The Ringer NBA Show - Instant Reactions to Bucks-Warriors

Episode Date: March 12, 2023

Justin and Kyle share their instant reactions to Saturday’s overtime thriller between the Milwaukee Bucks and the Golden State Warriors. They talk about the inconsistency issues that have plagued the Warriors this season, Stephen Curry’s incredible performance, and the significance of tonight’s big win (1:14). Later, the guys talk about the depth of the Bucks’ bench, Khris Middleton’s recent struggles, and the impact of Giannis Antetokounmpo’s absence (10:50). Hosts: Justin Verrier and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's official. One Shining Podcast is back, and I am your host, Tate Frazier. And as March Badness begins, we're covering everything from Selection Sunday all the way to the championship and beyond. We're going to have great guests that are coming through on the show. And look, if you're a friend of the program and you're already subscribed, you don't have to do anything. OSP is back. It's going to be right back in your feed. And if you're not a friend of the program, and this is your first time on the rodeo, then let me tell you this. You need to go to Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. and smash subscribe today because the OSP show is back.

Hello and welcome to this Saturday special edition of the Ringer NBA show. I am Justin Verrier and we're stealing him away from, what is it, the Mac quarterfinals, but it's Jay Kyle, man. What's up, buddy? Yeah, you had to drag me away kicking and screaming from the, well, you know, I'm still kind of recovering. It's been a tough weekend for me on a fandom level. We won't go into that.

But a lot of basketball, Justin, tonight's basketball, though was honestly a little better than I thought. You know, when we heard Janus wasn't going to play, I was, you know, you get that clash of the Titans excitement where you're like, oh, this is going to be wild. And then, you know, a little choppy. I'm sure we'll get into it more, but it turned out to be a pretty good game.

A pretty exciting close to the game, I think. So no Janus for the bucks, no Wiggins still for the Warriors, no Kaminga for the Warriors. So definitely a little deflated going into it, but Steph Curry managed to ring some excitement out of this. and maybe we should start there, where Warriors win this one,

125, 116, and overtime. I had sent you a text. I think it was around the third quarter, and I think I said, if the Warriors blow this, this is going to be embarrassing. And for a while, it seemed that way, but then Steph was just Steph,

and I guess this is the Warriors experience, right? It's like, there are a lot of reasons to doubt them, especially when they are away from their home arena, but Steph Curry is still incredible and can still win these types of games. So like, where are you on the Warriors maybe after this one? Are you still an optimist or is the doubt just like too much to ignore at this point? I had said this before the show to one of our warrior fan co-workers.

And I feel like I've just laughed about this because I feel like being, and I've experienced this too in my own life. You know, you're a Yukon guy. I'm sure you could probably confirm or disconfirm this. But whenever you're closer to a situation, I feel like the cynicism, it just, tends to be a little higher, you know, whereas from a distance, I'm kind of rounding the, I'm rounding some of those experiences. I'm not living or dying with every outcome. I'm kind of seeing this macro 30,000 foot thing. And I'm looking at it. I'm like, okay, well, you saw

tonight, Steph Curry and Draymond Green and Clay Thompson are this triangle. You just kind of need to have a core, a basic concept that is intact and makes sense. And, you know, it was a little choppy at times in, I think in sort of like dynamic with what Milwaukee does, which I think we can talk about, but I'm less pessimistic. I think defensively they might have some issues if Wiggins remains to be out. You know, I still think that the depth thing, they're sort of like putting flex seal and gum. They're shoving it into little holes to try to get by with, you know, their Ty Jerome minutes and their Devinchenzo minutes and things like that. Devinchenzo had like one of his best games of the season.

But overall, they're still the Warriors. And I sure as shit would not want to be playing them with their just cool as a cucumber poise late in games. And it's Steph, man. We know that he's capable of having these crazy outbursts. Where do you sit on him? I ping it right back at you.

