The Ringer NBA Show - Howard Beck on the Utah Jazz’s Hot Start, and What Giannis and Shaq Have in Common | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Logan and Raja are joined by prolific Sports Illustrated writer Howard Beck to reminisce on the era of coach trash talk in the early to late 2000s (2:00). Along the way, they discuss the reasons the Utah Jazz are exceeding expectations this season and what the hot start means for their draft odds (13:00). Later, the guys unpack the underwhelming early-season records of the Warriors and Clippers (30:00). Finally, they talk about the undefeated Milwaukee Bucks and Giannis as a generational talent (41:00). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Howard Beck Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Connor. Wait a minute, you're not Chris Vernon. No, Kevin, sadly, I'm not as cherubic or as raspy as Verno, but it is I, Jay Kyle, man. And folks, basketball has been and continues to be so very good. That's exactly why Kyle and I are hosting a brand new basketball show on a brand new podcast feed, the ringers NBA draft show. We're going to have you covered every week as we go in-depth and deep dive in hopes of answering an ever-important question in the NBA. Who's got next?

Whether it's an international phenom like Victor Winbenyama or the G-League Scoot Henderson. Or stars from Overtime Elite like A. Men Thompson, as well as a full-blown swarm of talented prospects from the promising 2023 NBA draft class. For sure, Kyle. And we're also going to get into players from the college ranks because this is a loaded class. for us to discuss prospects rising and falling, and we're going to revisit and redraft recent draft classes and get into how the league's evolution could help inform what's valuable in a prospect of the future.

This is a podcast for a fan of every team, whether you're losing and have high draft lottery odds or you're looking for sleepers later in the draft. We're going to be covering everything in the months that come, so please make sure you follow and subscribe to the Ringer NBA Draft Show. And hit us with those five-star ratings. What's popping? Logan Murdoch, Roger Bell.

Roger, we have a special guest on the pod. He's been around a long time. He is now at Sports Illustrated. We have Howard. I want to curse and say Howard motherfucking Beck. So we got Howard motherfucking Beck in the house. How you doing? Howard? How are you doing? What's going on?

I mean, if you want to say it, then you just say it. You said it. So, thank you for that amazing introduction, Logan. Appreciate you. Yeah, so eloquent, bro. You just, you know. Man. We're writers, Roger. We're We know how to use the language in a very sophisticated and efficient and impactful way. That's what we do.

Clearly. Fucking right. Howard, do you have any, you've been around the block a few times. Do you remember the first time you covered Raja and was he a good person or was he a dick to you? How was this? What was the word of the lives? How was he when you covered him way back in? Right out the gate.

Look at that. Coming out hot. No, you know what I remember actually? Because obviously, you know, I covered the Lakers for the seven years during the Shack Coby era. So I think the first time Raja was on my radar was the first time he was on, I think, most of the NBA's radar was with that Sixer team. And so Lakers Sixers, Raja, you know, effing with Kobe, even in that series. Setting the stage, little did we know setting the stage for shit that would happen years and many teams later. A few teams later for Raja anyway.

Many iterations of the Lakers later for Kobe. And I was there, Raja. So the day, so you and Kobe get into that whole thing. Yep. I was working for the New York Times at the time. So I would just parachute into playoff series. And I happened to parachute into that Lakers Sun series in time for the press conference that Kobe had with us at their practice facility. Nelson Gono where he said, who's this kid?

I don't know this kid, whatever. And I'm sitting there back my mind like, dude, you were like wrestling with him for like, you know, how many five games in the finals a couple of years ago. I clearly remember this. And I was in my head. I'm laughing. And I remember talking to like Mark Stein afterward or whatever. We're, we thought it was hilarious that Kobe's doing this whole, I don't know this guy, whatever. It was, it was silly. That was actually in the midst of a very real, like it was really, it was very real for me, right? But you had to appreciate that. Right. I mean, even, even I could sit back with my family at the time,

who all, everyone was just gassed. It was on site if we saw him in person. Even if we could sit back and say, that's pretty fucking funny, man. I remember there was a T&T sizzle reel of like you guys at the, like it was, it was the day after it happened or a day after media for both of you guys, you and Cove. And it was, you had some great quotes in there too. You had some great close in there too. I try. You were like, you were like Greg Willard just said, just totally disrespect to me or something. And like, or like, and you went back at Phil.

Like you were not scared as a guy that was like, you were like, fuck it. I don't care that Phil Jackson's over there talking shit. I don't care that Kobe's talking shit. up here. You know what was funny about that? I don't know, I mean, maybe you're a genius, Logan. Maybe you just knew that this is where we were going. I didn't anticipate this. I thought he was going to go to the 01 finals, but here we are. I didn't anticipate this, but what I haven't said ever on record about that moment in time with Kobe was how much Phil Jackson's mouth played into like the boiling point that I reached. He was great. Most coaches that I,

I played against didn't have a lot to say to you. They coached the game. Now, obviously, they all get hot. They're competitors. They might yell something at a ref. And if you're in the way, like, you catch the shrapnel from that or whatever. But Phil was talking to me, like trying to get in my head, which he did. I mean, and, you know, so that was that particular night, I had Kobe and Kobe didn't talk a lot.

So we weren't talking. But Phil was running his mouth. And then Kobe and I were doing the physical. Oh, yeah, during the game. Yeah. How messy was Phil Jackson Howard? Like, how messy was he like to get it? Like, because he was one of the few coaches that I've seen that actually would talk shit to the other team's players during the game.

What would, what was, what were the mind games he was trying to play with an opponent like that? But he also talked shit on the off days. Like, part of the fun of covering Phil and covering that era, coaches don't talk shit at all anymore, hardly ever. It's kind of, it's kind of unfortunate. It's so whack. They're all very, they're so diplomatically. They're all, they're all like students of the game now. They all came from the damn film room, right?

There's no Phil Jackson's or Jeff Van Gundy's or Pat Rice, whatever, who are just going to get out there and just like fucking talk shit. And just like, and, you know, do all the referee politicking on the off days, take little shots at the opposing coach or the seventh man or something just to mix it up. Like that was fun. That was part of the fun of the era. Like I covered like, oh, those Lakers King series, Phil, like tweaking Rick Adelman, like that was just part of his stick.

He had like two of the coaches that I've covered that I really enjoyed covering and liked them as people and had, you know, a good rapport with them off the court, right? Phil Jackson and Mike Dan Tony. Obviously, Mike, who Raja knows well. Yeah. Those dudes hated each other. And I liked both. I liked both these guys. And I covered Mike later than Phil.

