The Ringer NBA Show - How Will the NBA Adapt to the Lakers’ Successful Style of Play? | The Mismatch

Episode Date: October 13, 2020

Verno and KOC in a post-Finals glow discuss why there’s no asterisk on this championship (0:32), the future of this Lakers team and how the rest of the league might adapt to compete with them (10:09), and Rajon Rondo’s reascension in the playoffs (41:10). Then they give their two cents on the reignited LeBron-Jordan GOAT debate (48:09). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the mismatch. Today we're going to talk about the NBA finals, the Lakers winning the championship, and why there is no asterisk on this championship. In addition to that, we are going to talk about LeBron James, Rajan Rondo, the LeBron Jordan Goat Debate, and much more. Now on to the show. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show.

I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O. O.comber, Kevin O. O. Climplict. Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin! Burnow! We have a champion! We do have an NBA champion, and our NBA season has concluded. After, I believe, I read 355 days from when it first began, it truly was the most unbelievable

experience being an NBA fan for almost a full year's time before the completion of the season. You know, guys that were rookies at the beginning of all of this a year ago didn't seem like rookies by the time it all ended. And, you know, in the end, I think we thought going into the bubble, how are people going to view this? What is going to be, what are people's opinions going to be regarding a champion that is crowned under these circumstances? And I would say, at least on my behalf and I think yours and I think everybody else in the free world, I have not seen one person poke any kind of hole in this championship. And the Lakers are the deserving champions. And I do think that when you take a step back and you realize that this season was able to be completed as it was

and the playoffs were able to happen as they were. I mean, I don't think there's any, like there'll be a footnote in history, but I don't think even in the moment any of us think any less of this championship. Do you? Not at all, not at all. If anything, you think a little bit more of it,

considering the fact that, you know, other players around the league have remarked about this, three months in one place, in isolation, a lot of guys away from family and loved ones. I mean, it takes a lot of, you know, mental strength and mental focus in order to continue striving towards the task at hand there. And, you know, kudos to all the teams that had deep playoff runs. You know, really the final four were in there for over two months and Lakers and Heat

around three months. It's remarkable that there's actually been a completion to the season. It's remarkable that the NBA, you know, the partners, the Disney workers, you know, everybody who works behind the scenes and all the players, all the teams, all bought in together and made this whole thing happen. It's incredible. So even though the champion isn't something that will have an asterisk on, nor should it, and like, I'm going to turn the TV off if I ever hear somebody suggest that, it still is going to have a special place, you know, in our heart, considering everything this year and the fact that you're going to

but they actually made it work. They actually made it work. And I think that one of the reasons that you haven't heard anybody poke holes in this is because from the time that this began in the bubble, you and I both expressed, hey, what are guys going to look like? They've been back home. They haven't been able to go to gyms. Who knows what kind of shape all these guys are going to be in when they do come back? A, there were no egregious, oh my goodness, this guy let himself go during the quarantine. There really weren't.

And in fact, it went the opposite. You saw guys in many cases get in the best shape of their lives. And I don't know if it's because of the environment. I don't know if it's because of the lack of distractions. But the quality of basketball, just as a basketball fan, was unbelievable. like the entire time. And I think that's, I think if it would have been where you saw, oh, yeah, well, this would have been different if the season kept on playing out.

And there wasn't a break in the season. I don't know. Surely some things would have been different. But because the basketball we were watching was at such an incredibly high level. And because guys obviously made a severe commitment to staying in. great shape and staying in basketball shape during the quarantine. I think that's another factor in it because the quality of basketball was unbelievable, truly.

Like, I mean, these playoffs, these playoffs were great. I'm not sure if it would have been better, if they're traveling, if they're with the distractions, if they've got all the fans in the crowd. I'm not sure that the quality of basketball actually would have been as good, which is a crazy thing to think about. It's very possible. It's very possible the quality would have been worse had, you know, it had been a normal season.

But like I think the reason why nobody's really talking about stuff like that, about like Asterix and like, you know, blah, blah, blah, this and that crap is because, you know, for these teams, for these teams to play at this high level and to compete at this high level, I think anybody watching with their own two eyes could see the level of competition. There was never, you know, before the games restarted in July, there was talk about like, well, our guys going to, you know, take the game serious without crowds in there. What's the atmosphere going to be like? There wasn't a moment, especially in game five or game six, where I sort of felt the fans are missing

and, you know, these guys aren't playing hard. Obviously, you miss the fans and you wish that could have happened in Miami and L.A. Obviously, that goes without saying that atmosphere is missed, but it did not impact the intensity on the court in the level of competition. Anybody watching could see that and feel that when in game five you see Jimmy Butler pouring his heart out there, you know, leaning over the table at the end of the game, playing 47 minutes. You could see that in game six with the Lakers having just an absolutely unbelievable

defensive performance, connected, communicating, energy off the bench, guys rooting and cheering for each other. The unbelievable performance from Anthony Davis. Davis on defense. LeBron James putting an effort. There was no doubt about the level and the quality of play. And so the Lakers are true champions. And with the three months at Disney World, it does make it a little bit more special, in my opinion, considering the challenges of being there away from loved ones with everything going on this year. So, you know, tip of the hat to the, you know, to these teams for what they did. And congratulations to the Lakers for what's really an

unbelievable playoff, Ron. Well, and that's the other thing, and I should have mentioned this. Look, the biggest part of why this does not get holes poked in it outside of the quality of play and everything else, the best team won. The best team won the title, right? Like, the easiest thing to do is to say, ah, that wouldn't have happened if they would have played it out, right? Like if somebody else wins, even if the heat would have won, people would have said,

ah, would that have happened if they weren't in the bubble? because they were the five seed going in. And so we would say, oh, we'd make all these excuses as to why the bubble was ripe for an upset and it would have been different if they would have had to play games in Los Angeles and whatever else. But the best team won the title this year. And so I think that's another factor of looking back and saying, hey, this is a title just like any other title. right and the other thing is the best teams are the regular season was not one that has some kind of immense clout in terms of playoff success in Milwaukee you know what I mean like like there's nothing there's nothing that makes me think that if they were playing if they would have played that

out in what is a real regular season and then the playoffs we still thought Miami could beat them, right? We talked about that all year. Like that's a you don't want to face them, right? You better hope they get out of four or five because that's who you have to meet in the second round. And so being that Milwaukee and the Clippers were the biggest upset, on the Milwaukee side, I think it's fair to say that I think that would have happened regardless. I'm not so sure on the Clippers.

