The Ringer NBA Show - Instant Reaction to Damian Lillard's Trade to the Bucks | Group Chat

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos give their instant reaction to the Damian Lillard three-team trade. They give their thoughts on what Lillard looks like on the Bucks, whether the Suns got better, where Jrue Holiday ends up, and much more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to Group Chat. We are back, not only as a podcast, but for the second time today, because our friend Damien Lillard finally got traded after months and months and months of negotiations and rumors, which means one thing. Rob, hit the siren. There we go. So we recorded an entire podcast, breathlessly talking about the various teams that were jumping into.

and Lillard Mix. Would he go to the Raptors? What about the Sixers? All this other stuff. Ultimately, he gets traded to the Milwaukee Bucks in a three-team deal that also sends Yusuf Nerkich to the sons. The sons got into this trade after trying so hard. Wow.

I can't believe we're here. Wise. First blush thoughts. What do you think? The bucks for me are right there with the Nuggets his favorites to win the NBA. championship this year. And of course, this is with all the necessary caveats, major injury notwithstanding.

I put this group with anybody. Their biggest problem over the last few playoffs, and I would argue even when they won the championship was half-court offenses in the playoffs. With Damien Lillard, that's not going to be a problem anymore. Drew Holiday goes out in this deal along with, you know, some of their other role. players, but Drew Holiday has been a problem on offense in the playoffs. He's been bad, many,

many for large stretches of a lot of playoff series. And Janis just, you know, great as he is, has not been able to pick up the slack in past playoffs. And I think the addition of Dame Lillard, what he brings as far as shooting on the ball and off of it, playmaking, which I think he's severely underrated at as a playmaker, it's just a bone. There's no way to put this, the idea that they still have all of this size with Brooke Lopez and Janice and Chris Middleton, I think their defense is still going to be pretty stout. There's no way to look at this as anything but an absolute home run for the Milwaukee Bucks who their two-time MVP was already talking about, look, if you guys are not serious about winning, serious about putting the

best product possible on the floor, I'm not signing no extensions here and all of that kind of stuff. So they, not only did they upgrade the roster, they have to have had pacified the most important buck in the history of the franchise in the process. This is a slam dunk, home run, power play goal, all of the other sports cliches, whatever you want to call, man. This is great for the box. Hold on one. Yeah. Well, this is why if you're Janus, you know, you make a little noise. You know, you make it very clear what you want. Yeah. And credit to the bucks for responding in the best possible way they could given the needs of their team was.

You're absolutely right. A huge win for the Bucks and specifically their offense, man, just the swing between the version of Drew Holiday we saw in the playoffs offensively versus what the Bucks are about to get from Damien Lillard

is about as big of a margin as you're going to see between two star players. And I say that with all due respect to Drew is a really good player and goes to Portland temporarily, I assume, will be traded subsequently at some point this season to a winning team because he's still going to have

a lot of value. But man, Dame just gives them so much of exactly what they need. Yeah. So the full details, as we know them recording this at 1152 AM West Coast time on Wednesday after we've recorded a full podcast. So I think it was our, I think it's the best podcast we've ever done. It's really a shame that the people will never hear it. We'll sell it like that Wu-Tang album that got sold, just the one-off. Martin Schrelli, get at us. There you go. The Blazers, maybe not. Blazers get Drew Holiday, DeAndre Ait and Tumani Kamara,

an unprotected first-round pick in 2029, and swap rights to the 2028, 2030 picks from Milwaukee. The sons jump in here and get use of Nerkage for some reason. Grayson Allen, Nasir Little, and Keon Johnson. I think the top line takeaway is kind of what you guys already sort of pointed toward, is that got to give the buck's credit for every time that Janus is thrown down the gauntlet answering the call and getting him the superstar help that he needs. I think the conversation had kind of warped around Janus to where when he signed the first extension, it seemed like, oh, you know, maybe it's the small market getting a win.

And like maybe it's like just a foreign guy not caring about the same thing. Some American-born guys tend to do. And it kind of got flat into the point where he became a symbol for a lot of different things. I've always looked at it a little bit more cold-heartedly and a little bit more pragmatically where he's like, this team wasn't good enough. You gave me Drew Holiday. And this team wasn't good enough again. And you gave me Damien fucking Lillard.

And so you got to hand it to the Bucks. I think there are long-term concerns. I want to talk about that. It's probably like part L of this entire spreadsheet here. But first and foremost, like what an absolute gangbusters decision for the Bucks. I can't wait to see these guys together. Well, I want to apologize to Janus, too, because. if the Bucks had made a deeper playoff run last season

and didn't lose in kind of embarrassing fashion, maybe we don't see this trade. So maybe he was kind of right about last season not being a failure. It steps to success. It steps in any Damien-Billard. Absolutely, although I didn't need the Nike commercial about it even still. But again, like, it's hard to see this as anything but a major victory for what the Bucks are trying to in the very near term as far as placating Janus and being better.

