The Ringer NBA Show - Hype for the Upcoming All-Star Weekend and Trade Deadline Final Thoughts With Ben Golliver. Plus, Race Relations in the NFL With Tashan Reed. | Weekends With Wos

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

On this packed episode, Wos sits down with Ben Golliver, the National NBA writer for ‘The Washington Post,’ to talk all things All-Star Weekend in the days leading up, then discuss the dunk contest, skills competition, and the All-Star draft. They also touch on their final thoughts regarding the trade deadline ,honing in on the Mavericks with Luka Doncic and Kyrie Irving. Later in the episode, Wos sits down with the sports writer for ‘The Athletic’ and creator of podcast ‘Between the Lines,’ Tashan Reed, to discuss race and the NFL. Host: Wosny Lambre Guests: Ben Golliver and Tashan Reed Producer: Jade Whaley Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the pod. Specifically, the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, where we're breaking down every new episode of HBO's The Last of Us. On Sunday nights, grab your battery and join Van Lathen and Charles Holmes for an instant reaction to the latest episode. Then head back to the QZ on Tuesdays for a deep dive with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. From character arcs to video game adaptation choices, story themes to needle drops, we'll parse every inch of this cordyceps-coded universe.

Watch out for mouth tendrils and follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Back, ladies and gentlemen, to the latest edition of weekends. I'm your host, Big Wazze, aka Wazney Lambray, and I'm joined by a friend of the show. Got to be my most popular guest, man. It's literally a tie between you and Sabrina as far as people who the people go crazy for every time they go on. He's a national columnist at the Washington Post.

He is the co-host of the greatest of all talk podcast. Now of statutory, I get this with my statutory subscription these days. Shouts to Ben Thompson. Ben Goliver, what's going on, brother? Well, I'm out here in Salt Lake City already, as I'm scouting out the streets for you, saw a nice big mural that had Rudy Gobert and John Stockton, Carl Malone, Jerry Sloan on it. I know those are some of your favorites of all time. Pretty much across the board.

The streets are ready for you. Big live show you're going to host, right? That's right. Right. We're hosting a live show on Saturday afternoon. You can get tickets in the show description. Excuse me, Saturday night, 10 p.m. local time, mountain time. I've never, no, that's a lie. I went to Denver once. So I've been in Mountain Time one time. But yeah, get your tickets. They're running out fast. Well, Mountain Time is easily the most confusing time zone because it just, you know, you're trying to subtract, but it's a different subtraction that you normally do. But the bonus of it is that they're not lying. There's actually mountains out here. They're gorgeous. They got snow on them right now.

streets are clean, beautiful clear air. You know, it's only like 30, so it's a little bit colder than L.A., but Utah's ready for you, Oz. I'm telling you right now, man. I bet you they pack out for you, too. There's a lot of basketball dorks in this state. They're going to be excited to see you and your, your brethren. Well, I hope so. And I just need you to do me one solid since you're there so much earlier than I am. You need to find the first, Bring them Young mural. So I can check that out. Shouts to the Latter-day Saints of Jesus Christ and all of that. You're not going to have any problem finding those wads. And what they really love, we know what they love out here is statues of people with, like, wheelbarrows and other kinds of wagons.

Like in the hotel lobby. The old west. In the hotel lobby, they had this guy with the wagon. He's dragging his whole family. You could just feel that burden of masculinity in that statue was something that we could probably all relate to. It's everywhere out here, man, they specialize in it. Listen, man, everybody knows we're at a crisis of masculinity. Men don't get to feel like men anymore because their jobs don't require them to load up barrels of hay or bales of hay and wheel barrels from the well three miles to their crib.

So men don't feel like men anymore. But, you know, All-Star Weekend. I wanted to do a little bit of preview here on weekends for people going into their weekend. And if you're an NBA fan listening to this, obviously, you're going to be a show. be participating with All-Star Weekend in some shape or form, whether it be the vomatrocious celebrity game that is every single year where people of questionable reputation and fame call themselves celebrity and play terrible basketball. There's the Rising Stars game, the three-point contest, the skills competition, the dunk contest. Then, of course, the actual game itself,

the Kapper All-Star Sunday. What's traditionally been? been your favorite event, Ben, and what do you look forward to nowadays? Now as you a grown man? Well, traditionally, it's always the slam dunk contest. I remember back when I was at Sports Illustrated, I went back through and YouTubeed every single dunk contest from the entire NBA history of it so I could rank all of them. And that was a laborious process. I mean, probably took a couple years off my life. But there's obviously been some classics. And every time there's a classic, it convinces you that anything's possible, right? Like you see Aaron Gordon, do the butt dunk and you're just like the contest is back for good it's going to be awesome every

single year you see the Vince Carter one from 2000 same thing it's like here we are and then you know more often than not and I would say probably like four out of every five years maybe nine out of every 10 years it's just a brutal watch and this year I wanted to run this by you because I have never seen this happen before they didn't even have four NBA contestants in the NBA slam dunk contest until they announced the field on Wednesday, Mack McClung was in the G League. And then randomly, Darry in the 76ers, sign him to a two-way contract.

And like an hour later, it's like Philadelphia 76ers guard, MacMeclung's in the dunk contest. This guy's played two NBA games in his entire career. He's a YouTube sensation. I mean, when he was in high school, this guy's getting millions of views off of his dunks. But I'm just wondering,

did the 76ers give him this two-way contract solely so they could pretend he's an NBA player and put him in this dunk contest? Is that what happened? It sure feels like it. And again, you mentioned all of the classic dunk contests with going back to Dr. J. David Thompson, of course, the classic Neek and Michael Jordan battles. Kobe Bryant famously had a star turn with the East Bay Funk. Speaking of East Bay Funk, my man, Isaiah Ryder, you know, Vince Carlin.

of course. Jason Richardson. Jason, Richardson. The list goes on and on. These are legendary moments with actually big players that we cared about for decades. And then you got Matt McClunk, right? Matt McClone steps into the history of that dunk contest. And that's kind of where I'm at with it.

Like, I love how you say when you watch previous dunk contests or when you're watching a classic one live, you feel like, oh, this is what it is. This is what it's about. For me, I don't care. I haven't cared about the dunk contest for years. And because when I think of the dunk, I think of Nick Robinson bricking a bunch of dunks in a row. I just think of the anxiety of being in a room full of people

at an all-star watch party. And we're like, uh-huh, nothing. And I can't even, I've never been in the building for a dunk contest. So I can't even imagine what that feels like when people are bombing, Ben. That's the thing. Why, is this spectrum in the building. is unreal. Because when it's good, it's the best you've ever had. And when it's bad, you just want to go to the bathroom and never come back. You just want to lock yourself in the stall. Like, it gets so

uncomfortable. Like, Jalen Green's out there wearing some NFT chain last year, breaking like 10 dunk straight. It's not even secondhand embarrassment. You're having first hand embarrassment because you're sitting there watching it. Like it's, it just feels horrible. And so I kind of like these highs and lows. It gets me, it gets my juices going, even when it's bad. But I guess for me, when I'm taking a step back and looking forward, how do we fix this thing? My radical solution for you is that Elon Musk breaks Twitter. So there's no negative social media reaction available because there's just no platform. Once Twitter's out of the way, do the stars come back and say, hey, I'm not about to get roasted

online. Let's just go out there and then put on a good show. Maybe if you don't have to worry about being the butt of everyone's jokes, if you miss your dunks, maybe guys like John Morant and Zion Williamson step up and save this thing, right? Because it boils down to the stars. If John Moran was in this contest, you'd be skipping your live pod to go watch John Moran at the dunk contest. Maybe.

