The Ringer NBA Show - Is the Steph Curry Discourse Getting Out of Hand? | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

Logan and Raja start off by getting into the flopping and dirty fouls of Raja’s past (1:00), then discuss the over-the-top Steph Curry discourse following the Warriors’ abysmal start and Steph’s 62-point career-high performance (9:40), as well as the lengthened injury-recovery period that has produced explosive play from John Wall and Kevin Durant (25:47).  Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping real ones? Slogan Murdoch here with Roger Bell. We're recording this on a Sunday night. Right after Steph just went bonkers, Steph Curry just had 62 points, eight threes, eight for 31 from the field, Roger? And the Warriors won by 15. Put some respect on that man's name.

That's what he's going to need to do, though, Logan. Like, listen, like, you got to treat this like you're playing at your local Y or the JCC or the CYO, what have you in your area, Steph. Get buckets. And if the rest of them come along with you, cool. And if they don't, cool. See? See? That's what I'm... Hey, listen, listen.

Y'all need to put some respect on that man's name. Okay. Steph has been about that action for a while now. We'll get to a lot of that in the podcast. But damn, he went off. Real ones coming up next. Ah. What's popping? Real Ones.

This is Logan Murdoch. I'm here with Roger Bell, who has this Nike golf hat on so you know he means business. How you feeling, dog? Rubber baby buggy bumpers. Word. We're recording this on a Sunday evening.

It is 7 p.m. West Coast time. It is 10 p.m. wherever the hell, Raja is. Very late right now. I don't know if you guys can see this right now, but it's real dark in his crib. He looks like he's in the dungeon. He has like Army fatigues on. It's just like he's ready to go. She sells.

She sells by the she shore. Right? Okay. You never took an acting class like in high school? You never took drama. No. You had to do all those little like a box of biscuits, a box of mixed biscuits and a biscuit mixer. You have to say that shit.

Like real fast to get your like to get your enunciation or pronunciation down. Like that's my, that's what I'm doing. Is that how you like learned how to enunciate early on with the, is that, did that help you for interviews? It actually did. Yeah. It did a little bit. Okay.

Were you in any plays? Did you do King Lear? Did you do any Hamlet? I did. I did know. I did no plays. Um, I did enjoy.

the acting class, though, I must say. Like, there was, like, some very interesting peeps in acting class. And I took it in college. Did that help you in any way on the court? Maybe, you know, you know, go for a call or anything. Did that help in any way? I know what you're alluding to. I feel the direction you're trying to lead me down.

And full disclosure, I was on, I was on Instagram this weekend and someone tagged me in a BS post about... Was it the Kobe one? It was the Kobe one. Wait, let me talk about it because they did it for me too. Okay, go ahead then. Go, please take the floor. The floor is yours. So there's a, there's a preseason game.

I wasn't even alluded to this. It just seemed like a funny joke. First of all, why does preseason even matter? Like, why, the fact that it's preseason, like, why does that even play into it? Roger, Roger, Roger. Let's tell the people the story first, okay? Let's just get to, let's get to the shits. Hold on.

Get to the shits. So they, the person, I don't even know who it is. They sent it to me. It was a clip of you playing in Anaheim against Kobe on a preseason at the Honda Center. He's trying to get positioned. And you just clearly just flop. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. He just doesn't even do anything.

He's just trying to get position. And you just flop. And he looks at you with utter disgust, which I believe you deserve in that moment because you definitely flopped. Explain that play to me if you guys were on YouTube. It wasn't discussed, though. You misconstrued the facial expression.

It was like disbelief. It was bewilderment that I could fall with such a light touch. But I don't remember the, play like specifically but what i would say to a play like that is i need you uncertain about how much punishment i'm going to take pre-flop so if you're always on your toes as to like oh shit is he about the flop well then i've got you thinking about something other than what you want to do right and so those were just little games within the game you know what i mean are you a flopper rogerbell

i read some of the comments about like you know someone being in my head all the top and live in rent-free. Like, yeah, I couldn't help it. I read some of them. I got you. I could dig it. But what I would say to that is, like, that's what I was trying to do by those flopping antics,

was trying to get you to be worrying about me taking the dive, you know? Are you a flop or Roger Bell? I'm not above. I'm not above a flop. Listen, I'm not above a flop. I took plenty of good charges, but I am not, I'm not saying that I am too good to flop.

Okay. So, like, what is the science behind flopping? because you know us as fans were like, where would he do that? What's going on? It's disrespectful for the game to be doing this. Right. You know what else is disrespectful for the game?

Any star shooting 30 free throws because he ain't shooting the ball well at night so he could get his numbers. That too is disrespectful to the damn game. So before I let you do that, I'm going to flop. You were just all... This is me at 10 p.m. This is what you want and you got it.

Is this the Matt Hooper? Does the Matt Hooper making a return? Right. Say it real quick. Say it. Just get it all out. But tell them why I'm mad, son. Tell me why you're mad, sir. You'll put me up on Instagram, talk about I'm taking a flop. Well, I'm going to let you know why I'm flopping.

