The Ringer NBA Show - Is It Time to Worry About the Magic? Plus, an Eastern Conference Gut Check and OKC’s Chance at 70-Plus Wins. | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann discuss the Thunder’s unbeaten franchise-record start of 8-0. Then they move to the East, starting with the sputtering Orlando Magic. They also talk about other struggling contenders and surprise teams like the Bulls and Sixers. Intro (0:00:00) Fan Duel ad break (3:40) Thunder (4:28) Magic (19:05) Hawks (41:04) Sixers-Bulls (52:53) Pistons (1:00:24) Top of the East predictions (1:07:37) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle MannProducers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me. Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Kyle, back from fighting some planters. Great to see that you're alive and well. Hold on. All right. Okay. I prepared. I was, I felt like the social media post that I saw and the, the things that I heard that you said about me on the pod, I just felt like I needed to respond. So I prepared a written statement here. Okay. As follows, Justin Vera and his co-host because of his repeated embellishment and distortion of the facts is heretofore and here and after known as Bologna Mahoney have misled the ringer community and slandered me in a way that demands a correct depiction of the events.

On November 2nd, 2025, I was sent on a series of errands for my wife that required completion and had been delayed as the result of a flat tire. The first of the deliveries involved a delivery. Aaron's involved a delivery of an item to a residence that I was unfamiliar with. with. I approached this home in near total darkness and in silence on a cold, autumnal Kentucky night walking toward a stoop that was enclosed by a three-foot wall, three-foot high wall, and on one end featured a high ledge with several planters. Cutting to the chase, as I approached this stoop, it's totally dark. This all happened within about one and a half

seconds. A cat sprung up out of the darkness like a jump scare from a movie. It was scared of me, I guess. We both scared the shit out of each other. And it just Chris Farley leapt into these planters. And it made, you guys are really, you all, you all were really like quibbling with the part of it being feral. It just made a sound that only a feral cat would make. I didn't get a good look at it. We don't want to impugn the cat, you know?

We want to make sure that their reputation is up there. And also, you all made it sound like that was the reason I missed the problem. I figured that was a little bit more dramatic than you had to, you had to watch. is leapt at by a feral cat. I got to say, I have no qualms with how we described it, Justin. I think we did it justice. Yeah, that's just podcasting, baby. These things don't just happen to me all the time.

It's not some Southern Gothic. Well, here's the question I'm left with. Did the cat go into the planters or did you and the cat go into the plant? No, I didn't fall. I stood there frozen and almost pissed my pants because this thing scared the shit. Well, I get scared the piss out of me. No, it just jumped. I don't know if the cat's all right.

The planter, it was so loud. I was just like, I sat the thing down. I wasn't, I don't even know the people that I, that, uh, the house where I was at. It was Megan's friend. So I was just like, I just fled the scene. I was like, I got to get out of here. I hope it wasn't there, cat.

I hope it's okay. The story, just so we get the nuts and bolts straight, uh, Kyle saw a cat. That's, that's the story, right? That's the whole thing. I think so. Is the cat available to like give their side of the story? Can we get the cat on the next bottom? We'll just paste the story.

Besides this thing, yeah. Like a mock trial for the next couple episodes. Yeah, maybe we can get the translator thing from Mickey 42 or whatever the movie is to figure out what's going on with the cat. I just, it was a lot. It was a very trauma. And I texted you guys, that was clearly a mistake. Okay. No, I think that was the one thing that you did correct.

We appreciate it. Well, yeah. All right. Well, glad to see you. Glad that you're all right. We hope that the cat is out there. All right. You have our best wishes.

Kat, you're in our thoughts. You're listening to The Ringer NBA show presented by Fandul. Fandul now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because Fandul's coming your way December 1st. Download the Fandle Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C.,

Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1,800. or visit r g dash help.com call 188789 777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in connecticut we're going to talk today about some eastern conference team a conference that is just all over the place i have no idea what to do with this so we're going to kind of try to parse through it all and make sense of it but first we have to talk about the oklahoma city thunder as we're recording this on wednesday morning they are the only undefeated team left on the board

8 and O. Last night, Rob, Dork goes out. They still don't have J-Dub wearing just a giant suit on the bench. The Clippers didn't have Kauai, we should mention. But that game, like, what seemed to be their first lost mounting, slowly but steadily just became a title wave that just completely subsumed the Clippers body in that one. I mean, it really did. It felt like a classic Thunder game in that way where, yeah, James Hardin, you can have your explosive first quarter and it just becomes impossible to sustain over the course of that game. And the clippers were taking it super seriously as you have to when you play the thunder it just didn't mean a whole lot when you get into the second half and you get into the teeth of that defense and you have the reality of what it means to be hit by these guys over and over and over and locked up and have your you know your pocket picked over and over and i was thinking about that jv as as you know without dort and they've played without chet some this season obviously they've been without j dub and it's just like there are so many stakeholders in their defense that it makes it almost impossible to destabilize?

Because they do lean on all those guys. And they lean on Kaysen Wallace and they lean on Caruso. And they lean on, you know, great effort from Shea and Aaron Wiggins and Isaiah Joe and down the line. And it just becomes this like really impossible effort in the regular season to really knock them off their axis. And so when we think about where the thunder can go and I think we at this point have to given the start that they've had, it's just really intimidating as a regular season

matchup, clearly as a playoff upon. and I just don't even know what you're supposed to do with these guys at this point. Yeah, after watching the East, I mean, it was an East heavy first part of the slate last night. Switching to the Thunder still in Isaiah was like, it was just a jarring thing to see, like in the basketball sense, like to watch these teams just trying to figure out who they are and I know we'll get to the East more, but like just the slogging it out and the half court, like trying to find a plan that leads to a higher quality of shot. Okay, see, I was just laughing at the way that game unfolded because you were talking about how they just lock you up and wear you down.

It almost reminded me of like one of those Alabama teams that would just run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, play action. Like that's the way that game ended. Like they just soften them up and then they hit them with a counterpunch out of nowhere, man. I mean like, A.J. Mitchell, like just the luxury of being able to roll out to start the fourth quarter with against the second unit, an old second unit for the clippers, I might add. Geriatric, prehistoric second unit, if we're being honest about it. Poor Boge. I mean, there have been times in my life where I almost bought like a Serbia Bogdan Bogdanovich. I love that guy. And I just felt so bad watching him try to evade AJ. Like, you know, they're rolling out Chet, you know, Aaron Wiggins, AJ Caruso and I heart. And it's just crazy to watch them just effortlessly. The Mitchell thing is just ascending to another level of seriousness. I posted this my Instagram. There was a there was a staggered play where Chet rolled or Chet popped and Hart went to the to the bass.

And AJ goes to his left hand, gets into the paint really low and snakey with his dribble. He throws a left-handed, it was a night of nice left-handed live dribble skip passes. But he just throws a freaking dart to Wiggins in the corner. Or maybe it was Isaiah Joe. And he just knocked it down. It's just their process is just so good. And they have so many luxuries that other teams just don't have. So if any team that just won the finals lost, let's say, the second best player, I think we would all feel it.

there are times out there where I forget that J-dub is a part of this because it works so seamlessly. And then you think about it, as Rob was alluding to, there have already been pretty significant injuries and also games that have gone down to the wire where you think like, oh, they went so deep into this game. Maybe they just punt the next game. But it just never happens. Like, Chet is still working his way back from what I believe was three stray absences due to a back issue, which something to flag going forward because they're going to need him down the stretch.

But like, he just as hard falls in this game too. Like he's constantly like contesting people at the rim Driving and attacking himself like he's taken hits Even while he's coming back from injury It's just a screener too Like for how many he is They just like they're like the state puff

Marshmallow man where they're just adding more and more Or maybe like a T-1,000 where it's like Oh I just lost my arm nope I just grew a new one It's just there's like There's no hole there When supposedly a top tier like top 25 type of player goes out because there's just guys on top of guys on top of guys in order to fill in. It's, I haven't seen anything like this, much like, I guess, people wouldn't have seen

the T-1000 when he first raged across Los Angeles. He did break new ground. Shout to all the good work that the T-1000 did. Really, really pushing the envelope. Standing for the T-1,000 is a nice take, Davey. You know what? He had some great points. Innovator.

