The Ringer NBA Show - In-Season Tournament Check-In | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

Logan, Raja, and Beck are back to take one last deep dive into the importance of the in-season tournament ahead of the quarterfinals (02:00). Along the way, the guys discuss Tyrese Haliburton’s early-season success with the Pacers (11:00), the vibes of the Knicks so far (43:00), the Giannis and Dame duo thus far (47:00), how the Lakers should be feeling with their middling start to the season (50:30), and much more. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Howard Beck, and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league.

And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. What's popping? Real ones. Motherfucking Mondays, Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there, Howard Beck in the cut. In-season tournament quarter finals, we are here.

Howard Beck has a really, really, really nice feature that I'm going to read after this recording called the NBA in-season tournaments. Real test begins now. You know what? Howard, what was the gist of your piece? And what is the conclusions you have come to so far watching? the in-season tournament as we get to the quarterfinals. Hello, fellas.

Good to see you. So what's happening? So by all metrics that the league is keeping, right? Fan engagement, you know, use of the app, an NBA league pass, obviously ratings, attendance, all that. We've had seven nights tournament games pretty good so far. The story is about basically like this is really the true test now, right? Quarter final games, we're recording this Monday afternoon, quarterfinal games tonight, Tuesday night, then we get to the semis and the championship in Vegas, right? So this is what it really comes down to.

How engaged, how excited are the fans and the players themselves about this, about winning this cup that I have semi sarcastically snarkily referred to as a trophy invented five minutes ago? It's going to be awarded Saturday night. How are we going to feel about it Saturday night? That to me is the true test. Is this week's games, and the NBA, they know this too. Like this week's games, what the fan response is is kind of the key thing here. And ultimately, back to this kind of like existential question I've been posing for the last several weeks, which is how much stock, how much emotion, how much investment do we put in this NBA cup? What does it actually mean to win this thing Saturday night?

And the team that wins it, how will they feel about it? And will we still be talking about it the next day? or are we back to just like fake Zach Levine trades and, you know, obsessing over all the other, you know, usual NBA minutia of December. But talks to a professor at Murray State who has studied fan psychology for 40 years about the idea of like, you know, how do you get people excited about something you just invented. So that was fun. Just a lot of little interesting nuggets in there.

So yeah, go check out the story on the ringer. the thing that I have loved about the in-season tournament, at least as far, is the buy-in. Now, me and Howard are obviously in arenas a lot during the season, and we just assume everything is bullshit, right? We assume everything that even to start, we're trying to sell a tournament. But I have loved how the players have bought in, the coaches have seemed to bought in, and it is honestly, you know, translated into. great product on the floor.

And to your point, we're not inundated with constant trade rumors. It has been about the game throughout the most part. Now, it doesn't mean that trade rumors don't exist, right? It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that I don't believe

that that's not in the case. But to have basketball with some level of stakes, whether artificial or real, has been fun. I like that early in the season. Now, the ratings have gone up because of that, because there's something to play for, Rajah, what does it take to scratch the competitive itch for an NBA player?

What is the thing that you have seen that has been kind of done in this time for players to be competitive in a tournament that's otherwise a gimmick? Yeah, I don't think it takes much, not just for NBA players, but any professional, you know, athlete that's just, you know, your life. Life is based on competition. So, you know, you put a championship or, you know, an in-season championship on the line and it's not like you can opt out of it. So this is something that you're going to have to do regardless. Well, if we're here, well, we might as well be trying to win it. You know, and then obviously there is financial incentive to win it.

And depending on what you make, that would affect how incentivized you are to make the bread, I guess. But I think, you know, we talked about the last pop. LeBron can find someone in his family or in a charitable way to take the proceeds

even if he don't need them and do good with them. So I don't think it takes a whole lot. Roger, if you were on the team that won it on Saturday night, right? You're in Vegas.

You've just won the first ever NBA in-hefin season tournament. Let's call it the NBA Cup. Please, NBA just call it the NBA Cup. Just call it the NBA Cup. Just call it something. Anything without a motherfucking hyphen, please.

Roger, you're standing there on the court with your teammates. Confetti is, I assume confetti's falling. I don't know if there's champagne chilling in the locker room or not, like on NBA championship night. But like, what do you suppose you would be feeling about winning that and how long do you think that feeling would actually last? Would you want a banner raised at your home arena for it? Like, what are you thinking about a championship that you just won on December 9th with

with two thirds of the season or more yet to play? Like what? I'm very, very curious what the player emotions would actually be. There wouldn't be much emotion. I think, you know, you would obviously celebrate it because you'd be getting a trophy and they're going to have some sort of presentation out there. So when, you know, when that atmosphere is in place, there's going to be at least a modicum of celebration.

I don't think you go back into the locker room and pop any bottles. I don't think that's something that you hit the streets of Vegas later that night and just, party till the sun comes up. I don't think there's any of that. I think players will be doing that regardless, wouldn't it? It may possibly you're in Vegas. But yeah, I mean, you know, a banner? No.

I mean, that's just not. I think it depends on the team, though. I think it depends on the team. I do see a couple of teams in the league putting up a season tournament. A franchise maybe, but I don't think the players are conditioned to really give a shit about it right now, if that makes sense. like outside of the scope of just trying to win it because it exists. I don't think that they're like, yo, put a banner up for that shit. Like not a player at this point, maybe a franchise.

I was looking at it through that lens, actually, guys. Like, of the teams that are still in it, right? Like, the Celtics have been to the finals recently. Jason Tateman doesn't care about winning an NBA Cup. They need to get back to the finals and win a championship. This is a team with championship aspirations. LeBron James has already won, you know, four actual championships. The Cup isn't going to mean anything to LeBron.