I always wanted to know that, bro. Because I get it in a strategy, man, like it is. Everyone flops, bro. Every superstar has flop before. Every role player has flop before. It's part of the game, bro. Where are you mad when they issued the fines for the flopping, where they said you have the tears if you do,

this that you will get fined for doing this. Did you get pissed off about that at all? Yes. Initially, I was, I was pissed because I felt like you were targeting a certain segment of the population. But then very quickly, I changed my opinion on that because to your point, stars flop too. And I figure that's going to be purely subjective. And you're not going to be able to levy as many fines as you think. Because if you're going to get me for taking like, first of all, there's no way for you to tell by the naked eye how much weight I should be able to take in the middle of my chest before I have to fall down. So then it becomes a real gray area and you can't really find someone like that. Then, you know, I would take it to like, look, every time like one of

those stars goes to the rack and they're throwing a ball up and they're yelling and screaming or Genoblee is flopping all over the place, like you're going to have to find them too. So I was okay with it. So did you have to adjust your flopping at all? Did you have to like, because I don't think you're a flopper. I think that was one picture, like one thing. I don't think you were a flopper, but... I wouldn't call myself a flopper. No, seriously. Right, yeah. I don't think you were. I wasn't a... But I would flop. Like, if I had to, and I felt like, you know, I could gain, you know, some sort of, like, you know, advantage in that matchup, but I didn't come out, like, setting the tone to flop. But anyone who would, you know, typically, like, push off a little

bit or something like that, like, that's an advantage gained and it's rarely ever called on the offense. And so as a defender, occasionally, you've got to, you know, make that so egregious look into a ref that it's going to force him to call it one way or the other. And then that kind of kind of, you know, again, it'll have someone thinking about whether or not they kind of push you off in the chest or not to get open. And then you, you know, that's a win. Is it easier to do it because I see like a guy like Shaq? And we're going to get to the shit. So I just have one thing to ask. When you're guarding a guy like Shaq or you're guarding a bigger guy like that, are you more incentivized to flop more or less?

Yeah, that's a really good question. Thankfully, I didn't have to ever really guard Shaq. I do have a funny Shaq story about, like, I'll tell that on another pod. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, you won't. You'll tell it right now. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Go ahead. So I told you one of my pet peeves, like, on one of the episodes prior, was like the hand in the face, like right to your nose, the palm on your nose when you shoot the ball. Another one of my huge pet peeves, and it's lightweight, kind of dangerous, is the stepping, the fake challenge of a shot. way up high and then sticking the foot under. The Jalen Rose on Kobe Bryant joint. Yeah, I'm going to put my foot under you. Like, you know, that, you know, people say I was dirty. I'd never do that to nobody. Like, that wasn't my style. Like, you know what I mean? Play hard. And if I had to, I'd do what I need to do.

But I had a beef with that. So I was hot in Miami at home at the crib, getting buckets. And I pulled up around Fritho line and Shaq comes out to challenge. He never challenges a jump shot. Like, that's not what he does. He's never out there challenging a jump shot. And I come down on his big ass foot. And I roll the shit out of my ankle. And it cost me like four games. And then I get back spasms because of it and all of that. So long story short, I'm pissed. I don't know Shaq though. So Shaq gets traded to Phoenix. And I'm like, yo, man, you know, we were cool. But I said something like, yo, man, that was kind of some bullshit like what you did, bro. And he's like, no, man, I would never do that. I wouldn't do it. I was like, yo, dog, I'm going to take you to the tape. So we like took like five of us into like the

the video room to look at the play. And this big joker, after he watched it, he was like, yeah, man, I did it, man. But I didn't really know you back then, man. I'm sorry. And so he did it on purpose, bro. I'm like, bro, it cost me like four games to an ankle and probably four more to back spasms because of the ankle.

Like, that's, I can't get that back. But yeah, that's my shack's feet are like as big as a city block. Like, it's real, his feet are huge. 20 plus. Damn, Doc. I'm sorry to hear that, man. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to hear that, Roger Bell.

I'm sorry. I apologize. Shack's my dude, though. It's all water under the bridge. Yes, sir. Let's get to the shits, man. And so, like I said, we're recording this at seven, now it's 714 Pacific time. And when we got off of this, Steph Curry was falling out of control.

He had 31 in the first half against the Blazers. And, you know, I live in the Bay Area, Roger. and there was a lot of Steph slander over to start this season, right? He's not shooting well enough. He can't win without Kevin, all these things. It's not the same. Everything you want to hear about the Warriors, right? And the Warriors are one of the teams that you said you were looking at this season.

And my question to you is, where we're going too hard with the Steph takes to start the season and how irresponsible is it to go at a star player of that caliber and saying just he's washed, he's terrible, da-da-da-da-da. And why do we always get too ahead of ourselves in that? Well, if you were one of the people saying that he was washed and- I was not, I want to say for the record, I was not one of those people. Right, bet.

But if you were, like not you per se, but if anyone listening were, then, yeah, that's irresponsible. and you should probably, you know, just pump your brakes. The reality of it is, Logan, Steph Curry is coming off of, you know, a season in which he didn't, what do you play? How many games he played last year? Four games. Four games, right? Regular season games.

And that in and of itself is going to have a level of rust on you as a player when you come back. That's going to take some time to work through. You couple that with the fact that, and I don't buy into the whole. he can't win without Kevin Durant. That's ludicrous. Like he was winning before Kevin Durant got there. Like I don't buy into that at all. But when you take into a fact that he missed a whole year and then when he comes back,

he's without Kevin Durant. He's without Clay Thompson. And when they first started out this season, he was without Draymond. Well, then you've got to learn to play a whole new way within what you're trying to do there in Golden State. Like the guys he's playing with, there's no shot at Kelly Ubre or Andrew Wiggins, but they don't have the same basketball IQ as Draymond and Clay. I'm not saying it's worse.

It could be better, but things are different, right? And so you're learning how to navigate within that system that is the current Golden State Warriors team. And so it's going to take a minute. So yeah, you should be ashamed of yourself. Like, you should pump your brakes. Every time I see an argument around Steph, especially, you know, you're not on Twitter.

