The Ringer NBA Show - How Should Teams Build Around Their Young Stars Before It’s Too Late? | The Mismatch (Ep. 365)

Episode Date: January 8, 2019

Tom Thibodeau is out in Minnesota. So what does that mean for franchise cornerstone Karl-Anthony Towns (1:00)? Then we dive deep into how the Spurs have reinvented themselves by turning the clock forward and backward at the same time (18:25). Finally, we take stock of the upcoming “pre-agents” and what their franchises have to do to ensure they don’t walk (43:25). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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go to yahoo.com slash daily fantasy. Use promo code Yahoo 25 when you make your first deposit for $25 in free play. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Conflict, AKA Kevin Obama, aka Kevin O'Conert, aka Kevin O'Candyland. Kevin!

You just rattle them off, Chris. I love it. How are you doing? It was a year ago. Maybe a little less. A year ago. You fired Tom Tibido on this very program. Yeah.

And then came back and said, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was a little rash. I was. But fast forward. That was funny. I guess all great things come to an end as the Tom Tibido era in Minnesota is now done. And the way it all, I guess the timing of it all was what was shocking to me. I would love to see if Elias could look this up.

And if any, I wonder if any coach has ever been fired after a 22 point victory. Usually they at least wait for you to lose. But when you get fired after a 22 point victory, that's just the ultimate. This has nothing to do with performance. We just don't like you anymore. For sure. I mean, like we saw with Dwayne Casey that a coach can be fired even after winning coach of the year, right? I think maybe it was just about the timing about doing it.

It didn't matter if they won or lost that game because really does it? I mean, it shouldn't. It's about the process and about how the team feels things are going. So now and firing Tom Tibido in early January, you get a couple months to look at a 32-year-old intern-head coach in Ryan Saunders, son of Flip Saunders. So you get a look at him and you get a jump start on maybe talking to other candidates. Adrian Wardenowski, and I've heard the same reported that Fred Hoyberg is a top candidate for the Timber's. Woj also reported Monty Williams. So from Minnesota, they get a jump start looking at Saunders as well as thinking about other candidates

instead of riding it out with Tibbs. Because you also get to see how this offense might look at someone else running it with a more modern take. And now we saw why Tibbs wanted to hang on to Jimmy Butler, right? Yeah. I mean, it would help him keep his job, right? You know, if you're the coach slash GM, for him, you had a deal, Butler. And the guys that got, you know, it's not. They should have taken a deal earlier.

They could have gotten more had they not waited. But Covington and Sarich are solid. We'll get to Butler here in a little bit. But it's obviously so depressing from that angle of how this all happened. Because Kevin, it was just a year ago that we're talking about, man, you wouldn't want to see them in the playoffs because there is a chance that on any given night, they could have the two best guys on the court. performance-wise in Jimmy Butler and Carl Anthony Towns.

And they're the three-seed. They're the three-seed or the four-seed for the majority of the season until Butler goes down. And then it was a free fall towards the end of the season, but they still ended up making the playoffs. And now you fast forward and it's like, okay, where do you go? Where do you go from here? And if you could have made that work, you might have. if you could have made that all work and you could have made them all

cohesive, you know, the chemistry good, like playing together, whatever else with Tom Tibido as our coach, it's hard to imagine they couldn't be another home court advantage or fighting for home court advantage team when you're two best guys or Jimmy Butler or Carl Anthony

Towns. But that thing just fell apart completely. And that's after you made the playoffs for the first time in over a decade. This stuff is a razor thin margins for sure. That's why a lot of people within the organization were just stunned, right? I think right now, even after at Tuesday, now this happened on Sunday, a couple of days have passed, there's still uncertainty about what's going to happen moving forward. You know, that's the nature of the business.

It's just a shame. That's the way it is with so much uncertainty moving forward. And, you know, there was the report that Carl Anthony Towns was especially shocked. You know, I had heard him and Tibbs have gotten closer. I think it was last May. Zach Lowe reported on ESPN that Towns and the wolves were, quote, not in a good place internally. I think trading Butler made that better. And Towns has been unbelievable as of late, especially since the Butler trade overall, he's been better. But last six games or so, he's just been on an absolute tear.

So for the team, the players, the front office, the rest of the coaching staff, it's a little bit shocking because it's not like they've been horrible. They have the number nine defense since the trade happened, the number 12 offense. there's still a close to 500 team. I think this spoke to the front office wanting to, again, you know, get a look ahead of time at Saunders and think about other candidates ahead of time.

It's more about what may have been happening behind the scenes and what has happened over the past couple of years, more so than what was happening just the past six weeks or so. Well, and you also have the situation, and you do wonder after you have seen Doc Rivers and his power is being taken away and Tom Thibodeau and obviously now his power is being taken away, You saw Stan Van Gundy getting fired in Detroit. Budenholzer obviously went the wrong way in Atlanta when he took over personnel.

