus. Shap had a platinum rap album. You know, Shaq Diesel.

So he would try to get everybody to freestyle on the bus and Kobe would kind of sit there and watch. So then he goes home and he starts practicing because he's like, he's only going to do it if he's going to be great at it, right? Because that's Kobe. So the next time on the bus he starts doing his rap, except for its rhymes perfectly and it's in perfect rhythm. And they're all like, yeah, no, bro.

We're calling it. Shenanigans. Nope. Uh-uh. And he's going, no, it's off the dome. And they're all like, yeah, no, you're not. So I think people forget, because Kobe was one of the greatest of all time, it became this larger than life figure, both in sports, but just culturally.

I think we all forget in the beginning, it was really hard for Kobe. Go back and look at his stats as a rookie. They're not that. I mean, do you realize he started for the West All-Star team before he started for the Lakers? So like the fans voted him in, but the coaches didn't even think he was worthy of starting. So when I look back on that whole dynamic, I think we forget sometimes. how far Kobe had to go. And, you know, he and Shaq collided later.

But remember, when he has those four airballs in the playoffs, it's Shaq that's wrapping his arms around him and saying, hey, don't worry, someday, you know, they're laughing at you now, but someday we'll be laughing at them because we're going to do this together, you know. Yeah, that's really interesting. And I want to take it back just because I didn't, I think it's talked to Jackie last time. I was listening to the pod and the Dr. J. episode. I was a first grader when they won that championship living in Chester, PA. So that was just

fantastic and kind of the backstory there. I want to ask you though, Jackie, like on that, how, how hard is it to get guys? Like, you've done this a long time. We get on here pre-pod and I'm going to tell a lot of stories. Then once the pod starts, I'll tell a lot, but not as many, you know, and then in another arena, I might not tell any. How hard is it? How fourth rate? Like, how, how easy it? How easy is it or difficult is it to get stuff out of these guys when you're doing this? Well, I think I do have the benefit of hindsight with some of them. So my experience has been when you're in it with athletes. And sometimes you have to say and write things that they don't like.

That's hard, right? That's always hard. Nobody likes that. And sometimes it puts a little strain on the relationship. But what happens is over time, and I've been doing this over 40 years, over time, then they have a chance to sit back and say, was she fair? Did I like her? Was she good at what she did? And so, you know, you mentioned Michael, Logan. I think Michael just had time to sit back and, I mean, Michael and I had our moments during his

career. We were both young. I mean, I was really young when I was covering Michael Jordan. I was in my 20s, you know, so maybe in 30s. But anyway, I think then they have a chance to say, yeah, you know what? In retrospect, I kind of like where she went with it. I didn't always agree with her, but yeah, I trusted her. And so for the older guys, for me, it's always you make the call and you say, I hope they'll call me back. Sometimes they don't, you know. And you say, okay, well, those guys decided either I'm not interested or, yeah, maybe

she wasn't my cup of tea. So thankfully, you know, like Dr. Jay is someone that I really didn't cover closely because by the time he retired, I was still pretty young. I really wasn't covering the NBA regularly. So I've only gotten to know Julius in his post life through Hall of same events, which I often go to. So I was really thrilled that he called back because I think he's probably the most underrated, one of the most underrated superstars of all time because of the way he mentored young people and because of how he revolutionized the game, the way he played the game.

And I think he gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because we get really focused on Magic and Larry, which came in the midst of him and then right after. That was just a made for television movie, right? Celtics versus Lakers, black versus white, all those things that went into it. And I think people forget that the Sixth or Celtics rivalry was every bit as good as the Lakers rivalry, maybe better because they played each other four times a year. Yeah. No, I thought it was fascinating.

And again, because I was there in Philly, my mom's from Philly. Like, I was a Dr. J fan. And you kind of touched on it in the pod. I'm sure we'll go somewhere else with this. There have been some great pros in the NBA. Like, I've been blessed to play with some of them. You know, I've admired someone from afar.

But in terms of overall grace and, like, just regleness, nobody did it like Dr. Jay. No, still to this day. I'm not a stand of many people, Jack. Like, if I saw Dr. Jay right now, I mean, I'd ask for an autograph. And, you know, it's funny that I forget, I think it's Walton that makes that point somewhere along the way in this podcast that if you want to know who the person everybody admires

the most and likes the most, just look at the amount of people that asked Dr. Jay to present them at the Hall of Fame. Like, he's in the double digits. He's just that guy. He's the one that everybody turns to, and he's the one that extended a hand. And everybody has a different way of doing that. That's sort of the premise of this entire pod is that this series is that all this information, all this player empowerment, all the things that you're seeing happening today's athletes with Steph and Durant and Janus and LeBron. All of that was created by the hard work of guys like Wilton Russell and Dr. Jay. And everybody had their own way of passing along their secrets, right?

So Dr. Jay, he'd just call you up and say, if you need anything, I'm here, you know. Jordan, less apt to do that, did it with a couple of guys, but expected them to follow up. And of course, Kobe did, getting back to Kobe, called him at all hours of the night, call him at 2 a.m., asking him all this stuff. And Jordan's lying in bed afterwards, as we note in the episode,

saying, why am I telling them all this? because, you know, Jordan was very close to the rest. Am I going to regret telling this kid all my secrets? And, you know, the answer was no. I think he derived great pleasure from it as it turned out. Yeah, it was interesting to hear about Dr. Jay's influence on the league. Obviously, we know the dunks. We know the froze.

We know Rucker Park and all those things. But like Rajah, I was pretty eye-opener was the mentorship. And, you know, we talk about, you know, how Michael Jordan mentor Kobe behind the scenes, but we don't really talk about a lot how Dr. Jay was there for, you know, Mike in a lot of ways. What was that relationship like during that time? Because that's not something that really gets publicized. We know that Mike idolized Dr. Jay, but we don't really know about the relationship. What did you learn about that relationship over the course of this reporting? Well, and so one of the things that Michael looked at when he

saw Dr. Jay, aside from all the things you just mentioned, was, all right, here's a black man, in America in the late 70s and early 80s. And he's actually selling stuff. Because remember now, back in the day, Madison Avenue was like, yeah, black athletes don't sell. I know they're not even going to take your call because we can't get our consumers to buy it. But Dr. Jay was different. That wasn't true with him.

