The Ringer NBA Show - Instant Reactions to ‘The Last Dance Episodes 3-4 | The Ringer NBA Show

Episode Date: April 27, 2020

Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney gather to discuss the second week of ESPN’s Michael Jordan documentary, ‘The Last Dance.’ This week, we got a peek into the fascinating life of Dennis Rodman. Plus, we’re starting to peel the layers of the onion back on the real Jordan as he shows his past frustrations with Scottie Pippen, Phil Jackson, and the Detroit Pistons. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Ringer MBA show on The Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by World Central Kitchen. Their relief team is working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals and communities that need support. They're now serving tens of thousands of meals daily in some of our biggest cities like New York and L.A. And they're launching initiatives across America deliver fresh hot meals to hospitals and clinics fighting on the front lines while keeping local restaurants in business as well. You could directly help the heroes in hospitals and clinics who are fighting for us, and you can help keep your local restaurants alive. Please go to the ringer.com slash WCK to donate. We're trying to raise

$250,000. And if you have the means, it's an unbelievably great and useful cause that helps our hospital heroes, emergency workers, and local restaurants. Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen, and it's a charitable donation. Once again, that's the ringer.com slash WCK. Hello, welcome to the Ringer MBA show. This is, I guess, the group chat, maybe, sort of, kind of. I am Justin Barrier. Joining me on the line, the Brigadier General of the Sniffs,

it is Rob Mahoney. What's up, buddy? I got to say it's an honor. Thank you for the promotion. I'll cherish it always. And also with us, Bobby Sniff himself, Bobby Wagner. I think we can get rid of all, like, Ringer MBA show, different feeds within the feed situation right now.

it's just, we're just vibing on the Ringer NBA show. It's just one big family now. Pretty much. No longer the Wolfpack and NWL we're just under one banner. The Ringer NBA show is the friends we made along the way. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. So we are reconvening

for a bit just to talk about the latest episodes of the Michael Jordan 1997-98 Chicago Bulls documentary, the Last Dance, which chronicles, as I'm sure you know by now, that season and then going back to pretty much the entire story of Jordan and the Bulls.

It's a 10-part series. This week we got episodes 3 and 4, which focused on a lot of more of kind of the off-the-radar sort of things. I think one and two focused mostly on Jordan, Pippen, some of the bigger storyline setting up. Jerry Krauss is the villain for a large part of it, part of it, and just kind of the stakes and everything like that. These two episodes, we kind of got into some of the unsung guys,

Rodman, Phil, a lot of body slams, both from the Pistons and Michael Jordan for his teammates, as we'll get to later. But Rob, first off, what about for you stood out from these two episodes? Well, I think since so much of it was about the Pistons, what stuck out to me was a question, which is, have you ever hated anything in your life as much as the Bulls hated the Pistons?

Like, the glee with which Horace Grant and Jordan and Pippen were talking about beating them, it was unlike anything I've ever experienced. Yeah, no, I mean, maybe Michael George, for anyone who crosses him. I think that would be the closest proximity. But no, I thought that was interesting because while teams these days definitely have their moment in their era, there definitely seem to be more of one team giving way

to another team and to another team. We first had the Celtics giving way to the Pistons and then the Bulls. There were movements in the NBA more than now where it just feels like we're just following the big stars in the league. Well, I think in the tradition of millennials having shorter attention spans, maybe back in those days, you had more time to really dwell on your enemies, to really hone in on them, to build out that part of your life and make it something that can stand on its own. Vers today, I mean, you play against so many opponents from year to year, teams turn over so quickly. We really have lost a little bit of that aspect of it in terms of the rivalry.

But, I mean, this obviously goes down as one of the all-timers between the Bulls and the Pistons. and seeing people on both teams talk about each other, that's probably the joy of these two episodes for me. Yeah, it definitely makes for interesting documentary fodder. I do wonder at the time if it was interesting to watch the Bulls take on, I don't know who would have been the dogs of that era, because the cows were actually good, and they would normally be my go-to here,

both the calves and the pistons. But, yeah, looking back on it, seeing kind of all the Titans match up in the series you want them to match up in, and then really going at it to the point where they are literally going at it, where there is a whole section in that fourth episode where they really get into the physicality of it. And we hear this all the time from like representatives of the old guard that it was so physical,

yada, yada. But I think it was really interesting to see that rather than hear someone recall the moment or read it in text. We literally saw Bill Lambert just like execute the rock bottom on several players. you know. It's pretty wild. And like the way that, you know, not just in this documentary, but all the talk about those bad boy pistons teams in particular really kind of valorize them, not just for being physical, but for being assholes. Like John, I thought John Sally was really great in these episodes. And he, you know, he says he lays it really explicitly. Are you

willing to get injured for a bucket? Like, that's the proposition that those teams kind of put forth. And it's so fascinating to think about that and how they, you know, because they won, because they were able to beat these other great teams, I think kind of skate by. a little bit on the fact where, you know, they could have just not been assholes all the time. You know, I think of them almost in a James Hardin-y kind of way where it's like you watch James Hardin-play. I think a lot of people have the reaction where it's like, this guy is so good. Does he have to do like the weird exaggerated step-back three? Does he have to skirt the rules and stretch them and, you initiate contact the way he does?

I think about the pistons that way where it's like even if they had played a totally different way and less physically, they could have been one of the best defensive teams of all time. They have to, you know, shove Scottie Pippen to the ground? Did they have to be so deliberate in executing these Jordan rules? I think it's part of the reason they were so successful, obviously, but I don't know. They just, like, it seems like a really dickish way to play basketball, to be honest. Right. But to hear Jordan tell it, it did seem like they had to because, you know, I must have forgot this.

And I didn't realize that the Bulls kind of had the pistons on the ropes early on until they kind of instituted those Jordan rules or at the very. release kind of doubled down on them. And then you had the, I think that was the same series as the Scotty migraine game as well, right? Yeah. So it was interesting to kind of see that all kind of build up. And I think to me, that's like the most interesting part just from like a big picture story perspective of all of all these 10 episodes that we're watching. It did seem like we kind of dug into some of the particular, some of the nuance of the stories that we're kind of building. we spent a lot more time in the past. And I would have expected coming off of the last two episodes

that we would have perhaps built more in the current day, or 98, which is the current day, we're kind of like basing this around. We're really spending a lot of time almost explaining how we got there. And in this episode, you really saw Jordan's rise, right? We know Jordan these days is the guy who just like is a consummate winner, yada, yada. But they really took a lot of time to show,

that back in the day, he really wasn't that to the point where, you know, and I don't think a lot of perhaps modern viewers know this, like, he was seen at a certain point as a non-winner, which is like hilarious to see them kind of go through that. Yeah, I mean, I would hope that gives a lot of people pause in terms of the way they think about superstars and young players today because everyone goes through this scene. Like, we have such a short memory as a media apparatus. And, you know, it's not just one person making these decisions, but every outlet, every star, it seems like we go through this cycle over and over and over with every guy who comes up. And it's like, do we have to have that conversation every time when so clearly with Jordan, with LeBron, with whoever you want to

talk about, I think it's been proven to be kind of the incorrect conversation to have. And you can certainly delineate, oh, this guy is a great score, but can he do these other things? But the idea, like they, as they say explicitly in the doc, that Jordan can't make his teammates better. Like those the questions he was fielding at the time. I think some of that is founded in terms of, you know, he did have to evolve the way he played. He did have to become the kind of player who would make the past of John Paxon. But so much of that was already there. And if you're a guy who can score 63 points in a playoff game, then you are making your teammates better, whether directly or not. Yeah. When you win six titles and have two, three pets, I think you

tend to forget the series where you perhaps lose to the Celtics or you lose to the pistons in the next round and whatnot. And so it is great to kind of see that build up. And I think like you, you definitely understand Jordan in the 98 context so much more based on that, both because of like some of the hardships he went to get to the point where he won that first title, for instance, and then they went on from there. But also like, I found it really interesting. And perhaps this is just me projecting myself onto like people of that error. But like, I found like some of the media parts of it to be really fascinating. And you're also starting to see slowly but surely the pressure starting to mount on Jordan.