I do wonder if we are going to see the coach slash personnel guy again or if this is the last of it. It could be the end. I think it could be. We had an article on the ringer.com about that. And it's hard to foresee a owner give that much power to a candidate. unless he's done it over a long extended period of time. Like with Greg Popovich, like that type of coach,

a coach like that changes teams, then maybe you handle over. But there's still a GM there. You know what I'm saying? But unless a coach of that caliber changes places, like if five, 10 years from now, Eric Spolster is like,

like, I'm going to leave the heat or Brad Stevens is going to like, it's like, I'm leaving Boston. Maybe that level of coach you give it. Like when Doc left Boston in 2013, maybe that's where we see the next one. But giving it to Tom Tibido, who only had, you know, assistant coach experience and then a short head coach experience with the Chicago Bulls, maybe you're not going to give it to someone like that. I don't know.

Tibido, I mean, he was the number one seed in the east. I mean, he had some great years in Chicago. No doubt about it. Yeah. It was not like he was unworthy of being able to call his own shots, given his level of success. That's what I mean. Maybe he was, right? I think maybe you need to prove it for a far longer period of time.

I mean, he was in Chicago for five years. years, I believe. Longer I've been around this, the more I realize, while it does cause friction between who the coach wants to play and who the front office wants guys to play, it is two different skill sets. It just is. And to be able to be great at both of those would be very, very difficult. And it's also hard when a coach typically, you know, his goal is not necessarily with an eye to the future all of the time. It's winning. It's winning that. It's winning that. that night. I mean, good grief. What's the kid's name that's the third string point guard now on Minnesota? I still like him. Tyos. Tyos Jones. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm just saying

if you are, if you're in a different situation, like maybe there's more development of. And I don't know what he's going to end up being for his NBA career. But I also know he's been in a bad spot and, you know, it's whether, and then it's Ricky Rubio and then it's Teague and then it's Rose in front of him. And it's like, okay, which is it? Are we going to develop a first round pick and really throw them out there and see what we got going? Or am I trying to win that night? And obviously, the goal was always to win that night. Same thing you were talking about earlier this year when you wanted to see more of Josh Akogi. You know, you're running on two tracks here. And we have as of late for what it's worth. Part of that's because Covington's

been out with an ankle injury, but he was playing prior to that too. But, I mean, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about being able to work on two tracks, the future, and winning that night. And sometimes, sometimes you've got to take some losses in order, you know, for the future. And it's hard to be both of those positions. And so, I don't know, where do you go from here? When you hear the name Fred Hoyberg, I mean, when he got fired earlier this year with Chicago, I was like, what is the point?

Like, why? What? What are you firing him for? And I honestly, I'm sure there are Bulls fans that have strong opinions about this. I look at the situations that Fred Oyberg was put in and all these iterations of teams that he was given over time there. I have no idea if he's good. I really don't. I don't think anybody could have won in the situations that he was in with the rosters.

I mean, the one time he could have won with the Wade and Butler and Rondo team. He did win, and they were having playoff success until Rondo got out. But, I mean, he was awesome at Iowa State. You asked, what do you need to do? You need to build around Carl Anthony Towns. Like, you have a guy right now who is just playing on another level. Like, right now what we're seeing from him is what people imagined in their greatest fantasies when he was drafted with the number one pick. Over his last six games, Towns is averaging 29.7 points, 16 rebounds, 5.7.

assessed three blocks. And ever since that Butler trade, he's been better defensively as well, playing with more effort, playing with more focus. And we saw these flashes over the last half of that 2016-17 season before Butler was acquired

when he dropped 28, 13, 2, and 1. Kat has shown these just dominant flashes, the potential of being the best big man in basketball moving forward. He's still behind Anthony Davis and a couple other guys, but he's shown the flashes

that he's in, at least in that conversation. you need to build around him, Chris, right? You need to. I think he's shown as of late, especially when Jeff Teague and Derek Rose were out, that he can hand a little bit more of a playmaking role to. Here's a guy who could score all over the floor, who can playmake, who can do everything for you on the offensive end.

You need to build around him. And whether that means trading some guys and taking a step back for a couple of years and getting a high draft pick, or whether it means trying to shuffle the deck, whatever it is, it needs to be maximizing Carl Anthony. towns because I think he's their ticket to contention. What do you do coach-wise?

I'm not sure that matters quite as much as whatever the front office decides, but I do think Fred Hoyberg is a smart theoretical fit for the team. We need to see what Saunders does first, but I think when you think about Hoyberg's offense and what he wanted to implement in Chicago or what he did at Ohio State with motion-based concepts, I think that works for towns. And personality-wise, they're both kind of, you know, kind of two cool, chill guys. on the quiet side. I think that could work for towns as well.

That's why I think they do, they need to find a great perimeter player, you know, and that's hard to do. It's hard to do. But, I mean, that's what they need to do.

Because at the end of these games, it's very difficult for your big guy to close games for you. You got to have an awesome perimeter guy. And they did. And it worked for a while. And they were the three seed in the west, you know,

and obviously it all fell apart. But it's, it's scary, but it is like, if you could find, find a Jimmy Butler, not attitude-wise, but talent-wise type of guy, it would be great to pair it with towns. It's obviously the sadness of Wiggins not living up to potential because it would be great

if Wiggins was that guy. And I think once upon a time, we thought they've got their perimeter star and they've got their big guy star and this is going to be what you can build around going forward. But they got one. I mean, who do you view as the core of that team? It sounds like you view it as a core of one. Yeah, pretty much. And that's pretty horrible for a team that's been crap for so long.