You know, he's just to say, oh, I'm the, we're the first team to ever win it and that's another thing I can put on my ret he doesn't care about that but like the Pacers Tyrese Halliburton the Kings Dearen Fox and Sabonis like the Pelicans like the teams that have never won anything franchises that really haven't won anything of note in recent history or maybe ever maybe that's something for them like I'm trying to look at it through a positive lens here I think certain teams that are younger with younger stars it's like this isn't the goal but we're this. This is a sign that we're coming, right?

So maybe if I'm going to find the positive spin, I think it's there. But I really do think for like the veterans, the guys with championships won or championship aspirations still now. Yeah. I just don't see how it means that much to them. Maybe the Knicks. Maybe the Knicks in there. Yeah. Maybe.

Not as a city, but as a like as a franchise that hadn't tasted a whole lot of success, you know. I don't know. Howard can answer that question. What would Knicks fans think about it about a end season tournament championship? Honestly, guys, despite not the fan, not the fan. Despite everything that Nick's fans here have been through,

despite especially the last 20 years of what they've been through, I don't think them winning the Cup would actually, like, I think most Knicks fans would be like, yeah, this is fine, but when are we getting Jalen Brunson? more help because we don't want to go out in the first round or the second round, right? Like I... In Riverside. I don't think Knicks fans, it's funny because on the one head, they haven't won a championship

here in like almost 50 years, or maybe it's exactly 50 years. But I... The Knicks' exceptionalism is real, and they're going to look down their noses, I would think, most of them at an NBA Cup. I would think so. It's beneath this franchise, even if this franchise hasn't won anything in a very long time, because of the pride that is baked into Knicks

fandom and the Knicks itself as a franchise. And New York in general as a whole city. I would agree with that. There's a little bit of exceptionalism here. I don't think the fan, I don't think the New York fan gives a shit about that. But I do think as a franchise, you know, and as a young nucleus

or a relatively young nucleus in roster, like it might mean something to the building. I think the championship here, honestly in the in season tournament, it's honestly just attention and relevance, right? You talk about a team like the Kings who are trying to come into their own and actually make a mark in this league or the Pelicans for that matter, right? It puts them on a national stage, right? And it puts, it gives them some sort of relevance in the season. That's what the, I think if there was anything that was missing from the early season in past years non-in-season tournament, like it's that the casual fan isn't casual basketball fan isn't watching a pelicans team or a king's team or a Pacer's team this early in the season just because maybe they'll get one national game of season they're not following their trajectory throughout the season and this is a good way to market your players right and that gets into my first um that goes into the first matchup because i want to talk about somebody that is uh that is benefiting from this at least on a national scale and that's

is Tyrese Halliburton, who is a really, really good basketball player and is kind of coming into his own. Roger, did you see this from him, you know, in previous years? Did you see this type of performance and this type of player consistently, right? Like, he could be the fucking, the most celebrated players since Reggie Miller if he keeps on this trajectory, it seems like. What have you thought of Tyrese's game and where he can take the Pacers? Well, you know, honestly, like in his younger years, I'd keep it a buck, man. Like I wasn't like locked into watching Tyrese Halliburton.

It wasn't like that was must watch TV for me. But I was familiar with this game. And I think he falls into the category of player. We touched on Deerrin Fox the other day. And I gave him his flowers for his dedication to continue and to grow his game. And not relying on just the physical gifts and what clearly he could just do rolling out of bed, but like really sharpening that skill set. I think Tyrese Halliburton falls in to that category of NBA player that clearly is a workaholic,

like clearly goes into the gym all summer with the strategy in place and things that he wants to work on to continue to grow his game and he did that. But more than that, I think he falls into the type of player that just needs that opportunity to kind of, you know, stretch his left. legs and open up and have the responsibility. And I talk about guys all the time in the league that you might not know that, but if you gave them the ball, they could do some really cool stuff with it. If they had the platform to do that.

Now, I'm not saying they'd be Tyrese Halliburton because I believe he's a level above that, like a guy who does that on a bad team. I think he's a guy that could do that on really, really good teams. But the point is, if he doesn't have that platform, it doesn't have that kind of, canvas to just go crazy on. You might not know that. You might not know that he could do this, right?

And so, I mean, great for him. Obviously, great player. But, man, sometimes what your career winds up being is dictated by the situation you fall into or you don't fall into, the franchise that you go to or don't get to go to. And then the circumstances that follow, man. And it's just been a great situation for him.

on top of who he is as a player of the work ethic that he's had, being the guy in that situation, you know, has allowed him to grow in ways that I don't know that I saw him being a 26-a-game guy, honestly. Howard, when you see this Pacer's team, you're on the East Coast, you probably see them a lot more than I do on the West Coast. How do you, what do you think about their trajectory right now

and what they could be? They have Rick Carlisle, you know, they seems like they're building something right now in Indiana. What do you think about their trajectory going far? What are we going to see on this national stage from this team? They're fun. And by the way, one of the benefits, and Logan, you kind of alluded to it a few minutes ago about the tournament is this.

The Pacers only had, if I recall correctly, one nationally televised game on the schedule when the season started. So that was it. They were going to be on national TV once, despite having a player in Tyrese Halliburton, who is playing, I'm not saying he's an MVP candidate because the record. is not going to reflect it, but like he's putting up MVP type numbers. He's a really exciting player. They're a really fun young team. And they weren't going to get much national notice based on the schedule as done over the summer because they haven't been that good. Well, now they're getting that stage, right? As long as they last this week in the tournament,

this is one of those teams that absolutely benefits from the creation of the tournament. Look, they're just on the come up. So I don't think we should expect too much other than, wow, they're really interesting and they're fun. They've got the number one offense by a pretty good measure in the NBA right now, 123.8 points per 100. And yet they are 29th defensive efficiency. That's Roger's kind of team right there, baby. I was going to say, hello, Mike Dantoni's sons or Doug Moe Nuggets from back in the 80s.

