The Ringer NBA Show - Ime Udoka, Robert Sarver, and Responsible NBA Journalism

Episode Date: September 22, 2022

Rob and Logan start the pod by sharing their reactions to the news of Boston Celtics coach Ime Udoka's possible suspension. They talk about how this news is being reported, the effect it will have on the team, and the lessons NBA journalists in general can learn from this situation. They are then joined by NBA analyst Amin Elhassan to break down the ongoing controversy surrounding team owner Robert Sarver and the announcement that he is selling the Suns and the Mercury.(20:06) Hosts: Logan Murdock and Rob Mahoney Guest: Amin Elhassan Production Assistance: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Call me sentimental, but to me, the most joyful moment in sports is the soccer goal. And when that goal happens at the World Cup, well, it's pretty good. I'm Brian Phillips. With the 2022 Men's World Cup approaching, I'm making a podcast called 22 goals on the Ringer Podcast Network. It's about 22 of the most fire emoji goals in the history of the tournament. We're going to have so much fun. Ringer NBA show, special edition, Thursday edition.

Logan Murdoch, Rob Mahoney. How you doing, bud? Weird? This is a weird NBA week, Logan. I have no idea what's going on. It's a scandalous, like pre-season, huh? It's a scandalous one. We're talking Celtics right now, but we got Amino-Hausen and a few talking sons for us.

But I do want to start with the Celtics. It's always funny when you have a plan of what you are going to talk about. and the night before, you know, the program that you're about to record commences, some shit happens. And that's exactly what happened during this time. We're going to talk to Amin. We had this whole plan to talk about it to Amin and

the Sons. And then a report comes out, a vague report comes out, that Emma Udoka might get suspended for the season. I think that was really just like, that was the report, right? That wasn't that the initial reporting of this story that honestly is still kind of fluid right now and we don't really have a thing so we're going to try to talk about it as best as we

can. But the story first started out as Emma Udoka is getting disciplined for an undisclosed transgression, right? And then we find out it is, we

find out that he was having a consensual affair maybe that this is all happening in real time. A consensual and intimate relationship. A consensual and intimate relationship. Thank you. That was reported by Shams of the Athletic.

But one of the stories that is, and I want to talk about how this affects the Celtics in a moment, but I do want to talk really quickly just about how it's being reported because it's one of those odd things where something that's being reported in real time. And I think that it's pulling up the hood

of like what we go through is journalists reporting. out a story, Rob, if that makes sense, where this seemed like the tip that you normally get for a story that's going to come out six months from now. You know what I'm saying? And usually the viewing public doesn't get that because there's a lot of things that have to happen before a bigger story comes out. Similar to what we're about to talk about what it mean with the Baxter Holmes ESPN reporting. That took months, even years in the making, right? And this just seemed like something that is going to play out in publicly when it didn't necessarily have to

because of outside factors. I wonder how much of that had to do with the specific timing here. And without seeing kind of the backstage of when reporters get those tips, when they start finding out key pieces of information, when those levers start getting pulled, like one way or another, a bunch of reporters were going to show up at Celtics Media Day and IMA O'Doka was going to be there or not. Right? So there's going to be a clear point of demarcation. at which something is going on. And I think the team could have gone like the, he's absent for personal reasons,

indefinitely route if they wanted to try to do that. But this story comes out. And it left, I don't know if you had this experience, it left so much air in the room. Like as soon as the report came out, my phone is blowing up with people just wondering what the hell is going on. Like just trying to connect dots,

trying to understand what this could possibly mean, trying to decipher this language. The word consensual was a trending topic on Twitter today. and that was about as thoughtful and nuanced a conversation as you would expect Twitter to have about that particular subject, maybe you should wait. If you have the bones of this story

and you're not prepared or not comfortable or not nailed down on exactly what happened, maybe you shouldn't put it out there because people will fill that void. Like we've seen that time and time again. And I really do think of, I think that this story is really, I don't know if we're in the moment right now,

so I can't say that it's like an inflection point just yet. Time will tell that. But I really do think this is just a manifestation of years and years of the culture of being first, right? The culture that we have to, if we get a little nugget of information, that we think is big and is going to be a splash on Twitter or on the headlines and all of these things. Well, we need to just report that and then we'll go from there. And then which leads to the rise of newsbreakers, right? Which that works when it's a transaction, right? It works when you're just a trade as it happens, right?

That's fine. That's just a trade or that's just a transaction or something like that. But when it comes to something as nuanced as something right now that we don't know about, but it becomes something that is potentially as big as this, I think we are getting a lesson that, like you just said, we should wait and see all the ramifications because as we're saying this is the day after and I don't even know all of the

answers of what's going to come out but all we know right now is maybe M.A. you know, had a he had, I can't even say it, right? He had it. No. The only thing that's on to the tweet is based on reporting is that he had a consensual intimate relationship without context.

Yes. That is the rub that we're in right now. That's what's going on right now. And that's why it's so confusing. Honestly, that's why I think that like, I hope that this is just something that is a lesson to where, yo, we need to get back to journalism chops, man. Because it's not fair to anyone and it's totally irresponsible.

It's a great point because, yeah, if we want to run down the list of what we know for certain based on this reporting, it's that that relationship with a female staffer of the Celtics happened. And it's characterized as intimate and consensual. there's a lot we don't know. There's a lot of things that the reporting would suggest are probable, right? Like, it's probable that he will be suspended for the season. There's been reporting that Imeudoka himself has considered resigning.

I'm unclear on what the traction of that is, but the possibility that he may never coach a game for the Celtics again is out there enough that in some of these reports, there's mention of who could possibly replace him if that is the case. So what do we really know? Like everything is still up in the air as far as the future of this story and what it means for for for Ime Odoca, for the Celtics, what it means for apparently every woman who's a part of the Celtics organization who, because of the vagary of the report, sleuths online are now trying to figure out what woman this could possibly be. And I think that goes to your point about not reporting this as if it were a transaction. Like this is not a trade rumor where you casually float possibilities of the women who could be involved in this story. Because, Getting pulled into a story like this, even when you're not actually involved in it, even if it's just people on the internet, those women wind up dealing with all kinds of toxic and destructive shit as a result of that. Like, these are real people's lives.

