The Ringer NBA Show - How Should Players and Media Move Forward Following the Joel Embiid Incident? Plus, Would Drake Take DeMar’s Jersey Down? | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

Howard Beck and Raja Bell kick it with 11-year NBA veteran and 'Off Guard' podcast host Austin Rivers to discuss player and media relations following Joel Embiid’s altercation with a Philadelphia columnist. Austin and Raja speak on what should happen to Embiid, and whether his actions were warranted (03:07). How do teams handle player, fan, and media relations when issues arise (31:46)? Howard tells a story about how Kobe Bryant once had an issue with him and something he wrote (43:31). Plus, Vince Carter gets his jersey retired in Toronto, and Drake say’s he’ll take DeMar DeRozan’s jersey down if he ever gets honored by the Raptors (48:48) Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Guest: Austin Rivers Producer: Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get you. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media that's at Ringer NBA and check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting

read in the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. What up? It's the real ones on Election Day Tuesday. Please go vote. You haven't already. I'm Howard Beck, senior writer at The Ringer and with me today, not one, but two former NBA players slash Ringer colleagues. As always, Raja Bell. And I think making his real one's debut. He can correct me if I'm wrong. The host of the off of, excuse me, of, uh, excuse me, of off guard with Austin Rivers, Austin Rivers. So, uh, why do we bring in Austin today? Uh, good question. Because over the weekend, we had a very unusual and unfortunate and, uh, just, just not great event in the NBA, of course, in Philly, Joelle and Bede shoved a Philadelphia columnist. And I thought, if I'm going to have this discussion, I really wanted

to have like I want to have multiple player perspectives here. So who better than to have than our two resident former NBA players here along with me, a long time NBA reporter. And I will note, we're doing all this over video. So if I get out of line, neither Austin nor Raja can shove me. I've seen some bids. I've seen some videos of Raja, man. Hey. I've seen that temper. Way less testosterone. I guess I should point out, they can't shove each Either either. We're all in individual places. Those days are talking to me. So I wanted to jump into that.

We're also going to get later in the show. We'll get to Vince Carter's Jersey retirement. Some thoughts on Vince. Maybe some mailbag questions. Keep sending them to real ones mailbag at gmailbag at gmail.com. Damn it. I thought I'd get through three of those. Real ones mailbag and gmail.com. The mouth. That's a tongue twister. All right. So guys, I'm sure you saw all the reports. the fallout so far. We're recording this. I'll just note it's 1250 Eastern on Tuesday. There's no results of the investigation yet from the NBA. I'm fully expecting that Joelle and Bede's going to be disciplined in some way, shape, or form, probably a suspension.

We'll see how many games that is. If that happens while we're talking, I'll break in with the breaking news. But in the meantime, I just want to throw it open to you guys with this. just a general thought right off the top. Austin, you go first on this. Just your thoughts on how Joelle Embed handled this. It's the first time he's seeing the columnist since what the columnist wrote. I can read that off for the listeners in a minute here. But just in general, how did you feel about the way Embedde handled his end of this?

Well, I'm understandable in the fact that emotions can get the best of us, right? Especially, you know, during the season, you got a lot of a dream. adrenaline a lot of different things. I don't even know if it was after a win or a loss or he wasn't even playing. I don't even know if he was playing. But the article was a negative article, which is one thing, right? So you already have feelings like that. There is like this overall, I think, consensus that like we just don't hear anything or care about anything. You know what I mean? And a lot of times players even put that out there like, man, I don't pay attention to none of that stuff. We do. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day,

we're all competitive when we care. I'm not saying we care about everything. little thing on like every Instagram or Twitter comment and stuff like that. But an article, you know, written by like a beat writer from your own team, something like that, that's something you might be in tune to see and actually care about. And then when you bring up the passing of a family member in regards to him, the article, and again, you'll read it, it does, it comes across like he's saying he's letting him down in a way. Like, you know, he, you know, it just, you could tell it was a very poor choice of, you know, it was. A poor choice of, words by the writer. I am total on Joel Embed's side. Just putting hands on someone is when

you already know you're crossing the line. It's a very complex situation. I think both were at the wrong, but obviously, like you said, Joel is going to be disciplined. You can't put your hands on somebody. Can't push him. I mean, good guy. Could you imagine just being a writer? And this guy's probably, I don't even know what he looks like, but he's probably like five, seven, you know, not exactly an athlete and you got like Jewel Embed is like this seven foot two you know just

humonged pissed off man in front of you like it's probably a scary thing to have him in your face and push you you know what I mean so like yeah it's unfortunate you know I I have no problem with writers saying things that are critical and being tough on guys but it's different when you start bringing in family aspects especially someone who's passed

his brother it's not a it's not a professional thing to do yeah Raja Yeah, I mean, I would agree what like, you know, first, let me let me just say like you have to suspend him. Even if I can understand some of, you know, what Austin's talking about and I do. You have to set precedent. I mean, as a league, it's almost like the malice and the palace where we just cannot open Pandora's box to the possibility of fans and players fighting. well the same is going to hold true for media like we can we cannot have situations where media

members are being assaulted by by players for something that they write right whether whether i can understand where joel and bide is ultimately coming from or not so let's just from from that perspective of the league there has to be something done there and i would imagine um it's it's it's it has to send a message like this we this cannot happen right that's your that's your responsibility as at the league as far as joel is concerned I do feel what Austin is saying. Like we're not immune to to hearing, you know, what's going on out there, especially given the fact that it's a guy that we deal with all the time.

I would venture to say, and I don't, I haven't followed their interactions. But typically when people are writing things like that, it's not the first time they've written something negative about you or it's not the first time you guys might have interacted in a negative way. Like guys don't typically go from like being on your side and being a pseudo friend of yours to writing something like that about you. Good point. So like, yeah, there's probably some history there. And and it is all the way out of bounds for you as a writer to, to bring, bring up tragedies in my personal life and reference them in articles. Say what you want about me as a

player. Say what you want about me as an ambassador to the city of Philly. Say what you want about me as as, as, you know, the, the end-all, be-all of us winning a championship or not, but, but don't bring past relatives and tragedies in my personal life into the story. And I feel Joel Embed on that. You cannot, you cannot physically assault, assault him. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll, I'll read this. Maybe I should have started off with this, but for the listeners who didn't see the piece or haven't seen this clip, it's a pair, it's a, it's a, the column, this is a columnist. This is not a beat writer, right? not somebody who's covering the Sixers day to day. This is a Philadelphia

choir columnist Marcus Hayes who, you know, he's an opinion guy. That's his job. He weighs in on the Sixers and on every other sport. So this is not somebody who, you know, guys like you guys, you're not going to see him every day in the locker room or at every practice. He's a columnist. He's not a beat writer. So, but he does have a history of being pretty hard on Joelle Embede. And this particular column took a bit of a turn here. So the column is overall just, you know, the usual criticism of a Joelle Embed and not playing and injuries and this and that. They're not winning enough, all the usual stuff. And then he says this, and this is for Marcus Hayes' column.

Joel Embed consistently points to the birth of his son, Arthur, as the major inflection point in his basketball career. He often says that he wants to be great to leave a legacy for the boy named after his little brother, who tragically died in an automobile accident when Embed was in his first year as a 76er. And then Marcus Hayes goes on to say, well, in order to be great at your job, you first have to show up for work. And Bid has been great at just the opposite.