And I think how this works in basketball terms is going to be amazing. Again, what have we talked about all of these years about we don't want Janice initiating offense? We want somebody that can set the table for him. We want somebody with some level of offensive gravity while also possessing some playmaking capabilities. And, you know, as much of a great guy and reputation-wise, Drew Holiday has been, Dame Lillard on the reputation, work your ass off, professionalism front. He's a perfect fit with Janus culturally in that sense as well. Again, this is a slam dunk. Now, on the Portland side,

I know how they're going to spin it, but this is interesting. You don't like it? Okay, this is what I think we're talking about. Three unprotected picks from Miami or two swaps, one unprotected, for the right for D'Andre Aiton, who's already been paid. And so, you know, we can figure out if how he's going to play, knowing that situation when, you know, his professionalism and dedication, motor, all of that focus has been questioned throughout his career. So it's like, all right, D'Andre Aiton, who I think is complimentary to their wing situation and guard situation to be sure and whatever they can get for Drew Holiday on the open market, right?

So it's like those three unprotected, whatever they could have got for Tyler Hero versus one unprotected and Drew Holiday. You know, and Aiton. And again, like, I think there's some debate as to whether one of those deals is better. We won't know until in the future. But as we were talking about before the show guys, the history of these swaps is that them swaps don't be swapping. That has a... Boston got some nice plays out of their swaps in the Brooklyn situation.

But outside of that, go look it up. This hasn't been a boon to the teams that went out and got these swaps where everybody got so excited. Like, oh, my God, in the future, they're going to have these great picks because of the swap rights. that hasn't borne itself out in the past. And so I think it remains to be seen. Yeah, this is an interesting deal, not only for the principal teams involved,

but some of the ancillary ones too, right? Like the Pelicans were stakeholders in the bucks failing down the line because they own all these future Milwaukee picks and swaps. So they're obviously taken a bit of a hit today too, especially because theirs are on a shorter term. The Blazers are betting much further down the line. And Janus is still young enough that he could be a dominant. prominent player, even when those blazers picks and swaps are starting to convey. But you're right

that it is a bit of more of a long shot bet. And especially if the primary concern for Janus was, is this organization as invested in winning as I am? And you get this kind of signal. That's a pretty good investment in the near term future of the bucks and maybe even in the long term future of the bucks. Yeah. It's kind of an incomplete as of yet. Just because we don't know what's going to happen, Drew Holiday. We immediately got the reporting from Woj that suggests. that the Blazers is going to look to turn Drew Holiday into more assets, presumably first round picks. Now, he has a player option for next season,

and so maybe that complicates things, but I can't imagine a team like the Heat, for instance, or some of these other contenders. Oh, my God, yeah. Maybe the Sixers would want to get into the Drew Holiday mix and just add to the pick pile here. I guess I don't want to get too negative on the Bucks too soon here, but it does kind of get into the whole, like, short position on the Bucks' future

versus Miami's future. And if you really think about it, like Miami has a longer track record of success organizationally, and they have a bit more of a runway toward that with presumably Bam out of bio and just, you know, the market is going to attract certain stars.

I think there is a darkest timeline here, and I don't know how possible it is, where the bucks are one overcommitted to this team here and now, which they should be. I think this is going to be an incredible team that could win the title next season, maybe the year after that.

But you have to look at it. It's like Dame is also 33, smaller guard who's had injury concerns over the past two years, although last year, I guess, was more like the Blazers defense being injured and not equipped well enough rather than Dame himself. That's a little funny business there. But like, I actually would prefer to short the bucks than the heat. And so in that regard, I think they actually, it makes more sense than a heat trade.

I like this better than the potential heat offers too. And I think some of it is to me, DeAndre Aiton is as good or. better than Tyler Hero, who would be kind of the centerpiece of the Miami offer. Again, you're kind of picking it. It's the little apples and oranges positionally speaking or maybe like apples and dragon fruit. I don't know. It's pretty far apart. Sure.

But to me, it's that. And then I'm pretty bullish on the idea that Drew is going to have a real market among some of these contending teams. And it's, it's Philly. As you mentioned, Justin potentially, man, the Lakers could get in on that kind of action. There's a lot of teams that need just that kind of guard defense. and could really talk themselves into giving up some things of real value,

whether it's young players or picks, that could be really attractive to Portland. And so the incomplete nature of it, to me, works in its favor. Because as constructed, if it's just Aiton and the picks, I think that's maybe like comparable to a little less

than what they would have gotten from Miami. But you include the Drew part of it, a kind of fringe, all-star level player, who you're going to be now able to flip in potential fashion, that's a huge swing. I think this,

this particular formulation of the deal relative to the Miami one. Yeah, I think what it ultimately hinges on is what they can give for Drew Holiday. We'll see what the market is like for them out there because, again, this is a guy who they, quote unquote, don't need, which I disagree with that idea. I do think they should have competence in their back court or in their wing department and in their big department. Like I think even rebuilding teams should have good players on it. But, you know, I've been in the minority in that opinion as far as our media cohort who loves a tanking operation where you strip it down to the bare bones. And it looks like a G-League team.

However, yeah, I guess we'll see what they could get for Drew. That's ultimately what it comes down to. If they get something of significance for Drew, this is definitely better than the Miami deal. 100%. If they don't. you know, Aitin. That's the biggest, that's the best thing they got if they don't.