I do think the bubble messed them up. You know what I mean? And it's their own fault. Like, I'm not making an excuse for them. But like you saw they were a different team. We saw them at the end of the year. We even saw them in the first couple rounds in the bubble. Like, what the hell happened to Montres Harrell?

What happened to William? What happened to that team? Like, they were a shell of themselves. And obviously, they collapsed completely against Denver. Maybe if they play the season out, we would have gotten Lakers Clippers. That would be the one thing I'd say. And I'm not taking away from Denver. It's a demerit against the Clippers because they were disgusting.

Who knows? I mean, this is why like, you know, when it comes to these types of hypothetical conversations of how things would have went during normal season, I'm almost just not even that interested in it because it wasn't a normal season. And this is the circumstances that all the teams were dealt and all of them had to deal with in their own way. And some teams dealt with it better than others, clearly, you know, to your point. And that, that to me doesn't change anything because this is just the way this season had to go for it to get to reach completion.

And, you know, the Lakers, it's fascinating with this team winning the championship here, every step of the way, you know, beating Portland, beating Houston, beating Denver, and then being the Miami Heat, you know, LeBron James. of course has proven he's still the best player in the entire NBA, still the best player in the world. But Anthony Davis along the way, we talked on Friday night about Jimmy Butler with Bill Simmons, you know, how he has sort of elevated his status. Anthony Davis, too, in my opinion, has elevated his status from a guy that I would consider, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh, maybe eighth best in the league to a guy that should be in the conversation as like second or third or fourth best in the league. And that's largely because of what he showed over these last couple months is that

he is built to defeat any type of opponent. You know, like with Yokic and Joel Ambide, they are great bigs, but in certain series, their flaws can be exposed, whether that's an ability to defend the perimeter or whether that's the lack of ability to defend different ways. Whereas with AD, we saw him hedge and shut down Damien Lillard and the Pick and Roll. we saw him shut down Houston isolations. We saw him battle against Yokic. We saw him switch onto Murray.

We saw him defend Jimmy Butler and man-to-man defense. He is a match-up-proof superstar. And because he's literally big, he can defeat those smaller teams like Houston. Or he can take slower guys off the dribble from the perimeter and shoot over the top or get to the basket. And that moving forward in the league creates a fascinating. situation with teams are building to go smaller with shooting and perimeter skill because that's what, you know, what winning basketball is. But also there's this guy in L.A., Anthony Davis, playing alongside another giant guy and

LeBron James, who present problems to that style of play. And that's my number one takeaway from this 2019, 2020, NBA season is where do we go from hair with team building with teams trying to assemble the right roster to get through the Western Conference of the Eastern Conference. When you have these two dramatically different style of plays, you have the Golden State style where you're going to see Draymond and the five with Steph and Clay. And then you have the Lakers with 80 and LeBron. It's really opposites with with skill, but just once to one team smaller, one team is actually huge. Well, and you talk about Anthony Davis and where he vaults.

And I mean, look, I give, I give LeBron an immense amount of credit for this. You have seen this happen with guys overtime throughout NBA history. You have seen big men, or especially now in the modern age, you know, more power forward types and them be individually great and you can have a good team, but somebody has. has to be that perimeter guy, right? And whether it was, you know, you go back to Embed and with Jimmy Butler, you know, they were obviously much better a year ago. You go back to Chris Bosch.

He was having great seasons on his own in Toronto, but the best of him is brought out by when he's playing in Miami with, with Wade and LeBron, with Powell Gasol, you know, was an all-star, was a 20-point-per-game guy in Memphis. He goes, Kobe brings it out of him in L.A. And I think that, you know, Anthony Davis could have been this guy that is putting up huge stats for the rest of his life, right? But when you pair him, and obviously he got paired with the best guy you could ever get paired with in this day and age. But when you paired him with somebody like that, I think that LeBron does get credit for bringing out the absolute best in him, which is not just being this offensive juggernaut, but being a defensive. Monster.

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Call 1,800 bets off. I was thinking about this yesterday, Kevin, especially when I was listening to everybody talk about Spolstra. So whether it's Eric Spolstra or it's Nick Nurse, or it's Brad Stevens, or it's Mike Boodenholzer, or it's Doc Rivers, or it's, the list goes on and on. Mike D. Anthony, the list goes on and on. I would say, and this is,

is the other guy I'm going to give credit to, which is Frank Vogel. I think he has been mentioned less and has been less talked about than any coach in NBA history that has won a title. I don't even

think that your average sports fan knows who the coach of the Lakers is. I'm dead serious. I'm serious. I don't think you're wrong, Chris. I really think they don't know. Like all these coaches get talked about all the time.

Nobody ever talked about Frank Bobo. It's like it's not even a topic. Specifically, LeBron's past coaches, too. When he first went to Miami, it was like, can Eric Smolshaw this young coach handle all these stars? And then with the Cavaliers, it was Ty Lou? You know, Tyloo, is he the right coach for the job? David Black?

David Black. I mean, he's had a bunch of them. And by the way, I think one of the big differences here and one of the reasons why is, well, LeBron had never won anything his first year in Miami. So that conversation was only naturally going to happen. And then Cleveland lost first year with LeBron. The Lakers here, the difference is very simple. They won in their first year together with LeBron and A.D.

And then with Vogel. So had they lost, that question would be very real and very loud. And that would be a big part of the conversation. But by winning it in their first year together as a group, that suddenly changes the conversation around this whole team. And I wrote this week. Here's my point, Kevin. It is a thankless job.

It really is. It really is. Exactly. It's a thankless job. And because they want it, there won't be questions about his coaching ability. And the thing is, is what's very, very interesting about that. I wrote this this week in the ringer is because they won on their first year, I think now the front office has less pressure.

Two, have to be like, we got to trade everything to maximize our team around this guy. We got to go all in, all and all in. Now they can be like, okay, we won one. What can we do to build best for sustainable success? How can you assemble a team that can win the following year and get better, obviously, but also be good three, four, five years from now and be built to be good long term. And Rob Polenka and that Lakers front office, they have some ways to go with that. the Lakers should only get better from here.

