The Ringer NBA Show - How Long Can the Wolves Survive? Plus, a Goodbye to Bill Walton and an Offseason Pulse Check. | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos discuss the Timberwolves' win over the Mavs in Game 4. They talk about what worked for the Wolves in Game 4 and whether they can continue to extend the series. Then, they talk about the passing of NBA legend Bill Walton and the impact he had on their lives and basketball in general (34:05). Lastly, they wrap up with a check-in on some NBA news, including Clippers coach Ty Lue getting a lucrative contract extension and the possibility of JJ Redick becoming the head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers (45:23). Buy tickets to our live show in Los Angeles here! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Social: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join me, Danny Kelly, along with Danny Hyfitz and Craig Horlebeck every week on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show as we prepare for the 2024 fantasy football season. We'll cover all the biggest news and topics across the league as well as whatever weird topics our listeners email us about. That's the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. Hello and welcome to group chat, the NBA podcasting version of challengers. I am Justin Bear here joining me, Big Was. Rob Mahoney. Rob didn't like that one I don't know if I signed up for that

He's categorizing our bromance In a completely different light Just now with that challenge's reference Yeah Do that make are you the Zendaya in this situation Justin? I think it's a good conversation to have Which one of us is the Tashi

I can see myself being that I can also seeing myself being the Josh O'Connor Like just the the breezy fuckboy of the group but you know I'm happy to talk this out. At least half of that is right. And I'll let you figure out which half. Justin Barrier is one sick ombre.

I'll tell you that much, boy. Okay. Have you guys seen Challenger's? Of course. Come on. Yeah, I've seen it. Okay. Yeah.

I don't know. No spoilers, but I guess this metaphor gets pretty weird pretty quickly. Yeah. Just never die. Just a little. The trailer. Anyway. Hey, we've got a live show coming up here.

June 18th, Elray Theater, get your tickets to ringer.com slash events. I don't even need notes at this point. We've been doing so many promos for, including a little video they put out on Instagram yesterday, which none of us were definitely clearly reading off a paper while doing that. I don't know what you're talking about. Rob's performance was pretty good. Like you could see me and Wise just like go to the Elray Theater. And Rob kind of gave the pizzazz there.

I appreciate that. Yeah, I actually have a full teleprompter set up in here. So it's, you know, we're, we're streets ahead. Okay. Our friend Chris Ryan announced that he will be joining us there. Might have some other special guests. Who knows? Anyone could pop up.

Could it also be Kyle Mann? Probably, but could it be anyone else? Who knows? All right. Let's get to today's docket. One of the many off days I think we'll be having until we finally get the finals matchup. But Western Conference finals still ongoing. Rob, you're coming straight off the road.

in Dallas a few hours ago. You're now back in the bay. First of all, how are you feeling? Exhausted. I've played four hard-fought Western Conference Finals games. So now I'm recovering like everyone. With a neck sprain, with a possible concussion, we're all taking our bumps

and bruises out there, players and media alike. Okay. Well, I want to talk about some takeaways going into game four here, some things that maybe either team can do. But like just from the road, any just general sense of the series, any like sites and sounds that you want to pass along here?

I will say for a team that was down 3-0, I've been very impressed with how loose the wolves have been, and they were clearly disappointed after Game 3, understandably. So, you know, with the way that game kind of devolves for them down the stretch, but they were pretty loose after that game, and they were definitely loose after Game 4, cracking jokes, doing bits on the podium, understandably confident, given how good that team is,

but for a group of guys that, by and large, has not been here before, I think it's pretty impressive the way that nobody is really hanging their head and they're really kind of charging forward and seeing what they can do with this thing. Yeah, I'm old enough to remember a conference finals last year where the favorite went down 03 and managed to push it to 7. So, like, I don't think they should lose all hope. They've been right in every single one of these games. They lost the first three by 13 total points.

It's just they've just kind of been out-executed down the stretch of these games. So there's no reason for them to think, oh, we can't beat these guys. It's not the Pacers versus the Celtics for crying out loud. They've played incredible ball the entire postseason. And so, you know, I'm happy that they didn't go down like some dogs or some suckers and actually showed some art. It's that was really cool to see.

Yeah. And Justin, I think there's enough reason to think that the matchup is changing slightly to. Derek Lively's absence or at least status being up in the air definitely changes the facts on the ground on the floor. And Kat being a lot. a positive presence is a pretty huge deal. Yeah, so I think they have two things in the big picture going for them.

One, they have home court advantage, which I think most teams would benefit from, unfortunately, the wolves seem to only play well on the road since the Nugget series. Two, it's just like it's aunt having like the buoyancy to like kind of not care about these things. I think you saw him being miced up previous to the game, game four, and he was just like talking his shit. And afterward, he was talking his shit again. And during the game, he was talking his shit. So he has that sort of effect on these guys.

But like to see towns step up in that game for finally, well, I guess it was kind of more of a mixed bag for towns. Offensively hitting some shots finally, Rob, but also the foul trouble and all the townsiness, which we can get into. So like, yeah. The goddamn. Where are we? Just damn, they took me out, bro. I will say this, though, about that specific foul that followed him out in that game. Luca did launch his ass into towns in a way that like is annoying.

And I hate that they're calling that even though they were supposed to not call it. But, you know, he leaned a little bit too, and Luke is going to get you that on that call. I thought that was kind of a bogus call. But the two offensive fouls that preceded it, including contorting himself in a way to elbow PJ Washington in the face on a shot somehow, that's a different story. Is he blacking out on things like that? It seems like when things are going well, he's just playing with so much emotion that he just completely loses side of reality. It's, I don't know what's going through his head.