But the tradeoff for that, too, that we haven't talked about yet is you're getting off of three seasons of use of Nerkich that he's due. And that deal isn't exorbitant, but Nerkich was certainly not a part of this particular, like, Blazers' future timeline. And frankly, it was going to take some doing to move him on to another team. He wasn't like a positive trade asset at this point. Well, it depends if you work for the Phoenix Suns or not because they certainly see it as such. Let's just talk about the Suns briefly here because they're obviously probably the least interesting part of this,

but it's certainly curious that they had such eyes for use of Nurkish to the point where John Gambadaro, who's like just really plugged into that team, was suggesting that Nurkich was like this defensive upgrade overate. And I guess it could be, I think you could be, I think you could. make a case considering in the playoffs DeAndre barely tried and was outplayed down the stretch by Jock Landau simply by actually giving a shit and boxing out.

But if anything, they just got a worse version of Nerkich. I guess the question is one, Rob, do you think that's a worthwhile tradeoff considering just how much commotion was around and for the listeners in home? I'm just moving my arms around because that signals commotion.

And do you like some of the other guys that they got in addition to him? Grayson Allen, Nassir Little guys that could fill out the depth chart? I like the other guys. I will say they don't really solve Phoenix's fundamental problem, which is the sons. They threw a bunch of minimums at the wall. I thought they got pretty good results with the Eric Gordons and the Bull Bulls, the guys they were able to return, given the circumstances. But they solved the same problem, which is which of these guys can actually

stay on the floor in the playoffs. And the most accomplished non-Yusuf Nurkich player they got in this deal is Grayson Allen, who really can barely stay on the floor in the playoffs. He gets attacked so much defensively. Nasir Little, quality player, very eager to see where his career goes. Kian Johnson, I'm kind of agnostic on, but he has some fans in the league for sure. My problem is more with the Nurkich trade-off. I was hoping for an outcome for the Sons if they did enter into an 8-and-for-Nurkitch swap.

that they would get at least one more solid role player than they got here. And these, to me, are all like pretty big dice rolls on a team that's already full of dice rolls. I like this deal for the Sons, if only for the process of it. Meaning what happened in the playoffs against Denver was that they were so dependent on KD and Devin Booker to be excellent, sublime in the mid-range. shooting 60 and 70% in the two games that they won because of their lack of depth everywhere else. It felt like they had such below average players around it and Ait didn't seem to elevate that much.

So now they're like, look, we're putting, not only did we add Bradley Bill, but the stuff around it is going to be so competent, I think they can credibly say to themselves they can score at the level of Denver in a series. I'm of that belief that offensively they're just as potent as Denver is right now as presently constructed. And I think what they're betting on is the idea that their vets and the guys that they have will have enough pride, hustle, and scheme discipline on defense to just barely be above water, right?

Above water defense with the best offense in the league. That's what they're betting on. And I respect that process because last year they were so depleted depth-wise that those guys, Booker and KD got loaded up on in such a way. And it was just like, go ahead, Josh Okie, shoot it. We dare you two, you know, and Tori Craig and, you know, the rest of the freaking Washington generals that they had running out there next to KD and book. And so I like this gamble that they took and just be like, we're going to be unstoppable. on offense and we got we're betting on the pride of our guys to just be barely competent enough

on defense. But does trading out Aitin for Nurkich make you more unstoppable on offense? It certainly doesn't make you less. I don't believe that it does. You just need a big body at this point. Honestly, if it's Bulbul, if it's Nurkich, like everyone else is going to do the, have the juice on that team. And the senator is just going to have to provide some sort of defense.

at the basket and be healthy, which like two things, Nurkich, it hasn't really done over the past couple of years. So that's certainly an open question. I do like that they got Alan, they got another shooter here. Because to Waz's point, like when anyone can make a goddamn shot, they looked good in the playoffs. They're the only team that took two games off the nuggets throughout the entire playoffs, specifically because they left those guys open. And when they hit shots, it worked. And so, but the problem is is kind of the one that is the one that they've been targeting all offseason, to solve. It's just like they actually probably need a three and D wing guy who they could throw onto the best offensive players. And like maybe that's Nazir a little. I'm not as sold on him.

Rob, you probably have a more thorough examination of his game and what he can bring right now, almost certainly. But he's more intriguing to me because just having another smaller guard in Allen seems almost duplicative to a guy like Eric Gordon for instance. Like they kind of have that. What I really need is that that three who could really body up a guy in the playoff. Yeah, and Nassir Little, I would say, has shown promise of being kind of that player, but the track record just isn't there in any kind of significant way yet. That's what teams that are in the Sun's position have to take chances on. And it's what teams that are in the Bucks position now have to take chances on, right?

These unproven guys who are going to be on the scrap heap one way or another, who are going to be acquired, like, acquireable via trade one way or another. if Nassir Little was a bona fide stopper, he would not be in this deal. And so the idea is that he can be something a little bit more in a more competitive situation. And I think that's a safe bet and a strong bet given even what we've seen from him so far. It doesn't make it a sure one. And the Sons are in a position where they're going to have to have some certainty as to what their playoff rotation is going to look like by the end of the year. But they have lots of time to figure that out.

So I like the idea of trying Little on in that role and having him see if he can become that kind of player for you, because they certainly could use it, they're just not there yet. And for a deal, to me, maybe they were never going to be in trading D'Andre Aiton. You're never going to get a perfect return for an imperfect player

who's especially, you know, quit on his team in a couple of different situations if we're being honest in Phoenix, like did not show up for games that he should have shown up for along with like the very long history of just like, not executing the way you want, not filling his role in the way you might want.

