The Ringer NBA Show - Is John Wall Aging Gracefully? | The Answer

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Kyle and Seerat start the pod by celebrating Jordan Clarkson's impactful performances with the Utah Jazz this season. They then dive into John Wall's college and pro career, make comps to some of his younger contemporaries, and examine his speed and creativity (3:44). Next, they take a look at how he has adapted to the Clippers' system and the organizational playmaking skills his newest team is benefitting from (21:50). Finally, they explore why there is a decline in veterans playing in the current NBA, speculate on Wall's future in Los Angeles, and share some egregious pickup game anecdotes (30:35). Hosts: Seerat Sohi and J. Kyle Mann Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bill finally gave the ringers Philly crew a podcast. I'm Ben Solac. And I'm Shiel Capadia. That's right. Just a couple of Philly guys with a new space to fire off some Eagles takes get caught up in the Sixers, chaos, and more. We'll be coming to you twice a week on Sundays and Thursdays, plus bonus episodes whenever we get breaking news or Philly drama. Plus when Hardin and Embed somehow convince you suckers that this year's going to be different, our fellow Philly stands at the Ringer will have you covered on the Sixers and all your other favorite teams in town. It's Philly Sports Shield. What could possibly go wrong? Join the fun and follow the ringers Philly special now on Spotify. Basketball predictably, understandably, reliably is so very freaking good. And it's a beautiful day to talk about hoops.

Any day is a beautiful day to talk about hoops when I'm joined by Siritt Sohey, the poet laureate of Edmonton, the basketball guru that I have the pleasure of talking to on a weekly basis. Siriot, how you doing? I'm excellent after that intro. Yeah. I'm just, yeah, I'm just. Yeah, I'm just on cloud nine now.

You know, I was feeling a little self-conscious before we started. But I think I'm ready to pod. Feeling, feeling amped up. What's, what's you've been watching? What's kind of been on your kind of day-to-day hoops mind? Have you been excited about anything, discouraged by anything? What's going on with you? Well, I've been, I was talking to you about this before the podcast.

The play of one Jordan Clarkson has been an absolute revelation to me. I did not see this playmaking turn coming in his game. He is reading the game. I was at the Clippers game last night and David Locke who is probably you know has the sharpest eye on that

team has been you know talking about him how he is not only making better plays but also just like telling people where to go you know knowing what to do in a way that you know we had never seen this from Jordan Clarkson before and we had not

seen a lot of things from Utah jazz players that we're seeing now. Lauerin in a revelation as well. So I'm really enjoying watching that team lately. Yeah, I feel like the Utah Jazz just cumulatively, that's not even what we're here to talk about today, but I feel like they just kind of have been mis-evaluated in general.

But Clarkson is so interesting. Like, I kind of, people who put him in this box with, like, agree or disagree, they've kind of put him in this box with, like, guys who kind of are what they are, which is a useful thing. And almost like kind of the butt of a joke in a lot of situations. like, you know, a lot of comments about his confidence as a shooter, which is kind of both his weapon and his enemy. And I don't know.

I kind of feel like that's where Jordan Clarkson has been for a lot of his career. Yeah, I mean, also I think some of that's fair too. I mean, that is just kind of the player that he has shown himself to be. I think there was just a lot of ridiculous shots that he took for a long time. He kind of like, he has shot himself out of a playoff series before. He has just like taken some absolutely egregious shots. But he's, you know, he's averaging a career high in points and also 3.9 assists per game as well, which is not a career high. But when you, you know, combine that with the fact that Conley is healthy and the ball is moving around in general a lot more, it's a pretty impressive turn.

Yeah. Siritt's texting me from the Clippers game last night, just, you know, just really singing the praises of Jordan Clarkson, which I don't know that I would have predicted that when I got up yesterday. But, you know, we're not here to talk about Jordan Clarkson today. We're here to continue our series about adaptability, about evolution. What's another adjective that works here? Just the Darwinism of basketball, right? Adapt or die kind of thing, maybe not literally pass away, but be out of the league. Today we want to talk about something that I think is really important and relevant

because we kind of see stars go through this a lot of time. Well, I mean, it is relevant, particularly to stars, but I think it's of public interest because we kind of watch guys. We watch their narrative arc closely. Narrative arc is the thing that we kind of impose on the game, whether it needs to be there or not in a lot of situations. Today we want to talk about John Wall specifically. So we're just kind of talking about aging gracefully today in the NBA.

You went and talked to John Wall, and we want to talk about that for a second. But when do you remember first hearing about John Wall? Because I feel like he's kind of, he's a guy that has like a lot of respect within the basketball culture, you know? John Wall was like the first time one of my cousins respected my basketball opinion because... Oh, I want to hear about this. He was, I think it was when he was at Kentucky, and it was when he was going into the draft,

and we were kind of going back and forth about, you know, should he go number one or should Evan Turner go number one? I was always on the John Wall train. Like, I just, I loved his game. Obviously, like, he was just much more athletic. And I think Turner got more credit for being like a cerebral intelligent player, but I always just thought Wall's passing was really underrated. And he just had incredible eyes.