He could sell things. He was a pitch man. But then beyond that. So he starts pitching Coca-Cola. But that's not good enough for him. Then he goes back and he buys his. own bottling plant. So he's not just a black pitchman. Now he's a black owner of a company. And he and his partner, they were one of the top minority-owned companies in the country at that time. So Michael Jordan's

looking at that and saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, I can wear Haynes underwear and I can sell Gatorade, but I want ownership. I want my own brand and all of these things. And so I think Dr. Jay paved the way for him, which Jordan is very explicit about in this series. but I just liked the way Dr. Jay extended a hand to everyone, not just, you know, you would expect him to do it with his own guys like Barclay. You know, he and Moses Marlon are like, yo, Chuck, lose those cheesy sweatsuits, man, you look stupid. You know, let's go buy you some suits, right? You'd expect him to do that for his own guys. But he extended that hand well beyond guys that were wearing a Sixers uniform. And that's why I think this club, this icons club is so important.

like Bill Russell calling up Isaiah Thomas after he throws the ball away and Bird intercepts it and they win that game. You know, Isaiah doesn't want to talk to anybody. He's telling his wife, no calls. I'm not taking any calls. And then she's like, no, no, no, you're going to take this one. He's like, I told you. She said, get on the phone. And it's Bill Russell saying to him, all right, man, you're better than this. Just get back on the horse. You're going to be okay. Keep on going. And as Isaiah says, I don't get to talk. I just listen. and then Bill Russell hangs up. So the fact that those guys will do that, Bill Russell never wore a Detroit Pistons uniform.

We all know that. But it's bigger than that, right? It's bigger than that. What a small fraternity inside of a very small fraternity. That's pretty cool. It is. That's the truth. And it's really weird how you get in.

Like we have a whole episode on guys that should be in, but maybe aren't just because the public doesn't warm up to them. or their peers don't warm up to them. Or like your guy, Tim Duncan, right? Tim Duncan, he should be the vice president of the club, but you know Tim. He tried coaching for a year. He's like, no, man, I don't want this.

You know, return to center. I'm not interested. We'd love to have you in the club, but thanks. I'm going to pass, you know, I'm not interested. So he's not in the club, not because they don't want him or that he doesn't belong because you have to want to be in the club, too. So it was interesting. I want to bring this back to,

to Shaq and Kobe really quickly. Was there, we always talk about the mutual respect with them, even when they were arguing? When do you think in your mind, when do you think it got untenable? And why would it get untenable? Because I know that it happened with, you know, with Kobe's case in 2003. But before that, it seemed like the season, they were in a cool space. What was the, what was, when did it go to the point of no return in your eyes, Jackie?

Well, I think it's pretty simple. Kobe, you know, they won championships together, but Shaq was the MVP every time. And Shaq was the Alpha. Shaq was one, one, and Kobe was trying to be one, not even one A. That's not good enough for Kobe. Kobe was alpha.

He wanted to have his own team, and he started getting better. And Shaq was still good, but Shaq was getting older. And then Jerry Bus had to make a decision. And I think near the end, too, they had this big blowout meeting that we talk about in the episode. And it was that 2003 season. And Shaw's retired. and he's scouting in Oakland.

He gets a call from Devin George and says, you better get down here. Shack's going to kill Kobe, man, like you got to get here. That's Brian Shaw, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, Brian Shaw. Yeah, right. We love B. Shaw. But anyway, so they, and what's happened at this point is,

Phil Jackson was smart. He understood that Shaq was a big guy that took a, you know, a terrible beating during the course of the season. So he used to tell Shaq, take the summer off. You don't have to, I don't even care. You don't have to, you know, just take the summer off so I can have you healthy for when it matters. Well, here's Kobe in the gym, obsessive, right?

16 hours a day or whatever the heck he was doing. And he's like, I don't get that. That isn't right. You're not doing everything you can to help us win. And the truth was the two of them never hung out together, never outside of the game. They were not buddies. They were not going to clubs together. They were not hanging out together.

So I think what happened was he thought Shaq should have been in better shape. Shaq had some injuries, felt he should have taken care of those during the offseason. And Shaq's like, this little kid, he doesn't understand. This is my team. well, it really wasn't anymore. It was one and one A, or one A and one A. It had gotten to that point. And I think that was difficult for both of them.

And then Kobe had all the power, so he finally said, it's me or him. And he had his little flirtation with the Clippers. And Jerry Busch moved Shaq along and kept Kobe. Those are two completely, to know both of them, they're two completely different people. Couldn't be any more different. Could not be any more different.

And, you know, I think what happened, is like, you know, as time passes with Kobe people for, Kobe was a prickly dude, me. Kobe was, you know, a hell of a competitor, hell of a player, all of that. Like, you know, I wound up being good friends with them, respect the hell out of him, but could be prickly. I have a question for you, Jackie, about that.

You said when he came in, you know, and all the vets are there and he wants it now, right? And we know that's not always how that works, right? And there's that kind of resentment from the older dudes you're going to pay these dues. Did they give you any insight into when, it was that as kind of a collective, they say, oh, shit, yeah, it's going to be his. Well, you know, it's funny.

I think part of the problem was they already knew that, Raja. He did that workout for Jerry West, that private workout at Englewood High School before he was drafted. And, you know, Michael Cooper, who was 40, but still in unbelievable shape and still a great defensive player. And he's checking that kid. And he's like, oh, shit, I can't stop him, you know. So I think the word was already out.

You know, I think they all knew he was going to. to get there. But he wasn't there yet. He took too many shots. You know, he wasn't collaborative. So the talent was always there. It was, can he be a good teammate? When's he going to learn how to be a good teammate? And as you know, it took Kobe a long, long time, just like it took Jordan a really long time. Some would argue Jordan never got there, right? And some would argue probably the same about Kobe. But I thought what was so interesting about this, those two guys was if you, if you started at the beginning, you would have said that who's going to be the one that's going to be the mentor down the line to all these young players? I would have put all my money on Shaq

because he was so gracious to the older players. He was a great teammate. Everybody loved playing with Shaq. You know, he got along with everybody. And yet, when it was all said and done, when Kobe's career ended, he started the Mamba Academy, started that Academy, started inviting guys like Jamal Murray and Paul George and Kawhi Leonard, really, you know, entering, like showing showing them all his secrets. And then I asked Shaq, it's the dialogue, the exchange is in the episode. So Shaq, which young kids have, you know, which young big men have come to you and asked, you know, to help you mentor him?

And the answer is none. Zero. That's fascinating. Yeah. It really is. It really is. I wonder, I mean, I'm sorry, but I just wonder out loud as you're saying that. Like, you know, Shaq's had these things with some of these bigs where Kobe didn't really, you know,

Kobe didn't say anything about guys that were. compared to him really in a negative way. Shack's always bristled and kind of had that like what he did to Dwight in the media, kind of what he's. And so I wonder if they don't approach him because that's what kind of he's put out there, you know? Well, he also, as you guys know, is a very highly visible TNT personality that has his own segment that makes fun of people, right?

