The Ringer NBA Show - Howard Beck on How Much Longer the Warriors Can Keep Winning, LeBron James Vs. Stephen Curry, and the 76ers Without Joel Embiid | Real Ones

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

Logan and Raja are joined by longtime NBA sportswriter Howard Beck to discuss Stephen Curry’s historic Game 7 performance and how long the Golden State Warriors can sustain their playoff run (1:26). Along the way, they talk about the upcoming Western Conference semifinals matchup between the Warriors and the Los Angeles Lakers (14:55). Next, the guys preview Monday’s matchups between PHI-BOS and PHX-DEN (30:15). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Higigigee. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league. And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

What is popping real ones Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Roger, we got a special guest in the building. One who needs no introduction, but I'm going to give it to him anyway. Howard, Mother fucking Beck. What's popping, Howard?

How are you doing? That's the greatest fucking intro I've ever had. I don't think I've ever been introed as Howard, motherfucking Beck before. I like that. I'm going to put that on my next business card. What's up, guys? Yes.

Oh, man. We're chilling, man. We're chilling. How you doing, Roy? You good? Slow motion, baby. Ready to go. Yeah, okay.

We're coming a day after Steph Curry drops 50, a 50 ball on the Kings on the road to seal a 120, 100 game 7 win in Sacramento. Warriors are going on to the next round. I was at this game, but the first question, I think I want to pose this to Howard. Is this Steph Curry game a referendum of what he needs to do for the Warriors to be successful night in and night out in this postseason? or was that just what was necessary for this game seven? I tend to think it was just what was necessary on this particular day, this particular game. And it's kind of the way it's supposed to be, right?

Like, if you're in a game seven, anybody, any team, any time, any era, dynasty, no dynasty. You're in a game seven and it's desperation time. And you're on the road besides, you're looking at your best player and going, hey, Steph, hey, LeBron, hey, KD, hey Kobe. like your time man this is what you do um carry us home uh it's it that's not a time you're expecting like the andrew wiggins game or the jordan pool game or like the derrick fisher game you know what i mean like it's like that is what game sevens are for and i've never never looked this up it'd be kind of a fun little study but i'm going to guess in the history of game

sevens especially you know if you're looking at the winners of all the game sevens i'm going to guess like 99.9% of the time, it's the Hall of Famer who carry his team on that night. And so that, it's just the way it should be, right? It's like Draymond said. Like, I didn't know he was going to go for 50. I just knew he wasn't going to let us lose. And I think, like, that's how we view the all-time greats, right?

That dude's not going to let his team lose. And Steph wasn't going to let it happen. And it's not to say that, to your point about referendum on which, you know, a referendum on the Warriors. this particular version of them. We know there's going to be sometime between now and whenever they finish. There's going to be another clay game. There just will.

There might even be an Andrew Wiggins game in there. Maybe we'll even see another Jordan Pool game. I don't know where Jordan Pool is or where the guy from last May and June has gone. But somebody else is going to have a night or a couple of them. But, yeah, they needed Steph. They needed like, you know, turbocharged Steph. you know, and they got it. What did you think of the performance, Rob?

Well, you know, we talk all that. First of all, it was a masterful performance by Steph. Like, you know, came out, was getting the dirty buckets, like getting downhill, you know, like sprinkling in a three here or there, but just, you know, was there to say to Sacramento that physically, yo, I'm here. You know what I mean? I might be, I don't know, six, whatever he is in 195, but physically I'm here. I'm here for it.

I'm not just going to live at this three point line. I'm coming downhill. I'm getting into chests. And then the game just kind of blossomed and took shape from theirs. But I appreciate that. I talked about Jason Tatum last week in a big game. And he bounced back well. But in a game when you needed it with the two free throws,

it suggested that you were just living outside on that perimeter in a way that if you're a star and you've got it cooking, that's fine. But if you don't, we're going to need you to try to get it how you live tonight. And I think Steph was there to show you last night. Like that's what greats do. Like, all right, bet. I'm not just going to live with this. I'm going to hurt you from all different areas.

It's going to wind up opening things up. So I appreciated that. And we talk about, you know, there's levels to all of this shit, man. And those are separators. When you're in situations like that and a draymond is saying, look, I didn't know it was 50, but I knew he wasn't going to let us lose. Like when someone can say that about you, that is a separator. And, you know, there are players on the King's team.

that might not have had their best performance in the game seven, and that's no shade. Some of them might ascend to a point, you know, somewhere close to that in their career. It's all part of the learning curve. Like Steph's been through this a lot, but those become separators. Game sevens, big stages. You know, for some people, it's regular season of playoffs.

It's as simple as that. Some people don't show up in a playoffs, right? Like, that's a separator. Some people can ball in the playoffs at home. Don't play on the road. You know, some people can play at home and on the road. don't show up as you get later in series. Some people can show up later in series,

but game seven, they go missing. Like, they're separators at every level, and that's why he's an all-time great because you put him, there was no question, you were going, no question, maybe not a 50 ball, but to Draymond's point, no question.

It was interesting because it was one of those games where, and Howard has seen a lot of these games is throughout the Warriors run. I've seen a lot of these games without the Warriors run where there's a palpable buzz of what the fuck is going to happen. Like pregame,

what are we going to see? here, right? I was at the game yesterday. And there was this buzz of like, is this going to be the end of the Warriors? Is this it? Because if they lose this game, it's not going to look the same. We don't know who's going to be on a team next year outside of