I mean, maybe you'd be rescheduling it, right? I would be very enticed to go. Yeah, 100%. If they would feel like there was stakes, right? If it was Jha, if it was Zion, if it was, you know, just some of our best dunkers, young dunkers in the league, I'd be like, okay, I feel like there's going to be some level of competitiveness and bragging rights involved in all of this. And yeah, that would definitely be a quick fix.

The thing that I feel like is most sort of holding the dunk contest back is the ubiquity of dunks now. Right. It's not just that we have league pass and we can watch a bunch of games where dunks happen is that we can pull them up on YouTube, pull them up on Insta, pull them up on IG. It's just, it doesn't feel as viscerally special nowadays than back in the days.

Because, like, look, I would watch two games on NBC on the weekends. If I had cable at the time, I might catch a couple of TNT, I might. Most of the times I didn't have cable back then. So in total, I was watching two NBA games a week. Right? So, like, I wasn't watching Knicks on MSG every single night, which I probably wouldn't

have been prone to do anyway. But, like, you wouldn't have had league pass. You didn't have the internet. And more importantly, when I would go out to the park to hoop or I was at my own basketball practice as a young person playing stuff like CYO and rec league stuff, nobody was dunking. So it was literally special whenever you saw somebody dunk anything, you know, you. You didn't even have the history of just these guys have taken dunks so far, evolved the form, so incredibly far and impressively. Like, they've done a masterful job of making the dunks more creative, more difficult, incredible.

However, it's not even that they're just going up against that. It's like, we just see dunks all the time now. No, wise, it's a great point. The standard for what we see as a dunk on a daily basis is so high from a technique standpoint. And also, we're only seeing the makes. There's not, you know, Team Flight Brothers is not going to upload 15 misses that it takes them until they get that one incredible dunk that goes viral that we all see on Instagram or TikTok, right?

And so that's the problem is these guys are being put in a super high-pressurized environment. Millions of people are watching. Everyone's just, you know, roasting them online. And they're trying to compete with the 100% success rate that you have when you're watching highlights online because nobody posts their misses, right? So it's a very difficult spot for these guys to be in. I understand why somebody like Shaden Sharp would think, oh, that seems like a good idea.

And then really think about it, be like, nah, you know, probably the risks outweigh the rewards. But I'm not sure there's any other easy solution. But my other radical plan to save the dunk contest is that you and I sneak into that Vivint Arena early. And, you know, we get one of those ladders that Janus threw out of the way earlier this season. And we lower that rim, was. Let's just bring it down to 9-6 and don't tell anyone.

Okay, that's going to be your secret, my secret. No one else is going to know. We just bring that rim down. Maybe we don't have as many misses. Everybody's having a better time when we can sort of reenact like Levine versus Gordon in Toronto, which was one of the great moments of All-Star history, probably the best moment other than, you know, like Kobe breaking his nose or Steph going for 50 last year or MJ showing up at halftime. Like those are some of the best moments I've seen in the last 10 years ago into these things.

and we just need to kind of trend back that direction. We don't need Trey Murphy the 3rd, Kenyon Martin Jr., MacKulng, Jericho Sims. These guys who, as soon as they announce- Jericho Sims, like, and I love Jericho Sims. I love how hard he plays. The guy is, you know, he plays with an incredible motor. I like his style of play for a big guy. Tibbs seems to like him well enough, so it shows you he's doing the right things, right?

He's not that type of dunker. No. He's not. Here's how you know, Was, when did you guys announce your live show? When did you guys tell the public, hey, we're about to have this big event? This would have been about three weeks ago. Yeah. When did the NBA announce that Jericho Sims was in the dunk contest?

Tuesday night. It's on Saturday, Was. They gave them three days a heads up. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're not juiced about the event themselves. That feels like a red flag and a problem. And hopefully the NBA takes this, you know, criticism constructively. And we look forward to maybe a more star-studded event next year.

I'm still going to be there like a diehard watching it. You know, I'm a degenerate was. I'm going to give you the dunk-by-dunk breakdown. No questions asked. But, you know, I'm already like dreading the fact that that's my life here on Saturday night. And that's not how it should be. We should be looking forward with the anticipation for this thing. Because it's usually, you know, you go back to 88, Jordan versus Neek, 2000, Vince Carter.

Those are show-stopping moments. Yeah, I do want to talk to you about some of the other events. Quickly, do you enjoy the skills competition? Three-point competition has kind of become my favorite of All-Star Saturday because it's just like just watching people, you know, just basically go insane from three and just can't miss. It's like one of the most exhilarating feelings. I enjoy skills competition well enough.

Where are you at with that? Yeah, I mean, it's fine. Like, you know, it's kind of goofy. It feels like something you do with your friends like over the summer, you know? It's like, let's just like make it off. You know what, Ben, I respect that because so much of NBA media is guys being like, oh, yeah, I like the GMs because I, too, have a fantasy team and blah, blah, blah, blah. Ben's like, like, no, I don't respect things that I can do.

Well, I mean, don't you just feel like, you know, where's the water balloons at the end of the skills challenge, right? Like, are you guys going to play Capture the Flag? Like, that's a vibe to it. The three-point contest, I'm with you on that, like, when somebody gets on a heater and somebody hits, like 12 threes in a row, they're knocking down the money balls, that is crazy. the crowd really gets into it. And I feel like that event has really come into its own during the three-point era. And it's a more star-studded event outside of the actual game.

Right. It's when you're, I mean, some years you're getting like Steph versus Dame or something like that. That's crazy. You know, that's pretty fun. What I want to see, though, and this is another one of my off-the-beat-path ideas. I want the three-point competition to have a little bit more of a figure skating influence. I want there to be degree of difficulty to your routine. So you can set the balls up, you know, the ball racks can be set up all over the core.

you get extra points for running and doing like catch and shoot threes as opposed to standstill threes. I want Steph Curry and Dame shooting from half court and getting tons of extra points for, you know, knocking down shots from there. I just feel like the three point shot of just being grabbed the ball rack and shoot, that's not the modern game anymore. We got guys doing like, you know, triple crossovers back and forth, back and forth, pulling up, step back, side steps, all this stuff. And so the three point contest to me needs to evolve and show all the stuff that these guys can do when they're shooting the ball because frankly watching step curry warm up before games is actually a more complicated experience than watching these guys shoot during the three point

contest so he set the standard sort of like those dunkers we were talking about earlier step curries raised the bar right so you want to you want to add a skills competition component to three points shots like make guys come off for screens or right you know dummies or something or run catch and shoot fire yeah so ideally i'm saying you can kind of do it however you want like if you're Kyle Corver and you just want to go up there and chuck with your elbow and get your elbow up and you know you're good, go ahead. You can shoot that way, but you're only going to get a certain number of points for that. If you're Steph and you want to come out and, you know, break off three crossover dribbles, two hands in your face fade away and you're shooting it from 30. Okay, I'm going to

give you a few extra points for hitting that shot, right? Do you want to go back to half court and just chuck over and over and over again, sort of like Dame and those guys do? Well, let's give those guys five points per shot. Rock and Jock component, if you will. Right. Let's just, yeah, let's just have the scoring reflect degree of difficulty. That's all I'm saying. So it's not necessarily about who makes the most shots. It's who can make the most difficult shots, you know, regularly during, say, a set time period.