I did have that thought. you know, when this game against the clippers felt competitive, right, before it really slipped away in the thunder just took that thing by the throat. It was like, eventually OKC will lose one of these close games, right? Like, eventually they should. But also, what if they don't? Like, what if they just continue to do this, where it feels competitive in the middle somewhere and they just run away with it,

or it feels competitive down the stretch? We've already seen them pull out two double overtime games this season. when you have this kind of defensive buy-in and you just keep giving teams 48 minutes of hell or I guess 58 minutes of hell in the case of those double overtime games maybe they just won't lose those games. They have so many guys who are so ready for those moments

and clearly they've shown it on the playoff stage but also are just regular season gamers as well. I just don't put anything past them. They have one of the best individual closers in Shea. They have an overwhelming defensive front and team cohesion. They have all of that depth. They have all of that youth.

They have the ability to survive any injury as we've been talking about, basically. I just think that they're so uniquely positioned for regular season dominance in a way that we just have not seen, certainly since the dynastic warriors. And that's kind of the threshold and the standard that this team is going to be held to. It's like, can you live up to history, basically? Which is crazy for the thunder just so soon after really cresting into a championship team. So Rob brought up the dynastic warriors. It's a good segue because the Thunder are now 8-0. It's the best start in their history, so in the OKC history.

Surprisingly, there haven't been a ton of 8-0 starts recently. In history, there have been a ton. But last year, we actually got one in Cleveland. I believe they pushed it up to 14, I want to say, last year before they finally lost one. So that's something to keep in mind. Milwaukee in 2022, so the 2022-23 season, that ultimately was the one where they end up losing to Miami in the first round, but they got the first seat in that game, the next team on that list, the 2015-2016 Warriors, went on to win 73 games that year.

So is there much of a marker there? Does it suggest anything long-term? Probably not. But at the very least, I think it suggests they are amongst the teams that are going to rattle off wins. I think the bigger question, Kyle, now is like, do we think that they're going to challenge for some of those bigger markers, the 73, the 70s, the 70s? because it's odd.

Like, you look back last year, they already won 68, and we're all saying they're better and deeper and more prepared for this stuff. So 70, especially after what we've seen, doesn't seem that difficult. Yeah, it's partly the things that we've talked about, how they have these sort of side processes that they're not burdened to be the main featured event because you have a Shea, because you have the MVP on your team, but you have the development. It's just money in the bank that's just growing over time in the chat development,

in the J-Dub when he comes back. But I think another thing that's really interesting is this is a self-sustaining process because there's no entitlement. You have the accountability, you know, top to bottom that we talked about that some of these teams that have had success, like, you know, Miami obviously has it right now. But there's a lot of examples of it. But they don't have any kind of entitlement within their personnel where guys can be like, I know I'm going to play so I can make the choice to kind of like take a break here or

whatever it is because there are guys coming up. like AJ is just pushing, pushing, pushing, and they have all this youth. They have guys that are coming, obviously, you know, Topich wanted him to get better. Obviously, we got, you know, Sorburne hasn't even played a minute yet. And people love him and believe in him. So you just got all this like from the bottom pressure that's going to eliminate any kind of entitlement. And that's partly what makes me think that this is possible because it's not going to be like we have our proven veteran stars who are just going to be carrying the burden of taking the best punch when they come to town from the team. It's not like, they don't have to necessarily, they're going to play hard and live up to that on a lot of nights,

but they're not going to be carrying the full burden of that because of the top to bottom sort of vying for more, vying to get better stuff that they have from their younger players. Like they're just all in that foxhole together, right, where you have like that kind of mutual development and mutual investment in each other. Like, it is an ideal modern roster in a lot of ways, but it also is like an ideal competitive environment that Oklahoma City has built, which is a stunning thing. have to do all of that under the strictures of the salary cap and the tax and the aprons and all that. But like they, it's striking to watch Shay in particular who like his version of a title hangover

is I'm just going to score slightly more and slightly more efficiently than I did during my MVP season. He just rattled. He just started like canning threes against the clippers last night just because he could. And he feels like he is at that point where he already has such an easy command over the game. And so when you have a star who's doing that and of this incredible competitive development, elemental atmosphere where all of these guys are kind of charging forward together. I just hesitate to draw the line almost anywhere in terms of what they're capable of. And even while saying that, it's not going to be easy to challenge for any of these records, clearly.

Like winning 70 is an unbelievable achievement. There's a reason it's so rare in NBA history. And when you think about kind of those two benchmark teams, the 2016 Warriors or the 96 Bulls, you know, the Warriors started out 24 and O. We are at 8 and 0 right now. And so there's a long way to go to even get to that start. The Bull started out 23 and 2. It's just impossible standards.

And yet I find myself with this Thunder team just thinking that they're capable of almost anything. A couple of bullet points, I think, to tack on to those two teams that have done it. Number one, I think we over lionized the late 90s, the NBA at times. I love it. I grew up in it. I'm nostalgic for it. The league was decidedly not as good. I mean, the talent level was not.

There were some shitty teams. and the bulls with the energy of Jordan coming back and all that stuff, they pounced on people with their continuity and everything. And then the other thing is that the Warriors, the Warriors when they did it, it was such a unique shifting tectonic moment, I think that they were just grabbing bottom shelf, lower hanging fruit in the way that they played,

that I just don't know that that's going to be replicable. So you're right. I think it's going to be a challenge because I think this is a little different. Granted, their situation is very different because of the way their organization is set up. So I don't know. I don't know if that's different enough to propel them, but we'll see. Yeah, I think last year was a proof of concept.

Not only that OKC is one of the best teams in the league, but that if you're a role player, you buy into the system and your role because you know you could get something more down the road. There is no disease of me because when Shaygild is Alexander is your top player who used to be more in the role player model but became the MVP in the league, you fall in line. Or you see someone like Dort who has just steadily done

his role, all of a sudden just get this opportunity to be one of the best role players, best wing defenders in the league, you play your role. And so if you're case in Wallace and it's like, oh, maybe I need to handle the ball more. It's like, it'll come. We'll find time for you in the middle of November because that's what we do. And the lesser games, we just give guys opportunities. And so they've really struck on something that few teams have, which is to have their kick and need to, to have the superstars, but also have the guys buy into a system that they won't ever like try to go outside of the lines. Totally. I mean, the reason we're having this conversation, the reason we're here is because the Thunder do stuff like

last season played A.J. Mitchell on a two-way when they didn't have to do that because they believed in the talent and they saw something in him and they gave him the opportunities to make mistakes, make mistakes even in the NBA finals, right? Like have those chances. And when you do things like that and you invest in the right guys, all of a sudden you start knocking on a pretty special door. Yeah. AJ Missal plays in the finals and then plays in Summer League. Like you won't get that anywhere else. No. But we should mention. and Thunderplay back to back. I think it's their first one tonight in Portland.

I'm going to that game. That's like a first test. We'll see like, do they start sitting people there? Are they fatigued? The mighty blazers are the first test. I didn't say it. You're not charging me for that one.