And I mean this independent of even just like expectations for him to win, perhaps just like dogging him that he wasn't seen as a winner at that time. But just like how the media contingent is also building around him, when you get to 98, you get to the point where like whenever there's a story, there's like a horde of media around him to the point where it looks like it's a finals game every time he decides to talk to reporters. Yeah, I think they've done a really good job. of the filmmakers in terms of laying out the influence that the media has in this story.

You know, the media is the connective, the conduit between Jordan and Pippin sometimes. They're relying, oh, Pippin said this in terms of requesting a trade. What's your response to that? There's a great scene in these two episodes where Jordan is specifically calling out Bulls beat writers for picking the calves in various scenarios to win the series. And using that as a point of motivation, there is a really strange post-game interview where after Michael hits the shot, you know, the walk-off interview is just a reporter seemingly saying, like, Michael, you stuck it, baby, you stuck it. I love that moment. It's a great moment,

but it's like, that's the follow-up to this like incredible immortal shot. And it's this reporter like cheering on Michael Jordan, which is, you know, kind of fitting in its own way. So, man, I don't know why, but this came up a couple years ago where like maybe that guy died or we were we're visiting it and the anniversary of the shot. I forgot what it was. But I don't think he was like,

he was like the fifth radio guy who just happened to be on the court or something like that. And he gives one of the most awkward post-game interviews. And then he says like, he says, yeah,

you stuck it, baby, you stuck and he kept seeing this. And then eventually you see him just get shoved out of the way of perhaps one of the most memorable moments in NBA history. Yeah,

I love little nuances like that. It's great. And then, of course, you get the super cut in these episodes of the documentary of Jordan being asked the same questions over and over and over about his last season, which I'm sure if you wanted to do that with LeBron or anyone else today, you could make an even more brutal version of, you know, be brutal in terms of reflecting on our profession of people asking the same version of the same question to the same players at every stop. But it certainly throws it all in a stark relief to see, you know, just all of them in succession like that. Right. I think the other part of this that really stuck out to me was we started to see Jordan vacillating between perhaps the mature adult who has perspective and is looking back on this more with like, I don't know, rose-colored glasses. And then you have Jordan kind of slipping into Jordan himself.

You almost wonder like what is the status of the Hennessy that he is drinking when he's giving some of these responses? Because in the fourth episode, in the second episode we see on Sunday, he really kind of dunks on all of the major players around him. At one point, he kind of takes a shot at Phil's offense because Doug Collins was, his approach was way more geared toward Jordan being this isolation score. And Phil's is much more based on like spreading the ball around. Then you have him giving what I have to imagine is going to be the big, I don't know, meme, photo, whatever from this whole series of Jordan.

giving kind of this look when he talks about the migraine game. And then Isaiah, he kind of calls out correctly, I might say, for wanting to, like, change his position on being an asshole and not giving handshakes after they finally lost the Bulls there. I thought this was like, this was a real Michael Jordan moment in this series. I mean, especially for a player like Jordan who has such mythology around him, it could really be kind of just a bulletproof vest against any criticism lobbied his way. could really make him invulnerable to anything he does wrong for the rest of his life. And he just, like, can't help himself, but like pull it back and just like show, oh, you know,

smirking at the Scotty Pipp and migraine game. It's like he gives you everything you need to really kind of pierce through the brand and the facade to see like, oh, you know, I don't even, I don't even know what the state of his drink was during these interviews because that's like the most essential Jordan possible. Like that is his ability to not only hold grudges against enemy. and opponents and, you know, the coach who cut him from his high school team or the player who beat him out. But like, the things, the, the joy he takes in recounting shit his teammates did is just perfectly, perfectly, Jordan. Yeah, you're really starting to humanize Jordan and like,

you're really starting to poke holes in some of the myths. And I have to say, even though we do that, you still see how incredible Jordan was, which I think is a really important takeaway, that even though, like, yeah, he can come off as an asshole. This, at this, at this point or maybe he did this to this player. At one point, he's just like ripping Scotty Barrow for no reason. But at the end of the day, like some of the shots are just like incredible. And just like just, you know, the accomplishments are all right there. Bobby, what about for you? Is there anything that we missed that stuck out for you? No, I think, I mean, we talk a lot about the difference between like the real version of someone versus the version that they're letting out

to the world. I mean, there's been a lot of discussion about, like, Jordan finally relenting and allowing us to watch this doc. I'm wondering, like, over these next two episodes, or over these last two episodes that we just saw, what do you guys see as, like, starting to peel back the layers of the onion as to why he would have wanted to do this doc now versus, like, two years ago, or five years ago, or 10 years from now? It's a great question. My conspiracy theory, which is probably been floated elsewhere. I know Bill talked about this a little bit. It does feel like we're at the point where people are starting to lose touch with like how great he was, not only because LeBron is coming on. And I think this next generation has a very close connection with LeBron.

And like he's very much the Jordan of our generation, I should say. It does feel like he is best remembered for being the guy on your shoes or the guy that we all associate with greatness, but we don't necessarily know the particulars of it, it really feels like in a moment to almost educate ourselves and remind ourselves, depending on where you are in the age bracket, of who Michael Jordan is. Is that the same for you, Rob? Well, I think a lot of it comes down to, you know,

when you grow up watching a player or whatever your formative basketball years are, you really kind of form an emotional attachment to them. It becomes about where you were in your life, where you saw those games. you have these very vivid memories. I think people of this current generation have that with LeBron in such a way, as you mentioned. And so it's about how do you combat that kind of perception, that kind of visceral experience of someone's life? And the way you do it is you overwhelm it with legend, right?

You put this thing that's just so much bigger that you couldn't fathom comparing the two. And so I think, you know, it's really naive to look at this and not think this is in some way about Jordan's legacy, about Jordan and the comparisons with LeBron. Like, it's always going to loop back into that for him. And I think so much of this, you know, it's really interesting how by breaking mythology, so to speak, you're at the same time kind of propping it up. You're creating a different myth. You're replacing it with something new. You're showing, you know, oh, maybe this part wasn't true or this part was exaggerated.