Are you optimistic? Increasingly not despite what we saw from tonight because once I get away and farther away from the high of the Steph Curry performance. So the line looks beautiful, 36 points, six rebounds, four assists. But throughout that entire game, I was just asking a question I find myself asking a lot, which is who else is going to step up here? It seems like there are options, right?

Clay has been pretty consistent, especially of late, especially since in the games that Curry has missed. You know, pool is there. Occasionally he can give you a little bit of a jolt. But it's only until they, like, touched the stove that it feels like they, click into Warriors mode. And the fact that that doesn't happen for three, maybe even almost four quarters in this game,

I'm just like, where is this all the time? And where is it going to come from? Because like, yeah, Clay's been better, but you see games like this one where it's like, he almost needs like the nautical like wins to align for where he finally kicks in in overtime to end up scoring 22 points. And I'm just like,

there's, it's just too risky, man, especially if they're going to be playing so many games on the road, which they're in line to do because right now they're the sixth seat in the West. Yeah, I guess it just doesn't feel like they're imposing their will as frequently. And I think that's why we're coming away with this sort of flaccid feeling of just like, it's just doesn't feel like the way.

You know, that was kind of the, that was kind of the hallmark of the warriors, you know, from, you know, I guess 15 to there's been eras and it's been different in the different eras. But this team last year, I mean, I guess part of that is it's been talked about a lot. You know, Gary Payton and not being there. coming back but not being healthy. I just don't think physically there. And I think the physical thing was the thing that popped the most to me tonight when I was watching it is that like Poole specifically, you know, you could see that like you could read Drew's lips

that he was getting annoyed with Poole because the physicality seemed like it was bothering him quite a bit throughout the game. He, yeah, not the best game from Jordan Poole, four for 13, two for five from three, minus 11 plus minus, not that I'm a big single. game plus minus guy, but it matched the eye test. He just kind of looked flustered. And that's been kind of the vibe. If you want to point to one thing that has been one of many that has been critical and damning for them, I think it's just just how up and down he has been throughout the season. It's just like the margin for error isn't where it used to be. And like there was a point where

I think the broadcast mentioned that Ty Jerome only has like four games left to play in the NBA before they try to convert his two-way contract. And you kind of like, You got the little feeling from that one because you're just cycling through these bench guys who, like, you just can't count on. I mean, Moody got six minutes in this game, but, like, it's probably more minutes than he'll often see for, like, two-week stretches. I was watching the game, I think it was the Warriors game against the Grizzlies a couple days ago. And Steph made this, like, beautiful dump-off pass to Looney who was making a cut toward the basket, right? And I was like, oh, this is nice, right? And then Looney stops, sees that there was a rim protector in the basket.

basket and then just brings the ball back out. And I was like, God damn. Like, this is where I feel like the Wiseman failed experience really starts to hurt them. If they had like a vertical spacing, like, just physically imposing center that gave them this new dimension to the dynasty and they can like, like figure this stuff on on the fly. But instead you have a situation like tonight where you need Steph Curry to be MVP, Steph Curry, to really drag you out of it. And I don't know, man. Like I Dahl is not going to get it. Michael Green played well tonight. He's rarely in that situation. Just like, I don't know where this is going to come from unless Steph is incredible. So I'm pretty dubious, honestly. I didn't understand that play at the end of regulation. There were a couple

different bullet points here. I also want to tack on that like Jalen Rose's hair, there is not a TV with definition high enough to capture how sharp Jalen Rose's hairline is. I was staring at it. I was like, I can't, there are not enough pixels on the planet. We need like, 18K. On that last play, though, man, like, A, I don't understand why Jamichael Green wasn't the person catching that little fulcrum pass for the action to step. A, because he's a better shooter than Draymond, and he was having a better game. But then they were also like, oh, there's 1.8 seconds left. Can Steph get his shot off? I was like, what the hell are we talking about here, guys? This is the fastest draw on earth. I just was shocked by that.