Now in his 11th season, he consistently has been in poor condition. This poor conditioning apparently seems to have delayed his debut this season. So he's tying together a lot of things here. And the thing is, a quick disclaimer from me, just as somebody who's been covering this league a long time, been in the business a long time. I generally say, like, I'm not here to play ombudsman, meaning I'm not here to, like, judge or grade other people's work. I don't want to get into a position where we are all sitting here,

spending the everyday, critiquing each other's stuff. I've had plenty of missteps in my own career. Nothing along these lines. But obviously in the writing community, the NBA reporter community, we've talked a lot about this in the last few days. And it's pretty much 100% agreement that everybody thinks,

like that was gratuitous, unnecessary, and, you know, I'll just say that's a class list, frankly. Like, it's not, I hate saying that. Again, like, I don't like weighing in on these things. I don't want to tell anybody else what they should or shouldn't write. An editor should have spiked that part of it immediately. They didn't. It went through. It was edited out after the fact.

So they did recognize that this was, this was, this was wrong. This was gratuitous. This was unnecessary. Well, they knew it was wrong before. Just after the backlash, they decided to edit it. You know, that's the thing, Austin. I don't know at what point was it reader backlash, sixer backlash. Was it after M.B.'s press conference on Friday?

I don't think it was after the, like, it definitely was edited out before they had this confrontation Saturday night. But I don't know at what point they did it. Do we have any, is there any real background on how the interaction took place? Like how that the shove came to be? Was that a heated exchange between the two of them? Was it just a, I haven't seen anything kind of detailing it. There's no, there's no video.

And I'm not sure if video would, I mean, I generally I think video would help, right? Because we'd all have a better sense of like how this escalated what it looked like, what it sounded like, and just what the shove was, how severe it was, right? Because, you know, there's all manners of shove, right? Is it a tap on the shoulder or by some accounts, I've heard second, third hand that he might have gotten more in the neck than the shoulder. That sounds a little more serious, potentially, right? But we have no video evidence of this. All I know is that, like, this was, this was the first time they were seeing each other since Marcus Hayes wrote what he did,

and since M. B.D.'s press conference on Friday. So, you know, listen, on our side of it, if you're covering the league, any of the leagues, one of the golden rules is to show up, especially if you've written something critical, right? Rajah, if I've, if I've written something critical of you. I'm going to be the next day. And if you've got a problem with it, you can tell me face to face, hey, that was fucked up. And I'll say, hey, listen, I see where you're coming from, but here's why I wrote what I did, right? We'll have a conversation. And if we've got a good relationship, there is no escalation. Maybe it gets tense. But, and I've had dozens and dozens and dozens of those instances. It happens. We don't always get it right. We don't always characterize it

in a way that players, coaches, GMs are happy with. It happened. But you show up and you have the conversation, right? So just to finish it, he showed up, I guess to have the conversation. From all accounts, he apologized. But Joel was obviously pretty angry and kept going with his. Also, he did. He came there to apologize and say, sorry for writing that article.

I'm glad you finished that thought because that's very important. He apologized. That was according to the reports. I'm, you know, I wasn't there. And by the way, other disclaimer, I don't know Marcus. We've never met. So. Because, Austin, you could speak to this.

Like, look, their opinion, you know, there are guys in every paper across the NBA landscape whose job is to write an opinion, right? And, and those, you know, are there to elicit a response, right? They're not always going to be great. And you could see that person in a locker room. And if it's not, you know, if it's not personal, if you don't feel like it comes off personal when you see that person and he's, he's not antagonistic about it, we're fine.

It's not a problem. Like, that's your job. Like, I don't have to love what you said, but it doesn't have to rise to the level of us having an issue. And I'm glad that you, you gave us some context there on the apology because especially in that space, you know, that paints what the reaction was from Joel, even in a, in a poorer light for me. Because, you know, if it was one of those situations hypothetically where the dude came in

and and we all know a reporter that you feel like what they write is more personal than business. 100%. Like, you know, like those are the guys that typically we have a problem with. And I can't speak to like the relationship between Joel and Marcus Hayes. But like if he came in hat and hand like, man, like that was a poor choice. My boy. Like I probably shouldn't have done that. That even furthers my, there has to be some history there.

Like there's got to be something that's been. boiling up in a way that, that, you know, Joel's like, yo, this dude just, he feels like it's his job to personally attack what I got going on. Yeah, I would agree with that just from the aspect, especially if you're saying he's apologizing, you know, the only way he continues to push him is if he's probably like, yeah, I've heard this, you've, you've come at me and my name multiple times. So at this point, your apology to me means nothing.

You know, also, I do think Joel is in a position of like, I do think there is frustration there, man. He's been battling injuries most of his career. He's probably hypersensitive about that at this point. People have been very, you know, negative about that with him. You know, some of that's in his control. Some of it's not. You know, he came at his conditioning.

You know, he has, you know, alluding to, you have to show up to work. It's like, bro, he's an MVP a couple years ago. My guy's definitely showed up to work. You know what I mean? Like, so all these feelings and then you tie in, like you said, the passing of his brother, the name of his son, you lost him. You know what I mean? So when you come in to apologize,

Some guys don't even think that they see red. You know what I mean? Like it's not even a, he's not even thinking from a place of logic. He's thinking from a place of emotion. So especially if it's like you said, Philly media in New York, you know, that stuff's a different type of ball club, man. Like that stuff is brutal. So you know he's had his fair share over the years.

Sometimes this can all accumulate to where you get a moment of boiling over. And even though he's apologizing, the damage has been done. The article's out there. He pushes them. Again, I'm out warranting it. I'm just saying these are possible feelings of what was going through Joel. Yeah. I mean, I draw a line here.

And I think it's the line you guys have actually both drawn, which is we can all sit here and say, I understand why Joel lost his cool, why he was pissed, why he believes, I think, rightfully, that the columnist went too far, that this is an area you just don't touch, especially in the context of something almost as relatively trivial as basketball performance, right? Don't pull in family stuff and a deceased brother to try to underscore a point about playing basketball. Like, it's, again, unnecessary. But I think we're all drawn the same line, which is you can understand where Joel's coming from and why he was pissed without endorsing the actual physical. I don't want to say.

Assault sounds so over the top. But just getting physical at all. You know, like you don't have to put hands on somebody to make your point that this was wrong. especially after the guys apologize. I do want to say it because I agree that it sounds crazy, but that is, if you're describing, if it's closer to what you're describing where there was a hand around, that's what that is.

And so that's when like, what like, when it went hand to neck. Yeah. Yeah. Like as, and I'm with you. Like I mean, when I say the actual word of assault, like I'm thinking of something way more egregious in nature.