You know what I mean? You've had one blip of a good team. How the hell do you have one player as your core? And you've made the playoffs once in the last decade plus. And for what it's worth, there's other guys, you know, I'd love to keep. I'd love to keep Covington. He signed on a team-friendly contract for the next three seasons. You'd love to keep Sarich, if the price is right,

when he hits free agency in 2021. Those are guys that, you know, I'd be very happy to keep. Josh Okie, Cogi, hopefully he develops into the player that you hope to get when you draft it as a two-way player who's a three-and-d style guy and maybe a little bit more than that. Those are guys he'd like to keep, but Towns is the one cornerstone. So it's about when his contract kicks in next season, the next five years, I think you need to build towards being a really, really good team that's hopefully contending in

year four and five of that deal. That needs to be the goal. And that's a long time away from now, but the decisions you make now are going to directly affect what happens then. Just like we've seen with other teams that have had a trade star players, like right now, we're seeing it with Anthony Davis. The decisions that were made the past couple years are affecting what's happening now as this free agency is one year away. So with Carl Anthony Towns, he's your ticket to contention. It needs to be about maximizing him on both ends of the floor. Well, tonight there is going to be a game featuring the Minnesota Timberwolves and we'll make it our NBA watch of the night. We'll get to see what they look like and Carl Towns and the rest of them look like for the first time without Tibido on their sideline.

The game is going to be going on tonight and it is the Minnesota Timberwolves against the Oklahoma City Thunder is going to be on NBA TV at 7 o'clock central time, 8 p.m. Eastern Oklahoma City, obviously favored in that game. But you never know in these whole, you know, how a team is going to react first game without their coach. Sometimes you see them really rally around each other and they go and have this massive grand slam effort. Or sometimes it looks like, you know, a rudderless ship there for a little while as it did with Chicago, right? Yeah. You got to look. So you never know which way this is going to go.

He's run-al-al-us before and after in Chicago. Yeah, we're going to get to see him tonight as they are the NBA watch of the night, NBA TV. Kevin, what do you think? Well, the tough part for Minnesota is they're going against the number one defense in basketball, right? So they might be coming out ready to play for their new coach. They might be coming out trying to extend their win streak, the three, but they're facing number one defense and basketball, Chris. It won't be easy against O'KC. It's going to be hard to tell, right?

because they might have gotten their ass kicked if Tibbs was their coach. And truth be told, why didn't you wait until this one? You knew that Oklahoma City was next for Minnesota. What if you win this one? I know. Kind of hard to do if you beat number one defense and basketball. Yeah. Remember, if you want to watch every NBA game,

subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com, Amazon, or your local cable or satellite provider. One other thing I do when I ask you about the Minnesota thing, Do you think Tom Tibido is a head coach within the next two years? I mean, I know he's still going to get paid by Minnesota, so there would have to be some kind of negotiation that would go on there. But do you think somebody hires Tom Tibido to be their head coach? I'd lean towards no.

I think after a second chance, maybe it could take a little longer, maybe a stint as an assistant coach again. Maybe that could be beneficial. I say 100% they hire him. He's a winner. He wins basketball games. Sure, he's good. The thing is, though, man.

is with some of his beliefs and the amount of minutes he plays guys. Like, you mentioned that. I would fire him today talk we had in December 2017. That came after a stint where I think it was like two, three games in a row where he played an eight-man rotation and guys were playing near 40 minutes. And it's like, dude, it's December. Chill out.

Like, save this for the playoffs. You know, you know, it's just like if you're hiring him, you know that's going to come with it. Unless maybe after the second time, this is where it's like, okay, I understand I need to change.

And I will say it's hard with his personality now. That will be one thing because you read those stories about like the whole business operations and the CEO of the team and how difficult he was. He wasn't really out of the community and he wasn't, you know, showing up or good at team events. And like all that shit matters if you're losing. People usually overlook that stuff, your gruff personality and all that other stuff off the court stuff if you're winning. Right. because you just put your head down and all that matters to you is basketball. But we do live in a different age now where people within organizations do care about all that ancillary stuff that's not just basketball.

And it's hard to be the just let me coach my team and get the hell out of my way and don't even talk to me type of guy unless you're winning. And for what it's worth regarding minutes, it's been better this year. I mean, Carl Anthony Towns two years ago was 37 minutes. Last season, it was 35.6. This year, it's 33.8. guys across the board on that team are lower this year. You still got fired. All right.

Let's move on. It was a little over a week ago, or I guess it was last week, you posted the article on the ringer.com about the San Antonio Spurs. And for the umpteenth time in the past two decades, while the rest of the league has yinged, they have yanged, right? They always do something different. And here they are doing something different again than virtually everybody in the league and doing it with recently unbelievable results because they have been red hot and you take a look now.

And there they are, same as always, in the playoff race, 24 and 17. They have won eight of their last 10 games. They have won five in a row, another double-digit road victory last night. And so I do kind of want to go over when you took a deep dive into San Antonio and how this is happening. How is it happening? They have the number five offense overall over the course of the season. They're doing that despite the fact they're zgging when everybody else is zagging. They lead the NBA in mid-range attempts.