But we're still going to show you the clips of Michael Jordan pumping iron in the weight room and being working harder than everybody else. Do you think this doc is changing people's minds? I'm fascinated by this because, like, feels like people are, feels like people are. It feels like people are so entrenched in their corners. And like you're either a LeBron guy or you're a Jordan guy or for some reason. You're like a Kobe guy as the greatest of all time. And I just wonder if people are viewing this with an open enough mind to be like, I used to think that LeBron was the best.

And now I finally saw the footage in this 10-part doc. And it changed my mind. Yeah, I was once told that people who support like your content on Twitter are only doing so because they agree with what you said. They probably didn't read it. They're just supporting the sentiment of it. It kind of reminds me of that sort of thing where it's just like,

I think people probably are in their corners to a certain degree. That's why nobody likes my tweets because I'm just talking about Evan Fornier, and nobody thinks he's really good. They don't like the baseball tweets? Yeah, no, I don't know. Rob, do you have a sense of that? I mean, I'm curious in general,

just like if this documentary is capturing the zeitgeist in a way that I think people assume because we really only have this and now the NFL draft to really rally behind. Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard to move the needle on anyone's opinion on anything, to be honest. It requires like really diligent communication and work to do, to change anyone's mind on any subject. And so I think what this is, it's kind of an assault on the senses in a way, where it's, you know, by the timing of it, by the zeitgeisty element of it that you mentioned, you're kind of, you know, if you are a LeBron person or you see his career superior to Jordans

in some way, you're surrounded by so much Jordan conversation that I think you're going to have one of two reactions. Either you're going to be compelled to look at it in a different way in terms of, oh, maybe I'll just go check out this old game on YouTube or look at his stats a bit more, I'll pick up the Jordan rules or breaks of the game or whatever, or sorry, playing for keeps. Or you're just going to reflexively kind of push back against it as the internet is prone to do. So maybe that's the more likely outcome. Right. What did you guys think about the Rodman stuff in this episode? That was the primary focus. in the first episode.

I really went deep on him, just his backstory, and then how he ended up making his way to the Bulls. Rob, did you, I don't know, do you come away understanding Rodman,

perhaps any better? A little bit. I mean, there's a lot about Rodman out there in terms of books and articles and clips. Like, you can learn a lot about that guy at different stages

in his life just by consuming all that. I had two things that kind of jumped out to me with the storytelling here. And one of them was him coming from the pistons to the Bulls, you know, even with the spurs in between, is such an interesting move based on the relationship

between those two teams. And I think if he was anyone else, if he was any less kind of weird, I don't know that he would have been able to do that. Like if he, you know, Isaiah Thomas, like Bill and Beer, those guys are not going to be able to go from the pistons to the bulls

and be welcomed and embraced in the way that Rodman was. He had to be just kind of this really singular person that required his own set of rules and handling and understanding him where you could kind of, you know, contextualize him that way. which also kind of brought me to the idea that is Dennis Rodman the most challenging player

in his relationship to fans that the NBA has ever had? Because you have a guy who not only is kind of physical to the point of being dirty who is, you know, I think by traditional terms, unprofessional.

I mean, this is a guy who you have to give time off to go to Vegas for 48, going on 72, going on 96 hours, however long it ended up being, a guy who is kind of sexually charged. The Justin Barrier of the NBA in that way.

Speaking of sexual... charged. But yeah, sexually charged by his own choice, like, became an icon in that way, you know, breaking gender norms. Like, in terms of a kind of straight-laced, buttoned-up 90s basketball fan, I think he would make fans clutch their pearls in a way that no other player ever has. Yeah, I think the closest comp is probably Meta World Peace, or formerly run our test. Definitely embodied some of the edge, perhaps to an,

even greater extreme than perhaps even most current day players. But I think he also had a softening later in his career. So while Rodman had the Bulls experience, and so it kind of brought his antics to the forefront and almost kind of added an extra dimension to him as just kind of, I don't know, integral part of this championship machine. And he ended up,

I think the fact that he ended up getting to the Hall of Fame almost speaks to that. that he ended up being something more than perhaps he was, even after winning those titles with the Pistons. But our test also kind of softened when he turned into metal world piece, and he went to the Lakers. He was really kind of this happy-go-lucky guy. Even though he was still doing some dirty shit,

he still managed to kind of walk that line between goofball and guy who will elbow you in the stomach, whereas Rodman always seemed to stay in that lane of even when he was out of the court, he really kind of distanced himself in the media. I think that's a pretty interesting distinction between the two. I mean, I hear the Artesst's comparison sometimes. You obviously hear the Draymond comparisons a lot now in terms of their roles within a super team.

But as far as I'm concerned, until either of those guys becomes a sex icon who is also an ambassador of North Korea, I just don't have time for it. Yeah, that's the wild part. And I don't know if they'll ever get to this, like the post-playing stuff for any of these guys. somehow Rodman has topped even going to Vegas in the midst of a three-peat season with Carmen Electra by his side in his post-playing career to the point where, like, if you told me anything he was doing right now, I would believe it. So I thought that was fascinating. And then

we got to look at like kind of the upbringing of Rodman, which I don't think we really, a lot of people really know his backstory. We can actually start to pivot there and focus. specifically on episode three here. So we have a couple categories that we want to go through. Let's start with the, I did not know that. So the one for me was Rodman.

So after they had won two titles with the Pistons, I believe, and really at the height of probably Rodman's pre-Bull's career. So the one thing I didn't know is he had an incident where he brought a rifle into a car and it seemed like he got arrested

or I don't know what really happened in their particulars of it. but it seemed to be a really serious situation that based on the documentary's telling of it is really when he started to flip because right after, like pretty soon after that, I believe is when he got traded to the Spurs or within a couple years

and then when he went to the Spurs, he decided to basically come alive, he started to come out of his shell, dyed his hair, all that. Madonna all of a sudden starts to date him, which I didn't realize Madonna was dating him when he was on the Spurs, which is like,

I would really love to hear stories of Rodman and Madonna on the riverwalk and like eating frozen ice or whatever they have down there. Italian ice. Come on. Italian ice. Yeah, that's right.

I was thinking of snowballs in New Orleans and, yeah, got all mixed up. But yeah, I hadn't known that before. Had you guys? I think it's pretty safe to say that I knew none of this stuff about Dennis Rodman because like there's so much if you just like read his Wikipedia page

it would take you like an entire day to comprehend everything that went on there. But all it like, understanding of Dennis Rodman, and I guess I can be like this sort of spokesperson for the my generation, the LeBron generation of NBA fans here. But my entire understanding of Dennis Rodman is the highlights with the hair, just the most insane basketball reference page of any NBA player that I've ever just landed on before, just some of the rebound numbers and everything. And I think like dedicating a whole episode, Tim, it's interesting

the way that this documentary is the 10 parts are being split up because dedicating the whole episode to the different constellation, the stars around the constellation of MJ's world, I think is going to be sort of a crescendo to why it all matters in the end, why

they ended up breaking up, and like why he was this gravitational force that could hold all of these different planetary like figures within just one organization. I think that almost equally or slightly less so,

was the most impressive part about Jordan to his basketball skills. I mean, the Will Purdue episode is going to be awesome. Right. Yeah, I do think we'll probably get more into Steve Kerr there. I did love the moment where Jordan said that Bill Weddington makes more than Ahmad Rashad. I thought that was probably all we'll get from him going forward.