But like that, that's those, that space is why I say the NBA has no choice. Like I would imagine sitting sitting at desks, you know, as a collective, they're like, hey, you know, could we get away with whatever this relatively small punishment is? Probably, should we go ahead and send a message more probable? Like, we need to go ahead and let people know that we're not with this. And it probably was around the neck considering the size of who he is. It's not like he can push his stomach. He's not five foot six looking him in the eyes. He's pushing down

on this guy. So I'm supposed to be able to. I'm supposed to be able to. He's supposed to surprised it wasn't the top of his head. You know what I mean? Like, the dude's seven foot two pushing a five foot something man. Like, he definitely was probably in the upper, the upper echelon of his, you know, shoulders, the head area. You know what I mean? So, by the way, a man that size usually doesn't even know their own strength, man. You get into it emotionally and you don't even mean to do something, but you do it, not knowing that you're like five times the strength of someone else. You know what I mean? And that's why when you put yourself in that situation, you're gambling with things. You know, you hope this guy doesn't sue or come after him for this

You know, you don't know what could happen. You know, I mean, I had an incident when I played where my teammate Blake got into it with our equipment manager. And you guys remember that, that whole thing that happened? And like, he, a lot of that was this? Remember it was like Blake had that unfortunate incident with our, with our equipment guy? And that was like a whole thing that happened. And he sued and had to get paid off.

It was this whole whole thing, man. And a lot of that happened because they were both drawn back and forth because they were kind of friends. And then, you know, they start kind of getting physical. but Blake is like six times his size and doesn't know his own strength. And like before you know what this guy is like really getting hurt here. You know what I mean? So it's like that type of stuff you've got to be careful.

You kind of wonder who was around him. Was no one able to get in between Joel and this dude? There had to be 30 people in the locker room, the hallway. Like there's still like a lot of uncertainty in the story here of how this was even able to happen. If I'm a teammate and I see my guy, our best player of the team going towards a media dude and it's getting hostile, I'm immediately getting in the middle. I'm like, yo, yo, big big dog. Let's get out of here, man.

come on, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's not worth it. Something like that. Yeah, you know, I don't. That's interesting, awesome. That's interesting, right? Because, like, I, you know, to some degree, that's a failure of, of the Philadelphia, like, PR department. Because, like, what I would have done with that, like, if I was, if this had been with

the cabs or something like that, I would, I would have went to the journalist and said, hey, listen, why are you here? Like, what are you hoping to achieve with this? Then I would have went to Joel and said, hey, Joel, listen, here, such. such is such is here. Here's what they're trying to achieve. You would have got your answer then. Like, Joelle ain't going to say to you, yeah, bring him over here so I can shove him in the chest.

Exactly. He's going to say, yo, I don't want to see him or I don't want to. So like how he got to Joel. That's my point. It's a failure in and of itself, right? Like he shouldn't have probably even been there. But I do have a question for you, Howard. Sorry, real quick, because I am interested.

The type of writer that seems to make it their business, opinion, opinion pieces I understand. but some guys with opinion pieces like stay on an opinion too long right like you can write opinion pieces and have 20 different opinions about a team about 10 different people on the team like the opinion piece guy that writes the same opinion about the same player over and over I don't know that that's necessarily the case with this dude but like from the writing perspective are you like this is just gold I get that many clicks that I want to stay in this lane is it a personal thing like what yeah no it's a good question and it's one of those things things like, right, you know, hard to put myself in, in the head of another journalist.

And, of course, as I say, I don't, I don't think I've ever met Marcus Hayes. I've probably been in the same room with him. But like, I haven't been to that many Philly games the last few years. So I don't know him at all. But when you're a columnist for a local newspaper, right, he's at the Philadelphia Enquirer, right? So you've got, you know, the Eagles, the Phillies, the Flyers, the Sixers, probably colleges. He's a general interest columnist, right? He's going to write about all of them. But you're probably going to focus more on the sports and the players that have the biggest following, right? Like those, not for clicks, but because of the greatest interest to your audience, right?

Like, it's a fine line. I'll, I'll say this as someone has been doing this a long time, and including before the internet was a thing, right? I worked for newspapers when they were just newspapers, and you didn't know what people were reading because there were no clicks. There was no internet. You don't even know which section of the paper. They might have bought the paper for the fucking classified ads or to, you know, the comic strip,

as opposed to the sports. You don't know what they're reading. but you do calibrate every day. I want to write the stories or the pieces that I feel like are going to have the most interest in our audience. And that's a guess. That's especially in a pre-internet era, you're just guessing. You don't know what people actually are going to read or even if they're going to make it to the end of the story. But so all that said, is, are the Sixers a major story always in Philly, especially during the Embed era?

yes, of course, is Embed the most important figure in their, in that story. Yeah. So my understanding is Marcus Hayes has written about Embed a lot, critically, a lot. So yeah, I think both of you are on the nose when you say like there's probably a buildup here. But you could have that buildup. And if you never end up referencing Joel Embedd's, you know, brother and son and how sensitive of a matter that is. And again, people in Philly tell me, if you know Joelle at all, you know how sensitive he is about this, how much his brother meant to him, how hard that hit him when his brother died. You just got to, you got to know that as a local columnist, too.

And so, yeah, I think probably there was build up there based on just being critical. And then you throw in this other element of getting too personal and on a really sensitive topic. That puts it over the top. But Roger, I think you made a great point, though. Like, the ideal situation when they first have to see each other to try to talk this out, probably shouldn't be in the postgame locker room. Probably should just be in some other room entirely moderated by some other folks need to be in the room. Security definitely needs to be in the room.

Easy for us to kind of second guess this after the fact, I guess, but also those things seem kind of common sense, right? So, yeah. What's the closest to either of you of you of every? ever come to, I'm not saying you ever came close to putting hands on a reporter or on fans or anything else. But listen, you guys endure a lot. I know this because especially back in the day when we were, when our press seats were closer, when I was sideline and baseline. And so I'm close enough to hear all the bullshit that the people behind me, all the fans are yelling at players. There's a lot of stuff that goes on. There's racist stuff. There's family stuff.

The fans cross the line all the time. I'm not trying to make this about fans instead of media, but I'm just saying broadly speaking, the job you guys have, you are subject to a lot of verbal abuse on a nightly basis. So whether it was something that somebody wrote or something that somebody said, like what's,

if you're comfortable saying it, like what's the closest you've ever gotten to wanting to react? And what are those moments like? Austin, you want to go? There you go ahead, man. I don't, no. I don't really.

I think as far as it relates to the media, I always felt like, you know, I understood, you know, there were a lot of things I did not understand, and I made a lot of mistakes. But I did understand that the media was much better and much more useful to me as an ally than a, than, you know, a combatant. So like, I made it my point to have great relationships with the media.

Like, I never rose to the level of play where it made sense for you in your local paper to just be beating a dead horse about how bad I was, even when I was bad. Like, there were much better players on team. So I didn't have to live in that space. But I generally just had really good relationships with reporters, and I'd give them the time, and I talked to them,

and I got to know some of them, and I'm still friends with a lot of them. So I can't speak to that. I did have interactions with fans, though. I don't remember verbatim, but I had some exchanges with people that would sit like right behind your bench and like make it their their mission to like heckle you the whole game like you're not even fucking here to watch the game. You're just here to like talk shit to me the whole game. So I had a few choice exchanges

but I never really wanted to get like in the stands. I think there was a time. I want to say it was 02 because we had played the Lakers. So we had a Christmas Day game in L.A. in 02 and my dad was in the stands with my sister and my mom and he got into an altercation with someone who kept dumping his popcorn on them or something like that. And luckily for me, like security took care of it. But that was about as close as I ever came to wanting to be in the stands or confront someone physically that was in the stands. Awesome. Yeah. I've had a couple with fans. If I ever felt like they're crossed in the line to where they're just like saying, nasty stuff. I either A,

ignored it or B, I just have like the ref kick him out. Like there's a couple of videos of showing me having the ref go over there and be like, yo, just get this guy out of here. Um, you know, usually I did relish sometimes going back and forth as a fan. Uh, again, I never had like, you know, I was a role player in my entire career. I never was a Jewel Embed who was just getting criticized every single

walking minute of my life. You know what I mean? That's just a whole different level of pressure. Uh, but when I played for my father, I was under a lot of ridicule. Um, and there was a writer. I don't know if he's, his name was Michael Eves. Eves. I think he's ESPN now.