They have attempted the fewest share of three-point shots. Aldridge and DeRosen combined for more post-ups per game than 22 other teams in the lead. They're playing this really old school style. But what's interesting with San Antonio is they're really just doing that with Aldridge and De Rosen. When you take one of those guys off the floor, suddenly they start taking threes at a modern rate. When the spurs have just one of Aldridge or DeRosum on the floor, they take the 10th highest share of three-point shots in the league. Right? So they're playing like two different teams depending on the lineup that's on the floor.

and that's pretty unique compared to some other teams that just play one style regardless to the lineup. The spurs are adapting to their personnel in the offensive end and their defense has just been really, really good the past month as well. It's funny how trading Kowai Leonard, getting back to Rosen and Jacob Pertil, this team keeps on winning, Chris. It's pretty unbelievable to have a team that has been so good and yet your two best players on the team simply do not shoot threes. And for good reason, you know, DeRosen shooting 18%, Aldridge, you know, 14%, but they don't even shoot them. DeRosen averages one attempt a game.

Alderge averages 0.3 attempts a game. And it's something I talk about a lot, right? Which is, if you can't do it, don't do it. Play to your strengths. And this is why Popovich has been such a great coach for so many years. It's like, okay, we're not going to try to turn these guys into three-point shooters. And you've got people all around the league that are attempting, to turn players into three-point shooters because they think that's what it's going to take for

them to be successful. It's what it's going to take for them to move to the modern NBA, as it were. I mean, you would have thought both of these players, wouldn't you say, De Rosen and Aldridge, I think most people would say they need to add a three-point shot to their arsenal. Instead of saying they need to add a three-point shot to their arsenal, they've gone, don't shoot them at all. And they haven't. And it's been to great result, which is really interesting to me, right?

It is fascinating. Like with Aldridge, he shot threes in the past, you know, the past four years going back to Portland. I think his last year in Portland is the first year. He really started shooting threes consistently.

He didn't do it particularly well. He shot only 32% over those four seasons. But I think with San Antonio, what they've done, that's been interesting, is with De Rosen either from the post or in the pick and rule or Aldridge in the post, when either of those players pass out of that play type, it typically leads to a layup or a three-pointer from somebody else that's on the floor.

They're still targeting layups and threes. That's modern, analytically savvy basketball, whatever you want to call it, right? Mori ball. They're still targeting those high-value shots, which makes sense. It's just with Alderidge and DeRosan, you have two of the best men-range shooters in the basketball. you're putting them in the position where they're most comfortable scoring from mid-range, but from there, they're still creating three-pointers and creating layups for other players, whereas if you have DeRosen hovering around the three-point line and Alder just spotting up from three,

they're not as much in that playmaking position. So I think they're maximizing potential points per shot by putting the player in the mid-range spot on the floor. What do you think? Do you think that this is a hot streak, or do you think that this is a team that found its way, that it took a while because you're adding in a different player. You're hitting in a lot different. I mean, there is no Tony Parker. There is no manager nobly.

There is no, uh, Kauai Leonard. There is no, right. Most of the, most of the guys that have been logging big minutes and they've been playing the same way for so long, they're not there anymore. And so this was going to be different. And do you think it's just something that took time?

And now they found their bearings. And maybe they're not going to win eight out of their, you know, 10 games, uh, going forward, but that this is going to be an extremely good team. Or do you think that, you know, and we've seen this with a lot of teams this year, there have been hot streaks and cold streaks for all of these teams and we look up one week and they're the six seed and we look up the next week and they're the 12 seed? Which are you more a believer in that this is that they figured it out? And so now they're hitting their stride or that this is just a good run.

Since December 1st, Chris, which is really where this all started for San Antonio, they have the number one offense in basketball. By far, by far, they're scoring 117.2 points per 100 possessions. They also have the number 8 defense in the league since December 1st. Before December 1st, Chris, they still had a pretty good offense, ranked 13th. It's just their defense was horrible. It ranked 26th in the league. So their defense has been better as of late.

I think their offense is going to continue to be good. I wonder more about the defense. they faced a handful of weaker opponents or good teams that had players out. They've had some really strong performances on the defensive end. Don't get me wrong, but that's what I'm curious to see if it sustains over the course of the season. Because we've seen this with different teams.

Like with Utah, early in the on, there's an argument to be made that they've made some tweaks and things have been better, but also over the course of the season, there's also stints where Utah was playing the same exact way forcing teams into mid-range jumpers, it just so happens that those teams were hitting a heck of a lot of those shots. And so for San Antonio, I think it's partially

slight tweaks, partially a little bit of just missed shots. So I want to see how that translates over the course of the year, but I think their offense is good. I think their offense will continue. You're waiting to see on, is this totally for real? I mean, I don't think it's fair to assume they're going to continue having the number 10 defense

in the league moving forward. You know what I'm saying? I understand. I think that's, I think their offense is good. I just don't see top 10 defense for the rest of the season. All right. Another team that has been blazing hot has been the Milwaukee Bucks. They have the highest winning percentage in the league, and they have the highest point differential in the league by three points.

They are 9.6. Interestingly enough, the second best point differential is the Boston Celtics, who we'll get to them in a moment. But let's go back to the bucks. plus 9.6 is just a monster number that, you know, there have been a lot of great teams that haven't posted a number like that. And it's rather impressive considering you're about exactly midway through the season. 41 would be midway. They've already played 39 games.