But Bobby, I think that's interesting. As the representative from the Generation X caucus, did you have any sort of idea of Rodman as a player? or was he more just kind of this like weird hair like kind of side show guy? No, I had an idea of him as a player as like the ultimate motor guy. The fact that he's like an undersized dude

who gets almost 20 rebounds in the game like I was telling you guys before we before we recorded this but I had a bet once upon a time in high school with a friend of mine whether or not Dennis Rodman actually ever averaged 20 rebounds in the game and I said no way that's the most insane thing

I ever heard. And he said, you'd be surprised and then we looked it up and it ended up being 18.7 so it was a little too close for my comfort there and Bobby what did you have riding on that bet a full on slap in the face gold slap bet we didn't have any money to bet yeah that's how they do it in suburban New York right suburban Philly but same difference it's all a city to me man um Rob what about you where did you stand on the uh I didn't know that I think it was the same for me in terms of the rightful incident. And yeah, we really don't get a lot of detail or context there. And some of it's going to be, you really can only get that from Dennis. And he's shown that at this stage in his life,

he's only going to be so forthcoming about those kinds of things. And honestly, his memory of those things might only be so good and so clear anyway. I did like the way that they talked about his relationship with Madonna on it, honestly, which was at the time and even in the time since it happened and now has been treated as this very tabloid-y thing. And I'm sure in some ways it was. but the portrayal of Madonna as a figure who kind of encouraged Dennis to be himself at a time where he seemed to what seemed to be a pretty dark time in his life, I thought was a nice change of pace from the usual like quarterback's girlfriend is ruining his play kind of situation. Right. It was the opposite of the Yoko experience, I guess. I don't know who that would be.

In the same way that Phil Jackson ultimately became his like spirit guide, Madonna was his spirit guide for taking new photos, I guess. I don't know. It is funny, though, that they did touch on that, but there was so much more that they could have gotten into. Maybe they're saving it for later episodes or something, but they didn't even get into him wearing the wedding dress and trying to get married to himself and all that. So there's a lot of exploring there to do. But I do want to jump ahead to a little bit in the fourth episode, just because it ties into this broader Rodman conversation. I didn't know that from the fourth episode. was the vacation

that Dennis Rodman was granted in the 98 season, 9798 season, which amounted to he had just like he had done his job for so long that season

that he needed to let loose and his idea of vacation was not to just go on a desert island which is what I think a lot of people do now during the All-Star break, a lot of players, not necessarily people on this podcast. But he decided to just have a rager

for like three days straight and I particularly love the moment where, so it's the third episode that crosses into the fourth episode. So the first moment we see in the fourth episode is Rodman kind of getting ready to go in Vegas. And the opening I thought was perhaps the best cinematic moment so far where we had, I don't want to be a player no more by Big Pun playing, which was dope just to start with. Then you see Carmen Electra giving a current day interview about like how wild it was. And then Rodman cutting back to Vegas with him and his friend. giving a toast to shookers.

And then he rationalizes that almost as if to say, like, he didn't want to say hookers on camera. So, like, that was the better option of the two. I have to say among the, like, many moments we see in this documentary, that has to be the most memorable for me this far. Yeah, I mean, him and his group tanking kamikaze shots and then alluding later in the Bulls gym that he was sipping on a kamikaze out of a Gatorade Cup was pretty great.

Like, there's so much, so many great callbacks to all this. Rodman stuff throughout. And I think they do a good job of kind of laying that line and trying to understand him and who he is as a professional and in his private life and how those things are connected. But I feel like we're really shorted a little bit on the 72 hours with Rodman. Like we get some great flashes and some great scenes. But I would watch like a fully fictionalized get into the Greek style film about Dennis Rodman's like 72 hours in Las Vegas and like the handler who's like desperately trying to get him back to the Bulls. And then it ends with Michael Jordan knocking on his door.

I think there's some real potential for an adaptation here. Yeah, like, first of all, how did they get that footage? Someone from NBA entertainment must have, like, just gone on the back of his hog when he, like, rides off into the sunset. And, like, I don't know how they even got there. Like, did that guy party with them? I also want to know more about the guy who is watching his motorcycle before he gets on to it. It seemed like someone from the hell's angels is just hanging out watching his motor.

recycle in the parking lot. There's so many unanswered questions there. But you're right. And I think it's especially interesting to look at Rodman in contrast to Jordan and to a lesser degree, Pippin, because they all kind of seem to say that he fit in perfectly. And it's not something that you would normally see. And I

think that the documentary did a good job of balancing Rodman as this character versus Rodman as this like ferocious competitor. I love the moment where he's on the bench with Jordan talking strategy. And you can kind of see them going back and forth and seeing how smart he is. I think at one point, Jordan calls him

perhaps one of his smartest teammates just because of the way he understood defense and all its other stuff. And then earlier in the documentary, when he's just like, he figures out his place with the pistons, he's talking about like studying the way the ball caromed off of the rim and how he knew how it would spin for a Magic Johnson rebound versus like a Larry Bourbon. I thought that was fascinating and a look at like why he was just such an integral part of this team. Yeah, for these first four episodes, I don't think there's been an incredible amount of new information if you're kind of read up on these things, if you were there to live it or experience it. There's little bits and pieces and certainly things that we forgot. Like you may have forgotten that Jordan missed a free throw at the end of game four before he had the shot against Cleveland in game five.

So there's all these little details like that. But I think what they've done a great job is kind of adding texture to these things that we already kind of thought about or knew or may have had the impression of. I've never seen Dennis Rodman doing homework before, but you see him kind of studying film and taking notes on opponents and things like that. It really does give you that side of him in a really interesting way. He's a fascinating, really one of basketball in sports all time, most fascinating characters and proof, as you mentioned, of kind of the contradictions that pro athletes and coaches and people in that world are willing to accept where, you know, they say in one breath they're like, Dennis always showed up to play. and then in the next breath, it's Dennis saying explicitly, I had to motivate myself to be able to show up for this regular season. Because it's like both these things are kind of true at once,

and your ability to reconcile them is kind of your, the key to understanding players like Dennis, I think. Yeah. The one thing I was thinking about as this was going on is what NBA Twitter would say about some of these moments if it existed back then. And my thought about Rodman was split. I honestly don't know where it would fall on.

because on the one hand, I could see him as being the analytics darling and that he gets so many rebounds and occupy so many possessions and gives you so many extra possessions that he is the ultimate is massive on him. Oh my God, the P.R. Everything would have been great.

On the other hand, oh, and also he would have been the small ball five before there were small ball fives. So really a real Moribal type of guy. On the other hand, how long do you think it would take before people would force him to start shooting three-pointers.