So like if you're like turning on the set and you see him like, right, you know, you're like, well, F him. Why am I going to go to him? So I think that's all. part of it. But I think they're missing out. I think he has a lot to offer, not just how to handle yourself as a basketball player and how to turn left and right and how to operate in the post, but how to market yourself. I mean, think about it. The guy played, I don't know, once a lot, if I can't remember how long ago, Shaq retired, but he's everywhere. Okay, so he's everywhere,

just like Charles. Like Charles and Shaq, they've nailed it. And you'd think every young player would be interested in how to market themselves that way. And to be fair, those two guys, guys are hilarious. I mean, they are so funny. And I'm talking not just on screen, off screen. Like I went to do a story with them when I was still at ESPN on Big Men and how the death of the big man, which of course now we've had this great resurgence, which makes me very happy as a former big woman who played Center and Power Ford. Very happy to see the post. Very happy to see post-playback. But anyway, that's an aside. But when I was interviewing them, I had to fly out to Atlanta again in both for this story because we were doing it on camera.

and the stuff off camera was so damn funny. The problem is we couldn't use any of it because every other word was an explet. But they're just incredibly quick-witted and funny and real, down to earth, you know, both of them. So there's great appeal in that. And yet none of these young players, you know, he was, I'll tell you,

in that piece we did, he was really tough on Joel Embed, for instance. He didn't think Joel should be shooting threes. And I was like, Shaq, if you were, plan today, you'd be shooting threes. Because you know he would. Damn right. 100%. He wanted to be a point guard too. He had the moments in

in all-star games and things like that. Raoul, what was it like being a Shaq's teammate? What was it like being in a locker room with him? Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, like when Shaq got to Phoenix, I'll touch on the, he is hilarious. But let me first touch on, like, when he first got there in some of our conversations, you know, on the

back of the bus revolved around how I could be better. You know, I'm only, I can only assume he was doing that with other younger players. I wasn't really young, but I was a star by no means. And so he was talking to me about how his presence could help me be better. And then kind of showing me how, like, using him could make me a more effective shooter and being able to play off of a big. And when that double team comes.

And so there was a wealth of knowledge, not just about being a big, you know, just, he was helping me at the two guard position. Defensively, things that I could do to funnel people at him. We didn't have a big center at the time. So, you know, we were essentially on islands because, like, Mari was great, but he wasn't blocking shots. And so there was just a wealth of information that Shaq had for me personally. In terms of like the comedic genius that is Shaq,

I could go on and on, but I'll just tell a story. We came in one morning. I don't know. I don't know what happened the night before, but I was like cranky. I came in and everybody was like huddled around. Like what the hell is going on? Let me get over there. And they're like, Shaq's got his bone and there's a sighting of Sasquatch in

Arizona desert. Right? And I'm like, what the fuck? What are you talking about, man? But no, it is real footage of this big shadowy creature in real Phoenix desert, like kind of like, it

looks like Bigfoot. And then as we watched it, we're like, that's you, dude. He went out there and filmed that. Shack Squatch. Shack Squatch. Shack Squatch was roaming around Phoenix. He's just hilarious, though. He is so funny. Do you know what he was in Boston? And, you know, he was kind of

near the end then, although I would argue they were going to win the championship if he hadn't blown out his Achilles, because his, the plus minus numbers with him on the floor were incredible, but he unfortunately got hurt. But he was kind of bored there. He didn't know a lot of people. So he started doing these treasure hunts. He'd like take two tickets to the game and he'd leave clues and then he'd hide them somewhere like behind the Red Arbach statue or like he had the whole city looking for Celtics. Yeah, he's the best. I wrote a book with him. I had so much fun to on that book. It was really fun. I really, He was like doing that book with him. What was it? How was he? So it kind of worked out because he was in Boston and he had signed a two-year deal and they were, you know, Doc kind of read him the riot act. Like, you're not a, you know, you're not the star of this team anymore. Like Shaq, he gave him the talk, right? And Shaq's like, no, I got it. I got it. I'm going to fit in. You want to worry about me. I'm going to be great. Whatever. And so they, people are really excited about it. And he was living in a town called Sudbury, rent in a house. And I lived not far from there. So we were sitting one day and he was.

just telling me all these funny, you know, he's just being so funny. And I'm like, we should do a book. He goes, I said, I know you've done some, but like, let's do another one. Like, we'll do like your year in Boston. This will be fun. He goes, yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. He said, I'll be here two years, so we'll report it all this year. And then we'll have it come out. I'm like, yeah, let's do this. This will be fun, you know. And but what happened was then he got hurt. And then it became a parent, this was going to be it, you know. So we had to kind of speed everything up, which was not fun. but you do what you got to do to get it out. And so I was actually there with him in Orlando when he announced his retirement, you know,

because that Achilles, people were a little unfair about it, I felt. People thought he was, you know, he could have played. And he was getting shot up with, you know, cortisone. And he did everything he could. And as you guys probably remember, he had surgery following that. He had like, he was like a scar like this long on his Achilles. So, ironic, isn't it that both he and Kobe, the Achilles did them both in? Achilles.

Shaq hit me. So when Shaq got to Phoenix, I mean, I think this has been reported. I don't think I'm breaking. He, like, gifted Amari of Ferrari or a Lamborghini. Like, it was like, it was crazy. He was generous guy. Very generous.

Oh, he was. He just came in and he was like, great. And so back to like him funneling me funneling people, I might have been Kobe where I kind of, you know, I'm reluctant to say I pushed him anywhere. But like, Kobe beat me somewhere. And I'm like trailing him. and Shaq was back there.

The only other presents I've ever had like that was kind of Dekembe. And Dekembe, like, cut me one game inadvertently with his elbow as I was defending. Well, I just remember getting to the rim, getting ready to lift off to try to block shot, and then it went black. And I was like, oh, Shaq came across to block it and had clipped me with his elbow. Just, I don't even think he felt it. I went night night. I was asleep.

Wow. Yeah, he was that big and just, you know, that physical. He was amazing. Yeah. You know, you talk about the cars. When he got to the magic, he wanted to buy himself a car. He bought his dad a car, his mom a car, and he's buying a house. And his financial advisor is like, slow down.

