The Ringer NBA Show - Is Free Agency Actually Free? | The Answer

Episode Date: August 6, 2021

Chris and Seerat are joined by The Ringer’s Rob Mahoney to talk about his Ringer Ph.D. video explaining how NBA contracts work (1:27). Then they touch on a variety of topics related to the offseason (3:05), including whether draft picks matter, if teams get punished for drafting well, and much more. Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Guest: Rob Mahoney Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David Chewaker and Kaz host the Mass Man Show every week, breaking down everything in the world of professional wrestling. Check out the Mass Man Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Ryan. It's The Answer. I'm joined as always by Sirot Sohey. What's up, Siritt?

How's it going, Chris? Today we don our tax aprons because we're talking about free agency. We're talking about sign and trade deals. And we're talking about it with the Wizard of the Cap. The Bobby Marks of the Ringer of Bobby Mahoney. Oh, boy. No, Rob's joining us today on the answer. The question we're asking is,

I was trying to think of the cool way to say it, but I think this is the best one. Is Free Agency actually free? Because we've watched these last week of Free Agency. Rob put up a video on Monday on the Ringers YouTube channel that you should check out, which goes into the details. It's a Ringer PhD,

so it's this really cool animated video, and it goes into the details of the nature of max contracts and sign-and-trade deals and how the league has kind of evolved, especially since Durant made the move from the Warriors to the net. So, Rob, thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, my tax apron is freshly pressed, laundered.

I'm ready to get messy today. Let's do it. Sarah, this was your idea to do this episode. Tell me what it was that jumped out at you about Rob's video before we start lauding Rob with praise because I think that this video wound up being really pressy this week. I mean, Rob has too much of an ego for us to really lot him with too much praise. But it was a really, really interesting.

interesting video. The reason I was interested is, well, you and I were talking about how, you know, it's really hard to build a team and keep it. You almost get punished for having, you know, really good developmental programs that then, you know, force you into a position of like, okay, well, who do I pay now? Or do you just pay everybody? A lot of teams aren't really in the position to do that. Some of them are. But I thought that Rob's video was a really interesting framework for that, because he talks about the max contract, but he also talks about all of the different ways that teams are building.

I feel like, you know, there's like a hundred different ways to build a good NBA team right now. And he kind of got to that with how he showed how many different ways you can put a team together. The thing that was most interesting to me was sign and trades basically kind of like being the new free agency. The Warriors, for example,

Rob's video were an example when when KD left. He got a sign and trade which allowed him to get paid because the Warriors had his bird rights. And in exchange, the Warriors got DeAngel Russell, who is now turned into Andrew Wiggins and Jonathan Kaminga. So, you know, yeah, I think, I think first of all, Chris, you're framing. Is free agency really free? Is exactly it?

because everyone's getting signed and traded these days. Yeah, it seems like Rob that GMs have realized if I'm going to lose I can't go home broke. If I'm going to lose this hand, I have to go home with a couple of chips, right? Yeah, I mean, we're just seeing a big change in the way that these teams do business,

especially in the off season. You don't tear your team down to studs anymore to get LeBron, Wade, and Bosch. That's just not really the way it works. Even the Nets, you know, they were operated, they could have operated as a counterint. AppSpace team and signed Durant and Irving outright. That's not the way they ended up doing it. They signed and traded for Durant, as Siritt said, they worked in more pieces. They found more ways

to get more guys in the door. And they kept all those deals that then they used to get James Harden ultimately. So that's kind of the new template in a way. Not everyone is Brooklyn. Not everyone is luring Kevin Durant. But it's about what can you get in exchange for these guys as they're going out the door? And if you're bringing them in, as long as you're willing to be hard capped, which is like the one real cost of acquiring a player in a sign and trade. How can we get creative about our financing here to get the most talent we possibly can on our roster? Yeah. And you made a mention of, you made mention of signing guys into CAP.

Like, I think that maybe in five years, but even maybe today, we're going to look back at the last 15 years of NBA history and we're going to say, okay, so LeBron going from Cleveland to Miami the first time was the sea change moment. And that gives way to years of, most notably the Knicks, I think often just being like, we're just saying. save in our cap room for that next season. And, you know, I would say also the Mavericks were also a big perpetrators of this behavior where they would just be like, you know, we just love our program and we're just going to keep that cap space free in case DeAndre Jordan wants to come

or in case this person wants to come. Maybe we can get in on Janus or something like that. And it was always keeping this. It was until they drafted Luca that they were basically acting as if they were just that one free agent megastar away from getting back into the finals. So the Knicks and the MAVs spend most of the

early part of the 2010s doing doing this like let's save cap room let's go after free agent stars then the warriors create a kind of homegrown dynasty add durrant on because of that one wrinkle in the salary cap the salary cap going up that year then lose durant but not they don't fall flat on their face right sir like they they got something out of that even if it's now taken them two or three seasons to maybe shake off the cobwebs from durant leaving and this is probably the most excited people have been about the Warriors. Obviously, the Clay Thompson injuries have had a lot to do with it. But this sort of anticipation for this upcoming warrior season,

people have got them pegged in the three or four seed, if not the two seed. Yeah, yeah, and you can see, I mean, obviously it's not the same as having Kevin Durant, but you can see that there is something that you get. And it's, I think what you said about how GMs are now in this position where they don't want to necessarily just, they want to get something back is exactly it.

almost like you can just, you can hedge now if you have a free agent that wants to leave. And this has been happening for a few years now. I think it used to be that if you had a guy demanded a trade, it almost feels like an evolution, right? Like first, we started to have a lot more trade demands. And I think, you know, executives started freaking out about player empowerment. And then I think the Anthony Davis trade might have been the moment that that changed everything. When we look back at everything, I think that might be the one because it's not like the Pelicans got an even return back for him.

But they got Brandon Ingram, who is a real All-Star, who is going to continue to get better. And they got pieces around him. They got Lonzo, who they flipped to the Bulls now in a sign and trade. Didn't get a lot in that deal, at least in my opinion, but the Bulls, in trying to acquire Damar, gave up some real pieces, right? Like they gave up, they gave up Thad Young. That's probably the biggest piece alongside, alongside two first rounders, I think, and another second rounder. Like, that's, that's an actual haul.

That's basically, like, if you were trading for Demar de Rosen in midseason, that would be pretty close to the deal that you would be, that you'd be trying to, trying to make for him. So, yeah, it's really interesting. I feel like it's, like, it's become the natural reaction to the player empowerment era. Like, okay, we'll send you where you, need to go because, I mean, we just, I think they've realized that, you know, once a player wants to trade demand in this era, like, there's not a lot you can do about it, but you can,

you can bounce back. You know, it's fascinating about what you just said is you, you called Lonzo Ball to the Bulls, like, flipping Lonzo Ball. And so much of the sign and trade stuff, but that, like, I'm sure there's lots of people who are just like, you lost Lonzo Ball to the Chicago Bulls. You know what I mean? Like, there, in some ways, the sign and trade allows the GM losing a player to be like, I didn't lose. I flipped. I didn't lose per se. You know what I mean? Like, if you're Griffin,

you can be like, look, Lonzo was going to leave. But look, I get these useful floor spacer. Tom Sataransky's interesting. You can be a backup PG. We need somebody who's like got his experience, Garrett Temple's experience. We get Devante Graham. And like, that then becomes the narrative.