He does like golf channel stuff. Not a writer, but on air. Michael Eves is a broadcaster at ESPN. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He wrote some bullshit article about my, uh, uh,

personality about and how I walk around the practice facility and he's calling me like a whiny tyrant. Like just like just completely out of bounds, out of line stuff. Uh, when he's never been in our locker room and never had conversations with me personally. And it started a lot of stuff when I was there.

It was just like, and I don't even know if it was an article. It was like a, he wrote this entire column on his Facebook at the time. And like it went viral. I mean, this is before like viral was viral. But, you know, we had Instagram and stuff. So it was starting to like circulate. And it was just a really weird bullshit article. And I really wanted to bump into him for like years.

Like I, not from a physical standpoint. I would never want to hurt the guy or put my hands on him. I just want to give a piece of my mind, the more so understand where he was coming from writing that. And, you know, it's just such a weird art. Do you want to write about my performance as a player? Then I don't care. I'll take it.

Good, bad. That comes with the job. When you start dissecting me as a human being, never having a conversation with me, I just think it's lazy. It's like the epitome of lazy journalism. You've never had a conversation with you. You never had a conversation with you.

You never had a conversation with you. But you're writing an article dissecting who I am as a person. It was a very hurtful thing to do. and I remember it pissed me off, it pissed my pops off. No one on the team liked him. He was like a guy that was always kind of prowing around, this Michael guy.

I don't know, he now whispers golf stuff now when golf's on. I don't know what the hell he's doing. But he was very negative during the time piece when I was there. And I actually ended up just kind of letting it go because usually a lot of those things aren't even worth getting into it. And then before you know it last year, when I was doing stuff with ESPN,

I was doing Sports Center with the guy. And I just sat there, we're live on TV, and I'm with him. And I thought about it for one second. It just went back in my mind. I was like, because I didn't even remember. They said his name.

I go, wait, wait, that's the guy. That's the guy. And he's like, hey, Austin, how are you doing, man? I was just like, wait, I didn't say anything about my mind.

I'm like, you're the dude that wrote that one article about me that one time. And that's why, for me, it's never worth burning bridges or like, you know, going crazy over it. Because even though it was a very insensitive article,

again, it's nothing like what Joel is going through. It just wasn't worth me getting into it with. Sometimes people do things and make mistakes, and he might have had a source that it was personal, and he wrote it, and, like, you know, things just happen. I know I've said things and done things plenty of times in my NBA career that I look back now, like, what was I thinking?

So, like, you know, I ended up not doing anything, and then we actually ended up having a good segment, and, like, it was very positive. I was just like, see, that's why I don't do that. You know what I mean? And I don't wish anything negative upon the guy. He's obviously on TV still doing his stuff with the golf channel, crushing it, and I wish the best for him.

Like, but that's why. one of those incidents where I was like, man, I didn't really like that article. The other stuff people write, I don't really care. Fans, I have too many examples. I used to really like enjoy sometimes going back and forth with somebody as long as it didn't distract me. But yeah, that's just part of the game. Real Ones is brought to you by FanDuel.

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it's not necessarily about writers per se or fans per se. It could be just be anybody. Like, the league and your teams know you're going to have moments where people get out of line. People are going to say something. And it might get to a point where, you know, it escalates or whatever. Like what is what's the general like how like it is this an annual thing? Do the teams like tell you like here's how we handle these situations or hey you should always just tell security about the fan? Yeah. It's like saying what it is like yeah what's like what's the general guideline for for players about how to handle these things officially. They weren't they weren't I mean to my knowledge it could have changed like as as you know Austin finished up but like we

We had a lot of seminars, if you will, people coming around with financial literacy and domestic, you know, a lot of things, relationship advice and financial advice and, you know, guns and stuff like that. I never really recall ever having one in regards to like security in arena, fan access. Like I didn't, but it was always like common sense, at least for most of us. Maybe these were individual conversations they were had. Like, don't get security. That's why he's there, you know?

Yep. Same thing with us. We never really had any seminars about that either. It was more so just like, you know, it is common sense. First off, the fans aren't ever going to do anything. They usually speak from a place of where they feel protected because they think we're not going to respond. Have to have, 90% of the time, they talk thinking we're not going to do anything.

When you look at them, they usually go, oh, they're like, Oh, me? You heard that? Like, that's usually 90% of the responses when you, like, come back at them. And then the other one is like someone came there, like, Roger said, to do it. Like, they came there to mess with you. And now with social media, they'll do it with a camera behind you. And they're like, you know, let me get this moment. So like half of the time, you'll like get ready to say something. And it's like, man, get out of here. I'm not giving you that. So, you know, that's, that's, yeah, they usually, if it's a problem, you go to tell Tim Security time to get them out of here. I mean, that's just like the simple, you know, going in the stands or something like that, it would have. have to be like a family member getting disrespected like he said to where you're like

thinking about okay I'm playing basketball but basketball is not important to my family if someone's out there messing with my fiancee or my family or my kids or something like that like I'm gonna hop up there and see what's going on you don't know if y'all remember a long time ago I think it was Antonio Davis for the Bulls his wife was having that issue and that motherfucker walked ran up them staircase that guy was like whoa you know what I mean like you ain't want to see

his big ass coming up those stairs he didn't want no problems with him and it ended quickly I don't even know if he got suspended. Like, that was before the malice thing. So they didn't even have, like, a president to, like, know how to, like, respond to that. With everything that's happened now, you know, yeah, you try to just keep it, P, man. I'm not, it's not usually worth anything getting too serious about. Yeah, and I'm with Austin. Like, I think there was a real difference between the, the, the person that sits behind the bench or close enough with an earshot of the bench just to, just, you know, they're there to do that. Like, you know, there's a, you know, there's a,

a difference between them and then the random that's sitting court side or two rows back that's talking shit to you the whole game because I'm with awesome like I like that guy. Yeah. That guy or girl, I like them because I was always, almost always in the villain role. And a lot of times that just gave me just a little bit of spark. So I'd engage that in a way that, you know, kind of lit my fire to try to get you to shut up. So now I can come back down to court and now I got something to say to you.

And so those I kind of liked a little bit. Like they got me going. They didn't intend to be the most abusive, personal, like, racist type of things, you know? But like sometimes the one that sits next to the bench, they might not be as loud yelling it. But they're there for a reason. Like those are the ones that might have got a little bit more, you know, personal. Yep. Is that the line, by the way?

