The Ringer NBA Show - Is This Anything? The Pacers and Kings Are Back, Miami’s Heating Up Without Jimmy, and More.

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos kick off the week by taking a closer look at a handful of teams to answer an all-important question: “Is this anything?” They start by talking about the recently resurgent Indiana Pacers and Tyrese Haliburton’s hamstring injury (7:31) before getting into the Miami Heat’s three-game win streak and Tyler Herro’s potential All-Star resume (22:03). Then, they discuss Paul George’s boredom playing center (34:45), the Kings’ turnaround under Doug Christie (44:09), and LaMelo Ball’s popularity in the league (50:55). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. It's the Maskman David Shoemaker. It's a new era in professional wrestling, and that means a new era here at the Ringer Wrestling show. Kaz here, every Monday and Thursday hang out with me and my guys' shoes on the Masked Show. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal, and Brian on Tuesdays for Ringer Wrestling worldwide, where we hit on the most interesting headlines and even react to some of Maskedmans and even your hottest takes. Don't tap out. Tap in to the Ringer Wrestling show feed now on Spotify. or wherever you get your podcasts. Worldwide. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was.

Gentlemen, group chat is a community. You know, we speak to the listeners, and I am proud to say they are speaking back to us. Oh, are they? Yes. So I was on a date. I think this was Thursday night. As you're known to do. As I'm known to do.

One or two, every now and then. Sure. You partake. I was at the Bellwether Bar in lovely, I would say, Mount Tabor area of Portland. Shouts to the Bellwether Bar hadn't been there before. Lovely evening. I was talking to my day. She was actually mentioning that she had watched the podcast on our YouTube channel.

Let me stop you there. Red flag or green flag that she has, she's already watched the pod. I think it was a yellow flag. I think it was a, what do you do? I'm curious. It's such a weird job that we do. Any time it comes up, people are always like, what's going on here. I hate it.

I hate it. I really do. I wish I could just watch a super cut of Woz trying to explain our job and specifically his job to literally anybody. Just a mashup of eight different times he said to explain it. A lot of times I just go, I work in sports media. Yeah. And pray that the person doesn't be like,

No, but what do you do in sports media? Well, I used to say journalist, but now that could be coded in the wrong way because people are like, oh, are you into Breitbart or something? It's like, no, but then you say you're like, oh, I'm a podcaster. And you're a Joe Rogan disciple? It's like, it's very complicated. You're telling guys to be a man and clean their room. It gets very complicated very quickly. But no, this was more sparted out of curiosity.

She did say like, oh, it seemed fun. That Robfell seems very dialed in. I was like, yeah, no, that's true. Okay, I'll take it. That's great. And as we were discussing this, one of the servers came to drop off one of the plates, and he gives a Love the Pod, right in front of the lady. And I was like, oh, thank you.

That's great. Love to hear that, by the way. I can't tell you how great it is to hear from people who like the pod and listen regularly. and then I just look over to her and she's just like flummoxed like what the fuck just happened here? Yeah, no, this is real lady

we really in these streets we really got fans on you. Well here's the question. Did the people know? What are the odds that guy just heard you talking about a podcast on the date and was like you know what,

I'm going to do this random guy a solid? Unlikely at best. Okay. Because we were right in front of a speaker the table that we were at And so it was already hard to hear each other. And so I doubt that anything was carrying. I think this was a clock.

A full clock. He's a full clock. I also don't think he was one of the regular servers. Because in Portland, you order at the bar a lot of times because a lot of places are just bar restaurants or restaurant bars. There's never one without the other. And so you ordered. And so various people would come and drop off the plates.

And this guy hadn't, I hadn't seen him before. And then he showed up. So it might have been like a... He said, I got this. Yeah. Justin Barry is in my bar. If you're right, if you're out there, I would love to say thank you to our friend. And if anything, to know your name so I can name our child after you get forward.

I think you owe this guy at minimum a drink, maybe at least a gift basket, some cheeses and crackers and maybe a bottle of wine. I don't want to put a price on you, Justin, but I feel like you owe him something. Yeah, we'll figure something out. Maybe some like group chat merch if we ever get it. or maybe just a pat on the back via like an Instagram DM. That could be fine too. Okay. And just really quickly, I had my own experience meeting at group chat viewer this weekend,

not as dope as Varyers. I wasn't impressive a woman with this, but somebody came up to me at a, I was watching Lamar Jackson at like, the MGM Grand has like a, in Vegas, I was in Vegas for a couple of days this weekend, has like a cowboy-themed bar in the district area of the MGM Grand, and I was sitting there watching Lamar kick-ass, and somebody recognized me. He said, what's up?