I know it's complicated. It'd be confusing. I just love the amount of thought you've put into the three-point contest because it shows you a dedication to every single aspect of the sport, Ben Goliver. See, here's the thing. Like, you go to fun places like Arbezo, and I joke, you know, with you about that.

I'm just in my living room coming up with these. ideas wise. I got no life. I'm not trying to front. We're not going to do this tonight. We're not going to do this. Are we still doing Elam ending on the All-Star game? We are. Good luck explaining that to anyone. Try to explain it. I'm not going to, but it's been fun since I've been watching it. So kudos for that. I love the game. I really do. I like that it's risen in competitiveness in recent years because, man, it got to a point where I was It's like even me diehard NBA person. It's just like I'm not going to watch a glorified layup line for two hours of my life.

This is craziness. You know, so I'm glad that they've added some level of competitiveness to a gamesmanship. I'll be watching a game and all of that. Well, hey, the good news for you, Oz, is if you do want to watch a two-hour layup line, all you got to do is watch any NBA game between like, I don't know, Christmas and the stretch run in April because I don't see anybody play defense anymore these days. Dude, that warrior, that warrior is. game last night was

tough against the clippers. It was just like, they're not even, there's no resistance whatsoever at this point. No, I mean, if you could hold a team under 120, coach is like getting Gatorade dunk in the locker room, man. It's kind of wild where the NBA game has gone.

So who do you think is the last player picked? Because they're doing the all-star draft like right before the game this year, right? I feel like that that whole conversation gets a lot of attention. I feel like people kind of like side-eye de Manasabonis and they feel like he's going to get that treatment. It's going to probably be a white guy, right, who isn't Luca or Yokic, you know.

Well, I love how LeBron always takes, like, Luca, like, really early. Like, he's just kind of christened Luca as his guy, you know? So we don't have to... I get it because Luca has been... He said that LeBron is his favorite player since he's been drafted. Like, he's been, like, my favorite. favorite guy in the NBA is LeBron James. That's who I pattened my game after. And so he's been so public about his admiration for LeBron. And also, you know, LeBron's so used to every new kid being like,

yeah, my favorite play is Kobe. I feel like he's just like, he's got a bear hug, Luca, for that very reason. And then, you know, Lori, Lori marking and, you know. Yeah. Well, tell you what, get ready for the airport, wise, because you're going to see Lowry pictures everywhere as soon as you land at the airport, man. They have just plastered marketed material all over the airport. That's actually a pretty good nomination. I could see Yakum being the last pick. Or they might go Edwards just because he's the young guy or, you know, maybe Jaron because he's the young guy too. Sometimes they just kind of give people the rookie treatment. That's a good take on, that's a good take on LeBron, though. If it's like, if Lucas scratches his back, he's going to scratch yours.

Come on now. Like, we know what LeBron's about. And much respect. I'd probably be the same way if I were him. Get sick and tired of people, you know, saying everybody else. is their favorite guy, and the guy finally calls me his favorite. I'm going to show him some love. But I wanted to transition into something else, Ben. This part of the show happens to be sponsored by the great people of Mikalob. Mickelope Ultra, to be exact. They say consistency is the key to success.

They weren't wrong, but it's only worth it if you enjoy it. Miculobus Ultra is consistently smooth, consistently refreshing, and consistently light. It's the perfect beer for watching what happens by the trade deadline all season. And I wanted to get into something with you, Ben, and it's about it's only worth it if you enjoy it. Let's just say things would have gone perfectly for the next this season. And they somehow squeaked out a title. do you think it would have been worth it to Joe Sy? Who anybody who knows anything about what's gone on in Brooklyn knows that he was completely disgusted,

particularly by the doings of Kyrie Irvin and his refusal to suit up, get vaccines, not be a shithead on his social media with anti-Semitism? Do you think that there's any sort of happening that any outcome that could have happened? with the Nets that Joe Sye would have been like, yeah, this is worth it. You know, I saw Josai at Crypto.com Arena doing standing ovations for Utah Watanabe during that stretch where Kairi was suspended. And his body language made it seem like he felt like the Nets season was about to be turned around.

And here they are going for that championship chase. And in my mind, I could just see his entire memory being wiped clean. And he's like, you know what, start fresh. Here we are. You know, it's the champion Brooklyn Nets. So I think that on some level, most NBA owners that actually care are so cutthroat and ruthless about trying to win. And you get so much adulation if you do win. Like when was the last NBA champion who didn't get like a bear hug after the fact?

You know what I mean? Who wasn't like got its flowers and all that. So if you really like play it out, the Knicks are at home early in the playoffs. Somehow Brooklyn gets through Boston so they get their revenge. Somehow Brooklyn takes care of Janus. You know, Katie now he's the best player in the league. somehow they survive whoever comes out of the West. Like I feel like that momentum would have built over the course of the playoffs.

And everyone would have been like, well, what do you mean pandemic? There was no pandemic. This is post-pandemic. Like, what do you mean the whole controversy from last, you know, about the social media post? Yeah, yeah. Or like, you know, that social media post. Oh, that was just a tweet. He deleted.

He apologized. You know, that was everybody kind of freaking out. I feel like everyone's so quick to kind of move forward. And in some cases, like whitewash things that I think there is a scenario where they could have like kept it all together, kind of been crowned as heroes. In theory, I just think the problems in practice, this team was never going to survive that kind of a playoff chase, right? They were never going to make it through the grind. Even if they had kept Kyrie and Kevin, or if they had just traded Kyrie and tried to

keep Kevin and build a championship team around him, I just don't think they were ever going to be that last team standing in the East. And I think ultimately that's part of the reason why they traded Kevin, because they could not look him and Rich Klymonds straight in the face and say, hey, stick around. We got you, Dorian Finney Smith and, you know, McCail Bridd, you know, whoever else. I got all these wings for you. You know, Spencer Dinwiddie,

we're going to trade all these other pieces to surround you, you know, with these role players and you're going to carry them to the title. Like, nobody was going to buy that. And that's why they ended up, I think, pulling the plug on Katie. Katie on the Sons and Kyrie on the Mavs is worth it. If you get to enjoy watching how they transform the Western Conference,

dedicating an entire evening to watching a big slate of games is always worth it. Miculove Ultra, the perfect balance of taste and refreshment, only 2.6 carbs and 95 calories. Head to micelope Ultra.com backslash Ultra Club. Now, it's only worth it if you enjoy it. Must be 21 years of age. Enjoy responsibly. All right, Ben, so you're... You're a Luca guy, I feel like, big, big Luca guy, big Luca watcher.