But so like when Mike, Mike fucking hated Phil. And these are two guys that I. feel like having covered each of them for long periods of time that I also learned the most from as a reporter. And when I talk about to the extent that I as a non-player have an aesthetic or a philosophy about how I think the game should be played or what I enjoy watching or the just the way that teamwork works, right, the involving everybody, whether it's Phil's Triangle or Mike Dantonies saying the ball finds energy, these are things that I've kind of internalized. So I've learned a lot and internalized a lot from

both these guys, but they could not be more different, and those dudes hated each other. So that was always interesting. That was the era of, I mean, I don't know what percentage of the coaches in the league at that point were former players, but you're right, you're right. There's something, while the guy that comes out of the film room and from a managerial side making his way towards coaching, like, I think that's great and they do a great job, and they're super bright and intelligent. They've learned the shit out of the game and it's great, but you do lack, you miss the shit talking, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Bill, Phil would talk to you like he was playing.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, he was like, there's this, suit it up. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, during that era, and I think for most of the, the, the NBA's, uh, uh, existence up until this modern era, the coach was a presence in and of himself. The coach, the coach was a presence in and of himself. the coach was a presence. He had his own ego, his own, we wouldn't call it brand back then, but a persona. And his voice mattered, and he had some sway. And he had the ability to, like, get in there and mix it up just as the players would verbally. And the guys today, like, there is.

It's a different archetype of coach. It's a different mold. And it's not to say it's, you know, bad or anything. And it's not like they're all boring. but from a media standpoint, there is less of it that mixing it up, right? You know who else would really,

but he was in his own different, it was in his own way, not as many words as Phil, but certainly pointed words and he was a figure, like Jerry Sloan. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

When his big guys would be over there with them big old hands on that sideline and he, you know, I didn't always play for the jazz, so there'd be times, you know, he'd be like, shit, man. That's a bear over there, man. You don't want to mess with him.

But how much did Howard talk? Oh, go ahead, Howard. No, can I, let me interrupt for just a second because before I forget this. Roger, what did Phil say to you? Because, like, I know what he would say on off days to us about teams and players, but like we weren't often,

sometimes we were sitting close enough, but I, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily be privy to what he's actually saying during the game. Do you remember anything he said? Yeah, he would tell me that night, I don't remember verbatim, but the gist of it was, you know, if I'd be talking to the refs,

to interject and be like, you fucking, you deserved it. Like, you deserve that. You're, you're, you know, he, he would just be right on time. It was, it was, you deserved it a lot. Can you plan without foul? And it's stuff like that, man. Just, he knew I was the underdog. Kobe was the marquee.

I got a, I got a complex about it to some degree. And he just worked that shit, man. A timely little jabs over and over. And the accumulation of the, was a time where, did you jack? What was a time where you and Phil had like a verbal exchange? where you like went back at him like fuck you phil oh no that night that night when it went down with coby i was i was all over to play so i had told him to sit the fuck down shut the fuck up like i had been i had been exchanging but at that point again if i've gotten to that point as a

player he's already won you know like i mean once once i've said more to you than the other man sit to fuck down like if i've come back and talk to you again you know you got me so how did how did uh because howard just talked about how uh the relationship with mike dantonian feel From your vantage point, how did Mike Dantonian take on those field? I remember there was one time, I think it was Christmas, 06. I remember there was one time where Phil looked at Dantonia and was like, what? You sit the fuck down and went like this to him. I remember that got caught on television, Roger.

So I can only imagine what it was like when Dan Tony goes up against Phil. What was that like from your vantage point in Phoenix? Well, interestingly, like I was so wrapped up in it that I wasn't looking at it through the coach's lens. So I don't, I don't really remember how Mike felt about, about, about Phil. Like, he never really spoke about it. I just know that as a team, and this started with Mike, we felt some kind of way about the way the Lakers and other teams felt about our style. Like, we could, we were cool to watch, but it couldn't win anything, right? So, you know, we, we felt pretty disrespected in that regard. And that was Mike's baby. So I know Mike wore that, you know, heavily.

And then, you know, there was always a chippiness there with the Lakers and Phil. And Mike, what people don't know about Mike, because he's really chill and his style is kind of laid back. It's what endears him to do a lot of people. He is as fiery a coach as there is out there. Like, Mike could get after it. And, you know, we played like that. That's why those battles were, those series were just good, because everybody hated each other for the most part. I thought Dan Tony and all the coaches that I've covered or even just observed over the last couple of decades, all of them can get fired up at times, Raja.

But like the gap between on-court persona and off-court, I think was bigger with Mike Dan Tony than anybody else I've ever seen. Nicest guy in the world all laid back. He's all Southern West Virginia drawl. Everybody's good, whatever we good, whatever. He's all friendly. And then he's like a freaking lunatic

during games with the refs and with what? But it's not that all coaches don't get wrapped up in the game and get really intense at times, but the distance between off court, no game going on Mike Dantone and midst of game and shit's not going well, Mike Dantone. Like, total Jekyll and Hyde, like to the extreme. That's a great call, though. I just feel like the Phoenix Sons of that era from like 04 to like 09 was a big fuck around and find out energy, right?

Like there was a sense that, because we talked about this with Nash last week about how he's just, he's chill until you like set him off. Like he's like that. Raj's like that. Steve Kerr is like that. Like all of those guys were, you guys were like real chill and vibe. Who's other guy? Alvin Gentry's also like that where he's a totally different persona off the court that he is on the court. What is about that Phoenix Sun's team?

you guys are just like, a yo, y'all, y'all think it's sweet, but fuck around and find out. You got a lot of dudes like that because you left out, like pieces that you wouldn't necessarily think about. Like Boris too,

maybe? But Boris never really got into the fuck around and find out. Like, he played and he was fantastic, but that was never really his energy. But Kat's like Kurt Thomas. Tim Thomas.

Well, yeah, but Kurt was there. Kurt was super chill, like good to kick it with. But he'd get in that mode on you quick. Tim was like that. We had Brian Grant my first year there, the Lion Brian. Like, super chill. But we don't let that flip switch because it was on and pops.

We had a lot of people that were like that. But biggest thing for us, I think, was just, again, so many people. And I mean, it played itself out that we didn't really win anything. But it was us against the world in that people really didn't think what we were doing was going to win. It beat a lot of people. But yeah, it fell short ultimately. Let's transition a little bit to some current stuff. I do want to talk about the Utah Jazz right now,

who are defying everyone's expectations. They're eight and three. They beat the Clippers last night. Like, I don't, but I want to talk about something bigger. I think the Utah Jazz are faced of this, of just kind of how you run a team based on the circumstances that you have, right? Like, the Utah Jazz are in a position where they traded away their guys, Donovan Mitchell.

They get Lori Market and some pieces back. And they're expected to tank. You have an all-world player in France, Wembe, who is right there for the taking. And you have this culture of teams just, you know, we might tank. We might go get a guy. But they're doing quite the opposite. Roger, what have you seen from this team? And how does that show us about how we should run a team during, you know, this era of basketball?