They're 19 and 4 at home in their new beautiful arena this year. And they're averaging 118 points a game. They're giving up, you know, 108 roughly. And so now the season continues. The Budenholzer thing has been unbelievable. We have not seen massive amounts of roster overhaul there. You know, you, I mean, this is like the greatest indictment of Jason Kidd of all time, right? I mean, if I'm him, I'm like, oh, for God's sake.

I mean, really? Like, not only they, I get that there's going to be individual improvement. I get that there's been some tweaks to the roster, but generally this isn't a radically different team, and yet there they are in first place in the Eastern Conference, best winning percentage in the entire NBA, almost midway through the season, and a plus 9.6 point differential.

What do we make of it? I still think that Brooke Lopez has been critical to that team. I know, I'm serious, and the reason why is because with Brooke Lopez and Arsani-Elius over for that matter, you're allowed to play big and still space the floor. Whereas last season with Janus, really the only way you could space is with Janus at the 5. Right now you can play big and still have spacing.

Because of Brooke Lopez, he has just been, his evolution continues to blow my mind. It's just funny pulling up his career shooting numbers. It's like 0-0-0-0 for made 3. 1-2, 134, 112, 101 this season. And it's really weird how that's happened with Brooke Lopez. But anyway, I think with the Bucks,

it obviously has to do with the system. The revisions that were made on both ends of the floor, particularly are on offense. Booth and Holder right now as a coach of the year. And you mentioned, you mentioned Brooke Lopez, who was obviously a tweet to the roster.

The other big one, which goes to that saying, it's only fair. Number one, Brogden is not hurt. He was hurt last year. And he's been their third leading score. He has had a great season so far.

And the other one is, you mentioned, those two big guys, and sometimes just adding something a little bit different, and that doesn't necessarily mean that those players are unbelievable players, but they're good fits for the rest of what you've got, which is Lopez and Eliasova, as you mentioned. I mean, those guys were not part of what took place last year, but you watch that team, and they are just so much better. They are so much better than they were.

Obviously, Janus is out of his mind. I mean, he's posting a 29 PER so far this season. And I think it's fair to say any list that is talking about, like, the most underrated players has to include Middleton. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah, I think. Nobody talks about Chris Middleton. I mean, he gets NBA Twitter love, but I think if you're talking nationally to like the casual fan. Hardcore fans, though.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, exactly. But he's an outstanding player. Yeah, he's really, really good. And that team has been, I mean, they've been great so far this year. On the flip side, as I mentioned, they're three points ahead of everybody in point differential. But the second best point differential in the entire NBA is the Boston Celtics, which I think... Isn't that surprising after their slow start?

It's incredible. And I read this morning, they have had three straight games where they have set assist records this year. They've broken at every game that they have played in the last three. and it was about how offensively they're starting to gel and about how they're moving the ball. And so they have set their season highs for assist three games running now. So I feel like we've done this five times already this year. Are they figuring it out?

But now it might be they have figured it out. You know what I mean? I'm pretty sure if we went and listened back, it would be like four or five times. Have the Celtics figured out? Have they figured it out? Seriously. Because they've gone in a handful of these winscrets.

Well, because everybody expected them to be a maximum. amazing this year. And they haven't been. We're 39 games. And yet they have the second best net rating in basketball. It's very odd. I think with Boston, they are starting to figure it out. And that part of the reason why is because players are starting to figure out their roles. Early on, Jalen Brown was just horrific. I mean, he was, he was so bad in October and into early November. But since late November, early December, especially, he's been great.

I mean, he's really figured out how to maximize his game within his role, playing fewer minutes than he did last season, getting fewer touches. Jalen Brown has figured it out. Hayward is still working his way back. He has moments where he looks like the guy, you know, like when he scored, it seems like whenever he faces Minnesota, Gordon Hayward looks like the Gordon Hayward of old. And other than that, you're left wondering when that guy is going to return. But he's had moments, you know, near triple double on Friday against Dallas.

I still think Hayward is on a positive trajectory. It's just moving a little bit slower than some people would have liked. But Boston, they are slowly figuring it out. And Carrie Irving, these past four or five weeks has also been on another level as well. And you were talking about earlier about how Boonehuser is the coach of the year. The other one that certainly has to be in the conversation is Doc Rivers, because we looked at that team and they started off super hot. At one point, you know, even double-digit games into the season,

their first in the Western Conference. And then they took their inevitable dip, and then they lost Lou Williams for a little while. And it was like, oh, okay, they're not going to be nearly this good. And then here we are again. You know, they've won two games in a row. Now, as of today, they're a home court advantage team in the Western Conference. I mean, as I said, we're almost halfway through the season.

And there the Clippers are as one of the four best records. in the Western Conference. Now, I know all of this stuff changes within a week's time. But you look at what their team has done so far this year, and you look at what these guys are averaging. You're getting pretty late into the season to not think it's real because it's Tobias Harris, 21 a game, Gallinari, 20 a game. They've finally gotten a healthy Gallinari.