They're just like that shootout they had with the Hawks where no one's playing any defense. That was a tournament game that everybody was all in awe of. Guys, they have the 10th best net rate. The Pacers have the 10th best net rating. They are a top 10 team in net rating despite the 29th rated defense. That's insane. The five-man group of Halliburton, Buddy-heeled, Bruce Brown, Obie Top, and Miles Turner is plus 27 per 100 possessions.

That would be second only to the Celtics starting five with a minimum of 150 possessions. They're really freaking good offensively, and that group of five I just named is really freaking good. And Tyrese Halliburton is on pace for career highs almost across the board. He's leading the league in assists 11.8. He's only 23 years old.

I think the sky's the limit for him and the question's going to be as it often is with young teams like this or where you've discovered a young star like okay, who do you get next? Who can you surround him with? Can they play any, like Rick Carlisle is a defensive-minded guy. How can they build a respectable, sustainable defense?

Because if they can at least get, you know, this will sound familiar to Raja, if they could just at least get to middle of the pack defensively with the way that they score, they'd suddenly be pretty damn good. Yeah. Roger, what's the most important thing that a team needs to have at this stage when they're building? And what are the pitfalls, right?

Because it's a balance you have to have, right? Because you see potential in some teams to get a little greedy and say, hey, we're going to just make, we're going to push the button right now. What's the balance you have to have? And I don't, I don't think Indiana is one of these teams, right? Howard has alluded to this in previous pods of how patient they are. Also, you know, just and how slow they can be to build something. but what is the most important thing that you need to have as a franchise in this time of your trajectory? Man, there are a few things.

I mean, perspective, obviously, like, understanding, you know, while it's fun and it's really good, like exactly where you are in terms of a championship window, you know, and understanding that is important. Then, you know, patience, if you deem that you are probably not a chance. championship team right now, but you're electric offensively, but there's still things, you know, that you're going to have to do to Howard's point, like maybe roster-wise. You know, I think you have to give a lot of credit to Rick Carlisle. I think it's easier in today's NBA to be a great offensive team and start there and, and get the buy-in from players on that side of the ball and then maybe build defensively a

little bit, like, you know, because he's always been a defensive first guy, right? I've never seen him coach a team like this, but I think he's evolved. So having some patience, you know, and then culture, having culture in place so that as you're bringing pieces in or you're tinkering with it to figure out what works around Tyrese Halliburton and whatever your core is, you could withstand someone coming in who culturally isn't maybe aligned. Or if they're not when they first get there, your culture is strong enough to get them in line. Like those things are important to a young team because as you, you know, you move pieces out. That chemistry experiment is changing, right? Like you're changing the amounts of ingredients and so on and so forth. And so that recipe could be off.

So you've got to have culture in place that keeps it steady and keeps everybody kind of understanding exactly how we do things wherever we are. Now, they're going to go up against a juggernaut in the Celtics, who, in my opinion, I think they're the best team in the league, the most deep team in the league. How should they be approaching this regular season? Howard, right? Because they are a juggernaut. They do have the best team. They do, they do have something to prove, which is something that we tend to see, I think, about the 0809 Lakers in this regard, where they

just want to mash on everybody. What is the most important thing that they need to keep into perspective at this stage and this season? Good question. In some respects, I feel like the Celtics, they're this veteran contender that is like always in it. They've been through a bunch of these long seasons before they like they know you got to pace yourself a little bit all this stuff but it's not the same team right like with porzengis and drew holiday there now i think that that's actually kind of re-energize them a little bit it's given them a little bit of different look and feel so it doesn't just feel like all right we fell short again what do we do different this time um and drew holiday is there with championship experience uh poor zingis just brings a whole bunch of new elements that

this team hasn't had before obviously he's been he's been banged up as missed a few games recently. But I think the interesting thing and the credit to them right now is here we are on December 4th and they have had some injuries already. But they're not pacing themselves. They're not like playing this as a, oh, we're one of those teams that we know we're playing for May and June. So they're on pace for like 64, 65 wins, which is starting to be unheard of in this era of parity, right, where you just don't run away from the pack. I think you're right, Logan, they are the best team in the league right now. I mean, to be determined over the next, you know, 60 more games, but they're off to the strongest start by record and by appearance and by everything else

you could assess. I think I mentioned a minute ago the ratings for somebody starting, or these five-man units. The Drew Holiday, Derek White, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Chris Stap's, Porzengis unit is plus 28 per 100. that's pretty good. So I like where they are. Obviously they got to get Porzigas healthy. Al Horford, still good. Still good.

You make it, Roger want to get a 10 day. Every time Howard sees Al Horford stats, he just goes out in the back and just shoots 700 jumpers. Man, you can't walk for five days after that. Roger, what are you at this?

stage. And it's a difference, a variation of the question that I had with Indiana. But at this stage, Howard alluded to how the Celtics are just got a bit of an oph symptom, right? And they're not letting their foot off the gas. And my question to that is, why would they? They haven't proven anything. Well, how important is it to keep your eye on the ball at this stage when they have, they have a lot of playoff experience? They also have a lot of experience losing in the playoffs. So when you have this new blood, how important is it up to it to be to not get rest on your laurels and get fat on your laurels? And be like, I mean, we'll be fine in the regular season. How important is it to just keep your foot on that? Well, it's important to keep to keep things

like in perspective. Again, I'll use that word because, you know, you can mash on everybody. And as long as you're not celebrating, you know, breaking the record that is whatever, Golden state's record right now and then exhaling, like, you're fine. Like, as long as you realize, like, we're going to just mash on everybody on our way to a championship. But some teams, you know, you typically see it with younger teams. So I don't know that Boston falls into that. Like, when they're just coming out of the gate, they just want to prove to everybody,

they're a best team in a league. And once they get regular season best team in the league, there's like this celebratory exhale. And they come out and they fumble the bag in the playoffs, you know? And so as long as there's perspective, I'm fine with them keeping their foot to to peddle and just night in and night out, you know, mashing on people. But I come from the camp of, you know, if I had to air on one side of the other, I would, I would err on the side of like, look, let's play our best basketball leading into the playoffs.