Whereas like, if you look at Pelicans Twitter as like a bellwether of like how people are feeling about it, they're not feeling good. they don't, like, there was a lot of, like, Lonzo sentiment, but then there's just a general, like, I think the Pelicans went into this offseason saying, like, we're Kyle Lowry players, we're even, like, outside Chris Paul players if we can, like,

tug the right heartstrings there. So, Rob, like, is this really a matter of, like, basically, like, how you merchandise your, your successes and failures when you, with the sign and trade allows you to be like, I didn't quite, I didn't, I didn't lose a guy, I flipped him. For sure. I mean, and that's what makes it, as Sierra was alluded to, almost a mechanism,

of player empowerment. The idea that the bird rights are what allowed these teams to stay in the game. I think the Raptors are probably an even better example of this. Who, you know,

I think we were all kind of assuming Kyle Lowry was going to go somewhere and by staying in the game as long as they did, by going through the trade deadline, which a lot of people had a lot of questions about why they didn't deal him then. They're able to get at least reportedly

pressures to chew us so far. They're probably going to end up with Goran Dragich. There may be picks involved in that. That's certainly better than that guy walking out the door. And with New Orleans and Lonzo, once you've made the decision that you don't want to resign Bonzo Ball anymore,

that he isn't part of your plans, why not get a Garrett Temple for your trouble or Tomas Satteranski for your trouble? It makes all the sense in the world for these teams to recoup something. And as you're saying, there's a lot of like PR appeal and, oh, this is actually a trade. Oh, we're actually, you know, these are veterans who are going to help our core or whatnot. There's a lot of spinning that can be done with that. But fundamentally, it just helps these teams not go home empty-handed when guys want to leave. Sarah, do you think in Chicago's case, that's one where, you know, they've been on this never-ending rebuild for such a long time.

And instead, this season, they obviously just felt like they wanted to get super competitive. And even if all of the guys that they're bringing in don't make complete sense in like the Sun's lineup way that players can make sense with one another, like they got themselves like four guards. But they're way better guards than they had last season. and that will take them where they need to go, which is probably the upper middle pack in the Eastern Conference, right? Yeah, I mean, first of all, I just think this is a level of creativity

that we haven't seen from the Chicago front office in a very long time. Shout out Gar-Pax. Yeah, shut out Carfax. Far too long of a ring for those dudes. I'm a retired, retired Bulls fan. And I think if this keeps up, I might go back. I might become a team.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you heard it here first. I also think that they are... Do you have gear in, like, vacuum-sealed bags that you can open up? Like, is there stuff that's on ice? I have a few things. The... I have this cap that just has a C on it, and it's gray with a red, which is definitely my style.

Like, I don't want to, like, go out with, like, a full snapback, you know? Sure. Subtle to, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. I would hate to actually express myself ever. You got the Bulls Jordan cursive rookie year. I think it's fake, but I don't care because that is the coolest jersey ever. I don't really think you can get a real one unless you have all of the money in the world.

Sure. So yeah, yeah. But, you know, I think they also really are positionally flexible. Like you said, they have a bunch of guards. But DeRosen, who right after I said the Derosen thing before, I remembered, he also came to the Spurs. in a trade, not a sign in trade, but, you know, Kauai Leonard demanding a trade. That was one of the reactions to that, too. And I feel like, you guys, obviously, we all know about the, the pitch that Hinky made to the Sixers about how, you know, the Houston Rockets were able to turn a whole bunch

of little trades into the big hardened trade, like a lot of different asset acquisitions. If anybody wants to go check that, I don't remember it now, but if anybody wants to go check it out, like, it is, it is pretty well-worn. Every team is that now. Like, There is a chain from, like, if you look at the Spurs, for example, there's a chain from Kauai to DeMar to Thad Young and to the picks that they are getting. And for the Bulls, too, like, it's just really interesting. And I feel like if you're in front office now, like, do you even care if you have cap space? Like, you can make things happen if you, like, if you look at the heat, like, look at all the love that Andy Ellesberg is getting right now for his cap mechanisms,

his ability to help the Raptors not really necessarily lose anything on not trading Lowry, which people were actually freaking out about a little bit after he wasn't traded after the deadline. And I feel like they actually got a better deal now than they would have then. Because back then, I think, I mean, they were obviously trying to get Tyler Hero. It seems like he was never really on the table ever. but some of the Sixers packages just didn't really make a lot of sense either

and now they have precious Chua who is like the ultimate Raptor and you know we'll see what they do with Drogra maybe they'll keep him maybe they'll flip him somewhere else too and we can continue and then you know maybe

meet and do this episode again in the off season later in the off season no I mean like Cap Space is pretty immaterial it really is kind of a state of mind in today's NBA and really there's two uses for it One of them is kind of, you know, like look at what the Nix did with Evan Fornier.

You may, you know, not feel great about paying Evan Fornier $18 million a year to start. But that's really a move that you make to help facilitate a deal down the line. That's contract in the door in case Dame Lillard decides he wants to move on. So that's option one. Option B would be like what the Hawks did last summer when they know Trey Young's extension is coming. It's going to obliterate every ounce of cap space they have. So let's sign Bogdanovich. Let's sign Danilo Galinari.

Let's get these guys in the door. And both of these kind of serve the same end, which is let's just amass as much talent as we can because we're not going to bank on free agency, especially if we're not a glamour market. And we're just going to have to swing trades for these guys. We're going to have to, you know, daisy chain all of these moves together

until we find our James Hardin or find our whoever. It seems like a plausible way for a lot of these teams to operate now. Yeah, it seems like the Knicks, like, they got laughed out a little bit for re-upping the Tibbs guys that they brought back in for two, three-year deals like Noel, uh, Nerlans and, and Derek Rose and Alec Berks. And it's like, is this really what you guys, thought you guys were players now? Is this what we're doing? But if you take a look at those deals and even the four deal is like, what is that three and then the team option for four, right?