I said they were a fan of the show. He was with his buddy. They were going to watch that crazy immersive, like, show at the sphere. I don't know if you guys have seen that on Instagram. It's like insane. I forget what it's called. No, it's not grateful for that. That is crazy immersive.

It depends on what you take. It's like this other group, but like they have like this crazy futuristic shit. It's like a whole movie in the back while they're playing their music. A lot of people are going to check that out. But yeah, he noted that it's a Denver Nuggets fan. And he noted that I am one of the biggest water carriers for the Denver Nuggets. You're on the payroll. And so that's how I knew he was actually a fan of our show because he got that detail right.

So shouts to him. I forgot his name. Amen. But shouts to him and his buddy. We got those guys some shots. We enjoyed ourselves a little bit. It would not surprise me, Waz, if one day after Nicole Yokic has retired at the top of the world, at the top of the game, that you are prominently placed within his horse management company. It wouldn't shock me.

Be the least he could do. You'd be in his stable. Oh, God. That was terrible. I hope your date isn't watching this. That was not bad. That was not bad. That was solid.

Well, Rob, did you? you run into any fans? Did you get clocked at all? Uh, I did not. I am unhappy to report. I've been on deadline. Hence, hence my prodigiously growing deadline beard. I have interacted with no human beings other than you guys for like 72 hours. So we're out here. I'm, I'm ready for some human interaction. I'm ready to be locked in. I'm ready to impress your date with my diligence yet again, Justin. You still write? Occasionally. Or website? Someone asked to. someone has to. That's true. Well, we did give you something for this show today because as soon as I had mentioned and put the Pacers on the docket, Rob just sprung to life here. There's nothing more than he loves than a good old Pacers conversation. I do love a Pacer's conversation, but unfortunately, the worm has already turned on this one before we could even get to it. Yeah. We'll see. So we're doing another edition of this, is this anything a regular bit we do here on the podcast semi-frequently? It is a direct, rip-off from the Orlando Magic

broadcast, which is an homage to a David Letterman bit. So I think by the process of osmosis or some sort of chain effect, it is an homage. You know, if two people are doing the same bit, then we're just giving credence to the history behind us. So

that's how we get away with doing this. A couple, I think, five different items. We're going to go through them determine, is this anything? Are these recent trends, anything to be aware of? We've got to start with the Pacers, though, who as we record this podcast on Monday, have not lost a game in January after really taking into the Cavaliers on Sunday night, 6 and 0 in January, 13 in 4, I believe,

over their past 17 games, all of a sudden find themselves back in the playoff mix. Rob, what do you think about your Pacers? I was thinking a lot of things. I had lofty ambitions. I was ready to come out here and say some irresponsible things. things about their future over the back half of this season until we got the news that Tyrese Halliburton yet again has hurt his hamstring. And I know these things are dogged, but for this particular team and that particular player,

a hamstring injury is just an extremely tough development. And you hate to see it when they are playing so well, when there are so many things coalescing and working right for the Pacers right now, including not just winning all their games in 2025. This is the number two ranked defense in the year of our Lord 2025. they're pulling it together a little bit. You would have hoped and expected that the offense would get on track at some point. But the fact that they're actually stopping people, the fact that they put the clamps on the calves,

even though they couldn't really hit anything last night, is somewhat meaningful, I think, for their prospects this season. Yeah, I'm just surprised that, you know, how important the Pacers' role players end up being. Obviously, it's built around Halliburton and Seacom, but I think it's the other guys. the McConnell's, the freaking Nemhards, who get this thing going in such a way, they set the tone like a toughness tone, if you will, for the Pacers. And that's what I think is like kind of surprised me with the turnaround. It's how important these other guys have been in getting them to this point right now.

They can't survive without Andrew Nemhard anymore. That's crazy. plus 10.2 net rating in 691 minutes this season. Honestly, it seems low. Having watched them seems low. And so I'm wondering, like, we'll see with Halliburton. We don't know how long-term this injury is. Obviously, the hamstring is something that dealt with pretty much throughout all of last season.