Like, I believe the NBA season is a very, very long season and very rarely do you see a team just wire to wire it and like, and they're playing their best basketball in in November and again in June. Can you dig what I'm saying? Like they might be winning games, but in in November and in June, but they might not be playing as well in June as they were in November. Like you typically, you typically, for me, would want to be like, you know, we're winning games because we're really good and we got it figured out.

And we're just, we've been around this block. But man, we really start hitting our stride kind of later in the season going into the playoffs. That's what I would like, you know, in a perfect world. but if you're telling me Boston is just that locked in, they got their eyes on the prize, which is the championship, they can make sure they get the adequate rest and still win all these regular season games

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We talk about the ebbs and flows, and I want to go to the West Coast now because I'm going to talk about the game that I'm going to tonight, Kings Pelicans. But when you talk about the ebbs and flows of a season early on, I always think about the Pelicans Howard when I think about team meetings that are actually That worked, I think? That worked. That worked. Team meetings at work.

What? What the hell is going on here, man? One of a few. Very few. I'm cautious to, I always have cautious optimism when it comes to the pelicans because I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Howard, are you waiting for the other shoe to drop with this team? Or is it, is it, they finally righted the ship? I mean, riding the ship there.

is I think two things. One is, like, just having Zion healthy for the entire season or most of it, that would be riding the ship, right? Like, that would go a long ways toward the Pelicans actually being the team that we've thought the last couple years that they could be. He's played 17 games, so he only needs 12 more to equal his total for last season. I don't mean to laugh. It's not funny. Injuries suck, and he's been through a lot. But, like, his career high is 61 games in that 20-21.

season. So like, I think that's the one where you're holding your breath all the time, right? Like, just, just let Zion Williamson stay healthy for an entire season so we can see what these guys actually have. And, you know, look, to that end, like CJ McCollum just had another scary collapsed lung incident. That's the second time for him in the last couple of years. So he missed a bunch of games. So the part one of the Pelicans to me is the, they just have to stay healthy because they've got stars who, who are hurt a lot. And they've had a bunch of role players who have been her, you know, Trey Murphy just got back. The part two is, okay, if we get a nice, solid couple of months with Zion Williamson, C.J. McCollum, Brandon Ingram, Trey Murphy, the entire cast available, what's the chemistry actually like?

Because I think the curiosity about this team for the last couple of years, or at least ever since they got C.J. McCollum is, what's the distribution of the offense? It's not just shots, but ball handling, right? Ingram's great with the ball in his hands. CJ is kind of a combo guard who operates with the ball in his hands. We've seen point Zion, and he's really good at that, and I think he's averaging around five assists a game. How do they manage that through the course of a game? How often do you just have one or two of those guys out there? Zion has already talked about how they've had team meetings where it's about trying to just be part of, you know,

the parts being greater than the sum and having and finding his place. it without overdoing it. And I think to his credit, Zion Williamson, to me, from the games that I've seen, doesn't look like he tries to force it too much. And you could given his talent, his standing, being a number one overall pick from a few years back

and all the games he's missed, it wouldn't be surprising at all to see him wanting to just like try to make up for a lost time and really force it. He doesn't do that for the most part. So like this is a team that I think at full strength has potential to be like top 10

net rating top 10 offense top 10 defense like they've got the fundamentals are there they just have to stay healthy so in the abstract I'm still really bullish on them it's just kind of holding your breath all the time Roger what is a you got two Jim Z kids a few Jim Z kids

what is a team meeting like in 2020 is it like a Twitch stream or some shit like what it would I don't I don't listen I don't know me I don't know that the language would certainly be that we couldn't really, you know, decipher. But, you know, I think all of those, you know, look, if you come out of a team meeting, I would say this just to echo what Howard said.

If you have a team meeting and you fall in the category of teams that that team meeting was really, really productive, then you have the ingredients to do something cool. Like, you have the pieces in place to be able to do something cool because typically those things don't end well. Like, it's a mess. And so I would just say that to what Howard just said when he said he's really bullish on them if they can figure it out and everybody gets healthy and stuff like that. If you come out at one of those team meetings regardless of what it sounds like in there and it's productive and you guys are moving forward in a positive way, then you've got at least the right stuff in the locker room. Well, it's the biggest thing that they needed to get out of that team meeting or get get right.

more than anything, was a partnership between Ingram and Zion Williamson. If you look over the last few games, you know, they, if you look at the offensive rating when them two guys are on the floor, it's among the best in the league, as opposed to a month ago when Howard was on this program talking about how, you know, it's terrible. It may be unsalvageable. Right. What have you seen from that partnership? And how do they, like, how do those two guys coexist?

And how does it, how does a team meeting help with that? Because they've been doing really well since they have gotten together and said, yo, this is what we do, this is what we don't do. How do you fix those intricacies in an hour-long meeting amongst friends? Well, I don't know, but I think the onus coming out of a meeting like that is going to be on Zion to probably make some slight concessions in terms of what he's trying to prove. and the time that he's trying to get back, which you can't get back anyway.