I'm on Twitter. Whenever I see it, it's always in the way of, of, well, so what if he doesn't have teammates right now? Like, LeBron doesn't have the teammates. LeBron didn't have the teammates in 07 when he took the Cleveland Cavaliers to the finals. And my response is, whoever said Steph was LeBron James. And I'm not saying that, like, Steph isn't great because he absolutely is. I saw it firsthand, you know, but to always try to compare, it's not apples, it's apples and oranges.

Like, it's not the same, right? You're comparing two different things. And I think people forget, and Kevin Durant is a great player. I saw him firsthand. We're going to get to him in a second. But people, I think, forget about how great of a player Steph is. This is the same guy who before Kevin Durant beat Kevin Durant, beat James Hardin, beat Dame Lillardt, right, has beaten all these guys when he was leading a team. And I think people forget that, right?

He came back from a 3-1 deficit against probably the best OKC team of that era, to be honest. And I think that the Warriors aren't in there, even if the Warriors are, they go to the finals that year. I just think people forget how great he is. But even with him being great, you don't have to compare him to LeBron because he's not LeBron. He's never been LeBron. He's never been better than LeBron. Is that fair? It's very fair.

No one's ever been LeBron. Even Michael Jordan is not LeBron. They are completely different players, too. And LeBron can check so many boxes for a team that he's able to play without certain pieces because he checks that box physically with what he can do. And, you know, like Steph Curry for whatever it's worth, and this is, this, he doesn't have the physical ability to check all the other boxes that LeBron can check. He's, he's six three.

Correct. So like that's, it's an unfair comparison. You know, I'll ask you, you're out there. You've followed them, you know, probably more than I have, even though I'm a fan and I got to play with them as a rook. He used to bring us Benets from Cafe Dumas when he was a rookie. Really? Do you have any, we got to get some pre, before we get to this question, do you have any pre-stardom, Steph stories? Because you got him like when he was baby, baby. He was a baby. And I knew I had gotten traded from Charlotte where I was with his dad all the time on the Bobcats broadcast.

So, like, I kind of knew him through his dad. I used to go watch, you know, some stuff at his high school. And so when I was in the Charlotte area, I got to Golden State, I wasn't playing. And I would try to be there as like an elder statesman, you know what I mean, kind of being there to talk to the young guys and Anthony Morrow was on that team. They had a lot of young dudes on that team. And I remember Steph came off one game. You could tell he was special. I mean, you could just see, it wasn't every game that he was just dominating, but there was something in every game that was like, damn, that's different. But he came out, right?

And I went to give him a dab, right? So if you can imagine I had the fist up, like, going to give him a dab. And he hit me with, like, the bent wrist, like, going to give me, like, the back of his hand type of deal. Okay. Yeah. And I felt some kind of way about that. And I remember, I was like, yo, dog, don't do that. Like, you know, we just had to have a quick little moment.

Like, don't do that shit. That's not cool. Basketball players are hell of funny, man. Yeah, don't really take that to heart. Yeah. Like, that's some, don't do that shit. You know, we were like. Give me a dab.

But he was cool. And even, you know, I'm sure that he knew what he had in him. We thought that there was something there. But even with all of that, I've been around rooks that were not really cool with being a rook. Like, Steph was super cool about being a rook and doing his rook duties, you know? So I've always thought he was great people and a really good player. And even if, and this was my question, I wanted to get to it, even if he's not the same dude that he was five years ago, I mean, I still think he's still in his prime and still fully capable.

They just got to figure out how to do it around him right now with what they got. So my question to you is, is he that dude? I mean, yeah, I think he's that dude. I don't think he's, I still think he's a top 10 player in his league. He's one of those guys you build around. They just haven't built a cohesive team around him since Kevin left. And that's, that is what it is. You know what I mean?

Like I said, his resume speaks for itself. He is beaten Kevin Durant, whom, like, I don't necessarily think the step is better than Kevin Durant, but he's beaten Kevin, he's beaten Dame, he's beating LeBron James, all before he led his team to 73 wins in the season, right? Like, his resume speaks for itself. I think there's a little backlash to that coming,

but if you look at the current team, there isn't Andre Aguadala on that team. No one can shoot on this Golden State Warriors team. I tend to agree with you with everything you just said. I will just, I will double down on what you're saying. Now, first of all, James Wiseman is going to be great. He's a baby. Have you seen James Wiseman?

No, no. He's going to be phenomenal. He's going to be phenomenal. But he's a baby. Like he's a, he's 19. There's a reason why, like, championship level teams don't go out and acquire a bunch of young players. They're just not ready to win consistently in the NBA. They've got growing to do.

Kelly Ubre was one for 29 from threes. let that sink in. Like one from 29, one for 29. Like I got a nine-year-old that can do that right now in the backyard. Like it's going to be hard for Steph who needs space to navigate around a court when everything about his team offensively suggests to the defense that they can just shut his space down because no one else is going to be able to do anything. They're doing a box and one on him in regular season games right now

because no one else can hit a three. You can just let that sink in, right? You don't do that until the postseason. Yeah, they're like, now, we'll do it now. We'll start game three. We'll start game three to do that. And I think the Warriors will be fine. They just, Kelly Ubrae is not going to shoot one for 29 every day.

No, he's not going to do. That's not going to happen. The wild card is probably Wiggins. But the thing that happened with the Warriors is when Kevin left, they chose to accumulate assets that they said, you know, we're going to make sure our infrastructure makes DeAngelo Russell great. That didn't happen. We're going to make sure our infrastructure is so good that we're going to make Wiggins great.