But look, he just does lose control on those. drives and attempts to put the ball on the floor sometimes. There's a reason why the Mavs game plan in the series has basically been anything but threes. Let him have, like, charge him off the line. We're going to try to defend him as best we can in the post. Don't let him take threes. And he's missed a lot of his threes in the series, which has helped their, you know,

their gambit somewhat. But to his credit, he was able to push through the foul trouble, hit those two huge threes down the stretch and play almost eight minutes with five fouls before ultimately fouling out. eight minutes that the wolves desperately needed from him. So I thought he really acclimated himself well with the frustrations of how he was playing. He was having an awful series overall, couldn't shoot the ball, and then all of a sudden, everything started kind of coming together for him, even if it came together at a time where he

was also making some very characteristic cat mistakes. Yeah, because things have, in the prior three games, things started falling apart for the wolves down the stretch, and it felt like, oh my God, is this really about to happen again for the fourth time in a row? It was those Carl Anthony Towns buckets, those three-pointers in particular, they finally put them up by like six points that gave them the breathing room that they needed. It's just, you know, when you're supposed to be playing no three-pointer defense and you just lunge at a guy, not only do you allow a freaking three,

but you foul the guy on it, like, holy moly. But they survived, and they got to do it three more times. Can I say one thing about the fourth quarters for these games? Justin, you mentioned the wolves not faring so well. home in these playoffs overall. For my eyes and ears, the crowds were amazing, honestly, in both venues. But in Minneapolis, I thought they were great. And the difference in the hype videos going into the fourth quarter could not be more

stark in the sense that the Mavs, look, the Mads do a lot of good, a lot of good work on the Jumbotron. It's a pretty stock media day, Kyrie Irving, being like, come on, fans. Let's go. Let's go. Get the energy up. The wolves come in into the fourth quarter with a close. clip of like 19 year old Kevin

Garnett furiously screaming at the camera, pounding his chest, imploring people to desperately scream. And that place gets fucking hopping at that video every single time and I love it. Since we're talking about production value for some of these arenas, can you

explain to me what is on the court when the Mavs go to that black, where they wear the black jersey and they have the matching court? What is in the pink because it looks like it might be some sort of guitar or like a guy wearing a hat? But it's like very amorphous and hard to figure out.

I don't know exactly the design you're talking about, but that whole black colorway, I believe, was a collab with Leon Bridges. So there's probably some kind of music motif in there. I would assume that must be a guitar or something. Okay. I like those jerseys, but I have no idea what's going on

with just the design of the court there. But I guess to get back to the series, yeah, I mean, it's such a stark kind of turseys. turn around from last series with Kat, where it felt like he validated everything about him and him being on this team. Like, we're going to have so many discussions, even in the offseason, regardless of how they close out this series about like the future of the wolves, in large part,

just because of the ownership and whatnot. But like, I thought that series against the nugget was a clear sign. Like, this is why you need Kat. Right. He was awesome offensively, but he also had the heft to like stand, Yokic up and allowed all the other guys to come in and swipe down and crowd around him. But in this series, it's almost the complete opposite where I'm like, God damn, we're back to the same old cat, like, do they need somebody else? Do they need more playmaking in that spot if he's not going to even hit his damn shots?

And so, I don't know, in a lot of ways, it's just becoming kind of a litmus test for Kat in this series. I wonder if that decision will be made for them. Like, I don't know that teams are going to be just thirsty to get Carl Anthony Downs in their building this summer. It doesn't feel

like it. So they might have to bring him back out of necessity. Now, the salary implications, the salary cap implications of having Rudy on a damn their $50 million deal, cat at his $55 million, then Aunt Edwards' extension finally kicking in like this, they're already paying Nas read about $20 million per. Like, this thing is going to get really expensive really soon. So you wonder, you know, these small market teams are always crying about their salary situations.

And so you wonder if they'll be able to pay. these guys, but I don't know that unloading Carl Towns is this like super easy thing to do this summer. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I also just don't see anything in these playoffs that says he's all that expendable. You know, the matchup with the Nuggets is not going anywhere. You're going to have to fight through them again at some point, most likely. And even though this has been a tough series for Kat, I don't even think it's necessarily a bad matchup for him.

I just think he's played poorly. And so you still want him to unlock whatever's going to go well for you in this series. And you still need him to unlock. to unlock some of the spacing and some of the dynamism and really the size that makes the wolf's collective identity. Like if you trade cat for, say, like a wing who can kind of play some four, I just think you change your team in a way that is getting so far away from the number one defense that got you here.

And we can debate as to whether that's valuable or not. But I put a lot of stock in what they've been able to do with this group. Yeah, fair. I think it's ultimately more of an ant conversation. How quickly can he develop the playmaking side of it in the decision-making side of it in order to go toe to toe with Luca at the end of some of these games.

Because as you guys have mentioned, like, we could talk about a lot of different elements of this series. It's been close practically every damn near game. I think the margin is eight points between these games. Like there's a one point decided one of these games. And Nasreid missed three that looked good coming out of his hand, decided one of these games.

So it has been desperately close. But there is kind of like a graph where the two lines are going in opposite directions where like the cap and also like, the pain tolerance for some of the wolves ownership, whoever that might be, is going straight down, where Ant's progress and trajectory is going straight up. And there's going to be a point where they intersect. And so Ant is going to have to get there before they have to abort on some of these guys that they've built. Because a lot of the teams they're going to have to compete against are also younger and up and coming. Oklahoma City first and foremost. What if Denver actually invests in

like two role players that come off the bench this off season? So like the West is going to be fearsome for a while. And so I think ultimately it's like, aunt, like can Ant step up? And I think last game he did enough of that stuff. A lot of those threes that Kat hit in particular came off of Anne's playmaking. Yeah, that one in the corner, you know, there's a clip making the rounds of

Kyle Anderson screening Cat into the corner, pointing him into the corner, and then just drink to Anthony Edwards to pass it to Kat over his head. Obviously incredible play by Kyle Anderson and great orchestration. But that exact pass more or less,

Ant on the strong side with the ball. The Mads are completely tilted in his direction and crowding the lane. And they leave that weak side corner pretty open. And they are daring him or whoever has the ball. Conley in some cases, Kat in some cases, to make that pass over Luca Donchich who's guarding in that corner, which is, you know, you may think of as, oh, you can get the ball past Luca. That dude's a legit six, seven and is going after anything in his vicinity right now. Sometimes it's Derek Jones in that spot.

And we all know he can leap and catch that ball at a midair. And so making that exact read isn't always so hard. Making the pass is really difficult. And so we're seeing him get into the cat and mouse, snake the pick and roll, kind of find those little pockets within the defense. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. So I'm seeing it get to the lobs.

