The Ringer NBA Show - Is the NBA Trying Too Hard to Entertain Us, Or Is the Scoring Boom What We Need? | Group Chat (Ep. 326)

Episode Date: October 25, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan is joined by Justin Verrier, Haley O’Shaughnessy, and Paolo Uggetti to discuss whether fans will get sick of the routinely high-scoring games from the first week of the season (1:27). Then, they talk about the Thunder’s cramped roster and wonder whether some of the Cavaliers’ veteran pieces could help Oklahoma City (21:34). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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What if the caps are better without LeBron? Basketball is very good. Hello, and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. It's group chat. I am Chris Ryan. I'm joined by Haley Oshonisi. Thank you. Finally.

Yeah, finally the actual proper Celtic pronunciation, Justin Verrier. That was a little overwhelming. That's just like, what do you want? You're just like a wasp from Connecticut, man. I want you to be you. Follow Ugetti. What's up, man? What's up?

Today we're going to talk about fun. Because the NBA is pretty fun right now. But can you be too fun? Oh, my. Wow. No, seriously, are we going to get a stomach egg from all the candy? That's the question. It's almost Halloween.

And I'm just wondering, you know, there's a lot of skittles in this bag right now. And people are scoring, teams are scored 130 points a night routinely. The numbers are gaudy. The defense is non-existent. People are having a great time. Is this sport bending towards our demand for it to be entertainment?

First of all, I want to say that the team that we all said this about last year, other than the Warriors, was the Rockets. I didn't find them entertaining last year. And the Rockets are beep this season so far. Wow. Okay? Self-beep.

So, I mean, I don't think that you have a case at all. No, it's not a case. It's a discussion talk. I think you were making a case. Lieutenant Daniel Caffey, I'm just saying. Well, if anything, it seems like what the league is trying to do is veer away from a team like the Rockins and veer more toward a team like the Warriors to promote ball movement and obviously deep shooting threes.

I mean, we all seem to enjoy Steph Curry. Last night was a prime example of that. We're going to talk about that. He was just jacking at the end of that third quarter just to see if, like, it would go in. It was like closer to half court than three point line at a certain point. And if we all agree that's fun and that the leagues are shaped in order to make more of that happen, then I'm having a good time. Yeah, I mean, look, Warriors beat the Wizards 144-0-1-8-122 on a random Wednesday in October. And I feel like we had like, with all due respect to Kevin Durand, who's one of the best basketball players ever seen my life, we got our Warriors back.

When you get a night like that and Steph is chucking like that and they're playing the way that that they had some plays last night where I was just like, I don't feel like, I've seen this kind of like, you know, high screen, Draymond gets the ball and three guys dive to the hoop and he just kind of like throws it up in the air. It just seems like there was a certain effervescence to the way they were playing. They knew they had the W. It was really about the style in which they were going to do it. Here's what I'll say from my perspective.

Like I wasn't planning to necessarily go out of my way to watch Wizards Warriors. We as an editorial team. We're not necessarily planning that. There you go. So it's one of the few things that feels must watch. There are a lot of interesting stories going into the season. He's in the Lakers, the Raptors, the wolves. But nothing quite feels the way he feels when he gets going.

And that's so unique that I don't even know if it's so much that the league is heading that way. It's just that we are living through an age where we have a transcendent player. Yeah. I mean, it was almost like going back to like how this all started. It was going back to like watching how this modern, this contemporary NBA was birthed. It's like seeing all those shooters on the floor. I think Katie was six for six from three maybe. I don't know the numbers from front of me,

but he was talking after the game where he was like, we were all encouraging stuff to shoot. And then they were like, well, you had six. And he was like, it's easy. If he's doing that, the gravity of the floor, the geometry of the floor is completely altered. Yeah, and I think you hit on something that might symbolize just the extremes that we're getting at

is that everybody is rushing now to cover the three-point line, thus leaving open the rim. And especially as we're getting toward the point where guys like Brooke Lopez are essentially playing center and they're stretched all the way out to the three-point line and there's no longer any rim protection, you get sort of situations where guys can go scot-free to the rim. Oh, yeah.

And so I think that's the tension right there. We want to see three-pointers, we want to see points, but at the same time, we're getting to the point where anyone over 6-9, 6-10 can't really hang on the floor because they're just getting pulled out even farther, and then someone will just drive right by them and get a lay-up. I don't know if we want to see that as much. That's a good point.