And we're going to make him in a way that no other team has made him. That hasn't happened so far. So instead you, you know, this is what you have right now. Can I ask this question then? So we've touched on the step. Do you think, as much as I'll defend Steph, I will say that it seems almost as if you being Golden State in this equation, like the front office and the coaches,

maybe you guys thought that what you were doing had was some proprietary like blend of stuff that was like maybe it's just not that dope. Maybe you guys had some really fantastic players and stuff. Because to your point, your infrastructure hasn't been able to take Wiggins or DeMes, or DiAngelo and turn them into what you thought that they could be. So have you overvalued yourself if you're Golden State, the front office, the culture, the player development side of it? Like, is that a possibility?

That might be a possibility. I mean, they have, you know, development guys. Eric Pascals is a guy like that. But I think there's another caveat to that is, I mean, you just, Kevin Durant walked out and Clay Thompson is not playing for the next, last two seasons, right? So, I mean, I think this team is still like a could go deep in the postseason with Steph and Clay there and a front court.

But there is an argument to be made that like, yo, this team just wasn't built great. There's no front court. You know who their front court is, Raja? Tell me, Logan. It's James Wiseman, Kavon, Lune, and Alan Smileygeach. Excuse me? Yeah, that's their front court. That's their center rotation.

Yeah, that's, that's, I mean, you're not going to, you're not going to win many basketball games with that as your starting center rotation. No matter how great Wiseman is or will be, he's 19 years old and really, and has played like nine games in three years. You know what I mean? So, right. Exactly. So there's a lot of things that needs to be done. And that's why I don't know. I think the warrior's ceiling right now is probably like an AFC seventh seat at best.

And we all say that and producer Sasha just said that Steph has 45 at the end of the third quarter. Yeah, that's the mad hooper. He's going to have to do that. He is the mad hooper. He's going to have to do that every night, though, for him to have a chance. Well, I see, that's kind of where I think Steph has to get to. Because it's tough. Like, and I was only posing the question about the Golden State, like, maybe overvaluing.

I don't know that to be the case. I don't really, that's not my opinion on that. But like when you said that they thought culturally they would be able to bring these guys along and it didn't work, then I thought it was an interesting question. But it's going to be hard for a coach. to get Steph to realize what he has to do because, you know, to some degree... Sometimes he can be a passive superstar.

He can be. And to some degree, that's an indictment on everything else that you've got around him, right? And you don't want to be going to one dude on your team saying, hey, bro, listen, Kelly Ubrae and Andrew Wiggas can't get it done, dog. I need you to shoot 55 times.

Like, you can't do that all the time. You know what I'm saying? So Steph's got to come to a point where he's like, listen, I'm doing this every night. Or at least I'm going down, shooting them every night. I'm going to give myself a chance

to have 50 almost every night. Sometimes he has to just treat this Warriors team like it's Davidson and just be like, well, I guess you know, you guys aren't just as good as me. I just got to shoot every time. But the thing is, like, he's passive and that's good and bad, right?

It's good because he was able to take a step back when Kevin Durant got on the team and rightfully so, right? And but sometimes, like, you can't be setting a back screen for someone that is not as good. good as you to get them open when you're the best three-point shooter on the planet, right? I mean, that's fair, right?

Sometimes you've got to know you're that dude. It's fair, but what, you know, you try to teach kids when you're growing up is sometimes, you know, you set great screens and you become the guy that's open. So I would only say that to your point. Like, if he's setting a great back screen and his man's got to touch so somebody doesn't get a lob at the rim, and he's going to be wide open for the thing? What do you tell your son if he's the best shooter of all time and he's setting a back screen for someone that shoots an airball from three point range?

I tell the passer, hey, you're not looking for him. You're looking for Dia coming off after he sets the screen. Like, that's on the passer, not the damn screener. Fair. Fair. I think, yeah, Steph's a superstar man. He's like a generational talent. That's not even, like, a question.

That's not debatable. It's not debatable. No. Yes. So another thing that I'm looking at that has been on my mind, and we're going to get to it after we take a quick. break, but John Wall, Kevin Durant, and how we look at Achilles' injuries. That's going to come up next.

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And we're back. The boy's in his bag tonight, boy. You know, buys? We're back. So I've been, one of the biggest storylines I've been seen is the return of an Achilles tear from John Wall and Kevin Durant. Now John Wall right now is averaging 25,

5 and 7 right now. It's been two games, a little sample size, but it's John Wall numbers. He's looking like John Wall right now in a Houston Rockets Union. And Kevin Durant is averaging 28, 6 and 4, 18 months off of an Achilles injury. Now, we have seen Achilles' injury.

It's just like it's the worst injury, historically in basketball, right? It's just the death of wish once you get that Achilles. We saw that with Kobe. I think the only person that's been... We saw that with Isaiah Thomas. The only person I think that's really done well has been Dominique Wilkins, right?

And usually, I'll take Kobe, he got his... He tore his Achilles, I think, April of 2013 and came back December of 2013, and was never the same. We can all say that, right? Because, you know, he started having other things that were injured structurally.