80's only 27. He still can improve a lot as a playmaker. He talked about getting better as a player even after game six. He said that in his post-game press conference. Polinka has a first round pick this year, 29th in the draft, which to me is a good spot this year. Between like 15 and 40, there's a lot of good role players that are available. I'm having a hard time putting together my rankings because there's so many guys

that I'm like, I'd like to have him on my team. this year. So the Lakers will get their shot at that. They have the non-taxpayer mid-level exception that they could use to chase a free agent in a year. There's not a lot of money out there. It's a shallow class. But there's some guys, you know, maybe you'd want to take a run at like a Tristan Thompson or Aaron Baines or, you know, a Joe Harris, whoever it might be. And they have trade assets. They could always try to flip a Kuzma or a Horton Tucker, whoever it might be to bolster this team. But Ultimately, though, I would keep that first round pick unless it's for a no-brainer player and have some youth on the roster in addition to everything else. And for the Lakers, they should only get better next season.

And I think that when we talked about who they were going to hire as their coach and the Tai Loo stuff didn't work out, right? Remember he wanted to be paid? Because the financial aspect, yeah. Yeah, like a championship coach. And then they land on Frank Vogel, but then they hire Jason. One thing on Ty Lou, the last 48 hours or so there's been an increasing noise that he's the lead guy for the Rockets. Van Gundy, Jeff Van Gundy interviews later this week. So we'll see how things change there.

But my understanding is that with Van Gundy, him being in the bubble, he has not been able to meet James Harden yet. And Tyloo has. So Van Gundy needs an interview with Houston, you know, get. you know, familiar with Hardin and Westbrook and that'll determine who I hate to say this, but if Tyloo, you know, sticks to his guns and say, I want to be paid like a championship coach, and he says, I'll do it for $4 million. And Van Gundy comes in there and says, I'll do it for $3 million. They'll hire Van Gundy.

I think you might be right. I think you might be right. You know what I'm saying? I think you might be right. That owner does not seem like the kind of guy that's going to shell out big money for a coach. you know what I mean and so that could be fascinating to see how that works out

it would also be fascinating to see if there is a more a Darry Van Gundy reunion I know right we could we could end up having both Van Gundy's as head coaches in the league next year yeah so anyways back to the Vogel thing you know they bring in Jason Kidd

they bring in Lionel Hollins they bring in like all these other you know guys on the bench and we're like oh yeah well just what's going to happen when things aren't going good, the guys start bitching at Vogel and then they look over. And we thought there could be an overthrow, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, oh, they're not hiring Jason Kidd,

but they're just going to move over Jason Kidd as soon as they get rid of Frank Vogel. And so I just wanted to give Frank Vogel some love because, I mean, what a thankless job. You just won a title and like, there's no article written about you, really. Like, nobody's even talking about you. It's like if you lost, you suck. If you're, if you win, it's like, oh, yeah, cool. I get, you know, a, you know, a, a chimpanzee could have coached them.

It doesn't matter. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just, and he did. What is Fray Vogel known for? Defense. And, like, they defended like, like, no team you've ever seen defend in the sixth game. The Miami could not score. They couldn't score.

The defense was unbelievable. That was one of the better first half, especially that second quarter, just suffocating, man. Just suffocating the heat offense. And some of it is, look, obviously, it's not as hard to have an amazing defense when you've got Anthony Davis and LeBron James as two of your guys. But we have seen teams with the personnel to defend, not defend, i.e. The Sixers. How about the other team in Los Angeles? Oh, yeah.

The Clippers, too. They got the personnel to defend. Yeah. They didn't defend anybody. Yeah. You know, when it mattered most. You know, they were up by 17 and they let a whole, they, they're up by 17 points. They're up by 19 points and they're blowing a series because they get in.

And that's a credit off to the coaching staff, but also to the players to Anthony Davis and LeBron James for setting a tone and an example that the rest of the team has no choice but to follow along with. LeBron James entering last season, the 2018-19 season, was bashed for his declining defense. And then he turned in a pretty solid year. This year, he stepped up again on the defensive end of the floor all year long. This whole past 355 days, whatever it is that you said, in addition to AD being who he is as a defensive master. Those two guys, in addition to Vogel and the coaching staff, set a tone for everybody. and they played a connected, inspired style. And ultimately, that's what won them, the championship, was defense.

That put them in position for this. And that's why they went 57 in 0, undefeated, 57 and 0 when entering the fourth quarter with the lead. That's because of what the leadership did, the stars did setting an example, and what the entire defense did. And this is why, like, with the role player aspect, yeah, they don't have like a third guy. Yeah, they don't have like that big name third player. But collectively as a deep unit, they have a bunch of guys who play hard on defense, who communicate, who hustle. And that's what made them collectively what they were. Well, and I think you brought up a very good point about what the league is going to do in response to this.

Because Kev, one of the major things was you see now in this day and age teams flying up and down the court. shooting in some cases, even the crappy teams might shoot 503s in a game, right? We understand the math. We understand that it's a copycat league. We understand that there was an entire era where people looked at the warriors and wanted to emulate that. You wanted to have wings. Don't look away.

Don't look away from Golden State. I know, but you wanted to have interchangeable players. You wanted to have this. And then Houston had their success. And they were shooting a ton of threes. And you said, well, geez, obviously look at the. success that they're having. Well, here's the thing. You look at it and who knows how long the staying power is, but I would say you've got to at least look for the next two to three years

at minimum that you're going to have to beat this team in order to win a title. All right. And I would, I would say when you bring up that fourth quarter step, Kev, it is without question, more so than almost any team that you will find. They turn that thing into a half-core basketball game. You are going to have to beat them at half-core basketball. They're not going to fly up and down the court. They are going to, they'll use the clock. LeBrono pounded into the ground.

They can either get to the basket with him and AD. They can get to the foul line. And then they can set up their defense in the half court. and scoring on them in the half court is an absolute bitch. And so how are you going to do that? You don't get to run up and down and shoot threes in transition. You don't get to do it. Like they're not going to let that happen.