He's, you know, this was a guy who like, even when he got into the league, this was before the three point revolution, like before we knew how good of shots he's were. He was excellent in finding shooters in the corner. Like his driving kick game was, it wasn't LeBron James level, but he was definitely one of the better driving kick guys in the NBA. And he created a lot of efficient shots before we even knew that these were like really valuable shots to be taking. So I kind of imagine what he'd look like in the modern NBA. But he, yeah, he ended up obviously being a lot better than Evan Turner. And just I got, I got points for

that. So John Walt has a special place in my heart for feeding my ego more than anything else. That's always useful. That's good. I love that story. I love that you had to, you, you just kind of permeate basketball, like you just exude basketball savviness. So I'm surprised you had to win someone over, especially someone that knows you, that kind of surprises me? You would be shocked how little of my family respects my opinion sometimes. Been there. I think you're right about John Wall being like maybe it's the, when you impose your will athletically the way that he has in different settings, maybe people just automatically,

there are a lot of like stereotypical things about those player types where people are like, they just don't think of him. I think Morant's had some of that too. Morant was so just incendiary, athletic, bendy, bouncy, flexible. You just think of him as like an IRIS and score body type. But it's like, nah, Morant is like a really, really creative, manipulative, calculated passer. And I feel like Wall and Moran, I tweeted about this the other day that I think Moran is kind of the height of the overlap of those two qualities. Like super nuclear elite athlete point guard and passing playmaking chops.

But I feel like Wall is kind of behind him, not far. behind, but behind him. Yeah, I think, I mean, that's a great comparison. I think the difference is probably just how creative Jha is as a pastor. I think you were the one to say this, right? Like, that Jha is probably the most creative passer from that sort of combo athletic guard position, right? Yeah, I posited that. And I think that some of, I mean, athleticism drives it, honestly.

I think some of the situations that Jock can, but I think spatial, like, exploration of the floor and playmaking, those two things that go hand in hand. you know, the more you can navigate the floor with your ball skills, I feel like the more decisions are available to you. And Morant has decisions available to him that aren't available to other people, frankly. Yeah, absolutely. Like, creativity is something that's like exudes from every part of this game. It's not just his passing. It's basically just like, you know, anytime he gets into the paint, you just don't really know what he's going to do.

But also creativity is kind of a ladder as well, right? Like, Jaws game is built on players, like, while being able to kind of find the, like, the angles that he's, found in the game that a lot of other guys started to copy and then you kind of build up to a player like jaw right? I was going to say that like Wall is more of a like pierces, punctures the defense head on with his speed and you can

kind of see him trying to do some of that stuff now which I want to talk about in a minute. I think Wall just has been such an important I think we're paying attention to him just because of that cultural sort of narrative arc thing because Wall entered our life at a time where like Kentucky basketball

was in the dump They'd had two of the worst seasons they'd had in school history, and then Cal comes in. And Wall, he was going to go play for Cal at Memphis, but he hadn't confirmed that he was coming to Kentucky. And Kentucky had not had like a player, A, a rock star player like him, and B, just an athlete like him, like a guy that probably should be in the NBA. So when he announced, I remember I was substitute teaching at Rowland County High School in Moorhead, Kentucky. And this guy that I had established that, like, we'd talked just a couple times. knew I could tell I was a basketball fanatic. I was like handing out worksheets or something and this guy just poked his head in the classroom and he goes they got John Wall and it was a big big deal.

So like Wall comes and I remember there was a play where they had North Carolina at home and Wall took the ball off the rim or maybe somebody shoveled it to him. It was a short pass and he just hit the gas and went the length of the court and dunked in traffic in a way that point guards don't typically do. But man, he was just a thrilling, thrilling player to watch. And honestly, around that time, I can't remember and forward up until his injuries. If you think about players, like, getting it off the rim and, like, taking three or four dribbles to go the length of the court, who are, like, the fastest people that you can

remember, like, seeing do that? Because Wall is way up there for me, I would say. Wall still has a lot of that speed. that's what's kind of shocking about watching him on the clippers is that he can't go from zero to 100 like he does like he did back then but you know back in the day I don't think I'd ever seen a player move that quickly on the court I actually I actually can't think of a comparison can you? I would say Iverson was really fast like that but Ty Lawson was actually at his peak incredibly fast with the ball he could he could just make things happen as a result of that speed Lawson maybe a little better than people remember, like I feel like sometimes. Obviously had his, like, problems. But in terms of speed, those guys come to mind.

I can't really think. Is Smith is really fast, but not necessarily as effective. But yeah, so people can hit us up with, like, other guys that they can remember that are as fast if they want on Twitter or whatever. Daron Fox, maybe. That's another really good one. That's a good one. I guess the difference between, like, being guys that can finish, guys that can get in the teeth and make good decisions, things like that. But so Wall has kind of had a ride where, you know, he was sort of a load-bearing beam for the Wizards for several years, had his career year in 1617.