And so, you know, I got to give him a lot of credit because that's not an easy thing to do to be, you know, the number one pick, miss as much time as you missed, be just ready to go and prove everybody, you know, prove to everybody that you are what you're supposed to be

and then be asked to kind of balance playing with like a Brandon Ingram who's going to score a lot and a C.J. McCollum, you know, when he's healthy that has the ball in his hands. And that's not, that's not always an easy thing. And he's done it pretty well, at least since the meeting,

had they figured out kind of how to make that work. And so what is said in there to get that to happen? I don't know. But I do know that the dynamics with that team being, you know, relatively stable, at least personnel-wise, on the court and Zion being the piece reintegrated into that.

It kind of falls on him to be the guy that's like, okay, I can make this work. Okay, I see it. And I'm mature enough to kind of, understand it and do whatever I can do to make this work to give us the best chance. And he's done that coming out of that. So you got to give him a lot of credit. Let's go to Macriman. Where they, the Kings seem to, they're trying to use this season as a big one, fuck you to the

rest of the NBA for doubting us last year in our record, which, you know, I stand by all the criticisms that we all shared. But this team is looking to take the next step. And I think they're using this in-season tournament and all the things of the relevance that we said of getting on a national stage. I think they're trying to use this stage to show America that they want to get to a championship level, at least status, right? Now, whether that happens remains to be seen. But what can, you know, Howard, you've been around the league for a long time. what can a platform like this do for a team like the Kings with aspirations that are pretty huge? I don't know if they're going to be able to reach those aspirations, but they at least want to get there.

I'd be tempted to put them in the same category with the Pacers except the Kings had their breakthrough season, right? We went through an entire season of beam lighting and everything that we got to get you a golden one to see the lighting of the beam in person. It's pretty great. It's pretty great. If I finally get to a Kings game at the new arena that I've never been to, it is no longer that new. Can I light the beam just by showing up because it's like... I mean, you got clout and sack. I think you can like the beam, Howard.

I think you can do it. They had that epic, epic playoff series against the Warriors, right? They're Northern California pseudo-rivals. I say pseudo just because these teams have never been great at the same time. But, like, that was awesome. So I feel like the King's coming out party kind of already happened. And I think to the extent that this week might matter to them, like I don't dismiss it entirely.

Like the King's raising a cup on Saturday for, again, a franchise that's never done anything. Also, it might be one of the franchises that raise the in-season tournament banner. I'm just saying. I will say back during when I was covering the Lakers and, you know, here it was like, it's the Shack of Kobe. They're winning championships. They're raising banners.

And like the Kings were the first team that I noticed had raised like a Pacific Division banner and I went, oh, oh, that's... There's that famous video of Shaq, like, pointing up at the banner at the Pacific Division banner, and he's, like, he's feigning fear. Like, he's like, oh, oh. Yeah. It's, I'm not, I'm not big on banners that are, like, if you make,

like, at least win the conference, I don't know, like, division banners, in a, in a league where divisions, nobody even talks about divisions, nobody cares. So, no, I, yeah, the Kings would, all due respect to the Kings, great for franchise. They might raise a cup banner if they win it. They might. And listen, fine. They haven't won anything. They're a young team. They are on the rise. They have a promising future. They need to learn to

defend. But it would be, it would be a moment for them. It would be a moment for them. And those fans are as passionate and as invested as any fan base in the league. They deserve a little joy. I was happy for Kings fans last season that they finally got to have a season like that. And this would this would be kind of building on it. But again, like I, you know, the day after the cup is done, you know, everybody's going to be talking about playoff positioning. What have you seen from Deerey Fox, Roger? What do you like?

Everything, man. What do you mean? It's electric. And do it is, do it is, I mean, I mean, first of all, it's the perfect, it's the perfect offense and kudos to Mike Brown for, for, for just unleashing him. And, you know, we talked last pot again about how more well, rounded his game is than when he came in. And so, you know, I just, I like everything he does.

I like the pace with which he plays at. I like the, I like his ability to keep his defenders off balance. Like, you know, his, his ability to create has gotten better. And so you've just seen a guy kind of mature and grow into it, into just a fantastic NBA player. And I do, I do think it means something to Sacramento. I do think it means something to like the deer and foxes. When you guys asked me, like, if I'd be celebrating after a cup win,

I mean, no, but I think a team like that at the, at kind of the place where they are as a franchise, I think that, I think that doesn't mean something because I think they are one of those teams. You know, when you ask me about the Celtics, it's out there like, you know, we're just trying to prove it to everybody on any given night. You know, hopefully they too understand and keep it in perspective,

what the ultimate proving it to everybody would be. But, you know, they're at there on, in their arc, they're at a place where I could see that cut, meaning more to them than some of those other teams in the quest for it. You brought up Mike Brown, Raj. And I want to stay on this really quickly because it reminded me of when you said about, we talked about Carlisle, Rick Carlisle, and the adjustment as a coach to be able to,

you know, facilitate growth and a side of the basketball, a side of the court where you're not really known for, right? Like Mike Brown, we all know, is a defensive-minded coach. In fact, it probably irks the shit out of him. right now where the kings are defensively. But what about the, what credit could you give and what does it take for a coach to be able to? A complete overhaul of the way you see the game and the way you're committed to coaching it. Like it does.

I mean, it's a complete philosophical change from one end of the spectrum to the other to go from, you know, a defensive-minded, probably in that realm. you're looking to slow the game down and grind it out type of coach to like, yo, let's go. Let's get up and down. Let's run. Let's get as many shots at the basket as we can get. So you've had to completely change your philosophy. And I'd just say, you know, Mike DeAnneutony used to say that, you know,

only one team's going to win a championship. And if you're going to potentially fall short of that, at least let's be fun to watch and be exciting, you know. And people kind of laughed at that. And I, you know, I'd be like, yeah, I can dig it. But the reality of it is you'll get dues to. keep wanting to play for you if that's your style. Like, dudes want to do that.