He goes, no, I have like, whatever it was, a million and a half. And he goes, no, no, you only have $900,000. The rest of it goes to taxes. Like, let's put you on a budget. So anyway, he goes in one day to a Bentley dealership. And he sees, he's looking at these beautiful bentley's, you know. And this guy's in the store. And he goes, I'm buying that one.

So he's like, well, I'm buying two. So he bought two bentley's. The other guy was Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson was buying a Bentley. And so he says, well, I got to buy two because I'm Shaq. So he bought two Benalties, sawed them in half, and turned it into one big ass Shaq Bentley. Like, who does that? Who does that?

Where was Uncle Rome? Was Uncle Rome around, Jackie? Oh, yeah. He was always around. Jerome. Best. He's the best. Shack goes him a lot.

I'll tell you. he's the one that said to Shaq like too when Shaq first came to leave he goes you want to be Dr. Jay why don't you start dressing like him uncle Jerome uncle Jerome's also when Shaq didn't make the dream team uncle Jerome is the one that said to him you know because they took latner and Shaq's complaining and I'm blah blah blah and he said yeah but that white boy he took your he headed you your lunch not once but twice so you bet you cry oh yeah uncle Jerome didn't play man he was a cool ass cat I love Uncle Jerome Big fan.

Roger, what was it like playing against them to Shag and Kobe in the 01 finals? Because you caught them at like, you caught them at their peak. Boy, you sure did. Yeah, that was just. I mean, it's tough, right? Because, like, I had the misfortune of it, but it actually, like, it was, it made my career. So, like, I got mixed emotions about it. DeKembe was a defensive player the year that year.

And, you know, we had went through the Eastern Conference. This is a tough, tough run, but we hadn't seen anything like Shaq. And they hadn't really implemented that dislodging rule yet. It was put in right after that. Because if you go back, yeah, if you go back and watch, no, I'm sorry, the offensive, not not dislodging defensively. I'm talking about the offense, just barreling through someone's chest, like taking that elbow. Because Shaquille O'Neal, I mean, I never corroborated this, but I know it had to be his game playing because I've watched the games over and over. it looked like his game playing was just to try to fold DeKembe Matumbo in half.

DeKi DeKi was a big, big, is a big, big dude, too. A huge man. Yeah, he's a big guy. Shaq just went about his business like that. And then Kobe didn't say a single word to me the entire series. I mean, clearly I was just coming off of a 10-day, so he had no idea who I was. And I wasn't talking. But most of the people I had played against up into that point had a little bit of

chatter about him, just a little bit, you know? Or you'd hear him saying something like Kobe didn't say shit. He was just coming after you, right? Like singularly focused, trying to come after you. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense.

He had a lot to say later. Yeah, a lot to say. But it's funny. When I think about Shaq, I think about, you know, him within the hierarchy of big men, he's obviously the most dominant. But it seems like he has like a complicated relationship with, you know, the big men before him. You know, I know he's had stuff where he's talked, spoken out against Bill Walton. I also know he's spoken out detailed in your icons club episode where he, where

Kareem and him and Shaq didn't get along, at least early on. And there's some, a backstory to that, which we could get it to your podcast, talk about in your podcast. But what was his relationship with other guys? Is it something that he seeked out and was disappointed when certain big guys just didn't reciprocate? Or how did he go about trying to forge a relationship with big guys like Wilton and Bill Russell and a Kareem and Walton and all these guys? And what ended up happening with all those relationships? Well, I think Raja can tell you this. Shaq's really sensitive, like super sensitive.

He really is. He takes stuff personally. and he has a hard time, I think, when criticism comes. So in the early going, Russell was great to him. He and Russ were amazing. Russ spent a lot of time helping him talking with him about stuff on the court off. A lot about social justice because that was important to Russell and, you know, how Shaq should find his voice in that realm any way he saw fit.

So, but then, you know, he and Russ had their ups and downs too. So I think for Shaq, the Kareem thing, he really wanted to get to know. what he didn't know the backstory you're referring to is you know when they did the uh famous reboc commercial and he says don't fake the funk on the nasty don't right and and um walton and russell and and kareem and willt are all like in the secret room it's like to me it was the secret icons club you know wiltz really was probably the closest to him if you wanted to compare shack to someone i would compare him to will personality strength had other interests was not singularly focused like coby or russell um but for whatever reason, Will, you know, he was cordial to Shaq, but really wasn't, didn't go out of his

way. And Shaq wasn't the kind of guy that was going to chase after someone. Like Kobe, he tracked you down. Like, he tracked you down. Like, he would not let up with Jordan. He's calling him all, he's calling Larry Bird on the golf course. He's going down to Houston to have a chemo loggia and show him how to beat smaller guys in the post. That's just not Shaq's style. Shack's kind of singular in that just like, if you want to give me some advice, I'd love. love to hear it. I respect what you've done. I'm not chasing you, you know. Now, the thing about Shaq, like George Micon, he'd go to Minnesota. George Micon would be there every, every game. Hi, Shaq, I'm George Micon. After a while, Shaq's like, I know who you are, man. There's a drill

named after you. Like, you know, he would show his elders great respect. At fact, he paid for George Micon's funeral when George Micon passed. So he has a great regard for the history of the game. But I think for him, he's a little sensitive to criticism. And I think it probably colored his view of these other guys sometimes. And maybe he had a little hard time getting past it. I'd be interested in what you think of that, Raja. You know? No, I think you hit the nail on the head.

You know, sometimes those biggest personalities, you know, it's our mechanisms, right? We're born with them. It's the way to kind of deflect. You know, when Shaq came to us and this, I don't know that it paints the but Shaq came to us kind of in the same mindset where you were talking about with Doc. At least that's kind of what was said to us and kind of the way he approached it. And what happened was we didn't win right away, right? And so I had a front row seat to see Shaq, like internalized that.

But it wasn't on Shaq because Shaq was brought there to kind of be a, you know, a piece to help us get over the hump. But Steve was the engine and Amari was the engine and Shaq was going to help. But Shaq took all of that on himself. And so, you know, we had this, and rightfully so, like, now we got to start putting the ball into Shaq. Like, things change because Shaq was like, shit, you know, this is look, this is on me. So now I got to get us out of this. And so, you know, he approaches a lot of stuff like that.

I would love to see Shaq. And I've always said this. Of all the players that I've seen, especially Biggs, if a young Shaq with the athleticism and just the overall physical gifts that he had, plus he was brilliant. Like he, some of his past, he's really smart. If he were trained like a big today's trained, oh my God. Oh, my God. He wouldn't have put on all that weight.

Like, he put the weight on on purpose, right? Because you're banging with 200. Yeah, he's getting killed. Yeah. So, like, he wouldn't have done that. And his skill set would have just been, it would have been incredible. And he could have shot the three. There's no doubt in my mind.