Steph. We don't know. This is the end of the dynasty right now as we know it if they lose this game. That was the buzz pregame. There was a even people, even, you know, the Warriors brass exudes a lot of confidence at all times. And there were people on

in the Warriors orbit that were like, I don't know. This could go either way because there was the look in the King's eyes that they could go do this, especially after going into game six and going into Chase Center and winning in the way that they did. There was a lot of confidence, bro. And Malik Monk

said after the game, after game six, oh yeah, they look old and tired. The warriors look old and tired and we took advantage of that in game six. There were a lot of people that were poking the bear and there were lot of people that were questioning whether this was going to happen. What does that do for a team? We'll start with Raja and then go to Howard. What does that do to a team when they hear all of this

noise, especially a veteran group, when they hear all these things going on, and then they have to go out and produce into a game seven in the way that they did. First of all, I mean, a team like the Warriors with that championship DNA, they don't need anything. They don't need anything more than a game seven. I mean, everyone understands what, what? at stake here. Everyone's, you know, for the most part, been in this situation and, and for the most part understands, you know, how we have to conduct ourselves and, and, and the level of intensity and, you know, the level of concentration that's required to win. And so, you know, let's just start there because some teams don't. Like, the Warriors don't

need shit. Like, game seven, bro, we're locked in. Let's go. We got it. We know how to do this. Having said that, right? And this is perfect. I love Howard. I don't know if you know, but Logan knows this. I love to boil shit down to like really simple shit. This is what I say to my sons. I had this conversation with one of them yesterday leaving an AAU game. Why do you feel the need to talk shit? Don't say anything to them.

Just go out there and let your game do the talking, bro. It will say everything that needs to be said. If you start talking shit to the wrong person at the wrong time, you've given them just enough. And I say, again, I don't know. the Warriors needed it, but it didn't fucking help. Like, really, it just didn't help. And so, like,

if you were going to be, how about this, Malik Munk, and I like Malik Munk, I think he's a good player. We love Malik Munk on the show. Word. But, but, but like, we ain't gonna do all of that talking and come out and go four for 14. Like, we, you know what I mean? Like, and I'm not, there was a lot of, there was a lot

of chest sticking out after that game, Howard. When, after that game, there was a lot of, there was a lot of, there was a lot of, hey, we did this. We're back. We did all, we were here. I'm just saying, look, sorry, Howard, I'm going to let you go. My point to my son, and it would be to anyone who does that is, the job's not done. So it doesn't, there's no real need to be adding any gas to the fire or putting any bulletin board up, you know, bulletin board material up for anyone.

Like, I've always subscribed to like, yo, keep it humble, keep your mouth shut and go out there and let's, unless throw these things and we'll see where the chips fall. But, you know, I don't know that that's the reason. Golden State, you know, got over the hump. I doubt it very seriously, but it just don't make no sense to do it. No, it's like Dylan Brooks and LeBron, right? Like, LeBron is an all-time great who has established his greatness a million times over. He doesn't need to beat the Grizzlies or beat Dylan Brooks personally for us to know who LeBron is and his importance, his greatness, everything.

LeBron doesn't need to do anything. But if you gave him an extra percent, or two Dylan Brooks, whatever it was, whatever tiny little extra little umph there was there, like you didn't need to do it, right? And there's a little bit of that too, I think, with the king sticking out their chest a little.

I'm not saying that's what happened, you know, between Raja and Kobe back in the day, but I'm just saying it's not what happened. Yeah, except he got his ass work. Hmm. Yeah I mean, like, yo, hey, back. I wasn't there the day that you provoked. I was there for the press, like his press availability at El Segundo at their practice facility the next day,

because I was parachuting into the series, Raja. So I was there for the day that Kobe says, I don't know this kid. Who is this kid? I don't know, as if he had never played against you, like, I don't know, six years earlier in the finals when you were with the Sixers or whatever. But I don't know. That was comical. I was there that day. I just had to throw that out.

Yeah, it's all good. It's all good. And it was my guy. Those were good times. And yeah, no, very, look, I mean, a little different dynamic in that we were, we were down in that series and we were getting pushed around in that series. So, like, we weren't out in front having one. We were behind in that.

And so, you know, again, worked out for me. Might not have worked out for me. But, you know, since they did, I get to talk my shit. Can you dig what I'm saying? Like, so if you want to do that, if you want to do that, go ahead and handle your business. That's all I would say. And luckily for me, my teammates did because I was suspended. Shout out to Thomas.

But I'll say this too, Roger. Like, there's some level to this where I don't mind that the Kings had a little bravado, right? Even with Dylan Brooks, I didn't mind some of the bravado, but it spilled over and it went too far. And also then he didn't face up to the music. He didn't want to be accountable and he started ducking the media every day. And again, I always make this disclaimer when I say that. It's not about us. I don't care that you did not want to talk to us.

I'm not personally offended. But you leave it then to your teammates, who were not the ones talking shit, to then have to answer for the loss or for whatever you said or this distraction or LeBron going off or whatever it is. The accountability has to do with speaking to us because that's how you are accountable to your fans and to the public in general. So it's not about us. But Dylan Brooks didn't want to deal with it.

And I don't like the kings are a young, up and coming team. team that had this breakthrough season, they should be absolutely proud of everything they did, no matter when this run ended for them. To me, the season is a wild success. You ended a fucking 17-year drought and you push the defending champs to the absolute limits. They should be damn proud of everything, right? And they have the right, even to stick their chests out a little bit. Like, I don't mind some of the bravado. You just got to be careful as to how far it goes. You don't need it to extend to insulting the defending champs, the only living dynasty. That's where you're now asking for it. That's where you're tempting fate and tempting the greatness

of your opponent. I couldn't agree with you more, Howard. I said with the Dylan Brooks thing, and I totally understand that. And I do think there's a certain level of, of, for lack of a better term, disrespect that you have to have for an opponent. Like, you can't be in just, like, oh my God, you're a deity and I can't play with you mode. Like, you can't do that. I always reference that. So I agree 100%. And I think you hit the nail on the head and I'll say it again.