They want to get up and down and run and get a bunch of shots up and score. When you're just preaching defense and it's not winning, I mean, a practice that is a defensive practice by nature is a grueling, beat you up, meat grinder of a practice. So if you're out there doing that day in and day out and you're not winning, you're going to lose people quickly. Like, if you're playing an exciting style and you're getting up and down and boys are getting to do what they want to do and maybe you don't get over. the hump and you don't win, you don't lose people nearly as quick when that's your style.

You know, so I give both of them credit for, I mean, Carlisle and Mike Brown for being able to make that adjustment. I think, you know, I don't mean to sound like an old curmudgeon, but I deal with kids, you know, every day. This generation of kids, it's harder to coach them in that defensive mindset way. You know, because that is, that coach is a MFer. He's a in your face, tough Jerry Sloan, want to fight you type of dude. And you can't handle those kids like that now.

They don't respond to that. So like, you know, kudos to them. I got a quick question for Rajah on this, actually. Because I was thinking about this with the Pacers, and it's the same thing with the Kings. Like these are both like supercharged, really fun, offensive teams that both have defensive-minded coaches who have not really been able to make an impact on that. And so far. So the Kings are their 19th in defensive efficiency right now. They were 24th last season. Mike Brown made a big deal in preseason about wanting to change that about making them a good defensive team because that's all they have to do. Again, if the Kings are just a middle of pack

defensively with their offense, they're onto something. So I want to ask you this, Raja. Is team defense, good team defense about a hustle and grit, these cliches we like to throw around as media and fans, be coaching and scheme or C players who are actually good defenders. Like if you're going to have a good defense, is it about the coach and his scheme? Is it about this idea that it's just got to want it more? Or is it about having players who are actually good at defending? I think it's a combination of coach and scheme and wanting to do it. I think the least important thing is having great defenders. I mean, you can have a great defender out there. And if no one's behind him helping him in the right way, you're still going to get 50 scored on you by a better offensive player.

So, like, I really do think it's about having some sort of scheme in place and then getting the buy-in from players, which goes into the willingness to do it to try to execute that scheme, right? And, no, we might not have the greatest two defenders on the planet, but we got a bunch of dudes that are committed to making these rotations. and whatever our philosophy is, they're committed to doing it, provided the philosophy sound. And I think that's where defense, you know, where good defensive teams live.

It helps if you got good talent defensively, but I don't think that's a requirement. Roger, what's an example of a team that didn't necessarily have good defenders but was a great defensive team in your eyes? Do you remember any of those? Ah, man, you're putting me on the spot. No.

Like, I don't, I don't, I don't know, man. I mean, the early part of the Warriors run, I think everybody was shocked by how good they'd become defensively. Even when, even before Steve Kerr took over, you know, Mark Jackson had gotten them to be a really good defensive team before Kirk came in and kind of energized the offense. But like that was a team where you looked at them as the young,

that's fair. Young Clay. Yeah, but they also had like a, they had a Bogie. They had a, they had a, Draymond, who was going to go down as the history. It's like, and Iguodala. And I had, Drayman wasn't that guy yet. and Igadala came along somewhere along the way?

I don't know. I remember that being a team that surprised people. They weren't full of guys that you were like, like the pistons. Like when you think of the Detroit Pistons, the Rib Hamilton,

Rashid Piss, like there was a bunch of great defenders on that team. You know what I mean? Like they were defensively just sound and physical and guys that would lock you up individually as well as buying into the scheme.

Like Golden State didn't look like that on paper. They didn't have a bunch of guys that you were like, yo man, we got to figure out how to get him off of X, Y, and Z because he'll just lock him up. They didn't have that. Exactly.

And I guess when you asked me that, Logan, it kind of flies in the face of what I just said, but I really believe in having coached younger teams and stuff like that. And I don't think you have to be hella talented to defend. You just have to really care about it and put, you know, put, like have some pride in it. And yeah, you got to be in the right spots. And your coach's philosophy has to be good. But man, if you'll just care about it and really try. I think it can overcome some things, man.

Let's go to New York. What's the vibe of the New York? We alluded to it earlier in the pod, but Howard, you're on the ground. What's the vibe around New York, around this team? How is the garden in a couple of times you've been there? How do they feel about this specific team? I think they feel the same way about it.

They felt the last couple of years. Far be it for me to ever try to speak for Nixon. fans. But I think we're getting to that point if we're not already there where, whether it's the organization itself or the fans, it's kind of that, okay, now what? What's next? All right, they've been good. They've been respectable, like, to their credit, under the, you know, since Leon Rose came in and brought in Tibbs and they've made some good moves and the Jalen Brunson signing ended up being spectacular. But now what? Because I, I think it's safe to say.

If you ask people around the league, like there's pretty strong consensus on this. They've kind of hit their ceiling. Like, this is who they are. Their team that's going to win somewhere in the mid to high 40s, maybe hit 50, and they're going to go a round or two in the playoffs, and that's it.

They don't have the top end talent to compete with Boston, Milwaukee, Philly. And now you've got other teams that are like jumping up into that zone, right? Like the calves have kind of fallen off for the moment, but they've got a lot of high-end talent. and the magic are now on the rise. And, you know, the Pacers, it's premature, but they're coming. There's just, and the heater still sticking around and stubbornly just stay in that, in that, in that, that range of the top of these.