There are a few things. Number one, I've always maintained that in the NBA, especially early in the NBA, if you can go out there and be committed to playing harder than your opponents for longer stretches of time, you're going to have a chance to be in ball games, provided you have some talent. Like if you're just talent less, I mean, there's only so much you could do with that. But if you're just committed to playing hard, you know, having energy and, you know, sharing the ball in a way that the ball does find the energy, you know, like Mike talks about. I think you're going to put yourself in a nice position. Salt Lake City, and I talked about this a few pods ago and the jazz franchise, I was there during one of those years. I was there right after Carl Malone left, Stockton retired, we weren't supposed to do anything. And it just wasn't in the city, the town, the franchise's DNA to not be competitive. Like on paper, we weren't supposed to be

anything. But it just, you kind of teams take on the identity of their coach and of their franchise and to some degree of that city. And so that's the way we went out and approached it. So I think they're kind of uniquely set up as a franchise and a town to be out there overachieving, right, and doing things that you wouldn't think they do. And then from an X's and O's, like, you know how much I love offensive and defensive efficiency, Logan. You know, we jest, right? It's a joke. But I'll take it a step further. It's not just that their top 10 in both of those. They make, I think their second most in the league in terms of three is made per game. and they defend the shit out of a three-point line.

Yeah. So if you put those things together, right? Like, you're just, you're plus my, you're up. You're winning. You defend the shit out of it. You give up like second least or third least in the league, and you make the second most, like you're winning. So there are a lot of things that go into it.

Howard, when you think about, because I want to get a historical perspective from you, Howard, when you talk about just teams that, you know, have tried to tank, you know, the Celtics for Tim Duncan is a great example. right, or just any, or the Cleveland Cavaliers to get LeBron James. What is the best course of action historically when you do this? Is it we're going to, we're going to tank and try our best to get this generational talent because we're of a certain, we're in a certain market, or we're going to make the institution make us the best in the long term.

What's the best long-term play for teams, historically speaking? How should teams go about this? I think there is no should only because even, there was a like a 30-year stretch or something where the team with the worst record got the top pick like two times or three times in 25, 30 years or something. I can't remember what the exact stat was. But for the longest time, we had to remind everybody, we, the media, every time lottery was coming along.

And it's like, and remember, aside from these three teams, nobody ever, you can't engineer it. You can't engineer it. So what the Sixers, the pull point of the process was not that there's some full proof aspect of it, but that it's not foolproof. It was the opposite. What the Sixers did, what the process was, we need as many bites of the apples as we can, because, especially with the former lottery odds, you can have the worst record, but you're probably going to end up with the second or third pick. And if it's a one-player draft, well, then, okay, I guess we need to be in the next year and the next year and the next year, too. So what they were doing was giving themselves as many bites at

the apple as they could to get a franchise-changing player. And they actually got, in context, too. Now, Ben Simmons, we know what's happened with Ben Simmons, but Joelle M. B. has been everything that you could want if you were deciding to do a tear down and a tank job. So to that extent, it worked. I will always say it worked. If the idea is to get franchise-defining players, they got two of them and could have had more, if not for Markle Fultz. Jason Tatum sitting right there. Never mind. You know, mistakes were made. So there's that aspect of it. To actually do this quote-unquote right, as you asked Logan, you have to be committed for multiple years. And now with the rejiggered lottery odds, where you only have, instead of a 25% chances of the team with the worst record, first, second and third, I'll have like a 14% chance.

Well, you can't guarantee yourself anything. So, and that's the whole point, right? That was the point of this was to try to discourage tanking. It still happens. But what the jazz really remind me of, Logan, and this goes to your question, if you're going to do this, you better be all in because the 2013-14 Phoenix Suns

were supposed to be a tanking team. I can't remember who they jettisoned to the off-season, but they were getting rid of guys and everything was about, oh, they're tanking this season. They won 48 games. I think Hornacek ends up winning coach of the year. Isaiah Thomas. That was Isaiah Thomas team with Eric Blenzo.

And they had Gorin-Drogic? Was that those were those three guys that were the three guards? I just pulled it up. Actually, I think this might have been, they must have already gotten rid of Isaiah because he's not on this roster. But Drogich and Bledsoe both still are. But here's the roster that won 48 games and just missed the playoffs because you needed 49 to be the eighth seed last that season, which is insane. But this is the roster. Draggich, very good player. Eric Bledso, pretty good player. P.J. Tucker, early in his, not early in his career, but early in the PJ Tucker is a, oh, actually valuable player part of his career. Gerald Green, Channing Frye, Markeith Morris, Miles Plumley, Marcus Morris, Leandro Barbosa. So if you looked at this roster at a glance,

you'd be like, oh, yeah, I see what they were trying to do. But that team won 48 games. Why? Because of chemistry. Something that we can't define, something that we can't plan for, something that we can't predict, but something that I'm sure Raja will attest,

matters a hell of a lot more than anybody wants to say, even in an analytics era, when we can try to quantify everything. We can't quantify guys liking, enjoying play. playing with each other. And also, by the way, oh, personal pride, players still want to win, coaches will still want to win. A franchise, an organization can want to tank. But coaches and players have their own ideas about, like, well, shit, I got another contract to play for. I got personal pride and I got, you know, family back home who might be saying, like, what are you guys doing?

I'm not, I'm not tanking. So that's what the jazz are right now. And the one week went by, whatever that record was before I had a scout texted me immediately saying, you know, 2013-14 Phoenix Suns, like immediately that was the thought. And that's what it's looking like. This is a team that a bunch of guys who had some potential, there may not be an all-star on this roster. Laurie is the only closest thing you have on that.

And he's not going to be, right? And I don't know how far he takes this. But you have a bunch of guys who are pretty good. So to the point of I'll stop rambling after this, how do you do this right? Make sure that you don't have too many players who actually are pretty good and are motivated to do something. Like, sex can still have something to prove. Markinen has something to prove.

You got former lottery picks of recent lotteries who have something to prove, and they're trying. They're trying too much for the good of the franchise. That's it. Like, that's it in a nutshell, man. Like, you can't have, you can't have motivated players. You can't. Like, you got to find dudes that are, like, secure in their deals that are just notorious for laying down in the middle of their deals. You do.

Or like bad people. You put a group of like good people that are motivated with a little bit of talent in the mix. And that's, I think, you know, how you talked about the chemistry, I use the word sharing. Typically teams that have good chemistry share the shit out of the ball and vice versa. I don't know what comes first, but they're synonymous, right? Like they work together. They share the shit out of the ball and then they got good chemistry or they got great chemistry. So they share the shit out of the ball.

But you can win a lot of games. You can win a lot of NBA games. The amount of games that teams come out in the NBA, good teams. A sleep, they're penciled in across the schedule. A team like that pops up on you, and you're a really good team, and you're chilling on the fifth night of an eight-game road trip, and you got in late, and you got a little jet lag, and now you see the jazz with fresh legs.