Your joke that LeBron orchestrated the Kyrie deal so that Luca would come straight into his arms in L.A. was a great one. I surely appreciated that. But, you know, I'm somebody who's kind of bullish on this deal on the court. I think this is something that can work on the court. I understand how limited it makes them defamation. it makes them defensively. And I understand why people will be like, well,

Luca's so used to playing this one type of basketball and not taking a backseat and not deferring and who's going to take the last shot and all of this crap. I think on the floor, though, this makes a lot of sense for them. Yeah, I would not dispute that at all. I mean, I'm a big skeptic of why you do this trade if you're doubtless, but I think the on-court offensive fit is like the kind of the last issue on the table. Luca is less selfish than everybody thinks he is, right?

I think so, too. He made it work pretty darn well with Jalen Brunson. Now, Jalen Brunson has his own team. His numbers are going to spike, but those two guys together were really hard for opponents to handle last season. I mean, Ben, sorry to interject, but the guy worked his way into damn near Max contract playing next to Luca. Like, he clearly was flourishing.

Teams understood what his value was while he played next to Luca. So it's not as if, you know, he was turned into. some, you know, some bum in the corner. Exactly. And the question for me is, well, why did he feel a desire to leave Luca, knowing where Luca's career is going to go and knowing that those two guys could have success together? I think maybe that's a tougher question for Luca fans or the Mavericks to kind of wrap their minds around in terms of, okay, well, what is he needing to do from a leadership standpoint? Does he need to commit himself more defensively? Or was this just a case

of Brunson wanted to go to New York no matter what? Because that's where his family ties were. I'm not sure, but I felt it like it was a red flag that Brunson wanted to leave. And I completely understand why the Mavericks would prioritize having a piece to replace him, right? Because Kyrie has a better handle. He's quicker off the dribble. He's a better outside shooter, I think, in a lot of situations, he's got more big game experience. I mean, there's a lot of ways you could kind of compare him to Brunson and say, you know, kind of in a vacuum or in theory, Kyrie is a better player. But, you know, to me, what concerns me is when you're looking at trying to get through that West Scotland. You're not going to have a single easy postseason matchup, right? It's going to be tough,

no matter who you play. Dallas learned that last year. I mean, second round, you know, they were on the ropes before they came back and beat Phoenix and then they go against Golden State and they just get run off the court, right? So stakes are going to be super high. Competition is going to be super high. Consistency is absolutely key in those moments. And unfortunately for Kyrie in the playoffs, you know, basically since 2016, the consistency aspect hasn't always been there either because of injury issues because, you know, teams start to key up a little bit more defensively. And so, you know, life is a little bit harder for him. He is pretty small. And so he, you know, he's able to get by guys, but, you know, length sometimes does bother him in the postseason. And if they don't have both

those guys going off, they're going to lose the series, right? And so I think I trust Luca to get his numbers on any defense. I mean, his second year in the NBA, he was going nuts on Kauai Leonard and Paul George and all those guys, right? Back when they were still like pretty nasty, filthy defenders, too. Exactly. And then I just wonder, okay, is Kyrie going to be able to maintain that high level of offensive scoring efficiency because they do have to make up for the defense like you've described. And I also think there's questions with kind of Jason Kidd too. It's like, all right, well, is this the, you know, what's he going to be able to show you in a postseason chess match, right? Like Steve Kerr ran those guys off the court last year. So to me, it's not all about Kyrie's just going to make the whole thing explode. There's other questions there in Dallas. But what we do know is they will lose a series if both those guys aren't scoring on all cylinder. and I just question whether Kyrie's going to be able to hold up his end of the bargain across multiple series against really high-level competition. And if they go out in the second round, then all the rumors are going to start.

Is Kyrie leaving? Lakers, sons, where's the trade? You know, everyone's going to start putting all that stuff out. And that could be very damaging for an organization. Man, I think so much of, and deservedly so, like, if you've actually parsed some of the words, some of the stuff that Kyrie said since he got to Dallas hasn't been exactly great. So like this idea to like new location, new lease on life,

that's not really what's going on. I think so much of his off court stuff and a lot of it justify gets parsed so intensely that people don't spend a lot of time actually dissecting the legitimate limitations to what he brings to a squad, especially as far as holding up, especially going into April, May, and if you're lucky, June. And I think you're very smart to bring up those points. To me, I think Kyrie wants to get paid.

If somebody pays him, he's going to be over there. I think he's going to be on his best behavior in pursuit of that deal, as any of us would be. If we had the potential to put $120, $130, $140 million in our pockets. And so I'll be fascinated to watch what they do as the season goes on. And, yeah, I'm interested to just see, I'm interested to watch this part of Lucas career where it's like, all right, we got you a guy. It's not a poor Zingis. And as much as we love Jalen Brunson, it's not a Brunson, certainly not a Spencer Dinwiddie. We got you a legitimate guy.

Let's see, you know, what you do with this new toy. So I'm really interested to see what Luca does going forward. Well, your point on Kyrie's contract year push is a great one. This is not a typical contract year, right? He's got to get his last big contract. He's not going to get another big one after this. And he's got to make up for that Nike money that just disappeared, that he just lit on fire, you know, with the, with the controversy. last fall. So if there's ever going to be a best behavior scenario for Kyrie where you're going to have

these motivations of like, hey, you know what? Like one last three or four year max contract payday will really make a difference in my life. This is the time. I would just say like, you know, if you're Dallas, do you want to be the team that even signs into that contract? Like it's almost too late. Like if he plays well, you're going to have to do it. You traded away Finney Smith. You traded away a future first round pick. Like you're kind of in a spot. where you've already sacrificed a lot of leverage in those negotiations. But, like, you know, really walking through step by step, what a three-year agreement will be like with Kyrie.

If all that money is guaranteed up front, I mean, just look at the last three years that Brooklyn went through, right? Look at the year that Boston went through. Hey, man, there's water under the bridge. You're describing water under the bridge. That water is still under the Brooklyn Bridge. There's no more pandemics or planemics, Ben. It's over. We're done. We're good. Let's keep it pushing. But yeah, I think they're one of the most fascinating stories going down the stretch. Like I said, I'll be watching that very closely.

And Ben, thank you, man, for hopping on today. I'm sure I'm going to see you this weekend in Salt Lit City. Tell the people where they can find your stuff, man. Yeah, like you said, Washington Post.com slash sports and greatest of all talk.com for the podcast. Thanks so much for having me on. I wish you good luck this weekend. I hope you have a better Saturday night than MacKlaug. Actually, I take that back. I hope MacMaclung has a better Saturday night than you was. Impossible. That means my Saturday will be saved.

Love, love, love. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to a Black History edition of Weekends. I'm your host, Big Was, aka Wazney Lambray. and I'm joined by a really tight, close brother of mine. I know I say this every freaking week, but it's true. This guy, man, former colleague at the Athletic, he is one of their best NFL writers,

does a great job covering the Las Vegas Raiders. My man, Tishon Reed, was going on, bro. What's up, Wes? How you doing, man? Appreciate you having me. Of course, man, of course. You've recently dropped a new endeavor. It's a podcast series called Between the Lines.