His knee was hurt, you know. A lot of things happened. But he was never the same after the Achilles. Meanwhile, John Wall and Kevin Durant have had damn near 18 months to recover from an Achilles. And they have been both been playing dominant. But my question to you, Raja, is, should we be looking at these two examples of how they've been playing as a reason to not rush players back onto the floor? floor before they're ready or is it more nuanced than that um i think it's a i think it's a little more nuanced than that but it's it's you never want to rush a player back but this i think this is

specific to the type of injury right like so i think what we're learning um and admittedly like i don't know the procedure that was done if it varied from what happened you know what was done to cobi or isaiah like i don't know how far they've come medically with the procedure itself but the rest i think what you're taking away from this if you're a team that ever has a player of any significance, hurt that Achilles, is you don't want them to come back 12 months later. You want to definitely err on the side of caution and a year and a half worth of rest because I was wrong about both of these cats. I was just wrong about how they would look physically, Logan. I knew they both were really, really great players. And, you know, I thought if Kevin Durant came back at 80% of himself,

he'd still be one of the top, you know, five to 10 players in the league. But he looks, he looked better than 80% already. You know, he looks like he's at 90, 95%. I didn't see that coming off of an Achilles. So I think we're learning a lot about specifically Achilles injury, whatever that rehab looked like for them. And then the rest that you need to really come back and kind of look like yourself. I mean, Boogie had that injury. And he didn't take 80s, 18 months and he did not look good, right? That goes into the nuance part though, right, Roger? Because this goes into my next question.

Both of those guys, John Wall had just signed his max deal, right? He was going to be on the hook with the Wizards or whoever he played for for four or five years, right? He was already signed. Kevin had already signed him to a deal as well, right? So they had leeway to have that rest. And they're both star players. Boogie, on the other hand. is playing on a prove-it deal.

And his second or maybe third, since he toured his Achilles initially, he had one with the Warriors, one with the Lakers, and now one in Houston, right? So how much pressure is it to get on the floor when you have an injury

to get that bag, right? How much more security do you get, like a Kevin Durant or a John Wall? Is there more pressure to getting on the floor when you are injured and are in a contract year,

Roger? Well, I'm sure there is, you know, because you want to prove to everyone that, you know, you're worth what you thought you were worth or what the open market would bear this time when you're a free agent. But you can't, you have to balance like the want to come back with the self-awareness of where you are in your rehab and what you're going to look like when you do come back. Because if you have two case scenarios, like if you don't look very good because the injury is, is, is. isn't healed yet and you're lumbering and and you can't get the job done. Or B, if your kinetic chain is off and you wind up tearing something else, which is what I thought happened to Boogie and Golden State. Like, you could tell that he what, his gate wasn't normal.

He was, he was lumbering and then he winds up tearing what his quad or something like that. Like if either of one of those two things happen. And it still played and then came back for the finals and then tour his ACL. Right. Like you're doing more. damaged than good, like very literally. So you have to, you have to really be, you know, and it is tough because you want to make that money. Like I only have one, I only have one real experience with that. And I was not boogie. I was not going to make that kind of money or KD

or John Wall, but it was the year I traded to Golden State. I had torn a scaffold lunate ligament against the Lakers in preseason. It was a ligament in my left wrist. And it was really painful. But I could have played that year. My wrist just felt like it was floating all around the place and I wasn't going to be able to do the things in a contract year that I thought I needed to be able to do, which was be really handsy defensively, you know, things that were going to put that really painful injury in harm's weight, night in and night out, right? And so, like, I elected to have surgery and really make sure that that wrist was good and healed before I went into free agency. I mean, I don't know that it worked out for me or that it didn't, but the point was that I had to

weigh that out. And I didn't think I was going to be able to do a good enough job with the wrist the way it was to really make myself money that year. So I elected to have the surgery and try to be healthy and come back and people maybe pay me off of what I had done prior to the injury. So before you get surgery like that, or is that what you're thinking like, well, you know, I've done such a great job beforehand and I've put this body to work, body of work together. They're just going to have to trust that. Is there a fear in that like right before you get surgery that, you know, it might not, I might not get this bread that I thought I was going to get. Oh, absolutely. There's a lot of uncertainty there. You know, those, there are a lot of conversations

with your agent about, you know, the pros and cons of both. And, you know, this is what it looks like if you play. Like, here's, here's, you know, what do you have to gain? You know, and there's a lot of factors that go into that. Like, my situation, I was on a Bobcat's team that wasn't great. Like, there were a lot of guys, like, there was no real stability in terms of, you know, how many shots you were going to get from night to night. Like, whether you were going to play X amount of minutes night to night. Larry Brown was kind of looking for answers. And so even if I had played through that,

no guarantee that my numbers would be good enough to command more than I would had I set out that year and actually got healthy. Right? So you're having a lot of real frank, real honest, real, you know, soul-bearing conversations with your agent and vice versa. He's got to shoot it straight with you. And so, yeah, but you trust, like, you know, at least I'd, that I was going to shoot and play defense.

And so from one year to the next, I wouldn't have lost that much in terms of my ability to shoot the ball and defend. And it would just be whether or not I was healthy and a good team would probably, you know, swing, swing at me in free agency. How much, how honest is your agent in that situation? Is it just, do you have to have a good agent in that way?

Like, who holds the power to say, hey, bro, you need to sit down? Is there trust in that? How does it? Tell me about that dynamic. Yeah, well, so picking an agent, you should have a lot of trust in your agent. Like you guys should feel real comfortable with being honest with each other about the situation, right? Because, you know, whatever situation comes up, you know, it's almost like it is your lawyer.

It's not like your lawyer. It is your lawyer, right? Like you go into the courtroom lying to your damn lawyer and then they're up there, you know, you got to be honest about what took place. And so those conversations are difficult. Like when I got to Golden State, you know, I could have probably played like the last five games of the season that year. You know, like it wasn't worth it. Like those conversations I wanted to play.