This is not the trade machine. This is real. You know, I'm not on Twitter as much as I used to, but I did take a gander to last night. And you have women's faces online, right? Unconfirmed. You know, we don't know what happened, but you have women's faces online from the Celtics organization that people are just, taking screenshots of people and just putting it online. We don't know if these women are married.

We don't know if that's just so irresponsible to do that. That's another thing that that is a, in the quest to be first, we don't think about that. We are putting people's lives at stake. So we as journalists have to be responsible in that. I think, and also another thing about this is this is someone from a league partner that is doing this, right? Like, there's also total ramifications on that.

And it's just a slippery slope on all these things. And I'm trying to, you know, tiptoe through this because, again, we don't have all of the answers. What do you think, very early, though, what do you think this will do for, I think, MBA journalism specifically going forward? What do you think? What do you think that, if you can't think of it, how do you think this might change coverage or how we see coverage? of the NBA in sports at large after that. I think we'll have to see because I think the problem with guessing at this story now and what we're going to learn from it is we've never seen anything like this before in terms of this kind of punishment for a coach for this kind of personal relationship.

And again, we don't even know exactly what that relationship looks like. That has me waiting in a big way for the other shoe to drop as far as the particulars of what happened here. And yet the reality is we may never get those details. We may never get that shoe to drop. We may never get total clarity on exactly what this situation entailed. And so what people take of it or take from it is going to depend a lot on their motivations, their particular shops and what drives them and their revenue, whether, you know, like whatever those incentives are, you know, you could see people spiraling in a lot of

different directions because there's no question. This is the biggest story of the day. People are locked in trying to figure out what happened. And I think in a very cynical world, that's winning. Right. Like, people are talking about the thing that you put out there. That's gross, I think, is probably the best way to put it. But that's the reality of kind of the internet climate in terms of NBA coverage.

We talked about this a little bit in the NBA meetings that we had in LA a couple, about a week ago or two weeks ago. And I talked about this with Simmons on the pod yesterday. I think, like, and it goes back to the quest to be first. But specifically in the NBA and also, you know, we're starting to see it in other leagues, though, there is a specific slant in coverage, right? There's never, because I think in the, I look at all sports, but specifically in the NBA, there is such a thirst to win Twitter or win the headline of that, that in a lot of times,

the coverage and the stories we write and also the ones that we read are pretty slanted. And it's one-sided. Like, what are we taught in journalism school to call the other side and be like, hey, this is happening? this whole thing seems like I got a call, I got a tip on something, and I'm just going to put it out. It seems really tabloidy in a lot of ways. And it's honestly very disappointing the state that we're in in this regard to where we're seeing the ramifications that we never really got to see because normally when we tweet out these stories, it's about transactions. I don't think we take it to account. It's one thing for someone to write a very slanted

Kyrie Irving article, right? And it's like no one really gets hurt on that in the public's eyes, right? But for something like this, when you write something or tweet out something very slanted without getting the other side, then you open the door for women to get screenshoted and their LinkedIn's or their faces to get screenshoted as, oh, did this happen?

it opens this the door for messiness in a way that it's just really not responsible. Yeah, and it's really the distinction between, as you drew it, actual tabloid style journalism and whatever it is that we are usually doing in the NBA, which is a lot of rumor mongering. It is a lot of hearsay. It is a lot of secondhand, again, connecting the dots of how players are going to be moving around the league as free agents or as trade targets or whatever that is. This is a totally different thing. And when you wade into this world, you have to be very careful.

with every step you take. To the point that, so we're, you know, we're digesting these reports. We now have multiple reports from multiple different sources talking about this story. I am not positive who would even be suspending in Mayo Doka because it says he's in violation of team guidelines. That's what the Robert Sarver report said about Robert Sarver was that he was he violated team guidelines regarding the bullying of his employees, regarding his treatment of the employees. That's why he was getting suspended a year. I mean, I'm guessing that this would be a suspension from the Celtics organization itself. But we don't even know.

We don't even know who would be adjudicating whatever it is that happens to Imio Doka about a relationship we know almost nothing about, save that a woman was involved and save that people are trying to figure out who that woman is. It feels like, and I'm just reading the sea leaves right now, it feels like the way it came out that, you know, I don't know how it got leaked. I can't even, I don't know, I don't know who leaked it. I don't know anything about that. But it does seem like, because you brought this up early,

If the course of action, you know, that I guess would have been the one of least consequence would be the team to get in front of it and say a personal reasons or something like that. It put out a statement. That did not happen. I don't even know as of this recording. Has Boston even put out a statement yet? I don't even know if they put out as a team. I don't even think they've done that. But I just, it feels like the league and this team got flat.

got caught flat-footed, and a lot of things came together. And it just, it doesn't feel like a good, it doesn't feel like a good day for the league right now. It's not. And to your question about the Celtics, the latest message from the Celtics official Twitter account is a retweet of a Paul Pierce stance about how much Malcolm Brockton is going to affect the team this year.

That's kind of where the team has been in terms of its official channels. And to be fair, there are often legal reasons about why teams can and can't say things at certain times regarding stuff like this. Maybe there is a cover of liability in terms of the Celtics saying or not saying something at this particular time.

But the reality is for people like us, for people who are in this world, this is a deeply personal story for the people involved in it. This is obviously a journalistic story like we're talking about for people who think about this stuff the way we do. It's also going to be a basketball story because a team that just went to the NBA finals is now out its head coach.

That is the thing with real actual on-court implications, as an uncomfortable as they are to kind of connect to this stuff. This is going to be tangible and visible in a very real and present way as soon as the season starts. You brought up a great point about the team aspect of it.