Just waiting. Also, this is the first of their first long-dish road trip. Like, this is a four-game set on the road. That's a first, like, data point, right? When we start talking about the bigger 72-70 sorting goals there. I will say, though, like as far as the long-term planning and the possibilities of what they could reach for, not having J-dub to start the season

and then getting him back could be a really interesting, like if he comes back and they're 15 and O and gives them another kick, right? Then there's something changing, there's excitement, there's reason for even more optimism. Like,

that's a really unique element to a team that's already starting off like this explosively. Yeah, what if this is the most injured that they are this season? We'll see, but they could just actually be stronger

in a month or south than they are right now. the West, oddly enough, the cream rising to the top, as I'm looking at the standings, OKC, Spurs, Lakers, Denver, Houston, Golden State. Those are all the teams we expected to be there when we did the preseason projections for a lot of these teams. East, not so much. We had the Bulls at first, winning a slobber knocker against the Sixers to claim that spot. Sixers still in the second, Detroit, Milwaukee, Miami, and York. as Kyle was mentioning,

East just kind of, I don't know what to do with it. On the one hand, I'm like, well, you know, they beat up on these bad teams, but then I look in this, like,

all the teams are kind of bad teams or like middling teams or just teams sorting themselves out. And on that note, we should probably start first and foremost with the Orlando Magic, a team I think we all expected to be near the top of the standings.

There was a glimmer of hope this weekend. They beat the Wizards convincingly. But then Rob, last night, seems like it went back the other way. Yeah, beat the Wizards convincingly, also beat the Hornets, the mighty, mighty Hornets.

Other than that, have not had success against almost anybody, right? Like, eeked out that win against the heat on their opening night, but it's been a lot of losses. They've struggled against every good team they've played against. I think they're at a point where they still,

even after making this huge investment to get Desmond Bain, just have no margin for error. Like, if their defense is not elite, and it has not been elite for the majority of this season, they're going to lose. And it's like that's where the dynamic of trading for Bain just like has not paid off yet.

And there's many reasons for that. There's many like weird blips involved in kind of what's going on for them offensively. But in a lot of ways, it's also the same old story, which is it's a lot of churn on the perimeter, handoffs into pitches, into swing, swing, but like nothing actually creating an advantage whatsoever. And it's, it can be very frustrating to watch. And it's been very ineffective. Have you guys ever heard of, I mentioned this a couple years ago when I was watching the Pistons.

And I thought of this again. Have you guys ever heard of destructive interference? It's an audio term. No. It's where two waves have the same shape. And as a result, they cancel each other. So I think what is happening on Orlando is you start from the fact that we have two primary options. And I was trying to think back of any primary duos that were just downhill pressure, but not good shooters, but also not elite passers.

And I was trying to think over history how many times that has worked. if you're on Twitter or wherever, just hit me up and let me know if you can think of an example of that. But I think you start from the fact of what Rob was saying. What you say? Sounds fun, having people hit you up on Twitter about that. Yeah. Anywhere. I love you know, you know me. You know where to find me. No, I mean, Palo and Franz, I mean, you just think about, Rob, what you said is true. I mean, it's, it's like they, you start with that, that, you know, proposition. And then you just kind of go from there. It's like, where in the world is their, you know, advantage creation going to be happening? Unless Paolo,

is in transition or Franz is in transition. You saw that a lot against the wispy wizards where they were just feasting on that stuff. But against a competent half-court team, man, I found a pretty damning stat here. Whenever they do get the defense to tilt against them, this is a synergy stat. So 25% of their possessions where the defense is tilted against them have been turnovers. The other 35% of those are three-point attempts and they're only hitting like 29%. of those. That's the highest turnover mark. So basically what is happening is whenever they, whenever the defense does pre-tilt, and a lot of the time, that's just to like give a little gap

help to prevent Powell from going downhill. It's often Jalen Suggs or, or Anthony Black, trying to drive and make something happen. And they have just been a lot more chaotic, I think, than is sustainable. Like, Suggs has been weirdly kind of hot doggy at moments. I don't I don't know if you all noticed this, like throwing wild behind the back passes or turning and like looking at the bench as he shoots a three. He's a confident player, but there's just been too much. He did miss that three for the record. Just absolutely tricked. There's just been too much erraticness. And I think all of that is kind of causing, I don't know. I'm curious to see if you all think that there's something with bane that they need to just tilt or change or what it is.

They're just not, even on the advantage situations that they're getting, they're not converting them into good looks. and even when they get the looks, they're not hitting them. So it's just this flaccid, fart sound offense. And when the defense has been bad, too, you're just, you're not going anywhere. Well, oddly enough, it seems like the inverted pick and roll with Bain's screen for Bencaro has been their most successful look, where it feels like when he's finally getting free and getting downhill against a scrambling defense, there's something to that, right? Unfortunately, a lot of the times, he being Paulo, is just is just isoing against a set defense.

I just don't know what's happening. A lot of times, Rob, when I'm watching Van Carroll, I'm like, who told you you were supposed to do this? Like, where do you get the audacity to just, like, pretend that you're Kobe? When your main advantage, you being so big and powerful, is so useful in certain ways, but not in this way that you keep doing it. And there's a lot of problems, but I think that the conversation ultimately circles around their best player, just not being at the level he needs to, to be doing and playing

the way he has. So I think some of that is definitely Palo's fault. he is routinely settling for shots that he shouldn't settle for. Some of it is also just the way that this offense is set up and all the things we've been talking about where because they fail to create those advantages, one-on-one or pick-and-roll or whatever, it's so easy to switch against them.

It's so easy to zone against them. It's so easy to junk up everything against what the magic are trying to accomplish. And then so Paolo ends up with the grenade with seven seconds left on the clock and tries to make something happen and can't. That stuff is frustrating. And at the same time, like you can see him trying

to be a screener. You can see him trying to push in transition to do, to do like all the things we're wringing our hands and like begging him to do. He tries to do that stuff. They just don't have the spacing to accommodate it even with Desmond Bain. And some of that is just, I don't even know what to say at this point. Classic Orlando magic shit of they bring in a great shooter who suddenly like cannot shoot. The shot quality is not good. I think we need to point to something else too that is maybe a sneaky subplot to this is the Windell Carter Jr. of it all. Like I feel like for years and I've guilty of this is you love the high it's so hypothetical in so many areas like he's not a great pick and pop player you know the most he's ever hit in pick and pop is 40% on a very low sample he did

that in 23 24 but this year he's at 29 and a half on those shots people don't respect him he's not a big time lob threat and if he's not a rim protector i just that's just another body and you're right like when they turn the corner to get into the paint it's crowded in there i mean it's crazy crowded. I mean, you'll see them bringing three and four guys in there. And I was talking about the advantage conversion thing. If you have non-manipulative passers like Anthony Black and Jalen sucks, you're just asking them to overextend what they do. If they have, if they catch it and they have an advantage and they're getting to the basket and finishing or whatever it is, you just frequently see them in a crowd being like, I, there's nowhere to go. And that's when you

start to see the crazy passes all over the place. And that's definitely a part of it. But I was going to say to De Silva, man. There was a moment. There was a definite like burst of life moment in that Hawks game last night where he caught it, gave it to, I think, Wendell Carter Jr., got it back on a back cut. I was just like, that would look like basketball. Wow. What was that that just happened? I don't know how it is.

Is there something that needs to be kind of rejiggered with the way that they're playing that would help? It's kind of what I've been wondering. Well, think about what you just said, Kyle, like how alarming it is to watch a magic player backcutting. And I think some of it is like they are so spills. racing pills for like all the reasons we just described. They're so focused on maintaining their spacing and maximizing and trying to stay in their spots where they can knock down threes to make the defense play them honestly, that there's just no movement on the backside.