And who was it, Larry Riley and Don Nelson at the time wanted me to play. And I actually did play one game because they were so shorthanded. I flew to Boston. I met them and I played in a game with the bad, you know, wrist. And then I went home to have the surgery. But the conversations that we had, you know, heard. was my agent at the time, Herb Rudo. And he was like, it's not worth it.

Like, you don't play. Use that time, like, pregame and to go out there and show everybody that you look good and you're running and you're shooting well. And I've talked about that time before, but don't play. And, like, we had that conversation. And I wanted to play. And he said, don't do it. Like, there's nothing you can gain by going out there and playing.

So what did you, did you steal? Were you going to be like, man, fuck that. I'm going to play. Like, was that it across your mind or were like, okay, I'd probably shouldn't you chill and sit down? No, I had trusted Herb enough. We had been through enough stuff where I thought that was the right call. And, you know, that was a really interesting year for the Warriors. It was Steph's first year.

You could look that up. Like it was, it was Reggie Williams. It was Steph. It was a lot of, you know, it was Monti. It was Anthony Morrow, Anthony Randolph, like good dudes, but it was all over the place. Like Brandon, what's Brandon's name? He plays for Brandon Wright. Brandon Wright.

Yeah, it was a lot of dudes, good dudes. It was so all over the place that it just wasn't worth it. So we decided to sit. But it's a very hard thing to navigate through that injury thing and whether it's worth it to play or not. And so that was, if I'm not mistaken, that was 2009, 08, 2009 or 0910 was that year that you went to those? What was that? Maybe 0910 maybe. Got it.

Okay. Never mind. Because I thought if it was 08-09, I thought it was that was the time when Stephen Jackson had got his deal and then had like, got asked for a trade right after. Jack, Jack got traded. Like, Jack and I were in the trade for each other. Oh, okay, got you. Yeah.

But that's funny how that, because it's, I remember, like, that's also gangster. He went and got his deal and was like, two seconds later, I got to trade it. Bye. Like, send me out. Which is wild. Speaking of trades, though, you know, we talked about John Wall. Also, Christian Wood is ball and two for the Rockets. The Rockets do have some pieces right now.

but we all know about James Harden trade requests. How much can a players play trade someone, like sway someone's trade requests? How do you think that works? If the team is just doing well and they're great, they're better than you would expect it, does that sway a player from saying, ah, I think I might want to stay?

Could, could certainly sway a player. You know, I think it depends on what the motivating factors for wanting to be traded were, like what the root of the initial ask for the trade was. But I think playing well and seeing that the pieces you have there, because, you know, I think James has stemmed from a place of like, look, we haven't got this thing together. Like, I want to go somewhere and try to win.

So if you're going to run off a bunch of wins and the team's got some good chemistry and the pieces are maybe better than you thought they were before they got on the court, yeah, I think it could definitely weigh into whether or not you want to get traded at the end of the day. So the biggest thing that I remember from, you know, that a player just saying, just pulling a trade request back because the team got better was Kobe in 07. And he was in your division when he requested that trade, right? What is it like from the other side's point of view where you're like there's a guy in your division that's a bad boy? Should his ass out. Get his ass out.

So tell me, yes, yes. Get him out. First viral moment ever. What was your What is your reaction to when a guy is like In your division is like I want to be traded and are you like Bye

That's good for the sons Or are you like Oh I want to see a play I want to guard him four times a year Dog I have never been that dude Like I've never been the dude Who's who's like

Hey man If they're not at full strength I don't want to play him I'm like yo If I don't care I'd rather than be missing three people and it be an easier win. I'm just telling you, the end game is the win, Logan, like, I'm not going to sit here

and lie to you on the pod. Like, we call ourselves the real ones, right? Like, I don't give a damn who's on the Lakers. If it's an easier path for me beating the Lakers, I'm in. So, like, I'm watching someone leave the division because he's unhappy somewhere else was never a problem for me. Like, it was not going to be an issue. Well, so tell me, give me the, take the picture, because you, remember that you guys,

eliminated him that year, right? You guys eliminated the Lakers that year. Kobe was like, something needs to be done and needs to be doing fast. You guys are still playing. A month later, he's like, I'm getting a trade. Did you guys internally was like, what Kobe doing? Like, what was the reaction from Phoenix? No, I don't really remember ever really having a discussion about that with anybody on the team. You know, but we knew that team, Logan, we played them. and there just were some flaws on the team, right? Like Kobe was phenomenal. He was doing everything he could

and almost like him and a couple other guys willing them to wins. But even Kobe and all of his greatness, you needed a certain amount of support to be able to ultimately win championships. So we knew where he was coming from. It just, I guess my point would be, if you could get somebody like that out of a division

where you don't have to knock heads with him all the time. I don't think any of us were going to lose. any sleep over him going to like Detroit or anywhere else for that matter. But, but, no, I don't remember having any conversations when they teammates about it. And then they come back and I think this is a similar situation.