That goes to a point. And once it becomes like a little disrespectful to what LeBron's capable of doing and you're insulting his greatness or even the Kings, I didn't mind it until you start, once you start calling them old, and this is part of the learning curve for them. Like now you've crossed a line where it could be on someone's bulletin board, where it would have been really easy to just stop, full stop, right before you said that. And everyone would have understood what you meant and you didn't make the statement that gets on someone's bulletin board. And I even thought that they came out, I thought Sacramento, you know, first of all, they're playing

with house money. Secondly, they did not embarrass themselves at all in that shit. They were there toe to toe, blow for blow, you know, until somewhere in that third quarter and then champs became champs, right? And all time greats did all time great stuff. So no reason to hang ahead. No reason to feel bad in any way, shape, or form. But certainly, as any champ would tell you, this is a learning process. Like, this is great experience. Let's put it in the memory bank,

even how we conduct ourselves in game six's post-game if we win them. And that's all part of it. But I thought they represented well. Shit, I loved watching. I was dope. I think he's playing some of the best ball he's ever played in this life at this age.

And he's still young. But this man is in. He's my top. He's number one to me. Yeah. You know, they can say top five. He's number one to me. I've watched him for many years, man, and he's steady growing. And he's a solid dude overall. Just like on and off the court, great person, always giving back.

Love his family. Just a great man in real life. Like, if those who haven't met him, man, if y'all meet this dude, y'all, I think a lot of people already know he the coolest dude. everything. Super cool. And that's what everybody. And all of this brings us to Steph versus LeBron. And Howard, I've been on this program talking about this. I have made no secret of this is what we wanted and what I wanted as a consumer of basketball and a viewer of basketball. The streets needed it, Howard. What will this do in particular? Because we know we know the history between these two players and we know it's a complicated history right

lebron is lebron is the the best player of his generation consistently playing and lose lost two out of three to the best team of this generation right so it's a kind of it's a weird balance that we're that we're we're we're seeing with this rivalry so all that to ask you whose legacy in terms of steff versus lebron which one is on the line in this series and how is this going to play out if either of them wins how does that affect the other player?

So first of all, we should all just be thrilled this happened at all because given where the Lakers have been the last couple of seasons all the way up until they make a season saving series of trades at the trade deadline a few months ago, you didn't know if the Lakers were going to ever

have a run in them again, frankly. Given LeBron's age, given the state of the Lakers roster for the last couple, years, given Anthony Davis's health issues, didn't know the Lakers, you know, there was no guarantee they were ever going to be here again. And then with the Warriors, what we all thought they would be, we didn't know how long they'd be able to stick around in this postseason after a really wonky regular season. Listen, I, before this postseason started, because the West is so strange this year. And every single team has like easily identifiable deficient.

or flaws or concerns, given everything, when asked before the postseason started, I said, you know what? I still lean warriors. I still lean warriors because they're the proven commodity. I don't care what happened in the regular season. That's the team I trust. I don't know if I trust the rest of these teams based on the obvious things with the haul of them. We could go through it. We don't need to. And so I'm not as surprised to see the warriors here. Although, look, I picked both these teams to win in the first round series. they have both recovered really nicely. And now, now we get this, right?

The most unlikely rivalry you could have ever anticipated, right? You go back to when, like, Steph is drafted. I mean, we don't know if Steph's going to have this trajectory at all anyway. But even once Steph becomes Steph, the idea that the rivalry, the personal rivalry of this generation, and we can talk LeBron versus KD, and there's a little bit of LeBron and Kawhi, and there's all these other things, right? But, like, it's kind of LeBron and Steph now. Like, they've each got their four rings.

they've met in the finals four times. So now they're meeting in a second round series. Now this is their fifth head to head. They don't play the same. They don't look the same. There's nothing about them that's the same, except that they have, I think, a 14-year now overlap in their careers. And when we talk about this era, who's going to define the era?

There's some Kevin Durant in there, for sure. Janice is the younger part of this so I'm kind of counting him as like the next generation right but I was making a list earlier like who else has defined this generation it's really LeBron and Steph KD is like right behind them and then there's like the supporting cast for defining the era

is like James Harding, Kauai Leonard Chris Paul, Dame Lillard Anthony Davis, a little bit of Jimmy a little bit of Kyrie little bit of Russ Russ is on the list so those are all the guys that like off the top of my head I thought are like kind of defining the era right I don't if I missed anybody, but like the headliners of the era are Steph and LeBron. Roger's laughing.

No, I just, no, nothing. I appreciated Logan sliding in my guy Russ. I appreciate that. I got you, big dog. So like, it's going to matter, right? Like, this is not for the chip. This is not the same as if they were meeting in the finals again, which obviously became impossible once LeBron came to the West.

But it still matters because, listen, it's probably the last time this is going to happen, right? Far be it from many of us to say it's the last anything, right? These guys are freaking eternal. We may be right back here a year from now for all I know, or in the conference finals a year from now. But this might be it. So, like, one, let's just appreciate it.

Does it change how we'll view either of them by who wins? Probably not, right? We're going to judge them mostly on their rings, their stack of MVP trophies and their finals MVP trophies. LeBron's got a big lead in all these other categories, right? They're tied in rings. but like LeBron's got four finals MVP's to Steph's one.

The bronze got four regular season MVP to Steph's two. LeBron's got ten finals to Steph's six, although Steph maybe could get a seventh. LeBron could get an 11th for all we know. LeBron's the all-time scoring leader. Steph still needs another three or four years to crack the top ten.

And part of that is that like he came in the league, you know, six years after LeBron did. So I don't even like comparing them in that regard other than they're the two defining players of their era in very, very different ways. does one guy need this series victory more than the other with the chance to win another ring?

I guess the argument for LeBron is, hey, he's still kind of chasing the ghost of Jordan on some level. LeBron may disagree, but we are forever going to be trapped in this goat discussion and a fifth ring would help and an 11th finals would help.

But to me, there's nothing about Stefan LeBron that is going to be. going to change now or, like they're both absolutely cemented. Their legacies are absolutely cemented. You can enhance it. It can get a little bit better, a couple percentage points, but I don't need to see anything more from either of these guys against each other or in the finals to, to inform

how I'm going to feel about them for all time. They're established. What are you looking for in this match at Raja? I agree. I agree with Howard. I don't know that legacy would be on the line for either one of them in it. within this series, I mean, this is just, it's going to be really cool to watch. Like, these teams have a lot of similarities in terms of the arc of the season, right?