It feels like so static. And you can't be static because of the wall on the front end of the offense and static on the back end because you're terrified to move. Like something has to give. Yeah. And that's why it sucks despite being chaotic. It almost feels like that chaos is necessary because he's just doing things that are just so unpredictable, but also making things happening that break free from just

the stodginess that's going on across the board there, where like he's playing limited minutes. I almost feel like that might be the biggest difference between them being just okay in offense and being just completely putrid because on top of just his hustle sparking different things there, he will also, like his in-between skills, I think have just gotten so much better over the past two years where he's just being more of a connector in order to connect the dots between all those big players that are just fighting for any ounce of space there. And then we should talk about it, they don't have a lot of like knock down shooters. And while Suggs shooting, I think is an open question considering the history, he had that one awesome season than last year he reverted back. There's a lot

of data suggests that like a lot of that was because he didn't have the other guys around. But like him not being out there to space, I think also factors in there. And so I think Suggs, in a lot of ways, we've talked about like if they ever had to make a move in order to deal with the money problem that's going to be on the horizon. Like Suggs is an obvious candidate. Suggs is a central personnel as far as as I'm concerned. And even though they bring in all these high money

players, Bain being another one, still feels like he's the most important guy to making that all work. He's really critical. Look, first of all, I think it's too early to talk about actually making moves with this roster. Like they are figuring it out. Guys are shooting both above and below their standards, but in Bain's

situation in particular. This is a guy who has led basically every team he's ever played. for in three point makes and right now is like tied for third on the Orlando magic. So like some of that is good, right? Some of that is like Wendell's spot ups hitting Franz's shot seems to be back in order in a way that is good for the magic. But like Desmond Bain has to be a more impactful offensive player. Some of that is going to be how he's deployed and how they learned to use him and how these guys learn to play off him. And they're just going to need to find their way collectively to find some semblance of offense. Of course, like if they're defending like this, they're really doing

themselves no favors too. Like they have to get back to the Orlando Magic standards of like on ball physicality. Like it's jarring to watch these guys just get blown by and then over rotate. And then the Atlanta Hawks without Trey Young picking them apart like systematically picking them apart. Like that that cannot be your baseline if the offense is going to be even remotely this bad. Let me ask a question that has been asked many times before.

What's going on with? Jonathan Isaac. He has a 10 minute minute cap apparently. I mean, even in those, he just looks like somebody that ate too much pizza. Like, he doesn't look like Jonathan Isaac anymore. Like, am I wrong? I don't know.

Even two years ago where they're like, oh, this is the break glass in case of emergency guy because he's just such a destructive force on defense. They waited until the end of the year. And all of a sudden, they pounced on, on the opponent in the last game. And he was fine. You know, like it still hasn't paid the dividends as much as they'd like in

terms of like how he fits into the rest of this he's still a great defensive player but ultimately i just don't think he's as much of a like leveling up sort of player as perhaps we all projected i mean i think he for this team is a five it's just got to get into that space where like there's no other way to play him and so then you got to chunk up one way or the other uh it's like that that is the only slot that they can really get by because when they try to play him at the four it just like is not a tenable thing well the one thing that one thing that's the one thing that jumped out to me last night was like the hawks with porzingis being at the five versus wendell carter being at the five for the magic and now porzingis is like probably a generational

stretch five at this point the injury concerns are what they are but like look what he did to the celtics and i often find myself wondering it's not about the moves that the magic will do it's actually maybe the ones that they didn't do where it's like you paid the price to get bain but you didn't go even a step further, for instance, in pay to get Porzingis in there and getting a true stretch five in order to unlock that and do what the Celtics did, frankly, by not only going out and getting Drew, but going a step further and getting Porzingis. They made sure that that entire starting five was just so bulletproof that it didn't really matter what happened off the bench at a certain point. I almost wonder, like, did the magic

just not do the last thing in order to completely unlock them? Because right now, like, we could talk about, like, ways to deploy certain players. Maybe they go small, maybe do that. But, like, I think they would have been fine if they just had someone who was actually spacing out there. But isn't Desmond Bain supposed to do that? That's one of them, you know? I think when you're punting on two spots, especially when Suggs isn't out there, it looks pretty, pretty gunky. I think that's where it's getting a little complicated for the magic, because like, Tristan to Silva has looked pretty solid to Kyle's point. Window Carter, isn't a pick and pop option.

And like, yes, maybe in the landscape of NBA centers might leave you a little cold, but it's solid and is actually hitting his spot up threes this season in a way that should theoretically help. You have Bain, who even if he's not hitting, is at least one of the better reputation shooters in the league, right? Someone that actually should move a defense and defenders should be responding to his movement. It's like, all this stuff is kind of working in a way where it should unlock something, and yet it just doesn't.

And I think some of it is just the difference between, even when the magic are hitting, teams don't treat them like they're hitting. They still treat Paolo and Franz getting to the rim as the primary threat they need to stop, and the magic don't have a way to get around that easily enough. You're right. You said the spot-ups that I was like, no way.

47.1. He's hitting. Like, they're going. Taking 17 of them. I mean, yeah, you figure out how to do that. It makes you wonder, I mean, well, I mean, I guess it goes back to the advantage conversion thing. It's just like they're getting it into the spots, but just not finding the guys that can hit them,

the Bain and Carter. Why can't Paolo play center? Like, are there not small ball lineups, especially if the defense isn't as fearsome as it was in years past, where we just try it, where we say like, hey, DeSilva's playing well.

Let's put them at center, see if we could at least create an offensive advantage. Like, how much, Rob, do you think this is like a Mosley question about perhaps not just being not spicy enough, but like reaching for the salt and getting any sort of, of difference in there in order to switch things up a little bit.

I think it would be a more enticing proposition if they had a four who was like a good swoop in rim protector who could like, you know, the theoretical version of Jonathan Isaac, if that made sense to play Isaac and Palo that much together, but it doesn't for the, like you negate the offensive advantage by doing that. The problem with Palo is he can be a little spacey defensively where he's just like not rotating in a timely enough manner and he's not a presence protecting the basket despite his size. So it's like, yes, you are creating a potentially massive advantage on offense.

And especially if you can get out running and in transition and like outpace opposing centers, that's a huge deal that I think could break open some games for the magic. But I think you're going to be giving up a lot going to the rim, whether you play to Silva at the four or Franz at the four. Like they're just missing that guy. Like if there was if there was one person in that spot, even if it was like a Chris Boucher type, they could all of a sudden kind of make this thing make sense a little bit to play a little smaller, they would have some options, but they don't.

And so then they end up, it's like, it's Wendell or it's go-go-batase or honestly, the answer is kind of Mo Wagner, who's out. Like, that's an energy big who can hit some shots and stretch the floor and also be a presence offensively. Like, they are really missing him in a bad way. But that's kind of the gap in their roster right now is that guy who's big enough to play in those spots and can also shoot. Yeah, a disruptor. And it's, we've seen the end point with the Ozik experiment, even when it's going well, which is, you know, they get into a playoff. series and teams just are sagging all the way in the gap because he can't make a three. So it's like maybe that'll change.

Maybe you have some faith in that. But yeah, there's just so many caveats that are making this more difficult. Here's my broader question here about Paulo and just the way that centers are being reared at this point. Have we gone too far where we're almost too open to treating center type bodies almost as guards fully? Like I don't think we need to go back to the John Caliperi era, Kyle, where it's like, it's like you got to learn how to play in the post

before you even shoot a three. Like there was a very big backlash to what happened with... Is that the Calipari era? Well, wasn't the whole thing where he made a... Oh, you're thinking of... Yeah, yeah. Be a center. Cat be a center first before he like really tapped into anything else.

Cat ultimately just went into the NBA and started shooting threes and everyone's like, why wasn't he doing that before? Like, the openness to new ideas and how we like approach like skill with Biggs is ultimately a good thing. Oftentimes when I'm watching Paulo, I think, Like, did we go too far to where we didn't even like consider anything with this guy as a big? And I almost feel like it has put him in a disadvantage to where you've been talking about this a lot. We're like, I like him as a screener.

Like it seems like it unlocks a lot of his best attributes. And why doesn't he just do that more often? Yeah. Well, the screener thing I remember, you know, obviously I ran it about it earlier in the season. But the more I'm watching it, I'm just, he's just not super invested in it. You know, it's like you watch the idea of just like screening in and of itself, you're like that, there are so many levels of effectiveness to it. And like I was saying, if you watch somebody like, Chet is a much skinnier player than Palo, but a far superior screener. And it's just kind of like keeping your foot in both, keeping your citizenship in both in both countries is something that takes a lot of effort.