I mean, there was a couple times actually during Atlanta, Dallas, where I was like, the guys like Dennis Smith Jr. had uncontested, unguarded looks like standing underneath the hoop. It was almost like cherry picking and a half court offense because they had four out anyway and then one guy would drift in and Luca would find him and it would just be like, oh, there's nobody there. And they're not really playing a center. So it's not like there's anybody that rim protecting anyway. I don't have a problem with it. It's just a different version of basketball. Well, but that's the thing is that there's always going to be a team with a player. Like, for example, like the heat, they have a very traditional center. When you face them, you still have to

go through that defense. Sure. So there's always going to be some team that will counter it like that. And eventually, I mean, this is, when you talk to, like, coaches and scouts in the league, they're like, yeah, it's very important now

for like these traditional, like, very built, muscular big men to, like, develop some kind of shooting game, but you're always going to need them because the game eventually moves backwards. Yeah, I think they're going to have to be able to play in space. That's what you wanted from all of your big men coming out of the draft this year.

Jaron Jackson, everyone thought would be would have an instant impact simply because he could play 1 through 5. Whereas DeAndre Aiton has shown early on that he can hang. The counting stats are good, but they're not making a huge difference. Right. And what did they give up to the Lakers last night? I think they lost by... Like 1.30.

Yeah, 1.30-something. One of the most interesting cases of that, I think, is Bagley. Mm-hmm. Because he's very much like... He would have been really, really great, like, five years ago. Yeah, he would have been Larry Johnson. And now his fit is kind of confusing. Do you think that there's, like, some really good NBA writer out?

there who like six years ago sold of like Roy Hibbert verticality book I don't think it's selling me and it's now just like waiting for it to come back around oh my gosh it's kind of crazy to just see though like the volume like we're talking about the Warriors and stuff

but they shot only 33-3s last night and I say only but if you go look at the Mavs and the Hawks game they both shot in the 40s like in terms of three counts so it's yeah it's like seeping into league so deeply like these teams that are like now centered around these young guys like Luca and Trey.

Like that is the game now. That 43's and I think the Mavs were ranked third if I remember the last time correctly like in terms of like three point frequency. The vulgaris effect, man. There you go. But you know what I'm saying? It's just so it's so normal to see those numbers now. And I don't know.

I mean, I'm okay with it. I just think I like, it's fun. Well, okay. So Kevin O'Connor wrote about this a little bit when he wrote about second spectrum and the clippers last week and this idea about if basketball could be adopting its own version of baseball's three true outcomes where it's like, the only thing you need to do is either strike out walk or hit Omer. Teams are just

like, we have figured out a way that even if we don't have that personnel, guys like Kevin Hooter or whatever can play in this league and be effective because they're capable of putting up 12 threes a night, you know? So what's interesting is that last night, so the team that

I think we should on the most beep, like for not being able or at least myself for like missing threes and three-point shooters is the wolves. And last night they had a great three-point shooting. And they actually were really bad in their in attempting

two-point field goals. And so that's kind of interesting is because like, even with the wolves last night, I'm kind of like, what is going on? Is this like your guys main focus? Because I don't remember how many shot

they shot either, but it was quite a lot. And I remember over the summer, their big addition was Anthony Tolliver. They attended 33's last night. How many did Tolliver make? Tolover made three of five. Yeah, it's just,

I didn't really think that he was going to be that important to them. them. Joshi Kogi's taking four threes. Jimmy Butler took seven threes. And at one point they're playing like... Carl took five threes. Yeah, and Carl Anthony Towns has been their best three-point shooter for like two seasons

running. Yeah. At a certain point, it's a math problem. We've talked about this a lot. Yeah. Even like the analytics suggests that even if you take a lot of threes, even if you're not making a high percentage of them, it's still a better percentage shot than any of those other ones.

So like, that's why teams are taking them in bunches. But if we look about like, what's the next step? Is this just going to go to the extreme where people are to jacking from the Are we getting up around 150, 140 a night? Right. And I think there is going to be a counter to a certain extent where we do see teams playing more through the post a little bit. If you have a five, like Jaron Jackson,

who can play one through five on defense and can stretch out to the perimeter, but can punish you in the post, I think that there's still a golden opportunity. I think the pelicans are a prime example of this. Yes, they shoot threes. Meritish hits a bunch. But if you look at their results

as I was just doing the past couple games or past three, they aren't shooting a ton they aren't making a ton except for their second game against the Kings and I think a big part of that is they have these guys that are able to create

like easy opportunities at the rim Anthony Davis is an assault on the rim Julius Randall is a downhill player that's going to hit you at the rim for Pay and Drew Holiday and so there is this counter sort of forming in the background and but the differences is

pace the difference is is a number of possessions and the how early in shot clocks people are getting their shot off and this 14 seconds off an offensive rebound that causes another, like, you're going to attempt it faster. You're not going to go out and reset

and run a whole new play. You're going to probably try to get something as quickly as possible. And that's what I think is really interesting. You know, moving on to the Hawkson Mavericks game I wanted to talk about because another element that always happens, this has been delightful this first week of the season,

is the way in which a rookie or a young player can transform a team. No single person here outside of, of like a diehard fan. Nobody in this room would have watched Mavs Hawks last October. You know what I mean?