They will slow down the game, whether that means getting to the free throw line. They're not going to have a bunch of long rebounds and you getting to flank out. Like, that's not the way the game is going to be played. They are going to dictate that. And if you want to do the we run a play, you run a play, you better be set up with something other than a bunch of guys that can flabbing down the court and knock down threes because you better find some guys that can play half court basketball and deal with LeBron and AD and get you buckets because it is, that is not

an easy task. And I do think that that's part of why they are undefeated going into the fourth is because look at the scores of these fourth quarters. you ain't dropping 30 on them. You're not dropping 40 on them. You're dropping 22. You know, me, maybe, you know, in some cases. And I know they've had some lax, you know,

fourth quarters here and there. But by and large, if you're in a close game with them in the fourth quarter, you got to beat them playing half-court basketball. And when they got LeBron and they got AD, good luck. Good luck. And that's why, like, you know, when it comes to what our team's going to do, you know, our team's going to pay more for bigs than free agency. or they're going to draft bigs higher.

I don't know. I don't know if anything's going to change. Because you can't just think about the Lakers. You can't just think about the size of 80 in LeBron and the challenges that presents. You do also need to think about defending Kauai Leonard and Paul George to larger forwards, larger wings. You do need to think about defending Steph Curry and Clay Thompson.

Best back court perhaps in league history is going to come back next season alongside Dray Monring. I get it. But, Kev, if I'm looking at it right, now and I'm building a team, if I'm in charge of a team, I look at it and say, all right, who am I for sure having to deal with over the next two to three years? And I'm not discounting the clippers. I'm not discounting the Warriors. I would say my certains, my certains are I'm going to be dealing with Anthony Davis and I'm going to be dealing with Nicola

Yokic. And so I better have somebody big. You got to you got to have somebody big. I mean, and Yokic is just going to be another roadblock too. I mean, but this is, this is sort of what I'm getting at. It's like you can't just think about the Lakers. You've got to think about all these different styles of play. I mean, it's not just no team can play just one way right now. Versatility and variety are the keys to success in the NBA right now. And that's where the Lakers have a baked in advantage with somebody like Anthony Davis

because he proved in this entire postseason role. that he can defeat any of those styles. With Yokic, you're going to have problems of certain series against certain opponents because of his own limitations as a defender. With Houston, if they continue to play small, you're going to cause issues for the opponent with your spacing and your versatility, but also, like sometimes you're going to come along a guy like AD who's just bigger than you and can score over you.

Does this change everything? Does this change the NBA in the sense that, for the first time, in a long time, It's not a team that bangs threes. This was not a great three-point shooting team. This was not a high-volume three-point shooting team. That's not how they beat you. And so I do think that there was a long time, an ongoing trend, that the three-pointer was the way to do it.

And it might be the way you can beat them, right, by bringing that to the table. But it's been a while, you know what I mean? Like we had a trend going on in the NBA where you had, to be an outstanding three-point shooting team. And they weren't. Like, they weren't high volume. They weren't high efficiency from three. And yet they still won the title. And so when you've had everybody switch to that, you know, I mean, hell, there are guys that can't even play anymore in the league because they can't hit threes where we say, you got to be able to, you got to be able

stretch the floor, you got to be able to knock down threes, you know, even centers you got out there. Brooke Lopez shoots threes every time he comes down the court now, right? And it's like, well, I mean, do you have to? Do you have to? Maybe. And maybe that's going to be the kryptonite, somebody that really can. I don't know. But it's fascinating to me that the whole league went towards that.

And now what will be the reaction when a team that you don't have to compete three point line wise against? You know, we kept saying. and man, if you want to beat the rockets, if you want to beat the Warriors, you can't be getting beat 50 to 20 at the three point line. You know, they are a, yo, we're just going to dwarf you with size.

The thing is, is they might just be bigger than you, but also you can only choose from the pool of players that are available. And if teams are going to choose between like a big and a wing, who can shoot or a big who's, is like an iffy shooter and, you know, maybe isn't great at defending on the perimeter. You're probably going to choose to wing anyway. It's not like there's like a whole bunch of bigs that teams can go to free agency this offseason and, and chase them and or guys in the draft even.

I mean, like James Wiseman, great prospect, you know, O'Kongru, Center from USC, really nice prospect that both of them are going to go in the lottery. But, you know, those guys also need to continue to improve their jumpers. The both of them do. Weisman is an inefficient shooter. O'Kongru has not proven he can be an efficient perimeter shooter. O'Kongru has shown more versatility on defense, but the both of them do need to improve on that end as well

in order to be as versatile as you need to be in the modern NBA. But it's not like there's a whole bunch of other guys in the draft either to pluck from. I'm just saying. But I know, I know. But I'm like with these, with teams, it's like you do need size, but also like what are the options out there,

which is why like I'm not sure in terms of team building a lot will change, but we'll see, because that's something people are talking about, you know, in league circles. Front offices are like, well, maybe do you go to two bigs, Twin Towers and, you know, force other teams to have to go big against you if you can find two really good bigs who are also, you know, versatile enough to switch screens and play that modern style, play with skill? Or do you just go to the complete opposite? You know what I'm saying? Like you zig when they zag. By going big. Well, I mean, years ago, obviously, I covered those Grizzlies teams and they, The Warriors every year said that was the hardest team for them to deal with because they were different.

Yeah, they were they were different than everybody else, right? You're not playing. They're not playing the same game as them, right? Now, in fairness, there's probably like a healthy medium because I, I mean, I would imagine Houston probably I would have looked up in that series and been like, well, shit, we shouldn't have gotten rid of Capella. You know what I mean? It'd be nice to have him right now, you know? That's the thing. Even Capella,

is Capella changing the series against AD? No, because... I mean, it's better. It's better. You got a better chance. But Capella has his own limitations of defending on the perimeter.

I mean, he's more of like a high pick and roll guy against a Damien Load. I'd much rather have played Capella guarding Anthony Davis to PJ Tucker. I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure you're talking about 18 demolished them.

But that's what I'm saying. It's so hard. It's so hard to find a big that, you know, you'd want against AD. Yeah, but I mean, Capella's got a better shot. At least he's tall. Sure.

He's bigger. I mean, he's not six, five. He's bigger and longer. I know, I know. I'm just saying like, but the fact that it's even a question with a guy like Capella who gets paid, you know, $16, 17 million dollars is a good center. And even with him, it's like, uh, maybe he's not a great matchup. And but that was the extreme, which was we're abandoning anything big, right? And so maybe there is like a healthy medium, right?

where you find, yeah, you've got somebody besides Tyson Chandler on your bench, you know, that you could throw in there if the guy is murdering you. But on the other hand, you're also not playing their game. You're playing your game, right? Because it might be a trap to try to say, all right, we want to try to match up with this. You ain't matching up with it. That's exactly what I'm saying. You're not matching up with it.