They're hungry. They're playing together. They're beating you to every loose ball. You're going to mess around and get beat. I was just talking to a coach from a, you know, a team not expected to make the playoffs this season. And they were like, yo, man, we can win 10 games just diving for loose balls. You know, like that's literally how we can win. We can just out hustling other teams.

And that's what you get when you have a team like that, like the Jazz, who are so in sync and want to play for each other. That's all we were going to say, Howard? No, just that you almost need somebody who they're playing for something, but what they're really playing for is just, themselves, right? Like, you need, like, somebody should be, I don't mean to be smirch, the guy, because he's a good player, but like, somebody should be whispering to Colin Sexton, like, you know, you probably should be taking 20 shots a game on a team like this, right? Like, there's no talent here. Like, you know, you got to, listen, man, you know, you're coming up on the end of that, you know, you need to get your next contract. Like, you almost need to, like,

sow the seeds of selfish play and discord, because that's how you're going to sync them, right? You're not going to sync them by just going out, by saying, hey, guys, just go out and do your thing. So it raises this question. If you're the jazz right now, and here are you are sitting with like, I don't know, the fourth best record in the NBA right now, Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Phoenix, the only teams are the better record than the Utah Jazz. You're eight and three. And you know the front office did not intend for this. They can say that. None of us will believe them. Here's the question for the franchise. Are you better off with this fun, plucky, overachieving team, this really nice story. And look, it just shows how, you know,

if guys just play hard and blah, da, da, or do you want Victor freaking Wemble? Or do you want Victor Freakin' Banyama or maybe Scoot Henderson. Because that's what's going to happen. You screw around and overachieve this season. It's a nice one-year story and your fans will be happy for the moment and everybody can say, see, you all were wrong about the tanking and this and that. Fine. Where are you a year from now, two years from now, three years from now?

And that's what the front office and ownership has to think, have to think about is what's best for us for the next five to ten years. And the answer to that is blatantly obvious. And so it leads to this. If this is all sustainable, and I'm not sure how much of it's sustainable, and I don't, you know, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But if you think it might be, you have to start pulling the plug. Now. Yeah.

Like, Lowry Market has never been more valuable. You should be trading him now. And he's basically like to the extent that they have a number one option and they don't. But he's your number one guy right now. Like to trade him now, one, you'll get something good for him to. help the rebuild. And two, you can stave off this unfortunate overachieving. Jesus. That's what an incredible position to be in. And you're, you are absolutely right now. Because once you're 11 games in now, once you get 25 games in, and if you've sustained it through 25,

it looks terrible. So just go ahead and start doing, tinkering around the edges. When you pick up the phone and you're calling a team, what are you asking them? I just need picks. Like, what are you saying? What do you want right now for Lori Marketing or Colin sex and whoever to tear this shit down. What are you calling around? What is it like December? Whatever next month is when they can actually feel trade offers. That's another thing that's against them because the guys that they would want to trade

have been traded to them. But what are you, who are you calling? What are you saying, Roger? What do you need on a trade? I mean, yeah, I mean, picks are great. You could give me back. I mean, I don't know what that would look like, Logan. You could give me back some stuff.

If it's too good, I don't want it. but yeah, definitely picks. I take some some young pieces that aren't proven yet that I don't know or ready to hop in there.

Logan Murdox right there at the end of the bitch, I'll take him. Just get him. I'll get him on. I mean, at that point, if that's what you're doing, you're trying to secure,

you know, you're trying to secure the lowest seed possible. So you're not going to try to take back too much. I wouldn't be afraid of taking really young stuff, though, that hadn't proven anything

that might wind up pairing well with one of those high pigs. What would you do? Who are you letting go, Howard? Who are you... GM Howard, what's going on? The tough part of this, Logan, is they already have young players. It just so happens that those young players are playing pretty well.

So, like, are you going to trade for, like, 13-year-olds now? Like, I don't... You want... If you're trading for picks, you actually almost are trading for, like, what, 15-year-olds? Picks are great. They already have a boatload. from the two deals that they made for Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. We've seen with the Thunder, like,

there's a limit to how many picks you can stockpile and have it still be valuable, because if you can't figure out a way to turn them around and repackage them in a somewhat timely manner, eventually you have to use them. You're not going to keep them all. But yeah, probably that. Because you don't want the talent coming back.

The other route you could go, because if the talent coming back is too good, you're still stuck in the same position. you know, could you trade them to the Knicks so they can dump Julius Randall? Like I've, you know, certainly heard some some rumblings about, you know, the NICS wanting to unload Randall. Randall, we've already seen as a track record of if he's not happy, can submarine your team pretty quickly. So I don't know, something like that. But you're going to want picks too, right?

You're not doing it just for Randall. You're doing it for the Knicks have a surplus of picks. I don't know if the Knicks would value market it. I don't know if they want them. I'm just, you know, spitball in here. but they have picks, right? So you're going to probably do it for either a player in picks, a number of younger players.

But the point is you do need to make yourself worse and maximize the asset of Lowry Marketing. I don't know, like I haven't played with the trade machine on this one, but there's a deal there's somewhere. I'd be more shocked if they didn't trade him than if they did. Since we're in the Western Commerce, before we go to break, I do, it's, the Western conference is a bit wonky.

Clippers are an eight seed right now. We did not think that was going to happen. You know, Kauai is hurt at this point. If I were to tell you, the, if I, if I ask you, the Clippers, the Warriors, and let's go with the, let's go with the, I'll go with the Mavericks instead of the sixth seat. Of those teams, which one, if you had to go now,

just take a guess. What's the team that misses the playoffs? I'll go with, I'll go with, I'll go with Roger first. And I'll go with Howard. What's the team that you think like has the greatest chance of missing the playoffs? Let's get messy.

Really early on. That is messy, man. That's a no win. I mean, if you told me one of those teams was going to have to miss the playoffs, I'd probably pick the clippers. I just,

I mean, the Golden State, I think they're too solid. They're too good. I think they figure it out. And it's a no win pick, right? Logan,

like I, Dallas, I think I trust Luca and company more than I trust if Kauai is going to be available and what that looks like. I don't know. You've missed eight games now. I don't know.

I tend to think all of them are going to get in. But if you made me pick when I picked the Clippers for no other reason, then I trust Golden State, the coaches, the health of their players, and Dallas, like Luka, more than I trust that Kauai situation. What do you think, Howard? I'm going to try to answer this in a way where I can inflame as many fan bases as possible. Let's get it. Well, because whoever you say is not making the playoffs, you're a hater toward that team.

Correct. That's how this works. That's what Logan does. That's why he picked the Clippers because he didn't want to – because Raza didn't want to – Do the Clippers already hate you, Raja? Is that the thing? Clippers do. I haven't had a beef with Clipper Nation.