I think we would agree where he had his career high in points. He was averaging 23.1 a game, 10.7 assists per game. He's always been a little chaotic. That was something else I was going to add in here. His turnover numbers have been kind of high. I mean, you're going to get some of that when the ball is in your. hands and you play the way he does. But he's always he's always kind of flirted with that like troublesomely chaotic turnover prone, right? Absolutely. I think I think that year was also a career

high in turnovers, right? 4.1. He did it two years in a row 16 and 17. Yeah. So I talked to I talked to wall about a number of things, but I talked to him about this season. Um, he had said earlier this year that basically like he's, so he's, let's set this up. Like he's on the Clippers right now. And he is playing an entirely different role than he has ever played in his career. He is coming off the bench. He is on a minute's restriction. He is sometimes playing in dual point guard lineup. Sometimes he's off the ball. If he's playing with Kauai or PG or Reggie Jackson, there's a number of ball handlers on that team. He's much more of a table setter now than he ever was before. He's 32 years old. He's seen a number of injuries at this point in his career. So it's just kind of what led us to where we

are now, right? So it's like he had the Achilles and just didn't play in 21, 22. Yeah. And he also had, I think it was that season, right? He had one of the more unfortunately timed injuries getting injured in the middle of a series against Atlanta, which I think, looking back, they would have clearly won that series. And we don't talk about it enough because Atlanta was the number one seed and they ended up doing what they were supposed to do. But I think if Wall was healthy throughout that series, who knows where that Wizards team goes. So he's, He's definitely had, he's had a bad go of it. And that's not even getting into some of like the personal stuff that he's been through over like the last few years.

He wrote an excellent piece on the Players Tribune that I'm sure everyone has read it. If you haven't, though I would recommend that you do. He is incredibly open about so many of the things that he's been through. He lost his mom, you know, he lost the game for a long time. And as we're going to talk about, that is just something that's so huge to him. He, and a lot of guys love basketball, but this guy loves basketball. He was just kind of at the lowest of lows. You know, he was, he, he, he's talked about, you know, being suicidal and now everything he does is essentially for his kids.

And I just, I think it's amazing that he is so open about things like that, especially in the sports world, especially being a man. Like, it's just kind of, you know, it's big. I think, I think things like that kind of, they open up conversations for other people. It just kind of normalizes being able to talk about it. And he's just, you know, talking to him. One thing I noticed is he's really comfortable talking about anything. You know, he's kind of an open book. And he loves talking who, you know?

You know, a lot of times after a game, you talk to a player for a while. And they're like, they kind of want to get out of there. And with him, I was more sure just like, I shouldn't take him more of his time. But he was just going to. Yeah, I love when that happens. You know what I mean? I love when that happened. Yeah.

Well, you said there were a few things that jumped out just like little, little pieces of just like a short conversation you had with him that I liked, which was he started telling you about his. You and I were talking about our TV setups, but John Wall has, he's an obsessive hoops watcher apparently. Yeah, he has four TV set up in his house. He says one of them is usually on security. And the other three will have sports going on.

If it's Sunday, it's going to be red zone. If his security is there, then all four of the TVs are going to be on basketball. And like he'll be watching high school hoops, like women's and men. He'll be watching college. she was talking to me about how Kentucky, in his words, fucking stinks right now.

And I wish you were there, Kyle, because I didn't have a lot to add to that conversation. He goes, we fucking stink. I was rolling at that. That was great. And he's right. They do stink right now. But anyway. But yeah, he talked to me about that 2016, 2017 year.

And it kind of stuck out to me is the key of why he's been able to adapt. You know, basically, he just said he doesn't. want to be 2016 while he's glad that he doesn't have to be 2016 well he said it was too much and you know he probably had one of the highest usage rates in NBA history I actually checked that out and it turns out that he ranked 236th all time so that's not I mean for for a ball dominant point guard that's not too bad especially considering that he was the scorer and a sister for that team I think he basically put it as like he had to he was coming in saving the whole fucking city and franchise i also love how much he swears like it was just you know you're vibing uh

love a good swearer absolutely the heavy load thing is interesting to me like how many players this is just off the cuff here like i mean how many players do you think actually feel that way like do you think at the time he was thinking this is too much i wish i had help or is it kind of the dynamic like we talked about before where guys hit that hit that threshold of like the Luca MJ thing that you know that we were talking about I wonder how many guys really actively feel that or does some guys,

Luca seems to enjoy it. He seems to enjoy just having the keys and not giving them up. I don't know. I wonder if that, how normal that is in the moment to feel the anxiety of that for some guys. I think for most people,

when they're under pressure, they want to be in control of things. So if you are, like John Weil was, if you're the number one pick and you're trying to live up to that expectation, then having all of that, that burden on you and being able to carry it.