Very quickly all those, all those contracts can be like, I just watched the big short again last night. They can become just so perfect. They can become diversified. You know what I mean? Like, it's like you can take all this triple B rated stuff and then put it in another pile and be like, no, no, no, these are flippable contracts. These are make weights in salary. You know, like these, you can say anything you want about this stuff. So it's really interesting. I mean, Rob, the two major points I took away from your video other than like how enormously important the, the, the net's acquisition of Durant was for like the way we think about these, these offseason moves was exactly what we're saying. There is no such thing as a salary

recap, and there is really no such thing as an untradable contract, which is we've certainly seen over the last week, right? God, now that you mentioned the big short, I'm wondering, why didn't we just get Margo Robbie to do our ringer Ph.D. video with a glass of champagne? No, you're absolutely right. In a lot of ways, I think... I think your voice is far more soothing, honestly. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Guys, thank you so much. In regard to the untradable contracts and contract values in general, I think our gut response during free agency to... oh, 80 million dollars for this role guy.

That seems like a lot of money. It's just a little outdated because these contracts are so movable. I'm not saying no one is overpaid. I just don't think it really matters as much in a world where cap space doesn't matter. These are just numbers that owners have to pay these players and that fill into a trade machine. They're not really assessments of value. They're more so just kind of like indications of where the marketplace was at that particular moment.

And then you move whoever you need to move down the line. three of the five biggest contracts in the NBA have basically been traded in the last year. It's, you know, you can get off that money, you can find takers. You know, as we've been talking about with some of the spin involved with this stuff, it's easy to sell a fan base

and, you know, put it on the team website. Oh, we acquired X-Time, MVP, or X-Time All-Star and MVP Russell Westbrook. Like, that's easy copy to write. And you could do the same thing if you're the Bulls a year from now or two years from now with DeMar de Rosen. You know, any player who's celebrated,

who's at that level, even if you're giving them a lot of money, those are movable deals under the right circumstances. Yeah, we really just don't. Like, this is so different from the NBA that I came of age in reading Bill's columns,

even. And a lot of, like, what Bill wrote about was, like, his obsession with, I can't believe they signed this guy to a six-season deal.

Now they're going to be, like, like, capped throughout this time. And, like, they won't be, and it was like, about the wolves or about whoever.

But that was, like, basically, like, lens through which we viewed all transactions in the NBA was just this like there are stupid GMs and then there are smart GMs. I don't know if we, I'm sure we have stupid GMs quote unquote right now, but they all seem to be kind of operating from a very similar playbook. Like there doesn't seem to be any team out there with, I mean, sometimes I wonder about like what the Spurs have been doing over the last couple of years, but I don't think that they're stupid in

any ways. I just think that they saw something in their team that maybe no one else saw or or or had a vision for the team that no one else had. But yeah, like, it seems like this is actually become a kind of homogen, like a hegemony of, like, team building, right, Siritt? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe, you know, maybe it's not the Spurs that are stupid, and Zach Collins' agent is actually just incredibly smart. That's true.

Like, the untradable contracting is really interesting to me because I think that once the market gets set, like, that's the biggest thing, right? Like, the market got set to a point where now a lot, of guys are kind of on these so, like, so-called untradable contracts. So you can kind of just trade those guys with each other. Like the Westbrook, the Westbrook trade history is probably the most, most obvious example of this. Westbrook was traded. First of all, when Westbrook signed that deal with OKC, the notion was that it was, he got the Supermax, the notion was

that it was one of those deals that he would be more valuable to the Thunder than any anybody else because of what he means to the organization. Right. And that it didn't necessarily matter that much because that the contract was untradable because of that, you know? Obviously, never doubt Sam Presti, who was able to flip Westbrook for, for Chris Paul and a bunch of picks. Chris Paul was also one of those supposedly untradable contracts.

He has now gotten another version of that contract. And then Westbrook gets traded for John Wall. another guy on a supposedly untradable contract. But when you have so many of these guys, it doesn't necessarily matter. And now obviously Westbrook has been traded once more to the Lakers. So yeah, there's no such thing as an untradable contract.

The other thing I think is really interesting is that, like, as much as it gives certain players more options in terms of the places that they'd like to play, especially like the superstars and the top five guys in the league, it kind of puts not only executives at the whims of their decisions,

but also everyone else in the NBA. Like Evan Fornia just signed a contract with the Knicks and he could very well be in Portland next year and, you know, anybody could telegraph that. Like I'm sure he has an understanding of that. DeMarre de Rosen, you know, Westbrook even. Westbrook, like you look at Westbrook as a guy who gets to make his own decisions.

Even Chris Paul, right? And it just turns out there's very, very few guys in the league like that. Like the superstars, I mean, we can say it all the time, the superstars are starting to run the league, but there's also a sweetener in there for a lot of other people. Yeah, like, I was thinking about like the Satteranskis and the temples of the league. Yeah.

And just how many teams that those guys could watch end up playing for, you know, in the last five years of their career because they're useful, but they are moderately priced. So they can go into the back end of a deal for somebody either like very talented, like Lonzo who's emerging or somebody who's very expensive, like say, DeRosen or whatever, who's coming in. But like that band of player who's like, I'm the seventh or eighth guy, or I'm the ninth guy, like, I'm your backup point guard, maybe your third guard. those guys are going to get traded constantly in this world, right? Because especially like going off of this week and going off of seeing,

you know, Westbrook get traded for the third time in three seasons, I'm completely willing to believe that say, John Wall could get dealt at the trade deadline. Do you know what I mean? If not this week, this coming week. You know, like, there's no, if John Wall demonstrates that he's healthy and he's like playing good point guard and can give a playoff team really good minutes, you're telling me that there's not a playoff team out there

who wouldn't rather have John Wall running point guard than say like, I don't know, like, Raul Netto or something. Like, I have no idea. But like, if none of this matters, then you can start playing basically NBA jam, right? Well, and it may not have anything to do with whether John Wall is good or not.

As Sarah just ran down, as long as you attach a first round pick to Russell Westbrook's deal, you're going to find people who can take, who are willing to take that on. And, you know, it can work just the same with the Garrett Temples and the Tomas Aderancey. He's like, Garrett Temple got a nice deal for his trouble out of this. But ultimately, you know, those guys are put into a machine as salary.

That's kind of their function in moves like this. And again, if you attach picks to that, that's what gets you where you want to go. That's what gets you. That's the ultimate currency of the NBA right now in a way that was different from before. I think previously, teams really valued first round picks because they were cost protected. You know, the rookie scale was and is one of the best deals in sports. now I think they probably value them, or at least should value them, more because when a player decides they want to come to your city, even if it's on a sign and trade, even if, you know, they have four more years under contract. The draft capital is what makes that happen. That's what kind of facilitates all these moves flying around the NBA right now.

Yeah, you know, Seer, that was the other thing you wanted to talk about today. It was like whether or not draft picks actually matter. Like, they matter when you make the pick or having the picks are important, but doesn't seem like they have the same value. when you're attaching a first to get Devante Graham, it's like, what do you really saying about the value of that first round pick? With no disrespect to Devante Graham, who's pretty good. And if you get to Ravante Graham back, you might be saying yourself, if I'm picking 14th, what are the chances I'm going to get a guy better than Devante Graham, right? I mean, I think that might be more of a commentary in the Pelican's front office than anything else, really.