I guess I do now. Thanks, Logan. So if you'd ask me the question before this season started and you said, I have seen the future, one of these three teams, Clippers, Warriors, Mavs does not make the playoffs. I would have picked the Mavericks because the Warriors are the defending champs and the Clippers had a presumably healthy, presumably doing a lot of work these days, Paul George and Kauai Leonard. And I would have thought, and look, we were all talking about the Clippers as title contenders

or even title favorites. And the Mavericks having lost Brunson, having not really replaced him, having so dependent on Luca, one wrong, ankle turn and you're toast, right? So that would have been the answer then. But today, I mean, there are days where it looks like the Warriors just might be broken. And I don't think I don't, I don't believe that. The Warriors, as long as Steph Curry is there and still playing the way he is, the Warriors will be, I still believe they'll be fine. I'm not writing off the Warriors at three and seven. And the Mavericks, yeah, like, you know, Luke is a freaking MVP candidate. But

the clippers, despite all their depth, despite all their talent, despite that was supposed to be a phenomenal dynamic duo that has not ever been able to stay healthy long enough to do it. Like, when Kauai Leonard's missed this many games this early in the season with the usual fricking shroud of mystery and what the hell's going on, like how many times? Like, this is the story of Kauai Leonard's career. He's either a finals MVP or there's some weird shit happening with regard to his health that will never actually understand the full scope of because there's so much misdirection or lack of information, just this shroud of mystery around it. And this is where we are again and where the clippers

are. We have no idea what's going on. And that makes me worry, especially considering that the guy had a full year and a half to get back and was supposedly 100% healthy on day one, load management or no load management. This is not that. This is something else strange. and there are less than the sum of their parts team right now. It's interesting because, I mean, Howard, you were in Vegas in 2019 when the Kauai news dropped, right? When the Kauai, when it was, were you, were you in Vegas? I was in a residence in somewhere in the middle of Connecticut for random reasons having to do with dropping my daughter off at camp. That's a better reason. It's fine. It's fine. But in Vegas, in 2019, we all thought,

It was when Kauai chose the Clippers and then that massive trade happened to get Paul George into L.A. At that point, Paul George and Kauai were on the Clippers. And that was also when Anthony Davis joined the Lakers. We all thought this is going to be a new era of Los Angeles basketball.

It has not happened. I mean, you know, you can make the argument, well, Lakers won a title, yes, but it was during a global pandemic. And, you know, it's... Are you asterisking the championship? I'm not asterisked. seeing it. I'm not asterisking it. What I'm doing

is all I think is LA, in my opinion, doesn't have the same connection with the 2020 Lakers as they would otherwise. It's because they didn't see them. Not that it has anything to do with how the, how how would what happened, because they didn't see it happen, but in

person. But my question is, and I guess I'll start with, with Raja, how are we going to look back on this run for both teams of Lakers and Clippers over these last few years, right? Because the Kauai thing didn't happen for the Clippers and now we just talked about what's going on in Los Angeles.

How do we think we look back on this? I think it's going to, when looking back, be a miss for both franchises. I think they would have missed. They would say they had a window, a clear window with talent that should have delivered, you know, whatever X, Y, and Z would be per franchise. The Lakers obviously would have expected more, I think, just as a franchise and the Clippers did. But I think both when you look back are going to be,

saying they missed an opportunity. And the only reason I say that for the Lakers, because I know they won one, because with those two talents, ADN Prime and LeBron towards the end of it, like you would have expected more than one, I think. Everyone's happy to get one,

but I think as a Laker franchise, you would have expected more than one. And I don't see either one of them getting one. I mean, the Clippers has just been a mess. And I have no faith in Kauai when he comes back. I love Kauai,

but I don't see. don't think that you take that much time off. You continue to age with knees and so on and so forth. And then you become a better player than you were the last time I saw you or you're even at that level. So I just, I think you'll look back and say they miss an opportunity in two windows. How will Kauai be looked at the down the line, Howard? Listen, I mean, his place is secure. I mean, he made the 75 list, right? So he's, you know, we know he's going to be in the Hall of Fame. We know he's top 75 all time. He's a two-time finals MVP with two different teams and one of the great two-way players we've ever seen.

Just fantastic talent. But yeah, some guys have butts tacked to their careers. And listen, I want to just make this quick caveat first because Roger's kind of already decided to just write them off entirely. There's still a scenario here. There's still a scenario. It is within the realm of possibility that Kauai gets healthy, plays a majority. plays a majority of the games still on the schedule,

and the Clippers still make a deep playoff run next spring. It's not over yet, right? It's weird right now. It's concerning, but they're not done yet. It's not toast. So the post script on Kauai's career, you know, it's a few years off still, I think.

That's fair. Right. So now, maybe the Clippers make a run. Let's say they get to the finals and lose, right? And some people will have that high bar of like, oh, if you go out and get to Kauai Leonard and Paul George, anything less than a championship as a fail, we know that's bullshit. If they even get to the finals, the freaking L.A. Clippers, who were a joke for most of our lifetimes,

and the totality of your career, Raja, I don't think that team ever was considered respectable. It wasn't a place that you or anybody else wanted to go. It was a place that guys actually avoided going. And if they got there, they were immediately trying to figure out how to get out. And the Clippers were respectable enough, respected enough, that, suddenly two of the elite players in the game, whatever may have happened since then health-wise and everything else, those two guys chose the Clippers together.

That could not have happened in our lifetimes. Over the Lakers. Over the Lakers. We would have thought you were freaking crazy if you ever thought that that could happen. So I say, I've already been mocked for saying this by my colleagues at SI on our podcasts, because I did say this before the season, the Clippers have already won. They won in 2019 by getting those guys in forever changing.

Now, you could say Chris Paul and Blake Griffin and that group, the Lobb City group, changed the image. Yeah, that's fair too. But even in that, Chris Paul got traded there, wanted to be with the Lakers. Blake Griffin got drafted there. Nobody was choosing them. For the first time in the Clippers history, two all NBA caliber players, including a two-time finals, MVP, chose the freaking Clippers. That, to me, is a turning point for the franchise. And no matter what happens in this era, we won't see them quite the same way again. So it's not to let them off the hook if they don't win. Like, of course, your aspirations are higher when you get them.

But if health and everything else gets in the way, I'll still look at this as a defining moment in a positive way that changed the way we look at the clippers and the way that players and future stars will look at them and might see them as a destination, whereas they wouldn't have in the past. That means you can try to replicate this if this version fails. That's an interesting thought process on that.