I think at least then you can tell yourself, like, okay, I was worth the number one pick. I want with Luca, I'm not sure. I feel like Luca just, he's kind of got the LeBron thing where he sees the game better than everybody else. So he wants to orchestrate things in a very particular way. But I think all players kind of have to learn that that's not necessarily going to be conducive to long-term winning. And I think that's what Wall learned.

Like, I think there's two things here. I think the fact that he looked at a season that actually ranked 236 all time in usage kind of shows you where his basketball sensibilities lie, where this is a guy who, you know, did get compared, he was compared to Rose a lot back then. And I think, like, Rose was somebody who was actually much more of a natural score than Wall was. Whereas, like, Wall was always a bit of a natural playmaker. And I wonder if he would have maybe preferred to lean into that part of his game if he could have. and that's kind of what he's getting to do with the clippers.

That's one of the reasons why I think it's working. But also just, you know, having all the injuries and now being 32 years old, you can tell that there's a sense that I get the sense that there's part of his pride that he's put aside just because he is realistic about what, you know, what can happen moving forward. And I think it also kind of comes back down to his love for the game as well. One of the things that he talked about was just, you know, just, just, yeah, how much he's like, he loves the game, like, whether it was, you know, you could take away the money and the fame and all that, and he'd still love playing basketball. And everybody says that, but I think that this is something that's genuinely true for him.

And he also said, like, you know, if he wants to play a lot more years, then he's going to have to adapt, right? Like, he doesn't love that he's on a minute's restriction. You know, he doesn't love that, you know, last game, third quarter. he has to come out the six-minute mark and Ty Lugos him and he's like, I don't want to take you out, but I have to. But he understands that. Like he understands, you know, this is the Clippers, right? Like they are the kings of load management, right? They are tracking everything these guys are doing. And they want to make sure that Wall and Kauai and PG who's out right now and all their vets, they peak at the right time. And so he's willing to understand that plan. And I think he's just had

experience now where he knows that that's going to be the best way to go about it. Let's talk about like in the basketball sense, specifically what's different for him on court. We talk about he, you know, a lot of those Wizards team base, they just had a core functionality that worked. Like, you know, I feel like the, I wanted to throw a stat at you too. And this is kind of just hitting on the evolution of who he's been as a player. And a little bit of like how the league has changed since he's been in the league. In Wall's first two years, he ran 865 pick and rolls. Out of how many of those, Siritt, do you think that he attempted a three as the ball handler in the pick and roll?

Oh, sorry, over how many seasons? Two seasons, his first two years in the league, he ran 865 pick and rolls. How many of them did he shoot a three when he was the handler? 40? No, lower. Really? 14. 14 times.

To give you an idea of how basketball has changed, I would love to see if there's another player carrying that load of pick and roll in the league now that's shooting that. I feel like the I feel like the cost to play the poker game of pick and roll in the NBA has, the buy-in is higher. You got to be shooting pull of threes, I think, at that volume, right? I have to met, even DeMarjorozoan in like his spursiest, most-of-fi-moments was definitely, like, over two seasons for probably shooting more than 14-3s off the pick-and-roll.

Yes, it's not many. I was going to say, too, another thing that always would amuse me, you know, you're talking about things that worked back then was Gortat. His social media presence always really amused me, A, because he would fight with people in the comments in, I forget the Polish, yeah, in Polish. And then he also would post highlights that were John Wall highlights, actually. It would always be some kind of pocket pass, some kind of drop, like, I don't know, they had a good chemistry, but I just, that always. amuse me their dynamics. I wasn't aware of that. That's awesome. That seems like a very Gortat thing to do. I was reading an interview from, I think, two days ago, where Gortat was talking about how, you know, him and Wall definitely, they clashed a little bit when they were

players, but he basically said, like, he would kill the play with him again. Yeah. You know, just because of how easy it was to play with him, like, that you'd basically just be standing in the paint and then find the ball in his hands thanks to him. Yeah, they had a nice chemistry. They had a nice dynamic. But, you know, as it evolved and we, and we move forward and Wall is now with the clippers. How would you say his, he definitely came around to shooting more threes, clearly, you know, over the course of his career, I think he's got, I think his touch is okay. You know, his career high was, was 2015-16, where he shot 30, 5.1% on 4.3 attempts. I don't think he's like an abysmal. You know, he wasn't like young Rubio abysmal, but he was, it was

definitely a thing that you would be more willing to give up than him getting into the paint. But how would you say his usage has evolved now? Like in terms of like adapting who he is and aging gracefully, how is he doing that on the court literally what the Clippers would you say? So his best shooting season was actually 27, 2018. He shot 37%. Granted, he did miss half of the season, but it was. Oh, you're right. Yeah, he shot 4.1 attempts for game. Moving on to the Clippers part this. So he is in an interesting place right now where I think as much as he doesn't want the pressure and is happy to play on this team where, you know, he said this is the best shooting group he's ever played with and the most talent he's ever played with. And that definitely

serves his playmaking skills and the more cerebral side of his game. But he is also kind of, like you said, a little chaotic on the turnovers. I think he's still figuring out, like, how to, how to play with these guys and also how to kind of slow his game down and realize that he doesn't necessarily have to go, you know, deep into the paint and try to, you know, muster something. And I think, I think for a long time in his career, that was kind of his job. Like, if I don't do it, nobody else will. So I got to get, like, real deep into the paint, like, draw a bunch of guys and then kick the ball out, right?