Like, and both of them, you know, are kind of different versions of themselves, like, you know, Golden State re-infusing, you know, Andrew Wiggins and Gary Payton. And then obviously the trade, you know, that brought this supporting cast to the Lakers. So, like, they're different versions of who they were in first half of the season, which is kind of interesting. I tend to lean Golden State in that because they're bringing in pieces that have already been there and done that with them.

So like, you know, chemistry is going to be interesting to watch. You know, you're dissecting, like, and trying to split hairs.

I think I would lean towards Golden State and that. What the Lakers are able to do with the movement of Golden State, with the pace of their offense, like how they choose to, to,

to guard Steph and to some degree clay coming, coming off of all of this stuff. Like, you know, how they do, that's going to be really interesting. What Kavan Looney is able to do with, with AD. Like,

there's a lot of little things that I'm looking for that you'll get a feel for it, you know, midway through game one, you'll start to, you'll start to see some trends, whether it be good or bad. And, you know,

I'm just really interested in that chess match because if it becomes this, hey, here's what you did and I got a counter, and then here's what you did. And then I got a counter. Then obviously I got to go with Steve Kerr. So I think off the top, you know, if I were putting like, you know, pros and cons and categories, I probably lean towards Golden State having more pros, but that's why they play the game, right?

And, you know, it's going to be really interesting to see how this thing unfolds. But I do think that Golden State would have an advantage in overall cohesiveness and having done this before together. And I think that their offense, well, L.A. is a very good defensive team. And I could be all the way wrong because I got to see it before, you know, but I tend to think that Memphis and their lack of movement at times, we talked about this, Logan, their lack of movement played right into the hands of the Lakers defensively, where Golden State is the antithesis of that.

And I don't know that the Lakers can't handle it, but I'm really interested to see how that plays out. So there's also the argument, Howard, that, you know, it's interesting because one of the frustrating things for the Warriors aspect of this was they could have closed a series out on Friday, which the Lakers did. they close out their series Friday evening against the Grizzlies and the Warriors had to have another two extra days of a playoff series. And, you know, the buzz after the game last night was, man, how was that going to affect Tuesday night where the Warriors are coming into this series with just a day off of rest?

Now, it was, it was an interesting, there is an interesting caveat to that, which is they never had to go on a plane during this series. they just was busing up and down, I-80 down from SAC to back to the Bay Area. But in your eyes, Howard, how will the rest or lack thereof affect, maybe not the series, but at least game one, which is an important get to get on Tuesday night.

How is that going to be, how is rest going to affect that game? Yeah. It's funny to think about the travel, because travel can be draining, especially if you're bouncing back and forth between, it was almost literally, you know, west to east coast, right? like Tennessee is really far east

for the Lakers to have to have damn near East Coast like if you're really going to it's like Atlanta it's damn near East Coast yeah it might as well be like that Memphis is in the Western Conference is kind of preposterous but you know that's the same thing with New Orleans and Minneapolis but anyway I don't know if the travel matters as much as

as actually having to have played your you know played every ounce expended every ounce of energy you possibly had to win Sunday which the Warriors did at least it was like i thought the day game was actually to their disadvantage coming from a friday night game to an afternoon game now it's to their advantage because now they've got you know whatever that that extra few hours from the afternoon sunday game to the evening

tuesday game right um i don't know are they still riding the high are they exhilarated or they exhausted i don't i don't know we may not know until we actually see them get out on the court I do think that between the two teams, the Lakers of the team that most needed those extra days, because LeBron's foot's probably still not right, won't be for a while. And if any one individual, an important individual in this series needs the rest the most, it's LeBron. So it's benefited the Lakers to have the extra days. I don't know if it's necessarily to the detriment of the warriors that they're not getting more time in between. they are an older team not old Malik Munk

just older so you know but Steph Clay Draymond like they've done this so many times and Steph's just like an incredibly well-conditioned athlete and Steph's what like 34

35 whatever he's not 38 he's not LeBron he doesn't have quite that many miles and is otherwise healthy as far as we know so I think they're fine I'm not sure like if the Warriors lose game one we'll probably all chalk it up a little bit to exhaustion and quick turnaround

but I don't know if it's that if that's going to be the most critical thing in this and I do think to the point you guys made already the Warriors movement like the Lakers the Lakers defense is going to have a much much harder time trying to bottle up Steph and the Warriors offense than a Grizzlies

team that really had no half court offense to speak of in the first place you can make the case for either one but I you know I'm always a little leery and I've always got my eye on that everyone always thinks that team that gets the rest has pocketed this advantage. And man, rest can sometimes throw you right out of rhythm. Now, it wasn't any real extended period of rest. You know what I'm saying?

But sometimes it can be counterintuitive like that. Like that team's been sitting there and you have a team coming straight in off of a really high stakes situation. So they're razor sharp in a way that you're just not because you've been sitting at home for two or three days. You understand what I'm saying? So, you know, keep an eye on that. I'm not saying that that's going to be the case. But I would say that the Lakers, the Lakers need to win game one. You know, the Lakers need to handle their business in game one.

They need to get that in the bag. And Golden State is one of those teams where in the scenario that I just described, where you come out and you're a little flat just because you've been kind of sitting around a couple days. And, you know, sometimes, you know, even LeBron James led teams, like they like to groove into a game older teams sometimes like to groove into the game like you get your lather up you ever seen the old dude at 24 hour fitness man it takes him almost the first the whole game you mean you yeah i don't play no most so it ain't me but but you've seen dudes like that man it takes them a while to get going and then they're going but golden state is a team uh you know because of what they do offensively that that's

that's danger like if you if you don't come out and you're not ready to play and they are you know you find yourself in a quick a quick hole fans you know, the arena's dead. You know, you catch a clay game like Howard was talking about or Steph's kind of hot. Like, their Jordan Poole shows up in a way. You just can't be asleep if you're the Lakers. I'm not saying they will be, but I got my eye on that.