So you got to maximize what you have and who you are because the contenders out there all do play dramatically different styles. Or at least are assembled differently. I mentioned the back court shooting with the Warriors, the forward go-to scores with the clippers, you know, size with the nuggets, or, you know, two big guys with LeBron and AD. I feel like everybody overthinks the fact that LeBron is 6-8, 260,

whatever he actually weighs right now. I mean, he's a big guy. He's huge. And that's why he's been able to, as his first, step has slowed down over the years. Watch video of him from when he was at the heat. I mean, his first step was so much quicker. It has declined, but he's managed to adjust and adapt by adapting this more bully style using his strength to still get to the rim and finish over 70% at the rim, over 70% at the rim in the postseason. It's remarkable and it is a testament

to his ability to adapt and he'll continue to, man. LeBron's not going away. There's no end in sight to his greatness because he can lean more into his playmaking if he needs to. He can lean more into his interior scoring if he needs to as years go by or just take more threes like we saw with him hitting six in game five. And he did take all those in game five that he nailed. But I think it's been instructive also for other players in the league. You saw obviously his bubble went terribly and I know you're not a huge fan. but for a long portion of time, Russell Westbrook was leading the league in...

No, he was leading the league in points in the paint. I just, I laughed only because I was like, he's going to say Westbrook. Which was fascinating. No, but he's not a shooter. Westbrook, Janice, Ben Simmons, you can go on and on, right? Where it's like, the idea is,

we're going to allow these guys to shoot. We're picking our poison. We're going to allow these guys to shoot. And what these guys have decided, and I do think that this is, is partly because of LeBron and you've seen people deal with him is we that space that you give us we're doing what LeBron does is I use that as it's almost like a plane with a runway. I'm using that space as a runway and I'm going downhill.

Get in my way or try, you know, and most players don't. And so it actually has enabled the guys that are not amazing shooters. it's given them this path to still be incredibly effective offensively, you know, because, okay, if you're going to back up off of me, the best ones in the league, they figured out I'm going to use that space in order to get going downhill and good luck. And by the way, you think the Lakers don't see that as well, you know, as much success as they had with Javelle McGee starting most of the year with Dwight Howard coming off the bench, you think they didn't see Jimmy Butler with

Kelly Olenic or Myers-Lennard and a spaced up floor getting to the rim and think, oh, what if we have like Aaron Baines or Marcus Sol or Sergei Baca instead of Howard or McGee? What if we had Tristan Thompson who shot really well from the three-point line last year in Cleveland and showed more diversity in his game than he ever has before? If I'm the Lakers, I'm like, peace out McGee and Howard. Oh, God.

I mean, you're adding a big who can shoot. If they had a center they could put in the corner. Oh, because, and one of the reasons why it's like, with functional spacing, having a big who can, you know,

catch lobs or, you know, clean up the boards is helpful, you know, having a big in the dunker spot. But I don't think the Lakers have done the best job of utilizing that, especially in the postseason, which means maybe the better approach would be have a big who can do that,

but also spot up from the three point line to have even more. more offensive variety in the half court with what you do and the type of actions that you can run. And for the Lakers, like, I would not be shocked one bit, especially Tristan Thompson, a clutch client. If we see the Lakers go after them. I mean, look, dude, like LeBron, AD, KCP, why not add another one? Is he still, is he still buddies with Channing Fry? Horton Tucker as well is also a clutch client. I mean, soon enough, it's going to be, the Lakers are going to be all clutch. God, look at Rob Lowe putting together the Kluckr roster.

He looked exactly like Rob Lowe in that hat the other night. It was crazy. I'm like, what is Rob Lowe doing up on the stage? And Rob Lowe, aka Rob Polika here, I mean, dude, he can make this team even better. Oh, yeah. He can make them better. Look, I'm the one that shit on the sporty castle. I didn't think it was good enough.

And in fairness, Ray John Rondo, for that playoffs, Rayon Rondo shot 45 46% from the field and 40% from three. Awesome. The highest field goal percentage for another player on that team, you want to take a guess who had the highest field goal percentage, obviously not AD, not LeBron. And I'm saying Rondo was third with 46%. The next highest field goal percentage was Kyle Kuzma.

Kuzva. Kuzva, really? Field goal percentage, okay. 43% from the field. The highest three point percentage was Kuzva. KCP, 38%. KCP shot really well. So 38% for KCP from

3, 43% from Ksma. Rondo shot 46% from the field and 40% from 3 throughout that playoff run. Unbelievable. I've never seen a player like him, ever. Where it's like, I mean, we started this, but when he got

hurt in the bubble, it's like, you know, maybe it's a blessing in the sky because the numbers with Caruso were unbelievable. and Rondo was their third best player. It was unbelievable. I think there's a lesson here with Rondo that numbers, whatever they may be. There's something to be said about the chemistry aspect with how guys feel and how they operate on the court. And clearly a lot of the guys like playing with Rondo.

There's liked having him on the court, the way he facilitated, the energy he brought, the communication. Not a perfect player, you know, makes mistakes, isn't the best shooter. But guys like playing with him. You know why? Because obviously I do a show with Tony Allen every week and he loves Rondo. And that's a guy that was just a role player. It's because if you cut to the basket, Rondo finds you. Everybody likes the guy that passes.

It's the lesson here. And guess what Raja Rondo does? He passes. And by the way, like end of game five, if it was Rondo offensive rebounding that instead of Morris, he probably would have found LeBron. He delivered him the ball. but that's a I saw this great clip the other day

which I had missed during the game it's at the end of that game before they're about to run that play and they're going to get set up so Miami scores and the ball like drops down to the ground Rondo kicks it to the corner like he like stumbles over it

but it's just like this insanely veteran savvy thing so the referee's got to go all the way to the quarter to get it which is now enabling his team more time to get set up for what they're about to go run. And I was like, that's the kind of stuff. You know what I'm saying?