And I feel like you mentioned the Kobe thing with Palo. It's like, Palo literally grew up a Lakers Kobe fan. And like, he likes to play that way. the slot, the rip-throughs, that's just the way he does it. And I feel like not as much of that big guy personality is in his game anymore because I don't know, the broader sort of like big guys handling it thing is, is interesting because you just don't see a lot of teams built this way where usually it's like the concept of one guy at the middle of your offense that just gives crazy rim pressure and then you have shooting around it. But that's what I was saying. That's what I was

alluding to when we started. Like, I just can't really think of many teams that are built the way this one is because the honest experiment was unique because they were just like, okay, incendiary, you know, generational rim pressure and then we're just going to try to put shooting around it. But he didn't have another guy that was like roughly his size that was like, unless I'm like forgetting. Who else? They traded all those guys away from like the early part of the Milwaukee experiment, right?

Yeah, like that is what makes it a little awkward for Orlando. And I think what makes the like, can't Palo just screen more situation, like a little more complicated, even though I totally agree with the premise of it is screen for whom, right? Is it like, are we just going to run 40 Desmond Bain pick and rolls a game one way or another with Palo? Like should that be the offense? And if so, why do you have Franz Wagner on the team? You know, it's like, like, you get into some weird, like, team building questions pretty quickly if you want to structure your whole offense around that. And I also want to give Palo credit because, like, all of these things are true. and we want to see a certain direction to his game.

He's shooting more of his shots at the rim or within close to the basket than ever before in his career. He's taking fewer long twos than ever before in his career. Like you're seeing the effort to be this kind of player. It's just really hard to be a pick and roll big, rolling to the rim where there's no space to roll. And it's incredible when you see it happen, when you see it click.

Because Paolo, the way the guard skills do pay off is he can read the floor pretty effectively, especially on the move. Like as a connector, big, the like tick-tac-toe stuff, Desmond Bain, hitting to Palo on the roll, throwing the lob to Wendell Carter from the Dunker spot. Like, that's beautiful basketball that Palo is 100% capable of. You need space to do it.

Like, you need the actual respect of the defense to be able to operate that way. And I think the biggest gap is not like Palo's inability or unwillingness to be a screener. It's how do you clear enough space for him to do it even more consistently? Because he's trying to do it. Yeah. And that's why I go back to the Chris House. point where it's like if you know you needed this space, if it was so crucial to everything that

you're going to unlock with your best player, why didn't you go all the way in in order to do it? If Bain ends up being a half measure, that'll be ultimately disappointed. Because at this point, something needs to change. It could be the approach. It could be the lineup configuration. It could be whatever it is. But I am very worried that they'll be able to hit their ceiling where they are right now. It's hard to believe in this version of the magic right now.

You see them on paper and you like the composite pieces. We know the history of who they. They've been defensively, even though they haven't been it lately. And especially if they're just going to bleed points in transition like this, not getting back. And all this kind of flows into itself where they're so weird on offense and they're running all this action on the perimeter in a way that disrupts their floor balance and then makes it hard for them to get back defensively to keep up with some of these faster teams sometimes. You'll see teams just like run and run and run against them. That can't be the case. Like they have to shut down the easy stuff in transition.

They have to be an offensive rebounding team. There are certain things that by their build, they kind of have to be in order to keep their offense solvent and to keep their defense successful. And all of those requirements right now, I think, are just like stringing them out in too many different directions. And it's taxing on your morale too whenever you're having frustrating possession after frustrating possession.

And it's like, oh, well, we can make up for this if we just sprint back to stop this really fast team from scoring and transition. That just wears you down. And I mean, I think that's definitely a, a part of it. Kyle, do you think that frustration came out as Desmond,

Desmond Bain's suplexed an yucca, congou with one arm, and then whipped the ball at him with the other arm in one fell swoop? Speaking of T-1000 and the innovators,

man, I don't think I'd ever seen that one before. He did, like, it was opportunistic that the ball was just kind of floating in front of his face when he whipped him to the ground.

He just spiked it on his head. That was the most lively point of the night, I thought it had been a desilva backcut. Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a flagrant to go to the replay situation result in a flagrant one plus a technical. The foul itself didn't get you tossed, but you being a dick afterwards, definitely did it. Well, on the flip side, the hawks playing without Trey Young now, he's going to be out for at least four weeks. Rob, what do you think about like the all-wing everything Hawks at this point? I mean, they're pretty fun when they're clicking like this.

I think there's definitely moments where you can see them miss him and like miss the impact of that kind of playmaking. and they'll get jammed up and the turnovers will start piling up like that's life without your star. But this is a team that should be built to withstand some of that, right? They have enough ball handlers to do some stuff by committee.

They should have enough defense to pressure teams. And yet the Hawks are also one of these Eastern Conference teams who just like have not been able to put it together in like a really consistent and cohesive way.

They just get more easy money than the magic too, which is another thing that like the magic just get no easy money. You just see cutting game that's effective with all these like sinuous. fast wings. That's kind of what I'm not trying to take it back to the magic, but it's like,

it just kind of feels like that's what they're missing for me. It's like they just need, and they try to get that with KCP and it's just like, oh man, like this, this situation negated him, but the Hawks, like you said, are just so fast, so lively. And that's, that's a huge difference, I think, between those two teams, like that can sort of make up some of the, the absence of Trey and the, in the aggregate. Well, it's also the difference between the good version of the Hawks and the less inspiring version of the Hawks, because you're right, when they're getting the easy money, you see the vision of what this team is supposed to be. But when you see them especially without Trey, they don't usually, unless they're playing the Orlando Magic, get to the free throw line very much.

They don't usually get many offensive rebounds really at all. And so without all those second chances and bonus opportunities, they can just like level out a little bit in a way that is uninspiring to say the least. That makes it really hard to believe in the vision of this team. But then everything clicks into place and it feels fine again. So I'm just not sure which version of the Hawks is real or if they're just going to be on this kind of seesaw all season. Yeah. Where are we on Risha Shay?

Now, a season and a couple games into his career, number one pick. Kyle, I imagine you looked at him pretty hard coming out of the draft. Like, is this going right? I can't tell because it's such a bad draft. Like, it keeps getting worse and worse. Even this year, I'm looking up and down the first round. And I'm just like, Stefan Castle and, you know, Klingin's fine. It's just, it's such a outlier that we thought it was going to be, and it certainly has been.

So, like, are things going well for Risha Shay? Yeah, you're right. I mean, whenever we're like comparing the guys against each other, we really, we should be comparing them against, because every year's different, every year there's going to be, and you have to go through and, like, look at the arcs. And whenever we see the number next to a player's name, we're like, well, it's implied that this person should be doing this, and that's just not the case. So with Riseshay, I mean, I love his energy and his activity.

it's like he does a lot of things, you know, decently well. The thing that, like, worried me the most about about him coming in was like, I just don't know that he's going to be a consistent enough catch-and-chute guy. But he offers a lot of things. I just kind of wonder, is there runway for him to sort of graduate into a more increased role? Because there are some guys there that, you know, you know, Dyson Daniels is after the same thing. Jalen Johnson. It's kind of in the same place, kind of after the same thing. I don't know. I haven't been like blown away in a way that's it's it's landed kind of where I thought it would honestly. I always just kind of thought this guy's probably going to be like a quality, high quality role player at the end of the day. I feel like he's missing the level of defense that would anchor him.