Obviously, hampered them in the playoffs, too. So we'll see. I do wonder if, like, the schedule is soft enough, and their strength of schedule is pretty low on the list here, as I'm looking through the tankathon list. can they actually make do? Because not only has Nemhart been very good. Seacom is basically just as solid as he's ever been and is essential to just like the operations there.

But I also like the bench in that game against the Cavs. I thought Obie Toppin playing with a lot of Verve. Yeah. I also thought Charis Walker probably had the best game of his career. We'll see if it goes on. But they have the depth now, Rob, that I think I liked about them last year where it's like, you're not only getting hit with that first wave at Mach Speed.

It's that second team that comes in and just like doesn't lose anything. Well, I think they've found that mock speed over the course of the year, and that benefits guys like Obie Topin a ton, right? Getting into the proper pace is going to suit, especially your more athletic personnel. I think what's hard about the Nemhard element of this is he's such a good counterpoint for Tyrese Halliburton, where they get into different kinds of offense and different kinds of shots, and it's really great to have both of those things. if it's just Andrew Nemhard and T.J. McConnell and the rest of the guards and wings and Pascal Seacom trying to create for you, you're still missing some of that flow element that had really

come on strong lately. And I think that's where the Pacers thrive is in the balance of those things. Now, if what he's giving them defensively is enough to get through that soft part of the schedule, all the better for it, I think it's just, it's tough to project this team forward with a bunch of momentum anymore. And that's what feels like the wind has been taken out of this thing, even though Tyreys Halliburn may come back and look great and feel great. I think we'll just have to wait and see. But him missing time, I think, diffuses some of what had been going so well for them. And I think at bare minimum, dramatically changes the way they have to play.

Yeah, and also what's crazy about this is they've done so much of this without Neesmith, who last year was, again, a big part of some of the toughness and physicality that they could, you know, deploy at times. and he's been out with an ankle, and hopefully he comes back soon, and is able to help them build upon what they're doing on defense. So I think there's still some bright spots there. Because, again, Nemhard missed so much time early on, and they just didn't look like this team.

Again, I can't really understand it. But, yeah, you realize that him and Neesmith, which is a big part of the identity that they had started to build upon last year and into the playoffs. So, yeah, hopefully Halliburton's hamstrings aren't too horrible and that he's able to come back. And when he comes back, he's not, like, completely hampered. Because I think that's the scariest thing about the hamstring situation

is like even when you come back, there's this tendency to not want to go pedal to the metal and re-injure yourself. Oftentimes it's like an exertion injury. So you wonder if when he comes back he's even going to feel comfortable being, you know, closer to his real self. Especially because in addition to like the nagging injury stuff that has bothered him over the better part of the last year, so much of him getting on track was getting out of his own head.

And now he's got to go right back in it and deal with this injury stuff all over again. It's just, it's a tough development. What do we think about Halliburton now 39 games into his season post-breakthrough? Do you think like he acquitted himself after the rough start where you were like he's back on track? or does this hamstring now basically disrupt any sort of good momentum that he'd built? Because if this is going to be a frequent thing, how does he ever get back to the heights of like MVP ballot sort of Halliburne? Yeah.

I mean, that was always going to be a pretty ambitious kind of trajectory for him to get on MVP ballots. He did have that potential. He still does have that potential. I think what's worrisome right now is all of the injuries that he's had are kind of on the same kinetic chain, where it's a lot of like hamstring into lower back stuff. that always worries me when everything is kind of tugging at each other and you see a lot of problematic injuries building up over time as players are learning to compensate and trying to play through things. And he certainly tried to play through a lot last season. Overall, I did think he acclimated himself pretty well.

After an awful start, I thought he just had to dramatically reset the way he was thinking about offense and ultimately like the opportunities he was actually engaging in to try to score. That happens to point guard sometimes. they just get like rocked off their axis and the pass shoot dynamic gets a little shaken up. I thought he was, again, very much in his own head. It was great to see him out of it. I don't know who the Pacers are without him if he's out for any significant period of time. And I say that even while giving Andrew Numhart as flowers and while appreciating Pascal Seacom, I mean, while liking a lot of the depth that they have there, I just think that the contrast

and the style and so much of the tone that the Pacers try to set comes from him. Yeah, he's not, he's not. playing as well as he did the first two months of last year where people like me were really excited about what he was doing and did legitimately think he was playing like an MVP candidate. But, you know, the second half of last year, the start of this season, like, you know, a lot of people reaching out to me like, oh, your boy, it's trash, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that was Justin reaching out to you and I and everybody else. Every single time, different names, different numbers.