Sometimes I'm seeing it to the layup. It's noticeable that whenever, especially Gafford and lively are in the game, he has to double clutch almost everything just to get it on the rim over and around those guys. There's just a lot he has to navigate right now. And I think he's, you know, it's an up and down process to say the least. But he is showing growth as we get to game four.

And that's what you want to see if you're the wolves is given enough cracks at this thing. He's getting better at it. And that's meaningful. Yeah, I think his playmaking is already taking a step forward. I don't know that he's ever going to be Luca or James Hardin or LeBron or something like that in terms of finding people. Like, I don't know. There are levels to this stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know that he's going to be like that. But the steps that he's taken have been encouraging. And in fact, in this series, it's kind of felt sometimes that he's been overpassing, over-emphasizing the getting off the ball faster. To me, what it ultimately boils down to, like, this guy's already a damn good mid-range shooter, which is just crazy to me that he has that shot down pat. I think he's finishing and getting to the cup and actually getting fouled.

That's what's going to ultimately take him to the stratosphere of, okay, like, every single game, he's putting pressure on the defense. to now that he's got this playmaking, and if they put some competent shooters around him, then, you know, that thing could get rolling. But for me, I think the passing is, I've seen enough where it's just like, all right, his reputation coming out of college

was like this tunnel vision gunner type of guy. You know, basically Michael Porter, Jr. type of level of not getting off the ball, right? He's made so many strides in the opposite direction of that. And so that's got to be superheartening. I still think just individually, this team is going to go as far as its ability to take over big games

against the best teams is willing to take them. And that's tough when the burden on him defensively is now increasing if they're going to look to him to be the primary defender on Luca Donchich. Or we can slow-mo guard Luca Donchich. He did a pretty decent job. I thought he was as good as anybody in this series. Luca looks pissed trying to get by him every time.

They close with him in that game. I think he has the size. also has that kind of headiness that they tend to look for with Mike Conley. But like if you're getting that from slow-mo, if he's making the connection, the connective plays out there, I think it's important. But I do want to talk about like,

and what he's been able to do on Luke and how much that matters, Rob. So I think it was five for 15. Luca was guarding him in game four. Those stats are kind of wonky because it really depends on how you're logging what is a clear-cut defensive possession on one player. But I think overall, when I looked it up on NBA.com today in this series,

eight for 23 Luca is with Ant guarding him. How much do you think like the difference it can make with Ant guarding Luca primarily as opposed to what McDaniels was doing? Not that much. I honestly don't think that that matchup made that big of a difference. And even Chris Finch post game was basically saying, like, we're just kind of shuffling the deck. And Jaden's length wasn't doing much.

So why not try something a little different? Was it Ant's superlative defensive play that made Luca shoot poorly? I think mostly not. It was a lot of the same shots and they rimmed out. And look, that's the gambit with Luca and Kyrie sometimes. They take a lot of really difficult attempts. You're going to have games like this where they don't hit. And this is what it looks like.

And the fact that they were still in this, I think as a credit to the Mavs defense, they were able to force a lot of turnovers, find a lot of alternative offense, certainly make a lot of good plays for their role players and get a lot of good looks for those guys out of everything. But the combination of Luca not hitting some of the shots he's hit previously in this series and missing lively. and replacing him with Maxi Kleba being thrown into the fire, who's doing his best out there,

but woefully undersized, and Dwight Powell, who just has respectfully, nothing to offer. Stick a fork in that dude. Here's the thing with Derek lively. With him, you're getting, obviously, rim protection, incredible rim protection from a rookie. You're getting a guy who can catch the ball

on the short roll in the middle of the floor, spray out, passes to shooters, make a play. and you're getting a legit center-sized player who can finish over and through Rudy Gobero and Carltony Towns. Dwight Powell does none of those things. And every time he's tried to go up offensively

in the limited time he's been on the floor since Lively's injury, he just has no answers. He has no way to even get the ball up to the basket. And so those minutes are hard in ways that make Kyrie's job harder and Luca's job harder. Because now they don't have that natural outlet

in the pick and roll to hit the guy in the middle of the front, floor and all of a sudden everything opens up. They have to make everything work. And in Gipfour, they weren't able to. So in the first three games, the Mavs got so many goddamn outright dunks in half court. It was ridiculous, right? And that's because, you know, the defenders are overloading on Luca.

And once he sees that daylight, that lob is going up there. And sometimes it wasn't even lobs. It was just straight up passes to a dude who was open under the basket for a dunk. And the wolves finally were just like, yo. we're going to give up a lot of stuff. We're just not giving up that damn lob because that's 100% shot. Whereas, like, you know,

Luca in the mid-range or Luca from floater range inside the paint, you know, outside the dotted line or whatever. That's a, you know, that's a tougher shot. So they made that exchange. But again, when it's Powell and Moxie Kleber in those positions, it's just a completely different value proposition

in terms of what that pick and roll looks like. So, yeah, I think lively is very, very important to how they attack and how they defend, obviously. I don't know if you guys saw this stat, but going into game four, there have been 107 total lob dunks in the playoffs this year. 48 of them are from the maps. Jeez. So they are utilizing that weapon in a way that no other team is.

And if you, Gafford is still an incredible finisher. And look, get a game winning lob finish just a game ago. So, you know, clearly they still have that whether lively plays or not. But the fact that every minute on the floor, you may not have. have someone who can finish a lob like that, changes the geometry of what they're trying to accomplish, for sure. Yeah, it definitely felt like Luca was adjusting. And I wouldn't say he necessarily struggled,

but there were definitely different factors here that he was trying to adapt to on the fly. And I think that's why he was a little gripping the wheel tighter than he typically does. And he typically is pretty nails every game to the point where every possession, every call he is arguing about. But maybe that was some event.

I do think he does tend to struggle, and he, quote, struggle as much as Luca can struggle against, like, more of a fire plug type. He identified, like, Drew Holiday, for instance, is one of the guys he thinks is, like, best at guarding him. And I think Ant kind of has that basic mold, that basic build.