It's about race and the NFL. Very timely, of course, as we are in Black History Month, even though every month is Black History for you and die. Man, the first thing I want to ask you is what made you want to document this on a pod series rather than your usual chosen form, which is, you know, editorial or written? Yeah, I think, you know, it's something that, and we're seeing a lot of that this week, not the, you know, the NFL hiring cycle is done. And we see that there's only four black head coaches, the same number as last year. Airbnb didn't get hired again. So, you know, you're seeing a bunch of articles this week about, you know, the lack of black head coaches. And I just like, I just felt we rewrite that story every year. And at some point, even people who care about it start to overlook those and it kind of gets old. And so I wanted to talk about an issue that we do talk about every year. but do it in a unique way, in a different way. And, you know, also a way that brings those voices to life a little bit more.

You know, like, even just reading a quote in an article, it just doesn't hit the same as hearing somebody. Yeah, I've never really heard Doug Williams talk. Like, I was listening to episode one today. Like, it dawned on me. Like, I've never really heard this brother speak in, you know, any extended type of way before I listen to your podcast, right? Like, it always comes up, especially this month.

comes up like Doug Williams is the first black Super Bowl winning quarterback to start. And you know what's so crazy to Sean is like it didn't even, it's never, it's never dawned on me that the coaching carousal thing happens in the month of February. And the lack of like getting, like, you're just saying that right now just kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. Like it never dawned on me that this coaching process that's so fraught and been so studied over the years and remarked upon and reported on that it happens in the month that we recognize

the contributions of black people to America and football being the most American sport of them all, right? Not just that it was invented here in America, it's the most popular sport here. And at all levels, that's youth sport is the most popular professional sport. And so, man, that's kind of crazy. And so, as you were saying,

saying, you just felt like, you know, there's sort of this, the same article gets written. You move on. You went out, this is really deeply reported. Just from the first episode alone, the cats you got to talk to you on the record is pretty impressive, you know, civil rights attorney who commissioned the study about how black coaches perform against white coaches with Johnny Cochran. The black agent, dude, former agent guy, I forget his name right now. Ray Anderson.

You got a lot of people to talk to you. What's the process of who do you decide is important in telling this story? Yeah, so that was when I pitched this, which was back in fall of 2021, just to give some reference for how long I've been working on this shit. You know, one of my first tasks was just compiling a long-ass list of like, you know, who don't want to talk to? And it was every, because the series, you know, as you say, episode one is sort of gives a historical perspective for racing NFL. But from there, episode two is about the players.

Episode three is about the coaches. Episode four is about executives. And episode five will be sort of spinning it forward into the future. And so that's a lot of different, you know, hundreds of players, hundreds of coaches, executives that have, you know, contributed to the league. And so all the names that you would think of, you know, Colin Kaepernick and Mike Tomlin and Tony Dungy and et cetera. So there's the big names. but there's also, you know, a process of like I reached out to all of our, and that's one of the benefits of working at the athletic is we have a bunch of people

that cover a lot of different teams and have covered those teams for a long time. And so I reached out like, yo, who would be good to talk to that you've interacted with? And as pretty much everybody that works on our NFL staff. And so, you know, there's probably hundreds of people that I compiled a list of. And then from there it was just outreach and getting a bunch of nose, obviously a lot more nose than yeses. I think that's the tricky part about doing this through a podcast is there is no anonymous sourcing with a podcast.

Like they're going to hear your voice. You know what I mean? Like they're going to figure out like who you are. And so, you know, it's not just getting people to agree to talk about it. But it's like, oh, no, they're going to know who I am and this is connected to me. So like- Yeah, this is on the record. And when you have a topic like this, it's tough to get people to talk about it, you know, and timing and scheduling.

And so even over the course of a year and a half, it was just tricky to get people. I ended up getting over 30 people. We're still in process now. I'm still working on the fifth episode. So that number is increasing. But yeah, that was one. One of the more tedious, you know, parts of it was just getting those yeses, scheduling, you know, getting some people that backed out, you know, trying to convince them to come back. And so that was, it's tough with something like this, you know, nationally as you would expect. But, you know, I think that process, you know, sort of helped inform, you know, some of the things that I talk about in the series. Like, there's a hesitancy for a reason. Right. Right. Like, these people aren't just afraid to talk about it just because, you know, they don't want people mad in their comments. Like, no, they think that their livelihood can be in. if they say the wrong thing about this in public,

and it gets it back around to them professionally. And so that really, you know, says everything you need to know about how things still are. You know, we've made all this progress since, you know, the racial awakening in 2020 and, you know, they got all these inspired change and all these new rules. Oh, the Great Awakening? I saw you put your quotation marks.

You don't think America's changed dramatically since the Great Awakening of 2020? Surprisingly, things are the same. It's crazy. So, yeah, it goes to show like there's still a ton of, ton of ground to cover. I mean, we're nowhere close to get into a good spot. In NFL, obviously, as a country, you know, as a whole. So I want to talk to you, man, about something that most fascinates me about the experience of watching, consuming, caring about football. And especially in the jobs that we do, right?

Oftentimes, everybody understands that generally, especially in our country, there's this perception that the NBA is the Black League. And it's not just the people who make up the workforce of the central product. And we're not, we can get into front office and coaching, although that's much better in the NBA. I don't think it's perfect. But it's pretty good. But the players are black. Even though the game is becoming way more international, it's becoming way more cosmological. it's becoming way more cosmopolitan as you will.

There's this sense that the culture of the NBA is black. The NBA is a black league and I think it's because of the culture of the NBA. And an example I like to cite to people is that when the NBA All-Star game starts or NBA on ESPN or T&T or something, the music or the artist that's going to be playing is going to be some hip-hop shit. Right. when Thursday night football comes on or Monday night football comes on, it's a country music artist, which we all agree, hip hop is black, country is white.

But the actual labor of the leagues as by percentages is not that different. I'm pretty sure 60-something percent of the NFL is black and 60-something percent of the NBA is black, but there's sort of a cultural expression that happens in the NBA that is so consciously, you know, if not black, multicultural, where the NFL is not. And I think that speaks to a lot of the work that you were doing. And what do you think is undergirding that cultural expression of the NFL? Yeah, interesting yesterday, actually, I interviewed Richard Lapchick,

who he's a professor at UCF. Every year he puts together, it's called Tides Report, is basically a race. and gender report card for every league, you know, every major league in America. And he's been doing this since the 80s from New York. He played, he was a high school basketball player and ended up becoming friends with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And that kind of sparked his career in activism space. But when he first started doing those reports, you know, David Stern had just taken over

as a commissioner in NBA. And at the time, you know, I mean, the NBA was viewed as too black. Like people were like turned off by how black it was. I mean, this is 40 years ago now. And he said, you know, Stern wasn't trying to change that. He's like, yeah, so, like, we keep it. You know, keep it black. And that set a tone that even though, you know, the number of blackhead coaches

wasn't really there until, you know, recently in NBA and things that nature, the league was always black. And so it's not that he has more power than Roger Goodell has now, but the NFL has just never reached that level towards. the game and the culture surrounding the game and the way it's talked about, the way it's framed, the way it's presented is so black. And so it never really had that opportunity to sustain it because it just never existed. And so that's why, like even though Adam Silver is a different commissioner, he kind of kept that torch, you know, that David Stern said, I mean, when he pushed,

you know, for them to get their black coaching shit right, you know, a couple years ago, I mean, we saw it went from single digits to now, I believe, over half the league's head coached in NBA but, and again, it's not that he's not any more powerful than a gendale. And clearly, there's a bunch of racist NBA owners. Like we saw Robert Sarver and all this shit he was wound on doing. But he had a black head coach and a black GM. He's like, you know, we got some of the most progress. But see, that's what I'm saying, though, to Sean.