And while that's obviously very valuable to be able to do, like there are a lot of times where, you know, the passing angle isn't necessarily there and he forces it or he's just, you know, going, moving a little too fast for the game. He's always, he's always like moving a little bit. Even at this age, he's sometimes just way ahead of his teammates, right? So I think he's kind of in a middle ground right now where he's figuring out. Like, I think we got to talk about the 15 assist game he had against the spurs. he came off the bench earlier this week. And actually, I think it was the most assists on the Clippers since Chris Paul.

And I think the most assists coming off the bench since Poo Richardson. In 2007. And it was just a really exceptional sort of vintage John Wall Knight. But the thing that I really liked seeing was just not just the driving kicks, but how often it was just that he was setting the table. you know, Marcus Morris has a mismatch. So he gets everybody else to clear out. And, you know, he, then Marcus has the space to work and he gets a, he gets a quick bucket.

Or, you know, he's just surveying the action and you've got, you know, Kauai cutting or you've got Norman Powell cutting. And he just hits them real quickly. And he's just like, he's kind of in the top, at the top of the paint, letting a whole bunch of stuff happen around him and just reading the game. And those are those, those plays are a lot safer. Like, he's always going to be a guy who threads a needle. kind of making like high risk, high reward plays. But those ones, I think really balance it out. And the other thing

that I love, obviously I personally love, you personally love is just him being the screener in pick and roles, right? Like we've talked about this with Dennis Smith Jr. We've talked about this with a ton of different guards, how, you know, it's great how guards are in the pick and roll a lot more now.

And the thing that's really cool about John doing it is that he's such a great playmaker that if he gets a ball in the middle of the floor, you know, cutting off the pick and roll, then he's probably going four on three and has a ton of reads, or he's still athletic enough and savvy enough around the rim that he can just drive. So he's got a ton of options from that spot. And it's really good for the clippers, too, because this is a team like this. The reason they got John Wallace, because they really lacked in the playmaking department, right?

Like, this is a team that has all the talent in the world, but need somebody to organize it. And like, there was another moment, third quarter last game where he was on a floor with, with the bench and uh you know norman powell who was having a great game to that point hadn't gotten a lot of touches and you know he he comes off the pick and i was like i kind of had the perfect angle to see this but he comes off the pick and hits a shot and like you can see john just kind of looks at him and it's like you can feel there's there's something sort of starting to like matriculate in his head and the next three possessions down the floor he is basically like he he's waving off batum and he's like batum you go get in the corner

and like I'm going to be on the side and like he waves norman up and he's like hey okay like you're running this you're running this play right like he's just three three times in a row norm just he I think it was like jumper drive jumper and that's something the clippers really need like for a team that's really talented you need somebody who can recognize when somebody is going and just kind of keep going to the well over and over again and they haven't necessarily mastered that yet they're still really figuring it figuring each other out and they haven't really been healthy either. The second Kauai comes back, you know, that same game, Paul George leaves with an injury. So they're not at their their full strength right now. But when they are,

like things like that are going to be really vital. Yeah, I think that he's a really helpful tool in the sense that like we both know that like Kauai grew as like a pick and roll playmaker pastor type, you know, balancing the scoring with that. And Paul, Paul George obviously, I think he's going to sort of at like ideal optimism here like like being a optimization or being optimized. He is going to like take pressure off of Paul, I think off of PG because if he if PG is really going and teams start like blitzing or like hard like hedging, showing hard on his in pick and roll situations with him, uh, wall has just shown that he has like a sense for that. They haven't, they haven't done it like at volume yet. And like I've seen every single

clip where they got something productive out of him being the screener, uh, where he would just kind of slipped the middle was wall sensing that that was happening. And I think you're right that once he gets in the middle, I think you're just getting an above average playmaking mind. And as somebody that like, you know, you might get like Bruce Brown and that or Draymond and those guys both have their credibility in making like great plays. But I think that John's like passing vocabulary is wider. And I think it's true that like just throughout his career, we think of him as like a scoring

type. But I mean, you only averaged over 20 points like during his prime. I mean, like this is a. guy who's average somewhere between 16 and 20 points his whole career. He's not somebody that's trying to blitz you with offense all the time. But the point that you made about, like, his pace, it is funny. He still does do that. And I think it's him maybe kind of calibrating, getting a sense of, like, when he's over-penetrated. I know a lot of his turnovers were him trying to, like, float over the top to Zubotch. Yeah, it seems like some of those things are going to kind of run.