No doubt. No doubt. What he, Jack, I know you can't really compare Shaq to a big of today's era. but if he were playing today's era, would he have three-point or what do you have? What are the attributes you think Shaq would have had if he would have played in this plane against Giannis and getting switched on to like all these guys?

Like, how would what happened? I just think he and Embed would have been a perfect, wouldn't it? It wouldn't be great to see he and Embed going at it because they both. And I think Joel sometimes gets a little sensitive about what's being said about him. I think they're similar in many, many ways.

And I don't think he likes that. So I apologize, Joel. But I think they have some similarities, you know? And Joel, I remember when Joel started shooting those threes, I'm like, well, this is dumb. And then I'm like, no, no, come on. Be a 21st century journalist, you know? And then you all start and realize, like, he shoots it at a really good clip. I mean, Carl Anthony Towns, who's going to tell him not to shoot threes?

Right. He looks better shooting threes and some of those. And both have the post moves of a traditional big, too. They do. They do. Yeah, this has been a great year for Carl Anthony Towns. Great year for him. It really has.

super happy about that. Who would you think of right now? We're about to get into the postseason right now. And I think, you know, as I look at, you know, the 75th anniversary season, it always makes you want to reflect. And we're having, it seems like we're almost at the end of an era, you know, bronze going into, what, year 20, year 19. And then you got Kevin who's going in, you know, he's in year 15, which is weird to consider.

and then you have Janice and you have all these guys. Who do you think when it's all said and done out of this crop will be in the Icons Club when, you know, if we have to look back in 15, 20 years, who are the ones the guys that define this era of basketball? Well, LeBron's already in, Steph's already in, and Durant's already in, in my opinion. I don't think it's even a question. And Janus, I think the way we describe him in episode eight, which has not dropped yet, I don't think. We call him an icon under construction because I think that's what he is. I have no doubt he's going to, you know, he's just a, like his maturation as a player has been so fun to watch because we know, it's this old adage, right? The great players add something new every season. And he really has. I mean, he's, you know, you worried a little bit about a shooting, not so much now. You know, he was always a much, a very underrated passer. I thought the most, one of his most underrated skill. I think he has great court.

vision. And as you guys know, you can't teach that. I don't think you can anyway. I think you either have it or you don't. So it'll be, to me, it's interesting. Does Yana stay with the Bucks his entire career and creates a dynasty there? Or like Steph Curry did? Or is he LeBron and decides, all right, I've won a couple from Milwaukee. Let me, let me go here now. Because he'll have the power to do whatever he wants. Now, you know, the thing that's interesting to me is who's next. Like, who's the next, is like John Morant what we think he is? Because that's really exciting to consider, right? Really exciting to consider. So who, like, is Luca Doncha ever going to get it right? Like for the start of the season? Never mind the end. We get that. But like, like, is someone,

is it going to occur to him like, all right, I got to be Kobe Bryant during the off season? I get to come in lean and stay lean and go and do this wire to wire. And then, you know, he's scary, isn't he? So can Embed stay healthy and really establish himself? I feel bad for him in that, you know, I heard him say the other day, what do I have to do to be the MVP? And I get why he's frustrated because in the past we always told him, hey, yeah, we wanted to vote for you, but you missed too many games. Well, he didn't. He didn't miss too many games this year. His problem is the other two guys, Janice, but Nicole Yokic, Nicole Yokic, is having a historic season, historic with no help.

His two best players didn't play the. year at all. Yeah. And I mean, at all. And so it's not that Joel didn't do any, he hasn't done anything wrong. It's just that Nicola Yokic has done so much right. So much right. He needed a little more separation between the two teams in terms of record.

Like for Joel, that's really, he needed that's like 49 and 47. Like if the Sixers were sitting in first place or second place in the east, I think he's, you know. You're probably right, Roger. And how unfair is that to him? him. Ben Simmons didn't play the whole year and then Hardin comes in and really hasn't fit the way Darrell hoped he would. So I feel for, I really feel for Joel. But Janus, he's having a historic year too. I mean, I think they're both on course to shatter the PER record for NBA players. Yolkich is just a marvel. And it's so funny because I don't think he really cares about all of it,

which is probably all the more infuriating to a guy like Joel who cares so much, you know. But Yolkich is such a beautiful player to watch. I mean, I'm glad I don't vote anymore. I would hate to have to vote this year. It's too hard. Yeah, no, it's, we're definitely in a new era of big men now, where it's all about the skilled big man. I think it's like it's all about the next evolution of Akeem Olajuwon,

like a chemolysmu, you put him in any era, he's there. You talked about it in the mid-2000s, you know, when the big man, they said it was dead, it was dead, it was dead. Was there, did you sense this rebirth of big men back then? If I were to tell you, no, it's going to just come. The big men are back. Don't worry. It's just going to come in a reinvented way.

What would you have thought? Well, I was worried for big men because, so I always used Roy Hibbert as an example. You know, Roy Hibbert was a monster, right? He got himself fit. Remember, he did the nutritionist and everything, and he was killing it. He was rocking it. And then all of a sudden, everybody's like, yeah, all our new data. So data plays a big role in this.

The data told us, well, if you get in the post, you only average 0.87. I'm making this numbers up per 100 possessions. Well, that's not a valuable shot. Let's just give it to Steph out there or Steph Jr., someone that doesn't shoot it quite as well, and he's going to get me 1.4 points per 100 possessions. So all of a sudden, Roy Hibbert, there is no place for him in the NBA. Like overnight. I always felt so bad for guys like that because now Kevin loved.

Take Kevin Love. Kevin Love in Minnesota, big, strong guy in the post. Kevin Love is a smart guy, started to realize the way the game was going and said, I'm turning myself into a stretch four. Spent the summer working on three-point shooting, made himself a different skill set, a different player, the player that could thrive and win a championship with the Cavaliers, you know? And so it's kind of adapt or die. And maybe Embed realized that, even though, I mean, I think the Sixers, I know Brett Brown encouraged him to shoot that three. Brett Brown could see what was happening. and knew that he would be a great asset inside out. Janice, I think, same thing with Mike Budenhulzer.

Mike Budenhielzer. Is there any coach in the league that loves threes more than him? Because now Mike Dantonia isn't here anymore? I don't think so. Even though they don't shoot as many, even though they don't shoot a ton, Mike Boulenhulzer gives everybody the green light. So those bids are just smart enough to understand.