I think that's what makes this so fascinating and complicated to me. Because I think I think David Stern deserves actually a lot of credit that I ever wanted to give him for his stewardship of the league. And his understanding that like my players are not. going to stop being black, right? Whether I liked it or not, whether people, like, I have to market the product that I have. I believe in my product. And my guys are black, and we're going to figure out a way to make Americans understand

that this is an incredible product. It's a family-friendly product. And these guys are great, despite how you might otherwise feel about black people generally, right? And just a steadfastness in that understanding that. We don't have another choice here And we're gonna put our heads down towards doing that I think the NFL becomes a little bit different

In the sense that you know everybody knows this But the NBA has always marketed individual guys NFL has always marketed these teams Therefore the league And then you know To the extent that we're gonna market individuals They're gonna be quarterbacks who are overwhelmingly white Right and I wonder with that in that backdrop

like how do you get racialized issues to supersede the quote unquote shield and the brand? Like how do we get the NFL to, and I know that Roger Goodell is with it and he understands this stuff, but how do you get a collective of 30 corporations privately owned to understand this? I think you have to, you're not changing their hearts, right? We're not going to suddenly make these people care about this thing. You have to show them that it's good for business, which it is. And the thing is, like you said, I mean, NFL, you know, the faces of the leagues have always been quarterbacks and head coaches. That's typically how it's pushed.

And the NFL is so racist that like, they're like, no, black people can't possibly play quarterback. Like even in the NBA, like back when it was, you know, Bill Russell was getting. and, you know, all kinds of crap. They were still like, he's the best player in the league still, though. We're not going to act like he's not good. And then, they're like, no, you can't possibly do this. There's just no way.

That's why you see, this is 2023, and we just, for the first time, got two black quarterbacks of Super Bowl. It's 2023. The NFL got found in 1920. It took 103 years. You know what I'm insane it is? It's like if it's like if we got two black superstars

and NBA to face off each other for the first time this year. It's a crazy shit. Right. And so, like, they're, And we saw the ratings. I mean, obviously, you know, almost every year the football ratings are crazy. But this year I think it was the highest rated one in like five or six years or something that nature. So clearly black quarterbacks is not going to make people stop watching football.

It's crazy. And like, I don't think, you know, black people suddenly learn how to start playing quarterback or anything that nature. But I think seeing that, you know, seeing that, oh, wow, he's most of the best quarterbacks in the league are black, most of the highest paid quarterbacks in the league are black. the best quarterback bar none is Patrick Mahomes. You can't really argue it. I think the next step is seeing that reflected at the coaching level. And that's been the truth. Even like, I mean, they have eight by GM now.

That's a record for the NFL. They have five black team presidents. That's a record. And so you've seen it quarterback, executive roles, business roles. But that head coach role is still the one that they're just like holding on to. Just like I just don't think they can do it. Like you see Eric Bian to me this week, like we said, like the Eagles,

both Eagles coordinators got coaching jobs and they lost. Eric B. Enemy won a second Super Bowl and he still didn't get, you know, head coach an opportunity. And so I think that is ultimately what's going to have to happen is just seeing it in action. And not that we haven't. Like, you know, Mike Tomlin, you know, he's won a Super Bowl. Tony, Tony Dungey won a Super Bowl. So we've seen that coaches achieve it at the highest level, but it has to, the numbers of it happen and has to go up. But that can't really happen unless the owners are more intentional about, about their hiring practices and willing to let that happen. And so that's, that's the roadblock. That's kind of the

the strain that they have on the league. And then, I mean, outside legal action or like loss of money, which isn't happening. Like as much, I'm doing this podcast. I'm still watching NFL. I mean, it's my job. I cover the Raiders. But I'm going to watch football anyway. So I'm giving them that they're not losing no money as mad as I am.

And so, like, it's going to have to be legal action most likely, you know. And so that's such an arduous long process and takes so much time. But, I mean, it's been going on for over 100 years now. It's going to take time. And that's, you know, there has to be worse to do it ultimately. But I think if somebody does force their hand and we do get more black coaches involved and they want to have success, then I'll be like, oh, okay, well, I guess we can go ahead and do this then.

I'm still making $20 billion a year, you know, as a league. And then things are fine. And my net worth is going through the roof. And so I think that's ultimately what is going to have to take. So I want to let people know my whole stance on this, right, is that my thing with the coaching jobs in the NFL and the NBA, my problems are labor-related. So in the NBA,

when they had this problems with coaching and all of this stuff, like my thing is players deserve to have the most equity in the league, and if we're going to be given out front office jobs and coaching jobs and all of these other jobs, you know, ways to continue to take equity, out of the league, money out of, you know, what's generated by the league. I think those jobs should go to players first.

The player base, the labor force happens to be predominantly black. And so, so be it. I feel like most of those jobs should be black people, mostly players, because they're the ones who make the league what it is. They've built it. They've created it. They are the reason for being, period. So to me, it's about equity and a sort of shared ownership of the fruits that the game is able to provide and bear, right?

And I see no different in the NFL. Like, the workforce is predominantly black. And I think those jobs within the workforce should be permeated by outside of players by guys who played the game who helped build. this guys who, you know, like running backs coach, yeah, I don't have a problem with a dude who played three years, broke his freaking leg. You chewed him up, spit him out. Now he gets to continue to earn a living within the league. This is, and so that's my sort of position on it, right?

As far as how much I actually racialize their hiring practices, right? Like this idea that like these people are clearly so good at playing the game that they couldn't teach it or coach it or training. it is absurd, right? However, I want to take us more cynical tack to it, to Sean. What's different about the league product if the faces that coach it are black? To your mind, will anything fundamentally be different about the NFL? And if I want to take it even crazier, society at large by having,

because I know that's what a critic will say. what is fundamentally changed made better or worse or whatever you think by having more black coaches at the head of franchises? I mean, it can only make it better because restricting your pool of candidates for any job, no matter what job it is, you're going to end up having worse results over time. That's why you see so many head coaching jobs open every single year. Like, these guys aren't getting fired and hired every year. If y'all were making these great decisions, like clearly y'all suck at doing this.