You would think they'll stabilize around the playoffs, but he's a nice tool for them. if teams start to load up against Kauai and Paul George. I also think part of it is coming off the bench and trying to make an impact right away. I think one of the things I kind of sense from just watching his interviews throughout the year so far is that he just he wants to be able to make more of an impact than he has. You know, like as we talk about the pressure of being the number one pick and all that stuff, but there's also a responsibility that I think certain guys crave and I think he's one of those guys. He wants to be able to make an impact.

I want to watch him, you know, on the bench, he's always talking. And it's, you know, I think one of the interesting things that's developed this season is just how well him and Reggie Jackson are playing together. I think they came in and it was like, okay, these guys are going to have to compete for the same minutes. And to some extent that's still true. And, you know, they have to compete for the starting position in training camp. But at the same time, like that, that duo is playing incredibly well together because, I mean, Reggie's more of a natural score, right? So if he has somebody like while setting him up, like, that's going to be great. And, like, you know, he checked out of the game and Reggie smiling because John had a good shift.

Like, they're happy for each other too, right? And that's like, being able to see those things on a team is like, is really good. Like, just, you know, we're going to talk about their long-term chemistry. So, yeah, there are a lot of different elements that go into, like, adapting and accepting a different role and what that means on the court and things like that. And I want to talk to you a little bit more about age in the NBA. And I want to talk to you about how that affects John Wall, how that's affected other players and the broad kind of themes in that. But before we do that, we're going to take a break. All right.

So John said something else interesting to you. It was a little aside. He just kind of said, he just threw it in there. He was talking about John's 32 years old now, which is like hard for me to like grapple with because I just think of him as like a young. I just think of him as a kid. You know, he is this like he always had this youthful energy. It's weird. It's weird for me to accept that he could be that old in the league, but which 32 is not old.

But in the NBA, once you get past 30, things start to get pretty tough, you know, to hang around. It gets harder. It's like the ageism thing that we were joking about with Michael Scott. John said something about that, though. Can you enlighten us on that? Yeah, he said, I feel like the league right now is trying to kick a lot of the veterans out. I feel like they're just moving, progressing to the younger guys, new generation, which is fine. But I think a lot of teams could use veterans for these young teams to give them guidance on how to be professionals.

Searot, what he said is true. I went back and looked at this over the past 10 seasons. Yeah, back in 2012-13, there were 132 players in the NBA over the age of 30. In 22, 23, this season, for anybody not paying attention, there are 90 players over the age of. So, big drop. And it's kind of like, I made a graph for you, but it's kind of gradually gone down. A, why do we think that is? let's just start there.

And then like, do we think that that number could change if we're kind of looking at some of the free agents that are out there? Is that a, is he right? Is that a case of the current NBA? Or is it just a blip? Is it something that the number will shoot back up? So 90 is like, let's take everyone through how dramatically low 90 is given the history. Yeah. I mean, it's significantly lower.

And you look at the players who are available over 30 that are on the free agent market. I don't think those guys are coming into the league. Like, I don't know. Is it a case of kind of the thing we've talked about that like it is just more difficult to hang around in the NBA because the talent level is up? I think maybe that can be part of it. I wonder if it's a faster league right now. But at the same time, like I just, I feel like he has a point. You know, there are certain guys who have genuinely edged themselves out that, you know, might not find a fit in the league.

But I think like the thing I kind of think about is the last two seasons of Jamal. Crawford just basically begging for a spot in the NBA and not being able to find one. There are a lot of teams that could use just like a professional who walks in and is happy every day or not necessarily always happy, but like just kind of has perspective on the NBA life. Like, I don't know. Houston's a great example, right? Like, I mean, I don't know exactly what goes on in that locker room, but like one of the first games of their season, they had that scuffle. And you can just see Eric Gordon's face.

Like you could put the curb your enthusiasm music on that clip and just zoom into his face because like he is just somewhere else. He's just like, oh, man, I'm too old for this shit, you know? Because he's like he's like the only guy there that's a vet, right? Well, like, well, I think it's like Jalen Green and Jabari getting into it, right? And, you know, it's just young teams are fragile. And I think that it's really important to have. But the clippers aren't young. That's the thing.

the Clippers are one of the oldest teams in the NBA. The Clippers aren't, yeah. The Clippers are actually one of those teams that's like a solid mix of vets that should be a veteran team because they all have like a kind of similar style of communication where like, while actually said something along the lines of not talking to me, but in another interview where it's like, you know, we all have kids on this team and we know what it's like to talk to our kids where like you have to explain everything to them and they don't necessarily want to listen. You shouldn't have to do that with grown adults, right? and I think this team kind of has guys like that like I think you know, Kauai will you know, take your process, go with it.

Like I think Morris is somebody who you know is going to say what he has to say and they're all kind of that way, right? So I think it works for them, right? But, you know, I think there are a lot of teams. I think like the biggest example right now that sticks out is the Warriors. You know, there's been a lot of writing on this

but you know, Rob Mahoney wrote a great call for us on just how warriors aren't necessarily doing a great job of sticking to their two-timeline approach. And when you watch them, like, you can kind of clearly see that there are guys, especially like, you know, Wiseman's not playing anymore. But Wiseman either did not know what to do or did not have much interest in executing what he was supposed to do. It could be either or it could be experience, could be unwillingness.