Like he's thinking, he's thinking, like he has no reason, like the ball is not, he clearly just kicks the ball, right, on purpose, you know, just so the ref's going to have to go get it so that they're going to go be able to go down there and set up in their play instead of having to, he's just giving them a little extra time, you know? And between that veteran savvy, obviously this maniacal studying, of film and then the fact that he passes to everybody.

Of course, everybody loves Rayjon, Ron. And seeing him have the game, he did in Game 6, 19 points on 8 of 11 shooting with four rebounds and four assists and really great defense too. It brought me back to my years just loving Rondo and rooting for him harder than like almost any player. Growing up a hardcore Celtics fan, like I remember that 06-07 Celtics team when Rondo was just a kid and then the Celtics get the big three, it's like, who's going to be the point card?

I remember thinking, Rondo can be that guy because of his passing ability. And to see him grow with that big three, with the Celtics and become a star player, the game six performance with the Lakers brought me back to his 2012 game to East Finals game against the Miami Heat, where I think that was peak Rondo, 44 points, 10 assists. in a loss, one of the great games that are lost in recent playoff history. Rondo at his peak was one of my favorite players that I'll ever watch in my lifetime, with the energy he brought, with the types of layups he hit, the passes that he makes, the way he made his teammates better.

And the way he's declined is actually, like, the fan in me, like, it's been kind of sad to see just him not be a relevant player and bounce team to team. But to see him make contributions on the biggest stage, was just really fun to see, you know, the career kind of come full circle in that way and for him to adapt and still make a winning impact. It's just cool because I used to love Rondo so much, man. I used to have my long Rondo T-shirts.

He used to, like, he's my favorite player on the Southwax. He was. If I, you know, my son's 10, if I told my son that Rajon Rondo scored 44 points in a game, in a game. He wouldn't believe it, right? Never. He wouldn't believe you.

In a million years. But it is, and I brought this up a couple of weeks ago when I was talking about him shooting three. and now it's real and about how he doesn't jump on them anymore and it is very Jason Kidd-esque, who happens to be an assistant coach for the Lakers. This whole thing is very Jason Kidd-esque. It really is.

Like Jason Kidd was in the finals with that Nets team. And Jason Kidd, I think, is one of the most underrated players in NBA history. And then he shows up there at the end and he wins that title with Dallas. as he's not the guy anymore, but he is still an awesome contributor. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is very, it's very similar to me.

Like early in his career, this guy is a guy that can dominate an entire game, and that time is done. But he's still a guy that can help you go out there and win a title. And obviously, Kid did that. Kid was not anywhere close to his prime when he won that title. but he was a massive contributor to that title. You know what I mean? Being all that veteran savvy and then becoming a three-point shooter,

much like Rondo. And you know what? We saw that from a lot of guys on the Lakers with Dwight Howard, somebody who, you know, a lot of teams gave up on and rightfully so because he struggled, you know, for some time. He wouldn't accept, you know, a cleanup guy role. He still wanted to post up and all that.

But, you know, Lakers were able to maximize him coming off the bench. Jabel McGee with the Warriors. and then again with the Lakers, sometimes for players, it's just about the right role and the right situation to minimize what their weaknesses are and to maximize their strengths as players.

And, you know, McGee and Howard, obviously their roles diminished as the playoffs went on considering the nature of the game. But, you know, with Rondo and those guys, it's just kind of cool

to see the Lakers take some castaways and turn them into contributors to a championship. Last thing before we get out of here today, you know that LeBron winning that title set off a whole other round of LeBron Jordan, goat debates, goat analyses, everything else. And I think it is even more heightened given that during the quarantine, we all sat around and watched the last dance, right? And so it was like, okay, we all just watched the last dance. This is never going to be an argument. and then LeBron wins the title.

It's like, oh, here we go again with the argument. The first thing I will ask you, and I know this is something that you've said on a million podcasts that we've done throughout the year, the resume is not complete, right? Bingo. And we need to wait until the resume is complete because it could be a different story when the resume is complete.

He might end up having six titles. You know what I mean? Like if they went, if they won the next two, with Anthony Davis at ages 28 and 29, it's not all that shocking, especially if they get a better supported cast, you know, then they're going to be a bitch to deal with.

And if anybody improves too, he's only 27. And so I do think that the resume is incomplete the other, but the biggest thing is, I unlike many other players, like, I just watched him. and he just won that finals MVP.

And I know you just said, if you watch back to Miami, he's lost a step from there. And that's clearly true. But what are the chances LeBron James isn't amazing for the next three years? I think low. I feel like they're low, right? As long as he's healthy, it's zero.

Right. If he's healthy, it's actually zero. How old is he right now? 35. 35. So he'll be 36 for the 20, 21 season. Is there any,

is there any chance he's not amazing at 38? Like I see very low chance. Again, again, pending good health, zero. I know. He is equipped to be a really high level player into his 40s. He is.

He just, he just is. Because even if LeBron's first step continues to get a bit slower, he can just revert to do more playmaking. He might, be the best passer in all of basketball. He might be. I mean, Yokic is

a more talented passer with the types of deliveries, you know, the passes that he can make were like it seems like he has eyes, you know, 360 vision. LeBron has more versatility with like his ability to drive from the perimeter and still deliver some high degree of difficulty passes.

He's always going to have that no matter how much he slows down. In addition to the fact that he is just bigger than you, he's just bigger. And he can get where he wants. He could post up more if he really needs to. Lakers use that quite a lot this year. We saw LeBron post up maybe more than he ever has

in his career. He's always going to have that. So he's always going to be a good player. And he's also always going to be a freako athlete. You know what I mean? I knew Vince Carter. Vince Carter can still go between his legs. And he's on a dunk. He's had 100 million injuries.

100 million. Like, LeBron's going to be able to dunk until he's 95 years old. Right? And so the thing is, Like, what are the chances? Like, I don't know. Like, I think it is hard for me to imagine him sucking. You know what I mean?

It's hard for me to imagine. He'll never suck. But I mean, even. Boris Dior didn't suck at his last year. And LeBron, LeBron at 50 years old, can be Boris Dia if he wants to be. You know what I'm saying? But it's just hard to, isn't it hard to fathom where. he's not good?

Like I don't know what age I could foresee. Like maybe like, it's not going to happen. It's just not. It's not going to happen. Like even Jordan was still good with his way. We're never going to see LeBron suck. We're never going to see him. He's going to retire as a good player.