Not necessarily the organization aspect of it, but the team itself. Now, just on court in general, I had concerns about the Celtics anyway, just from my own things, right? Just like the Kevin Durant trade rumors just was like, how was the team going to respond to that? How was a team going to,

a young team, going to respond to losing in the NBA finals the way they did. Honestly, after the season that they had, remember, this team had no business in the finals if you looked at their record in January. You would have never thought it was one of the great surprises of last season, but there were a lot of questions on how they would build on that. How do you even, for a young group like this, who has been through a share of things, right? I'm not going to, this young team has lived like nine lives in this core.

but how does this team weather this storm where it seems because in a lot of ways it seems like well damn what more do you want to give throw our way like how can we get through this it's it's really it's going to be an interesting season for the Celtics on court with their players i mean we're really adding to the bucket of things that are just impossible to know at this stage because i think a lot of the questions about the celtics immediate future in basketball terms are going to be like does this shit matter to the players at all. Like, if you were someone who was in that locker room, who was deeply invested

in IMA O'Doka's message, do you care about this story? Like, does it matter to you that he did or didn't do whatever it is he did or didn't do? And they probably have more information than we do. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. I mean, look, they're in the building, whatever it is that was happening, I'm sure someone knows something about it, clearly, or else these tips or these advances in terms of the story would not have been made. Because most times, it's string back the hood. When I, what I've seen in around the league like the when we get the news and when it gets broken it's probably like two days later you know or like a long time the league knows it's happening before it gets leaked if that makes sense so I do think that like the players know what is going on for a minute well to your point Richard Jefferson obviously a former NBA player himself has been tweeting out you know some very you know some leading tweets in terms of kind of like the real truth coming to light in this issue. True sub-sweet. I'm going to tweet enough, but not enough to where I lose my job.

No, no. Just hinting at whatever it is to come. Again, I don't know whether Richard Jefferson knows anything about this or not, or if he's just kind of playing some part in this ridiculous theater that's happening around it. But the question of like how much this matters to the people in that organization is a big one. Because that was a team that did come together. It was an organization that did find like a connective tissue interpersonally. and this is a massive personal scandal,

like a personal level scandal. Again, it feels weird to try to connect that to basketball terms, but this is these guys' line of work. This is what they do. This is how they live. These are the people they are with for the majority of their year,

spending lots of time with on the road, at home, in practices, in professional settings, just out in recreational settings too. And so the idea that this won't have any impact on any of that, to me, would be naive. I think it obviously will. It's just we can't possibly.

quantify or understand any of that right now. And also, you know, M.A. for everything you've heard about him and his relationship with his players, it went, it was pretty deep. It was a pretty deep bond that he had, especially with the core guys and Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown. And also, you know, we always talk about Marcus Smart and how, you know, M.A., it was one of the rare times where a coach publicly calls a guy out and the guy just

responds and is like, okay, I'm riding with you. And we got to see that during the finals a lot, how much of a bond that this team seemed to have. And a lot of that was credited to M.A. And I think that's one of the things that, like, if he's gone for the season, man, that's a big deal for this group who grew close to him in a way that, you know, and sometimes seemed like they grew closer to M.A. than they did Brad Stevens in a lot of ways, right? and he was able to get something out of him during that last stretch that is pretty impressive. So to see him potentially being gone for at least a year, potentially, this is all

rumors at this point. That would be a blow. Whatever suspension he gets would be a blow. Yeah. I mean, especially the at least part. Like, I mean, there is that realistic possibility that just based on the magnitude of the way this story was reported and framed, and again, it's alluded to very specifically and explicitly within the text of those reports, that Imodukkah may not be.

the coach of the Celtics as a result of this, as a result of the kind of the chain of events that are going to progress over the next couple weeks and months. So, I mean, look, we're really bumping up against the limits of what we don't know and know here. Like, I think we, I think we have reached the line, but this is a massive story. There's no way around that. Yeah, man. And I was just getting to that point, man. I think we should get to a mean because I think we've said all we have to say about this. This is a very, the one, this is a very fluid story. And honestly, by the time this podcast come out, it could be much, much different. But thanks so much, Rob, let's get to with me. And we are back. Rob, we have a friend of the show. Meta Lark's, uh, Amino Hassan.

What all the sun's news, and I knew we were going to record today, all this sun's news I was popping off. Most recently, Sarver selling, uh, Robert Saver saying that he's, uh, Robert Saver saying that he's going to sell both the mercury and the suns. I was like, who should we get on to come talk to us? Because I did want to talk about the sons today. And I send of mean a text at like, I think of like nine something specific time, not knowing like if he's going to do it, right? I really just said shot in the dark. You know those old school like requests where you're just like, can you please do it? Let's do it. And he goes instantly, yes. And so Amino Hazid is here. Amin, how you doing, bud? I'm good, man. I won't lie. Like I've, I've been through

between yesterday and today, and that's not even counting in the last week where the news of the investigation findings finally came out. But yesterday and today probably have appeared on no less than probably 11 or 12 programs. So across all the galaxies, and I'm posting clips, and I was on CNN on Saturday,

and it's been crazy. But it's like the news yesterday definitely was different in that up until yesterday, everything I was talking about was very, I told you so, very kind of pointing out the hypocrisies of this man, Robert Sarver, and wondering what the league can do and what the league would do.

And instead, what we got yesterday was, this is good news. The people of Phoenix, I live in Phoenix, everyone's happy. I've never seen people in a, what people would call it, I guess, a swing state, politically, to be so unified on one thing. Like, get them the hell up out of here. Because no one really had any affinity for them. And this is just kind of the best possible news.

It really is. Are you guys shocked that we got here, though? Because I kind of thought the NBA was going to try to ride this out. I thought we might be close enough to the season starting that this kind of gets swept under the rug pretty quick. quickly. This is a pleasant surprise for me that we ended up in this place. So I have a, whenever, when I thought it, because I, when I got the news, it was like, all my walking in the morning. And I saw just a, just the ESPN update is just like Sarver's saying he's going to sell the team. And it made me think back to the Adam Silver, um,

press conference. The presser, well, it was the last week or a couple, a few days ago when I, I don't know, who knows time right now. Time doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't, it doesn't exist. But it made me think back to the Adam Silver press conference because just how it was juxtaposed, like the comparisons to Donald Sterling and Adam Silver and Robert Sarver, they're just going to just happen. And it made me wonder, because we don't know all the behind the scenes yet this story is far from over, but it made me wonder like if there was just some behind the scenes thing. Like if Adam Silver did this a bit more subtle way of getting Sarver out the paint than he did in the