They better come out and be sharp. All right, before we get to the next segment, let's go with predictions. I'm going to go first. I'm going to say Warriors and Seven. Howard, who you got? Warriors and Seven sounds right, but I'm going to go just slightly bolder.

I think it's Warriors in six. What do you think, Ra? I mean, this isn't going to be cool if I just agree with you both, right? Like, my heart says you're right. I think, I think, you know, I would lean towards Golden State. I'll also say in six. I think they do it in six. Yeah, it's just what my heart's saying.

All right, let's take a quick break. And then we will talk about the games tonight. And we are back. Let's talk 76 or Celtics. There's a lot of meat on this bone. Juehle and Bede is out. And at least for game one, we don't know how long that is going to last. We don't know how long he is going to be out.

It doesn't really look great for the Sixers' prospects of Jueh and Bid playing. But, you know, whatever happens. First game, a lot of the pressure is going to go on James Hardin. Raja, is James Hardin ready for this moment? And do you see redemption in his future? No. No, I mean, James Harden is ready for the moment. That wasn't just definitive.

That was quick. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But no, this was not a James Harden knock. I think James Harden's ready for it. Shit, yeah. Like, I think, you know, James has been in situations like this before.

Maybe not exactly like this, but he's had to carry enough to understand, you know, what his job is. But I don't think they, I don't think he can get that done at this point in the career against, like Boston legs and Boston defensive like, bodies that can be thrown at you and overall just flexibility defensively. They got a lot of versatile pieces out there with length and athleticism and I just don't know to James Hardin at this point is going to be the dude who does that, right?

Whether he's game and he's going to give it his best shot, I don't worry about that, but I don't think it it's enough. It's just interesting because Hardin isn't, it's funny, he purports this this notion that you know, because I was looking at the quotes, you know, in between

this series from him and he's like, you guys forgot that like, you know, I can win my game with anything. I can be that score or I can be that this person and I can do all these things and I have changed in the way that you guys haven't seen and I just don't believe that, Howard.

I don't believe that he has done that. Especially when you see these stories of him flying from Philly to Vegas on off games, I mean, on off days, right? And I don't expect him that guy to be able to be a leader for this team going forward. And I feel like this is the same old thing that we have been seen, right? Around the second round where these types of things happen, am I off on that, Howard? Should I believe that he is a changed person and a changed player and a change leader, if you will?

James Harden, like, his age and miles aside, everything else aside. his postseason record just is what it is. He's had a lot of, he's had some great moments, but he's had a lot more moments where he did not come through in critical games in the playoffs. And that isn't going away.

Now, winning this series, especially with a hobbled or absent Ambide, would force us to change our opinion of that part of it. I agree with Hardham when he says, we're not maybe crediting him enough for his adaptability at the stage of his career. He adapted really well during his very short time when the nets were a whole, right?

before things fall off a cliff there, there was that moment where it was like, holy moly. Like, these guys are just running dudes off the court. And before he gets hurt and everybody else gets hurt and they lose the bucks and all that, like there was a moment there where it looked like they were going to be really great and hardened to his credit was pretty much playing

set up man to Kyrie and Kevin Durant. It didn't last. Things go south there. He's in Philly. He's done a really nice job. I think of mesh in his game with Joelle Embed and of playing a different role now than he did during those like hyper-use

years in Houston where he's controlling every second of every possession and everything is ending with him either shooting or passing to somebody else who's shooting. So he does deserve credit for all that. But I do think at this stage of his career, he kind of needs to be that guy. He needs to be leaning on Joel Embed and Maxi, Tobias, whoever. Starting this series, presumably without Embeddd and trying to make this a hardened-centric offense at this stage of his career. And against, by the way, a Celtics team that might have the best arsenal of perimeter defenders in the NBA, right?

Start with their two stars who are both two-way players. So you've got Tatum and Brown. You got Brogden. You got Derek White. You got, oh, Marcus Smart. Yeah, that guy, the defensive player of the year a year ago. Is there any team that is better suited to contain a now perimeter dependent Sixer team than the Celtics? So, like, without Embed, I think they're toast.

I'm sorry. but like I just don't even see a way through this if he's not not only back, but damn near close to 100%. Like I don't know if 80% of Joellen B is enough. And so yeah, there's a lot riding on Hardin and almost unfairly so. By the way, doesn't Hardin still have like,

didn't he just flag a couple weeks ago that he's still dealing with Achilles, hamstring something? He's still got some little lingering thing. Roger, how much should we, there were some disappointing moments from the Celtics in the Atlanta series, how much should we hold that against them or how much was that a blip on the radar going forward?

Is that something we should even look at? Or should we, because as great as the Celtics are, they have had times where they just, you know, they keep their foot off the gas or they fall off or they fall off just a little bit. There's just little moments of that. How much should we hold that against them or how much should we just say, oh, you know, that was in the past.

We can trust this team. Well, I don't know how much you hold. hold it against them. It's got to be something you keep your eye on. I don't know that, I don't know that ultimately, you know, that's going to come back to bite them in the ass moving forward. The hope would be, you know, we got through a tougher first round series than it needed to be, and here's why. And we can't have that moving forward against more quality opponents or it's going to cost us, you know, a chance at another run to the finals. And so I'd like to think that, you know, their experience and, you know, Coach Masula's kind of first,

time around the block with that. I think it gets ironed out. And I think it's a lot easier to fall into whatever game that was, Game 5 Celtics at home, where they just completely look flat against the Hawks. It's easier to fall into that in your first round series than it is when you see the Sixers. Do you know what I mean? I think there's a more organic level of, hey, man, we got to get our shit together. Or we will lose. Similar to Warriors with the Kings in Game Six, how we were just talking that earlier in the show. That happens with with teams that feel that they are better than other teams and the and the and their history shows that. Yeah. So I mean, I, I don't think that you're going to get that out of the Celtics too much more, but it would be something to keep

an eye on because you can't, I mean, it happened, right? And so, you know, you want to make sure that that that's not something that's going to be a recurring theme for them. But I tend to think that they're going to be razor sharp. You know, I agree with Howard, dude. Like, if you're not going to have Joelle Embed at 90%. 90%. You're in trouble. Because, and not only offensively in what he means to you, but

I mean, with all of that prowess perimeter-wise defensively that we talked about, almost all of those dudes are really good out there offensively, too. And you take Joel's big ass out there in a pick and roll and he can't move. You know what I mean? There's a lot of stuff

that it's going to limit Philly if he's not at close to 100%. Let's go to the Western Conference matchup tonight, which is Sun's Nuggets game too. Now, me and Raja have talked about just how hard it is to win on the fly when you're having so many roster changes. Specifically, in the Sun's case where you can make the argument pre-trade deadline, they were going in another direction. and if they don't make this trade for Kevin Durant, that team looks totally different next season.