I'd actually argue that they're more valuable than ever because, well, first of all, like the players coming into the draft are just more NBA ready than ever. Like you don't necessarily have to. And you also, I mean, the intel is getting better. And there are certain guys that I'm starting to suspect, maybe this is a different episode. I'm starting to suspect that the notion of NBA ready has never been more accurate.

I think we used to get a lot of like, oh, yeah, this guy's NBA ready. And it turns out that, you know, they just absolutely weren't. Players are just better now. And they can defend now, too. So you can actually have some rookies and second year players contending for championships. like we saw it with the heat.

So that added value just makes makes draft picks more valuable. To the John Wallpoint, that makes a ton of sense because the Rockets, I think other than OKC, they have the most draft picks in anybody else in the league. So they could hypothetically get off of any contract that they want, which also, I mean, like, this kind of adds even more value to what OKC can do from here too, because they obviously, I mean, they just paid Shay,

who I love, but out of all of the guys who got a Supermax is the one that you probably have the most questions about, but it's still, and I think me and Rob were talking about this earlier, but even if he just ends up being the player

that he is right now, that's still a good contract for them. And if they ever need to move off of him, it's not going to be that difficult. There was a rumor they were thinking about moving off of him two weeks ago. Like there was a rumor that they were putting him with more draft picks in a deal to the Pistons for one,

because they wanted to have an Oklahoma superstar in Oklahoma City. I don't know whether that's true or not. Shea, obviously, his feelings weren't so hurt that he didn't sign that deal. But, like, that's completely true. The Oklahoma City thing is a great segue to talk about how some of these teams, a Houston and Oklahoma City, to some extent in New Orleans, a Toronto, however, Atlanta, especially, how they're sort of, trying to build through these youth movements.

Now, Atlanta did something very wise, like you said, where they knew they were going to have to pay Tray, so they brought in veteran help the year that they could before they had to put him down. But in the trade rumor mill over the last week or so, it was a lot of talk about Cam Reddish getting dealt by the Hawks. Because quite simply, decent, useful player showed some flashes last year.

The Hawks straight up just can't afford to pay all their good young guys. And it's going to be Herder or Reddish, but they have to make a decision. here because otherwise they're going to get over exposed salary-wise on a group of guys that they're not entirely positive outside of Trey can contribute to a deep run playoff team this last year accepted. So are we at a point now, Rob, where teams are being punished for drafting well, and especially these teams like Oklahoma City and Houston, who have this grip of picks all in and around the same generation? Like, is it almost cumbersome to be dragging around that many

draft picks because at a certain point you are going to have to choose which one of your kids is your favorite. It's a great question. And in a lot of ways, kind of the existential question of the thunder right now is what is the value of having all of these seemingly redundant picks? I would argue that for OKC and Houston's in this position too, as Sir had mentioned, you know, every team over the next few years that doesn't have the picks they need to get the deals they want to get done done, the thunder are now the bank.

They get to decide the terms of the loan. They get to decide, you know, like, we'll give you. this future first we have from whatever team, but you need to give us an unprotected first in 2028 or whatever. So there are ways to kind of grease these wheels if you're the Thunder where you just become a facilitator

for pretty much everything that's going on in the NBA. So that's kind of the value of it before those picks are realized. The Hawks are on the other side of that where they're getting to the point where they're going to have start paying guys pretty soon. And their problem isn't, I think it is getting overexposed in terms of salary,

but they also have the problem where they just don't have enough minutes to play all of these guys and get the most out of them. So it's almost a question of, you know, are there players on our team, whether it's Cam Reddish or John Collins or whoever, who are just going to be more valuable to someone else than they are as a role player to us?

Right. I don't think there's a James Hardin in that mix, per se, like Oklahoma City had when they kind of had to sort out their problem with a... John Collins would disagree with you, by the way. Maybe so. But there is enough talent there where you have to think about, like, what is Kevin Hurder worth to another contender? What is Cam Reddish worth to another team

who might see him as a bigger part of their developmental plan versus for us he's just going to be one of our guys. I think this is where the Hawks can really learn from the Thunder. And honestly, the Thunder can learn from the Thunder too. And obviously all of these mechanisms, any idea in any field of work, things build on each other. There have been teams that have been doing things like this for a long time. Just being in Toronto, watching the Raptors slowly asset,

asset carve into getting a Kauai Leonard, which also brings me, I just want to want to talk about, you know, what this means for tanking in the future. But let's stick to to OECC and the Hawks for now. But I think that, you know, they can look at some of the things that they've done in the past. They can look at what other teams have done in the past. And I think the biggest thing that sticks out to me is like for the Hawks now when they're looking at, you know, first of all, they have to evaluate really who they want. I actually think they can keep everybody if that's, you know,

if they want to pay everybody. But if they don't, one thing I'd say is when you make these trades, trade for a sure thing, right? Like when the Thunder traded James Hardin, looking back at it, the biggest mistake that they made was not understanding where they were on their timeline and trying to get guys

that they could develop when they had just gone, they had just made a finals run. And I think if they had maybe gone for some maybe lower upside players that were still really solid role guys that can contribute to a championship roster, maybe the Thunder actually win a finals. And we look at that trade completely differently, even though Hardin ended up being an MVP,

you can easily, anytime a team wins a championship, you can easily say, well, it was worth it. So I think that's one thing that the Hawks can look at. And I think it's also easier to do that, now because teams are on a different timeline all the time and everyone has a plan and everybody kind of knows what everybody else's plans are. Yeah. Like there's winning, winning and losing trades is not so much a thing anymore as long as you've got two smart people in the room who have different motivations. There's also like the the Zag media economy where it's just like,

no, actually, that's a great trade. You know what I mean? Like there's like, there's always going to be somebody who's just like, oh, you know, nobody understands what Sacramento is really up to here, man, I do, you know? Like, right, right. Like, oh, man, you guys don't even know what Jeremy Lamb's going to turn into. Guys, I have to be honest, I think I zagged on the James Harden trade. I think I said Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, I think this is going to work out for them. Didn't work out for me, as it turns out. No, but, you know, that's a really good point, sir, because you talk about teams learning from one another. You talk about each thing, that each sort of event that happens in the NBA

is part of a continuum building on each other. And I think that that's sort of the secondary fascination point with off-season transactions. Like obviously all the gossip and it's like so-and-so met with so-and-so in Tokyo. It's like check out Dremont's Instagram, whatever.

Like that's one part of it. But the other part of it is, what if you've got all of these NBA teams who decide to do things in a similar way? Like if you do have a group, all these teams sort of all thinking in the same direction momentarily, at least, then what if we then start to see like an MLB style buyers and sellers? You know what I mean?

Like, what if you start to see teams who are like, well, we thought we maybe had a core with Brandon and Zion, but Zion got hurt. So why don't we trade Brandon Ingram? You know, like I think that that could become like, you know, a little bit more common where teams don't get overcommitted to the Ben Joel model. You know, like we've got two guys. It's now our responsibility to spend seven seasons building around them.