Donald Sterling case. Because you remember in a Donald Sterling case, he basically said he's banned from the league. This is what happens. For life. He sells his team after that for life. And this is what I've been wanting to ask you. I mean, like, what were the differences and similarities that you've seen from this, right? Because the end result both was that the team is going to, I don't know, get taken away. But the overall conclusion that the team is going to get sold, right? So what

What are the compare and contrast those two situations for me? All right. So there's a couple of things. One was Donald Sterling had a demonstrated public past of racism. And not just like from people that worked for or with them in court, sued for racial discrimination in housing. Time and time again, very publicly, very flaunting of his ignorant racist ways. And everyone in the league knew it.

and it was a shock to no one who was anywhere near the NBA orbit about Donald Sterling. When I heard that audio, I was like, huh, Donald T. then did it again. Like, that was my reaction. It was like, oh, my goodness, how could any of this have happened? Like, I knew. Everyone knew. So there was a little bit of a shock, at least for me, that when people were like,

they need to do something about this, I'm like, they're not going to do anything. They've known this since 1983 or whatever he bought the Clippers. So there's that. and also the fact that we got them on tape, saying it on tape. Audio, for whatever reason, audio and video,

reigns supreme for our society right now. The same way that Ray Rice assaulted his wife, and we all knew that he assaulted his wife, and it was documented, and we read the report and said, oh, my God, that's awful. He got suspended two games whenever it was,

and everyone was like, oh, yeah, okay. And then we saw the video, and it's like, what? And it's like, there's nothing in the video that disputed what was in the report. It's just we saw it. Similarly, Donald Sterling being racist wasn't a shot. Hearing Donald Sterling be racist, not only about be racist in general, but we racist specifically about Magic Johnson, who's one of the most beloved figures in the history of American sports.

Forget about basketball or the NBA. American sports altogether, and dare I say American history. He's one of the most beloved people. And it happened publicly during the playoffs too. So yes, during, in season. So these are all things that I think conspire to to make it different from Robert Sarver. And that Sarver didn't have audio or video. He did have it in writing though, which I did not expect.

That was a nice little twist like, oh, okay. Sarver whose behavior was in theory behind closed doors of the organization, meaning people in public, people in court had no idea. this, perhaps even business partners had no idea about this. And then obviously happening in offseason, well, the investigation happening and getting the results in an off season during NFL week one, by the way, after NFL week one, it just ended. Like all these things lessened it.

Now, if you want to talk about the similarities, and this is a big one, Adam Silver never took the clippers away from Donald Sterling. Adam Silver banned him for life, which is a harsher version of what happened to Robert last week. Robert Sarver not allowed to enter any NBA facility arena or office. He can't even go to Olympic Tower to visit, right? He's banned from all NBA sites. And he's banned from being involved in any business or basketball decisions in the running of the Sons and the Mercury. They want to trade Chris Paul and Devin Booker for, you know,

Bones Highland, he can't, he has no say in that. The only thing they can't do, I think, is sell the team without his consent because that's in the charter of his ownership. But other than that, any kind of day-to-day business of trading players, signing players, firing coaches, signing endorsement deals or, excuse me, sponsorships, he has no say, no, uh, input whatsoever on that. That's what was going to happen to Donald Sterling.

He still was going to get paid his money off of whatever the Clippers made. And he still was the owner of the Clippers. He just wasn't able to participate in any of the stuff. How the Clippers got sold was that Shelley Sterling had Donald Sterling declared unfit, mentally unfit. And as a result, the ownership of the team reverts back to the trust and the executive to the trust of Shelley Sterling. So that was the ender,

and then Shelly Sterling said, I'm going to sell the team. That was the work around they did. It wasn't Adam Servers saying, or the owner saying, get him out of our league. Give me that team. We'll sell it and whatever.

It was a manipulation from the inside, so to speak. Same thing with the Atlanta Hawks. You got the Danny Ferry scandal where Lu Aldeng is the victim of just generic kind of stereotyping in a, in a report that's read out loud in a room where no one reacts,

including where the owner is on the call. They start doing some digging. They find emails where the owner's talking about, how can we get more white people in here? Right. And again, the league never said, what was it? Bruce Levinson, give us your team.

He just figured, eh, better sell. Same thing with Jerry Richardson in the NFL. Comes out to do the inappropriate things in the office. He came out before there was even an investigation. Like, the news report came out, and he was like, I'm selling the team.

So what happened to Robert is actually what's happened in every single instance where an owner has given up the team, at least in the last decade or so, which is, I'm not being forced to do this, but I'm reading the writing on the wall, and this is the best possible outcome of my actions. It feels like once you reach that level of wealth, of influence, of power in an organization, soft power is the only game.

Like, there is no forcing these people. people out forcing them to liquidate or sell properties like this. There is, like, honestly, I think the step that wasn't taken here, I mean, that you zeroed in on was the banning for life. Like, that is a meaningful thing to a rich guy owning an NBA team because the reason they own these teams primarily, some of them are money-making machines. Most of them is I want to look cool in front of my friends and I want people to ask me about the team when I go out about town. That's why they do this stuff. And if you take that away from them, I think that is a meaningful thing. And so that's the one step that they didn't really go to in the Sarver case.

I mean, the one year suspension I thought was incredibly soft in general. And it's a big reason why I think I'm a little reluctant to, in this kind of revisionist moment we're going through now, give Adam Silver too much credit for massaging and soft playing this thing. I mean, I don't see like a master plan here on his part so much as you have minority ownership expressing a strong stance. You have advertisers coming in and saying, we don't want to be a part of this anymore. And you have players speaking up in a very public and very direct way that puts a lot of pressure on Sarver himself. I don't know that you get a cocktail of public pressure bigger than that without the tapes. The question is, was that coordinated, right?

Was any of that coordinated? That's a fair question. I agree with you. We don't know the answer. Maybe it was. Maybe it's like, okay, I'll say this, and then I'll tweet this, and then the play associate will tweet this, and then PayPal will come out, and I'll come out to statement, and boom, here we are.