Gallinari is so good when he's healthy. Oh, for sure. He's been so good for so long, going back to his time in Denver. I mean, they got three guys averaging over 18 points a game, and then Harold averaging almost 16. Yeah. Doc Rivers has done a heck of a job with that team in those pieces this year. You know, when you look at Doc, you look at Malone and Denver. We already mentioned Boothin Holder with the Bucks.

I think right now that's maybe your top three for head coach of the year. Doc Rivers with the clippers, we'll see if they sustain this over the course of the year. Avery Bradley still needs to get back on track. He has been horrible. That's the shocking thing to me. I mean, you look at his numbers so far this year. Awful. Yeah, he's been really.

And this is a contract year, isn't it? He has a non-guaranteed deal for next season. So this is effectively a contract year. And this is his worst season by far. Kevin, his P.E.R is five. Five. Like, I just, I can't even fathom. them that. I mean, Bradley's been back now, 33 games, and he's still struggling. I just wonder when

it's going to come back with him. It's taken way too long, and that's one of the reasons why with Doc is a little bit frustrating. It's like you have some other solid options within your roster, like Ty Wallace, who's playing fairly well prior to Bradley's return and his minutes have been diminished. Patrick Beverly, you give him an uptick in minutes. You have Shagilda Sal Alexander, their outstanding rookie point guard, more opportunity, and yet Bradley continues to play. play heavy minutes despite his just horrific struggles in the office. Well, it's great. I mean, listen, P.E.R is not the end-all, be-all.

It's definitely not. I think John Hollager would even tell you there's better numbers out there now. There's better numbers out there, but it is telling us something. And I promise you, I would probably have to look insanely hard to find anybody with a starter with a P-E-R less than six. much less one that is on a good team. Like, there's just no way. That number is so low, Kevin.

I feel like you're making a case against Stock Rivers as coach of the year. Well, I'm just saying that. You're essentially saying, why are you starting Avery Bradley, potential coach of the year Kennedy? Well, I don't know. I mean, like, I would have to go look at their lineup data and see, right? It's all within a context. Maybe defensively, they've been way better.

Like, I don't know. I'm not paying attention to that team so intensely that I'd be able to you what the positive and negative impacts are. But I know he's shooting numbers and his offensive numbers have added up to just horrendous results. I think it's also an investment by Doc Rivers thinking we, you know, if you're the clippers, you're thinking we need to get this guy back before mid-April when the playoffs start. You need to get everybody back because of his impact as a defensive player. You need him as your Curry stopper. If you're raising the Blazers, you need him as your Lillard stopper and so on and so forth through every team that has a

star point guard. That's what you're thinking if you're the clippers, right? I agree. And so right now, his value is obviously not offense, but his offense has been a killer. All right, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk about the article that Kevin put out today on the ringer.com and also give our thoughts

on Jimmy Butler and the 76ers. Back after these words. Ringer NBA show brought to you by Microsoft Surface. Thank you, Microsoft. Surface for being a sponsor of the show. Need a device that helps you get stuff done, but is also perfect when you want to catch up on some fun like streaming live sports or checking on your fantasy team.

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between Jimmy Butler and Brett Brown. Shocking, really, to find out that Jimmy Butler would have any issues with anyone. But here we go again. First, it was Joel Embed, not so thrilled with how he was being used within the offense. and now it's Jimmy Butler not so thrilled with his role within the 76ers. So is this going to hold the Sixers back from being what they could possibly be, which I think you and I both believe is a team that could be in the Eastern Conference finals with a chance to possibly make a finals appearance if it all worked.

Let's be clear, despite all the drama, despite everything that's happening, this team's still really good. It's 26 and 14 since the Butler trade with two of the player, with two of their trio on the floor, their outscoring teams by 8.8 points for 100 possessions. They've been really, really good. Here's what I would tell you. It's just with Butler, it's about the process. Like he wants more pick and roll.

He wants more isolations because that's what he's thrived in over his career. This is what I would tell you, though, Kev. What I would tell you is that's what we were saying last year about the Timberwolves. They're still playing great. Yeah, there might be these problems, but they're still playing great. They got the third or fourth best record in the league. And then obviously you had the injury. And so they didn't get the draw that you would normally get in the playoffs.

But once you take a playoff loss, that's when this happens. You know what I'm saying? Because that's when things can really, you can start to get the cracks in the foundation. For sure. And I think if you're Jimmy Butler, that's part of it, right? Like right now you're the third wheel behind Joelle and B and Ben Simmons. And if you're Butler, if you want more pick and roll and isolation, according to ESPN's Vermont Shelburne and Adrian Or Janowski, I think he's right.