Like we were not, this was, that not only was not of interest. It was actively like a bad basketball game. The gym was rocking. Shout out to Cuevo and Ice Trey. But the, like the Atlanta stadium

seemed really fun. And you've basically got three incredibly entertaining young players in Dennis Smith Jr., Luca Donchich and Trey Young. And even though Trey Young didn't actually do anything

until literally the last like seven minutes of the game, it still wound up being this incredibly refreshing, you know, provocative introduction to these new players who were playing on national television. This is like, I think this is Lucas' second national television game already. What did you guys think of watching those guys?

It was, I mean, it was really fun, but it's so interesting that you say that because it's like, it's like appointment TV almost, like the rookization, if you want to call it that of the league. Like, Luca had a great first court. I think he scored 12 points in six minutes. And then Trey, obviously, finish it at the end. And it's like this whole package of like, obviously the league selling to its customers, like, these are the guys who are next. But it's also we, we now get these guys so early. Like, we go, we become interested in them so early. By the time we finally see them on the big stage, it's a huge deal. We're so ready to decide whether or not they're going to be like the thing. I'm ready for Josh Akogi to just take Andrew Wiggins's job. I'm just like, oh yeah, let's do it.

That was so, okay, so that's like the second game he's missed for in, in how long? There's like a staff. I'll look it up. I think he missed like one game in 312 or something like that. The last game he missed was in 2015. I know that for sure. And he missed it in Toronto where he loves playing. He has great numbers in Toronto. He loves going off because he's Canadian.

So I thought that was very strange. Yeah, it's suspicious. I'm not. And then like the whole Carlisle-D-Towns thing when he like took a three and it was awful. Well, I would talk about the wolves in a sack. I was just, but like for, I mean, because there's a lot of. I'm just suspicious. I'm suspicious too.

We can get to it. But like with the Luca Tray stuff, you know. It's almost like having all these new TV shows where you're just like, I don't care about season four of Better Call Saul because there's like six new TV shows that came out this week. And so you're watching Jerry Jackson and Luca. Yeah, I mean, it's just the first glimpse of these guys that we've spent what now, a couple months, just like wondering like who they are and what they're going to be.

And especially this trade that got made on draft night pretty much like dominated a new cycle for weeks. Yeah. As we waited for free agency, I just love the fact that Tray Young is a thing. because for a while it was just like clearly the Hawks are terrible and it was almost set up as this binary where it was like Luca is going to be great and Trey Young thus has to be terrible

and when it comes down to it it's like both are pretty good so I don't know what Trey Young's future is in the league I don't know if he'll ever be Steph but I think there's a place for him if he could shoot like that and at least like be feisty and he also he has those first few seasons where he's going to be able to take the beating

that he's obviously taking it I think he went to the line like 13 shots in the line I thought it was promising that he went to align so many times. Because you can save a game that way. Yeah, exactly. And one bank shot 35-footer and was pretty much quiet. He had like a really good spin cycle move on somebody. But like for the most part, he got the hawks, he kept the hawks in the game from the straight.

Right. And obviously that's a lot to do with his passing as well, which it has been like is like the underrated skill that he has. 100%. Yeah. And it was interesting watching him in comparison to Luca because they're just so different types of players. Yeah. It looks like Trey just like drank a bunch of coffee right before he went on the floor. And everything for Trey is like, it comes.

hard in everything Lucas seems to come easy. Like he's just like, I can see over everybody, I play at the tempo I want to play at. It seems like almost basketball and the lack of hand-checking and maybe all this crazy offense suits Lucas' game. Right.

You know, he doesn't have to be like hyper-physical in defense and offense. It's like he's not absorbing a ton of contact. He's like, all the things that people were worried about with Luca with his athleticism and his body is like kind of besides the point because he has his brain. Those are two like the most lovable like NBA characters though.

Yeah. The like scrappy underdog who has like give so much exhaustion every game and then the guy who like transcends effort can just naturally do it. He's not even like trimming his beard at this point. He's like a full neck beard is going off. And he just doesn't care. It's a look. I love it. Let's talk about the wolves and the Raptors. So these are a tale of two franchises for sure. I mean the Raptors made I guess you, I mean at this point it's sort of a ridiculous to even call it like a risky decision because it's just in what the trade or in the Rosen trade. Yeah. I mean and and

and getting rid of the coach of the year. I mean, they are Nick Nurse, Nick Nurse Institute's. I guess a more modern offense, although I would mention that Detroit seems pretty modern when I was watching them against the Sixers, and Blake was essentially running point. But Toronto has no flaws right now. Like they just, everything that they're doing,

they can play slow, they can play fast, young, experienced, their defense is phenomenal. Yeah, and they have a number one scorer who can also guard the best player, player on the other team. And it just seems to have made Kyle Lowry 5% better. It seems to have made Fred Van Vlead 5%. Everybody around Kauai.