Or maybe it was, like you said, just like domino's falling one after another. But the question I had, I've been asking the last couple of days to everybody is we keep saying that Adam Silver levied the punishment that was, A, allowable under NBA charter, so the $10 million fine was the maximum, and B, you know, what basically answering to the beck and call of the other 29 owners. Like, yo, you send them away for 10 years. What if one of us get caught? You can't do this. I ask this question. If Adam Silver had autonomy, I can do whatever the hell I want. I answer to nobody.

I deliver punishments and you guys just all take it. Would have he had delivered a different punishment? I think it's two different times, man. I mean... I guess what I'm saying, Logan, to be clear, is did he deliver that punishment like, oh, my hands are tied? This is the most I can do?

Or is this what he chose to deliver? Well, I think the answer is that's a totally different job than the one he has. I'm not even sure what that job looks like, like supreme arbiter of punishment over... racist and misogynists or whatever that role is. The only job he's got, the only game in town is what benefits the team governors.

That's the only role these commissioners play in any of these sports. And so stepping outside that like, what does Adam Silver feel personally about this case? I don't think we have any way of knowing, but he's a, he's deeply a pragmatist. It's not about what he feels personally. It's not about that. I'm sure he's disgusted. Everyone I know who knows Adam Silver knows him personally says this guy exhibits the values of someone who would be absolutely disgusted by all this and embarrassed.

The question is the word that you said, he's a pragmatist. So even if I, Adam Silver, citizen, I'm just like, get this guy out of my sight, Adam Silver, the caretaker of the game, may not be able to react like that for several reasons. Chief among them, if you give Robert Sarver a disciplinary action that he does not accept and agree to. Then he gets messy. And he gets messy. We all get messy.

And now, even though I look like a champ at the press conference, ban them for life, we're walking around with scandal after scandal. This is out in discovery, or this is out because Robert said, I remember a conversation with the owner of the San Diego Conquistadors when he said, you know, whatever he's going to bring up, it comes out. And now we've damaged the league as a whole. we've reduced the value of all of our franchises. We may have reduced our viability as a TV product.

We've done untold damage because we wanted to look like champs at the press conference. I have a question though. I mean, when we talked, we brought about him, so we also brought up the Donald Sterling situation. If the Donald Sterling situation never happened, like never happened and there was no, we're going to ban them for life, the press conference and all that. How do you think would it be the same reaction or would it not be the same reaction

going into this in your opinion? because a lot of this is colored by a lot of this is colored by the Sterling decision because the average friend is like hey all they see is hey you banned this owner for life why didn't this other guy get the same energy part of me says you're right that because without that precedent whatever suspension or discipline this would have been would have been like oh that's what they do right part of me says people still would have felt it wasn't enough because we are at a place in society Not that any of this was ever acceptable,

because if it was ever set out loud, I think if this expose came out 10 years ago, for instance, way before Me Too, we'd still be appalled and say, you know, you got to get them up out of here. We'd still have that reaction. But even now,

it's more heightened because of all the social causes that have given rise over the last decade or so. So I want to say people would still be upset, but they wouldn't have something to point to, Logan, to say, we did it over there. Because that was amazing.

thing people say well you did it over there why can't you do it here well on the day to day and you're a good person to talk to you like all all things sons related and you read some of the testimony and and things like that like was sarver what kind of guy was sarver on a day to day for you when when you were in the building everything you would read what you read in the report that's who he was he was a guy with a sophomore sense of humor uh he was enamored with being one of the guys in the locker room, even though obviously players will never look at you that way. First of all, because you're not a player.

That's, you know, that's for all of us. That's for me. That's for you guys. They don't look at us as equals in that way. But also because you're the owner. So he would do his antics and make these crude jokes and stuff like that. Because in his mind, he thinks this is me connecting with the players. That's what they like to.

They like to talk about how much pussy they get. Oh, she was licking my balls. And that's how he thinks. And instead, what would happen, you walk out the room and play, man, we got a weird ass owner. Because nobody talks like that, right? Even when people talk about that,

they don't talk about it like that. Yeah. So now in the office, it was less trying to fit in because these were the cool kids he wanted to affiliate himself with. And it was more, I'm the boss and being an asshole to people

and being a bully. On basketball Illuminati, Tom Havishtrow and I interviewed David Bodson, who is the guy who was the victim of the pantsing at the ALS Ice Bucket Challenging. Like, that's typical of Robert because in this case, he's getting to humiliate someone he believes

to be lower than him. And by the way, David was an accountant executive who was 24 years old, and that's easy for everyone to say, oh, he's a low man on a total pole. I once saw Robert climb on the shoulders of a VP. I'm not going to say the guy's name. He's a good dude.

I think he still works there. But like he got on to do shoulders at a party. Like, and I could tell about to look on the dude's face. It's like the shit I have to do in this job. This wasn't him. Oh, that'd be funny if Robert was on my shoulders chicken fight style. This was a guy that was just like, I can't say no to the dude because he's got a renowned temper. I was going to ask you to ask Roger this,

but I don't think Roger was with the sons at the time. When Robert first bought the team, there was an incident where, I guess, you know, Robert sits courts or sat courtside 50-yard line. And our tunnels are behind the basket. And Robert's kids who at the time were, you know, eight years or whatever, they were little kids. They ran out and they were trying to run towards where the seats were

in the middle of a game while the action was on the other side. And they kind of like did this thing that kids do. They cut the corner. Sure. And the security guy was like, standing there, who wouldn't work in there since the building had opened or whatever. It was like, whoa, you guys got to run on the outside, on the outskirts, outside the lines.

You can't run on the court. There's a game going on. Robert had the guy fired on the spot. You don't talk to my kids like that. Wow. That's who he is. This is who he is. Now, some of the stuff he did earlier on with regards to just acting very erratically,

tempered as he hung around other owners and they learned, look, you can't do this, you can't do that. But in essence, the superiority complex, the bullying, treating people like shit, humor that's not appropriate for the workplace, and then most of all trying to, quote unquote, fit in in the locker room. All of those things are consistent and remain consistent over its entire tenure. Speaking of the superiority complex of Robert Sarver, I think we have to talk a little bit about this statement that he released in announcing he was going to sell the team because, look, I can't pretend I'm going to,

I don't have a lot of room in my life to get too mad about how rich people frame the bad things they do, but just as an artifact, it's a real piece of work. Can you read some excerpts from the statement, if you will, please? Let me pull it up real quick. It was pretty damning. It was pretty damning. It's just utterly defiant. Before you pull it up, before you pull it up, let me fill a buster for you.