You know, this is what writers do. We brought it all the way back, right? This, this reminds me of Steph, right, in the sense that Kobe didn't have, yeah, Lamar Odom, and that's about it on that team, right? How do you gauge a superstar

through your lens? right? When you see a guy, are you saying, oh, it's admirable that Steph got this team to 45 wins or Kobe got this team to 45 wins? Or are you saying, well, he needs to do more because such and such would have gotten to 50. Like, how do you look at that? No, I think people who know what they're looking at and players know what they're looking at. I'm not saying that other people don't, but some people don't. People who know what they're looking at are appreciative of what you could do with what you had. So Kobe getting, getting, them with L.O. to that many wins, there's a respect level there for that. I mean, we played against him, so we know how much is going into that. You know how hard he's working on every possession to get every ounce that he could get out of that. And that's kind of the way players are going to feel about Steph, regardless of what their record winds up being. Like, you know, you're in a situation where, again, every star, even MJ, you know, even LeBron. You need a certain amount of help to get it done, you know? Like, I think I remember when, when Perk, front of the show, was on the

pod and you guys had a moment and you guys were saying role players, y'all, rah, rah, rah, was a real role player, rah, rah, ra moment. And you put out a bar, I forgot the bar. Don't hate. Hey, man, I ain't hating, dog. Y'all, y'all did well for yourselves. Good job. You guys played, you guys lived out all my dreams. It's all good. But one thing you said, you were like, this doesn't get, it was a way better bar than what I'm saying. It was like, It doesn't get built without everyone else doing it, right? Right. And do we just need to realize as a, you know, as viewers of this sport that like it's not,

these star players are great, but at the end of the day, these star players need help. Do we need to like internalize that more? Do we need to like need to see that more than we do right now? I think, I think it's always hard for fans, especially in the league that is such a star-driven league to really fully appreciate what the role guys around that star does. Like that's the league, the NBA is set up to be a star league, you know, a lot more than other leagues. And so you're always going to feel like either that star did it himself or he couldn't do it.

And that's an indictment on him. And that's not really fair to the star necessarily. It's just the way it's set up. But yeah, everyone should know, stars are great. And yes, they're going to ultimately, you know, be celebrated when you win and take the blame when you lose. But a lot of that winning and losing at the end of the day depends on what they have around them and the support system that they have. And it doesn't mean they have to have like Batman's, I mean, Robbins to their Batman or whatever. They might just have a bunch of really good solid role dudes, you know, because the star is great enough to overcome with that set of people.

But there's got to be enough for them to get over the hump with. Do you ever ask like Nash when you were on the team about, like, yo, what is this like, man? Like you have this organization on your back. Like, how does that feel? How, do you ever ask like how that pressure is? How is, how can you like even replicate that type of pressure on somebody? I don't know. I, you know, I spent a lot of time with Steve.

and I would, you know, we'd go out to dinner and, and, you know, we'd be in the cold tub or or, you know, just getting on the plane and talking. And I could see the exhaustion in him, just, you know, physical, but mental and emotional as well, you know, like it's told. And I never really had to do that. Like, the teams I played on, it was never my job until I got to Charlotte. And I talked about that earlier, right? Like Charlotte, we had, you know, you had Raymond Felton, you had Gerald Henderson you know Boris Diao was there myself

and there were some other players but on any given night it could be any one of us that they was kind of carrying the mill I think Gerald was the dude more often than not and Raymond but they weren't stars so like that might fall to me

where Larry Brown is like all right Raj is hot we're just going to run all offense for Rajah tonight I found a really quick new respect for the pressure that a star is on. Like, if you don't deliver, that shit is on you. You know what I mean? And you can't turn around and be like, yeah, man, I didn't play that.

What is it like when you're in that mode where we're expecting you to pick up offense? When you're put into that role, how is that different from when you're a role player and you just get hot? No, it's completely, it's a, it's a, my safe place was being a, a role player. And I could be a really good role player. I could get really hot and have a bunch of buckets, right? And I'd even take the mantle from time to time, like, you know, in the Clipper series, when I kept us in a game with 33. But the point was, like, I was going to go right back to being a role guy.

You know what I mean? Being cast in that, like, leading man role is another level of pressure, Logan. It is... Because everybody's looking at you. Like, the defense is actually on you and looking to see what you're going to do at every moment, and you still got to deliver, right? Yeah, and not... Yes.

And that's a great point because it's not just like, damn, if I don't knock these shots down, like we're going to lose. It's like, I've got to knock these shots down, and everyone knows the ball's coming to me, and they're doing everything they can to stop me now from getting the ball. And that's a whole other animal, because I've always existed in this space that's created by, like,

Nash and Alan Iverson and Michael Finley and Dirk Nowitoultzky, and like, I get the ball. I'm wide open. Now I'm coming off of, like, you know, triple screens. Like, like, like, you know, I don't know. Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton and both the big and my defender on me, it makes it exponentially harder to score. So the level of pressure and attention that you get when you're cast in that leading role is completely different.

I gained a real respect for that real quick. What was the game where you were like, well, I think I'm a role player. What was the game that you remember? I always knew I was a role player. I always knew that. I just at that particular time in Charlotte, you didn't have a bona fide star. So on any given night, you might have to hop out of your role and try to be something else. So I never got that twisted.

Like when I got to the NBA, I knew pretty quickly. Like, I wasn't a star in this league. I thought I could be a really good player in it, but I wasn't going to be a star. So I was never under any, you know, disillusioned that I was going to be a star. I understood who I was. Is that, how was that for the person where, because I can imagine you, every year you see somebody that's the man in high school and then that's the man in college, right? And then they have that humbling. I don't know if you've had that.

Maybe you already knew. Maybe you had enough self-awareness to know. But there's always that moment of getting humbled to like, well, you're not that guy in the league. What is that like if you've ever went through that? Yeah. So I was found this interesting. And you brought up a good name, like Christian Wood, right? You talked about him who's having like just a breakout phenomenal year.