Just me. Yes, like Rob said, he's, he started. it was just so bad to start the year. And the team was just, seemed so disappointing and underachieving. After, you know, people didn't think that, like, they'd be as good as the Celtics or, or, um, the Knicks and, or maybe the Sixers or whatever,

before the season. But people thought they would be, like, the tier right underneath that and be a very strong playoff component, again. And it didn't look like it was going in that direction very early. So I'm glad that he was part of that turnaround. And I'm glad that he found, you know, some version of not just the way he plays, but like having Siakum is a brand new thing. Nemhar being this prominent is a brand new thing, right?

Even Mathrin missed a decent amount of time last season. So like him understanding how to calibrate what he does in a pretty new circumstance, I thought was impressive. And, you know, again, we just got to hope for the best in terms of him coming back and playing, you know, close to what he's capable of. Yeah, I think overall the Pacers have pretty much. much reset back to preseason expectations, probably. Like, this is pretty much what I expected for them going into this season, even if

Halliburton wasn't going to play at the all-MBA level that he played at times last season. I just think this is kind of what you expect from this team. It's a solid team obviously needs Halliburton to stir the drink. And Halliburton, I have to say, has been playing before this injury pretty well. I think for me, it also is a recalibration of Halliburton and like what he is. I think because when he popped, there was such an enthusiasm around. him. I think people were thinking top five point guard, top four point guard, one of the best players

in the league. And I see him now more is probably closer to a Trey Young type, where it's like he can be a dynamic force that can run your offense. But there are obviously complications there first and foremost. I think like he takes, you know, he gets a shot off in the same amount of time. It takes like a defensive tackle to run the four-yard dash. That's a problem. The three also comes and goes at times. And then the defensive concerns are obviously paramount. He's one of the worst defenders, I think, probably at his position, even though he does have length and that saves him sometimes. And so that's still a pretty good team.

You're going to net out as pretty good. And for a team like the Pacers that has so many complications to build the type of team that could be a top six team in the east, that's great. Now, I don't know. I think we can get into some of the other teams on our list here, but I think they fall squarely in the mix of maybe a top six team. I could see it, but probably playing. Wait, so is this anything?

I think it was something. Now it might not be as much. Unfortunately, hamstrings are also something. It's tough. Yes. Do you guys think it's anything? It certainly has been something. It has been.

They definitely closer to what the expectations were, you know, coming off of a conference finals. But, yeah, I think you got to set that. They were literally in conference finals. Come on, man. Yeah. Technically. Yeah, technically.

Well, what do we think? I have this down. Miles Turner is an expiring contract right now. Yeah. They are so depleted in the front court that they had to go out and get Thomas Bryant from the heat because James Wiseman went down. What do you do with Turner at this point? Because on the one hand, like he fits offensively. Like I think he's shooting around 39% from three.

But isn't the type of anchor you need defensively? And then like, do you just bring them back because you don't have anything else and like to find something else to require so much? Like, what are we do in the situation? Yeah, we're going to have to have a long conversation about Miles Turner at some point and how, like, a defensive specialist big somehow became an offensive specialist big? It's insane. It's really insane. Just a complete inversion of his entire early career?

He used to be a legitimate rim-protecting guy, and, you know, a guy that could move his feet a decent amount, right? Like, you know, we don't want to say he was like a Kevin Garnett or something crazy like that, but, you know, he wasn't some, like, plotting big stiff. Yeah. And now I don't really feel like that's the case. And it seems like teams, the best teams, you know, do a pretty good job of exploiting his weaknesses. But to answer your question, Justin, I think if you could bring him back at a reasonable number, you do that. And, you know, hopefully maybe through the draft a big, you know, and try to develop them somebody with maybe perhaps a little bit more athleticism and physicality.