overall though I think yeah I think you're right their draft philosophy has kind of betrayed the thing that got them here you know I think that in the things that that Wiseman struggle with the questions about him coming in the draft they just kind of didn't go away as they don't they're not going to just magic you're

and there's a kind of a culture thing I think that can maybe be a little bit of hubris he comes here we'll change him you know and they kind of experience that with Wiggins I don't know I definitely think I love Looney but it is kind of hilarious when he does that Rodman thing where he just kind of brings the ball to you,

like a loyal dog. It's kind of, I love him, but it is, it's not what you need. You need more. Yeah, it's not Luni's fault,

we should mention. God forbid, we ever attack Kavad Luni. That will never happen on a podcast with the two of us there. 15 rebounds from our guy. It's just a problem of like not having enough spacing when you have him and Dremont there.

And even when Kaminga's in there, they've had some of the similar issues where it's really just, it's Steph and Clay and then Devenzo was awesome from three tonight. But I don't know. It's just, It's not as well-oiled as it has been in the past. But let me put it this way, because had they lost this game, they would have dropped to a half a game above the mighty Los Angeles Lakers.

You're excited about this. Yeah. Well, I think it's just interesting, you know, interesting comparison points, a team that was left for dead 90 different times throughout the regular season versus the Warriors who everyone has been penciling in for the finals, despite the mounting evidence that they aren't the same team anymore. seems like they're kind of, you know, peers at this point in the season. Do you have more faith than in the Warriors or the Lakers, the Mighty Lakers with

the Angel Russell now at this point? I still have more in the Warriors. I just think, you know, you can be, two escalators can kind of be going two different directions and you can be exactly side by side, but it's not indicative of where you're going, you know, so I just think that's beautiful. I just think that the Lakers are going to have to win me over and prove it. But it is hilarious how just brand credibility, how much credit and discredit we give teams throughout the year in any given discussion.

I mean, you were talking about how you thought it was going to be embarrassing for the Warriors to lose to the bucks. I don't really, I don't know. I don't think so. I mean, they were nine and five without Yannis coming into the game. I mean, it's a game they need to win when Yannis isn't there. But like the Bucs identity is just so cohesive defensively. They play so hard. This matchup in particular I thought was interesting because Lopez was just sort of this implied thing of like we're going to have to we're going to have to kick the ball back out because the first kind of downhill thing is just not going to be there.

And he had a hell of a game tonight. I'm always impressed with Brooke Lopez. The one kind of quibble I've had for the Bucks were probably going on like maybe two seasons now. is especially after they traded one Dante Divencenzhenzo, who now plays for the other team in this matchup, like where the bench depth was going to come from, because he was really their only young piece to kind of roll this thing forward, who could maybe grow alongside Yanis,

besides obviously Middleton and Drew Holiday. But they have slowly but steadily assembled all these different veterans and bench pieces. The point where Goran Drogich is now on this roster didn't play tonight. But we were talking about this just offline, just like Joe Ingalls seemed like the steadiest hand. on the entire Bucks lineup in those crucial crunch time minutes. And so they've assembled this depth, like, quietly, Jay Crowder, another one,

where I'm starting to be like, oh, you won't find yourself in a Celtic series situation this time around where you're wondering who could hit a goddamn shot. You might not have like the go-to guy, but you have like five different options now to cycle through in order to find that guy. And so, I mean, the Bucks don't really need anybody keeping from them. They're one of the best teams in the NBA. and I think a lot of people's finals pick. But I'm even more bullish on the Bucks

than I probably have been this season and I'm already pretty high on them. Ingles was the guy that I actually wanted them to get. I've wanted them to get for a while because I just thought he fit so perfectly. You know, he instantly, I was telling you he instantly came on this roster and became the best passer and the best shooter.