And he's going to have lots of operations, in Portland to show that he can be a different kind of player, maybe too much opportunity in Portland. He's going to get those opportunities to show who he really is. That's for sure. But if you're Phoenix in trading that guy, you're never going to get exactly what you want. And hopefully this is enough of what they want

to at least kind of continue to advance the Sun's agenda. Yeah, I believe the original Dallas Mavericks trait that was floated around around the draft for Aiton was something to the effect of Tim Hardaway Jr. Rishon Holmes and Javelle McGee. and it was scuttled because of Javelle McKee's extra money. And they did better than that. I think if only because I like Little's long-term upside.

I like Allen, but like that was the market value of Ait. And I think we have to ask the question was if like if there is still the ideal version of Aiton that I think we saw in the 2021 finals run for them, the guy who's willing to do the lunch pail stuff or even just like his own version of himself where he is a little bit more flexible, a little bit more versatile. Like, do you like Portland taking a bet on eight and one that player can still, like that can still exist? And two, putting him around your young, precocious talent like Scoot Henderson. Yeah, I'm of so many minds here because he has shown such a level of positive playing at that

position, right? the requisite go-to, go hard as you can, level on defense. Then he did it for an entire playoff just now. The counter argument for that was like, yo, he was playing for a check. And then we saw what happens when he ultimately didn't get it. And he, you know, they didn't give him the extension early. He sulked all season and that soured him over there. But I think if you want to be positive about this, if you're a Blazer supporter,

is that maybe what he needed is a change of scenery, which this obviously is. And, you know, now that they're going to give him responsibilities and not treat him as a caddy, essentially, right, and be like, no, you have stewardship of this franchise organization, this offense and defense, maybe that's going to revitalize the type of player that he is and he's going to seize the moment.

Some other people, look, again, if you want to take the more negative viewing of this, is like, yo, this dude already got paid. He's kind of shown himself to be a malcontent at the place that he was, meaning there are scenarios in which where we know he's capable of not giving it his all. So he's not the type of guy who gives it his all no matter what. We know that to be the case with him. And again, his level of professionalism, dedication, focus both on and off the court,

has come into question. Y'all could do y'all Googles and figure that out on y'all own. but that's something that's coming to question with this guy and that's who the Blazers are bringing in and so I see both sides of the coin but I think Cronin who's somebody who I haven't been very kind to in my coverage of how he's dealt with the Dame situation I think he can barely credibly say

that this is better than what Miami had for him in essentially those three picks let's talk more about Aitin though because I I both agree that he has been a malcontent. I agree he has been, let's say, under-motivated during his time as a Phoenix son. He was also, like, put into a role that did not suit him, right?

Like, Chris Paul wanted, at least by his play, by his apparent instruction on the court, seemed to want DeAndre, seemed to want Aiton to be D'Andre Jordan, like be a strict, rim-running, defensive, rebounding center. he was never that guy he was never going to be that guy you can try to pigeonhole him into that sort of role

and maybe he can kind of accomplish it for you know stretches at a time maybe even a season at a time Dandre Aden is really skilled and I don't blame him for chafing against the limits of the role he was put in I'm not saying he is any great shakes given all the freedom in the world but he is a young

incredibly talented player who does deserve a chance to see if he can be more than that. And we'll see how that looks in Portland. To me, it's not a matter of, like, him telling Scoot Henderson what to do and him being like a leadership voice there. It's like, he's going to be in a position where he is not being constantly told by the veterans on the sons what to do. And that can be liberating in its own way.

So where do skills come in when you're taking fadeaway 15 footers against six foot guys. Thank you. You refuse to just dunk the ball, go up strong when a guy who you're giving, who's giving eight inches to you, is guarding you and you're two feet from the basket. I mean, like, there's legitimate downsides to this guy's game. And again, there's so many. There's so many downsides.

And again, we talked about what his market was before. And so, again, like, I already see, I already know what the chatter is going to be as far selling this guy. as what you got back for Dane as this great boon. But the reality is, it wasn't always about just being some ferocious lob thread. It was just like, yo, man, go up strong and get filed by a guy that's way smaller than you.

You know? And so all of this skill, finesse stuff, like, we talk about it like, yo, he's a really skilled player. But also it's like, this guy thinks he's, you know, he thinks he's a wing and should be shooting turn around 17 footers. And so there's that point why you're rolling to the to the basket. Yeah. Yeah. There's a reason why you got pigeon hold. Yeah. And so like maybe Chris Paul wasn't as diplomatic as he probably needed to be in that scenario. He has a long tracker doing this.