I mean, in an ideal world, that's what you want. When you think about what this team could be, right now they run the fewest amount of pick and rolls in the NBA, only the heat run fewer isolations than the Sixers. If you're Jimmy Butler, I think you're right. Like in that role with Simmons as a screener and that Blake Griffin, Draymond Green's screening wool or, you know, I think that would be fascinating. I think the potential of that is, is, again, you mentioned he can maybe a finals contender? Of course they can. And they need to play more picker-roll. They need to play more isolation. When the game slows down to the playoffs,

that's what you're going to need more of. But that takes time. You can't just overhaul the system mid-season when he comes into November. There's very little practice time. They don't have the benefits of training camp or a whole summer's playing pickup together. Things take time to develop. I think if you're Jimmy Butler, you need to be a little bit patient with Brepp Brown here. Maybe he'll install that, but you also need progress. Embed and Simmons are still young. Simmons still needs to develop his jumper. Joel and Bede still is making constant improvements. But there's little things these guys can do to further enhance the potential of a pick and roll threat with Jimmy Butler as a ball handler or Ben Simmons. Here's my problem. Even if he's right,

Why is all this stuff public? I'd love to know that too. You know what I'm saying? Why is all this public? Even with the M. Bedeed stuff, why do I know that you think Brett Brown should be doing this? Why don't you just go tell Brett Brown? Well, M. Bede said it. M. Bedeet said it.

I got it. But with Jim Bowler, yeah. But I mean, it's like nothing is taking care of within the confines of the Philadelphia 76ers practice facility and locker room, it seems. It feels like it all takes place in front of a microphone. It's bizarre. Yeah, it is. Right. Like you would hope that you could.

work out your problems amongst yourselves, not necessarily have me and you talking about it on a podcast. We shouldn't even know if Jimmy Butler, that would be my opinion. If Jimmy Butler has problems with Brett Brown and the way he's being used in the offense, why does everybody need to know that? It's funny. Jimmy Butler had a quote, I believe, yesterday, where he said something along the lines of, you know, if you've been following me throughout my career, you would know if I was having

problems because I have a hard time hiding it. And it's like, Jimmy, we do know. We always, we always know, Jimmy. We always know. We do know. Literally every time you've ever had a problem. It's like this is why we're talking about it. This is why people have this perception, right?

And you know, the one thing it does bring to mind is it's like, dude, how have we had this much drama in a month and a half? And it's like, you made that deal for him. it makes you think if there's been this much trauma in a month and a half, are you really going to do this long term? Really?

Well, that's what the Sixers need to find out over the next couple of weeks ahead of the February 7th trade deadline and then if that passes over the next couple months before free agency hits, you need to find out if Jimmy Butler is the guy you want as part of this potential championship core.

I mean, the potential of this Sixers team is not just one title, it's multiple titles. That's the upside. of this core. If they make a couple of the right moves along the way, they're going to be in that conversation

every single season with Joel Lumbina and Ben Simmons, two of the game's best young players. And all starts with Jimmy Butler, though, and what they'll decide with that. Yeah, and then that'll be a hell of a summer in Philly with them talking about Nick Foles and Carson Wentz

and whether or not to keep Jimmy Butler. I mean, I think you've got to keep Butler. I think you have to. Maybe it's less their choice and more his choice, because if you're looking at teams like the clippers or the nets that fit his style a bit more, maybe if you're a baller, that's a bit more appealing. But I don't see how you can, if it's quote unquote, all about winning, as he said before, I don't see how you can leave Philadelphia.

I just don't. The potential of this team is multiple titles. Why don't we just have, if Anthony Davis leaves the Pelicans or something, or I know that's what is bandied about all time, or something like that, right? why don't we just send Tibbs and Butler to like New Orleans and let them go be together there I'm not sure Jimmy Butler would be too happy about that let him try to win and get to the playoffs or something um all right let's get to your article that came out today which is kind of with with Anthony Davis in mind which is you you've got X number of years to be able to build

around the player a great player and there are five guys that you have identified that we may look back at like the Davis situation and wonder how they weren't built around better than they were. And you have mentioned Carl Towns, you have mentioned Ben Simmons, you've mentioned Christas, Porzengis, Bradley Beal, Devin Booker. I do think it is worth mentioning that at least Simmons is on a winning team. The other four are all on losing teams as of right now. So there is less work to do to build around Simmons than with the other four. No kidding.

It's like we said. With Jimmy Butler, ever since that trade, they're outscoring teams by nearly nine points per 100 possessions with at least two of their big three. And Bede Simmons and Butler on the floor. They have been really good without the benefit of training camp and without the benefits of pickup during the off season. Those guys have already been really good. It's really just about looking forward. you know, with these teams or in volatile situations,

what happens down the line. If you're, essentially, the article is just saying, these are players who can help make your team into a contender. But if the team continues having issues, whether it's in locker room,

in the case of Philadelphia, or whether it's in the case with organizational dysfunction, as it seems to be with Minnesota, or if the team just keeps losing, if things just don't work out, we've talked about my bright future sons a lot on this podcast, Chris,

and how I think they could be a really, really good team for a long time. But there's also a chance these guys just don't develop. And then three, four years from now, we might be talking about Devin Booker as a potential trade target when he's in the middle of his five-year max contract. That's all this is really about. Right.

So if we're talking about these guys, and I mean, the truth is this, right? You have Carl Anthony Towns, whose franchise, we're talking it was over a decade plus of them not being able to build a playoff team. Simmons, we've given that caveat. The Knicks obviously have not been able to build a big-time team in many years, but they might be a free agent away in the off season.

His name is Kevin Durant. Right. All of a sudden, they could look like a radically different team. And then the same thing goes with Washington, their inability to win 50 games for the last hundred years. And Booker, right, he is stuck in a situation where I just, I look at it and I say, well, a lot has to change about these teams because you have a long track record of four of those not winning, whether you want to blame ownership, whether you want to blame management, whatever it may be. There have been good players that have been on those franchises, but it's been a long time since any of those teams won anything outside of Philly, right?