It's not enough to just be in the post. And that's where DeAndre Aiton, I'm really interested to watch him, because I think he's a terrific young player, smart, funny, willing to learn. I can't believe they did not extend that contract. That was such a mistake, in my opinion, the Sons. But I'm interested to see, can he add the next level of skill that he needs to become a player

that's really, really important? I think he's got it in him. I do too. I think, you know, like, so if you say DeAndre Aton and Rudy Gober, I would tell you, I don't think Rudy Goberr can do that. Right, right. But he almost doesn't have to because he dominates so much defense. But like if you're looking at his body, I'm just saying, like, in the way they move.

Like, I think Roy could, and I would tell you, like, whether or not he needs to. I think, I don't think Rudy has that type of fluidity maybe and stuff to the way he moves. I agree. I never thought of the Kevin Love evolution on the fly. Like, in the middle of a career, that's, yeah, that's, that's difficult from, from. That is peak, too. Like, you got his peak. He's like, oh, I got to, I got to switch up.

I got to, I have to. So tell me, is he the sixth man of the year, Kevin Love? That's a good question. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. I'm throwing some Kevin Love your way. Actually, Kevin Love is in the podcast series, so he's on my mind. We just had a great interview with him, so he's kind of on my mind.

Not just for statistics either, but for what he means to a locker room of a team that's just doing things the right way. Shout out to Kobe Allman and Kevin Love. Shout out. Kobe's really, I'm really happy for him. deserved well deserved yeah and jb by the way jb he was he was on his last legs if it didn't work here i don't know he gets another head job yeah absolutely one of the uh when we talk about big man and we talked about him briefly one of the guys that i really am fascinated by in terms of big men is koreen where the numbers suggest and his play if you go back and look he there's a not even

a good argument there's an amazing great argument that he is the best player to ever play to game you know, it is what it is. You could put him up against Jordan. And if you look at, just take the names away, you'll probably take Karim's resume. But we kind of put him into the Enigma's club, not necessarily the Icons club. Was it hard to come to that decision? Because it would mean, he is a guy that is one of the faces of the league. Yeah. So he's an, he's an icon. He's an icon. He's a car carry member of both, right? Right. But the problem, he's an icon for sure. But he should be seated at the right hand of Russell, LeBron, and Jordan. And for some reason, that's where I'd put him.

But again, this goes back to how do you get in the club? And there's no, like, there's no rules on the door before you come in. It's not like walking into a clubhouse where they say, no cleats, take, you know, you got to take your hat off. It's not like that. It's kind of murky. And so some of the things are you have to be a great player. Obviously, he's that.

The sky hook, most devastating weapon ever in basketball, in my opinion, got to win championships. He did that. You want championships at every single level, right? High school college pros. Very few people can say they did that. So the total pack, social justice? Oh my gosh.

Yes. Incredible. And that probably heard him because back in the day, you make the kind of stance he makes. You don't get applauded like the dudes at the espies. Right. You know, people are like, stick to sports, be quiet. We don't want to hear from you.

You know, get death threats, things like that. So he's a big part of this empowerment movement. But here's the thing. The icons club is like every club ever known to man since the beginning of time. You have to be popular. If you want to be in the club, people have to like you. And people didn't like Corrine. Other players didn't like him so much sometimes.

Even his own teammates at times are like, why are you so rude to these fans didn't like him? Because he wouldn't give him the time a day. And GMs and coaches when it came time to, you know, look at, hey, who should be the coach of my team? No one, no one was thinking, Kareem. They're thinking magic. Magic says, I think I'd like to be a coach. And four days later, he's coaching the Lakers, you know? That didn't happen for Kareem. And so I think he's one of the most fascinating and probably misunderstood icons of all time. And yet, he brought some of that on himself, you know.

The thing is, he's so intelligent, you look at him now, you read his substack stuff, it's unbelievable. His stuff on social justice with the George Floyd and all that has been incredible. But for whatever reason, you know, he's not, like Charles never won a ring. But ask people, who would you rather have in your club? Charles or Kareem? Come on, man. I've been at the bar with Chuck. He's popular. He is popular.

Nah, it's lit. It's definitely late. Chuck's a good time. Chuck's a good time. Chuck's one of the most generous people on the face of the earth, too. For real. Real. What are defining moments of Kareem, and I guess, and I think you were there, was the game two, I think it was the 85 finals when he, the Lakers, it might have been 85 or 87,

but the Lakers. No, 85, it's 85. 85. Yep. When the Lakers get blown out at the garden, they're calling the Lakers all types of names and things like they're saying, I mean, if it was now, we would be saying, you know, Kareem's washed, he's done, it's over.

And he comes back and he says, I think he scores like, what, 37, 35 and just, it just, the game one was called the Memorial Day Massacre and then Kareem says nah, we're going to go win this title. I'm back. Yeah, it was a great moment. I know that story.

What was that like from your vantage point? Seeing Kareen. Here's one of those stories where you need the benefit of hindsight because we learn all the details after the fact, years after the fact, that after that game, Pat Raleigh drags him into a film room and he starts playing all the low lights of that game.

Because Pat Riley thinks he's getting fired. If they lose that series in 85, Pat Riley never goes down as one of the greatest coaches of all time because the Lakers are firing him. I'm telling him right now, he's getting fired. So he brags them into that film room. And Kareem usually sits in the back of the film room, but that day he's in the front row. Ramrod straight sitting in the front row because he's like, bring it on. Give it to me. I could take it.

Let me have it. And that's what he did. That's what leaders do, right? And Magic is sitting right next to him. and Riley doesn't spare any insults on either one of them. He takes them both down in front of their teammates, criticizes them all. And then Kareem says to him before game two, you know, Riley, you know how Riley is. Nobody else on the bus, no outsiders on the bus, just us.

And Kareem said, can you make an exception? I'd like my father to ride to the game with us today. And think about that. So his father walks on the bus, Kareem walks on the bus. They're sitting in the front row. Both of them sitting there sitting tall. what a great message for your team. What a great moment for your team.

This guy's going to take you where you need to go. So all that information was not available in the moment, right? Not in the moment. But when you look back on it, it was a turning point for Kareem, for the Lakers, for Pat Riley. And the other thing that I don't think he gets enough credit for is in 87. You know, he's near in the end of his career. And Riley goes to him and says, we're not featuring you anymore. We've got to feature magic.

This kid's unbelievable. It's his term. It's his time. It's his team. And Kareem's like, okay. And Kareem does his thing. But, you know, it's magic team. Magic had to earn that, right?