I mean, that conversation would definitely be there. It really would be that kind of two-pronged thing, where there's the Dennis Rodman needs to shoot three-pointers, and there's also the 10-tweet thread about his screen assists. And he, I mean, to your point about him being an analytics darling, I'm totally blanking on who wrote this, but it was kind of one of the original mid-to-late 2000s analytics cases was this huge written case for Dennis Rodman being,

I think, I believe, I don't want to misquote it, but I believe it was stating he was more valuable than Michael Jordan. And it was, you know, obviously, you know, divisive and interesting for a lot of reasons. But so he does have that appeal. But there's, I mean, NBA Twitter could not fucking handle Dennis Rodman. He would turn everyone. It would be just like a war between galaxy brains on both sides.

It would be a disaster. Yeah, I know. This is like Dion Waiter is just like to the max. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought it was also interesting. how not only Jordan and Pippin and some of those other guys interacted with him and I guess Carmen Elektra for a couple fleeting moments. I thought it was interesting how he and Phil

seemed to bond here because we did get a lot of Phil in that fourth episode in the second of Sunday's offerings here. So I think Phil can after all of the shenanigans that got pulled with the Knicks is kind of a running joke. And I think LeBron in particular helped really like lay the groundwork for that when he kind of dunked on him over the whole posse comment. And I don't think he's really, Phil has really recovered since. I think you start to see where some of the bullshit that I think Phil has become associated with now, some of like the spiritual thinking and some of like his philisms where he like hands out books and all this other stuff, you could see how back in the day he was the progressive and how for the team like the Bulls, this was all new and exciting. Whereas I look

back and I'm like, yeah, you're doing yoga, like, cool, like down dogs and isn't going to win you a championship. Can you just fucking, like, draw up a play? I don't know. I thought, I thought it was interesting. And then you eventually get to the point where he and Robin bond over, I guess, like, Indian necklaces and stuff. I mean, he's always been the kind of guy who could deeply understand someone like Rodman, I think, in a level that other coaches would just not be willing to, and then also be the same person who made the posse comment. He could be a kind of person who was deeply invested and interested in Native American lore. spiritualism and then name a drill Indian.

You know, like, it's just this, again, these contradictions of this people in this industry. And, you know, Phil has always been kind of hard to understand in that way where he is very intellectual. He is very curious. And he just says some of the deeply stupidest shit that I've ever heard of anyone in professional sports. And like the way that is mythologized and talked about and the way it's treated as like every, he's the classic like four dimensional chess kind of person where every move he makes is some genius ploy to act. this other thing on the other part of the team. And maybe, you know, it's kind of an entrepreneur, like a, he broke ground in that space, I should say,

in terms of how he's treated and regarded. I thought this was a pretty fair treatment of him overall and pretty interesting in terms of seeing the way that he and Tex Winter kind of interlocked to become kind of a combination head coach of the Bulls in a lot of ways. Despite all of the weird philism stuff, he was a good coach.

Like, as much as the triangle, like, again, gets mocked by current day standard, It worked for not only the Bulls and then later the Lakers. He's won 10 championships. And I think it's interesting when we talked about Rodman Comps and Dremont being one of them. I mean, Steve Kerr, who shows up in this documentary wearing a Golden State Warriors t-shirt or whatever, he found a way to reach Dremont in the way that Dremont hadn't been reached before. And you could see how some of the truisms to like championship teams, there is kind of a commonality there to the point.

Like even Chuck Daly. They talk about how Chuck was able to really tap into Rodman in a way that. other people weren't able to. And I thought that was a really fascinating look, uh, just at, at coaching in general. And, and in the Phil section also had one of my favorite moments where Charlie Rosen, uh, his biographer, who, you know, Charlie Rosen are familiar with he and Phil's relationship. Uh, it's a real weird symbiotic situation where he like writes everything or ghost writes everything for Phil. They have a bunch of books. Uh, they referenced it earlier when they were introducing Phil and Charlie where he wrote the book where Phil talks about doing acid.

But they were talking about his time. And I believe it was Puerto Rico, where he went after the NBA to start his coaching career. And Rosen, and this would be my talking head MVP for this fourth episode, if we're following a rubric here. Rosen tells the story about how they would kill a chicken in the graveyard and pour the blood on the visiting team's bench. And then he goes on to say the mayor of the town that Phil Jackson's, and team represented shot a ref in the way at one point.

And his only, like, the restrictions he got as a result of that, the punishment, was he just wasn't allowed to go to home games or was only allowed to go to home games and not road games, which is like, it was wild. I mean, I don't want to be the one to be making rules over here, but I think it should be a podcast, you know, hard and fast rule that if it involves, you know, ritual animal sacrifice to put a hex on an opposing team, you're automatically MVP of the episode. So congratulations to Charlie Rosen.

Your plaque is in the mail, but really great stuff. Right. I also found it interesting because Jerry Krause is obviously the guy who's kind of looming over this entire documentary, basically, probably in large part because he can't participate because he died a few years ago.

But he's very much painted as the villain in all of this. And it's very an unforgiving look at him. And you can also see the way I think Chris and Sean talked about this, and I think Bill talked about this in other pods from last week's episode, just the way he had so much power over the organization. I thought that was fascinating because not only was he able to kind of muscle everyone,

including Jordan in certain instances, but he was basically, like, he forced Phil Jackson onto Doug Collins's bench, which I don't think is something that happens a lot now. Like maybe you get like one guy on there if you're the general manager. like, you have one recommendation, but to a large extent, if you're a coach with any sort of clout, you're able to like handpick your guys and then was able to pretty much undermine Doug Collins to the point where like Collins basically admitted that like through the, in the midst of his second season, he could already tell that Phil was probably maybe not best suited to coach the team

but he was pretty much like in he was ready to do so. And so I think it really hits on the duality of, of Krause here. On the one hand, he was really like, a conniving motherfucker. It was clearly like pulling strings on this entire organization. On the other hand, it was the right move. And I think that's what's been interesting and perhaps loss in the discussion about Krause. And I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but he really did make some incredible moves, not only like getting Phil on the bench, but Scotty Pippen and all this, I guess he just like,

he just didn't get the recognition he deserved. And that led to everything that came from it. It's true. I mean, speaking of the, what would NBA Twitter make of this person? I mean, Jerry Krause, another case study where. mock GM NBA Twitter would love Jerry Krauss. I mean, he's the classic, the classic unheralded, you know, again, on paper made a lot of the right moves, you know, made the right, you know, traded for Cartwright at the right time. You know, you could certainly go back and forth on whether the Bulls would have imploded by their own devices after the 98 season, whether things would have caught up to them.