We talk about that later when we get the Boston series, but I think that might be a little advantageous for the Celtics, but also lively, not having the live, lob thread in there, I thought was pretty noticeable on both ends. And I think to that point, the Mavs took 43s in this case. game. They typically, one through three games one through three, they'd been averaging 28. That's more like a Claiba style, kick out to the corner style than what you'd seen from the previous

games where they'd kind of just own the paint doing the lob stuff as kind of a bailout for everything that was happening. Yeah. And you can see the way all these things kind of intersect to in terms of the matchups and what the Mavs are, or what the, the Wolf's defense is giving up to the Mavs. Because for the opening games of the series, the wolves were shutting down the corners and saying, we're going to try to guard this pick and roll two on two and make it work. And part of the reason it wasn't working was because often Mike Conley was the low man there.

You know, coming off of Derek Jones, and it's like Mike Conley rotating over to stop a lob dunker is not doing anything. It's not a thing. And that's part of why they tried to change up the matchups so that Conley wouldn't be put in that responsibility. It would be a bigger wing in that spot instead. But alternatively, if you just don't guard the corners as aggressively,

then you're not put into those situations quite as often. And you can kind of pick and choose where the help is coming from a little bit more. And you can leave open Derek Jones and PJ Washington and Josh Green and roll the dice with it. And that was one of the big differences in game four, too, is like the inevitability of those first three games where it felt like every time a Mavs role player touched the ball, they hit their shot. That was gone. And there were those possessions where even the Mavs would get two and three offensive rebounds and get two and three good cracks at it. And they would miss all of those good cracks. And that's honestly what playoff basketball comes down to a lot of the time is you just you miss those same shots that carried you through a game or two ago.

Yeah, PJ Washington has not covered himself in glory in this series. Don't matter. He got him there. Yeah, he's been great for them. But I do wonder if we're looking big picture takeaways like adjustments teams can make going into this next game. I think it might be slow-mo's music. You know, I think he might have just stuck and earned himself even more minutes than he's been playing off the bench. Because he's big and he's strong and he's like McDaniels doesn't have the girth to deal with Luca. Lucas is just too big.

He just moves him too easily once he gets his body into him. Slow Mo is stronger than him and still has the length to bother him. And obviously Luca's not like some jitterbug. He's not going to like blow right past him, you know, off the dribble. So it's weirdly a matchup that works for him. And I think part of the calculus that I liked about Switch. it up. It's like, all right, McDaniels is our best defensive player we feel like, or perimeter defensive player. Can we put him on somebody that he's actually going to affect? Right.

Like, it's like counterintuitive to be like, yo, we should put our best guy on their best guy. Well, it's like, no, let's actually put him somewhere where he can have an actual impact. And I think he did impact Kyrie in this previous game. I think so, too. I think he impacted Kyrie much more than Ant affected Luca to the extent that their shots and how they were playing. You could see Kyrie feel like he played a little rushed. He was a little out of sorts. He made some uncharacteristic turnovers.

Those are usually the effects of length and feeling like you have to go, go, go to get your attempts off. And so that I think is a meaningful difference. I'm totally with you guys on Kyle Anderson. The Mavs have not been able to exploit his shooting in this series really at all. The wolves keep finding ways to use him as a connector, to make him involved, to force the mass to guard him in other capacities. and he's such a smart player.

But moreover, he's just a really freaking good defender. And I thought one of the funniest possessions of game four was there was a Jaden Hardy ISO where the ball swung to him kind of late in the clock with Anderson on him, you know, things ticking down. He's got to go. He tried to rev up and get by Kyle Anderson. And it was like he was so confused as to why it didn't work. And you can see this with a lot of really athletic guys who try to get by him. And he moves well.

He has great hands. He anticipates incredibly well. And he can shut down even a good young player who's having a great game in an impressive series, but he's a hard guy to get around. So you're saying he's the knuckleball of this series? I mean, honestly pretty good. Better than your challengers metaphor. That's for sure.

I like the challengers metaphor. But yeah, I just think slow-mo, I think part of it, I don't think Conley has been bad per se. It just seems like they need a little bit more out of that position. And if Conley isn't making a meaningful impact. taking the playmaking burden off of Ant, I do think it helps to get the size in there. For the record, I thought Conley had a great first half in particular

and his ability to get to the rim and exploit, you know, some of the defensive miscommunications and the lack of rim protection and some of those lineups from the Mabbs not having lively. I thought that stuff was huge for them. It was a really good, like, soft-ass floater game from Mike Conley.

Just everything was coming off the backboard so gently and coming right in. That's what they need in terms of supplementary offense. but to your point, it's not always there. And he is the kind of offensive threat that within the complexion of this team tends to come and go a little bit. It has been there, surprisingly, for Hardy,

who I guess because everything that the Mavs are having success with and they're kind of built around these two guards has become just like kind of these spark plug isolation drives. And so I wonder if there's like almost like a trickle-down effect where it's like, we're just going to keep riding this style

regardless of who we're throwing at there. but I've been impressed by him. He hit 13 points on eight shots. Why he's getting eight shots and a crucial closeout game four is kind of startling, but like it's working so far. I've been amused by the hearty Exum, Josh Green shuffle that the Mabbs kind of run out there and just hope and pray that they get something out of one of those guys or two if they're completely lucky every single game.

And, you know, game four, he had his moments. And he had a couple of like nice little moments in the OKC series. nicer than I would have anticipated anyway. So, yeah, it's just one of those things you got to do in the playoffs, man. Like, you're not going to bring nine guys who are nails every single game. Like, it doesn't work like that. You just got to get lucky every now and again in a series and hope that one of these guys can come through for you.

I'm reminded of Lonnie Walker against the freaking Golden State Warriors last year, but this dude just went insane and swung a damn series. Like, it's crazy, but that's the playoffs. That's the crucible. Some of it is lucky, right? Some of it is a young player, good variance. It happens. Some of it in heart, like, to credit Hardy,

if you would have told me at the beginning of this season that he would be making meaningful plays off the dribble in the Western Conference finals, there was no chance I would have believed you. He was a good spot-up shooter, but could not figure it out whenever he put the ball on the floor. And the fact that he's been able to navigate the inner workings of one of the best defensive teams,

in the league. Incredibly impressive stuff. And I think you can see, you know, Kyrie has really taken him under his wing and you've been able to see it during their entire run together. But you can see kind of the quickness with which he's attacking,

rubbing off on Jaden Hardy too. Like that's something that's worked so well for Kyrie this year. He gets the ball and he goes. And it's really benefit Hardy too where he dances a little less, except when he's trying to get by Kyle Anderson. It's being a decisive moves with the ball.