He's like good enough and he's a good like as you're saying kind of like good enough ball mover, good enough off the dribble. Like has a lot to recommend in his game. But he also has those stretches where he'll just be invisible for six straight minutes because he doesn't have a way. to like impact it and it's it you know he's part of the the tapestry of what the hawks are doing but he's not the part that your eye has ever really drawn to and it's like if you were playing standout dyson daniels level defense it's like okay now we're creating something there's something like generative here that's really moving the hawks in a direction but the part of the reason to say experience that i i think makes it easy to overlook him is what makes him stand out

in a bad way as a as a you know such a high pick with so much like banking on him. It's like you can't be that guy in that spot. Like they they do need a little more from you and a little more just like presence to be honest. Yeah, every team needs wings, especially someone is long and has the shooting potential that he has. But then like, you know, he's just, he's just another wing out there. That seems pretty interchangeable. Like I almost wonder if you put him in the keel in a draft like right now, like who would you pick? It's kind of like, probably pick the kill just considering the track record. But I don't know. He seems like kind of of that caliber,

which is weird for a number one pick, but it's kind of where we are. Not even Nikiel. Like there's games where it's like, is Risa Shea offering dramatically more to the Hawks than Viet Kreti is for this game?

And the answer to that is, like, the answer to that often enough is like, they're kind of doing the same things and that is role, that circumstance, is all this stuff,

but you got to do a little more than that, I think. Oh, you're going Creachy, number one overall? I look, that is not what I said.

Yousa. Yeah. Do not quote me as saying, be great you should have been the number one overall pick i did not say that man put it in the paper all right well i want to kind of like just do a quick survey of the east because it feels like we need a little bit of a gut check based on where these teams are as we stand right now on november 5th is there a team you guys just feel like very good about or perhaps like you were in the mix of uh kind of in the middle about but like oh they they've overperformed

at this point like where are you feeling strongly rob as we sit here today. I am not. Okay, great. So where are you feeling okay about? Yeah, I mean, I'm looking across the landscape and I think you're either seeing younger teams we were hoping would take a leap and are just kind of more or less in the same place. You're seeing teams that were already quite good that have shaken something up and it hasn't yet like fully come to fruition. And you're seeing a lot of injured teams to be fair too. Like the Cavaliers might be like the team we would be talking about in this spot, whether they were just another regular season buzz saw like they were last year or they were like adding all this stuff and like, you know, diversifying what they do. But they've just

been so hurt that it's impossible to evaluate their offense, which has just like not been good and really suffered the repercussions of not just having injuries, but it's like they're missing this guard and that they're missing Darius Garland, too, is supposed to play tonight, we should say finally returning to the lineup, which will be huge, but also Max Drews and also Sam Merrill tonight. And so it's like the compounding effects of all that stuff, I think is really. taken the toll on the calves. But how do you look across the east? And aside from the mighty, mighty bulls think, like, oh, here is the standout team that has really put something together here. I just don't see the candidate for that. I was talking about the tears when we were texting.

And I went through, I had to do this just for myself. I think it goes from void of form, Brooklyn Nets completely. There just, there's, what is that? There's the, there's, the, I saw that James were shooting like 47% from three against the Brooklyn Nets or something. Some, like, truly ungodly percent. It's 100% flu. It's all going to come back down to us. I also love the Brooklyn fan that hit me up and was just like, what are you talking about?

Oklahoma City's bench would absolutely kick our ass. That was pretty funny. Love it when teams either don't say anything because they know your criticisms right or they're just like, you didn't go far enough. There's the void of form. There's the gestation teams. They're headed towards being something at Charlotte and Washington. There's the flailing teams because they've had a lot of bad luck, Boston, Indiana.

And then there's the teams that are the. They're greater than some of their parts. Miami and Toronto. I think Toronto's headed that way. Then there's the single silo teams that are sort of punching above their weight because they have one mode of creating things. What? What?

How many cheers do you have here, buddy? Lots of tears. Oh, it's about 40 more minutes to sit tight. No, there's the single silo teams who have like, who have one mode of creating offense that works, but I think in a playoff setting it's going to get stressed. You got Detroit with K, Milwaukee with Yanna, Chicago with Giddy, Atlanta with Trey when he gets back.

and then the conflict that it's not quite working wise and not working Orlando, and then the Philly Maxie and Bede thing that's going on. And then there's the teams that should be good that we want to believe in them. Like you're talking about when you're looking over the landscape of the apocalyptic hellscape of that's something like out of Terminator 2 with Cleveland. And my thing is like New York. I was like, I think this comes down to a reading the tea leaves, listening to my Brown talk after these games,

reading the Knicks fans comments. I'm not getting any kind of inspiration. Like, Knicks fans don't feel overly confident. It's just like, will that buy-in work? Because this is a team that's generating open shots. It's like, are they buying into like a, that's my answer, the Knicks roundabout way. It's like, is the 0.5 kind of mentality going to be bought in for them? I lean towards cautiously optimistic because I think that when I watch them produce the open shots,

I'm like, they're figuring it. Point five is more than just moving. It's like, you've got to figure out. where it needs to move. Just moving for moving's sake. I think people say that a lot of times they're like, move the ball. It's like, well, yeah, there's purpose to where it moves and when and why. And I think they're kind of figuring that out. And I do believe, do I think they're going to contend? No, but I do think that they're, you know, I don't know, do you all agree with that? To me, it just kind of comes down to a bet on that because I don't think Garland's ever going to be

healthy. I just, I'm so skeptical about that. Yeah, I mean, with the calves, I'm probably more disappointed than them than the Knicks because the Knicks at least have the excuse that they're a work in progress, that they're changing fundamentally who they are on offense. In addition to some of the injury concerns that have popped up, Mitchell Robinson. Josh Hart is like suggesting that his hand thing is like a nerve thing. Yeah, that didn't sound good. Mike Brown is like just not playing Yabuselli, the biggest concern of them all. He's like, oh, I can only find five minutes. Yeah, right. I can find 25 minutes, buddy. We got to get him up to seven so we can call him seven minute yabs. That's what I'm one. That's what I'm hoped for. Jesus Christ. The Cavs, on the other hand, they have a very, like, dynastic warriors thing where it's like, oh, my God,

our ninth man is in a Hall of Famer who might make the All-Star team. We completely are out of sorts. It's like you're paying the second apron specifically to build the type of depth to pace you through this sort of situation. You should be a little bit better. Like, Evan Mobley is probably the prince who was promised,

and it's just like, oh, can you carry you for a game when Donovan Mitchell is on the floor or even if he's not. It's just like there's so much there. I'm kind of out of excuses. And it's compounded by the fact that like all the playoff issues are just like weighing on this team where it's like even if they were being successful right now, I'd be like, it doesn't matter.

Let's see it in the playoffs. Sure. I do think the Capp situation, yeah, like Mowbly you would love if he could take a little bit more of the reins on those kinds of nights because as it stands, if Donovan Mitchell is out there, there's just so much pressure on him to create. The defense has been good and good enough. It's just they have to find some kind of work around. And you would think, to Kyle's larger point about Darius Garland,

that this team would understand how to play and function without Darius Garland. That if anyone has experience doing it, it would be the calves. And yet, here they are kind of running into the same walls they always do, just even harder to even less result. You know, I was going to say a quick thing here. If I had a turf toe, I don't know if you guys have ever had this hat. I'll work out in my basement sometimes and it's carpeted. And one time I dragged my toe and like sprained it, that's a motherfucker.

I don't know if you ever had that. The Sixers are not who I would want to see if I had a gimpy toe. I'm just saying that this could be really interesting. Those two styles coming together. I'm excited to watch that game. I hope Carlin's up for the challenge of how fast that that team's going to be moving. Well, should we talk about the Sixers Bulls Tilt last night, the clash for the top of the east? Wow.

I think the Sixers kind of showed who they are to a certain extent where, blistering offense. It's just they're going to put up a shit ton of points. But then you have In Bede just like slowly dragging the leg behind him. I think he was like one for 11 in the second half. Just seems like he's putting up every shot every time he gets the ball and it's always a jumper. Like I saw him go into the post. I was like, oh, Embed's crossing into the threshold of, of into the three point.