You know, guys like Rodman were already getting so much older. We're already kind of aging out of their primes. All the miles on Michael and Scotty, all the tensions that clearly existed in this team that, you know, we have an extensive documentary series about all of the ways these people's lives were complicated and intertangled and the jealousies and the tensions and the rivalries between them. Maybe it was the right time to blow up that team, even though, you know, the idea of saying, oh, I'm going to pull a power play to push out Phil Jackson at the expense of losing Michael Jordan is an insane thing to kind of wrap your brain around. But I think Krause did do a lot

of things right in a way that would have really appealed to a certain kind of NBA fan. I tweeted after episodes one and two that 2006 LeBron is begging for 1986 Jerry Krause right now. Like, LeBron got Anton Jameson and Michael Jordan got Scotty fucking Pippin. I think it's an excellent point because, yeah, LeBron tried this. And earlier in his career, and it was the wrong move. He tried to pull the purse strings a little too quickly. And it led to him just like being surrounded by shitty teammates. Like, if Jordan had like picked his guys, like you would see this.

like, and it goes deep into the Jordan rules. He loved Charles Oakley and like some other guys that he was friends with. Oh, man, I forgot which player it was. But he was like he loved this player from NC State because he grew up like watching him. They get into it in the Jordan rules, the Sam Smith book chronicling. I think it was up until that point, like the first championship season. But yeah, Jordan had a lot of bad taste in players. And you needed someone like Krause to kind of come over the top and really say, well, it's what.

But yeah, yeah, even though I, even though. agree with you. I think NBA Twitter Twitter would love him. I think Twitter GMs would hail him as the next Mori. He already had Woj's ear to the point where like Woj has written a bunch of like fawning columns about him, which

is always helpful as we see in modern day media. The whole part about him trying to break up the team basically because he hates Phil who he installed his coach to begin with is pretty like wild. Yeah. I mean there are certainly a lot of people around the league and around teams who have input in terms of putting an assistant here, putting an assistant there. Usually it's

more on the agent side where there's that connection. A head coach and an assistant share an agent and they're kind of match made together. This is certainly an interesting case where Kraus tried to get Phil in under one coach it didn't take. Try it again under a different coach. It did take. And then Doug Collins kind of no comment essentially on the transition from him to Phil. I thought was another one, a highlight of these episodes in terms of being very revealing about that relationship and his kind of read on those events. I think he tried to kind of shine it up as best he could say, oh, you know, you could tell that Phil had, you know, he had a sense that Phil could be the head coach of this team, which is a, I think there's a lot of ways to read that comment for sure.

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I just wanted to make sure you were listening to podcasts on Spotify. Here's how you do it. First, search for your favorite podcasts on Spotify's app. They have a library of over 750,000 podcasts at this point. So let's say you're searching for the Bill Simmons podcast, rewatchables or Dave Chang show or binge mode or the ring our NFL show. Once you find them, click on the follow button. That's how you subscribe. Then click on those letters near the top of the app that say podcasts. You can't miss it.

All the podcasts you're following will pop up separated by episodes, downloads, and shows. Wait, it gets better. On Spotify, you can adjust the speed of the pods to seven different speeds. 0.5 times is the slowest. I actually sound drunk at 0.5. Listen to this. Yeah, you can get drunk bill. You can also do 0.8 times, 1.2 times, which is my favorite. Everyone sounds like they had a good cup of coffee. You can do 1.5 times. You can do 2 times. And if you're completely insane, you can do three times. Here's what that sounds like.

Why would you do that? I think that's how we communicate with aliens. Anyway, Spotify's app connects directly to many of the best automobiles in the world. It even has a car play feature. That's pretty cool. It's really, really good. Best of all, it's free. Download Spotify on any device, and you are good to go. Look, I don't want to app shame you, but you should actually be embarrassed if you're not

listening to podcast on Spotify. And if you don't believe me, listen to Drunk Bill at 0.5 speed. Tell him, Drunk Bill, the Bill Simmons podcast. Listen on Spotify. I think we should talk about Michael Jordan. for a little bit. Because I don't know if you've heard of him. I just found that he was on such a heater in that fourth episode.

I mentioned this up top. But for me, that was probably some of the better moments of this doc so far, where you can slowly but surely see the Jordan that we all know is in there, who probably wasn't as polished as he was in earlier comments or throughout some of the other parts of the dock, where he really was just like, he was kneeling a couple people. We mentioned it about how his transition from Collins,

who ran the ISO kind of offense for Jordan, in which Jordan kind of came to power and really was scoring just an absurd amount of points, transition to the triangle. I was surprised that they didn't get more into that because, like I mentioned in Sam Smith, the Jordan rules, that was like a big deal. And while they touched on how Jordan did ultimately see,

power and he saw the like the power of doing so when uh paxton for instance hits those shots and wins that that pretty uh important game against the pistons uh excuse me against the lakers i don't know if it went in depth into how much of a struggle that was for jordan my understanding of those events based on the smith book was it was actually like a pain in the ass for jordan but it seemed like they kind of glossed over that maybe that was just a uh product of like you can't spend that much time in a documentary on, on, like, certain aspects you want to? I don't know. Which part of it was a pain for Jordan? Just that, like, he didn't want to give up, just control of the offense, that the triangle,

like, yes, they did show that he didn't like it, but I think that was a season-long struggle for him until he started to see things from Scotty and Paxson and some of these other guys. Oh, for sure. And if you're Jordan, I think that would be pretty understandable. Like, to the point before this, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, all these guys are saying you're the most talented player in the league, you're a scoring champion, you're able to do so much for your team. And we've seen this with guys in the modern era as well, where when you give guys so much rope, it's, you know, you kind of can't unbreak that glass a little bit. You know, once a superstar has that freedom to create so much, they have to kind of themselves come to

the realization they have to reel it back in. Because when you try to impose that structure, when you try to put other stars around them who are going to balance them out, there's just all kinds of awkwardness that can come from that. It's just hard to let go of that kind of freedom. And I mean, I have to say, too, like, more coaches in the modern era need to name their offenses. Like, we really need the mystique of a triangle. You know, Steve Kerr, you need to trademark whatever it is you're running. Like, the hearing Phil Jackson talk about, you know, oh, these are the kind of entry passes into the triangle with the 33 possible combinations of moves that result was like some real KFC 11 secret herbs and spices shit to me. I really, I really,

I really enjoyed kind of the, because the natural question is like, oh, my God, I have to know what are the 33 possible outcomes of the triangle. And you just don't get that when you're talking about, oh, the Houston Rockets offense. So you need to slap a name on that thing. Can I be honest? I don't know what the fuck the triangle is. Like, I know it involves, like, forming triangle patterns, like, with three players. But I don't know what the fuck it is. I mean, it centers a lot on post-entry.

And it's like, I mean, as with most systems, it's less about these are the plays we run versus. is like this is how you dictate your movement and ball movement and you cut in this particular way. It's hard to draw defining lines because one version of it has Shaquille O'Neal and one version has Michael Jordan. You know, two players who are great among the all-time grades, but have very little in common. And, you know, in terms of how those offenses are run, and especially when you hear guys like Michael talk about it in detail, he didn't do it much in this episode, but in other places where he can just kind of break it whenever he wants.