And he's beating people to the rim or beating people to his shot. Captain Kyrie, he's going to win a teammate of the year. Kevin Stokes. Yeah, I think it's been most surprising that he is supplanted Exum, who feels like the guy that they need. Like, he seems like the perfect fit for what they need out of that position, which is like he can ball handle, obviously,

and he has size and he tends to hit shots or he did at times this season. But like for the shuffle to come out with Hardy on top there for, for those minutes has been, I would not have guessed that going into it. It's just with X-Men, when he misses, it just looks absolutely horrible. It feels like he'll never make another shot again. And that's what I think Jay Kidd is responding to.

But Jay Kidd, Jason Kidd has made a lot of really smart coaching moves in these playoffs. Hell you. This is a weird thing because I don't want to bag on Tim Hardaway Jr. too much, but not playing Tim Hardaway Jr., is a big deal, and it's something that not a lot of coaches would have, like, the steel to do.

Like, that's a guy who gets buckets and is a proven veteran and played big minutes for the Mavs all season and has been kind of a security blanket-type player and the idea that he's not even in the rotation anymore, and I'm not saying he should be, and I think he's probably the right move. That's what I was going to say, Rob.

He's also been horrific in his playoff minutes. He's been horrible. He's been bad in his playoff minutes, but there's veterans, there's coaches who trust their veteran guys in those moments and stick with them Michael Malone, another kind of case in this, right? Like, I don't know, there's no Peyton Watson equivalent here,

but Jaden Hardy being like an unreliable regular season player thrown into the fire and trusted to make decisions is something that teams like the Nuggets didn't do. Other eliminated teams have not and like would not do in this position. So credit to kid for that too. It's a hard call not playing a guy like Hardaway, but they've been able to make it work with the rotation, even with that roll of the dice every game. do we need to talk about Gobert just before we go here in part because of the text that you sent us last night during the game which is like everyone is mad at Rudy Gobert and I don't know why yeah dude a friend of mine is like she's like a casual NBA observer in like maybe 20 minutes before that she texted me and said what's Rudy Gober's deal like basically like everybody just has a feeling like yo I

I don't like this guy. Yeah. A lot of enemies in the league to say the least. But it's more interesting to me that of all the players in the league, Rudy Gobert is one of our premier lightning rods. I can see it. I mean, he has a couple things going against him. How can you see it?

Really? I think it's, I think the litmus test of almost the mom test, which was his conveying of like, you kind of know it when you see it. I think is pretty telling where it's like, one, So he's going to be on the end of on both sides some pretty contentious plays.

Sure. I think two, he could be a little peevish, you know, and like obviously Luca can too and the two of them put together. It's like, oh my God. Like, I'm surprised anyone gets out of there alive, the amount of just like tersness that's going back and forth between them. And like the Mavs crowd obviously is going to get on Rudy Moore because of that. He's going at their guy. Let's just be honest, kind of a herb, you know? Just like, it just doesn't really.

All right. What are we doing? What are we doing? It says some things where it's like, all right, man. Whatever. Some of the hard fouls where it's just like so unnecessary. I'm just like, all right, bro.

He will take a hard foul for sure. And that's the thing. Like, one of the files he did on Luca was like 50 feet away from the basket. Somebody tries to get a layup and you hard foul they ask in a playoff game. Everybody understands that. Like when you're just doing unnecessarily hard fouls way away from the play, it's just like, all right, man. You got it, Rudy.

I just never would have guessed that the player to really get people's blood pumping would be Rudy Gobert. He also cried about not making the All-Star team. So emotions run internally and external. While he was on a max contract, while he was on a max contract, cried about the All-Start team.

I think it is a lot of that about almost fighting back in situations that a lot of players would probably stay mute on. And I appreciate that he's willing to say what's on his mind. Like, as journalism, I'm always like, I like when people say things. We shouldn't like try to depress people from doing so.

You know, can't discredit the whole French stuff too. And, you know, especially there in Texas. What are you trying to say about French people, Justin? I just don't think the people of Paris, Texas really jive with the people of Paris, France. The hard scrabble Texans don't got a lot of love for the French, okay? But I think it's almost every fan base at this point. Every fan base has beef with Rudy Gobert somehow.

Even if the, like, hard fouls have it. been committed. So I don't entirely get it, even still, even after you both so carefully explained it to me, I thought he had a massive impact on game four. They played really well. Like, yeah. Rudy's been really good in the playoffs. Like, yes, he had some bad moments against Yokic one-on-one.

Yes, that's fair. But he's been pretty damn good otherwise. Yes. Yeah, the discourse about him has kind of gone off the rails. Again, I find myself more as a minor. It's been off the rails. It's been. So it's tough to even like back into it because I don't feel as full-throated about it as I do some other things.

But like I get why people just don't like him and tend to nitpick on some of his foibles, let's say, both playing and personality-wise. What do you feel passionate about, Justin? Offseason talk, which is what we're going to get to on this pod. Actually, no, let's say, let's say goodbye to Bill Walton here, because I think we have to talk about. about this. I think for us, we probably know Walton as more of an announcer because I think I personally was negative 10 years old when they won the title in Portland and I think minus one when they won the title in Boston with Walton. And so we've kind of grown up with him more as like a broadcaster. And obviously he's been very prominent in that regard, both in the NBA and college.

But like, I think that one hit harder than I was expecting. And I say this is someone with literally a Bill Walton portrait, I guess, art on my wall. The lone MBA art that I will put on my wall except for Nicola Meechish's photo, which is also up there.

Yeah, it's just like, it was a tough one. You in particular seemed... Yeah, man, I don't know. I guess I didn't know he was sick. So that's a one. Like, the news kind of just hit me like a ton of bricks.