I was curious about this. Like, because I've seen people, guys, I've seen people. really rationalize Joel getting physical. Like, uh, well, yeah, you're not supposed to get physical, but you can't write that. And because he did it, it's justified,

which, you know, if you start justifying that, it's a real slippery slope, right? We as a society have decided that it's not, um, it's not our societal norms. It's not, it's not within the law, depending on how much you get, you know, physical with somebody. But like, we have decided as a society,

generally speaking every day in public, certainly in the confines of, of, of the NBA or any other business, uh, you just don't put hands on people. And, uh, just because they said something offensive or personal doesn't justify.

No. And it's a so, okay, so it's a slippery slope, right? So, but we've all written things in my business. We've all written things that are critical. It might be because you went two for 18.

It might be because, you know, um, whatever. Something about a, you know, a player's bad work habits or whatever. There's going to be some things that are going, that we are going to write that are going to piss off guys in your position is the line. It's easy to say the line is what happened in Marcus Hay's column, right?

You just invoke the guy's dead brother to basically say you're letting his dead brother down. Like, that's pretty freaking low. Okay. That's an obvious one in a lot of ways. But like, I don't know. Where is the line? Like, what, you know, how far does somebody have to go before you feel like, you know what? Not that you're going to, I'm not saying that you get this.

you just say it's justified to lay hands, but just more of a, what crosses the line? Keep the family out. Yeah. Just keep my family out of it. So that's it. Like, I've referenced this before. I don't know if you were on Austin. And this, it's a, might not be the same, but I, this is what would happen for me in the

media. This did not play out in the media. This happened, I've told this story before. It happens in front offices where you get Intel, right? So like Austin, I'm with the calves. You're still playing. We're, we have a database. with Intel. So like at the at the arena before the game as I'm watching you warm up and stuff. I'm chatting

up you know the clipper staff or whatever the Denver Nugget staff and any any tidbit they'll give me on on Austin that I think is worthy of putting in your intel file I'll pop it in there. So then if we ever want to trade for you or think about bringing you in as a free agent not only you're on court stuff but in your background like we'll be able to go to these intel reports that we get and kind of see what kind of person you are, right? So like, unbeknownst to me as I'm toiling around and trying to get used to our intel system, they haven't deleted the intel on me, right, when I'm with Cleveland.

So I read a report that someone wrote in Charlotte about me and it attacked like my relationship with my wife. It attacked the legitimacy, like my kids. It was a scathing kind of thing. And outside of the fact that like, I don't know who the fuck wrote that or what they were on that day or when they caught me. Like how credible that is. I think for me, for something to raise to that level in the media, it would have to take it to family.

Like you'd have to be bringing people into that. They don't necessarily have to be deceased. Like, but my family don't work here. Like my family ain't got shit to do with this. So once you find the need to bring them into an article in a negative light, like if you're talking about the birth of my son and we have. him right before we played the Lakers and stuff like that. Like, I get that.

But if you're going to start using them as some reason for me not doing my job and speculating at that, I think for me it rises to the level of like, hey, man, we got to have a conversation about this shit. Awesome. In your case, the family's baked in, right? So, like, that was going to happen. Yeah, it was weird for a little bit there because people would say stuff about me and my pops and that's my father.

So I'm sensitive of that. And I'm sure it was for him vice versa, me being a son. I bet it was even worse. but we kind of knew what we signed up for. You know what I mean? We've had many talks, you know, even before I played for the Clippers about if and when that were to ever happen, you know, would we be able to handle it?

So we kind of knew what was going to come with it. Again, I didn't really get bothered too much unless it felt just like over-the-top personal. But even then, it would have been a verbal exchange I have with someone. Me putting hands on someone just is out of the question. The only time I'm putting hands on someone would be another player. That way I know I'm not getting sued by him. You know what I mean?

Like, I, I, that's not, you know, and that would be during the game and that would have to be like, you know,

something emotional. Like, I'm not going to go put my hands on something that could, I mean, look at this storm has created. I mean, that one incident now is carried over for like days and days and days

where now Joel has to keep hearing about this article that he doesn't even want to think about that was written and this. And now, because he put his hand, so it's like, it's only made it worse. So I,

I've never wanted to do that. You know, anytime I've always tried to fight back, it ended up making the situation more big. big, it more complex. I've definitely been, you know, sensitive. I had comments to say about even some former teammates who said stuff about me and my pops. I snapped back at them and it ended up going, you know, blowing up. And I was like, I didn't even want that to happen. And now I'm giving this guy even my tie. Like, why did I do that? So. So. And it's, yeah, go ahead. My bad. The only, the only,

the only circumstance where I could see, um, myself siding with Joelle. And by all accounts, that's not what happened here would be one of those situations. situations where, and we all know those reporters that they're out there, think they're tough, they talk about like, you can see me in person, like, you know, it rises to the level of, you know that guy, right? It's personal when he writes. He's like, oh, you can see, okay, boom, he's there. And then I'm standing in a locker room where I'm Joelle in this instance.

Like, I'm there in a locker room, mine in my business. I kind of pan left or whatever. And you're approaching me in a way where I don't know what I'm about to get. from you. If that happens, I can see the hand out. Like, hey, yo, back the fuck up. Right. And if, if I catch you like in the chest or something like that, you just got shoved. But what I'm saying to you is motherfucker, I don't know you. And you're walking up on me really quick and we got a history. Right. So, like, I got three boys and there's some rules of engagement, right? Like, we're not, we're not going to hit anyone first, right? But if someone takes a swing at you, you're greenlit.

There might be some ramifications, but do what you got to do. If someone has, you know, messed with your body a few times and you've asked them to stop a couple times and they won't stop, you might have to tighten him up. There might be some ramifications. You might have to deal with that. The last would be if someone is walking up in your personal space and you have a problem with them before and you are not sure of their intentions, go ahead and do what you got to do and we'll deal with it after that. So like that would be the only situation, but by most accounts, that's not what happened here. Yeah, yeah, agreed. It's interesting because I think I think these things are a lot more heightened now than back in my,

my, my, my, my, my, like team beat writing days. And a lot of that is like, most of these things end up,

they do get caught on on camera. Everyone's got an iPhone. It's actually, it's frankly shocking guys that there was not a single iPhone out, filming this in the locker room after. Some of it is like Kyle Lowry was apparently in the press conference room. So some of the reporters were in there for Kyle Lowry. I think Tyrese might have been doing something in the hall or,

So like there wasn't a lot of media in there and it probably all happened so fast that nobody even thought to to record it. But, you know, I started covering the Lakers in 97. And so for the seven years of covering Shaq and Kobe, this is all free. This is most, this is a part of this was pre cell phone. I had a fucking like pager when I first started covering them. And then eventually like an Nokia brick phone, right? And then the years I'm covering the Nix, eventually the iPhone comes along somewhere in there. But it wasn't like, there's so much more that is seen and heard now than back in the day.

There's also a higher sensitivity overall now. But Mike, I started thinking about like, did I have anything even remotely like this? And I don't want to get into the total details of this. But like, Kobe motherfucker be pretty good a couple of times. There was one time in particular, we crossed wires, something I wrote. I to this day don't think his reaction was justified, but it's neither here nor there. but like he got on me to the point that I was rattled, right? Like we'd known each other for five, six years by then.