You're starting to hear Serge Abacca's name again. Exactly. I'm like, oh, I remember that guy. And then when you actually go through that roster and you see all those guys playing, you're like, they have 11 guys. Yeah. Like they can sustain this through three injuries. They consist.

I mean, not to Kauai necessarily, but they are deep. And Valen Tunis is coming off the bench. I saw our buddy Adam Neiman, who writes film. criticism for the ringer, like, was talking about how he can't believe how how the guys on the team seem to have obviously accepted new roles. Because they're just like, well, we're undefeated. This is great. We're really kicking ass. Yeah, on paper, it seemed like it made way more sense that even what the team they had last

year. Because it was just like Kauai makes them better in ways that like essentially just covered up to Rosen's flaws. And the one issue that we thought about was that how would this happen so quickly? I couldn't think of another player who was an MVP conversation that got traded and instantly had that impact. The closest thing I came up with was Charles Barkley. All these other recent examples have essentially flubbed. You look at Paul George, look at Dwight Howard with the Lakers.

But it just seems like everyone has adopted, as you were saying, Kauai is like the go-to guy. And everything falls in line in part of that. And they're just a better team as a result of that. I just love that Kauai's back in my life. Like just watching him on the court play, like do these freakish plays that he had to steal last night where he wasn't even looking at the password and he just stretched out his hands and he knew where the ball was going to be like nobody else makes that kind of play it's just it's so much fun to watch him and I think you know knock on what hopefully he stays healthy and if he does like I don't know I don't see why

this team shouldn't win the east you know like I just I just think that there's like you said they're so deep and maybe Justin what he agrees with that no I'm reluctant to agree but I at this point they are the best you're reluctant to agree because of what you saw from Boston last year? Yeah, just because I feel like they have more talent. They have like they go six deep with potential all stars essentially. And then I also wonder like who stops

Janus on this team if Kauai is like even 90% of who he is and especially the way Middleton's playing and they're playing. But you can throw a lot of bodies at Yianus. That's the thing that they do have is they do have OG, they do have Seacom, they do have Kauai, they can throw a couple of different looks at him. It's interesting that we haven't even mentioned the

Sixers in this. It's okay. I mean, do you want to talk about the Sixers? No, but I just think that... As being fun? Is that what you mean? Because they're like, they are a second season show now. They're like a third season TV show.

We're like, oh, yeah, Joelle. Yeah. Saying his real estate in Andre's head and Markell and Ben Simmons and... Thanks for the shout out. Haley wrote a piece about Joel and Bede having real estate in Andre Jumman's head. It's really good. No, I just think that that's interesting because entering the season,

I think that my question was, okay, was it going to be the Sixers of the Celtics? I was going to, like, take... Cleveland's hold as number one. And now it just seems like it's, I mean, yes, we're like a weekend, but it seems like it's going to be rotating until the end of the season,

which is exciting because it's more like the West. Yeah. Like they have the most, like, top-heavy talent that they've had in such a long time. And that's funny because... And these teams feel so new. Right. Yeah, and they're all seems so new, and that's funny because

LeBron's not there anymore. I think, I also think the bucks are in that mix. Oh, yeah, definitely. Because, like, just they look so much more... Pistons. You're laughing, but they're pretty good. No, yeah, they're good, you're right. Blake is kind of amazing when he's healthy.

And it was nice to see that again. Toronto, Milwaukee, Detroit, quietly Indiana's got a plus a point to. I mean, it's a point differential. It doesn't matter at this point, but they're like solid team. What about the Wizards? The Wizards are trash. The Wizards are one and three. They also have like an impossible.

They're just to have to go play in Golden State, like in the first week of the season, sucks. Also, speaking of LeBron, has anyone seen the Cavs point differential lately? It is minus 14.5. That actually, I want to talk about that for a second. So let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors because I have a follow-up question for this. So we'll be right back and we're going to talk a little bit about the Cavs, but also we're going to talk a little bit about buyers and sellers.

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You've got to check it out. Go to SimplySafe.com slash NBA. That's simplysafe.com slash NBA. All right, we're back. Ringar, NBA show, group chat, Paolo, Haley, Justin, Chris. Justin brought up the cabs right before we went to break, and there were minus 14 point differential.