And I was kind of trying to figure out why. And I just think it's because when him and Snapper were working for NBC, that team, that was, like, very formative years in me becoming, like, a huge NBA fan. And his style as a broadcaster just spoke to me. The guy was, like, freaking crazy. He was an eccentric. Like, he was fun. And, you know, like, the thing that always shown through to me is, like, his genuine

love for the game, right? Like, every now and again, I watch, like, I'm watching college basketball, and I'm like, does Billy Packer like basketball? I don't know that he does, right? Whereas, like, with Walton, like, it's so obvious this dude's joy that he derived from being around the game and watching

and all of that stuff. And then, you know, just over the years, like, how he's just become just a character and a personality in and around the game. And, you know, obviously, I've done my knowledge on the guy's best. background, like how he's grown up. Like, you know, a lot of his politics kind of speak to me as well.

Like, just all around, this dude was just like somebody that had a deep love for, man. So I was just blown away the other day when I got the news, man. It's just kind of crazy. Yeah, it's always weird. I don't know what y'all's relationship is with this kind of like the passing of a public figure. It's not usually something I have a very strong emotional reaction to. Shock, sure, surprise, especially as you're saying was, if you don't.

don't know what someone is going through, if you don't know that they're battling an illness of some kind, this one stuck with me and it just kept coming back. Like every couple hours, I would remember it again. And I had a really hard time kind of putting my finger on why that was, because Justin, you're right. Like, we're too young to have a relationship with him as a player. I never met Bill. I have no knowledge of him as a person other than what other people share. And he seems to be incredibly generous, like a great guy. But I don't think that's it. I think it is. I think it is more about him as a broadcaster and him it's about the joy that you're talking about was and like there's just not another human being on earth who would think to say that boris d'ia would

remind him of beethoven in the age of the romantics literally no one else would do it yeah and no one had to because we had bill walton like he would he was there to provide exactly that kind of joy and that kind of comparison and it's not like he made me fall in love with basketball exactly but he made me want to see it the way he saw it. And he talked about it in a way, like with the exuberance and the intelligence that made you feel cooler for loving it. And it made you feel like you were a part of something. Yeah.

And like you didn't have to act like you were above it. You know, like you were allowed to just be awed by the magic that can happen on a basketball court. And again, it's such a weird feeling to get messed up about the death of someone you don't really know at all. Yeah, I never met. You know, like there's this clip running, sort of being passed around of like him talking about Yokic's game. Obviously, I'm Yolkich hive up here, but there's a similarity in their games in the generosity and the passing and unselfishness and like that style of play obviously informing Bill Walton's

philosophy on life, right? And so it's those synergies that really spoke to me. And I think that's just why, like, you know, I was just so torn up about this shit, man. What a legend. I think his positivity also has a certain gravity. That's just unmistakable and just totally remarkable. And I think it's almost underscored by his personal journey as a player. Like the print I have up on my wall, which is from Jacob Weinstein, who did a lot of the free darko art, is of Walt in a Clipper's jersey smelling a rose, which is like, and he has a tear in his eyes.

And obviously it's a nod to him being in Portland, but also like his personal journey where I think he had 30 plus orthopedic surgeries because the guy who is at the center of the most beautiful game that we've ever seen. I've only seen an eclipse, but just seeing those clips like, good God, that team was pretty remarkable, that Portland Trailblazers team. To have that undone by the same body that's like fueling it is like poetic and like cruel and like but also kind of human. and beautiful in a way that I really respond to. And I've always found like kind of meaning in that sort of thing. But then to come on the other side of that and just be like just an absolute beacon of joy, that's just like you can't even knock for for just being so positive and whatnot. Like I think certain people you could be like, oh, that guy is just always positive.

Sometimes it feels hokey. Yeah, it feels hokey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's there was absolutely none of that. If anything, you wanted more than that. I listened to the podcast with Brian Curtis, he did. And just listening him go for 45 minutes off of one question was incredible. It's just like there's just something about that type of guy that like I think everybody,

basketball fans, just sports fans or even just like your mom and just people that know of him would be heart pressed to really deny. Yeah. I think that is a huge part of it, the idea that he had every life reason to feel like something had been taken from him and to be a jaded person and to feel beaten down by the way his career went. And there was just none of that in any word he ever said publicly. And from the outpouring of response that's happened since he passed, it seems like privately he's exactly that guy too.

And the closest thing I could think about it, and some of it is the way all of these life events kind of inform the way we think about people and what they mean to us in a very public sense. The closest thing I could think about it was when Roger Ebert died. And that death hit me, I think for the same reason that Bill Walton's death has been kind of hitting me over and over, which is there are these people who are going through incredible things in their lives and sometimes incredibly tragic things in their lives, but they put a voice to a thing that you love and they show you how to love it better.

And when those people come along, like, you just want to hold on to them as long as you possibly can. Yeah. And I've always had kind of a mixed relationship to the way that basketball fans or sports fans respond to the broadcasters. because sometime, kind of when we were sort of coming up in the business, like the people calling the games became as prominent as the people within the game. And I've always had a weird relationship with that sort of meta sort of relationship to broadcasters. But I think it's

kind of impossible to deny like the impact that someone who's a mainstay calling your favorite sports league that you spend every fucking day pouring over in the way that we do basketball like means to you. And I think the stuff that Curtis does for the right, and before that grant, I think speaks to that where it's like, you do a profile on Iron Eagle, and it hits and it like, it registers as much as something on, I don't know, like, just Derek Lively, for instance. And so like, I think it would be like, it would be wrong to ignore the impact that like the people calling the games have on us and the game itself. I mean, again, if you, if you're going to spend as much time as we have watching this stuff,

And, you know, I would say the same thing about somebody like Wal-Clyde Frazier or Marve Albert or all of these guys who just really obviously loved what they were doing and could inform us at the same time. Like, again, like, that stuff informed my own love and enthusiasm for the game. And I would go as far as to say, it's part of why I'm even doing what I do for work now. Like, I'm not, those two things don't feel disconnected to me at all. And that's why, you know, I'm 37. years old now. It's easier for me to get, like, wispy and, like, self-reflective on my life

and where I am and my journey and shit like that. And, like, Bill Walton is a big part of that. You know what I'm saying? Like, listening to him call Shaq and Kobe's games as they were becoming Shaq and Kobe, for real. Like, you know, there's stuff that's going to always be

with me. We're just a wispy-ass podcast. Yes. It's true. It's what it is. I have to say, I don't know if you guys watched inside the NBA going into last night's game, but I thought they did a really good job talking about Walton, including Ernie John's new shares story about like, uh, Walton reaching out to him when Ernie's mother died, like sent him this beautiful, uh, email and he kind of like sent, like,

he signed off with like the way the Walton signed off and it was like a perfect ending in order to go into the break. Then Reggie Miller was like, Mike drop, Ernie. It was just going to undid the entire thing. Oh, no. But yeah. Why don't we take a break here in order to to change the vibe of the show because we have some off-season stuff to talk about.