He's not hitting first. He's not hitting first. If he goes down there, Vouch was hitting him first. I was like, what is going on here? Like the deference that's going on on the Sixers is so interesting. like yeah sorry and you know and you know it's going to be a fall away jumper as soon as like he starts going down there it's like it's just very predictable and i i just wonder long term like how much that like even the good that he's giving him even in a first half is going to completely just give

it back on the defensive side and just like him not being who he was i've seen a lot of joel and b defense out there a lot of like box score watching of oh he put up 20 and therefore he must have had a good game, it's not really the case right now. I'm not saying he has no impact. I'm not saying he's not valuable in his way. Like they need some counterbalance scoring. They do need what he's even able to provide in this form. But all those limitations and the caveats and the offsetting things you just talked about, JV, like those are painful for the Sixers. Like an immobile player who isn't exerting his will on the game, but he's just kind of participating in it and knocking down some jumpers. That's not the MVP, Joel M.B. Like, I don't care how many 20-point games he has. Like,

He's not efficient right now. He's not a defensive force right now. And he's not a go-to offensive player right now, despite the fact that the Sixers do kind of bend in that direction sometimes when he's on the floor. And so what are you left with? It's like the shadow and the ghost of a player who used to be. And I hope he can get back into form. I hope we see the best version of Joelle Embed again.

But this version is hard to play with and work around. And I think it is a testament to the Sixers that they have been as successful as they've been, even while dealing with all those considerations. You just don't go into Chicago anymore, Kyle, and just pull out a win. You know, you can't just coast over a second half because when Giddy gets clicking, that ball starts to ping it, my friend. Yeah. Yeah, you don't waltz into, yeah, you don't waltz in there and expect to walk out with a win.

That game, man, I mean, Giddy was the one that puts them into the single silo thing. It's like, this team to me reminds me a little bit of that. I guess it was the 21 Knicks team that was very feel good that, you know, granted, Giddy's a way, way better processor and passer. Like, he can sustain and create better looks than that Randall duct tape together experience. I mean, I do wonder once a team has like a week to prepare for the Bulls, like what it's going to look like. But for now, it's very fun.

I mean, that left-handed, Rob pointed it out that the hammer action there that they ran in that game that Vouch made that shot. It wasn't the prettiest thing the way they climbed back into that game, but they you know, it's a fun time for Bulls fans. I sign off on all the joy that they're wanting to have. I'm good with it. Long term, what's the ceiling of it? I don't know. But that was a beautiful play in that game.

And you could just kind of feel it coming because the Sixers just came apart at the end of that. It is not a time to ask about the ceiling, Kyle. Like the spirit is moving through them and we just enjoy the ride while it lasts. And like, they're genuinely fun to watch and really successful. And this is the best basketball that Josh Giddy has ever played. I think you are seeing a bit of a shift in his life. game specifically in his work off the dribble and turning the corner on guys and just like the level of defensive rotation he's able to command right now looks and feels very very different

from the Josh Giddy we've seen in past seasons what how long will Giddy have to play well before you apologize to him or apologize to me what apologize to me specifically just like oh every time he does something well it's like oh he didn't play well in the thunder playoffs it's just like okay that I think you're confusing me with somebody else. My Josh Giddy stance is the same as it's ever been, which is like, this is a good productive player and a good passer who comes with a lot of considerations you have to work around.

And he's kind of chisling away at those. So I think the answer is like if he keeps chiseling away, then all of a sudden he's just like a freaking all-star, right? If he's piling up triple doubles every night and the bulls keep winning, at a certain point, that becomes undeniable. I've started to see people question whether or not he was the bigger thunder mistake.

In comparison to the James Hardin trade. Wow. Like there's a whole like split face sort of situation where Hardens on one side. But by people you mean your burner? Yeah, it's just for me working the Twitter. I've heard people say, Justin said, yeah. Put it to a slide show with my favorite mistake by Shrookro. Great song.

Yeah, he's still a baby too. I mean, that's the thing. Just the runway. That trade, I mean, where does that rank among the we both won trades of all time? Like it was just like we got too many guys. You guys need a guy. We need that specific type of guy. It just really worked out for both parties.

But it did. Yeah, he's got a lot of upside still. It's very young. We just keep saying the same thing about the Bulls and a lot of these teams where it's just like, man, they just keep beating up on all these bad teams. At a certain point, like this is just going to a mount. And I do wonder if the Bulls, especially when you look at the rest of the East and you look at even the good teams that we have, which I think like we were expecting like two to three teams being at the top there,

being the calves and Knicks and maybe the magic, but even they are closer to the bottom in terms of the magic than the top. Like at a certain point, just having an identity in an Eastern conference that's this mushy, I think it's just going to pay dividends, the point where it's like, would I expect the bulls to be in the top six by the end of the year? Probably not, but would it shock me at this point? No, if only because they have a model that works. And just something that works okay is actually putting you light years ahead of

practically everyone in the conference. Yeah, if you're in the West, you are just like having to fight your way through every spot in the standings, peeling off contenders left and right just to get like any foothold whatsoever. In the East, if you remotely have your shit together,

you're going to be the number three seed. So like there's a lot to go with here. They're going to have a lot of games against that level of competition, Justin. We're just like, you're going to have three or four games against the Nets and the Pacers. And if you're even like slightly healthy and you know how you play and you work together.

We might just look up in the Miami Heat are still in like the number four spot, even at the end of the season, even after they've cooled off, even after they've come back to Earth, even after the Knicks have risen, these teams just might be good enough to win and will out on competence alone. How many teams in the West have an identity and are still not going to do it? Like, okay, Thunder obviously, I would say Spurs have an identity. Lakers, they have an identity.

It's flawed, but they have an identity. The Nuggets obviously, the Rockets. the Warriors, the Timberwolves. That's seven teams I've named that have an identity. I think the Trailblazers do have a very careful. They have. And the Trailblazers, for God's sake. And it's, I just think about in the East where like, can someone just realize who they are?

I don't know. I just feel like we're just in front. It's, it's a funny, it's a funny slog. And the disparity is, I mean, we've had disparity between the two conferences for a long time. But like I said, just watching them side by side on a one night basis is just very jarring. Well, we should talk about the number three team in the east, like with a bullet right now, which I think kind of speaks to this, which is the Detroit Pistons who are at five and two. I wouldn't say they've covered themselves in glory, but at the very least, this is a team,

I think that knows who it is. And defensively, they're bringing the wood right now. They're fifth in defense. And I feel like Asar Thompson has like just completely set a record for starting ship for 36 already this year, because every game I look up and he's like in a fight with somebody, which is great to see. But like, that's who they are. And to that point, like, they're also leading. the league by far in personal

fouls and like you look at all of their like the teams around them it's all just bad teams that are doing it because they don't know how to play defense this is a tough rugged team that has carried over whatever just like swagger that they had from last season into this season and I think that's paying off offensively

yeah well we'll see pretty middling thus far I guess the hope you would have there Rob is just you know Ivy's there waiting the wings hopefully he'll be able to come back in the next couple weeks. Marcus Sasser, even just like having another point card

off the bench, I think would hopefully. Because I think they're not taking a lot of threes yet again, and so that's a concern. But at the very least, they have the defensive component. They could just be okay offensively. I think that's going to pay off to a certain extent. Yeah, I mean, they look really stifling on defense. And they're one of these teams where you can feel when they turn the pressure up.

And some of it is in these like bench lineups where you have Asar out there and Ron Holland out there. even like Javante Green, who offensively, I don't love the fit, but he can be a pressure defender and really pesky too, and you can see them just like

really tightening the screws on teams that are not ready for it. That's going to win you a lot of games in the regular season for sure. Their defense is completely playoff worthy. I'm not concerned about it. Kyle mentioned them earlier, though, in one of his 17 different tiers

as one of these single siloed teams. And you do- You do feel the last, lack of secondary playmaking. And Jalen Dern has some of that. And Asar Thompson has some of that. It's just not quite at the level where it's going to like break you through the east. And so if we're going to see development from the Pissons over this year, it's in that regard.