We don't really know. But at the same time, it kind of just shows you, like, for a team that runs such intricate stuff that requires such a high basketball IQ and like a very specific type of player for them to try to go and, you know, just get rid of all these vets and just assume that their young guys are going to be ready to execute. They're kind of seeing the drawbacks of that right now. And I think, like, you know, looking at the guys that are free agents right now, we're like, you know, Bielita is playing in the Euro League right now. And I think he was great for them in the regular season. I think he could come back. He's the only one here among this list.

It's like Carmelo, Lamarcus, Arisa, Millsap. I think he's. said you thought it could maybe potentially uh chalmers he's done i mean i saw him at the g league showcase last year he was he was fine but he's just not NBA Dwight i was saying which is a nice segue a little bit here to comment on the Dwight thing did you get it did you get a low what was your impression from from the taiwan yeah i've seen some instagram clips i haven't gone in like in and dug into you know i didn't i haven't checked the second second spectrum on that stuff you know just just haven't made the time yet you don't get the points for chance in front of you there? No, no. His room rolls. Yeah. But just, I mean, he can jump really high

still. That's what I got. That's all I got. Good for him. It's kind of, it kind of reminds me of like, it feels like some kind of a movie. I don't know. That whole, that whole story. Yeah. When I was going to comment on it, I was going to be like, this is like hilarious. But then, you know, you just can't, you can't joke about it. There's always somebody who's like, no, it's not hilarious for this very serious reason. I would say, you know, no, it's just funny. It's Dwight shooting threes. It's funny, guys.

I don't care. But what can we take away from this, I guess? Like, let's circle back. Like, what, is there a formula for a star? Because I was saying to you, a lot of the stars that we've seen have to adjust in a big way who have stayed in the league. And John falls into this list as somebody who was injured and had to get, like, was diverted. Sean Livingston.

So, you know, who knows what one of my favorite. players, but who knows what his role would have been if he had been healthy. Grant Hill is a guy who, Jesus Christ, if you didn't see Grant Hill in his prime, that is a must YouTube thing to do. Derek Rose is another one. What's the blueprint? Is it the conscientiousness of somebody like Wall to like embrace a lesser role? Because we're seeing Russ, who was on the other end of the spectrum, who was having a really hard time, which is kind of an episode all on its own. Is there a blueprint? What do you think? You know, it's impossible. to do a story like this and not necessarily think about Russ.

And I think it kind of comes back down to the pressure. Like one of the things that Russ always says is that, first of all, there was a ton of pressure on him last year, right? Like from the fans booing, harassing his family, to the organization to just no one's ever, if you're on the LeBron James team, like, you're going to be the one taking the blame. Like, that's how it goes. Things go wrong. Like, there will be a scapego.

And, like, it's also the Lakers. And, like, there's a culture of that there, too. So there was a lot of pressure on him. But every single time he was asked about that, basically said something along the lines of there's, nobody puts more pressure on me than I put on myself. And I think that the key for Wall has basically been doing the opposite of that, basically realizing that, yes, I can handle the pressure, but the pressure isn't necessarily good for me. And that you don't want to always be putting that person.

pressure on yourself. Like, I think the answer for for Russ, and, you know, we're seeing changes in his his game now, too, that's like definitely worth exploring at some point here. But I think the answer is realizing, like, hey, I actually don't have to be that guy anymore. There's no need for me to be that guy. So I'm going to go do something different now. But I think that also leads into something else that I think wall has keyed into and that's being able to find a way to be valuable. I think, you know, for everything that happened in, in Houston, he did have somewhat of a mentorship role there, right, with some of the young players. I think he found a little bit of value in that.

And I think he's now in this situation that really feeds into his play style. And he's excellent in transition. He is getting this team to run in a way that it hasn't run before. He's making plays for them in the way that they just haven't seen before. So he, I think, can feel how valuable he is. I think that's key. You know, I think some of this stuff is just psychological. It's being able to contribute.

We all want to contribute in some way, right? Yeah. And being able to, yeah, just being able to feel like, hey, I belong here. I'm bringing something unique that nobody else can bring. Like, that can just, that's a feeling of security as well. Yeah. I think playmaking is also a skill set that, like, I think the fact that he's physically still, you know, okay and functioning.

Like, and that is a skill set, I think, that can translate to a lot of situations and scale down. It doesn't necessarily have to be like super heavy load. I guess defensively he can hold up to. You know, last night though, we were, I was like singing his praises on Twitter in transition and I tweeted a clip of him in college how fucking fast he was and you should check that if you want. But Wall also had what eight turnovers, eight assists and eight turnovers. So that's kind of what we're doing. It's kind of leveling out. But I'd say you, I think we would both describe ourselves as fairly optimistic about this experiment. though, would you say?