Does that make sense at all? Explain to me the MLB. Okay, so as we just saw, like, one of the craziest major league baseball trade deadlines. I'm not even that huge of a baseball fan anymore, but like I did note that, you know, the Dodgers basically acquired half of the all-stars in major league baseball. The Padres were very active. The Giants got Chris Bryant. The Cubs, for instance, sold off the core of the,

team that won the World Series four years ago. They were just like, we're not good. These guys are all coming up in free agency sooner or later. We're going to get back this huge hall of prospects for them. And part of the reason why I think those trades work is because all the teams are thinking the same way. You get to a certain point in the season. You decide whether or not you're good or not.

If you're not good, you basically put all of your best players up on the trading block. And we're very precious in the NBA where we're like, no, Dame and CJ just need a big wing. That's just, they're just one guy away. Sixers. We just need like one stretch five or a real point guard to get into, you know, but what if you get into a place where guys are a little bit more like yeah, you know what? Like, it's not happening for us. So Lillard is available for the, to, to the highest bidder. And, you know, you do see some, a crazy thing like the Thunder trading Shea for Lillard with picks. You know, you never know. If we could back up and I could build off Sirius question for a second. Could you just explain to me what the MLB?

is. What's baseball? Yeah, it's this thing. Yeah, it's like Ken Burns made a movie about it. It was pretty cool. They spit a lot. Yeah. No, I think the counterpoint to that would be

teams like Phoenix and Atlanta this season, where you look and you see maybe we are unknowingly one piece away or maybe we're closer than we think we could be. That's what makes it tough to commit to a full buyers and sellers thing. And I think hand in hand with that is the flattening of the lottery odds.

The idea that, Even if you are a seller, there's only so far you can sell while benefiting your team. Like, yeah, you're going to get off the salary. Maybe you bring a couple of young prospects in the door, but it's not going to guarantee you better draft placement, anything like that. As we've, you know, OKC case in point. You know, they did everything they could to have a debaelsky. Yeah, exactly.

So you're going to end up in that spot sometimes if you go into a full-on sell mode. But that doesn't mean there aren't kind of degrees to which NBA teams can and already do, already do stuff like that. Yeah, it's something that, um, Darrell Mori told me a couple years ago where, you know, he just, he just feels that there are enough teams on different timelines that you can find something. On the note of Mori, by the way. Did you guys see he tweeted that the Sixers had the best starting lineup in the regular season? Yeah, when they re-signed Danny Green.

Chris. Thoughts. I mean, he's not wrong. I just think that that's hardly like the point. Like, I think we all realize that it's not the regular season. That's the problem. It's,

it's, it's, it's, it's tough. I, I am, uh, personally,

I am of the belief that, uh, we're going to see some stuff happen after the Olympics. I, I just think that that's, that's the reason why it's been all quiet. And, um,

yeah, I don't know whether it's Lillard or not necessarily, but I just think that when these guys get back from the games next week, that will probably, probably see some stuff loosening up because there's still there's still some teams that made moves this past week where I'm like this is to set something else up right like you guys sign these dudes because you need you know you need to make weights for a salary or you need to do something else right it can't possibly be that this is what you're going into and we talked we were talking

before we started recording about the Celtics like I think that there's a couple of teams there where people are like there's something else coming right well I mean who has time to engineer trades when you got to wake up at 5 a.m. to watch race walking. Exactly. It's a busy slate on peacock. What else do we want to talk about here? Because I think that there are so many different layers of this onion. Rob, was there something when you were making the video about the max contract things? It's always fun to dive deep on a subject like that.

What was the thing that you learned that you were like, I had no idea that this was the case? I think one of the things that clarified for me is, you know, you just have to be reminded sometimes of all of the different conditions that come with all of these cap exceptions. You know, like how you sign for a mid-level versus a minimum deal versus a max deal. Obviously, there are different length requirements that come with that. There are different rules that come with that and how it changes the way a team has to operate. Like the Nets, for example, just the idea that basically they went through all of this rigmarole with Kyrie Irving's

guarantees and bonuses and conditions of his deal with the sign and trade for Durant, all to get like a little tiny bit of cap room so that they could get Nick Claxton in on a slightly longer deal than they otherwise would have. Like that's the level that you have to go if you are one of these creative front offices to get even an ounce better as a team than you otherwise would have. But that can be what separates you in a playoff series. Like Nick Claxton has become a really important part of their team because we're also going to throw, you know, $40 million at D'Andre Jordan in the process.

I just don't understand how D'Andre Jordan's still on that team yet they're able to sign like Patty Mills and all these guys and get Blake back. I feel like we should come up with different names for some of these exceptions. like there should just be a LeBron vet exception, you know, or a heat culture exception. We're like, wait, how did that happen? How did you get this guy? Like, I don't understand. I do think, too, and we've been talking about this, you know, talking around this idea in a lot of ways in this conversation.

But just the idea that the leak has really weeded out a lot of the really bad GMs, a lot of the really bad front offices. And it's what contributes to a lot of the group think we've been talking about and kind of, you know, the idea that you now have to have different positions in your timeline in a trade. for it to make sense versus picking on somebody. The NBA is in a pretty smart place, by and large, overall. I know, you know, everyone is dumb. I get it. Everyone's making mistakes. All these deals are bad, et cetera, et cetera.

I get the backlash and the response on that stuff. But by and large, NBA teams are pretty well run right now. And that puts everything in a very dynamic place in terms of, you know, the future of the sign and trade, the future of all these different mechanisms. You know, we're just starting to look at these things in a different light than we did five or 10 years ago, where is the NBA cap-wise and, you know, salary management-wise in another five years, we could be looking at a totally different landscape. What I'm really curious to see in the next CBA is if the owners and the execs are basically,

if they are okay with how things stand, because bird rights obviously were meant to help, help teams retain their stars, right? And that was a big thing in the last CBA, just how do, of these teams retain the players that they have. And it hasn't really necessarily worked out that way. What's happening is the guys are getting paid and then they're going somewhere else. And obviously there is some sweetener like we talked about that comes with that. I'm just wondering, like, I'm wondering how the execs actually feel about that if this is a scenario they like.

There's such a rich history of unintended CBA consequences at this point. You know, like the contract length being chief among them, how, you know, the teams and the owners thought, oh, if we shorten the contract link, that's going to help us because we're not going to be on the books for a 10-year deal. Oh, whoops, you're accidentally opening the door for all of these guys to negotiate their exits basically whenever they want. Right. So, I mean, the, the CBAs are always fascinating in that way. And what teams think they need and think they want to be more effective versus the way these things actually play out in real time usually are very different. Yeah. The perpetual auditioning for

for teams having to perpetually audition for players rather than the other way around. I think it's, it makes for a much more lively transactional market and it makes for probably a lot more volatility in terms of teams that are good or teams that are bad. Like the idea that Chicago has gone from basically one of the punchlines of the league to, I wouldn't say an Easter conference contender, but definitely like must see TV starting the season, right? Like, that took them, it took them three first round picks to get there. Yeah, right.