I'm putting Simmons to the side with those others for, you know, towns, Chris Stapps, Bradley Beal and Devin Booker, and I think if you're a fan of any of those teams, you want so desperately, yes, to build around those guys, but it is hard to have faith that you're going to be able to build around those guys. I guess at least with, I mean, well, you've got different management. James Jones just kind of took over in Phoenix, and Perry hasn't been there all that long with the Knicks. But, I mean, it's still Ernie Grunfeld in Washington. And in Minnesota, who knows, right? It's Scott Layton now, so who knows what he'll be able to build? But I don't know.

Who are you most confident? The franchise that could build around one of these guys. It's Ben Simmons in Philadelphia. I mean, he's the arguably the best player of these five on the easily, the best team of this five. His case is really just about if Butler's resigned and if Simmons becomes the third, wail if then he becomes the guy who's unhappy in that situation. That's really all that would be about. I think with these other situations, Bradley Biel is already a guy who's potentially available

at the price of sky high. With Beale, it's just been really intriguing to see him without John Wall this season. You know, in the eight games without Wall, he's averaging 30.7 assists, six rebounds, and 41 minutes per game, which is pretty equal to his per 36 numbers without out wall over the full season. He's been on another level with more playmaking opportunity. I think if you're Washington,

what you're thinking right now is is he a keeper moving forward? He's still very young. I think he's somebody where with his fairly team front, I don't want to call it team friendly contract of Max when he signed it in 2016, but with the cap increase,

it's not too bad compared to John Wall who's going to be earning close to 50 million by the end of his deal. With Beale, he turns 20, 28 and 2021, which is his year of free agency, I think you have time with him. I wouldn't you say it makes it impossible to build around Beale or with Beal in mind if you're unable to do anything with the wall contract? Yeah, that's a tough part.

That's the problem, right? With the other ones, you could see there's a little clearer path to moving things around. I would say the second hardest would be towns because how the hell are you building around Towns if you've got that Wiggins albatross. I mean, that thing is a killer on your, on your cat. I mean, how are you building around Carl Anthony Towns with the Wiggins contract? And how are you building around Brad Beale when you've got the, when you, when you've got the wall contract kicking in?

It's not easy. With Porzingis, of course, there's the potential of signing Kevin Durant this summer. Knicks are a real threat for Katie. And Katie would have real interest in the Knicks this summer. We'll see if that ends up happening. I think it's hard to leave Golden State. They're playing tonight. Unfortunately, still no Chris Stavs,

Porzingis, though. And then with the case in Devin Booker, it's like I said earlier, they're a young team. Devin Booker's contract starts next season. It's just really about for Phoenix, continuing to build around Booker, who was having another outstanding season, averaging 25.7 assists.

Very few guys have done that before turning 23. Booker's still just 22 years old. The guys who have done it are basically all Hall of Hamers. except for Derek Rose, Derek Rose, LeBron, Tracy McGrady, Michael Jordan, and Oscar Robertson.

There's very few guys that post numbers like Booker has this year. These teams have their potential star players or blossoming stars. It's just over the next couple of years, if you're that franchise, it's about building around this player,

and if you're somebody else, that's the guy you're maybe planning for four years down the road, because this is where the planning starts now, about aligning contracts to have the right expiring deal, deals, to have assets set up to be a contender for that type of player that becomes available on a trade.

So these are the guys I'd be thinking about if I'm a different team. I would say as smart as you are running a team, anybody that's out there, it's really difficult in the town situation. It is really difficult in the Beale situation. That Phoenix situation, I would think, would be desirable for somebody that is attempting to build a team. We will see if James Jones is up to the tag. there, but you would have Booker and you would have Aiton for three more years on a rookie deal.

And so you would know, hey, I've got these two guys. For once worth, Booker signed his Macs. So Booker will be starting on a max deal this coming season. But you still have those guys. No, I'm saying you still have those guys. Aiton, Bridges, Jackson on rookie deals. Yeah. And you've got a couple guys on rookie deals.

And so, but there's not some kind of monster weight that you've got to get rid of. of that makes you, that makes it very difficult to build. Sons can create cap space as soon as the summer if they want to. I look at that as a, as the palette and I say, all right, you could do something with this because you don't have a bunch of contracts that are like, what the hell do we do with that? Whereas it's, when you've got poison pills like the wall contract and the Wiggins contract, finding somebody to take those. Yish.

Those players either have to be great or you've got to be able to unload them. and neither of those two things look to be in the cards as of right now. Won't be easy. It won't be easy. No. I mean, are we going to look up and we're going to say Andrew Wiggins is an all-star? We're going to look up and say John Wall is one of the best five-point guards in the league again.

It would be nice to wake up and see Andrew Wiggins as a really good player. It would be great. Well, then wake up on Mars. That would be pretty cool. That's the only place it can happen. That'd be nice. Kevin, it is always a play. pleasure. Thanks to

everybody that listens to the Ringer NBA show. Go give us a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars. It really helps. And we will talk to you next week.