And for as trash as they are, they have a lot of interesting pieces that could be used here. Yes. Yes. Like, if I were them, I would everything but SETI and Colin Sexton would have a for sale sign on it, including Tailu.

But like in terms of like, if you want to get into, like, I mean, Tai Lu going to the Lakers to replace Luke Walton will not happen. Just I know that Tailu probably does not want that in his life anymore. But, you know,

I think that they are a very interesting position right now because they have a lot of veteran pieces that a team making a playoff run, like the Sixers, like the Pacers, like Detroit, like a bunch of, of Western Conference teams might be interested in any number of their of their guys like a

Corver like a Kevin Love like a J.R. Smith like whoever. This is just, it's not fair at all what we do to Tailu. It's really not because he's put in the two most extreme positions that you can be as a coach. Dealing with a superstar who, I mean, I don't, I'm not in these huddles, but is not coached. You know, like he knows enough so that it's more like you're working together instead of like the hierarchy as normal. So you're saying bring the Lakers legend home? No, what I'm saying is it's just not fair because we can't really, you can't really judge him completely as a coach off that.

And then all of a sudden he has a frigging terrible team. He has a shell of a team with what, Kevin Love? I mean, but Kevin Love is still, we, I expected them to be in the mix for, I mean, maybe not a playoff spot, but like just to be semi-competitive. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because like they still, like Chris is saying, they have pieces. But like, the fact that they're... I think we overrated those pieces a lot

because those pieces were playing around LeBron. And I'll tell you what. That's totally fair. This is a team that has not quite adapted to the new NBA. They got cooked by Brooklyn and Atlanta. And, you know, you're not seeing a team that can play this kind of five-out, let's run, let's shoot basketball. Like, they're trying to get Kevin Love looks,

kind of like Minnesota looks. Exactly. And Kevin Love is their Carlinthay town. just in terms of like their best three-point shooter might be their most important guy to have inside as well. If you look at the box score, they only shot 18 threes last night. Obviously, we're talking earlier about team shooting 40. You can't do that in today's NBA. And Jordan Clarkson took four and missed all of them.

And Kyle Corber played 19 minutes and took only and took no threes. So what are we doing? That's such a good point. I actually forgot all about Kyle Corp. That's another guy that they could totally, totally talk another team into trading for something major. Especially later on when a team that maybe desperately needs a three-point shooter, like is heading into a playoff spot? I'll tell you what, the thunder are not unlike it in the same situation.

They're not unlike the caps. They are also 0 and 3. Their point differential is minus 11.7. Wondering what's going to go on with their offense is scary. They're not built to play this five-out basketball. Yeah, they don't have enough shooters. Like, Paul George is their best shooter, and that's not, like, that's not great because they don't really have, like, a knock-down shooter because George does some new other different things.

too much. You need more support around him. So Kevin Love to the Thunder? Sure. Would that help? I think it would. Obviously, I think they're going to have more struggles defensively because Love is going to hurt you on that end.

But I think they have enough plus defenders that they can cover them up. And as we've seen, their biggest issue is just like finding some sense of spacing. Patrick Patterson is just... I think the biggest issue is they have nobody to trade for Kevin Love. Unless you want to get off of Adams. But to your point, like, wouldn't you rather have a Kevin Love and be way tougher on offense now after what we've seen this first week, then be able to think about defense first? What do you think the plan is in Oklahoma?

Do you think that they're just like, we got a bunch of guys and let's hope that it slows down a little bit? Yeah, I think they probably think that it works. And I think that was best represented by what they did this offseason and essentially just bringing all of their ancillary guys back along with Paul George. I think that there's still a case to be made that it could. But as you've seen, like, I think everyone needs to be healthy. And I think they need to figure some stuff out in that front court to,

to really kind of make it work. I still believe in their defense. I still think, like, even if Roberson isn't there, there'll be above-average defense. But, I don't know, they're really working with a slim margin of error, and you wouldn't expect that for a team with, like, two all-stars. They do have a slim margin to error, but I also have a hard time saying that their off-season,

that they could have done anymore. I mean, they really did bring in the most necessary thing, which I think was a backup for Russ. And they brought in, like, a great backup, this guy who used to start. you know and like the biggest issue with him that everyone said is like well maybe him in Russell bump heads but I mean that's seriously what he's needed for so long

and then they brought in that group they brought in a group of guys who could go either way nerlands will be yeah you know that's my favorite small sample side stat so far is nerlands being the best player on the thunder so the thunder the Cavs I think you could put

Washington in this group of guys teams that could do some mid-season, hey, whatever you guys, nothing's nailed down here. If you guys see something that you make the best offer, let's get some draft picks in here.