I do think this latest string of games from the Pacers and their success of late, I would think, and this is just a straight-up guess, I would think it has probably pulled back the trade market on Miles Turner a little bit. You're starting to hear a little bit of chatter that if the Pacer's season went completely sideways, oh, could some contending teams get it on him? Could some hopeful contending teams get in on him? I don't really think that's going to be the case anymore. I mean, trade rumors starting back up with new?

I mean, did they ever go any years? been in more trade rumors and not been dealt than Miles Turner. Good question. It's crazy because he's going to be in like the Pacer's Ring of Honor because he's 15 years there. Yeah. But he's been in a trade rumor every single year. It's crazy.

That's a soldier right there. Like honestly. DeAndre Hunter, maybe. Hunter taken over for John Collins. Obviously Collins moved eventually. DeAndre Hunter. Ring of Honor Atlanta, Atlanta,

that's hilarious. We need a term. for these kinds of players who have really gone through the entire trade machine and gotten spat out back right where they started after, you know, like, eight or nine years, really extended careers with one team. Kuzma's up there,

but he changed teams, but he's definitely Rummer Mill All-Star right now. Cam Johnson, certainly probably the MVP of the rumor mill right now. I mean, that's right now, though. Again, Miles Turner's telling these guys, like, call me when you've been in the rumors for eight consecutive years.

He lives in the rumors. He's like Tom Hanks and Castaway just out there out of Desert Island of rumors. All right. You're killing me today. I know. It's really bad stuff. I got one compliment. I'm just wrong wild.

That said. You're high in your own supply. Yeah. We're talking middle of the east right now. A few of these teams that we're going to talk about are squarely back into the mix. And one of those is the Miami Heat who find themselves two spots below the Pacers as we record. They're three and two, I believe, on the road trip that they started post-Jimmy Butler getting suspended. They were just here in Portland the other night.

I will say the vibes are good. It seems like just like a weight has been lifted off some of these guys, including one Tyler Hero who's playing really good basketball, was before the whole Jimmy situation kind of came to a head here. He had really, I think he had 32 against the Blazers. He had one pass that someone asked Spoh about the other night where it was like a cross-court, one-handed pass and Spos, like, he reminds me of someone in a lot of instances. And I was like, oh, it must be veiled comment about Jimmy, right? Because they wouldn't take comments about Jimmy before the game.

And I was just like, oh, he just can't say his name talking about Jimmy. But then you actually look at what he said, which is the movement off the ball, skill level, passing, handling, scoring at three levels, ignitability, flare for the moment in opposing arenas. I think he's talking about Steph Curry. Wow. I think that's the comp he's making. I was ready for you to say Michael Jordan, but

Steph Curry still works. Slightly less than, but, yeah. In fairness, who does not look like Steph Curry against the Portland Trail Blazers this season? They're spunky. I think the Blazers are a good litmus test where it's like they're deep enough and they have enough talent where it's like you can't just coast most of the time.

And I think that's a good, like case for where that he are right now. The 15th on offense over the season. 10th on defense, the defense has looked legitimate. I do wonder if Jimmy not being in there, kind of being older and not being the same defender used to be helps. But I, it's always legitimate.

You know, they always do fine there. Yeah, I think there is something going there where it seems like the young guys are more a significant part of what they're doing than ever before. And it seems to have been paying off with Hero, first and foremost. But even like a Yovich playing pretty well. And so I'll be honest, I don't think this is much of anything because you look at the names on the roster and then there still is kind of a talent suck here. They do need one to two guys.

But if some of their younger players do play better, I think they're probably about what you would expect with Jimmy, which is like high play in, maybe top six if things go right. I'm not seeing it. Yeah. Really? I'm not. I'm struggling a little bit, too. I'm not seeing it. Bam is having such a bad year.

So weird. It's just like so confounding how bad he's been for his standards and what people were hoping for in terms of him taking a step on offense and like him clearly being the guy that the organization feels like is their most important player going forward considering his age and what he's already accomplished there. If Bam's not going to be like a clear cut bona fide All-Star and taking a step forward with his offensive game and there's aggression on that end. I don't know, man. Like, I like these, I like these no-name guys as much as the next guy.

I'm proud of Tyler Hero for having a career year. Wait, who are the no-name guys? I guess anybody that isn't banned or Tyler Hero? That's, no. The Haywood-Hissomith or Ray sure I will not allow. Hold, hold up. Jaime Hakez, I have respect for. He's a person he is. He's not a no-name, but I have respect for.