Because Kareem was a guy that didn't just give respect to people like that. Magic had to go. How did magic earn that? Yeah, but see, magic is a pleaser. He wants everybody to like him. And I'm talking about the players on the team to the guy that, you know, works at the dry cleaners up the street. That's just magic wants people.

He wants to be liked. He craves it. So when he was a rookie playing with Kermen, Kareem, he went and got him the paper every morning. He got Kareem his hot dog. He showed him respect. Like, that's just how, that's how magic goes. You know, magic, magic's leadership style was not like Bird or Magic, I mean, Bird or Jordan

or some of those other, or Kobe, where he's going to, you know, punch Steve Kerr or criticize a teammate or, no, magic's the opposite. Hey, come on, man, we meet you. Gets you a big hug. Come on, you're my guy. You know, Magic's the guy that makes you feel like you're the only person in the room. And I think he was, I think he could do that with Kareem, too. I think he did it with everybody.

He did do it with everyone. I played, I was at Life College, my first year out of, at a, at a FIU, trying to make the Atlanta Hawks roster going to go to vet camp with them. So I spent this summer in Atlanta working out. Magic came through one day to play pickup with us, right? Cheats. Cheats. But yeah, he cheats. He's winning everything.

But in the locker room afterwards, he was holding. court, I mean, an entire locker room of people. And some of them were like me where we didn't know him. I'm sure he knew some of the guys. But that locker room, which was Atlanta Hawks locker room, was now Magic Johnson's locker room. And it just held court for an hour. We sat around, listened to the shit talking, hung out. And that's what he did. I mean, that's what he did with my one, my first introduction to Magic was just that. You know, so I, just a few years ago, I did a, uh, Magic and Larry were doing a private thing for a, um, some kind of company. They hired the two of them to come in and like do a sit down for their,

God knows what they paid them. So anyway, they called me and said, can you be the moderator? I'm like, oh, this will be a blast. Yeah, I'll do this. So anyway, we fly. It was in Florida. I'm there an hour early.

Larry's there 45 minutes early because that's how we roll. Magic's not there. He's not there because magic's always, always late. And Larry is furious, you know? Furious. And he's like, I can't believe you. You know, we were going to keep these people waiting. But then magic walks in.

My brother. Larry and he's hugging him and oh tell me about and you know within five minutes of two of them are laughing and smiling everybody's forgotten that magic was late because he makes you feel like a million bucks it's a great great gift that urban has it is a gift one of my favorite stories i noticed they had nothing do with nothing logan but i just need to say it um here in the chief right in that episode about dr jay i don't want something oh my god i was surprised about that i have to be honest About Robert Parrish. Yeah, Robert Parrish.

That was really interesting. As he kind of details that kind of famous Larry Bird and Dr. Jay Moment. That was really interesting to me. I had never heard that either. That was new. That was new. And so just for you guys who are listening, what we're talking about is it's kind of near the end of Dr. Jay's career.

Larry's in the middle of an MVP season. He's just like, he was never better, honestly. It was probably at his peak. and they're playing the Sixers. And, you know, Dr. Jay had been his rival. And, you know, they'd always gotten along, okay, but he's just feeling it. And he is talking all sorts of smack.

You can't guard me. Why don't you retire? I'll take your sneakers right now. You can go home. I mean, really, really giving it to him. And Dr. Jay's getting mad, and he's also getting a little embarrassed, you know. So they have to be separated once.

And then the next time down, they kind of collide again. And Dr. Jay is pretty convinced that Larry's going to throw punch. So he goes to grab him. Of course, that's the famous photo of the two of them around their throat. And then what happens after that is Moses and Barclay come in and they're kind of holding, holding him and Dr. Jay's getting a couple of free punches in. Now Robert Parrish is Dr. Jay's opponent. He is Larry Bird's teammate. And he's just standing there. And so in this episode, I said, well, well, like, what about that? And he said, you know what? There's kind of an unwritten rule. So we're talking about the club again, right? Larry and Dr. Jay are in the club.

you don't do that to a guy in a club. You don't embarrass him like that. You don't. And as Robert Parris said, he deserve that whoopin. Can't you just hear him say it? He deserves that whoopin, that great low voice that I love so much about Robert. And he said, I didn't step in because I knew he wasn't going to get, you don't think if he really started hurting him. He said, but I just felt like Larry deserved that whoopin.

He crossed the line. He broke the rules of the club. I found that fascinating. I found, like, I used that word a lot, but that one was really, really. interesting. I was surprised, too. Caught me off guard. I want to get back to Magic really quickly. When we talk about how, you know, you just use that example with with Larry, where, you know, Magic just flashes that smile and everything is all good. He's had an interesting relationship with the Lakers over the last few years, right,

where he is the GM. And then, you know, he leaves under wild circumstances, then is now, you know, He still has Jeannie Buss's ear on decisions, but where do you see Magic's place? I'm going to say, I don't know if that's true anymore. I think there was some damage done the way Magic left the last time. Where do you see his relationship with the team right now? Well, he's always going to be magic. And it'd be foolish to the Lakers to turn their back on him. Foolish.

And think about it, Magic's one of the main reasons LeBron James came to L.A. he was the main recruiter there. He got him now. I think LeBron wanted to go anyway. But I think Magic played a major role in that. But I think that one was a little hard, I think, for the Lakers, the way he exited, you know, had some things to say about Rob Polinka. He's never going to say anything bad about Jeannie. They're like brother and sister.

I mean, they literally grew up together, really, for sure. So there always will be a place for Magic, always. But, you know, like if I'm the Lakers and I listen to him on Get Up or whatever. whatever show he did the other day. And he's, you know, taking us down. I'm just sort of like, where, where do you fit in all this, you know? What does Magic want right now from this? Like, does he, does he feel like an outsider with the Lakers?

No, no, no, no, no, never, never. It's just interesting to hear him talk in the way that he, because I, like, he used, I know Magic always speaks his mind, but it always seemed like he would speak more glowingly of the Lakers prior to, you know, I guess over the last decade with them losing, he wasn't as glowing, but he has always been someone that built up the Lakers. And it seems like now he's taking a lot more shots. I think he just tells the truth. I think he's like at a point in his life we're like, oh, I'm just going to call it as I see it. And you know what? You can get away with it if you're Magic Johnson. Maybe not if you're Jackie McMullen or Logan Murdoch. Maybe Roger Bell

will have to see. I don't know about that. You know what I'm saying? I just think your magic, you can. And you know, like it would be like if Larry Bird came out and had something to say about the Celtics, which of course at this point, what would you say? except for wonderful things. But it's interesting to me, if you look back, like Jordan, I don't know what connection he has with the Bulls at all, right? Because he's, you know, his loyalties are elsewhere now. He's an owner of another team.