So, like, where are the Knicks and all this? Like, where, where is the path forward? Because Brunson and Randall are probably about as good as they're going to be. And unless there's an eventual RJ Barrett leap or somebody else, like, Roger waiting for that RJ Barrett leap. Roger is waiting for that RJ Barrett leap. Listen, the bottom line is they've got that big pile of draft picks

like a bunch of other, like not a bunch of other teams, but like they're one of those teams that's like waiting, waiting for the next disgruntled star or waiting for the next opportunity. And until then, they're kind of treading water. That's the worst place to be in the middle, right, Roger? It's a tough place to live, man. I mean, you're just going to be, I mean, yeah, going into a season knowing that your top, your top end is probably second round of the playoffs is tough because it's hard to really get super excited about anything at that point. And that's, you know, that's just, you know, they, again, not to take anything away from, like you mentioned RJ and I love RJ, right?

But I'm not, I mean, I know what RJ is. Like, RJ is a piece, you know, on a really good team, like a piece that fits. your number three or four, you are in great shape. Yeah, he's a solid player. Like, that's a nice NBA player. But you're going to need, you know, you're going to need something else to get you over the hump. But yes, the middle is a very tough place. He's going to be like, he's going to be a Chris Middleton in like seven years.

Like a Chris Middleton now? No, Chris Middleton from like the championship level team. Oh, like what? All right. Yeah, that's what are going to be. I will say this, because you asked about how Nick's fans feel about the state. Knicks fans really love this team. Like the ceiling might be a little bit lower than anybody would want.

But like the grit of this team, like it's a very New York team. The way they win games and they can be really frustrating. Julius Randall drives Knicks fans crazy. And there are times where he dominates the ball too much. There are times when Jalen Brunson, frankly, might dominate a little too much. But they don't have a lot of other places to go with it. But I think in general, like the grit of this team is, you know, very appealing to Nix. fans. So like, they're, you know, it's, it's a really popular

next version of the Knicks. They just not, you know, there's just not a lot of reason to believe they're going to go for. Anyways, playing against the bucks where, who have gone through there, you know, ups and downs and Rajat always says, shut up, Logan. It's too fucking early. Stop fucking saying that this is a referendum on the season. I apologize. Roger curses at you a lot. What? What? I mean, I said a couple curse words today. Yes, I did. Yes, yes, you did.

Are we, Howard, are we finally in a place where we can be comfortable where the bucks are and what they're going to be at a point in time, or are there still questions lingering out there for them in your eyes? I think it's the same questions. The Lillard Yannis lineups, and it's still early, and, you know, this team's been banged up a little bit. But I think I got this right. The two-man combo, Lillard and Yonis, is a plus 4.8.

net rating, which is kind of meh for two superstars. However, those two plus Beasley Connettin and Brooke Lopez is plus 24.8 might be in limited possessions. Obviously, they were slow out of the gate for a whole bunch of different reasons, Adrian Griffin's defensive schemes and needing to kind of revert back to what they used to do under Buddenholzer, some injuries along the way. They started five and four. They're nine and two cents. And the two losses are to Boston, who's great.

great in Chicago and overtime and that was kind of ghastly. Crowder's missed 11 games. Middleton's missed four games. Middleton's still been, I think he's still on a minute's restriction. Like the pieces are there. I still have, you know, I still have concerns about their depth and just kind of the defensive sag after swapping out holiday for Lillard. But I'm not overly concerned with them.

Like I think this team at full strain. is right there in the thick of it in the east. Like, I think they're fine. What do you think, Roger? Are you on the same page with that? Yeah, I mean, clearly they got to get better defensively. Like, we'll make no mistakes about that. Like, they have to figure that out and have to figure

out what works for that group. But when you have, when you have Damian Lillard and Janice, I'm going to, I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt and figuring that out. Like, you're already playing better. Things are moving in the right direction. Guys have been in it out of the line.

up, I give you the benefit of the doubt. But to be a championship level team, they're going to have to get better defensive. They're going to have to continue to make strides and figure it out. Like when they were at their peak, like they were a really, really, really, really good defensive team. Obviously, Drew Holiday is not there anymore, but they have to find a way to be good defensively, not average, but good. You know, one of the thing that strikes me about this in-season tournament, or at least as we get to the end, it has been a boon for the league, obviously because of it a play. But also the fact that you could have any level of Janus in there, Boston in there, in Vegas,

and you get to have one or two of this next matchup. You can either have LeBron or KD in the finals in Vegas there at some point. Which leads me to the last matchup, which I'm excited to talk about. Can I just critically point this out since I'm Mr. Negativity on the tournament? Let me just point out real quick. All right, all right. Now that we're at the quarterfinals of the tournament, we have, we do not have the reigning MVP, Nicola Yokic.

We do not have Steph Curry. We do not have, excuse me, the reigning MVP, Joel Embed. We do not have the defending champion, Nicola Yokic. We do not have Steph. We do not have Luca. We don't have Shea. So there's like a lot of star power that is not in the quarterfinals and beyond here. So yeah, there's a lot.

Like if LeBron or Janus makes it to the final, I think that's really good for the league. One of my other curiosities is what happens if we get like Pelicans, Pacers. think that can happen, right? Everyone's leaving Vegas. It's going to be interesting. It's just, neither of the finals teams made it, right? The Nuggets and Heat are neither of them are in it now. I don't know.

There's just, there are some, when it's the playoffs, we talk about the star power and the best of the best going against each other in, especially May and then June. And in this one, this is the nature of it, right? Group play, now knockout rounds. whatever. Like, there's a lot of just variability here. Like, you just don't know how it's going to come out. It's not necessarily the best rising to the top or the stars rising to the top. And as I was just noting, like, a bunch of them are not in it right now. So just wanted to point that out real quick. Going into this game, Howard, Kevin Durant is played really, really well. Like, one of the best

offices of seasons of his career. I, it's just incredible. As I saw, there was a play against Rogers' sons where I think it was the first. I think it was the first in-season tournament game where he gets a three and he shoots it over two guys and gets knocked down and it goes in. And it's like, what the hell? Like he's doing this. I don't know.