And I do have respect for Yovich. I really do think, like, he's a good, he's a legitimate, he's a legitimate player. But the rest of this, like, nah. I almost worry more about the named guys than the no-named guys. Like, will Terri Rozier ever be a good NBA player again? I honestly have no idea. He's been terrible. Not good.

And I think ultimately to your question, Justin, I'm coming from a similar place as Was where if this were driven in some ways by a BAM resurgence, I'd go. okay, now we've got something going. It's a lot of like papering over the starting lineup with like as much fake creation as you can throw out there and the heat get a lot of mileage out of that stuff.

Like maybe better than any organization in the league. They can milk that stuff for all it's worth. I just don't think they're meaningfully in the mix. I know they are technically tied for what, sixth place in the east right now. Good on them. Wonderful turnout concerning the circumstances.

I do think it's a thing that the vibes are markedly better when Jimmy Butler is not around. And I believe that probably everyone involved, Jimmy included, is happier when these two sides are not in the same place. But is it a thing in the way that this is going to actually change any outcome of the season for any team, including the heat? I just don't see a lot of traction here.

No, I think they're probably looking at best, probably sixth in the east is what we're saying here, which isn't meaningfully different from when they had Jimmy. I just think there is a little bit of viewing theory potential here, where it seems like everybody is galvanized at this point, including Spoe, who seems like excited to be coaching up young guys and giving them opportunities. And if it's hero playing like 30 points a night hero,

which is pretty regularly what he's giving them at this point, plus like the foundation of what they already had, plus some good vibes. Like I think Spow can coach them to the point where they're like, yeah, sixth. I don't think they'll get out of the first round, probably. They're not going to get out of the first round. I'm willing to go on that particular branch.

You don't think they're getting out of the first round probably. They're definitely not going to do that. Well, here's the competition. Because they don't got Jimmy Butler. I think they might actually be better. I think Jimmy's just such, like, I think he seeps into the pores of, like, everything that you do to, like, extricate that and, like, give guys opportunities to be their best selves. I think we'll pay dividends because they have enough young guys.

Like, look up and down the world. roster. There's a lot of young guys just like looking to prove themselves in ways that I think are meaningful. It's true. Hawkes. I mean, Bam has not played particularly well, but the fact that they piece together a very good defense, I actually think they're like fifth in defense since Jimmy went down. It's only been like a couple games, so it's a very small sample size. Like, I think it's meaningful. You only need Bam to be an anchor defensively, where is like huge in an athletic. Like, there's enough here where it's like, they're very much like on par with maybe the pacer's without Halliburton, the pistons, the way they're playing.

the Hawks. Like, that's a tier unto itself, the bucks, depending. You don't think so. A strong disagree. A lot of what has happened lately is they played the Blazers, they played the Jazz, they played the Warriors. Like, that's how you get wins. That's how you get wins in the NBA.

Again, under the circumstances, given what they have, they'll take any wins they can get. Especially like the warrior, a Warriors win for this heat team is nothing to scoff at, especially in the fashion that they did it. So here's the tier. Like, how would you rank these middling East teams? Because that's who we're talking about here.

Midly. The pistons, the heat, the pacers. I guess you could throw in the bucks. I think the bucks are probably, they play better than, yeah, right? They're probably more in the magic range. Yeah, yeah. I guess you could throw the hawks in here, too, although they play pretty poorly of late. Yeah.

And we're talking current day heat? Yeah, assuming that they don't get back, Jimmy. I guess you could factor in, like, maybe they'll get a rotation player out of a Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're probably. Probably better than the Pistons, but not meaningfully better than the Pistons. Better than the Pistons, probably not better than the Hawks, though.

I don't know. The Hawks have. I don't know. Hawks been pretty bad. It's been unpleasant. This is also, like, bad, realistically. And I just don't think this team that, yeah, has had a nice stretch since Jimmy got sent home or whatever, you know, in a playoff series where teams are like, dialed into what they're doing, which is like dialed into Tyler Hero.

I just feel like... Tyler Hero's been really good. I didn't say he hasn't. I just feel like a playoff team is going to make it so that that's not the best way to structure an offense. Like, let jump on Tyler Hero's back and get taken to the promised land. There's been worse in the NBA this year. Yeah. I think Tyler Hero is very much in the mix for an All-Star bid.