I mean, how many did they give Orlando for Vooch? That's what I mean, like two for Vooch, one for DeRosen. It's adding up at this point. But then you get into the idea that, you know, if nothing is ever really set, if you're kind of following along with the Kauai-esque model of like, I'm just going to keep rolling over these two years. And like, you know what? I have my own medical team anyway.

Like I'm kind of like my own industry. For those superstar players, that's really fascinating. When it gets to like the younger guys, I think to Syrit's point earlier about people, being NBA ready. I think we have a lot more coaches who are a lot more willing to play younger guys earlier

rather than like the Steve Clifford like Mo Bamba will sit and watch for two years before I give him like anything more than garbage time. I wonder whether or not it accelerates that kind of agitation. We've already heard a lot about like the Zion is unhappy in New Orleans stuff

that like he wants to go to the Knicks. He may be the first guy ever not to sign a rookie extension. Do you think that this could start to trickle down to into the underclassman of the NBA, this kind of like, hey, maybe I don't necessarily need to spend the beginning of my prime

in a kind of mid-tier or even losing situation. If you're Zion especially, right, he's just somebody who is going to make all of the money in the world for the rest of his career and he's going to get a ton of endorsements. You can make an argument that being in New Orleans is actually capping his potential right now. Yeah, probably.

I mean, at least in terms of earnings potential, right? And honestly, probably, I mean, if I've already taken two shots at the Pelicans, but probably basketball potential too. Look, New Orleans's like top top four global cities. Like, don't worry about it. I love New Orleans. It's just like, nobody goes to the game. Oh, totally. I've never even been to New Orleans.

Yeah, I mean, it just seems like it's why. It seems like it's why. It seems like New Orleans is actually such a dope city that people don't like care about basketball that much. I've never been there. That's just a guess. But it just, you know, it seems like it from people that you talk to. It's just always something to do. Yeah, I think if you're Zion, and like, actually, let's back to it.

So why am I taking shots of the Pelicans, right? It's because it is so obvious when there are bad moves being made now. Like, it kind of just goes back to Rob's point. There just aren't a lot of GMs in the league anymore that I'm really questioning. Like, I see the stuff that they're doing, and I'm like, you're so much smarter than me, man. Like, I can, you know, like, all of these, and that applies to pretty much everybody. but like it's it's something where like you look at the things that they do to try to get these players and it's like oh my gosh you're actually like you're you're thinking about this like way in advance in terms of like how you can how you can be flexible um so for zion i think it's it's really interesting um obviously they have made some they have made some bad moves um and he is in the unique position where yeah he he could that would actually i mean that would be that would be that would be the next moment that we're talking about talking about. If there's LeBron and 11 and there's Durant and 19, if Zion was like,

screw this, I'm going to the Knicks, like that would just change the league. Totally unprecedented. Totally unprecedented. It would be a wild change in the marketplace of the NBA. But again, it all comes down to how much political capital you have, like how much room you think you have to negotiate this stuff. I mean, there are there are a lot of players who request trades in the NBA all the time. Very few of them get granted or even seriously entertained. So, but Zion has the ability to leave, as we've talked about, like the freedom financially speaking. If he wants to take that qualifying offer, he'll be able to do that. I'll believe it when I see it, I think.

Yeah. But the volatility around Zion is arguably why the Pelicans, I mean, the Pelicans made some bad decisions about Stephen Adams and Airblood. So that's a given. They got off of that, those trades. They also had a perfect fit in Lanzo Ball that somehow, like, really, really didn't want to be with a franchise. I have some questions about that. This is exactly what we're talking about, though. You could make the argument.

I don't have any, like, inside information about this, that one of the reasons why Lonzo was like, screw this, is because it was quite obvious that they were going to go for Kyle Lowry. You know what I mean? And it was quite obvious that they might even take a Hail Mary shot at Chris Paul and that they were more interested in getting a point guard of that caliber to play next to Brandon Ingram and Zion than they were bringing Lonzo back, even though just based on like general presiding sentiment,

it seems like Brandon Ingram and Zion Williamson really liked Lanzo and liked playing with him. Yeah. So in some ways, like, if Griff was like, I know best, you should play with a 35-year-old point guard, not Lanzo ball. I'm going to make this happen. Falls flat on his face. Get Satteransky in Temple for his trouble. He may have like accelerated this Zion conversation way more than he should have.

You know what I mean? Just by he could have done better by just standing pat, resigning Lanzo and being like, okay, Lanzo Zion and Brandon, let's see how good you guys are with like a stretchier five in Valenciunis and a, and some development from Alexander Walker, bring in Tray Murphy, like Kira Lewis. Like, let's see what that is. Yeah, I think it also, that kind of speaks to just how important communication is with players in a time like this. obviously we saw what Reddick said after he was traded about how he was essentially lied to and when you look at some of the franchises that do make a lot of deals

it's interesting that they're also considered player friendly like I think the Miami He are a place that could trade you at any moment but there is an upfront nature that they have about things like that. the same thing was kind of happening with Kyle Lowry and the Raptors. He has been in trade rumors forever, right? And obviously, I mean, that's going to affect anybody.

But I think there's a way that it can be handled that isn't necessarily happening everywhere. The Thunder are also a really good example of this too, where, you know, after, first of all, they traded Russell Westbrook to a contender, right? Then they worked with Chris Paul to send him where he wanted to go. And I think that's another thing that you're afforded with Flexible. flexibility. Rob, I'm curious what you think about, about where the Mabs go from here, because obviously, I mean, obviously they need to be better. There was a little, you know, we heard some Luca rumblings, but I mean, he signed a Supermax and they've, by and large, done, like, I think

the Luca needs help thing is a little bit overblown. Like, they didn't know that he was going to be this good. Now they do have to scramble a little bit, right? But they don't have a lot of that flexibility. They don't have draft picks and they don't really have a lot of contracts that other teams would be like super salivating about other than obviously, you know, if somebody wants Luca Donchich.

Where do you think, what do you think a team like that can do? There's such an interesting counterpoint to the Pelicans too, because they're kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum even though their stars are at pretty similar places where in New Orleans you have a lot of activity. You know, maybe too much activity in some ways.