There's a lot of wholesale changes that could have happened, right, with new ownership and things like that. But I think in game one, you're seeing the ramifications of that because Monty Williams just does not have a bench. I honestly think Raja could get 10 minutes right now. No, he couldn't. Right now on that sun's bench.

I think he could hit a couple threes. I think he could be of service. How much of that, just the lack of continuity right now, how much of that is affecting the Sons? And will that be the nail in the coffin for them in this series?

Or will they figure out a way to, could they figure out a way to beat this Nuggets team that really just looked dominant in game one of that series, Howard? So the moment the Sons made the trade, and everybody immediately crowned them favorites in the West,

I said, listen, I think they're a favorite. I don't want to say they're the favorite. I want to see this actually come together. And the concerns I had in the moment were, do they have enough time for Kevin Durant to acclimate to them and for them to acclimate to him? We've seen that answer because he immediately got hurt

and he had eight regular season games and now plus, you know, a few playoff games. Is that enough? And that's one of those things you don't know until you actually get there, right? Like I threw that question at some coaches and scouts along the way over the last couple months of the season. And like, am I putting too much stock in the idea that they need to be together? Like, yeah, Kevin Durand, we have ultimate plug and play superstar, all this stuff. But isn't there something to be said for like, we admire what the Warriors can do in part because of the sixth sense that Draymond and Steph have with each other, that all of this muscle memory, all of these reps, all of these things have been together.

Good times, bad times, tight times, two seconds on the clock, half second left on the clock, whatever it may be. They've done all. And that has to matter. And if it matters in the plus for them, doesn't it matter to the detriment of a team that has not had any of that. time together. Has to matter, right? Coaches and scouts, everybody all nod, yes, absolutely. It may not come up. It may not actually bite them, but it absolutely could. So there was that. And the other part was, of course, the depth, the depths. Like they traded some really important players to get Kevin Durant. And what was left, even after shopping in the buyout market and

bringing in Terrence Ross and all these guys, like, it's just not that great. And we're seeing, like, Monty Williams, in a series against a depleted clipper team, that got extended farther than it probably should have. Monty Williams is like mixing, matching, searching. He does not know. It's not just whether Durant fit with the stars and whether their four best players could play together. You got to figure out your rotation,

and he never had any time to really establish that. So he's still experimenting and trying to figure out who he can rely on, if anybody, from that bench. And yes, you shorten your rotation in the playoffs. I got it. But even then, you still need a sixth, seventh, and maybe eighth guy you can rely on, and you still need to spell your guys.

Durant played some big minutes, like much longer than you would have wanted him to play. Like a 44-minute game and there's somewhere in that first round. You'd like to avoid that, if you could, with the guy with his age and injury history. So I think the things that were, that most concerned me about the sons.

It's not to say that I didn't think they could win at all, just that the things that most concerned me about them are the things that I think are kind of relevant right now. And the Nuggets, by the way, kind of the converse of that, the Nuggets have been together, this core's been together for a while. Like, they, injuries or no, Michael Porter, Jr.

and Jamal Murray missed some time. But like that group's been together, man. Like, they do know each other. They are in rhythm. They know what they have to do. And Jamal Murray is looking like himself again, which is, by the way, right on time. People talk about ACL, oh, you can come back from an ACL in 10 to 12 months. You can come back from it in 10 to 12 months.

But ask any, ask any player who's been through it and ask trainers and orthopedists who deal with these injuries, they'll tell you, you're not really yourself again until more like 18 to 24 months. That's when you were all the way back. You can play. You may even play at a high level, but you are not back to your pre-ACL tear peak until two years. And so Jamal Murray is right on schedule with what we're seeing right now. Roger, it was it's when I watched the game,

and to Howard's point, when I watch game one, the difference in just the play of Denver and just, knowing, oh, I can pass it to this person. And I can pass it to this person without even, like, looking. I know that they're going to be there versus the sons who are a team of, their offense devolves. Whenever they get into a crunch, their offense devolves into pass the ball,

either to Devin Booker or Kevin Durand to see what they do with it. And I can't help but think, and we've talked about this on the pod, you know, before. I can't help but think, man, it would have been at least help a lot more helpful if Kevin was just like, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to demand this trade and I'm going to make sure that this trade happens during training camp and have a full season with these guys. And maybe we will probably have a lot more continuity than we do right now. Am I wrong in thinking that, Rajah? Like how much would have a trade for Kevin preseason help with this continuity argument that we're having right now? at least, you know, we would, there would be a lot more sets put in.

Kevin would, Kevin would know a lot more piece to players to pick? Would that have made a difference, the timing of this trade and when it happened? I'd be like the butterfly effect, man. Like, who knows? Like, if that, yes, the answer is yes, really quickly, yes. It'd be huge for a lot of reasons. A lot of the ones that Howard just talked about. But it would also have given you time if you were the club to address some of the glaring deficiencies you have.

on the roster right now in a way that you didn't have time to do post-trade deadline. Like, you know, you're, you're hamstrung with buyout candidates and stuff like that, or guys that are just kind of sitting around. And while, yeah, I mean, there's a place, but those guys aren't, you know, they're so thin in terms of depth that you need real production out of those guys in a way that that's why they're sitting there. Like, they're not ready to do that for you anymore. Do you know what I mean?