Yeah. Every statement he's released with regards to this has been defined as shown you who he is. Every single statement he dropped, every record he dropped had the same type of track on it. Every single, the same album cut, the whole joint, huh? They just, you know, they change a little bit of a thing here, but it's like it's still the same thing. So I've got some of the older statements in front of me here. The first statement that came out when, remember, the story was rumored to be coming out. We didn't even know the stories that come out for the listeners that don't know.

When a news organization like ESPN is about to release an expose about serious shit, I'm not talking about so-and-so got traded. Like, oh, we better make sure. I'm talking about accusing people of the types of things that were being accused in this article. beyond all the checks and balances that a journalist goes through on their own to make sure the shit is right, the editors are double and triple checking their sources and trying to find other sources

to confirm what's been reported. And then, finally, it goes through legal because they have to make sure, real lawyers to make sure that we are not making ourselves liable to litigation. Because you said something made an offhand remark, right? So even if you hear a story's about to come out,

it doesn't necessarily mean the story's going to come out because there are hoops and that you have to go through. And that doesn't mean the story's not true. It just means like, whatever. So the Sons took the unprecedented stance of we're going to make statements before the story is even out. Sarver said, I am wholly shocked by some of the allegations

reported by ESPN about me personally or about the Sons and Mercury organizations. While I can't begin to know how to respond to some of the vague suggestions made by mostly anonymous voices, I can certainly tell you that some of the claims I find completely repugnant to my nature and to the character of the Sun's Mercury workplace,

and I can tell you they never, ever happened. First and foremost, I reject any insinuation of personal or organizational racism or gender discrimination. I despise language that disrespects individuals, regardless of race, gender preference, or choice. Such language has no place in business or at home in what I consider sons of Mercury families. I categorically deny any

and all suggestions that I use disparaging language related to race or gender. In the words of Moripovic, the lie detector test determined that was a lie. Yeah, update on that. There's an entire section of the report dedicated to his use of the N-word. It required a whole section breakout.

That's kind of where we ended up on that one. Right. So then the story comes out. He comes out with another one, right? Which, again, you already said out a statement about the story. Story comes out, you've got to put out another statement. So statement number two,

I continue to be shocked by the false reporting for Baxter Holmes. while there's so much that is inaccurate and misleading in this story that I hardly know where to begin. Let me be clear. The reporter, which is like not something that always happens. It doesn't really happen that much. Let me be clear. The N-word

is not part of my vocabulary. I have never called anyone or any group of people the N-word or referred to anyone or any group of people by that word either verbally or in writing. A mean side note, the lie detector test determined that also is a lie because he emailed it to the league, to the NBA.

So, I don't use that word. It is abhorrent and ugly, it denigrating, and against everything I believe in, the way I lead my personal and professional life makes that clear. Instead of reporting the truth, Holmes' stories based on misrepresentations from former sons, Coach Earl Watson

and other unnamed, quote, unquote, sources. Mr. Watson created an unprofessional and toxic atmosphere in our organization. He is clearly not a credible source. Despite hearing from witness after witness that disputed Mr. Watson's stories, Mr. Holmes completely disregarded the truth here. Now we're in the position of trying to just prove things that did not happen.

At this point, I would entirely welcome an impartial NBA investigation, which may prove our only outlet for clearing my name and the reputation of an organization that I'm so very proud of. So two statements, two for two of lies, number one, and two now. And the first one, he attacked the anonymous sources. In the second one, he's attacking people by name. Also, not just Sarver. and then he, I don't, we obviously can't, like, Jason Rowley.

No, no. He also had James Jones put out, the GM of the team put out a statement on the team website, refuting anything. At least Jameses gave him some breathing room. I don't know anything that would happen with Robert like that. I haven't seen anything. And in and out, Jason Rowley went double and triple down for his man. With respect to recent reports about a forthcoming ESPN article regarding Sarban our organization, I'll simply say that we are aware of the false narrative it contains and plan to respond accordingly.

This story is completely outrageous and false. It doesn't represent at all the Roberts offer that I've worked alongside of for 15 years. He's not racist and he's not a sexist. I will also say that the reporter in this instance has shown a reckless disregard for the truth. Again, he put himself so far beyond the line in this thing. So the investigation comes out a year later, which basically, reads like a blow for blow confirmation of everything that Baxter said in his story. How does Robert respond? I got that statement in front of me. Good leadership requires accountability.

For the sons of American organizations, that begins with me. While I disagree with some of the particulars of the NBA's report, I'd like to apologize for my words and actions that offended our employees. I take full responsibility for what I have done. I'm sorry for causing this pain and the errors in judgment are not consistent with my personal philosophy or my values. He's telling you he doesn't agree in part. I'd love to know which parts he didn't agree with. And he's telling you that these aren't consistent with his personal philosophy of values,

even though we're talking about 18 years of this. We're not talking about a two-year span. We're not talking about what he was like in the 80s. We're talking about right now. In the 21st century, he did all this stuff. I accept the consequences of the NBA's decision. The moment is an opportunity for me to demonstrate capacity to learn and grow as we continue to build a working culture

where every employee feels valued and comfortable. Now, I bring up that part because as I told you, I interviewed the guy that got pantsed. And when the story came out last year, even though it happened seven or eight years ago, Robert put out a statement saying, he apologized and that at the time, he was told it was inappropriate

and he's learned from that since then. You know what David told me and Tom on Basketball Illamini, please like, subscribe, rate review. wherever you get podcasts. He, to this day, has never heard from Robert Sarver. The apology he received, even though Robert admits that he was told at the time it's inappropriate. And that's been confirmed that he was told that at the time.