Well, Jordan obviously was still good with the Wizards. Of course, because he's that level of player, which is why this is even going to be, it is a debate. But like to get back to your original point, you know, that I've brought up over and over over the years, LeBron's story still. being written. Still being written. Year 17, age 35,

just won his fourth championship with his fourth finals MVP, finished second and MVP voting. For him, there's more years to come where he's climbing the leaderboards with career points in the regular season in playoffs, career assists,

rebounds, wins, games played, minutes played, all that individual stuff, maybe other all NBA awards. He already leads all time with most all NBA honors ever. He's going to get more of those. He's going to get more votes.

blah, blah, on and on and on, and he's going to compete for more championships. How many does he finish with? I don't know. I've said the Lakers will win multiple championships with LeBron and AD. I stand by that. I'd expect at least one more from them. Maybe more. Maybe more.

And for LeBron, we can debate LeBron versus Jordan. All we want to. All I know is one of those guys is done. His career is over. That's right. The book is closed. One of them is still going with no end in sight. So we'll see how this looks 15 years from now

when we can look back on LeBron's career When he's still playing? Look back on Jordan's career How long would he be? At that point, I think LeBron is the greatest player of all time because of his versatility overall. LeBron, Michael Jordan, a better score.

LeBron a better overall player. But the fact is, Michael Jordan did win six. He won six and his peak was, perhaps higher. But LeBron's not done yet. There could be six more years of him competing for championships. And if he goes into year 23 still as a title favorite, still is a guy who's really,

really good. I don't know, man. He's going to have a long resume behind him and potential for still more. You know, you see as soon as as LeBron wins and you see, you know, these become real fights, right? The LeBron lovers at the George. And I don't know if you saw that meme. And my buddy, Nick Wright, one of the biggest instigators of that.

I love it. What did you see the, uh, the meme with the, the trophies? And it said, and it said the, uh, it said the trophies and it was like championships, MVP's finals MVP's defensive player of the years, rookie of the years, all star game MVP's, like all, anything you could get a trophy for. And it was like Jordan 22. And then it was like Russell, Karim. And then like, I think, I think LeBron had like 14.

14 of the total. And like, so Jordan was like far in a way. And then you see a lot of the, hey, if you like this, if you like this, if you like this, then that's your guy. If you like all of it, then Jordan is your guy. And so you've gotten all these like big debates. But again, like you're saying, okay, fine. It says 22 to 14, it turns of trophies right now.

Like, hell, the story's not done. Like if we'll probably for five more years being awesome, it would not. shocked me, like seriously. And at that point, he like breaks Kareem's record for the most points ever in NBA history. Like, he holds every record and every playoff record ever.

Ever. Like, he holds every record that there is. He's like, says LeBron James. Like, it's remarkable. And at that point, like, bro, it just opened up a friggin almanac and it's like, all right, like, what am I going to say? Like, okay, this guy's peak was

better, but this guy's, holds every record in the regular season. He holds points, assists, rebounds. He holds, and then he holds all the records in the playoffs too. Like, and this, then this is why, this is why I always say don't take LeBron James for granted. I know you do. Because it's happening right now in front of us.

It's all happening right now. And, and you can't, you know, let yourself get distracted by thinking about, you know, these goat debates. You can, you can debate at all. want, but don't let it distract from what's happening right in front of you with this story still being written by LeBron James. And, you know, it's just really, really, really cool to see his career from what, I mean, look, dude, when I first got like a Sports Illustrated subscription, it was 2002 Christmas. My dad got me one because Sports Illustrated for kids. I guess I was getting

too old for that or whatever. I remember Jordan was on the cover of one of the first ones I got in a wizard's jersey. And then LeBron was on the cover. The St. Mary's? That's the chosen one cover. And that was my first exposure to LeBron James. 2002. So I was 12 years old.

No, it was early 2003. I don't know, whatever. Who cares about the years? I was a little boy. I wasn't even a teenager yet. And I'm 30 now. 30 years old when I was 11 or 12 when I first learned of him. And this guy over two decades, almost two decades,

has exceeded expectations and is still going. Exceeded expectations and still going. Your son wasn't alive when LeBron James started all this. And he might be a teenager in high school when LeBron is still going. Like there are so few things, and I feel this way about Tom Bertie, too, being a Patriots fan. There are so few things that thread throughout time and all the changes in our own personal lives. And sports is one of the sort of the connecting factor.

throughout. So like Brady for me is a Patriots fan and LeBron James as an NBA fan just have threaded throughout my entire life. And if you're if you're taking that for granted, I mean, I think you're probably taking a lot else for granted. So, so you can't take anything for granted. You want to hear an insane story? And this is, this is crazy the way it plays out because about a week and a half ago, I ran into this guy for the first time in years. There was this guy named Pete Cordellie. Pete Cordellie was an assistant football coach for the 1988 Notre Dame National Championship team with Lou Holtz. And the reason he's significant is because when I first started my radio career, they put me on the air with this guy, Pete Cordellie. He was,

he was living in Memphis. He was done coaching football. And he was on the air. His co-host left. I was very young. And they threw me in there with him. And so, Basically, I would just be so he could bounce stuff off of me. I would talk here and there. And I was so nervous the entire time. And I just ran into Pete about a week and a half ago, and I mentioned this to him. Because for whatever reason, this is burned in my mind. So I'm on the radio.

This is, again, over 20 years ago. And I say, I tell him, I will never forget the first time I heard LeBron James' name. his friend Pete's friend who he had coached with at Notre Dame had left and gone to Ohio State and Pete came into the show one day and he said my friend blah blah blah just told me he saw the best football player he's ever seen and it was a freshman and I said what and he said there is a kid in Akron named LeBron James and it's a first time I ever heard of it. This coach at Ohio State had called Pete and said, I just saw the best football player I've ever seen. And it was LeBron James. And that's when I heard his name. So fast forward

a year later, he's the best basketball player in the country. And I told Pete. And so I saw Pete, who's now obviously much older. I saw him at a golf course. And I said, do you remember this? And he goes, do I remember it? And he's like, because my buddy called me and said, yeah, we're never getting him, Pete, you know, because the kid's never going to play football again. He's that great at basketball. But as a 15-year-old, one of my buddy or this coach that I was doing the show with, his friend from Ohio State called him and said, I just saw the best football player I've ever seen. Is that crazy or what? Six foot eight wide receiver.