And then in the Mavs' case, there's a lot of, as we talked about on top, you know, targeting certain free agents, trying to use cap space, going after Kyle Lowry and otherwise, like, we're going to bring back Tim Hardaway Jr. We're going to get Reggie Bullock and Sterling Brown, sure, but pretty, pretty conservative marginal moves in the grand scheme of things. And both of those fan bases are very unhappy at once. You know, so clearly there's a whole spectrum of activity here to navigate. And the question is, how does your activity read to your star? You know, does, when Zion sees what the Pelicans are doing. What does he make of that? Does it look panicked when they're firing

coaches, when there's so much turnover? Does it feel stable to him? Does it feel like somewhere he wants to be? And same question for Luca Donchish. Like, yes, he wants help, but he's also a guy who doesn't mind having the ball in his hands. You know, ultimately, I think the question of, can we get a ball handler to help Luca is great from a team building perspective? That's what a coach and a general manager would want. I think in some ways it's what's best for Luca. But on a game to game basis. That's a guy who wants the, who wants the ball, wants control, wants to be the auteur of everything that they're doing. So, you know, there is a give and take to that. You know, you want, you want to have enough help so that Luca isn't getting worn down, but not

so much help that he feels like he's not being able to, you know, write his own destiny. The Mavericks kind of did, the sort of thing that you can do that doesn't have anything to do with whether play, whether you have, whether you have, you know, the assets in hand to make a sign and trade deal, which is they changed everything but the owner and Luca. You know, they basically went out and got a new coach and brought in this new front office

towards the end of last season. So maybe they buy a little bit of time in that way. It seems like the opposite situation, and we could talk a little bit about what might happen in the coming weeks, is in Portland where, you know, they bring in Billups to replace Stots, but Olshe is still calling the shots there,

and there was a report in the athletic from Joe Varden. That was just basically like Dame, public press conference, but he was like, you know, we missed on free agency. We didn't get anybody. You know, like, we brought back Norm, but we did not really bring in some of the guys that I think we were looking to bring in. He even alluded to the fact that, like, it's a little bit different for me to be in Tokyo because I couldn't be his hands-on with, like, trying to help recruit guys to come to the team. As we're kind of going into what could be a very quiet trade sort of period for the NBA as summer league starts, you know, like everybody's still getting over

the Olympics and then like there are still these at least one big domino, which is, is Dame going to request a trade? And if so, who goes for him? And then what are those trade like dominoes that happen? Is it Ben Simmons? Does Beale happen? Or Celtics getting involved? Like who's, who's really gunning for him here? What's the biggest thing to know? I'll start with you, Rob, here about the difference between like that kind of trade market and the sign and trade market. Like in terms of like when you're when you're when you're just straight up out there on blockbuster street looking to make a deal, is it is it starting to become very similar because you're still now dealing with a player like Damien Lillard who is maybe declaring his free agency now and he's

going to give you a list of places he's willing to go. And I don't know if Dame has a no trade clause, but like presumably he would be like to do the deal with the Warriors. I want to go back to Baye you can have Cominga and Wiseman or whatever it would be. Like, presumably, like, these two kinds of trades are going to become very similar soon, or if they're not already. Yeah, I mean, Dame is going to have a lot of freedom to basically pick his spot. He's just one of those players who's going to be universally attractive in that way to a lot of different teams, unless they just happen to have a point guard who clashes with him.

You know, Ben Simmons is very different in that regard, just because you have to be in a particular place as a team and have a front office with particular taste in terms of personnel to want Ben Simmons right now, even though he has all these years left on his deal. So, though, you know, if Ben Simmons were a free agent, his marketplace might be pretty open because teams wouldn't have to necessarily give up anything if they had cap space to bring him in, to make him the centerpiece of their team. Lillards, I feel like, is going to be the same either way. It's pretty much, I'm looking at the whole league.

I'm looking at the full board. What are the situations that are attractive to me? And at that point, the only restrictions become, does that team have enough salary to trade back for me? I'm on a pretty huge deal. You know, the Lakers don't really have that unless it's basically straight up for Russell Westbrook and, you know, you can tinker on the edges of that. So there are some teams who can't just, like, add a player making as much money as Damien Lillard does.

But that's why you sign. Are we sure the Nets can't? Because, like, I just haven't seen any evidence. The Nets are just allowed to keep adding guys. You know, Patty Mills, Patty Mills, Blake Griffin. DeAndre Jordan. Yeah. Alizé Johnson.

Let's throw them together. That should be enough. no, it's a fair point. But yeah, so other than that one restriction, I mean, Dame's going to be able to call his shot, I think. It also brings up a really interesting question about trading for guys that don't necessarily want to be on your team or maybe just aren't your first choice.

So the Sixers, obviously, they now have a little bit of a history with this. I think obviously there's a Jimmy Butler deal where he did want to be in Miami initially. I think he's wanted to secret, like, you know, there's a thing beckoning him to Miami. It was like the heat culture was speaking to him. He was like, this is my people. They're the only people who understand me. And I think, you know, I think obviously, like most people do want to have that opportunity to go to that place where they fit the best or like the place that has been like in their dreams. So, you know, the Sixers, I think it was a good risk at the time.

I think there's a version of history where it works. It didn't for a number of reasons. The triple bounce. It's a three-bounce shot away from being like a genius decision. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think obviously there was a lot of chemistry turmoil there, but I think if they had somehow gone to the finals, even maybe won the finals, if the wars have the same injuries, then they probably do.

And then maybe you just bring back a semi-disfunctional. team and try to try to run it back and you know anything can happen those moments but i think it's a really interesting question with with uh lillard because you know my sense is not that you know philly is his number one choice and he actually just checked he doesn't have a no trade clause so they could trade him to philly philly can obviously put together the best package um but where does that lead you next if you aren't able to then you know just convince him that he's that he's like meant to be there instead of wherever else he wanted to be. Obviously, it happened with the Raptors in Kauai.

The Raptors, the Raptors did everything perfectly. They listened to him and won a championship, and it still didn't matter necessarily. Obviously, for them, you know, you're going to do that trade now 10 times out of 10. Can I ask you something, though, as somebody on the ground in Canada? Yes. Yes. Didn't it matter?

What do you mean? Didn't it matter? Like, we're two Galaxy Brain. We're like, yeah, you guys won the title. But the thing is, is that did you do it in this exact way? Or did you then, like, do something else afterwards? It's like, no, they won the title. Yeah.

That's the only thing that we play for. It's like, there's not like a big trophy that you get for managing the cap best or for drafting comminga. Like, you basically, you won the title. That's it. So like, are Toronto fans like, yeah, it's too bad that we traded for Kauai Leonard and won the title. No. Yeah. Not even a little bit.

Not even a little bit. It doesn't, like, they got a parade. I mean, like, that's the whole point, right? The city, that year in the city was just like one of the most incredible. I don't live there anymore, but like it was one of the most incredible things I have ever experienced. And it's like one of the most incredible things that the city ever experienced. Like it was just this huge come up moment for Toronto where like they were at the top of

everything. And as Drake put it, like none of this existed. None of this existed before us. Like it was just a very cool moment for a lot of people in the city, especially a city that's been ruled by hockey, the city that is like incredibly diverse and like just doesn't really have it reflected in sports teams that are good a lot. It was an amazing moment for the city. It was like the coolest two months ever.