I'd been covering them every day. We had a good relationship. Sometimes things go go haywire. I was rattled. I was seriously, it's probably as rattles as I've been as a reporter covering the league because he was that pissed off. He didn't touch me though. He said a lot of shit.

And it took weeks before we finally were able to like, you know, get this thing back together. And we were, you know, we had a great relationship all the way up until, you know, until the end. And, but yeah, like, it happens. Wires get crossed. Or something is written in a way that is maybe not as graceful as you thought it was. Maybe it was, you know, in this case, I wrote something he just didn't want out there. And yeah, you know, Shaq, Shaq, too, but Shaq would be more playful.

Like, Shaq wants picked me up and threw me over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes. And like today probably people would be like, oh my God, you can't touch like, no, I mean, it's shat. He's just fucking around. That's also the difference too, man. We're in the era now, bro. We're like everything is is critiqued and recorded and you can't say anything and you can't, I mean, everything is protected and everyone's offended. And everyone, you know what I mean? So it's it's tough, man.

by the way, you know, you would think most of these dudes are used to being talked about because we grew up with social media. Now, instead of having your first negative article written about you in your second, third year in college or in the NBA, most of these kids are 14 years old and have, you know, 15 comments under their page that are negative. You know what I mean? Because they have two million followers in eighth grade now. Like, it's just, you know, you would hope that now with the social media training, that's what most of these seminars are about now. Instead of it being like, you know, those. old ones were like, yo, if a girl's at your thing

and she's saying you to come back, you make sure you use a condom, you know what I mean? Like that? That's like the old seminar in the NBA and like you got eight dudes in there with ten baby mommas and no was listening. Now they have like now you have, it's all like social media training because this is like what's taken grip of our world. I would hope

that most of these guys are used to people. I mean, Joel Embed has to look at his comments sometimes on Instagram, like good God. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's not like he's immune to this. So that's how you know, the line clearly is if you're talking about family and you're someone we consider a professional, it's honestly a compliment to the guy, Marcus, because if that was a fan saying something about him or someone on his Twitter, he wouldn't even have cared. But when you have the professional,

like Howard yourself, when you are a part of the organization, not even if you aren't, and this guy wasn't, but you are a sports writer and you have a following and you have a responsibility to report the good and bad. The family aspect, when it's personal, we just feel like it just has no place in basketball. So that guy crossed that line. Clearly, that's the line. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the line. Yeah. No, I thought well put. All right. It's like more things I want to. It's like, go ahead, Russia. Like you can learn a lot. Maybe no family, no kids. Like no wives, no kids. No wives, no kids. Like the rest of this, everything, you know what I mean? Like the rest of it's right. Unless you're doing like a human interest story about literally about the family, right?

That's right. Yes. And listen, I will throw on one of the caveat. out though on that, right? There are divorces. There are domestic issues. That's different. But even then, even then you're walking a tight robe. Last year, Damien Lillard was going through all type of stuff in the playoffs. You didn't see someone come out and just start talking nonsense because it's just like, what are we doing here? No. And I think, right. And I think like the good, the constructive version of that Austin, I'm glad you brought up Dame, the constructive version of that is in the midst of it all going on. I don't think anybody was trying to do like, oh, sources say he's going through a divorce and that's why he's having a rough season. It was

after the fact when Dame talked about it and you can contextualize why his first year, Milwaukee was so difficult. Oh, no, it wasn't just that he was adjusting to playing outside of Portland for the first time in his career. It wasn't just that he was adjusting to playing with Janus and trying to figure out the balance, coaching, change, everything else. It was also, he's going through some stuff personally, and it helped contextualize and humanize the player. It's not being used as, as, you know, it's not being weaponized. It's being used as context. And so, like, yeah, there's a personal stuff is sometimes fair game in the right context and with the right presentation, right? No doubt.

All right, real quick. Vince Carter, Jersey retired over the weekend. A lot of people felt it was long overdue. There are some people who felt like maybe actually, you know, the Raptors didn't need to go to this place with the player who forced his way out. And, you know, it's funny how these things changed, right, guys? Because like in real time, you know, it was Vince Carter's not, you know, didn't get them far enough, right? and then forced his way out.

But time heals all wounds, and we all know what he meant to that organization and to basketball in Canada, period. It's like goes way beyond just what he did, you know, for the Raptors or their fans. But I don't know. Raja, you played against him. Austin, I think you both overlapped because

he both played against him very long time. That's how great, that's how not, he played, Raja played against like the actual Vince. You know what I mean? Like half man, half amazing. Like Vincanity. I played against half. man you know what i mean i played against the uh you know he was more he could still don't just didn't

he can still jump higher than me even at at 39 that's what's insane but uh yeah yeah now i'll let roj speak on him first yeah well look i vince is from daytona um and um i was at five star i think and you know there was like this this uh shot at the five star like commotion yeah shout out the five star right like we There was like Garfinkel and the boys. Like there was this commotion going on. And I wandered over and there was this kid that was like, I mean, elbow over the rim. And this was before high school.

Like high school kids now, that's commonplace. But like when I came up, you don't see too many mofos with like their elbows above the rim, like doing the stuff that he was doing. And that's when I first became aware of him. Obviously watched him at North Carolina. And then my first introduction to him as a pro was, like my first experiences was at 0-1 Eastern Conference semifinal,

which I still maintain was the best, the best individual one-on-one. And I know both of those teams were great. They both had players that did all kind of things that helped them win. But witnessing AI versus Vince in that series in the way that both of them just went crazy offensively, it was still the best one-on-one display over the course of seven games I've ever seen in my life.

Like, I don't give a shit. You could, you can tell me any number of great ones, and I'd be like, yeah, that was pretty dope. I grew up an MJ fan. I watched MJ against everybody. That Vince AI was incredible. And, you know, then I got to really play against him because I wasn't playing a lot then. And he was one of the rare dudes that fell into the category of you could do everything right.

And it might not matter. Like, you could execute that possession. the exact way that you would need to execute that possession defensively, and he'd just hang for one split second longer than you could keep your hand up, and he'd shoot it right before he hit the floor and it was cash. And, you know, that's the way I remember him. Like when he wanted to, like, I mean, there was almost nothing you could do to stop it when he wanted to. Yeah, Vince's dunking was so elite that for people in my generation,

or from my time, people kind of miss his overall level of skill. People don't realize that like the whole back 10 of his career, this guy became a phenomenal deep three-point shooter. You know what I mean? Like people don't realize

that this guy was averaging 25, 26, 28 points per game. They weren't 14 dunks. You know what I mean? He had, people would go for that one dunk because it was worth seeing that one dunk, but he had the fadeaway. I mean, he was one of the original players

compared to MJ. People don't even remember, like, they used to compare him to MJ coming out. And even when he started getting things going in Toronto, like, he came on the scene and, like, bursted the NBA. I mean, he was the most popular player. During that year when he did the dunk contest, every game he went to, the crowds would come and they just wanted to see this guy just jump one time. You know, they would wait 48 minutes just hoping for a breakaway. When you was huge on YouTube, man. I go back and watch all this stuff, Synergy.