Yes. Who runs like a gazelle. who can leap, you know, over the goalposts. Yes. I can't imagine what it was like for that guy at OSU to scout LeBron James. Yeah. And he left. I mean, that's how good LeBron was at football.

A freaking Ohio State coach left and called his friend and said, I just saw the best football player I've ever seen. That's what LeBron. That's what's so inspirational about LeBron to me is the fact that you have this guy who obviously is gifted with his size, with his athleticism, with his brain, the ability to read the floor, the vision that he has. But also, you know, despite all that, despite signing a $90 million Nike contract before he was in the NBA,

despite going number one, being the chosen one, despite being the guy who people said before he ever was in the NBA was the next one, he never took any of it for granted. He never became complacent. He never won. throughout his career, reached that point where he's like, yeah, I'm not going to try working harder and getting better. Even after this fourth finals, according to Chris Haynes and his Yahoo Sports story, said

that LeBron told 80 in the locker room, we've got more work to do. Already, there's something more. There's something more to strive for. This is a Tom Brady quote when he's asked, what ringers your favorite? He says the next one. And that's the same thing with LeBron James. And to me, it's so easy in life to get complacent. and sometimes, you know, just sort of like just chill out.

And sometimes it's important to chill out sometimes. You know, mental, you know, mental, you know, how is important. Work-life balance is important. But also continuing to strive for greatness to take LeBron's line is important. And that's where LeBron, you know, sort of served as a reminder for me, you know, watching these great athletes and the importance of just working hard and, you know, putting your all into what it is that you love and what you care about. And, you know, to see him, you know, in year 17, when his fourth final,

and still have no end in sight is a testament to not only his gifts, but also just to his mind and his approach to the game and his approach to something that he is not at all taken for granted throughout his life and throughout his career. And people can hate LeBron for being in the league and for beating their teams and for whatever else. But I think that's something that always is deserving of respect as a person. Well, and that level of appreciation.

it is so hard to give in the moment. But if there is ever a lesson, as we tie this all up, if there was ever a lesson that we needed to learn about appreciating in the moment, it was Kobe's passing. Because whatever your opinion was and how everybody got so heated over Kobe debates and everything else,

you saw the outpouring of love and you saw what he really meant to people when he died. You know what I'm saying? and it's like a lot of the same reasons the work. I mean are we are we screaming and yelling about how he's still not Kobe to L.A. fans and what you know what I'm saying? Like I mean I do I think it does put into perspective all of this. You know it's it's it seems so insane to think but you know as well as I do.

If Kobe's still here we're talking about how many more does he have to win in order to be you know, Kobe and it's like his passing put so much into perspective. in terms of how we appreciate each other and our heroes or those that we talk about and cover on a regular basis, you know, because people started, people talk about Kobe Bryant

in much greater reverence, which he is deserving of because he passed away. You know what I'm saying? If he's here, I don't think, we know that. We know that to be true

of people that pass away, and it's so sad that it takes them. that's why everybody always says give these people their flowers while they're here yeah i think i think we could all we could all try to do a little bit more of that given giving people flowers while they're here and then that's um i think i think honesty sometimes is the hardest you know thing for people to have is to be honest with themselves and then with others but you know ultimately being honest with others is what was is what can connect people and bring them closer together and you know and and that's why like the other night I tweeted, you know, thank you to everybody for following along this past year.

You know, losing my dad has been really hard, but like talking basketball with people watching the game of people on Twitter, talking about it with you every Tuesday and Friday. That helps, you know? You know, like, you're all friends. Like, people who listen will be, we may never meet ever. Well, you're a friend to me for that. No. And I think that's important to express those emotions to the people in your life that you care about. Yeah.

And a special thanks as we close this out today. this is easily the most insane year, you know, obviously with everything that you went through personally. We all went through. But then basketball-wise and what we went through season-wise and the fact that this is now the completion of, it took 355 days. And we never missed a show during all of that quarantine stuff and everything. And the audience stuck with us through all of that, through all kinds of different mail bags. and lists, and we had no basketball going on.

And so we are forever indebted to all of you that stuck through that. I mean, it was not the easiest thing in the world to do an NBA podcast every Tuesday and Friday with no games and no games in sight. And we're sitting there like, all right, what are we going to talk about on Tuesday? But we kept doing the show the entire time and you guys stuck with us the entire time and supplied us with all kinds of great questions. questions that we made away, you know? And so there is like this, you know, as this season completes, it's, well, I pray to God, we never go through a season like this ever again as long as we live. But we made it through.

Like, we got to the end of it, you know? We got to the end of it. And so I'm deeply appreciative to everybody that tunes in and, like, didn't press unsubscribe, you know. For sure. Yeah. When it mattered. Thank you.

Thank you, Ted. everybody for listening. I mean, like it's, we talked about this recently on the fourth, you know, anniversary of our fourth, you know, you're doing this together. It's been a awesome journey and, and the season's over, you know, but there's still more to come. We have the offseason, the draft and free agency and all that and lots to come up, coaching rumors, trade rumors, and on Friday show, you know, we're going to do a mailbag, at least for this Friday. We'll see if we continue that each Friday. To close out the season. But at least we'll be doing a mailbag on a,

Friday. So if you do want to submit questions, send those, send those over to NBA mailbag at gmail.com. And we'll look through those with our producer Sasha and we'll find some good ones to answer on Friday show after we talk about the news of the week on top. And I'm sure we will have some news on Friday, you know, or at least rumors, especially coaching rumors. Oh, for sure. It's got to be coaching rumors out there. Like I said earlier, don't be surprised. Here's Stan Van Gundy's name in coaching rumors this week. where? New Orleans.

That's the place I've heard him connected to. Will he get hired there? I don't know. There's a lot of Jason kid noise. There's still Tyloo noise about New Orleans. But I have heard Stan Van Gundy connected to the Pelicans. We'll see if anything materializes. But there's a lot.

Look, coaching carousel is crazy right now in the NBA. Trade and drafts rumors to come. NBA mailbag at gmail.com. Send in those questions. Thanks to producer Sasha as Always, Kevin. I'll talk to you on Friday. I look forward to it, Chris. I've got to week, everybody.