And then after that, like, they're not, they're not fucked now, you know? Like, they're fine. Like, you know, they're not going to be contending for a championship this year. But, you know, I think they can make the playoffs. Maybe. And if they can, they just have a lot of young guys. And that's also fine. Because, like, you're like, well, what if Dame doesn't really want to be in Philadelphia?

It's like, I don't care. I don't care. I think that's a right impulse. Let's worry about that later. I think that's a right impulse. Future Chris can worry about that. Yeah. I mean, look, if you have any occasion in which Mark Gassal is going to roll through your city on the top of bus crushing champagne, and I don't know who the six was equivalent of that would be like maybe George Nyang now or something.

Yeah. You do it. Like that you've already. It would be FERC. It would be FERC. And it would be Yingling Premium. And he would just be like on the top of a septa bus. and I would honestly love to be here for it.

Is there anything else that you guys wanted to hit before we wrapped up this episode of the answer? If they when you have to go. It's just like, you have to go. That's not even a question. I'm so mad that I wasn't here for the Eagles Super Bowl, but I did, like, I do think that, like, I have friends, some of whom I work with who are Eagles fans,

who are, like, still kind of, like, tortured about Carson Wentz and, like, whether, like, Doug was good. I'm like, we won the Super Bowl yesterday, day, man. Like, it's, that feels so good. It feels so good. I don't care if, like, Jalen Hertz needs three years to develop. Like, I'm so, I'm so, like, happy with, like, what happened. So sometimes

I just think that, like, yeah, like, on an outsider's perspective, you could just be like, well, Toronto, they really went all in for Kauai. And, like, look where they wound up. Now, now what are they doing? They have Siakum. He's not number one option. It's like, no, Toronto got a parade. That's what you play for. Baskin the glow for a little while. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's exactly what it is. a little while, right? One thing I will say is you are sort of starting to see we've not, we're now two years removed from, from the Toronto being, Toronto Raptors being the longest standing NBA champions ever, by the way. And you're starting to see that sentiment a little bit, right? You're also starting to see some stuff, like feelings come out of Raptors fans out didn't exist before towards Kauai in terms of, you know, I think, you know, they won the championship. There was no bitterness about him leaving at the time. There's some fans that were kind of like,

come on, we did everything we possibly could have. Sure. But, but, but, but, you mean, the best part, oh my gosh,

the stuff was so fun. The best part was, there were signs around the city. I don't know if you guys saw this at the time. I don't know if it was like, just like kind of like a Toronto viral thing. Um, there were like stickers around the city saying Uncle Dennis eats for free

in like different restaurants and stuff. Like that's the stuff that is so fun, right? Um, but you do, like, you know, a couple years removed. Like,

you got, you start to get some fans and, in their feelings. And like, because I think the thing that happens once you win a championship is that the fan base starts to expect that things will be good.

Like I see Raptors fans absolutely freaking out about this upcoming season. It's like, guys, they're fine. You know, like they might make the playoffs.

If they don't make the playoffs, then they're still a really young team that has interesting draft prospects. And they just, I mean, I think they also just resigned Messiah, which is probably the most important offseason move.

The most important transaction they could have made. Yeah, seriously. So it's interesting. Like, there are two sides of it. Yeah, you know what the other side is, Rob? It's the Warriors.

Because the Warriors are the team on the other side of the rainbow here, right? Because Leacob just did that interview in the Athletic. That was a light years interview. Like, I just loved that interview because it was just like, in every possible moment he was kind of like inching into being like, yeah. You know, like I liked comminga. You know, it was a great interview. Maybe not if you're a Warriors fan.

But he was pretty straightforward about being like, yeah we like all these teams are trying to put together their their trio their golden generation their like core like it did and I paid him and that's where we're at you know what I mean like he's like this team's expensive and if we aren't good enough it's because I'm not good enough and Kerr's not good enough and Bob's not good enough and Clay Dre and Steph are not good enough and at the end of the day you're going to get back to that now there's so much like movement Rob, like, it seems like, you know, the Lakers will not be the Lakers next season or two seasons from now or three seasons from now. There will be like another version of this team.

But the Warriors are like the continuity team despite the Durant blip. And even if Durant had never gone there, we probably would have, you know, arrived at some version of this. What do you think about like a team of veterans, obviously with a lot of young kids and planning for the future? Are the Warriors trying to thread the needle through all the different models that we've discussed on this pod? I think they definitely are. I mean, they're at the center of so many of these different weird cap mechanisms and exceptions and the cap spike and all that stuff. They've been beneficiaries and they've exploited and taken advantage of a lot of those things.

But, I mean, the difference between the Warriors and a lot of other teams, the reason why they are actually light years is because they have an owner who will spend money. Owners remain the greatest competitive advantage in sports. And, you know, like you have, there's going to be a certain degree of involvement. Joe Leggev is going to be in your draft room. He's going to have very strong feelings about Jonathan Caminga. That's part of the deal. But he's also going to shell out money to get Kelly Ubrey in the door. You know, and you're going to, you know, they'll manage it in some ways.

They'll trade out Eric Pascoll for a second round pick sometimes and cut costs where they will. But like they just gave Steph tons of money. They're going to give all these guys. Like guys are going to get paid to be a part of the Warriors as much as that team, like as much as their structure will allow. And so even as all these other teams, you know, we've said that, you know, their front offices are smarter than they were before. or it's kind of leveled out in terms of the operating levels of so many of these teams, the big difference is that they're paying people. Other teams are not, even to retain their course.

And so that is always going to be a huge advantage. And it's always going to be a thing that, you know, they're not always going to have the room to bring in another star without, you know, the Andrew Wiggins contract to trade for it or whatnot. But that's why they're in the position they are. That's why they have all of these, you know, they're invested in having this next era of warriors developing. but I don't think they're going to be precious about it if Brad Beale becomes available. I don't know Joe Lakers. I don't want to make any assumptions

about his extracurricular activities, but every time I read a Joe Lakeb interview, I'd just like to imagine that he just did like a fat line of coke before getting on there. He's like if it's, yeah, yeah, yeah, if we fail, it's everyone else. You know, it's going to be on Dre, it's going to be on Steph, it's going to be on Clay.

Like I just, I love imagining him like that because I feel like it's just his baseline energy at all times. I can't end this podcast on any. more of a libelous but also amazing image than coked out Joe Lacob blaming himself for the Warriors falling apart.

Can we get legal in here real quick? Yeah, seriously. This podcast is actually going to be like 31 minutes long. We're going to wrap it up there. We'll probably be back next week, you know, summer league's happening I think starting this weekend.

But, you know, as the NBA players get back from Tokyo, we might get some trades. There might be some more stuff to talk about. Sir, thank you so much as always for joining me. And thanks, Rob, for joining us this week. Anytime.