I think so. this point. Deserving. I don't think he'll get it because the guard depth is actually pretty deep in the East. And so it's funny. Kevin Pelham had an article on ESPN recently. These are the cards that made it for him in the East. Mitchell, Ball, Brunson, Young, Dame, Cade.

And then I think you would get to hear. Oh, Garland would probably be in the next year. That's a tough break for Darius Garland if he doesn't make it. Well, I think the entire rest of the core four in Cleveland made it. We can't do four. Like we're not doing Make it five Hawks.

Dean Wade or Max Drews or both. They can each play a half. I don't care. Just send the entire team because nobody in the NBA wants to go to the All-Star weekend anymore. Heroes right there. I think if he has like a good stretch here,

maybe coaches would want to like signify it. Doubtful. But he's like, he's like last cuts, I think in the East. Yeah, I think he deserves to be there. I've been super impressed with Tyler Hero. Everything I'm saying about the Heat

is not a commentary on Tyler Hero season, He's doing his thing. He's having a career year. Doing his thing, turning over a new leaf, like responding in all the ways that I think lots of people have been waiting for him to respond in terms of cleaning up his shot profile and the type of playmaking he's doing. Those are all huge developments for his career. And maybe could have been huge developments for the heat if their season had gone differently

or if they had traded Jimmy Butler in the offseason or whatever that would have been. But for where I think stand now, he is not going to save this team. And overall, they're going to be fine and competent because the heat are pretty much uniformly. fine and competent. I just don't think they're in the mix in like a meaningful way where they're really threatening for anything. They're in the mix because this section of the east right below them is quite bad. And if not for that, I don't think they would be here. And Tyler Hero just for, you know, a quick what if scenario, he's definitely playing better than everybody in Portland's guard rotation. And if you guys will remember during that little trade situation, people were

laughing at the idea that Tyler Hero was a guy worth acquiring. So there's that. that too. Simon's kind of back, though? Simons is back. I also don't think, I mean, they don't, their guards overlap right now. Like, Sharp and Simons can't play together. You couldn't put another guard into a team with, like, four guards in order to rear. That made no sense.

And I actually think the picks that Portland got were by far the best asset. Like, Hakez and Yovich, they're fine, ultimately. I don't think they're going to be meaningful starting players in the NBA. So I greatly disagree with that. I don't think that was the better package. Pistons or heat, I think is what this comes down to. What a time to be alive. What's the answer?

I think it depends very much on the trade. I'm going to go heat. And that's just the Spow Edge. I think there'll be a better coached team. But like, I mean, not point. Excuse me. The pistons probably have more talent. um than the jimmiless heat uh which is just crazy to say uh man that that that that succeed is

going to be something to monitor man just the absolute prize of the eastern conference i can't wait to see how the playoff like bracket actually shakes out and what these matchups actually end up looking like because i can't imagine a world in which any of these top three teams are going to be in any kind of danger whatsoever. I guess we'll see how four or five breaks and maybe how the buck season turns out. But yeah, it's not great down there. I think the top four is very much going to keep going. Because the magic get Apollo back, Franz is going to come back in the next couple weeks here.

So the four, I'd be stunned if that isn't the final four in the east. I would put the heat over the pistons. I think you guys aren't giving enough credit to the institution and just like what Spow can do with the freedom to do so. I believe in that more than some of these other teams. frankly, maybe the Pacers. It really depends on whether or not they're going to get Halliburn back. But the real, like, curveball here is the Philadelphia 76ers who are looming, very much in the distance, but still looming on the edge of the top 10 in the Eastern Conference.

They've lost their past two games, including to the Pelicans, without Zion Williamson, after which Paul George says he's bored playing back up center. And so, Waz, I turn to you. Is this player empowerment at its best? We need players' voices more than ever. And when you get those voices, you hear Paul George say things like this. I mean, again, like I'm a fan of players being candid, being truth, being honest with the public about what they see, what they think, how they feel, whatever, especially as it pertains to the game. But, you know, again, this is Paul George we're talking about.