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I thought that they were right there in that game yet again. I think the scoring margin in the series overall has only been eight points. And so I know the wolves playing a little bit better, but give me Dallas on the road plus four and a half. So got to take the points in that one, especially if these series are going to be this close. So Dallas plus four and a half. There's no better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sportsbook. Just go to fandul.com slash ringer NBA to get started. FanDul official sports betting partner of the NBA. Must be 21 plus and 18 plus in D.C. and present in select states excluding North Carolina. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-dash help.com. First online real money wager only. $10 deposit required.

Bonus bets are non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. All right. We need to check in on the rest of the league. because we have all this time, frankly. And so we got to do something. But I think it's relevant because today on Wednesday, as we're recording this during the day, Tailu got paid five years, $70 million, makes him among the highest paid coaches in the league.

And I think was the big takeaway here is thank you, Monty Williams, because you got pretty much every fucking good coach paid this entire season. Like, I was like, should he be thanking Monty Williams or Detroit Pistons Management? One of the two deserves a thank you card from Tai Lu because this seems like just an exorbitant extension. Even though Tai Lu, we all think he's a really good coach, but like the Clippers thing hasn't been overly successful. Like, we can say that. And so this extension just seemed like a lot of money, but it's like, yo, if you want to keep this guy in town, then it's like, yeah, he has to get paid as much as money.

freaking Williams. He's more accomplished than him. There's also that thing with coach salaries where because there's no cap or like reason that I should care, it's like great. Yeah. Hey, Tyler, whatever he wants. Amazing. Right. Well, it's probably

Moni having effect. It's definitely Monty's contract having an effect. But I also wonder how much it is the Lakers being out there hunting for a new head coach and creating leverage points for guys like Ty Lou because also Jason Kidd, curiously. had is reported to have signed an extension or is going to a sign an extension.

Obviously, Kid has a relationship with the Lakers having been the assistant coach there when they won the 2020 title. So I think there's that element to it, which bridges nicely, I think, to the next part of this conversation where it seems like JJ Reddick's going to be the coach of the Lakers next year, which is wild on a number of reasons, Rob. Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, Justin. And just now you said, I think the Lakers are looking for a coach. I think they have a coach. Oh, my God, dude. I'm operating on the assumption that J.J. Reddick will be the coach of Los Angeles Lakers. That's where I'm coming from.

But we have to talk about why it's wild. Him and LeBron started a freaking X and O's podcast, basically doing PR for JJ's basketball acumen as far as a mind and strategy and things of that nature. Like, he literally ran a PR campaign. with the best player on the team and now he's going to become the coach. This is insane, guys. How conscious do you think that process is?

Is it earnestly, they want to break down the game, they want to elevate the discourse, they start this podcast, they form a relationship, trust builds, or, as you're saying, is it like a, was it a soft pilot? Was this a soft launch? Rob, we're talking about LeBron James,

one of the most psycho media entities that's ever existed. Like this guy is obsessed with messaging. Buttoned up. Buttoned up is all hell. He understands the power of crafting a message via media. Like, that's what he does. JJ started a freaking tens of millions of dollars media empire.

Yeah. Doing what? Like getting some messaging out about himself. So, like, the identity these guys just unwittingly just naturally just came together for a podcast. Is this like, nah, I'm not buying. that. I can't buy that. This quote from Rich Paul, who I forgot where this is from. I think he was

on one of those Manningcast sort of things that they're doing on T&T, maybe. There's no controlling of the team, the team being the Lakers. And JJ is a friend. We respect JJ. I know LeBron and JJ have the podcast. I did JJ's

podcast. Me and JJ talk hoops all the time. He does know hoops. But just because they have a podcast, the Lakers have to make a decision for now and later. So basically he's saying he might as well be in my wedding party, but no, no, no, we have nothing to do with this. This is totally fine.

If you're on somebody's podcast, I think there's a couple levels before wedding party. Sure, but the fact that he's talking to him often that LeBron talks to him often, like, to try to present this is that we have no influence over this thing. And maybe it's like of the Shabazz Napier drafting him to the heat sort of influence where it's like soft power, where it's insinuation versus like going out there and saying get me, JJ. But it's very clear like there's a, there's a line there whether or not they want to just like put some dirt over and not ignore it. It's a whole other thing. Well, whatever the origin point was, was this has always had the hallmarks to me of a hire in need of a quote unquote

search where they know the guy they want to be their head coach for whatever reason. And let's let's just wrangle some candidates. Let's just spitball, you know, just to get some word of mouth out there. By the way, the Ty Lou thing, remember, he was a done deal to the Lakers and then they lowballed his ass. They got really cheap and obviously, you know, Ty Lou and LeBron are tight and that thing was supposed to happen. And maybe they're like this time like, all right, I guess we could probably listen to this dude on a coaching suggestion. I wonder what the dollars are going to look like and compared to the rest of these guys. But man, this is just a crazy path that we've taken to get here. I think from the Lakers perspective, or the very least, if you want to be