Yeah. I think so. Yeah. So, yeah, I said eight assists, eight turnovers. It's kind of like I was saying to you. I was like, that's kind of the equivalent of me going and playing hard, pick up for two hours and then stopping for like a slice of pizza on the way home, which I do all the time. So I just negated what I did.

And I wanted to ask you before we go. I think that's just called balance. That's balance. Yeah. That segue to pick up with masterful and purposeful. Because I wanted to ask you about something. This is a little lighter. Sir, I have a question.

So talking about, and I want people to wait. in and kind of tell me what they think about this. So there's a guy that I play with at the gym I play with. A little older than me, sweetheart of a dude, love him personally. But this is just on court. He's one of those dudes who constantly, if you are not on his team, he will fake you out and call for the ball. Like he'll clap it.

He'll clap and try to get you to call for the ball. And it's not occasional. It's constantly. I've fallen prey to it many, many times. I usually get super, super pissed when it happens when I fall for it. A, have you ever known someone to do this? Have you done this? And what do you think about doing it all the time?

Ethically, do we think that that's like a permissible thing to be doing in pick up basketball? Is it worthy of disdain? Where's the disdain meter? What do you think? Well, Kyle, I have to ask, is you're, are you sure that your frustration and disdain is being like is it kind of being leveled at him are you perhaps projecting are you actually disgusted with yourself for continuously making the same mistake over and over again it's annoying you know if if it's on it's one of those things too it's kind of like uh you know

joe kim noe used to annoy me when he wasn't on my team but if he was on my team i would i would have loved him uh if he's on my team and people are throwing the ball to this person uh i think it's hilarious i just kind of i'm wondering to where i do you sign off on this behavior, Syriot. Would you ever do this? What do you think? I wouldn't do it. I would be exceptionally annoyed if it was happening to me. That's what I'm looking for. But it's a fair play. I'll allow it. Okay. Are you much for like shenanigans in like the basketball setting? Were you a charge taker? Did you kind of sell contact? Were you? Because I never was wired like that. I never did stuff like that. I have in my life, I have never taken a charge.

Like that's just in the penal system or the court. Yeah. never take. She has yet to take a charge. What about you? What about you? Are you? Oh, me on court? No. No, no, I took one charge and it was in a big game. We upset a team. This dude started to push me with his arm and I just fell backwards and it worked. And I was like, hey, that's a thing. I just, I never had the presence of mind to do it. I don't know. I just would never have that. Yeah. There's also something a little, I mean, I really, you know, admire players who will take charges because, like, just on a self-reservation level, no. If you're barreling at me

Like my body's reaction is not going to be to just stand there Right. I mean, yeah, you're going to fall down and it hurts. It's kind of a it's a thing you sign up for. Yeah. I will say though, I think like also it's just not really, you know, I think taking charges is something that's more of like the professional basketball world. Right. Like I play hard defense.

Like don't get me wrong. But like I'm probably going to try to block the shot or contest it or something else, you know? Right. Outside of the organized setting, you know, you're a jackass if you're trying to, you know, it's like, come on. Yeah. I was trying, I was thinking, we had somebody the other day and another egregious call. We had a dude call a, he called a kick when he tried to save it in about. And it was at game point.

Anyway, it was a lame thing. He tried to call a kick because he was trapped on the baseline and he tried to throw it in. And he was like, oh, it was kicked. And we were like, A, no, it wasn't. B, don't make that call. Yeah, like see, just like, go fuck yourself. No way. no way guy what do you what are you working on you want to promote anything before we go you

finishing anything up um not not finishing fortunately oh well i do have a i do a hoxing coming out um and you had a wamban yama video today as well i always tell people the day that i release a video i'm actually invincible for like 24 hours that's how i feel i feel i feel like i could i could get in front of a car and just put my hand up like that that anyway okay this makes sense actually because before the show, like listeners, you were not graced by this, but, you know, Kyle was singing. He came in just like, you're like humming, you know. Yeah. I think, um, I think my creative process has, is filled with so much dread that, uh, all self-inflicted and created, kind of like John Wall.

It's like you got to just accept, you know, that the pressure is maybe ego driven. So no, no, I feel a little lighter. I finished a Victor Wimbunyama video and, you know, if you want to, if you want to watch it and tell me you hate it, free but that is on YouTube yeah we also have a ton of great stuff on the site right now we we always have a ton of great stuff on the site but like man we have an embarrassment of riches like we got a Q&A with Shaq Tyler Parker wrote about Shay KOC's got his seven things Michael Pena he wrote he wrote about the nets and that's guys it's just Tuesday you know it's just Tuesday I mean come on and that's not to mention all the podcasts what it just an embarrassment of riches we

have absolutely what a site wow what a site what a time to be thankful, right? This week. Yes. Thanksgiving. I'm thankful. I'm grateful for all the great content. Me too. And I'm thankful for this pod, and I'm thankful to have seen you today, Siritt. Good to see you. I'll see you soon. See you all later.