No, not Chris Paul being bad at communication. No way. But the message is right and strong. Effective. Like he does need to roll and go harder to the basket. There's zero question about it. And I do wonder if that will ultimately be where he ends up. But I actually, wonder if it's constructive at the very least, providing him the opportunity to touch the stove for one last time to realize that that actually isn't in your benefit long term financially or otherwise to be the more skilled like midrange jumper guy. I know that's attractive and maybe you can never met it out of his personality and that's just going to be in here. That happens with big guys all the time where they just never click in and be the guy that they need to be. But in other

instances like I think he could be a very productive good player if he realizes in Portland that like he's he's best off just taking those laws from scoot and just like just counting his money after the game so the player it may be in there somewhere still there is something just distinctly hilarious for the sons and the Blazers in the fact that both teams have traded like one of the most go strong to the basket averse bigs in the league in Yusuf Nurkich and DeAndre Aiton for each other. And I could see how on either side, if you're a Blazers fan, you're thinking, oh, my God, I'm so sick of Yusuf Nurkich's like little push shots fading away from the basket that never

seemed to go in. Thank goodness, we have this incredible athlete. We're going to plug in at the five and being shown who DeAndre Aiton is. And on the other side of it, thinking the opposite about, like, oh, we got this big, burly center and Yusuf Nurkich only to find the reality of what the sons are about to experience, which is a good player, a skilled player. one who doesn't really go that hard to the rim a lot that often if we're being totally honest.

Well, we've talked a lot about the Sun's depth chart. Let's talk about the Bucks just because I'm sitting here wondering who is even on this team anymore. I thought you were saying you were wondering if you could get a 10 day with this team by January. And the answer is yes. I might. I mean, I just ran around my block the other day.

Just give me a couple more weeks and a whole lot of extra skills. And maybe I could get there. but like it's in effect just the same team the same starting lineup as it was just with drew holiday giving way to damien lillard i don't know who plays the two i assume it's pat conneton if only because i think that guy is going to die on the court in milwaukee it's everything changes in milwaukee except for yannis and pat conneton and so what a legend so it's not a bad option to go to particularly in the playoffs for conneton has been kind of a baller there but like i think the question, Rob, is like, is there enough of a team to hit this year as the window? Because as we

said, like, Demi and Miller isn't getting any younger. And obviously, Janus wants to win now. This team is built for that. Like, it seems weird to automatically just flash forward to whether or not the seventh or eighth guy is good enough. But like, that's going to matter in the margins of, like, uh, conference finals. Well, I think what's interesting about the bucks is it's, it's not just flashing forward to whether like the eighth guy is good enough is like is the sixth guy good enough is the fifth guy good enough right those those core four are rock solid and are going to be awesome all year and are really the the crux of the reason why we are so bullish on them but when you really want to get down to it like i bobby portis is going to be really important for them pat coniston's going to be

really important for them those guys have proven it in the playoffs uh our friend malik beseley is on the back back in the sure. Much to my and soon to be much to Janice's chagrin. Malik Beasley is going to be on the receiving end

of many kickout passes for the Milwaukee. I mean he's basically going to be slotted in as like a Grayson Allen replacement is what it looks like now. Jay Crowder, who some seasons

hits every shot, some seasons hits zero shots to be determined which kind of season this will be. But they're a team that's in an awkward position because they don't have any draft capital to trade for another rotation player.

They don't have obviously any kind of like cap space to throw at somebody who's a free agent, not to say that there's any great free agents left. We're just perusing the list. Will Barton was the most enticing name on the board if you want to bring somebody in. Or I guess there are two other Anta-Compos available at this point if they want to go that route. But the Bucks will need to find somebody along the way. They have an incredible core, an incredible chance to win the title. They are so, so tantalizingly close, but they're going to need a little bit of help to get there.

Yeah, I'm just less concerned about these ancillary parts. I really do think that like Brooke Lopez and Chris Middleton and Janice and Dame, like any combination of those, two of those four guys with a bunch of, you know, replacement level NBA guys, specifically in the regular season, that's going to prop up a lineup, man. Oh, yeah. When they're not dominating as the four of them together. Like, I'm really just not, I'm just not very concerned about that.

The ability for both Brooke and Janus to carry lineups has five men's themselves. Like, I just think they're going to be pretty freaking good, man. Like, this bench stuff is going to need to sort itself out. In the playoffs, they're going to get to a point where they're playing like seven guys for sure. but man, I just love how it looks, how the pieces fit as far as what these guys bring to each other. Obviously, we know Dane's limitations on defense to have Janus and Brooke Lopez holding them down back there.

It's just, you know, that's just amazing to me. And what Dame does to alleviate some of Yannis' own limitations on that other end, I just love the symmetry of that. and I'm Look, we need to get Isaiah in here for Cope Corner as a Celtics fan But if you're a Celtics fan You gotta be looking at this trade like

Jesus Christ Very tough pressure Pressure on Middleton To be the guy we've known from years past And not the guy who struggled through injuries I mean it's the type of thing that you can't really predict But it does feel like the margin for error is way slimmer

and I'd probably still make the trade 10 times out of 10, but like you're kind of hoping that he is the guy that you need him to be now. They were going to be hoping for that regardless. I would say, if anything, it takes a lot of pressure off, right? He is distinctly the third creator in these lineups now with Dame and Janus. And just to put the proper punctuation on what you were saying was,

the Dame Janus pick and roll could very possibly be the most devastating play in basketball this season. That's the level we're talking about, like, the most basic construction with those lineups, most basic plays and sets will be absolutely ridiculous to guard with those two guys on the floor. So now that Chris is kind of the second side guy in a lot of those things, and he doesn't have to run pick and roll. He doesn't have to be as much of a ball handler if you don't need him to be, although he certainly will with some of these second units and some of these bench lineups. I think that's a great place for him. Like just adding a guy to the team who Damien Lillard, not many people who are paying.

paying attention, but even with last year's Blazers when he played, that was a really good offense. And that team did not have any business being a really good offense. So that's the kind of firepower we're talking with, the kind of gravity here. The dual gravity between Dame and Janus, like, galaxies have been torn apart with less. You know, like that is a lot of gravity you were talking about. Is that like a Marvel reference? Shouts to the midnight boys.