I wouldn't be surprised. Is there anybody else that you see that you feel that way about? On the Cavs? I mean, no, I mean, like, other NBA teams that you're like, this is not going well and we're willing to, like,

trade whatever we got here. I think it's going to go, like, well for the Hornets overall. But I think that Kemba being like... Relatively. I mean, yeah. What do you mean? What do you mean?

What was that so passionate about the hornets? Don't put some merch the hornets. They're two and three. They can easily get the eight seed and that's probably fine for that. That's not fine. That's not fine. Okay, it's not fine. Hold yourself to a better standard, Pablo.

The hornets are, the hornets for the last, like, I don't even know how many seasons. When I think about them, I yawn. Ooh. Even with Malik Monk back? That's the thing. It sucks. I want, I've wanted Kemba to get. get out of there for so long. There you go. That's my point. I guess if it goes downhill there,

you could think about shipping Kemba off to a team that needs them. Like, do the Lakers. Because he's put in so much for them. He deserves better. Hornet for life, baby. Probably the heat. I'd say the heat. I don't think the Blazers will do it, but I wish that they would. Although, who knows, because they're always, they're always good in the regular season. It's just about what success is for your team. And they're kind of like where the Clippers were a couple years ago where they're like, you guys, we have everything. Yeah. We're just going to try it again in the postseason because why wouldn't we? We have everything

and it just never works out. Listen, Ennis Cantor, Tim Hardaway, Jr., they're available. Come get them. Let's make it happen. And it's just those sweet, sweet contracts. Let's talk about the Lakers and we can wrap it up there. Gons was writing, wrote something earlier this week about, not the panic button, but just basically

this idea that the Lakers are losing now to win later, that they're working at the Kinks and that it's a different kind of rough start for LeBron because unlike those Cleveland teams this is actually pretty fun to watch because of the personalities involved

and also the style of play. Agree or disagree. Yes, and probably because there's just more interest in the team because of the Lakers in the hand, LeBron. It's like, that's definitely the glass half full outlook but at the same time, if you do look at the teams that they played, they've been good teams

and they've hung with them. Yeah, and then they beat the team they beat the team they beat. Yeah, exactly. And the team that is the one they're supposed to be, to be like in the same time. I mean, makes for a playoff spot in the West. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think there's a reason to overact either way. I guess holding Phoenix to 113 is a stingy defensive effort. Yeah, we've got to recalibrate how you think about that.

It's like the bad boy pistons. The Lakers will have a rotating arsenal of excuses that they will be able to use. And that will get them through a lot of the season. And I think that that's fine. So right now, obviously, it's Ingram being suspended. And Ronda being suspended. Yeah. But it's all, then it can be the young guys, you know, and then it can be like, well, what are we going to do at center?

And then it can be rotations. Yeah. It's going to, like, it's going to take them a while or us a while to be like, okay, well, maybe like if they're still losing like this in December. I mean, not like this, but if they're still losing quite a bit of games. It depends what teams around them are doing. It depends on what kind of separation we're seeing in the Western Conference. Are we going to have like two or three teams that are really, really good? And then everybody's bunched together like we kind of did last year with like,

three through eight being separated by just a couple of games. I think that they will be in that mix, but towards the bottom of it. Interesting. I mean, we talked about this going into the season. It's just all of their core players are essentially young players. And those guys still have to play through mistakes. Even a guy like Josh Hart, who's already supplanted KCP in the starting lineup, like, he's still in his second year.

And he was the only one who made more than one three last night. Yeah, he was three for six. He was plus 21. I mean, you've written about Hart. Do you think he's more effective as a starter? That's an interesting question. Is there something about his personality? I was thinking about that last night because I wondered if he's almost kind of used to being that forgotten guy and that kind of like role player guy.

Just having that role of like, all right, I'm going to come in and like make the impact that like I think I can make. But in this like role of like almost unexpected. Yeah, a spark-clough guy after that. Yeah, exactly. I think he looked good last night. But yeah, maybe in the future. like, I mean, a bigger point to all of this is just Luke's rotation and how they shift on a game-to-game basis. But I do think it would be interesting to see if Hart at some point goes back to the bench and ends up playing still more minutes than KCP.

It just has a different kind of like feel for him. Okay. I am interested, like we were saying with the rookies earlier when we were talking about Mavs talks, that is interesting because last night when I was thinking about Hart, I was thinking another fun thing with this Lakers team is seeing which guys will emerge to take those kind of spots. Because Hart seems very obviously to be somebody that was discounted and as like, and he shouldn't be on like his role with these Lakers. Well, he can just do like a lot of little things really well. And I think that fits well for a player to play around LeBron. I think the interesting thing too is like we're talking about the rookies making impact like Luca and Trey. But the Lakers don't really have that right now too.