I got to digest it, but I kind of like it. And I will say what I'm talking about looking back on them and thinking that's a missed opportunity, that would be if they were to make the finals in the next year or so, I do agree with you. I don't think you necessarily have to win it. I think you have to be viable and playing at a high level and be taking a swing at it for multiple years

for that fan base to be like, you know, we maximize the talent. Like you'd like to get a win in there. I just, there's, I don't, Because of the history of the injuries and stuff, I don't trust it. And yes, it is early. And I actually hope because Tulu's my guy and I like Kauai. So I agree with you.

Like they wouldn't necessarily have to win it for it to be a success. And it's an interesting thought about them having already succeeded with kind of changing the narrative around it. I don't know. Just why worry about that, man? My guy Trent Redden's out there too. So I pull for him. But that's when you're missing game, you've missed eight games already, 11 games in. And that's ugly.

That's not, I mean, I hope he's okay, but that's weird. Not great. Let's take a quick break. I want to talk about Janus. And we are back. The Bucks are off to their best start in franchise history. And, you know, we all know Janus is great. But he's doing it doing this.

He's averaging, I think, 32 and 12 and 5. He's just bonkers. I want to go look at that in regards, in comparison to his previous season. this is one of his best seasons. When I think about Janus's seasons, and it's only what nine games in, I'm thinking about this seems like the start of, you know, every guy has a season, right? Every guy that you know has a season. You think about Jordan's, what, 87, 88 year, right?

Or you think about, you know, LeBron in 2011, 2012, Currie, 2015, 16, Becknose shack, 99, 2000. I think we're starting to see that. What have you liked from Janus? I'll start with Raj. What have you liked from Janus this season? And what is different about him this season? Because he's playing without Middleton, one of their biggest acquisitions over the summer, Joe Ingalls.

But the bucks just seem like they haven't missed a beat because he's been so great. What have you seen from him? I mean, I've, Janus has been Janus to me. I mean, Janice is the most dominant basketball player on the planet. You know, he, when he, he's a bucket anyway he wants it. I've used that before, right? Like, he's going to get a bucket. And I like, you know, if I'm, I like the leadership.

I like the stability. I like, I like his demeanor for a team like Milwaukee. I like the mentality. It just looks like business. Do you know what I mean? When he's out there, he looks like he's not concerned with the, with the social media presence and this and that. Like he looks like a dude who's out there for business, for for next.

And so that's what I like about Janus. His game, I mean, he continues to add to his game for sure. Like there's things that he's doing this year. I mean, you know, I tuned in and seen him want to pull up and he'll continue to get marginally better in some of those areas. But I like, I like his demeanor in the way he goes about his business. And what I like about Milwaukee, I talked about their length and their size, their versatility defensively. you know, they went from one of the worst teams in the league last year at three-pointers allowed. They were basically walling up and just daring you to shoot threes.

And then it, you know, it bit him in their ass a bit in the, you know, in the Boston series. And you're giving up too many threes. And this year, they're top five in the league in terms of opponents, threes made per game against them. Like, they're out there now because they have the length to do both. And so they're out there and they're taking it away and they're defending and they make it difficult and they're challenging you for everything. And Janice is just a, he's just a dude.

man, his mentality is, I mean, it's Kobe-esque, it's MJ-esque. Like, he's a mean dude out there. Do you know he's out for bodies? Yeah. What have you seen from Janus this season, Howard, that's probably different than any guy you've covered or any player that you've seen during your time? I'll say this much. A couple of different things.

Some of this is personality related and some of it's play-related. The personality. part because Raja kind of touched on this. Think about all the other really high usage guys of this era, right? Because we have a lot of these guys around the league now where it's just, just keep giving it to your guy. Keep giving it to James Hardin in his Houston years. Keep giving it to Russ in his Oklahoma

years. Keep giving it to Luka now. Keep giving it to Yannis. And Janus, he's like just a tad below like his career high usage rate right now. Like he's up in the stratosphere in terms of usage. And I don't, I generally think that the high usage just goes back to our discussion earlier Raja about like Mike Dantone, the ball

finds energy, Phil Jackson, and triangle offense, egalitarian stuff, right? You want everybody to feel involved and everybody to feel good and everybody be in a rhythm. I'm always a little alarmed or concerned for a team

that is too all in on one guy doing absolutely everything. He's either scoring or he's passing to the guy who scores. I think there are limits to that in the playoffs. But one, Janice makes my contention look stupid

because he's just that freaking good with it. And two, if you think, all those guys are just named, if I asked you who you would most want to play with, probably honest, right? Roger's not in his head. Roger's like, I'm going to be in the corner right here.

Just give them all when you need me to. Just get when you need me, I'm right here. Just get. Like he's just, he's such a, he's so good-hearted, he's so humble. He's so, like, and yes, there is that other thing. On the court, he's a killer. But he's never trying to rub your

facing it. He's not, he doesn't do that, like, maybe because he grew up in Greece instead of in the U.S. He doesn't have that need to be the most macho guy out there all the time. Like, I love Kobe. And all the years I covered Kobe through all the ups and downs, everything else, I appreciated the way he was built mentally to do what he did and the way he felt he had to carry himself, sometimes to an extreme, to be that guy. And then toward, you know, the end of his career, when people were like, wait, Kobe seems really nice. He was never nice before. he's just trying to spin us all. I was like, no, no, no.

That's the guy I always saw all the other times. And Logan and I think have talked about this before. But that's, but he, Kobe had to fashion this other personality on the court to be that guy at all times. That's how it worked for him. Janus doesn't really have to do that to an extreme. And it doesn't mean he doesn't play aggressively. That he doesn't want to rip your heart out and all that other stuff. He just doesn't have to say it.

He's not going to get, could you imagine Yonis getting up on the podium be like, yeah, man, I'm going to rip your heart out. That's just what I do. This is, but like, it would sound ridiculous coming from him. And this is the guy who's like, I love smoothies. Yeah, telling dad jokes. Yeah, dad jokes. And like me, he watches the Kardashians every week, which is, I love it. I'm here for it.

Did you guys see? Did you guys see the video made the rounds, I think, yesterday over the weekend? Janus is walking off the court after practice or shoot around. I think with, I think with Sergei Baca. And Janus is joking about like, you know, I'm good looking. I'm athletic. I'm like, okay, so I can't shoot three. He was basically saying, like, if I could shoot three, I'd be insufferable.

I got to, something's got to keep me humble. Yeah. And it was really funny because the way he said it to, even the way he said it was self-effacing. He wasn't really trying to. They's got that, that funny, goofy grin on his face. Shaq said the exact same thing once upon a time about free throws. Basically, like, I'm the most dominant ever. And if, you know, if I could shoot free throws, too, I'd basically be, I'd be insufferable.