And we shared a tweet about one of his teammates saying that he used to tell him every day in Philly like, yo, I'm better than him. What's wrong with coach? Why won't he play me? Like, that's an awesome story. It's an awesome story of self-belief and perseverance and undrafted and getting over the hump and really turning into what you thought you could be. But for every one of those, like I came up with a bunch of guys who I used the term, they're just too good to be a role player, right? And it's a weird thing in the NBA because all of us were like I average 29 a game in high school. Like, you know what I mean? mean, we were all all conference and rookie of the years and whatever college we came out of,

all of us. And you get to the NBA and you have to quickly realize that there's already someone that's going to do that on this team. Like Alan Iverson's already here, right? Like, you know, Steve Nash is already here. Paul Pierce is already here. You know, whoever else you have is already there. And so can you take a back seat and kind of, you know who falls into this mode a lot? Dionne Waiters. Deon Waiters falls into this role. Like super. talented. Like, you give Deon Waiters the ball, Logan, and he, he does shit that a lot of people can't do with the ball. The problem is, like, he doesn't do it well enough to be the number one on an NBA team. So can you say to yourself that, hey, man, that's not going to be my role.

And I'm going to submit. How was it with Deion? How was it Deion? Because I'd imagine that it's both admirable and, like, yo, chill in the same time, right? Because you're like, because I know Dion legitimately feels like, yo, I'm better than all these dudes. I'm better than all of them. He does. He might think, like, yo, I'm better than LeBron at a point in time. He probably thought that, right? Listen, bro.

Is that admirable? And then also just like, ah, it is super admirable. My job in Cleveland, all right? I don't know. Like, I would just tell stories tonight. My job in Cleveland was to deal a lot with the players, right? I was a player, have a finger on the pulse of what's going on. And so we were trying to really protect the asset that was Dion, right?

Because we thought in a six-man role with LeBron, Kevin Love and Kyrie, Dion would be phenomenal. Like, now the problem was Dion and Kyrie had been fighting for like whose team that was because it was a bad team before LeBron and Kevin Love got there. And so Dion was like, though, this is my shit. I'm good enough. Like, I'm great with the ball. This is my shit. So I would talk to Dion about, look, Dion. And like, we would have these conversations.

Doug, all right, Kevin Love, Kyrie, and LeBron. They're not enough shots for you on that unit. So, like, I know you want to start, but hear me out. Like, if you would just take Jamal Crawford as an example or Manu Genoobli, an example, of guys who maybe mean more to their team than whoever's starting at the two or the three, because they come off the bench and give you 20 Lou Williams. Like if you would just buy into that role,

I think it's a win-win, right? Because you get to do what you want to do, which is get all of these buckets and have the ball in your hand. The team gets what they need, which is somebody with a little less ball dominance with the first unit and a real supplementation of points off the bench. And we're going to win a championship, and you're going to make a lot of money, Dion.

Like, they look, and I show him what people were making out there. Like, this is, look at what you're going to make. Dion just couldn't do it. He just wasn't like he just couldn't do it. What is it about starting for players that is just so important to certain players? Is it the status? Of course.

I mean, it's the ego. It's the status. And I'm not saying anyone's wrong for it. It takes a big man to say, hey man, I know that this is in the best interest of this team, like in the best interest of this team. Manu Genoobli, it takes a big dude. he, Mano Genobley would have started and had the ball in his hands and been the best player on, I don't know, 25 NBA teams probably.

Mano Junobley came off the bench for a career, like to win championships in San Antonio. Like that takes some, that takes a big man to do that. You know what I mean? And so not everybody's built like that. And it's not an indictment. Most of us as competitors want to start. Yeah, yeah. I've always fascinated about it.

And fascinated about those players. I think like J.R. Smith's another guy that is this. like super all-world talent, but just in his role, just probably should just be a role player, right? But just like, he's an overqualified role player. He's an overqualified role player. But JR bought in. Like JR, when we got JR from New York,

J.R. bought in to like, every guy thinks they're the guy until you play with the guy. And then most guys say, okay, LeBron's the guy. I'm going to play my role. Dion was the first guy I had ever met that was like, nah, nah, uh-uh. I don't give a damn who you got here.

I'm nice. I ain't a lot. I ain't a lot. I kind of respect it. Me too. It's kind of hard. Look, he's going, hey, that brother said, like, I am, and he is in Dion's defense.

You give Dion a ball and line somebody up in front of him. Dion's going to get a bucket. Fam, he beat the warriors by himself one time. go look it up with Kevin Durant with Steph Curry with Clay all of them on the floor he went and beat them by himself and did the polls afterwards in Miami like Dion's a bad boy

Deion gets buckets that's no question about him the question is can you do it consistently enough to like to be the man on a team and that's what it all boils down to right? And if you can then you got to be okay with somebody else being the man and then you being the next man Yeah, all right.

Well, the man right now is Steph Curry. He's up to 56 with two minutes left right now. He's bawling. I don't know about you, Roger. I'm about to go watch Steph play. Put some respect with Steph's name. We're going to holl at you guys on Thursday, the second show. We might have something in the works for it.

We might have something in the works for you. Just this a little. And we'll see you then. Make sure you tap into all the podcasts on the Ringer, the mismatch group chat. the answer, our newest show with Chris Ryan, and also go listen to our other ones, the Ringer NFL, the Ringer NFL show, excuse me,

and the Ringer music show and R2C2 with Vallejo-Legener-C-C-C-Bathia. So we got a full slate for you. We will see you guys Thursday. We might have something special for you guys. I don't know, wink, wink, I don't know. Tap in.