Like they obviously they had a late round pick right. They drafted Mo and he's been out with an injury. But even like they took a chance on Svi. But he's probably going to have to go to the gym. league and a few of these guys you know what I'm saying? So they don't, like, even if he was like their theoretical like off the bench shooter kind of guy,

like it doesn't look like he can be that right now, which is something that they might need, you know, just somebody who can go in there and hit shots. What is on their bench if you take heart away from there? You're basically running the offense through Lance Stevenson and as we saw last night, it worked, but it's essentially a desk for the entire time. I think we've all been

through that, that wash cycle before. You know, oh my God, Lance Stevens has triple double. Oh my God, Lance Stevenson, like, through the fall into the rafters in crunch time or something. You know, it's like that you live by it, you die by it. We'd be foolish to think that Lance Deiput said would be anything than what he's proven to be. Yeah. I was just going to say, when you were talking about this being them working out the kinks and us forgiving them for that,

Dan Tony said something really interesting last night. That kind of put me off. He said, we just have to hang in there for a little bit and go through some growing pains. What growing pains? They're all old, is what you're saying? I mean, they lost two of the guys that, like, made everything work in a reason and Bama Mutei, and they brought in a guy who is bad at basketball now. He's for 22 points.

That doesn't mean anything in this. The 22 points is like a splash in the bucket for the Rockets. They should not be a team after signing Chris Paul to this long contract that they're going to hate in two years who has growing pains. Talk about it. Talk about it. Let me go iceoball. I have a captive.

You're a captive audience if you're talking about it. hating on the Rockets. I know, I just think that that is not a valid excuse. I don't know what they mean growing pains. I think you're going to be fine. Your three most important players are the same. James Hardin, Chris Paul, Klincapella. I think it's both things.

I think you're right, but they need growing pains to work in some of the guys who are clearly not up to the level of the guys who were before. And obviously, if they're going to switch as much as they do and the Rocket switch more than anybody on defense, I think that takes a level of communication where you need to be able to trust James Ennis will be able to cover PJ Tucker in ways that Trevor Reza used to you because they're used to playing together.

I get what he's saying, but at the same time, I think you're right that they should be a little bit worried because I don't know if any of the solutions that they've tried have worked and will work. Well, and then I completely understand that, and I get what you're saying about losing the defensive pieces, but it lets not act like they haven't had issues on offense, too. And I think that's what's so confusing to me.

Yeah, I mean, they... Hardin could be... is probably a little injured and playing through a hamstring. But like, look, we're talking about who started all this like fun electric basketball and pouring it in and the three true outcomes basketball.

I mean, it's Mori. And Mori's playing a really like a pretty high, high wire act right now because he's starting Michael Carter Williams. You know what I mean? Like this team is old, on the older side in some places in some very important places. And guys like Hardin and Paul are coming up. I mean, it's Hardin especially with his MVP

season last year, played like a guy playing for an MVP trophy. So he played a lot of games and a lot of minutes and had a lot of usage. And it might come back to bite them a little bit this season. It reminds me a lot of the late era Miami Heat big three teams. That's a great

comparison. Just because you build your team around three giant contracts and they essentially have that now with Paul Hardin and now Clint Capella. And then you also have the money you're paying to Tucker. It leaves you with so few options to fill out the other spots. And if you're not going to want to go deep into the luxury tax as it seemed like they weren't willing to do

this offseason and pay guys like Ariza and Bamute, you're just really hoping for flyers and guys that you just bring into your system and kind of coach up. And so far, that hasn't worked. I will say, I am curious to see what happens with Marquis Chris. He's a guy that, like, everyone assumed maybe you get him into that system and all of a sudden he's catching lobs from Chris Paul and that sparks something. But again, he's not going to help your defense. And that's where their biggest issue is. Do you know who had, um, who had, played 39 minutes, took 17 shots last night. It was a minus 5 off the bench.

Carmelow. That's also not good. He did score a lot to him. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, they help sometimes. This is, they are the bad side of what we're talking about. They were 11 for 40 from 3 last night. That's just, you're going to, often you will lose a basketball game when you're shooting

that high volume of shots from 3 and missing. You only hitting 27%. On the other hand, I do want to talk a little bit about the jazz. Just because it's been a slower start relative to some of the. Absolutely explosive starts we've seen around the league. And we already had a Donovan Mitchell, Quinn Snyder one-on-one to talk about how he'd been doing the early of the season. And he fucking cooked these guys last night. Yeah.