Coming soon to Disney Plus. But we have to be, and again, we have to. to go back to playoffs past. A lot of times in crunch time, the best option that the Bucks had was Chris Middleton initiating a pick and roll with Janice. Like, Chris Middleton, as good as he's been when he's been thrust into that role

of initiating crunch time offense for the Milwaukee Bucks and the most important possessions of the season, that responsibility is now seated to Damian Lillard, who that's just a completely different proposition. One, first of all, you switch a big on to Damian Lillard in a pick and roll.

He's going to roast him. Bye, bye. That's a roast. He's getting killed. You put two on the ball now, four and three with Janus going down, downhill, when one of your bigs was one of the guys

that doubled Damian Lillard. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, my goodness. Yeah, I challenge you, I challenge you NBA defenses to build the Janus wall when, if you do stifle him, he's just going to run a dribble handoff with Damien Lillard curling into a three. And you're hanging out in the paint.

Oh, and we saw what Drew Holiday was doing with those possessions. My word. Oh, my goodness. Vam atrocious level execution from him on offense with the ball in crunch time. And again, you're seeing that he was kind of slipping on defense. What Jimmy Butler did to this guy in the first round last year, Drew Holiday, he's generational defensive player. He's shown that he might not be that anymore.

So you're not even getting those benefits from June. And to bring that like, again, the only first and second team all NBA player who was moved in this deal is now on the bucks with a top three MVP guy. Come on, man. This is, oh, yeah. I don't have any concerns about the offensive fit and like what they could do. It should be pretty incredible pretty quickly. If there's any like modest concern, it's probably on the defensive.

And it's just that like you probably now need Janus to be the wingstopper that Drew typically had the position of. And maybe they should have been doing more of that. Honestly, in the bud era, it worked in fits. And maybe he can because his offensive burden has now been lessened. True. Yeah. That's a great point. But yeah, there are fewer options there.

Luckily, they have a defensive, perennial defensive player of the York contender in order to potentially mop that up for them. So do you want to look at the contender race right now in the NBA or should we do the Drew change? Because they kind of go hand in hand because where Drew probably affects the contenders race. Let's start with Drew and then we'll round into the contenders, I think. Okay. So as I mentioned before, it seems like the Blazers are looking to flip him for future assets. I think the question is who now gets into the Drew mix. And now I think you could name a lot of the likely suspects, Miami Heat, the Sixers, and up and down the list.

Does any team jump out to you, Rob, first and foremost, is like Drew would be the perfect fit there. I think he'd be the perfect fit in a lot of places, to be honest. And I think he'd be a slightly imperfect, but still incredibly valuable fit in a lot of situations too. I think what's good about Drew is you can plug him into a contender, you can plug him into a playoff team that's just trying to be scrappy and competitive. you can also plug him into an upstart team

that's trying to take a step. If the Orlando Magic decided they wanted to make a push this season, he could be a really important piece for them and take a lot of the pressure off some of their primary creators there. So I think the natural fits are, as you described. Like Miami, especially now that they don't have Damien Lillard

make a lot of sense. He does pinch their shooting a little bit. Right? That was the hope of Dame was that you add Damien Lillard to this heat team and he, all of a sudden your spacing problems are not resolved. All that shit you was doing for Duncan Robinson and Tyler Hero. Like you were going to be running those actions for Damien fucking Lillard.

That was going to be pretty crazy. It would have had a little more juice to say the least. Just a little. Drew is a totally different player, but one who could still help Miami a lot. So you fully expect them to make the calls. Although now that the heat had to come crawling back to the Blazers with making an offer for now Drew Holiday. Yeah. Maybe that's an irreparable relationship.

Maybe that's just not a productive one. I don't know exactly. But the range of teams that could talk themselves into Drew is it makes it so exciting. And I think what makes it so potentially lucrative for the Blazers in terms of getting back really good players or really good picks in exchange for him. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, somebody like the Lakers, that would be incredible. Of course, I pitched the Lakers to try to get in on Dame, honestly. I think the Lakers could, just with LeBron and AD, what Drew does on defense,

his offensive know-how, as far as, like, he's a smart player on offense when he's not being tasked with, like, pure point guarding or pure scoring. Being a guy that's working around people with gravitational pull makes sense. I like that he can guard ones and twos. I think that's what, you know, ultimately makes him this really attractive player. again, all the teams that are looking to do something important who aren't essentially the big four, and I guess we'll talk about the big four at some point,

should be trying to get in the mix on this guy. What do you think about the Kings? I could see it. I mean, the Fox Fit is not the most natural, but I think the good thing about Drew, I'm going to take it one step further was, I think not only can he guard once and twos, he can guard ones and twos and threes against a lot of teams.

So that's the kind of flexibility that I think could really benefit Sacramento. It's not as clean a fit as you could find other places, though. Especially how you've already developed this chemistry between Sabonis and Fox. And Fox, when he's not running that beautiful two-man game, he's just doing it by himself with the rock.