He never reached out. Not even a, hey, man, you know, it's all fun in games. Not even a bullshit letter on letterhead talking about, you know, you're valued. Sorry, but here's a $500 gift card to fries. which is a supermarket chain that's a sponsor, he never reached out. So this is a dude, and now Rob,

you've got the current, the last statement in front of you. You want to read some of the excerpts. This is someone who, through the report, through the witnesses, to the people that happened to, was disciplined and told at the time,

not disciplined, but told the time, you know, this is inappropriate, you can't do this and chose to never apologize or change his behavior in any way. Rob, read the statement.

My favorite part is this back to back right here. As a man of faith, I believe in atonement and the path to forgiveness. I expected that the commissioner's one-year suspension would provide the time for me to focus to make amends and remove personal controversy from the teams that I and so many fans love. But...

There's a but. In our current unforgiving climate, it has become painfully clear that that is no longer possible that whatever good I have done or could still do is outweighed by the things I have said in the past. For those reasons, I am beginning to process,

I'm beginning the process of seeking buyers for the Sons and Mercury. I mean, I just want to back up for a second and admire the apology triple crown of, as a man of faith, blaming cancer culture, and also I did this good shit too. That's just,

that's textbook stuff right there. You know, everyone ceases on that, right? because that one's easy, first of all, man of faith, I've never known him to be a man of faith on any level,

not even casually, right? Blaming everybody else and then saying, but I did all this good shit, right? To me, the important thing is he's saying

the current culture prevents me from taking the time to learn from my mistakes and make amends. That would be fine if no one had ever pointed out your mistakes to you over an 18 year period.

The assumption here is that, like I said, he's doing the, oh, it was the, it was the 80s, you know, caddy shack today would never get made, you know, like, does that make Bill Murray a bad person? No, he was just of the time. Because first of all, it wasn't the 80s. It was the 2000s. And second of all, you were told in the moment over and over again, you would tell every time use the N-word.

Pretty much every single time he said. You can't do that. Yep. Earl Watson did it. Corlis Williamson did it. The unnamed 2004 executive did it. Right? Every time he used it, people told him stop using it.

He's like, why can't I use it? Every single time when it came to the N-word is why can't I use the N-word? I-Roy-Mondi can do it. Yeah, pretty much. Something that we've like, something that we've heard, being you have heard just in everyday life at least a million times. Why can't I say it? He said, Drey Maggi Gras said, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger.

You can't say that. Well, I can't say nigger, nigger, nigger. That was the exchange in the report. And the report detailed that this is a guy that believed that workplace regulations and values did not apply to him. And when they were tried to be applied to him, he viewed it as a challenge. I can't say nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger is the words of someone saying, why can I say it? Why the rules different for me?

Or why is that the rule? It's peak like, why can't you say the N-word in songs? Why can you say it in songs and I can't? That's peak that. And he's bucking against all of it. He's bucking against all of it, which is basically the idea of, you can't tell me what to do.

And so you look at these statements, statements one and two before the article, where he's like, it never happened. You can't tell me, I did that shit. And I was like, yeah, you kind of did that shit. All right, but I didn't do all that shit.

And then finally, I got to sell a team, I guess, because this is who he is. Someone who rejects any premise in which he isn't completely absolved and perfectly honest and perfectly like innocent. This is why I'm shocked we got here, though. Like that, the stubbornness in insisting he had done nothing wrong, not just in these statements, but for decades now. I just, I'm not sure I ever could have imagined we would get to this place. I thought he would just dig in and dig in and dig in.

for a year. So look, it's a holiday as far as I'm concerned. This is, this is a great outcome. Before we get you out of here, I do want to ask just a more forward question, I mean, obviously the sons are and the Mercury are about to get sold. And when I think about, when I think about the Suns and the Mercury for that matter, just that organization, the Mercury have obviously, you know, fared better over the stretch. But how was it, I feel like there's a potential for a sleeping giant here, man, because you have Arizona, Phoenix, where people love to go. And I feel like under right ownership, this could be like a player. Not to say that they haven't been in the past, but every time I've seen the sons in the past, it's been, oh,

we could have done more. We could have had the sustained success of the Spurs, but something always happened. And largely, blame because of the ownership of Sarver, right? So with a new ownership in place that, you know, maybe is a good ownership. We don't know who he's going to sell to. But do you think that there is that for this community and also this team under new ownership? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to screw it up worse than Robert did because he did the double whammy of being an awful boss. And also, for many of those years, being a frugal boss. And you guys are good despite that in some instances, right?

Yeah. That, like, what Robert inherited in 2004 was a team that was already set up. Amari Stademeyer, Shaw Marion, Leandro Barbosa, James, Joe Johnson, and I'm missing somebody. Like, those guys were all already there. And Steve Nash and Roger Bell were on the way. Well, Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson were the free agent signings of, like, the first official thing that Robert had to sign off on. He didn't want to sign Steve originally.

He wanted to go after Kobe. And they did go after Kobe, and Kobe ends up, you know, returning to the Lakers in 2004. So he signs off on Nash and Richardson. And Joe Johnson is going into his extension right now, like what John Morant and Zion just are going through right now, or I guess they already got theirs.

And Joe Johnson, wanted something like seven years, $42 million or $45 million, and Robert wouldn't budge off of $42, which it came out to like, it was less than a million dollars a year difference on the lifetime of the contract. And the reasoning why Robert said,

I just spent $400 million on this team, and I just spent all this money on Steve Nash and Quinn Richardson, and I believe Stottomeyer's extension was, going to be the, no, it was further following. Sodomize extension was on the way. Marion was already a max deal. And so he says, no, I'm not budging on this.

He played hardball. If he's worth it, he'll prove it. And then we'll pay him next summer. Well, of course, Joe Johnson was an all-star. And the Atlanta Hawks came with a max offer with $20 million in cash to be paid by November 1st. And that point, Robert was like, yeah, we can't. We can't afford that.

Over $3 million. The max, I believe, was like 77 or something in those. So $3 million turned into $30 million. So this is him at the beginning. This is what he inherits. And then from there, it's just a slow erosion. The people who work here that Jerry Calangelo put in place, they're leaving, they're leaving, they're leaving.