Like, those are, hey, we give them a call. once every three games to fill in for something when someone's in foul trouble and they hold us down and we don't go into the red when they're on the court. That's not like, yo, dog,

we need you to get 11 to 15 tonight. Hey, we're going to need you to guard Jamal Murray, you know, and hold him down and then give us 15, all right? We need you to shoot 42% from three this series for us to win it.

Those guys aren't, that's not what you want. Hey, we need you to guard Yokitz for like 15 minutes while Aiden is out. Like, we need you to do this. So yes,

like it would have been dope for him to have a full. season. They could iron out the kinks. Monty would know his rotation. But I think you'd have had a much better chance of finding the support and cast around them, having watched for a while, to see exactly what you need, and then target it and go out and try to acquire it. And, you know, the depth is a real issue. For the sons to be, you know, in this series in a way that's real. I mean, because Denver is good. Like, you saw Kevin Durant get up there and, you know, they were like, were you surprised? Like, surprised by the Nuggets.

No. Like they're really good. Like there's a reason. They're really good. They're well-rounded. They're deep. They have a multi-time MVP. And the interesting part about them, I would have to imagine. I've never game planned for them defensively is they can be two different versions of essentially, you know, the same team. They can be the Nicola Yokic. Everything runs through him. And we're all flying around and there's this beautiful ball movement. how are we guarding that? And then they could be like, yo,

Jamal Murray is a monster with the ball in his hands. And he's cooking. And how do we guard that? And it's hard enough to put in one game plan defensively and execute that. But to essentially have to have two, you know what I mean? It's really difficult.

And I have to imagine, like, guys are pulling out their hair trying to figure out, yo, what version of them, you know, where are we getting? Like,

what are we doing? And it's a really cool, it's a really cool card to kind of have in your back pocket to have to have that right and we're not just talking about guys that can go get it a lot of teams have multiple guys that can go get it we're talking about when he goes to get it we look like a different team than when he goes to get it and that's difficult Howard with the nuggets what is their ceiling this season are they are you are you putting them in the finals discussion at this point right now could they do it can they figure it out because there's it's interesting because whenever we see the nuggets

throughout this season. They were the best team in the Western Conference. Yeah. But you could make the argument that this was the worst Western Conference regular season we've seen in years and a few decades, right? What is, who is the real nuggets? What's nuggets are we going to see? And how far can they take this?

It's funny because, like, this doesn't happen that often, guys, right? Like, normally the top team, the top two teams at least. in each conference in the regular season, everybody agrees, yeah, that team can win it all. That team's got a shot. Maybe one team's got a little bit better shot than the other. Whatever. We nitpick, but, like, it's very rare.

Like, the only other team that comes to mind immediately who fits this mold of what the nuggets were this season in terms of perception versus the record is that Atlanta Hawks team that won 60 the one year? Remember that the poor all-stars, everybody's an all-star. We don't have a star. Our star is that we're- Paul Millsap, Kyle Corver, all of that group, right?

Yeah, Jeff Teague. Is that the 14-15 Hawks? I feel like it was a 14-15 Hawks. Sorry, Robert Brown. We know that this hurts your Harle-Hard. All I know is that some team with LeBron on it smoked them. That's what I remember. And everybody knew that was coming.

Everybody saw that and knew like, oh, that's a cute little 60-win season by the Hawks. That was nice. You're not lasting. LeBron's going to crush you. And he did. I'm not saying the nuggets are that. but when I was asking people around the league down the stretch of the season, again, trying to sort through this weird-ass Western Conference where no team had an airtight case, if I just asked the open-ended question, like, who's coming out of the West, they would, some people named the Warriors, some people named the Clippers before Paul George went down. There were people who said, oh, it's the sons because of the talents.

You know, they'll figure it out. Nobody ever said, oh, the nuggets are the one coming out of the West. Or if they put them in the discussion or in their answer, it was just like they're among the teams that could. So, like, they are, I hate to say it because I hate getting to also respect, disrespect, all this BS. But, like, they're kind of like the least respected regular season champion that I've seen in a while. But that's how people felt about them. They, like, they weren't dismissing them. They're just not convinced.

And look, I think they've gotten stronger as they've gone here. And I think there was a really impressive, you know, game one against the Suns clearly. They can, you know, look, yes, they can win it. Like, they're in the second round. There's four teams left in the Western Conference. the Nuggets are up 1-0. I think they can beat the Sons. I think, you know, it's obviously we are prisoners of the moment.

Right now it looks like they're going to beat the Sons. That's too soon to say. But if they beat the Sons and they're now taking on the Warriors of the Lakers, could they beat either of those teams? I don't expect it, but I wouldn't rule it out. And if we get there, by the way, whether it's Nuggets Lakers or Nuggets Warriors, I'm going to have the same, like, default reaction,

which is I'm not betting against Steph and I'm not betting against LeBron. At the end of it, to me, it's going to come down to, I'm sorry, I apologize Nuggets. I love what you've done. You're a really fun team. You're great. New Yorkich is incredible. I'm just not, I'm not picking the nuggets over a team helmed by LeBron James or Steph Curry, if those guys are healthy when they get to the conference finals.

Roger Devils Advocate time. Give us a case for the nuggets. Disagree with us, please. You want me to disagree? First, can I agree, though? Because, I mean, it's, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I just felt everything he was saying there. Like if push comes to shove and it's the Nuggets versus either of those two teams,

and I will play devil's advocate in one second, but I want to be true to myself right now. I would say the same thing. I'd say, yo, I can't bet against Stefan Clay and Draymond, and I can't bet against LeBron and AD. I don't know. I'm sorry. Now, here's what I will say.

Denver has done this over the course of a season to the tune of the number one seed. Nicola Yokic is going to be a problem that not a lot of people have answers for. Stylistically, they have these kind of two different ways that they play that I just talked about that can kind of get hard to game plan for. And both of those presumably teams would be in a dog fight in round two, right?