You go back and watch, like, when he would get a steal or someone get a steal. The sound of the crowd getting antsy of seeing him knowing that he's just about to do a dunk just meant something. And he's also part of that cloth where Stars did dunk contests, right? Stars did, like, we don't have that no more, man. Like, these guys don't want to do it. You know, they'd rather be seen in like a Gucci outfit or whatever style. You know, whatever they got going on.

He's part of that, like, that era that we grew up on. You know, like you said, Howard, what he meant to just overall Toronto sports? It wasn't a basketball country or a city and definitely the whole country in general. You know, when you talk about Canada, it's, you know, with hockey. And, you know, basketball wasn't really familiar there until this young guy comes there and is able to take what wasn't really a popular sport there and became a phenomenon. You know, what it is now where they have one of the most iconic fan bases when they have the appropriate team. And that's usually because of events, you know, that documentary they did on them.

I don't know if it was Showtime or who did it, Netflix. Somebody did a documentary on him a couple years back, and it was phenomenal. I love that Vince has his jersey hung up. We get so caught up in like ring culture, but there are so many players who have done so much for an organization, man, and like put blood, sweat and tears. That's what the irony, the irony of his jersey being retired that night, even though he didn't win a ring for them, but he did so much for their city and like Drake being there and being happy, but then coming at Demar de Rosen saying he'll pull his jersey down

when he did the exact same thing, bro. He never won a championship, but he's done a million things to that city and he tried every year to go to the playoffs and performed at a high level. Demar de Rozzi's going to have his jersey up there one day too. And for him to be like, I'll pull it down. It's just like, bro, what are we talking about here?

First up, you can't. Secondly, you don't have that pool. And three, it's like, who are we kidding, man? Damar de Rosen is a beloved person in Toronto. He's definitely going to have his jersey up there next defense. And so was Vince, man. And, like, for people, like, he shouldn't have his jersey hung up. He didn't win a championship.

It's like, my guy. Like, if he doesn't have his jersey hung up, then, like, who, like, what are we talking about? You know what I mean? I'm very happy. The best part about that was seeing his emotions. You know what I mean? You don't see a lot of that from Vince. Seeing him the whole weekend, be emotional crying, having his kids.

You see, like, what it means to these athletes, man, and like the power organizations have when they give their flowers to a player. Because a lot of these guys feel like they're not cared about because they are traded or cast it off or he forced himself out and things don't end right. When you kind of come back home and there's like a hug, it's like a hug. It's like a big, you know, I forgive you hug mutually. And, you know, it didn't end well, but we love you and we appreciate you. You see it, man.

I saw years, years back with T-Mack. We used to have feelings with T-Mack here. It didn't end well here in Orlando. I'm an Orlando kid. T-Mack is like our goat here in Orlando. And it ended weird. And at one point in time, they like embraced him in the Jersey and all that stuff. And now it just means a lot.

So I think it was really cool that they did that for Vince and it was well deserved. Shout out to Vince Carter. No. Well said, Austin. That was great. No, I absolutely. And it's, it's cool covering the league to be able to see like the full arc of these storyline sometimes, right?

Where a guy can go from, you know, all right, you're our savior. You're going to take us to the promised land. You're going to be our guy. And then fans and organizations sour on a player, player ass out, or the team trades them, you know, even if they didn't want out. And you go through all these different emotions, all these different phases, it's good to see that it is a time heals all wounds kind of thing. Where at the end, it's like, you know what?

Whatever we went through, whatever we felt at that moment, this guy meant absolutely everything to this organization. And you see it, you know, it takes some time sometimes, right? You know, Shaq in the Magic, you know, T-Mac in the Magic. Like, there's plenty of those kinds of examples. You know, you wonder how, you know, if, you know, you mentioned Blake Griffin earlier, Austin, like Blake and the Clippers, if that'll ever be healed, who knows. Right, right. There's a lot of examples.

It's good to see that, yeah, but it's good to see that most of the time, once everybody's had a chance to kind of, like, assess the full breadth of a guy's career and situations, everybody forgives everybody. And you could just honor a guy for what he meant. And, um, 100%. The Vince one was awesome. That was great. It was absolutely deserved, absolutely warranted. And he's just a really good dude. Like, you guys know him probably better than I do.

But every interaction I've ever had with Vince has been really positive. So it was very cool. All right, before we go, mailbag. Austin, you want to stick around for the mailbag? Let's do it. I'm here. All right. Cool.

Producer Cliff. We got producer Cliff, which is like, I think we've set some sort of, like, Roger, tell me, is this a real one's record for, like, most producers in, like, a five-show span? No question. Is it me? No, well, it could be. I mean, it could be you and I together, any number of reasons, but yes, the record nonetheless.

Producer Cliff sitting in. I'm about to say, I got to chill out, man. Y'all good in my book, all right? All right. Appreciate it. Tell HR, I'm actually just great to work with, please, because I'm a little worried right now. I got you. All right.

This first question is for Raja. What current NBA player most reminds you of your game? Thanks, Anthony. Oh, man. Well, the most logical, most natural cop would probably. might be Shea Gilges Alexander. I mean, we just... I mean, the similarity is just...

Why not say Yukic? You know what's funny? You know, it's funny? We talked about this before with my boy, and I was like, you know if Raj played in today's era? You would have been like a $90 million player, like $100. Like Jailet Suggs just signed a $150 million contract. He defends and shoots threes.

Lou Dort signed a $90 million contract. You were out there guarding like Kobe Bryant and all these guys and like hitting threes. Like you would have been like $100 million. Isn't it crazy? Like the NBA is. I know, I know you think that's supposed to make me feel better. It does not.

It was. It is crazy though. It's bananas. It's bananas. Listen, real quick, I was sitting in the, when the contracts really changed, I was sitting my first year out, second year out. I was sitting with the calves, free agency open. We're all sitting around a table.

We're about to shoot at these targets. and Damari Carroll had been my young bull in Utah. And I love Damari. And Damari's name, like, it popped up somebody. It was like, Damari Carol, four years 60. And I remember looking around that table, like, good for him, good for him, get the bag. But I was like, that's the going rate now for like,

fuck me, man. Yeah, bro. But also, like there was somebody sitting there when I got paid, whatever I got paid, thinking the same thing works. Yeah, that's how it works. That's how it works. It's crazy.

I'll tell you, it does not work that way in my business. So player cop, SGA. Yeah, SGA. I mean, we're going to stick. No, I mean, like, Lou Dorts interested. Like, I think real talk, there are a lot of dudes, and I thought about this a little bit. There are a lot of dudes that are 3 and D guys,

but because the game is so wide open and they're not as many, like, they're more actions now than plays. A lot of those dudes that are 3&D can do more with the ball than I could. They just, because they're asked to do more with the ball than I could. The one that I think kind of is like me a little bit as I watch is the kid from the heat. What's his name?

Haywood, is it Highsmith? Haywood, Highsmith? Yeah, because when you watch him, like he doesn't do a ton with the ball. Like a lot of what he does is off of like, you guys create, I'll finish. And at least later in my career, like the meat of my best years was kind of doing that.

Yeah. All right, what else we got, Cliff? All right, second year players, all caps. Evening, Ladge, just a quick email to ask your opinion of the leap that some of the second-year players are making. Colaleby, Miller, Grady D, and obviously Chet. Wimbi has struggled so far, but will clearly be the man. My question is, where do you think that the 2023 draft class will end up an all-time list?