And so it was reminded me of that. Like, some guys are so freaking good and so unstoppable that it almost is. to the point where, yeah, there's got to be one little flaw in the game, a snag for us to talk about. But even then, Janus is not afraid to shoot the three. Janus is not afraid to shoot jumpers in general. Janus is not, he's not afraid of failure. Like, I just appreciate the way he carries himself out there

because there's a confidence without too much cockiness. There is an ability to extend himself and try things that maybe are a little out of his reach without worrying about if he misses. he just seems like a great dude to play with and be around. He is, and he's still at the point in there, because he's still at the point in his career where he's, like, not taking the amount of plays off that become obvious to other people on the court, if that makes sense.

So once these stars age defensively, you know that they have to take some plays off. Do you know what you? Janus is still out there as your, as your A man, like the block he had in the finals two years ago type of shit, right? where he is just going to will his way to a defensive stop. And when you're playing with a guy like that was your best player

and you see them out there taking the challenge, especially defensively, when you know how much they mean to you offensively, that's another level of respect that you have for them too. That's another level of because that, you know, in a locker room, there's a hierarchy. And we all know, hey, man, like, we're here to help, you know, with the offensive load.

Like, I'm here to support you. You're going to be the marquee. This is what you do. And I'll be in the corner waiting. going to play off of you, so on and so forth. But on the defensive end, that's where dudes kind of look around and they're like, okay, shit, yeah, all right, you're in here banging too?

I can appreciate that because not everyone will do that. You know, not every offensive star is going to do that with you. And so I'm not saying you lose respect for them, but there's a level of respect gained when your starts out there on that side of the ball doing it too. A lot of the guys that we were just talking about a minute ago when I was saying of all the high usage guys, like how many of those guys I named actually play defense at the level

or even try, granted, Janus has built, you know, differently physically. But it's also that he cares about that side of the game, right? Like, the guy, you know. That's how you show you care about me. You know what I mean? Like, as a teammate, that's how you show. Yeah.

You referenced Shaq Howard. And I feel like we're about to have the conversation that we usually have and we're in the same city where I just ask you how the questions about the Lakers dynasty and you just roll with it. By the way, great book out right now called The Greatest Show on Earth from Sports Illustrated in Triumph Books, documenting the entire history of the Lakers dynasty, go to Triumph Books, enter code Lakers 30 for a 30% discount. Thank you, Logan. All right, there you go. All right. Well, then here we go. But my question is,

let's compare and contrast Janus and Shaq for a bit, right? Like, you covered Shaq. And I referenced the 99-2000 season. That was his MVP season as like Shaq's magnum opus of a regular season going into a finals championship. That is Shaq's, in my opinion, absolute peak. What is, what do you see from that peak, Shaq, to what we're seeing now with Janus? And as he's ascending still into his peak, it seems like. That's an interesting question.

Wow. They're hard to compare just because of context, right? Like, Shaq is doing this at a time that they're also navigating all of the Shaq and Kobe intra-team rivalry stuff. Shack came into the NBA with these ridiculous expectations. Like, I'll never forget, because it was before I covered the NBA. I was just a fan in the mid-90s and covering small-town city hall for a small-town paper

in Northern California. When Shack ends up coming to the NBA and has commercials, I remember feeling like, this guy's got commercials and he hasn't even played a day yet. like really because that didn't happen back then right so shack came in with these incredible expectations and goes to Orlando and gets them to the finals within four years and is well in his way so when he gets to the lakers and he's got the having to deal with just the ignominy of being swept in the finals and trying to rebuild a thing with Kobe that he previously had with penny and all this there was always a chip on shack's shoulder and there was always this thing that literally anything less

than a championship was a failure. And it was, he carried a lot different burden, I think. And he's just a different guy. So like with Janus, right, 15th pick in the draft, nobody saw this coming. Janus has just like grown before our eyes. He's already got a championship. He's, you know, already got two MVP's. He, like, all the pressure in a way, I don't want to say the pressure's off of him.

It's always on you when you're one of the all-time greats. But partially because of the way he's wired. And partially because of just his career arc, I feel like everything's gravy for Janus. Yonis can retire tomorrow. He's going to the Hall of Fame. Yonis can retire tomorrow and he's a top 75 player. Janus is like nothing we've ever seen before. Shaq was like nothing we'd ever seen before, but he was at least a version of it, right?

Like Shaq was at least a different, a bigger, stronger version of Wilt or somebody, right? There is no comp for Janus. And so it, that, that, that, plays into it a little bit for me. The other thing is, apologies, Shaq, Shaq didn't win another MVP after that season that you're referring to the 99-2000 season, Logan, partially because of injury.

Part of that is because the way he did or did not take care of himself at times. Part of it is that Shaq would come into a season trying to play his way into shape. When we used to talk about the Lakers flipping the switch, it was really about Shaq flipping the switch. It was about him getting to a point where he could be that guy again. And yeah, there were years there where he thought he should have won MVP again, but it went to Duncan or somebody else in part because, I remember having this

argument with Shaq once or just discussion with Shaq, but like, we're holding you to a standard that may be unfair because the standard is you. And if you can't still flirt with or approximate what you were doing in 99, 2000, when your blocks drop from like three and a half a game to 1.8 or whatever it was, if your rebounds are dropping from like 14 to 11 and a half, like by anybody else's standards, you're still the most dominant player in the game, as he would always say, and you're still amazing and you're still unguardable one-on-one, all this, but it's not the standard that we saw when you won MVP. And so with Janus, he still has room to grow. And I think obviously, you know, Janus takes really good care of himself. We're also just in a different era of the NBA where, like,

guys don't, don't, like, let it go in the offseason and then come to camp and get in shape during October. They're playing year-round. Everybody's got, like, freaking chefs and nutrition and all. Like, there's just a whole different year-round, very attuned to your body and your diet and all this that didn't, was not the norm in the early 2000s. Yeah. I don't, I mean, I think that I don't, I don't have much more to add to that. I've always said it would have been really interesting. There are a lot of guys across the history of the NBA would have been interesting to see them train and play in an era shack is one of those guys. If he had, not tried to be a bigger, more physical wilt or something like that and had trained to play kind of like Janus has trained to play. Do you understand what I'm saying? Because when he came in, he was thin and he was athletic,

and he was moving. And then he just turned in because there were so many seven-footers and the game was so punitive physically. Like he turned into this big hulking type of figure. It would have been cool to see him in a Janus role molded like Janus has been molded because he could have been crazy too. Not that he wasn't. Yeah. No, here's a, here's a fun thing for, you know, younger fans who maybe didn't see,

especially the Orlando years of Shaq, go, go find Orlando Shaq and LSU shack on YouTube, because he's not this big hulking dude. He's still bigger than any average human being by a long shot. But he was, there was, he was a little more sculpted and athletic and spry. And he still retained a lot of that, even as he added all that muscle over the years. But Shaq had to because the NBA at that time, was the guy in the post gets the shit beat out of him and Shaq more than any of them. So he had to take a lot. He had to dish out a lot. And he did what he thought he needed to do for that era. But if Shaq came in in this era, a pace and space era, at a get out and run era, the guy that you saw in those YouTube videos of his Orlando years, if you think, if that had been

his career, and especially transpose that shack to this time in the NBA, man. Correct. He'd be crushing dudes. In the opening night, I saw Shaq go up to Draymond Green and give him a hug. And it told me everything I needed to know about how Shaq would be in this era. It just told me everything. Just like Draymond disappeared. But, Roger, you were a teammate of Shaq.