38 points, 14 for 25 from the field, four threes, five boards and seven assists. Go ISO ball. On what? I don't even know what to say anymore. Well, I mean, this is a huge season for him. It is a huge season for him. Are you Dwayne Wade? You know, it's like, what are, like, are you the guy?

Let's see it. I think that all of us are pretty... Don't all of us assume that he's going to have another step this year and be like a little bit more solid than he was last year? Well, I thought that he might have a little bit of a come down simply because a lot of the shots he was taking and what he's asked to do on the offense,

it seemed like a lot for someone who wasn't necessarily a super efficient player last year. But... He started off really bad from the three last season. And so we'll see what happens going forward, but I just, I mean, Quinn Snyder's offense is just so precise. It's basically a machine. And that's why when everybody was saying all these things in the preseason, like, no, they can't live up to what they were at the end of last regular season.

I was just like, they've gotten better in every way from that team that they were last year. They brought back everybody. And then they had Exum. They had another year of Jay Crowder, who everyone wants a bag on because he was so bad in Cleveland, but is actually like an okay defensive four in order to try to like chase down some of these offensive fours. I just, I love their team and I would like to point out that in our takes post leading into the season, I predicted that they would be number two in the West. So I'm just going to throw out there. That's a lot. It's a lot. I don't know if I'd be like proudly doing it. All right. Let's do that in the season.

Yeah, I just, I think Utah's really interesting just because he's such a volume shooter that if he is, and he said I was in my head for the first few games and he had like some seven for 25 nights. And that's, you're going to live by it. You're going to die by it. I mean, that was his story last year. though. Yeah, but Norie was expecting it. It was just that he was a rookie. Yeah. And so it was amazing. I do think he'll be the same. I just think he'll be more consistent this season.

Yeah. Let's bring it all full circle. And let's talk about the other side of these high scoring games and a little bit about how Vegas is reacting to it. So I tweeted Monday that the lesson from the NBA so far was just take the over and everything. But Vegas has already hit. So what does that mean? It means that they've already set the line. Yeah. On Tuesday.

So everybody knows, we're talking about like, you know, the combined score of the two teams in a game. That's the over. Yes. Yes. Yes. So on Tuesday, two of them hit. And then I checked last night because there were so many high-scoring games. I thought, okay, I'm wondering, like, how many turned out.

And only two of the overs. So they've kind of already adjusted to this being a league-wide trend. Yeah. I mean, obviously the Wizards' Golden State game wasn't over. and then the Bucks game barely was by two points everything else wasn't under Cavs, Nicks, wolves, hornets, rockets, pacer's.

Yeah, so I mean, I guess I take it back. Because I mean, the Jazz held the Rockets to 89 points, which I thought was notable. Yeah, they thought that that was made 218. I mean, it's the Rockets, you know? That's like what we were talking about earlier. Everyone, of all these teams, the Rockets are usually that team

that's like scoring way above the rest of the league. Do you feel like, does Vegas adjust like this Do you think Vegas knows something that we don't hear or is there like a massive like overreaction going on? Like what do you think you can derive from this? That Vegas knows something that we don't? Is that your question? No, I think that Vegas just watches very closely

and they were like, huh, that's weird. Everyone's, yeah. Everybody's shooting threes. Nobody's really playing defense yet. And they're not calling it. They're allowing guys to. Freedom of movement. Yeah, and they're giving a lot of freedom of movement.

I've already heard that phrase like 20 times. It's like been like one week. All right. Well, you keep us up to day. I would take some unexpected over. You would take unexpected over. It's like, look at tonight. What do you think it would be?

Okay, that's look. I'm going to fill in time here and say Kevin Love was just, it just said he's out for tonight with left with sorenness. So I think the tank is getting an early start. You think that Cleveland's tanking now? Do Cleveland have their pick this year? I'm not, I'm not being serious. I think if it's in the top 10.

Is it? It's the corporate trade, isn't it? Yeah, it's protected. I believe lottery or top 10 or something. Okay. Okay, so Boston, Oklahoma. I don't know what the overunder is, but I wouldn't take the overrunner.

I would not either. Now Denver Lakers seems like you would. But Lakers on a back-to-back. Lakers on a back-to-back. And Denver's got a good defense. They're missing Ingram. Wow. What if Denver's got a good defense?

It's true. No, it's crazy to think about it. Denver has actually failed multiple overs this season. They've missed it. Yeah, because Vegas knows. Unless you're me and then you know more than Vegas. Brought to you by the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce. Haley the Greek.

Haley the Greek. Stay tuned tomorrow when we'll get another episode of the Corner 3 with Charks, Danny, and Kevin O'Connor. We're here at least four days a week. So we're just to say we'll probably pop up one of these Wednesdays. Until next time for Palo, Justin, and Haley. I'm Chris. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.