And I think Kobe and Shaq had some of the same freedom. So it really was more about Oh, can we find, you know, within the flow of a second or third quarter, can we get Scotty Pippin some stuff, please? I think that it was more just kind of a function of that than it is, you know, it's certainly held sacred in a lot of ways. I can't quite understand why, because really it does just boil down to what is the talent you have,

how can you access it, how can you get players to move in a way that makes sense, you know, the same shit that governs any other championship team. Right. In a lot of ways, it's just a tidy way for Phil to, almost brand his brilliance, which we saw after, like, he won his 10th title and immediately put on a hat with an X on it. Like, he's actually loki doing him, like, in between all the shit about like, Down Dog and I was on an Indian reserve doing peyote. Like, he really is kind of a

master of maybe manipulation is too much, but at the very least he's good at messaging. In a lot of ways that, like, perhaps even in the modern day context, he would probably translate really well to it. It was, it was literally just like, The triangle, even if they broke it on every possession, it didn't matter because it was the first NBA offense that was like the first principle of our offense is just spacing. Like we have Michael Jordan or we have Shaquille O'Neal and these dudes are probably going to be good at scoring on their own. So get the fuck out of the way. Like before that, every other offense was like, everybody gets as close to the basket as possible and we're all just going to try to throw it at the basket until it goes in. And then the triangle was like, all right, you got two guys up top that are getting out of the way of the three.

guys in the other corner making the triangle. And those three guys in the corner are probably going to find a way to score. And luckily enough, it was Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Shaquille O'Neal, finding a way to score. The hilarious part of all that is that now, if you run the triangle, it has no spacing at all because it all goes out to 18 feet or so.

Yeah. Yeah, I think Bill Cartwright was going to be kicking it out to Michael Jordan, regardless of what offense they were running at the time. But it did lead to kind of the rise of Scotty Pippen, based on the documentaries telling of it. And then we get another key Michael Jordan moment here, perhaps the one that might make news a little bit where he kind of scoffs off Scotty Pippin's migraine in the infamous migraine game, which I have to say, sidebar, we're really good at naming certain events in NBA history where we just like put a capital letter of whatever event happens at the time, the shot. But yeah, so Scotty famously in game seven against the Detroit Pistons gets this blinding, literally

migraine just has a horrible game and they basically tanked that series. It does ultimately spur them to like go into the offseason and start pumping some iron and really getting after it in order to beat the Detroit Pistons, which helps them out in the long run. But you could tell Jordan doesn't say it out loud, but he gives the, biggest like F-U smirk I have ever seen. And it was pretty telling. I don't know. Had he ever said anything to that effect before?

I hadn't heard that. I hadn't heard that. And certainly seeing the reaction, this is one of those things where if someone had interviewed Jordan for a written story, it would be hard to capture the exact look on his face, which is just the biggest I've never had a migraine in my life energy. Because if you've ever had even a minor migraine, the idea of going out on a court surrounded by,

walls of noise under super bright lights and then having to play against the most violent team in the NBA is suicide. It is a crazy idea. And even John Sally in his interview is saying, you know, if you're seeing double, if your vision isn't good, you just can't play it in a game. It's really impossible to do. And yet, again, quintessential Jordan to kind of question the idea of other people's pain, of other people's doubt, of other people's complications in their lives.

because, again, this is the guy who overcomes all obstacles. It's, you know, they talk a lot in these episodes about Jordan being a guy who's willing to win at all costs. And I think someone I think it was Will Purdue mentions that, you know, the Bulls didn't even know if Jordan had feelings or not. They kind of doubted that he did. And this is proof of that. Where if you're the kind of person who's willing to win at all costs, I guess sometimes you have to pay up, including forfeiting your teammates' health and safety in order to get them out there for a game seven, which, I mean, it's a competitive game. It's an important game,

but maybe you don't die playing basketball, Scottie Pippin. The funniest thing about the migraine comment is that if you watch the bad boys doc, the 30 for 30, basically Jordan is saying the same thing that all of the Pistons were saying. So he's agreeing with the people that he hates the absolute most in the world,

the Detroit Pistons, because it serves his, you know, it serves his view of competitiveness and the way that basketball should be approached. Yeah, and it's interesting in contrast to some of the earlier moments, where Jordan is just talking about, you know, how the media dogged him and he had like all these expectations and he didn't live up to it. And so, and then one way, he has like sympathy for

moments where he perhaps didn't like live up to his expectations, but anybody else he is ready to dunk on, even if it is your best teammate who you kind of praised in that second episode that we've seen already. So, okay, here, we could kind of wrap this up here. Just briefly, though, I do want to talk about the kind of the goosebumps moments that we see here. So there's a lot of retelling of some of the best moments of Jordan's career that you see a little bit more documentary footage of and you see some certain perspectives. You definitely get modern day commentary on it, almost like a director's commentary on some of the biggest plays in NBA history, which is pretty fascinating. The one for me was the shot against the Cleveland Cavaliers in the first

round in the NBA playoffs before they had really won anything. This was when Jordan was, like we mentioned before just like facing all these stouters and everything like that to the point where he names each beat writer and what they picked how many games they picked the bulls to lose in but there was there was two things that really stood out to me about this because you've seen Jordan pumping his fist and Craig Ilo like flying by when he ultimately hits that shot so we've all seen that before but the two things that I hadn't seen there was like some footage of from the baseline beforehand that really kind of put you into perspective of what was going on there which I thought it was interesting.

It really didn't do much, but it added like a certain perspective and really build the stakes in the moment. And then you have Ron Harper's interview, which was fantastic, where he asked for Jordan, the cover on Jordan because as Jordan even admits, Harper was best on Jordan. He was the best defender amongst the Cavs. But the coach put Craig Elo on Jordan and then history was made. But Harper, who is like wearing just an incredible outfit, looked like he just came. came back from cycling. He has like, he has like the finger gloves going on and he has like a winter hat on. His specific quote after finding out that his coach was going to give, uh, the Jordan responsibilities to Elo. Yeah, okay, whatever. Fuck this bullshit. Which I thought was

great. Um, so for me, that was, that was a really exciting moment. Uh, for you were, was there any like one juice bump moment that stuck out for you? I think, I think that's the one. And I mean, I think it's interesting to think about that shot in particular, because that's not a shot I've experienced watching basketball live. My first experience with the shot is as a highlight package, is as this immortal memorable thing. And so you're almost programmed to get goosebumps from it. You know, it's like you know the stakes, the importance of the moment as you watch it,

even here in context, which it's very cool. And I think it really should be kind of part of the highlight sequence to begin with to see Jordan's first shot, which is already a crazy potential game winning shot, then Elo's potential game winning layup before that. and then Jordan's ultimate jumper. Because it really is kind of like a, you know, before Derek, Derek Fisher hit that three with point four seconds left. You know, Tim Duncan hits an unbelievable shot before that that's just lost a time.