The players that we got were not replacing with better players until the very end, 2012, I believe, is the last kind of remnants of anything, or 2013, because that's when Alvin got let go. So everything was gone by 2013. He, it wasn't them successful. He was successful. It was literally an iceberg melting until ultimately there was nothing left. You ask me about new ownership.

Obviously, it depends on who the new owner is and their capacity to spend. My guess is whoever's coming in is going to want to spend money to show. It's a sleeping giant for a couple of reasons. Everyone knows Phoenix is a very popular city in the NBA. Every time I go to Phoenix, it feels like you're selling me on it, every time. So many retired players live here that never even played here. Yeah. Like there's no reason to live here other than it's great cost of living.

It's close to everything. It's a major airport. Real estate is great. All that stuff, right? But here's the other things that are important. Number one, if you're buying this team, it's already a great team. This isn't the Timberwolves getting bought, right? This is a team that is competing for a team.

championship right now. Number two, the building is fine. You're not coming in. I've got to build a new building like Vivek when he came into Sacramento, right? Building was just brand new purpose. It was popping last postseason. It was pop. Right. Right. New practice facility, brand new practice facility, state of the art. So all of the capital investments that you would have to do usually coming in off of a bad ownership group, you don't have to do that. It's already been done. So all you got to it was like not treat people like shit and hire and get rid of the perpetrators

of that toxic culture and you're pretty much good to go and again a loyal fan base this is Phoenix's first pro sports team so they're very loyal this community is very loyal anything or in terms of attendance

or anything that's happened in the last decade or so it is a direct result of Robert Sarver it's not because people are fair weather fans in this city, which is very rare for a warm weather city to have actual diehard fans. It's a great case. But, I mean, as an ambassador of the city of Phoenix, are you prepared to come on this pod today and announce your bid?

Can you scratch together 1.8 to 2.2 billion for this thing? Are you ready for that? It's going north of two. Let me start there. It's going north of two for sure. Second of all, I can scratch. I don't know if I can scratch together, but I'm good at scratch it. I'm a sweat equity guy.

Hey, you know what? You guys bring the money and I'll put in the work. But the reality is... You got $100 on the thing. You got $100 on the news... On the two team. Spread it out every time. But the reality is this.

Everyone's talking about Bob Eiger. Everyone's talking about... I know locally people for long... For long time, romanticized Jerry Colangelo coming back and saving us. Saving us from all of this. Come back, Jerry, right? But Jerry's 79 or whatever. Even if he had the wherewithal to do it,

Like, it's not a really good. I don't know if he has a pockets. Yeah. Well, Jerry Kalanj, let me tell you something. Let me say, so, Jericho, get it together. Don't worry about that. All right, right, right. So, you know, and then people say, oh, what, but if, you know, Chris Paul retires and, you know,

all that's feeling good. My theory, not my prediction, but my theory is we're getting an off-the-board player, not players and player, but, like, playmaker in this regard. and it's going to be international. And whoever comes in is going to come in with the balmer. Here's $3 billion so that we don't have to do a bid. Or here's two and a half so we don't have a bidding process. Just give it to me.

Let's get this done and over with. I think that's happening. Whether it's from Europe or the Middle East or another Asian group, I don't know. But that's my gut feeling. Because again, because everything I said about this, this isn't a distressed property. This is actually ironically, even though Robert's done a lot of damage over the years, but the last two years, they've managed to, again, fix the building, get a new practice facility, and actually make the team good.

And that's important when you're selling because now it's a minimal amount of stuff that you have to do as a new owner. Yeah, yeah, fascinating stuff, man. Thanks so much, I mean, for coming on, bro. Friend of the show, anything you want to plug? All your eight. Oh, wait, wait, hold on. we have a story before.

Don't we have a story? Don't we have like some, don't you have to roast me or something? Yesterday. Yesterday. Are you teening him up to do it? Yeah. No,

no, because yesterday he said, I got to save it for the pod, right? Because you know what? Let me just, I'll start it off. I heard through the grapevine that Amin was talking big shit about me on,

not big shit, but he, he named drop me on his pod. And I got wind of it and I hit him back. And I hit him back on it. And he said he was going to bring it to the show. Do you want to, I just,

That's me teeing you up. I was definitely like, oh, yeah. Like as soon as he said, part of the 90% of the yupp when Logan said, can you come on the show, was about the service. I want to talk about this, right? But I won't lie, man. Like a strong 10% was like, I can't wait to call him Crown Camacho from power. I was so upset.

So he said, I don't know if Rob knows. Rob, I'll be sure. The legendary singer's son is on Power Book. Is it Power Book 3? It's basically a power spinoff. And he just got killed off of the series. And a meme goes in his review. RIP Logan, Merda.

So that does that happen? It's not just the way they look. It's also the way he dresses, man. That's a very, you dress very crowned Camacho like, man. Very colorful. I dress like an R&B singer? You dress like the son of an R&B singer. All right.

Well, on that note, We'll see you guys next time. Thanks so much for joining us. I don't get the plug, basketball illuminati. Oh, yeah, basketball illuminati and basketball alumni. Yeah, basketball illuminati. That's the podcast, Tom Haviswit. I do where we try to uncover what's beneath the surface level of reporting in the NBA,

give you the real, the stuff they don't want you to know about. Like, for instance, the exclusive interview that drops tomorrow on Friday, September 23rd, with David Bodzen, who's the son's employee who got pants by Robert Sarver. I told you that he didn't get an opportunity. Apology ever from Robert about it. He told us a lot more. You don't want to miss that. Basketball, Illamani, basketball, Illamonati, say three times.

Keep your third eye open. Keep your chakras aligned. Keep your chakras align on basketball and lollade. Thank you, Kyrie. Also, Cinephope, that's the podcast. Or Zach Harper and I watch movies that are poorly rated on rotten tomatoes and try to ascertain whether or not they're accurately poorly rated or maybe they did get a fair shake.

It's Sinaphob. It's produced by Anthony Mays. You get it wherever you get podcasts. And this week, We've got Hulk directed by Ang League. It came out in 2003. Terrible movie. Great podcast.

Give it a listen. All right to me, man. Thank you so much, man. That's been another edition of the Ringer NBA show. We'll see you guys next time.