Right. It's it is the secondary creation. It is a secondary playmaking. Maybe Ivy coming back. He'll just like slot so easily into that role. Right now like Karris Lavert is back in a slot that I just like do not like for him. And I don't think he's played well at all as a result. Like all of the forward momentum we saw.

from him as a cavalier, becoming a different kind of player, has just been washed away as he's now pound the rock, Karas Leverd again. That's not what this team needs, and yet it is kind of what this team needs. They need someone to do that, just someone who's better at it than Karas Leverd. What do you make it the Duren wrinkle of this? You mentioned him, like, he obviously is nasty, big-time SOB shitster as they have a lot of those guys. But I was noticing, you know, early in his career when he was getting acclimated to the speed

of the NBA game and things like that, you noticed him. Like I'm just seeing a lot more occasions where maybe they're running a handoff. He's catching the ball, just attacking whoever is guarding him in space. And I kind of wonder once they get, I just think once they get, that'll be another dividend of getting another secondary playmaker back is you have a little bit more space. And he'll be able to kind of be choosy in those situations where he can earn some respect and then get off the ball. And that'll just be another additional help to them on offense to, you know, because he'll be out there on defense.

We know that. Yes. watching him face up is always funny because it's chaotic it's chaotic it's not pretty it's not pretty it's not also like his muscles are like as big as the basketball uh but at the very least he has that component to just to his game and i do think like at times like he's been one of their more effective offensive players just because like he gives the vertical threat and like that's a lot of what is going to unlock what kate does best right and so if you look at the numbers for instance like his on off stuff is like off the charge just because he's bringing it defensively And he's just doing what he's asked to be doing. He's doing what he's being asked to do offensively, which is effective. Undeniable. And he and Kate have that really easy synergy where Kate is just constantly locked in on exactly where Jalen Dern is on the court. Their chemistry is great.

Awesome to watch. Very, like, very hard to stop and negate. It is all the other, like, wild card stuff with him that is compelling. And I'm interested in, like, you see him, you'll see him do some like Evan Mowell grab and go and transition kind of stuff that's like okay he can outrun other centers and kind of slink by them in a way that could be exciting but they do like again they need someone in this spot so it's like i don't mind him trying stuff i don't mind any of these supporting pistons trying stuff it can't all be c'd all the time so like why not let us are try to create why not let jel

and during try to create even if it gets weird and chaotic like this is what we're here for I feel like the East is going to be dictated by whether or not Shams can like settle on whether Malik Beasley is or is not going to be investigated by the FBI because I don't know if you guys have been following this from afar but like I think he was in Detroit or like he keeps suggesting like there might be a chance he might still be able to get on the roster but wouldn't you if you were in his position just like keep putting it you know I've been hearing a lot of good buzzer on the water cooler about Justin Barrier getting signed by the Detroit Pistons oddly enough though he's like he kind of is the culture there like he just had that sort of braggadocious thing that

I think brought out the best in all those guys and just like the audacity just keep firing it up over and over and over again like that's something that Duncan Robinson despite the fact that he's like hitting shots like isn't going to bring and so I didn't love their off season in order to replace the guys that they lost shrewder and Beasley and Hardaway but if they get him back like I don't know I'm starting to feel like this team could be like a top three team in the east like for the full run it just has a nice cumulative effect across the board. Like it would help the Duren thing. Another thing too is that it's it's impacting Kade too. This is the fewest amount of like um, because to his credit people had labeled Kade as like a

heavy load insistent like I'm only pick and roll type guy. He has a little bit of reload three in his game. Sure. And he's not getting to do as much of that. I think because, you know, you add another shooter like that that can shoot off the dribble. I think that's going to benefit Kade. It's going to benefit Duncan Robinson. It's just yeah, whether or not that's Malik Beasley. I don't know. Maybe Shams can figure that out for us. another guy who can shoot period. Like adding, adding Duncan has been really important. And if you look at kind of the who went in the door and out the door of Detroit's off season,

I think it's easy, it was easy to gloss over some of just the volume of three point shooters that they were losing, right? Because it wasn't just Beasley, but Tim Hardaway Jr., Fontecio and Dennis Schrooter guys who are all like big get them up shooters for better or worse for Detroit last season. And so part of the reason they're just not taking that many threes is they don't have that many guys who actually do take them or want to take them. which then puts like Isaiah Stewart in a weird spot where he's kind of like marginalized to the perimeter on maybe a little too often or too many possessions in a row you're asking guys to kind of step outside themselves

because you don't have the volume of shooters you need so like Duncan Robinson could you know shoot 23s a game and it wouldn't be enough in some ways because you just need more guys on the floor who are presenting that threat. Who do you guys think we'll finish at the top of the east? Not like who will win the east but ultimately in the regular season standings

who will be number one. with the best record. I think it'll be Cleveland. Still. Yeah. Okay. I think the bar is high. Like, again, when they are mostly healthy, we know exactly what they can do from a regular season standpoint. Unless things that have just really gone sour and I don't necessarily get that impression just yet, I still think they're going to be the regular season leader for the East. Yeah, I think most likely. And I think the Lonzo thing is going to make a lot more sense, too. Once they get everybody back, we're going to see his superlatives pop a lot.

I don't know. Is there some wild outcome where no, there's not. Yeah, I was just like looking at the bucks and like the single silo thing. I was like looking at the bucks free throw distribution. It's like a lot of Janus, no one else. So that poor man, did you see him chirping at the official? The like sarcastic Janus chirping last night was like really cracking me up at Toronto. He gets a horrendous whistle. Like I don't know what Janus has done to the officials.

of the NBA. I think I think he gets a great whistle. I think he's getting raped last night. That's the thing. Like he initiates a lot of contact, but he gets a lot back at all points on the court in a way that I don't really think is explicable. I think he is though,

to your point, like playing it up as a bit now. Like he got a little like hot from all the Jalen Brown like, well, give me the hand but then put it over my head sort of thing. Like he's now going into full like comedic routine on some of these things. Did you see he's now a Coles sponsor?

He's showing up in commercials. Janice is the most Coles athlete I've ever. I mean, there's no doubt. It's so fun. No, Janus, he did like a pelvic thrust after he dunked and hit the ball with his garage. I'd never seen somebody do that. Yeah. Granted, I probably have.

But yeah, he's a Coles athlete for sure. I agree with you guys. Cavs or maybe Knicks still probably with the projection up there. If there's anyone to crash the party, I would probably put Detroit up there. just because they have guys coming in in a regular season where it's just about like stacking wins. Like they seem to be the most built for that sort of thing. But the Miami thing is novel is what we're saying.

We think that's novel. Like that's not going to continue. I mean, we saw them as like a hypothetical play in team and they might end up as the fifth or sixth. Like in that range. Like that's a good outcome for them. I don't think,

I don't think that's saying it's novel just to say that when you don't have a go-to star, it does have its repercussions even in the regular season. Yeah. I think we've figured. out overall, though. The East is a mess and barely watchable some nights, but I do think it's going to get better. I'm holding out hope. So many of these teams we're talking about are still early enough in their process that you'll see things like, you know, the Knicks will have a game where they get like 45 points from their bench. And it's like, okay, there's something happening

here that could be tangible, right? That could be something to build from. You'll see Kat, who, if we're going to say something about those like kind of read and react offenses, they're particularly hard on bigs. They're particularly difficult to like find your place and that sort of flow, it's just going to look better in February than it does now. And so if the calves get healthier and the Knicks get a better, like better understanding of how they're supposed to play, and some of these other teams even just like level out,

even slightly, then all of a sudden maybe the East is competent. It's just, you know, competent doesn't mean shit relative to the Western Conference, where if we transported the trailblazers to, I don't know, like Charleston, are they the third or fourth seat in this conference?

Wait, do we get a jar for Rob? because now that's like the third mention of the Blazers. Now I'm just taunting you. I'm just showing you that I can do it, but you can't. I see. What's the ruling there? Oh, come on.

That's right. I'll put the money in, but it's your money. I'm taking it out of your wallet. All right, that's fine. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia.

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