And to get the full encapsulation of the momentum of those plays is really cool. And to see, you know, the bench in between them and Jordan, you know, Jordan frustrated and hanging his head after Elo gets that give and go layup. There's so many, so much cool stuff like that that you get from this treatment, from this really expanded documentary style. And, you know, again, that's not. even from the season that they have a full camera crew around for. That's just digging back through the broadcasts all the possible angles. And you see this side of that moment, as you

mentioned, you know, a baseline angle, an alternative view, a reaction shot that's not on the usual highlight reels that really fleshes it out. Yeah, there's some real like storytelling, like, just just basics that really like bring out all those critical moments. I also thought we saw that when they finally win that first championship where they finally get a over the hump of the pistons, and then it leads to the moment where Jordan is talking about Isaiah Thomas not giving the handshake and all that. But like, we saw the literal bumps and bruises they go through in order to ultimately get past the pistons. And then you see, we have four episodes worth of backstory and obstacles and all the stuff that Jordan was going through

until he ultimately wins that first title against magic, a guy that like he always wanted to be on the same level of him in Byrd. They established that. So you have a lot of things that pay off later. And like the hug that he has with magic, like I didn't know that had happened. There's like so I think this, the doc hits on all things that I think we know at this point. If you're of a certain age and,

uh, you've been following this for a while. But there are like little wrinkles that I have found that are really kind of bring the story to life. No, they definitely do. For you, Bobby, anything that stood out? Well,

you want to talk about they should show more parts of the highlight, uh, the, let's just jump back. to episode one for a hot sec. The UNC game winning shot. Have you guys ever watched the next possession when Georgetown has a chance to come and win it? No.

It was like seven seconds left. They inbound the ball. The Georgetown point guard comes down the court. He picks up his dribble, fakes a pass to the corner, turns to the top of the key, and just accidentally passes it to the UNC player. That's what we need. Dope.

That's my largest takeaway from the first four episodes. The first episode also had a moment where Jordan was playing on that Olympic team before he entered the NBA. And it seemed based on what Rod Thorne and some other people were saying was that's when the Lee realized that they had fucked up at the very least like the San Buey pick maybe. I also thought not harping on San Buoy and not including him in this documentary was a nice touch because he's probably been dunked on for too long, both literally and figuratively. So I would have wanted to see more from that.

There are a lot of like, I wonder if they did like 20 episodes, how deep we could have gotten on some of these side stories. Well, I mean, here's a thing. We're four episodes in, and unless I'm mistaken, Tony Kooch's name has not been mentioned a single time. He's not been a single talking head interview, not a highlight. I mean, maybe he's in the... Actually, no, I think there was a scene of practice where Jordan was yelling at him. I think that's literally the only Tony Koo coach we've gotten. And in these two episodes, three and four, Jordan talked specifically about when Scotty Pippin is injured before Dennis Rodman starts taking things seriously, that he felt like Dennis had abandoned him. And I'm thinking, like, If I'm one of the rest of these guys on this team, who time shows are pretty good role players, like, what is Jordan saying about the Tony Koo coaches of the world? Oh, yeah. We're only at 1991 at this point. Well, I mean, in terms of the fast forward in terms of, you know, the last dance season.

Like, even in those games, that footage, all the recounting of that season. And while Pippins out specifically, guy can't even get his name mentioned on here? Yeah, we still have a lot of ground to cover. Like when Kyrie forgot to mention Joe Harris. I do think, like, so if we're looking ahead here and things that we kind of want to look forward to in these next two episodes that we're going to see the following Sunday, I would imagine we're at the point in the timeline where the dream team has to start coming up. The Scotty Pippen, Michael Jordan versus Koo coach and Croatia in that series has to start coming up. I'm also starting to be super interested to see if they'll start addressing Jordan retiring. That's the thing that I am most interested in seeing this entire. series is just what he says about that now that he has all the perspective from all the time past that, like, what actually led to it. Like, that story is just so foggy that I wonderful almost like give or tip his hand to like what specifically went there. Or maybe we'll just

understand him a little bit better in his decision that led to it because we're seeing it play out. So those are the sort of things I'm looking forward to. Rob, anything for you that you want to see covered in these next two? Yeah, I think they've done a really. great job so far of balancing the kind of dual track story approach, where, as you mentioned, you're kind of bouncing back and forth between these two timelines of the last dance season. And then obviously they've covered a lot of ground of Jordan's early career and the Bulls' early rise. And so seeing that next phase of, you know, getting into the first retirement and specifically getting some of the texture we've seen from the early Bulls years into the last dance season.

Because I feel like in terms of the telling of that's, you know, Jordan's last year with the Bulls, we've just kind of gotten the bullet points to an extent. Like, yes, we heard a little bit more about, you know, Rodman's vacation to Vegas. We hear a little bit more about Scotty's trade demand. But those are the biggest possible stories coming out of that season. I want a little bit more of the day-to-day of the gritty. And I don't know how much room there is for that in a, you know, a finite series that also has to tell all these other things about, you know,

the most important basketball player of all time. But I'm hoping we get a little bit more context and texture on some of the later stuff. Yeah, you're getting some small glimpses at it. So you see Jordan at one point hanging with only his security guards. I referenced it at the top with the sniff brothers, where he's just like his only real, I wouldn't say only friends in that moment, but like his confidons and the people that he's surrounding him with himself in the 98 season are the people who are supposed to protect him from like the fans and everything

like that. I think that was like an early glimpse at things that I'm hoping that they touch on later on where it's like, we're seeing. the myth of Jordan being built and all of his excellence being built in some of these earlier episodes and some of these earlier moments, I really want to see him in what gave way

to him in the 98 context of where he is in that moment and just like how that led to all that. Bobby, anything for you? Yeah, the only thing I'm looking forward to really over the next six episodes is getting some hot shot minor league baseball scout to come in and say that Jordan couldn't hit water

if you fell out of a fucking boat. You don't want to see any, old school France clips for your international basketball fame and fandom. That too. Thanks for reminding me, J.B. Yeah, early Evan Fornier talk. Baby Fornier

in the stance. Frederick Weiss just taking him under his wing. I did want to propose one new category, which is 90s style watch. We get a lot of great footage in this. The Sniff brothers actually reminded me, for one, the 90s necktie situation

is just dire. It's It's some real magic eye, stained glass window bullshit. And I'm glad it hasn't come back yet, but in the circular way that all fashion seems to, I'm really hoping we don't get that in the next 10 years or so. And then Jordan's hat situation has to be commented upon, which I think over the course these four episodes, he wears, I think by my count,

six distinct hats that I would describe as either a beret, a newsboy hat. One free one friend's tip, baby. Count the hats. One, you know, either a beret, a newsboy hat, or a Kangol situation. He really has a wide array. It reminded me of a simpler time where we were, you know, Carmelo Anthony had the increasingly like vertical cowboy hats that he would wear coming out of practices. But Jordan really, he really did set the precedent for everybody, I think.

Yeah, in my mind, the reason why we saw them in Paris for that preseason game was to establish that's when Jordan got the muse for his fashion, where he just decided to wear berets nonstop. to the point where he was color coordinating it with his jacket. I think the important question, Rob, is, did you own a Kangle or a beret at any point? Definitely had a newsboy cap, like, circa eight years old. I don't know if that counts. But as an adult man, I have not,

I can't say I've owned a Kangle. I don't think I own a Kangle, but I definitely had a beret, and I was definitely wearing it backwards, much like Michael Jordan. I'm going to need photographic proof of that. We'll put it in the show notes. Everyone look for the picture of JV and a ray, please.

Right, yeah. I'll definitely dig that up for our next episode. But until then, we will be waiting until Sunday to talk about this again. That's it for us for the Ringer NBA show for Rob, for Bobby. I am Justin. We'll talk to you next time.