At least that's what we're projecting. Like we said six or seven, a dog fight and they're both relatively old. So if we were to get to Denver with one of those two teams, that would be the case I'd make. It's like we're now in round three. We're a little deeper. We're younger.

And we've got these two styles of play that you're going to have to figure out what we look like from night to night. And that's the best case I could make for it. But, you know, I tend to agree. I'm going to just say again, man. Like that sucks, right? For Denver, like that sucks. Like we get all the way here.

We can do whatever we're number one seed. We've been doing this over the course of years. And here we sit and no one will pick us over either LeBron or staff. Damn it. It's like those Pacer teams that couldn't get past LeBron, right? Not. Yep. It's like, you know, really good team.

We respect the hell out of what you've done. Every team down the line in the Eastern Conference over that last 15-year stretch just couldn't get past LeBron. It didn't matter. It was getting to the point where we were just like convincing ourselves. And in hindsight, I feel like it was just, because we were just convincing ourselves, yeah, man,

Derek Rose's MVP, yeah, man, this Bull's team can beat him. Yeah, this Raptor's team can beat them. Yeah, this team right, this Pacer's team can beat him. That's the LeBron beater. And every time down the line,

LeBron be like, ah, nope, excuse me, I'm going to the finals. You know, that Atlanta team, real quick, I'll go back to that Atlanta team.

You referenced. Weren't you there? Weren't you in the front office that year? I was just going to say, like, watched them from afar. And it was so different. Like, I can't even explain to you how different it is being not just not on the floor, but not part of the coaching staff and, and really the pulse of the team, like really the heartbeat of the team is in the locker room, whether you're a player or you're a

coaching staff member, someone that's in there. And we're kind of removed up in the offices. So you don't get like, you get a pulse, but it's harder to gauge what's going on at times, right? And so that Atlanta team, you know, was, was they played well all season long. and I was so blown away by the utter, I don't want to say disrespect that we had for them. But the general attitude of the people on that team was like not a fucking chance. Like we were going to roll them. And I, you know,

I had never been in a series like that where a team, I just hadn't been in one as a player where a team had been that good through the regular season. And when we went to play them, like we had that like, yeah, this is fucking cake. And that's the way the whole,

the whole team. Like I remember being out at like East Lake golf course in Atlanta playing like 17 or whatever that is, a big part three. And I look up and J.R. Smith's up there, you know, ahead of me playing. And I'm the way, you know, we just, we were there just for a good time.

And they rolled them in a way that I had never seen before. Like just complete dismissal of a team. And I mean, ultimately they just dismantled them like that too. But it was kind of interesting to watch. There was so much disrespect on that series. Remembered at the end? I think,

I think their calves, swept them. I think, Raj, I think they swept them. I'm pretty sure they swept him. But I remember I think it was either game three or game four. Cameron Love was like, hey, guys, hurry up with this media session. I got to go watch, I got to go watch Game of Thrones. Like, let's get this going.

Let's get this shit going. Let's get on the fucking plane. I got to go find it's game of throats. Let's get the fuck out of here. In fairness, by the way, in fairness to the nuggets as we make this kind of broad analogy, like Yokic is better than anybody that Hawks team had. Like, they didn't have a true superstar right.

Like Al Horford was probably their best player. For sure. For you know, Horford, Millsap, Teague, Corvert. Like, it was a really nice ensemble. But in this league, ensembles only get you so far most of the time. You need the dude. And Nuggets got the dude at least. And Jamal Murray's really, really good.

So, like, in fairness, they're not that Hawks team, but the disconnect feels the same. I was watching, I think it was this show that I see on YouTube every once in a while. Gills Arena with the homie Josiah, Osaya. Osaya Johnson and Gilbert Arenas. And there was this clip that I recently saw, and they were talking about how Gilbert Arinas was talking about how solid teams don't

win championships. Doesn't matter like that you could be a really great, great team. And I'm not talking about the Nuggets necessarily being a solid team. I think they're better than solid. But when you see team, it goes to your point of Howard, when you see teams that are ensemble cast

of really, really good players, those don't win out. They don't. They don't do it. It doesn't happen. You need... What the hell is going... Was that you, Rob? Was that you wrong?

Sorry. Keep that shit in. But no. But when you see that, right? Like, when you see multiple... When you see these things, it shows that in this league, you need generational talent

to win a title. And I think LeBron and Steph's generational talent at this point, just beat out Yolk it's generational talent. That's just where we are right now. Yeah, the 04 pistons are the lone exception, right? And that was a long time ago now.

Yeah, and that was also extenuating circumstances on that one. It was. I wasn't going to go down that road, but yes, also extenuating circumstances. I could do a three-hour fucking TED talk on that, but yeah. I would just say this, though. Let me be devil's advocate again. If we get to that point where the 38-year-old and the 35 or 34-year-old have been through 14 to 13 games,

you know, Yo Kitchen then might have a case for being the better superstar at that point, right? Because we're just talking about you know, not an overall body of work as a career. We're talking about these six to seven games. Who's better in these?

That's a fair point. That was Howard Beck and Roger Bell and Logan Murdoch on the Monday edition of real ones. It's good to be here with you, Howard. It's good to be here with you though, bro. It's just great to see you, Roger. I'm just happy Roger showed up

and was like, he was okay to talk to me. Like I wondered for a while. Like if every time I go around with, Roger just happens to be gone. Roger was duck into smoke. Maybe it's personal. Maybe it was personal.

I don't know. Full disclosure. I forgot you were on this morning. There it is. There it is. All my insecurities come flooding back. At Howard back on Twitter, you can find my writings at the moment at GQ.com.

I'm doing a bunch of stuff on the last. on podcast network. All my writing is also on my authorie page. That's like author with a Y on the end. So authory.com back slash Howard Beck. All my stuff that I've written for the last like 20 years or so. If you just want to like, you know, spend a day just like, you know,

sifting through the Howard Beck archives. I don't know why anybody would want to do that. But you could. It's all there. All right, man. That was Howard motherfucking Bizzack. We will talk to you guys on Thursday. Holla.

Tap in all the shits. Bye.