Obviously, 84, 96, and 03 are seen as the best classes, but do you think that the 23 class has a chance? Obviously, I'm cheating slightly with Chet as he's a year older than that, but it's my question, so who cares? Thanks, Jens. Rob from England. Okay, Rob. This is where we're missing producer Kerm a little bit because he would have read that in a British accent.

I'm about to say, I can't do it, I can't do it. My ex is too Philly for all the British thing, man. I can't, I can't do it. Most of us shouldn't attempt it. I admire Kerm for doing it. 2023 draft class where it ends up, it's way too soon, right? And Chet is not in that draft class, even if he was a rookie. So, like, I'm sorry, Rob from England, but I'm tossing.

The draft class wasn't even like that. It was just wimby. It just went so far And a couple other guys There's a couple guys that it sprung about But comparing it to like a 96 or a 2003 Is like ridiculous You know

And Wimby's I still got to see more from him I can't I love his game I think he's a stud I just I can't stand how far out he plays in the basket He's just I have no problem with him shooting threes But I would like to see him more closer To the Anthony Davis side than like people trying to make him become a Kevin Durant

Like it's just two different Two different players man So I don't know. I don't want to compare it to those classes yet for me personally. Yeah. Too soon. Too soon. But Rob from England, hit us back with that email again in like two, three years. Yeah. No doubt. All right. Last one. All right, last one. Suppose the NBA elect coaches, not players fight. If you time traveled everyone to their prime fighting years, so no 74-year-old pop, who would win in a fight? RMJ, yeah, whoever RMJ is. This is from RMJ equals.

H on Twitter, who's a great NBA fan. I hear from him every so often. He hit me with this on Twitter. I said, throw it in the mailbag. We'll get to it. So I can't, I think Austin, for back background, I think this was spurred by our discussion last week of Joe Missoula saying he wants fighting back in the NBA. He also wanted everybody to have five coins where you could just go and drop a coin on somebody and now you have to fight them. I saw that. So I think it came from that. So I think the idea would be all right so head coach time traveling no 74 year old pop is as he said pop in his prime any current coaches in their prime who wins in a fight or maybe put it another way like who do you not want to fight i would put my pops in there for sure i'm not even being biased if we're

talking current coaches we got a lot of guys that didn't even play to be completely honest not that that matters but we're talking about more small you know i'm not like worried about running up on like a you know a pop or even though he's a best coach of all time like you know these aren't guys I would put in a fist fight my father I think former former player for sure has to be him or chauncey or jason kid at this point right now it'd be jason kid chancy my pops last year if darvin ham when he wasn't he would have been the guy because that's that's a that's a big dude right there but with him being an assistant if we're talking head coaches it I would go my pops first I would go chants T2, J-Kid 3.

All right. I like that. You know, listen, I know we can't use and God rest his soul, but Jerry Sloan was with all of the action at all times. Like the man had hands like meat hook. Like he was, he was really, I would not have fought him. And I, like, I did, I would want no piece of Jerry. But I think the answer here, honestly, is T. Lou.

And I'll tell you why. I think T. Lou, I spent some time with him in Cleveland. He told me that his first sport, or he grew up at least boxing. Oh, there it is. And I think he's got some trained background in that. If it weren't for that, Austin, I think you're right. Like, your dad's Chicago.

Like, I'm also looking at you played in where you're from, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm saying, he's a Chicago dude. He played in the air where they fought a lot. Like, you can go see pictures of him fighting bird and like, you know, he played with Charles Oakley and like, you know, Mason and that was back when you got laid out. Yeah, they used to get laid out. He got his hips though now

Or my pops I don't know if you see him walk around man That fucker looked like a robot The way he's been like he can't You can't I don't know how agile So he got to get you in a phone But this is a phone booth fight

Yeah you gotta be in my pops Otherwise if you got some An octagon or a ring He might be in trouble there I might go someone younger Joe Mazul is like he'd be on your leg biting you or something I don't know why I feel like that dude

That's funny I don't want to fight him either He looks like he'd just be like a rat I mean he may be smaller, but I don't think I want to mess with Joe Mozilla. He seems still scary to me. I don't want to mess with him. A sneaky one. I'll give you a sneaky one.

And I don't know why. In prime, Rick Carlisle. That's who I was going to name. Yeah. You know what? I heard that guy tapes his ankles before every game. And just off the merit of that cycle shit, I don't know if I'd want to mess with him either. Yeah.

Rick Carlisle tapes his ankles now? I heard he tapes his ankles now before the game. Yeah. still sometimes. Bro, that is shot. That is incredible. Wow. He's ready for the action.

Yeah. Do we think, do we think that we think, um, what we think about Tom Thibodeau? What are we, what are we like, like, just arnery as shit or you think it's like, yeah. Tim's was on my list. Tim's was on my list. I, I don't, I don't think I want to met like. Also, by the way, prime Timbs.

If you've seen those old photos that circulate now and then of Tim's in the mullet. Yeah. See a big dude though? How big is he? No, you're not that big Got some heft to him But he's not real tall. Yeah, he's more of like a solid guy, but I wouldn't put him.

Yeah. Like Chonty Browns was a big point guard. You know what I mean? Like that's, Yeah. Choncy's in there. Yeah. Yeah.

And then Jake King got a little, got a little side to him too. We all know, you know. Yeah. I don't think I want to get on kids bad side. It's funny because guys, I was thinking about this partially through the lens of like personality. Like, Austin, your, your pop. is so great with us in the media. Like, oh, it's a doc such a nice guy. Like, I know like there's

the other side there, especially during his playing days. But like, I like, like, T. Lou, who I've met when he was a rookie. Like, I think Ty was just like the most, like, nicest guy, unassuming, really low key. I, I either didn't know or forgotten about the boxing training. So, yeah, I don't, I don't want to mess with that. But like, like, I feel like Ty's the kind of guy. Like, he wouldn't hurt a fly. He's just, he's just a good dude. Those are the ones you got to worry about. Yeah. It'd be the quiet ones, man. The most reserved guys are the ones usually that got the best,

the most calm, under pressure, quiet, you know, don't want to fight. Those are the ones usually don't want to fight, you know. From like Nebraska to somewhere like that. Where's he from? Where's he's from somewhere like? Yeah, he's been fighting his whole life. Yeah.

Missouri. Yeah, a little town of Missouri, I think. Yeah, he's been fighting, you know, all type of stuff. He's been fighting bad weather. He's been fighting. He's been fighting. He's been fighting. You know, poor infrastructure.

My man's been fighting all different types of things. You know what I mean? This is bigger than just hands. He's a fighter in general. Oh, man. Fair. That was a phenomenal question. That was great.

Thank you, RMJ equals H. Fantastic. Said your questions to real ones mailbag at gmail.com. I'm not going to say it three times again because I'm just going to end up like tongue-tying myself. All right. That's it for today. Austin Rivers. This was awesome, man.

Thanks for joining us for this question. you guys are fun to talk to. Yeah, man. Thanks for coming on, brother. Roger Howard Cliff. Thank you, Roger. We will be back Friday. Got another great guest lined up if we can keep the timing on track.

And hopefully we'll still have a democracy by then. Go vote, everybody. We'll see you later. Jesus. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-help.com.

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