Yeah. I'm saying more maybe take Harrison Barnes out of the mix, play a little smaller, play Drew off guard. Do you have enough shooting to allow Drew to just be defensive juggernaut there. Probably not. You're pretty small in the back court. So it'd be Fox, Drew.

I guess you'd probably play Barnes and sit, Herder, and then Murray and Sabonis. So it probably doesn't accomplish what you needed to. I'm a little, yeah, I'm a little worried about the shooting, especially given how reliant Sacramento is on that offense. You know, Drew's going to help clean things up defensively, but he's not going to solve everything. What about the thunder?

And now this is coming on a day where Sam Presti literally had a soliloquy about how they shouldn't be in a rush to do something like this. But if it's Drew instead of Ludoort, I think that makes a lot of sense long term. Yeah, Drew is obviously giving them more juice on the ball than Dort does. But, you know, they might just be more interested in like, yo, J. Dub or I don't know who's J. Dub, who's J. ever over there. That was the good one. The really good one. Yeah, y'all figure that out at home.

It might be that they'd rather develop that guy as the guy next to Shea who's going to always be on that ball. And Drew, if he's doing nothing on the ball at all for you, I don't think he's a better defender than Lou Doort at this point. It's hard to make that argument. Is he a better shooter than Lou Doort? I think maybe not. I think he's a better shooter.

He's a better shooter. He's a better shooter than Lou Doort that. Drew is just, Drew's just, is spotty. Like he'll go through stretches where he can't hit the shot and then all of a sudden he'll look fantastic. And he's just going to be better at attacking a closeout where like, look, God bless Dort, he's my man. But sometimes when he puts his head down,

he goes to the basket and he barely gets two feet off the ground for that finish. It's, you know, it's not always pretty. At least Drew has like a mid-range pull-up he can go to. He has like these things in his bag. Yes. That I would, you know, I think would be nice around what Oklahoma City is doing.

I don't think he would take that much stuff off the table for the young developmental guys. But, you know, we'll see. They seem to be in love with all their young guys. We'll see. I think it would be nice, but frankly, I just don't think they need him like that. Probably not yet.

Ultimately, they're going to need to consolidate in ways that get clearer fits in the door versus, like, a guy who kind of fits what you do, but also muddles the picture. Okay, one more, and then we'll move. on. What about to the Warriors in place of Chris Paul? Yeah, I think they missed their chance on that one.

Well, can you can you just turn Paul into Drew? So he's on his 15 in the last three months? He would just be salary because he's an expiring contract effectively. And then you get like a young guy. Like let's say it's comminga or you get draft picks.

I would be fascinated for the alternate universe where the Chris Paul trade hadn't happened yet. And does Portland like Jordan Pool? Do they, would they be interested in Jordan Pool? Like, how would he factor into these conversations? How the hell are you interested in Jordan Pool? I don't know. Different strokes for different folks, Was.

I mean, them strokes look the same than me with those two dudes. All right, let's size up this NBA race now. So we're going to do our power rankings, probably starting next week here. So you just want to spoil it right now. Yeah, let's do it. We're just thinking through it, you know? We're just spitballing. I think the order, I think we'll intrigue people with the order of this group.

But bucks in the east, best team? Yes, this is a question. Unless Isaiah wants to argue to the contrary. I mean, the Celtics certainly have a case. I'm just not a big believer in the Christopps-Borzingis era. and the Brad Stevens era of where he's just like getting rid of guys and upsetting other guys. It seems like Malcolm Brogden is another guy that still seems to need to be figured out there.

Yeah, but he's Michael Brogden, you know. And then you're counting on Derek White to be the guy that he was last season in the playoffs, which not an awful bet, but man, Prising is getting injured before the World Cup is just like the biggest hitting the balls. Didn't I just see that he's ready to go for training camp? Did I? Who the fuck knows? No one knows. Is that fake news?

He might be ready one day. He might not be ready in two months. It's just this is the whole Christop's thing. Also, for whatever it's worth, what your concerns may be about, you know, who plays from Milwaukee in the playoffs, who comes off their bench? Ditto for like Lamar Stevens and Delano Banton and Luke Cornyette and Sam How is, like, that is the Celtic bench, right? They have, okay, put some respect on O'Shea Berset's name, my friend.

I actually do like O'Shea Bressette. But these are who you're pinning your hopes to ultimately, right? If you're either of these teams, it gets a little shaky once you get past the sixth guy. Yeah, just a lot of injury front-centered. And then Joe Missoula is going to be the one figuring it out. Just remember that part two. Well, that's a question mark worth noting on the Milwaukee side is we have no idea what kind of head coach, Adrian Griffin is going to be.

And we're about to find out in a pressure-packed circumstance. Very quickly. But I think those two are the obviously two. two best teams in the East right now. Philly bringing back Hardin and just, you know, bringing back the gang, circling back on that, I don't see how you can feel confident that they are on the level

of the aforementioned two teams. And then in the West, I think it's obviously Phoenix and Denver as the two best teams. I don't think that that's even arguable. I know I'm sure some Laker fans who want to get it in, Clipper fans, stop it. You are not in this mix at all. You're not even close.