Like there's like 10 teams that have figured out how to hire people the right way. You know what I mean? And so, you know, you're doing pretty terrible with this head coach and hiring thing anyway. I mean, so you might as well consider more candidates and get better. And I don't think it's not going to like the game of football is not going to change or anything of that nature. But I think the value of it and the real tangible life value of it is we can't underestimate like how influential the NFL is, how impactful the league is. It's one of the most successful businesses in the world. And so, like, if that business has diverse leadership at the coaching ranks, the GM ranks, the business ranks, ownership ain't happening because we ain't got that money.

But those other ranks, you know, decision-making powers, you know, have more black quarterbacks who are the face of the league, more black start. I mean, we've always had black star players, but having those black quarterbacks has a different level in terms of how the game is marketed. Like, they are the face. That's the closest thing that you get to having the NBA, putting, you know, superstars' names, and then the team's name is, like, in small print underneath it. Like, that's the closer you're going to get. And so if that becomes sort of this beacon for diversity, I mean, what excuse does any other corporation in America have not to be diverse, especially given the NFL's history of, like,

for over 100 years just being, like, awful. Like, like, not just, like, damn, I wish they had some more black coaches. It's like, no, like, it is terrible. Like, we have instances where they're, like, one or zero for, like, most of the league's history. And so if they are able to make a radical change to flip it to go into other direction, I mean, I think that could have, like, I mean, it's not fun to, like, solve race in America, but shit, it could get better. I mean, like, if corporate America, you know, embrace diversity and black people got more positions of power

and started making more money and increasing our net worth as a kind of a collective race, I mean, you know, that, that, that, could actually like help us, you know, as a people. And so I think people boil it down too much, like, oh, it's just football, you know, these teams are just hiring the best people to try to win games and all that kind of stuff. And like, yeah, every team's trying to win because that's how you make money. Like, I get that. But you increase your chances of winning by by embracing diversity and being a successful business by embracing diversity. Like, you know, I mean, Eric B. Enemy could be a great head coach and we might never find out. And throughout his career

insert X amount of teams have cycled through head coach, a head coach, head coach, and had a great one. I'm not saying, he could be bad. I don't know. I'm not saying, I'm saying. They're eliminating the potential to have a good coach. Like, you don't know until you try.

And, I mean, clearly the barrier is low. I mean, they hire these white coaches all the time with one year of experience or a couple years of experience. And so clearly the barrier ain't that high. So I don't see what they stand to lose by expanding their pool. It really can only help the sport. And in turn, if it helps,

the sport and then it becomes a trend and it can help, you know, the country as a whole. And so that's, and I also think the thing that people miss is like, you know, like you or me, like if we don't get a promotion or a raise or something that we really want it, like that shit sucks. Like I don't just like, you know, turn the page and just hop back into work the next day all cheery and happy. Like these are people. Like this stuff like, like impacts them on like a human level, you know, the same way. Like one of the most interesting interviews I had was Clarence Sheldman, who was a former charge's offensive coordinator back when they had Philip Rivers, Ladanian Thomas and was winning MVP's. They had like a top five offense every year. He wasn't

even getting interviews, let alone, you know, head coaching jobs. And after about five years of that, he was like, yo, I can't do this no more. Like he was like sick looking at himself in the mirror every day. I'm like, wasn't happy with life. Like it was like impacting him on a deeper level. So he retired. I mean, he was like in his 50s, which for a coach, it kept coaching for another 10, 15 years if he wanted to. And so like, this isn't just something these people can just, just because they make, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars, like, oh, wow, how could they possibly complain? It's bullshit to me.

Like, anybody, if you really want something and you're, like, passionate about something, which you have to be to be in the world of football because this shit is insane. Like, the amount of work that you have to put in, like, it's going to crush you. You know what I'm saying? Like, that could, like, affect your generation. Like, you know, not making a head coach a salary compared to assisting coaches. That could affect your generational wealth for, like, years to come within your family. So, like, it's not just football, you know,

And I notice always they always want the focus to solely be on football, but it's so much bigger than that. And, you know, we haven't seen, you know, the potential benefits because they haven't, you know, allowed it to happen yet. But I think if you look at a league like the NBA or some other businesses within America that have made that flip, that flip, you know, you can see that evidence start to come to fruition. Yeah, I mean, I would tell the NFL owners and, you know, part of it to me is that I don't know that these decisions are made as consciously as it feels, right?

Where it's just like, I don't need a black guy to be my head coach. I don't know that the owners at that level are literally doing that. Obviously, the results have borne out the same as if they were. But I don't know that they would be doing that. So I don't even know how you get people who are motivated by quote unquote winning. And more than winning, they're motivated by money. They're motivated by the money machine. They operate this thing as a cartel.

So even if you're the Jets and you never make the freaking playoffs, you get to enjoy hundreds of millions of dollars in profits every single year, no matter what. So part of me wonders what is the incentive in a business that's, you know, basically a monopoly as a football league, anti-trust as hell. and like they and part of and my man Ethan Strauss brings this up all the time part of the appeal of owning a sports team is that you get to treat it like a little fiefdom that you get to treat it like your own like you get to make whatever decision you want right and so if that's even part of this like I get to run this how I want

on top of the millions and millions and hundreds of millions that I'm that I get to earn or make, I wouldn't say owners earn anything, to be honest with you, that I get to make in profits. Part of me, you know, and I hate to be all defeat us about this. How do we get these people? How do you break through to somebody whose incentives are so not aligned with an initiative of racial equality in this sport? Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but I ain't ever met a rich person that don't want to make more money. You know what I mean? So that's the thing.

is like, you're going to make way more if you just embrace this. Like, I'm telling you. Like, imagine, imagine, imagine if they never let Patrick Mahomes play quarterback, dog. Like, potentially the best quarterback ever. Just, nah, go play wide receiver. Like, the Chiefs wouldn't be making nearly as much as what they're making right now. You know what I mean?

So, like, 100%. They just have to get it through their thick skulls that, like, this is only going to help you. And, like, they're not going to come across that, that, you know, revelation by themselves. I think they are going to have to be forced. Like it's either going to have to be, maybe as Brian Flores as lawsuit launched last year, that's still ongoing. Like maybe that grows and swells big enough to where it's able to force the league's hand.

You know, sponsorship dollars like we saw with the Washington team having to change their team name once they started losing or FedEx, I think was threatening to pool it. And all of a sudden they dropped the name after saying they wouldn't. And so they're going to have to be forced to do it. But, you know, I don't think they're, I think a lot of them are racist, but I don't think they're stupid. And so I think once they see it be successful, if they are forced to do so, then they'll get with the program. But it's going to have to be, they're not just going to get there by themselves. And I think another thing with that, the notion of, like, whether or not they are racist, I don't think really matters. Like, if you're, if you're not being.