What was it like playing against them and then playing with him? Playing against Shaq, I remember in those 01 finals, Larry Brown telling me, like, if Shaq gets it here, wherever it was, We're going to send you down. We want you to double him. And if you have to foul him, just foul him. And so, I was, no, I ran down there, you know, and I had never really played against Shaq. I'd only been there for like a month. So I ran down there.

And I think I put two hands on his forearm. And I shit you not. He lifted me off the floor as he went up. Like, I was like, oh, shit. You know, like, oh, my God. I'm in the air. You know, he was just. Eject.

Yeah, I'm out. He was so big and so hard to, you know, plus, at the. time, you know, Shaq had, you know, you were taught as a big to have those chicken wings out and they were right at eye level anytime you went in there to dive at him. So he was literally scary, you know, because you felt like, okay, here's a story when he was a teammate. And this is how scary messing with Shaq was. I am baseline, low man, I think, or no, he's low man, weak side. I don't know he's there. Someone's going to the basket and I'm on their hip trying to control them. They're going to beat me to the basket. So all I can do now is jump and try to

contest the layup. And unbeknownst to me, Shaq's coming from the from the backside. And so I'm in the air, just about to reach at the ball and then the lights went out. Is there a practice? No, no, no, this is in a game. And so I wake up and I look up and Shaq's standing over me. He had clipped me with his elbow. Oh, I was out. I was out. But, you know, that's how scary he could be, right? Like, it wasn't like he fouled the hell out of me. He just was coming to help me on a shot. He was being a good teammate, man, knocked me out cold. I was out. So he was scary to play against. As a teammate, I mean, you know, Shaq came to Phoenix like bearing gifts, literally.

You know, he was just a great dude, man. He was, he was like, I'm going to help all of you guys be better, especially these shooters. He was there to protect Amari said, hey, I'm going to help you. You know, there's this X, Y, and Z I can do for you. I'm like big bro. And then to me and the other shooters, he said, I'm just going to make your job that much easier. Just, you know, get in my vision. You know, when this happens, I need you to do this.

He was like, and I'm just going to put it on you. And so, you know, he was a great teammate to be around. What gets lost about Shaq because, and it probably does about a lot of, gets lost, you know, about a lot of bigs is how bright they are and how well they see the game. Like, we always accredit that to Steve Nash's and the Jason kids and these great point guards, Mark Jackson and those guys. But Shaq was brilliant. He knew the game inside and out. I mean, he knew exactly just like a point guard, but playing it from a seven foot 300 and some pound, you know, position. and just dropping you off like that.

So I really enjoyed Shaq. Before we get out of here, Howard, what's your best Shaq story? You knew I was going to do it. I mean, there are plenty. There are lots. The best one you could say on this podcast. I've told you about the various times that Shaq got physical with the media, right? I don't mean this in any kind of untoward way.

I just mean like when Shaq wanted to get playful or he's like kind of messing with us, I think I've probably told you these Anyway, I'll just give you two So Tim Kawakami is covering the Lakers for the LA Times At this point in time, this is early 2000s Shout out Tim Kawakami, friend of the show And Kawakami has a knack

A bit of a knack on the beat For kind of getting You know Does he? Getting under guy's skin a little bit Especially checks. Yeah, you know, Tim can be a little aggressive I learned a lot covering the beat with Tim

actually. Same. So we and we both. I like, There were times we're kind of double-teaming a guy and, like, they're getting a little annoyed because we're both, you know, we were pretty aggressive as reporters. But Tim had, it was on a streak of getting under Shaq's skin through, I don't know, how many days, how many games, how many practices. And Shaq was to be like, ask a good fucking question. Ask a good question.

And that was his thing. He kept hitting Tim back with it. He didn't like the question. Ask a good question. And one day, we're sitting there. It was a staple center, home locker room. And Tim asked some question. Can't remember what it was.

don't remember the context, but Tim asked the question. And Shaq would always, he would always be sitting down, hunched over, kind of looking down, not looking at us for a lot of these interviews. And all this thing, he looks up and his eyes get wide and he looks up and he goes, Kawakami asked a good question. Kawakami asked a good question. And he leaps up, he grabs Kawakami and he starts Pogo sticking him around the locker room. You talk about it.

Hey, I don't know if you know Kawakami. Raj, I don't know if you know Tim Kawakami. He's a legend. He's a legend in the Bay and he was a legend in L.A. Times. but this guy is like he is by the book and he's not fucking around like he makes like this is a guy that makes like owners quiver when he asks a question right so like like very serious about his stuff and now he's in a bear hug getting pogoed up and out yeah Tim will ask anybody anything totally fearless what I always admired about it remains so to this day but when you say that

draymond disappeared in Shaq's bear hug I mean Kaakami not you know not just him me anybody We are all like half the size of Draymond even. So imagine how quickly Tim just was engulfed, disappeared. And Shaq's pog was sticking around the room. Tim is just hanging on for dear life. As Shaq's going, come, me ask you a good question. And there's bouncing as he says this with Tim wrapped up in there. It was phenomenal.

My version of that, so I was not quite as harrowing, but a couple years after that, we're in Dallas for a shoot-around. I don't even remember what I asked that day, but it was the opposite. Whatever I asked or whatever line of question I was going on was, annoying him so much. And again, he was not trying to hurt me and did not hurt me. But Shaq just at some point was annoyed enough.

He just leaned over, grabbed me and threw me over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes. And suddenly, I'm looking down his backside with my recorder in one hand and my not pen and the other hand hanging on for Deerlap, just trying not to drop anything and not die. And then at some point he put me down and everything was fine. But yeah. Oh, shit. Well, there you go, man. fucking Howard Beck.

Thanks so much for coming on, bro. Howard motherfucking Beck finally came on the real ones with Raja on. Because Raja, we finally got you on with Howard. Yeah, I was glad to have been here. Roger was dodging me,

I know. Yeah, Roger was dodging. Yeah, yeah. Roger don't fuck with the media. It's all good. That has been another edition. Good being with you guys.

Thank you. Thanks so much, man. That's been another edition of Monday Real Ones. Howard, come on any time. You have an open invitation. This was great.

You could catch us Mondays and Wednesday. on the Ringer NBA feed, man. We will see you guys on Thursday. Talk soon. Holla.