Those four teams, man. I think it's a beautiful mix. I'm going to be interested to see how they come out the gate. I wonder which one of those four teams are going to try to assert their dominance out in Vegas in the end-season tournament, JV. Oh, man. Like, I'm really, really, really excited for all of this. where are we getting a suite for the in-season tournament? Are we Cesar's guys?

Where are we staying? I'm Vodara, live or die. Yeah, Justin don't want to deal with that cigarette smoke in the casino. Yeah. You want the casino next door is what you want. That's ultimately the formula. The overweight middle Midwesterners at the slot machine, Justin is just, he don't got time for the accoutrement of every single Vegas casino.

So he's a Vidar guy. me, man. Give me some cigar smoke. Give me some bottom shelf free drinks from the people serving it at the, you know, the blackjack table. Give me all of that. So where, I'm good with the champagne room. Where is Miami in the mix of all of this? Because obviously the biggest loser as a result of this, not having Dame just instantly provide the juice that they were open for. Respectfully, they are kicking rocks right now. Yeah.

Like, that's... They lost key cogs role player-wise, right? Max Truce is gone. Gabe Vincent is gone. These guys were excellent in the playoffs. And those guys are just gone for nothing. They didn't upgrade at any other spot. Nope.

They got a... They're on the outside looking in of the East Big Dog circle. Well, especially when if Dame had been traded to any other team, but Milwaukee... Right. Like, say the Toronto trade had happened. I think the Raptors would be pretty good, but not like a meaningful threat to the top teams in the East just yet. But trading him to Milwaukee kind of subments the bucks in that group, whereas otherwise, I think he would have a pretty good argument that they are in that first class of the Eastern Conference. And not only that, but they've been able to handle the Celtics in some of these matchups.

I think they would have a lot of reason to be really confident if that came down to be the Eastern Conference final again. So yeah, this is kind of a worst case scenario from Miami's perspective. Not only do you not get your guy and you didn't get him by maybe playing it a little too cool on your offer, but he really, he ended up with the one team you could not afford to let him go to. Now you have to deal with Hero, just scowling under designer bucket hats for a couple weeks here. How much longer is the bucket hat trend going to last? Are we on like a two-year cycle? Is it going to be like a six-month cycle?

We're cycling now. I don't think you'll see a single bucket the next playoff. Thank the Lord. It's good to know. So if I were to guess where you guys net out in the top of your power rankings, I would say because you're smaltzy losers, you'll put the nuggets at number one.

Just out of respect for the champions. I mean, it's a joke. Embarrassing for you, Justin. Also, let's also call it out, too, the team that had no future, according to Justin Vary or the Milwaukee Bucks might win the title or at least could be in a pretty serious position

for the next few seasons at minimum. We're getting so much mileage out of me putting like Milwaukee's sixth or seventh out of a top five of a future rankings. I love it for us that we've gone on this lie for so long. But I think the big conversation

is sons or bucks at this point. Are we sure the sons? Are we sure about the sons like that? I'm... I think, again, this is a big if. All three of their guys have had nagging, if not serious injuries in the very recent past.

If they could, if those guys are playing at or close to the level they're capable of in the playoffs, they are going to give the Nuggets a much harder series than Phoenix did last year. I don't think that can be argued at this point. Now, are they- Those are big ifs.

Yeah. Big ifs, big ifs, big ifs. Bigifs. But I think, man, they've put a formidable group of people on that roster on paper. There's no doubt about that. It's just about their training staff and maintaining this thing over the course of 82 games and then a grueling playoff. But yeah, I think the bucks, to me,

climb right to that number two spot. The championship pedigree as it is with the Damien Lillard upgrade. I mean, this is just incredible. He's coming with something to prove, chip on his shoulder, best supporting cast of his career. This is just going to be lights out stuff coming in. And then, yeah, Boston, I think they're bringing up the rear of that contender.

Is that how you say bringing up the rear? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, bringing up the rear. They're the ass of the contender field. They're the booty. Shouts to sexy red. I'm going to leave my exact. No idea what that means.

Okay. Let's let's what. The group chat heads are going to know what it means. Don't worry. Okay. I'm going to leave my exact one through four a little fuzzy for the sake of our future content. But to me, I have lingering and lasting questions about Phoenix. If you told me to pick which of these four teams is most likely to miss the conference final,

I would pick the Sons. And some of that's about them. Some of that's about like, whether it's the Lakers or the warriors or the resurgent grizzlies or the clippers, if everything finally falls into place for them. There's just more options out West that I think more challengers realistically to the sun specifically. The Nuggets not worried about because I'm schmaltzy as hell. But, you know, one follows the other.

I just don't have that level of confidence in the Sons yet. And some of it is the basketball fit and a lot of it is the health. I don't disagree with anything you guys said. I think this is probably among the more interesting outcomes that we could have possibly gotten for a friend, Dame. Like it just throws everything into chaos where other teams need to figure out counter moves to all this.

Just the pairing of Dame and Jan is two like similar hard scrabble, like salt of the earth type of guys. These are 10 toes. This is the 10 toes down team, guys. Exactly. I can't wait to see that. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. If you want to hear the episode re-recorded in advance of this,

send your Venmo requests to Isaiah on Twitter. Thanks to Ben Cruz for also. I got my individual stems if people want to listen. Whoa. You want to hear those takes. Get at me. All right. We'll be back next week.

See you.