Larry Bird, when he retired, worked briefly for the Celtics under Dave Gavitt, but then when they let Dave go, I think took that kind of personally. You know, Dave Gat was his guy, and he hasn't been connected to the Celtics at all, right? His connection was all with the Indiana Pacers. So I wonder for these, you know, Dr. Jay, again, different, right? We talked about how magnanimous is, how well, he's totally 100% connected to the Sixers. I think I saw him and Iverson the other night, didn't I at some event? So, I mean, it's interesting how these icons going forward, do they maintain the relationships they had with their former teams?

Like, I don't think Charles has been back to the Sixers in any capacity, has he? I don't know. And that's too bad, you know, that's kind of too bad, you know. I was, I mean, I have no insight into this with the magic situation. I haven't asked. But the way I read that, it's magic, that era, like, he identifies as a Laker. Like, he is a Laker. Oh, 100%.

Yeah. It's not, you're a Laker. And I think what bothers him the most is today's star, specifically as it pertains to the team right now, LeBron, A.D. I don't think he thinks they do. I think that bothers him. Oh, that's interesting. When it's successful,

When it's successful, who cares? Do you know what I mean? But when it's looking as bad as it looks now, I think that bothers him somewhere deep down. But, you know, that's just my take on it. That's interesting, yeah. Well, before we get out of here, we have to, it's our Thursday episode. So we got to do a segment, a little segment we like to call Rowan of the Week. I will go first.

My Real One of the Week is, I'm actually about to go watch him play after we wrap this podcast. But Tiger Woods, you know, it's coming back. I knew Rosel was going to do it, so I had to see. You're mean. I had to go first. I knew he was going to do it. He was going to do it for all the, all the OGs out there. He was going to do it.

But I'm going to go first. Tiger Woods, Masters. Let's see what's popping. Rosal, who's your rule in the week, sir? No. Damn it. And he was, he was even par. I was all set up.

I was good. Oh, man. I was going to do really good, too. He's one under through seven, by the way. Is he really? Yeah, he is. That's amazing. I think for him, it's going to be.

how it goes over all four days, though, right? Absolutely. Yeah. What's he look like on number three tomorrow is going to be. Right. On the 16th hole. Let's see, real ones. All right, I give the real ones to franchises near and dear to my heart.

I believe the franchise best 63 wins, Phoenix Suns. Yeah. Like, I got shout out to Joups. I'll give a shout out to everybody within the organization that's played a hand in this. I think they deserve it. I hope they win a championship and I'm excited for the Valley. So shout out to Sun. and sons fans, real ones.

I like that. Coach Monty Williams, too, my bet. Yeah, Monty, he's awesome. So I'm gonna, I was gonna do very quickly, Johnny Swim, if you haven't heard of them looking up, their new album is out, Heaven is Everywhere, is the single, the lead singer, her mom is won Donna Summer, okay?

It's a married couple. They're fantastic, but I thought I was, but if I'm gonna do an NBA, all my love goes to the Memphis Grizzlies. Oh, yes. Because, and I know Gerald Moran gets a lot of ink, but Jared Jackson, Jr., he's your defensive player of the year. Shout out to the Memphis Grizzlies. You heard of here.

They're proven that they belong. And who is scarier five years from now than them? Memphis Grizzlies. I was in town. I was in Memphis a couple of weeks ago when the nets were in town. I was reporting out a story. And man, what a basketball town Memphis is, dog. It is a special place.

When they are on, because I, John didn't play. that night and they still won and the Grizzlies were after the game they all play whoop that trick and in unison the crowd was whoop that trick, whoop! I was like, this is a beautiful environment. This is a great

environment for basketball. I want them to win a title. I hope that they win a title because if they win a title, the city of Memphis is going to be a utopian type place. It was like OKC back in the day. You know, okay C had a vibe back

the day that was unbelievable. They had a real mind. Oh, I love it. Also, I want to give a quick shout out to, you know, Rogers is not going to do it, so I'll do it. To a young D.A. Bell, who took a visit somewhere. Oh, my little, my little homie, my little homie took a little, his little, I don't know if it was official or unofficials to

MSU? He's a baby, bro. These are all unofficials, man. Okay. All right. I still want to show love to my little homie, though. So shout out to Dia Bell. Shut out.

I appreciate that. You know how hard that was for me? me, bro, you know, like, that's being in the Lions. I'm a cane fan, man. Yeah, yeah. You got to let him go where he's got to go, though. Gotta let him go. That's it.

Ati, Jackie, keep this. Raja, on back, he went to Utah a couple weeks ago, and his son took an unofficial visit to Utah. So Raja had to do the fake you sign for the, uh, for like, he had to do the fake you sign and it killed him. It's not fake. It's just different, man. Now, now, now he had to go to FSU to go on.

go to the Seminoles. And like, I don't, I can't, shout out to Roger for just going through and just, just living through this internal pain that he has to work through. So shout out to him for that. Love him make you do crazy things, bro. Oh, have fun with it. It's over before you know it. Enjoy it.

It's really a great thing. Enjoy it. I appreciate it. So that has been another edition of ruins. Thank you, Auntie Jackie, for coming on. Thanks for having me, guys. Really enjoyed it. We record Mondays and Thursdays.

But in the meantime, make sure you check out first and foremost, Make sure you check out Icons Club, the Shack and Kobe episode. What is that coming out? I think that's Friday. It's coming out Friday. You're asking the wrong person, man. I just write them. I don't know when they drop.

Make sure you check out the Shack and Kobe episode coming out soon on Icons Club. Make sure you also check out the rest of our Ringer NBA slate that is upside high. That is group chat. That is Weekends with Wazz. That is the answer. Don't have my notes in front of me, but make sure you check out. Mismatch with KOC Inverno. Make sure you check out The Void with Kevin O'Connor, fall on the void.

And then make sure you check out. Let's keep the propaganda going, Raj. I don't know if you're paying attention yet. I don't know if you're ready to do it yet, but let's check out. R2C2 with who, Roger Bell? Ballo legend, the crestside clown, C.C. Sabathia. Tiger Baby fade off the T right there. Very nice.

Middle and fairway. Oh, yes, yes. Make sure you also check out. You're a natural, dude. You're natural. Make sure you check out one more, one more. Keep the propaganda going on Black Girl song, but with who, Roger Bell. This town legend, that's the homegirl.

Miss Danielle Smith. We'll see you guys on Monday. Playing week. Hala. We ready to go.