One thing that I think is interesting though is, and this will probably segue to some other things about the Bucks. I do think that like each of their hand, you know, they finally, got him, you know, and that's great. But each of their handlers kind of, their secondary handlers, aside from Yonnas, talking about Drew, talking about, you know, Grayson Allen talking to Conantin doesn't really do a whole lot of that. Javon Carter, at one point, we were talking about this was just going to be the Javon Carter versus Devin Chino's show, which I didn't expect. But they kind

have asterisks next to them. Like, it's like our team's going to figure out that Joe really is not looking to get downhill at all and just play super uphill on him and switch that and make that pass difficult. I see that coming if they play the Celtics. And then Drew still has a little bit of that wildness in him. We saw him hit the huge one from the right wing when he got Kvon Looney in that switch. But then a couple of plays later, he just threw one off the backboard. I feel like that's the true holiday offensive experience. It still makes me a little icky. But Janus being there, I think, kind of obviously, is going to change the whole dynamic of the thing. Love Drew. And this is probably his best NBA season, if not statistically, than just the eyeball test. The problem is you just

don't want him to have to be your go-to guy on offense in a game like this. And he stepped up to his credit, but we saw in overtime, it kind of fell flat. And I probably brings us to the Middleton question. Third straight start for Chris Middleton, which happens to coincide with Janus not being there. So maybe they elevate him to the starting lineup just for a short time while Yannis is out. And then maybe they bring him back to the bench. But this is the first time he's been starting since he came back from that massive absence earlier in the season, a little flat. I don't know if we've seen the Middleton we've all expected at any point this season. He's definitely like, he's leveled out. He's not to the point where you're wondering why

this guy's even out on the floor anymore. You saw even late in overtime, he hit a big shot and I went through the line for another one. But something's not quite there. And that's probably the one thing that if you're going to worry about the bucks, it's going to be Middleton. Yeah, he's the thing that takes them to that final level. I mean, he's the guy who can, is, you know, when he's going, one of the toughest ISO covers in the league. I defensively, you know, there were a few different times in transition where it just looked like he was like 0.75 steps.

Like, he just, it didn't, he was getting blown by a lot. I was saying, too, that like, they kept trying to pick on these switches when the team, when teams go small against them because the bucks are so huge. teams will try to go small against them, and they kept trying to pick on those switches with like Ty Jerome and DeVincenzo, and he just didn't have the pop to get to his shot. You know, when he got

a big guy on him, it might have been Looney. He got to his shot and made a tough one. You know, not every team's going to play them like the Warriors do. I don't know. Would you like to see these teams in a final series? How excited about that would you be? Sure. These are definitely two of my favorite teams. I would be done.

Yeah, I can't wait to see this. No, I mean, I doubt not to be a warrior's pessimist constantly, especially in the game where Steph Curry just like blocked Drew Holiday and regulation pretty much. I feel like we've been pretty dower on them. But no, I highly doubt that they're going to make it back there, you know? Well, I'm not saying it will it happen. I'm just saying it just feels like we don't get to see them play that often, which is a true statement. But it's like those dynamics against each other, I wish we could get to see them fully healthy, but there's so many good teams.

It's not like we're going to be deprived of good basketball. Who is your finals pick before we go here? It's putting you on the spot. Yeah, well, I mean, the KD thing, it just kind of changes everything, depending, you know, assuming he doesn't slip and fall and we have to do the life alert thing to keep him healthy. I'm kind of wobbling right now.

I mean, initially it was Denver, Milwaukee. I also feel like the self-examination. Celtics will come around. I mean, I'll stick with Denver, Milwaukee for now, but I definitely could see it being, I could definitely see it being Phoenix, Milwaukee, which would also be super fun. What about you? Yeah, I'm in the same camp. I was Celtics for a very long time, but the buck's just like the depth, man. That was the one thing that I would be keying on and harping on for a while. It just seems like it's there. I don't know if I'm just like I'm a little bit more down on the Celtics because they hit kind of the roughest stretch of the season right here,

but who knows if Robert Williams is going to be out there. He's missed four straight game. So that's another injury we're going to watch here. But why don't we wrap it there? Thank you, everyone, for joining us here on this Saturday night or the Sunday morning as you're listening to this. Thank you to Kai Grady on production. Thank you to Benjamin Cruz also on production.

We'll be back on the Ringer Ambation show feed, I believe, on Monday. So stay tuned. See you.