What is he, 35, 36? Rob, what have you seen from KD? And how does that bode well for your sons? And how do you feel just how do you feel about your Phoenix sons, man? Championship contenders still after all these years. How do you feel? they got some stuff to figure out obviously you know it hasn't helped that that the lineup has been really inconsistent through to injury and they've had guys in and out it's they haven't really

ironed out what that chemistry is going to look like offensively and that's that's you know their strength so if we're not going to have a full picture on what that looks like I think I'm going to have to reserve judgment I still think that when healthy and when firing on all cylinders offensively they're going to be they're going to be a problem now I will admit that defensively and depth-wise, like there's some issues there, but that's a lot of offense. What I've seen from KD is just a level of efficiency that's pretty incredible and remarkable for a guy at this point in his career

coming off of the injury that he had come off of a couple years ago. I mean, I would just say, again, in a day in an age where people think they have to do so much with the ball to just get a shot off, I mean, watch KD. Now, I get it. He's 6-11, and there are some things that he could do in terms of shooting over, people that ordinary people can't do. But I mean, just his game itself is based in real efficiency.

So, like, what he's doing as a score is really cool to watch. When you see the Lakers, Howard, I'm going to ask this question before we get out of here. Is there a fix with the non-Labron minutes or should we just like chalk it up to? This is just what it's going to be. And this is the Lakers downfall for all it's worth, even how deep they are. is there, where do you see them at this point of the season? And I guess I'll do a bonus question to that. Is this going to be the roster that we see in May, in April, late April?

Like, where do you look at the Lakers at this stage of the season? I feel like they're on borrowed time in some respects, right? Like, LeBron and Anthony Davis have played like all but one game. Like, they've been healthy. They've been pretty good. But this team is 12 and 9, which is fine. But, you know, and like when you start saying, if you start trying to put up the caveats, like, oh, well, they haven't had Gabe Vincent much. Okay.

If Gabe Vincent is the key to this whole thing, then you're in trouble anyway. Like, Gabe Vincent's a good player and great pickup in the offseason. He's only played four games. But like, that's not it, right? If you're talking about they just need more minutes for, you know, new defensive ace Cam Reddish or Max Christie or whatever. Like, all right, yeah, there are ways they can probably improve themselves. defensively with the way they put together the rotation. But yeah, they've got some issues offensively,

despite having two of the greatest offensive players of the last 10 years. And in LeBron's case, of course, one of the greatest offensive players of all time. But he's turning 39 in a couple weeks here, and it is what it is. They're 24th in offensive efficiency. There's not enough out of the DeAngelo Russell, you know,

Austin Reeves, Torrin prints, you're just not getting enough out of that group. So is there a consolidation trade to be made? Is there, you know, is there,

like the favorite rumor of the summer or not rumor, the favorite bit of speculation long has been like, well, Kyrie and the Mavericks, that's a marriage of convenience. They were the one team that could pay him

and needed to pay him or needed him. So they paid him over the summer, but is the Luca Kairi thing really going to be the way forward for them? But they've gotten off to a person,

pretty good start. And so you figure they're probably sticking with the plan. But that was, that was one that was like, it's not even like a, yeah, it's one of those you just kind of keep an eye on. If things went badly for both teams between now and the trade deadline, is that a possibility? Maybe. But if it's not him, like, who are you going to get? Who are you packaging DeAngelo Russell and a future first and some other stuff with to get who? But yeah, they, need more shot creation. They need more scoring punch. No, I mean, but not a loss, not a lost cause, but needs help.

Cause needs help. Cause needs help. I've been trying to tell you all needs help. I was really ready to jump on. I was jumping off on a deep end with the legors to start the season. I was, I was pretty bought in. I was there. And now, I mean, it's not that they're not a good team.

I know it's strong. They are a really good team. I'm just like, this is not sustainable right now because they're playing for April in May in June. And when you do that, in a perfect case scenario, they need to be winning games, weirdly to say, without LeBron and Anthony Davis. They need to be blowing out teams.

And the perfect case scenario, they win 53-something games. And they have like two or three blowouts a year where LeBron is getting ice on his knees in the beginning of the fourth quarter. And that's just not happening. That's not going to happen. needs to look convincing, man. Like, it needs to look convincing.

The product out there needs to look convincing, right? For them to, and it just doesn't. I mean, they're getting by, but like, you can look at it and say, hmm, yeah, I don't, I think we're going to need a little bit more than that. The 360 layups are nice, though. He's remarkable. Like, that's remarkable. Oh, my God.

Yeah. There have been like seven plays from LeBron this year where I'm like, no one else can do that. And he's 38 years old. Yeah. It's been amazing. He's been amazing. But yeah, it is all, like,

at some point, it's inevitable he and or Anthony Davis are going to get banged up and they're going to miss a few games or a week or two. And what are they during that time? What are the Lakers without them? And can they – it's still the same thing, right? This group, as it stands, if healthy, in mid-April, all right, they've got a shot to do something. I'm not sure how far it gets them. But you've got to think they're looking for reinforcements along the way. And that is how you play the game.

That has been another edition of Motherfucking Mondays with Howard Motherfucking Beck. Housekeeping. Me and Raja and some special guests are going to be in Vegas on Wednesday at the Jimmy Kimball Theater. Make sure you get your tickets if they are still available.

That is at the link, the Jimmy Kimball Theater in Vegas. Doors open, I think, at seven, show at eight. come tap in with us, man. Come holl at your boys. You know, I can't wait to see you, Roger. I cannot wait to see you, bud. I wish I could say the same. All right, well, fuck you then.

That was in another edition of motherfucking Monday, so we'll see you in Vegas on Wednesday, and we will see Howard next Monday. Tap in all the shit. Ah, bye. Must be 21 years and older in President Select States.

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