an optimist for their side of things, the way that they've tried to intentionally message this in various forms, including Rich Paul being on this Manningast sort of thing, whatever it was, is that like they want to buy low on a guy that they can grow into their new Eric Spolstra. He's been here for 10, 15 years. He is the institution sort of guy. And I get that to a certain extent. And Paul even was like, he said the thing that you're hearing a lot of, which is like the Lakers should actually be thinking more about Anthony Davis's timeline. Also said in another format, I believe LeBron James is a free agent, which not technically, but you can be a free agent. So that's a little curious. But it seems like they want to go young in order to not keep being on the hamster wheel of coaches. I think there's a

certain logic to that. But I also think like to go outside of the just general like coaching options and like try to message this as like we're thinking outside the box and being like almost light years ahead of the coaching competition is a bit much like those guys grew into the 10 years 15 year coaches Steve Kerr, etc. Because they just happen to be good at the job. I don't know if JJ has even like for instance Kerr had the front office background before he went to this. He worked at a team. Yeah. Yeah. And look at like Derek Fisher and one of that. There was like a whole other class of guys that were similar to Steve Kerr that didn't make it because of the circumstance

or because they just weren't fit for the job. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, look, you're judging based on the same criteria when you're interviewing and considering coaching candidates. It just depends on is the body of work there to judge in a public sense what they've already done? JJ doesn't have that.

But you're judging, obviously, the podcasted acumen. You're judging the interpersonal skills. You're judging, will a locker room respect him? I think all of those things are, generally true. That's not going to make him a successful coach or not. And look, if anything, what I always worry about with players becoming coaches and making that transition, especially guys like JJ who are hyper competitive, right, a hyper competitive NBA player, you have to shift into a different frame of mind as a coach. You still need to be

competitive. You still need to be driven, but you have to soft pedal so much and you have to manage so many different ways. It can be a little tricky for some NBA players to make that transition from I get to go all out in a game and get into teammates' faces and be a competitive individual versus I have to also like maintain these guys' trusts and maintain their buying and I can't go too too hard at them at this particular moment. And there's obviously similarities in those jobs, but it is it is noticeably different. And that's kind of where you want to see. How is he going to measure up in that capacity? It's funny to hear you say that, Rob, because I think of Jason Kidd, who again, we.

He just complimented him like he's a wonderful coach now. But when he first started, his bedside manner absolutely fucking sucked. It was terrible. It took him burning two coaching situations to the ground before he came to Dallas. And he's done great in Dallas. And he's been like, and he's had times where he challenged Luca in public. I remember once he was like, I'm not the savior. Luca's the savior.

And he was like saying it like kind of derisive. I was like, yo, Jake Hid got a slick mouth, man. But he's also been better at being like, yeah, like taking a softer approach in how he talks about his players and like basically his coaching style, right? And so I wonder if JJ not having been a superstar the way Jason Kidd was having been a role player. I wonder if that will shape the way that he is around the guys. I wonder if he'll take a different approach than Jason Kidd who's like, I'm a Hall of Famer. You guys are fucking nobodies who've never accomplished anything. you should be listening to me.

And, you know, they would say he was like playing mind games and shit. Some of the stuff that Jay Kid was associated with early on in his coaching career. In Milwaukee and Brooklyn. Was so bad. So I wonder if JJ's going to come into this with like the proper humility and just massaging the egos and stuff. Yeah, I think a lot of coaching is people management, as you guys are referring to. I think it's becoming more a part of the job as staffs get bigger and more specialized. I think some of these jobs

you have the budget to build out your staffing becomes a little bit more like a college football coach where it's like you are the guy we're making all the decisions but some of your other positional coaches are doing more of the day-to-day work and so maybe JJ's fit for that because I do think he has a high IQ

but I honestly don't know about the emotional IQ because he does seem to get pretty tight and ters pretty quickly in a way that might not work. He can't bring first take JJ to this job. do not do it do not do it no one should bring the first take version of themselves to any other job i think the actual question is if podcasters can get job on coaching staffs like how does waz get on to the lakers staff we're waiting i'll settle for the clutch staff honestly if we're being real i actually do think j j j is going to be a good coach i you know again

every young coach has to take their lumps a little bit and figure out what they need to learn and when and how to do the job. But I do think he has a lot of the characteristics that good players transitioning into coaching have. I do think he's going to do a good job. And I think tactically, there are things he can bring to the table right up front. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit for the Lakers that they can clean up and that a guy like Kim can look very good doing.

The question is going to be like long-term, what kind of coaches he become? And I don't even know that he would know the answer to that right now. Yeah. Most guys take a job or two to get there as well. I'm pretty much with Rob. I genuinely am pretty positive about. JJ. And like to me, my favorite thing is like the guy has a clear, deep curiosity for the game. And I think that's going to serve him well in his job. And so yeah, like I'm, I'm pretty

bullish on the higher for sure. It just again, my mind is just freaking blown by the road that we've taken to get here. Do they replace the postgame beer, which a lot of teams have? I assume they still have it with just high-end wine on the table. Not a lot of teams have the post-game beer anymore. Staples would have some Bud lights. Yeah, Staples would have some Budlights back in

like 19 and 20. I don't know if they, I don't Portland does. Portland does. You're telling me Dallas does not, like they don't have like a mini fridge specifically

for Luca. I mean, well, look, players are a different story. I'm not speaking to what they do or don't do. Oh, that's what I'm talking about. Oh, got you're talking about for them. I thought you're talking about

for us media credence. Oh, no, they don't give a fuck about this. I'm surprised they give us just like, gruel sometimes. No, yeah, the post-game locker room beer situation. Fuck it. You just played 40

minutes in a game. Drink a fucking Bud Light. It's fine. I know, but I wonder if now it's going to be just high-end Kiantes and whatever that. Kiantes? Kianti Georges? Yeah. The wine.

Kianti. It's Kianti. It's Kianti. Yeah. Let's turn the spell check off. look I think we're in the right on that one I think that's within we're done our bounds to correct some Willamette Valley

pinot noirs yeah we get some nice wine in there for sure okay well we'll keep an eye on that specific wrinkle to this uh why don't we just wrap it there uh thank you to Isaiah blakley thank you to Ben Cruz thank you to Eddie Ocampo we'll be back Saturday I believe look look out for the show Saturday night Sunday morning, I think is what we're doing, but we'll be back on the weekend, hopefully with the finals

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