I think we overrate the individual racial animus in these people. So I think we overrate the hell out of that. And at a certain point, it doesn't matter how these people feel. The right thing needs to happen. Whether they like it or not, I think about this all the time where it's just like people like, well, what's in their hearts? I'm just like, it don't matter. As long as people have to have to treat you fairly and with respect and with dignity,

I don't care whether in their hearts they have some pure love for me and my blackness. As long as they have to treat me as an equal human being, that's all that I'm really concerned about. And yeah, that's my feeling about NFL owners as well. Yeah, and I mean, it's because the thing is, like, even if you aren't racist, if you're not being intentional about promoting diversity, you might as well be because you're doing the same thing. Like, you're only helping support systemic racism that's played in America in the world

for centuries now. Like, you know, inaction is the same thing as being hateful to me. Like, and I know people don't like to hear that and they get all uncomfortable when they hear the racism word and everything like that, but it's true. Like that we, you know, and that's something that I think, you know, people as a whole in America were trying to drive home in that summer of 2020. But, you know, everybody, you know, they posted their black squares and they read a couple books and they talked to their black friends. But I don't think people are really living that. And so, but, you know, whether they, like I said, whether they care or not isn't as important to me as action.

Because, I mean, you even look back to basically what forced the league to start incorporating black players again. And I covered this in my first. So, you know, initially they, the NFL had black players and then they outlawed black players from playing. And even after they reintegrated, the league, you know, it only had, you know, small percentage of black players. It didn't really change until the AFL came around. And the AFL, like, it was founded by a bunch of rich white, like, people who were in the oil. Southerners. Oil from Texas.

Like, these were not, I promise you, these people were not like the shining beacon of, like, diversity and race. but where they go get them players? HBCUs. They're like, I'm going to get the best players possible because that makes me money. So it's like that is what led the NFL to get reintegrated to a higher degree. And that's why it's a majority black league now. And, you know, like those people didn't do that out of kindness of their hearts. They didn't suddenly realize it while black people are nice. I should probably get them a chance.

Oh, they did it for money. And so, yeah, I mean, like, would I like it if everybody that was NFL owner was a great person? Sure. But like, even if they do it for money reasons, at this point, it's just about the action. Like, do it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, that doesn't,

I'm not saying that absolves, you know, if they are racist or if they do bad things with their, if they have another business or several other businesses or whatever it may be, workplace misconduct, like with the Washington team or whatever. But at this point, like, your intent doesn't really matter as much as what you do. And so I think harping over that really is a waste of time.

And, you know, obviously the action isn't there either. But, you know, as I keep saying, that's going to have to be forced. Like, it's been 100 plus years. Like, this isn't suddenly going to, like, they aren't going to have a collective epiphany of 32 billionaires suddenly deciding to get right. You know, they've shown a step.

I want to get you out of here on this because anybody who's listening to this show as a general sports fan already knows what the Rooney Rule is. To your best explanation, why hasn't the Rooney Rule worked? I mean, it was never really intended to work. You know what I mean?

Like, you know, I talked to Hugh Jackson today, former Raiders and Browns head coach. And it's something that he pointed out was even once the Rooney Rule was created, like it was never put into the NFL Constitution. It was like, yo, you do this or are we going to fine you? And like the fine is like $300,000 or something. It might be more now, but that's what it was at the time. It was a billionaire care about $300,000? Like, like, that's going to stop them from circumventing this rule, like word.

you know what I mean. Like initially you did see some progress. Like, you know, but that was more so stemming from Tony Dungy. Like once he started having success with the Colts and won that Super Bowl, everybody wanted their Tony Dungy, you know, because they saw that was what was successful. That was when it was making the playoffs. And so they were hiring a bunch of people from his tree.

And we got up to seven black coaches in 07 after Mike Tomlin got hired. But obviously we've seen since then that wasn't sustained, you know, once we lost kind of that idol to look towards. And I know Mike Tomlin has kind of become this era as Tony Dungy, but it just hasn't been replicated in the same way. And part of that is because, and I must say, like, Mike Tomlin hasn't had too many black coordinators, you know, and his lengthy tenure as Stewart's head coach.

Tony has done, he had a whole bunch of them, you know, what I'm saying? So, like, you know, I mean, I'm just saying, I'm saying. So, like, that, I think that's, you know. Shout to my man Bruce Ariens, too, by the way. I mean, Bruce Arians. Who stayed with a black coordinator. Honestly, I think he hired more just within his buck's tenure than Tomah has

in his entire crew to steal this. And I guess, you know, there's a bunch of black defensive coordinators now, but we know what they're hiring. People are offensive side of the ball. And the only black coordinating the league right now is Eric Bion and me. There's only a couple black quarterback coaches. And so that's why it doesn't work. Like, you know, they don't care about that rule.

Like, they're doing Zoom interviews now. They're like, yeah, let me get these two black dudes on Zoom for 15 minutes. I can check this box and go hire who I really want to go hire. Like, you know, it's really a fangless rule. And so it's almost, it's almost completely irrelevant now. I mean, we see that in the numbers every year. And so something new is needed. I mean, obviously there's only so much, like the NFL can't literally tell the owners,

yeah, y'all got to hire somebody black. But some sort of existential threat, like, that's historically, that's always what it's taken with the NFL. Like when they reintegrated is because the Rams, you know, the stadium was owned by California and it's like, no, you can't play in that joint list. You got some black players. And so they got some black players. The NFL, they got some black players.

you know, the Rooney Rule. You know, that was Johnny Cochran, you know, after he... It was a class action suit. They was threatened with a class action suit with, like... It's like, bro, we got y'all dead to rights. Y'all treating black coaches less fairly than white ones. We take this to court. We take this to the Supreme Court.

We're going to cook your ass. And so they was like, all right, let's get in line. And so, yeah, I guess existential threat is the only way. And like you said, if you're... If your product becomes less viable, less competitive, less competent because of your ways of hiring, maybe then and only then will they change this up, man. Thank you for coming on today, to Sean. Tell the folks where they can find you and your incredible work.

And I got to say about your work, people don't realize this, but the absolute hardest thing that we do in our jobs is getting people to talk to you and then getting them to talk to you on the record. like writing and all of that, gathering info. That ain't shit. Getting people to talk to you is 90% of the job, period. And the amount of people that you got to talk to you for this project, to me, just shows how incredible you are at what you do, man.

And so I'm looking forward to this series, and I think people should check it out 100%. Yeah, tell people they can find you in about the series. Appreciate you, bro. Yeah, just follow me on Twitter. All social media is just at the show. Sean Reed. Like I said, between the lines, going to be coming out every Tuesday. It's on the athletic football shows feed and find it on Spotify. Shouts to my man, Robert Mays, man, Ringer

alum, Grant Land alum. He's a brother. He's a cousin. So shout's to Robert Mays, man. Yeah, shout to him for letting me, you know, sort of rent out a day on his space, you know, for the next month. He's one of the good ones. He's one of the good ones. Yeah, so the new episode coming out every Tuesday all the way through. March 7, you know, and later in March, you're going to put everything in one feed if, you know, everybody must to run through the whole thing at once. But, yeah, definitely come over, check it out. Let me know what you think.

Yeah, happy Black History Month. All right, my brother, I'll talk to you soon. That's our show for today. Shouts to Jade Whaley, the great producer on the ones and threes. She makes everything happen for us. Make sure you're checking everything out on the Ringer NBA feed, all the other offerings we got. Group chat, of course, with me and Varyer and Mahoney, real ones, the answer, you name it. Our new joint with Austin Rivers, make sure you're checking that out every single Friday.

So we'll see you guys next week. Peace.