He came to the team to be a sort of, you know, like fill in the blanks, filling the holes, work around what Maxie and Embed are doing. Like, nobody thought he was going to come and save this franchise or do, like, some actual heavy lifting, or do anything hard. Nobody thought that was the plan, even though they paid him $50 million in the offseason to come in here. The idea was that he was going to literally be this kind of jack of all trade, secondary ball handler, sometimes doing one-on-one stuff. But like the thing was about Maxian and B.

But yeah, it turns out doing some of the lunch pail dirty work stuff, meaning sacrificing your body as an undersized five because your team like needs you to. It's not as if they have all of these great backup big options. But like him, you know, he's a freaking wing. He's been a wing. his whole life. He's not going to like playing center. Nobody should be surprised by that. Hell, Anthony Davis,

you know, centers don't like playing center. There's a long history of forwards not wanting to play to play big. Yeah. But that's a systemic problem. That's because we are undervaluing our bigs. We are not giving them their proper due. We're not giving them

their post touches. We're not treating them as vaunted members of society. And Paul George is getting a taste of how the other half lives. You know, he's seen what it's like to be Andre Drummond and it's not great. Right. He's not working just that middle class lifestyle. No. You are in the post just pounding away. Yeah, listen, it sounds like it sucks. Being a big man. It's not good. You're getting hammered all the time. And if you're George, who isn't like frail, but definitely like life, even for like a superstar guard, like that probably

fucking sucks to have to play center. And so I get it. The problem is he just, he says things out loud that you shouldn't really say. And it just compounds this overall effect that's happening in Philly where it's like, I find them very difficult to watch. There's such a sadness behind the eyes of literally everything that's going on there that like I kind of wince when I turn on the broadcast sometimes and like kind of kind of like just swallow it and just watch it because it's just nobody wants to be there right now. It's a lot of just maxi do whatever he wants while Gersa and Yabaseli is just like pounding people in the post there. And so in fact, I wrote this out here, the anti-league pass rankings, pretty much the five worst watches in the league.

Yep. Who you got? I got the jazz number one. Unwatchable. And honestly, recently they're playing Isaiah Collier. There's at least something there, but most of the time it's like guys, you don't know who they are, guys filling in for other guys who are anonymous. That's a tough watch. It's a really tough hang.

I mean, they literally rested Walker Kessler the other night. So it's... Micah Potter got to start. Shout out. They're digging deep. The Nets, number two, now without most of their good guys. But even they have like a Ben Simmons and you know how much... I love just watching those 20 minutes.

The Raptors. Raptors are awful. And then I have the Sixers. Number four. I actually have the Sixers ahead of, or I guess depending how you look at it, below... So you've rather watch the Wizards than the Sixers. Yeah. The Wizards have young guys. I want to check it on SARS.

I want to see a cool little ball he's doing. There's enough guys there that you want to at least pulse check. The Sixers don't have a pulse. They're just dead on arrival. They really don't. That's where I stop short of blaming Paul George too much. Because as you're saying, everyone is disenchanted there right now. I'd imagine, why wouldn't you be upset with the way that the season is going?

It's been terribly terrible. This was just on nobody's bingo card. This team would be this bad. at this point in the season, like, oh, maybe they have a playoff meltdown because they're counting on Embed and Paul George. And maybe they, you know, or end up overachieving and somehow scrap their way to the finals. Being the 10th seed and everybody by January feeling hopeless that this entire season could be turned around, man, who could have predicted? I think it's so many smaller things too. Like obviously,

Embed is the biggest story with the Sixers at all times and him not being consistently healthy as a huge bummer. But also, like, the Jared McCain news was such a huge deflating point. It was like the one thing that was going well and he's out for the year. Every other role player that they've brought in has been at best up and down.

And it's such a weird mix of players. You're right, it's not fun to watch. I do think maybe you're underselling how bad the Raptors are to watch right now. they are just a absolute mess, a huge fire on a near daily basis. I do not enjoy watching Toronto play. But otherwise,

I think your anti-league pass rankings are more or less right on point. Power rank these scrubs who got minutes against the magic on Sunday night. Justin Edwards, a dem Bona. Yeah. I think it's Bona.

Sure. Jeff Doughton Jr. Yeah. And now Ricky Council. is a known factor. Just those three. Honestly, a dumbona had some moments.

I mean, like, one. He blocked one shot in that game that I saw, and I was like, all right, I guess you're a rim protector. The broadcast made a huge deal of it. It happened technically during an NBA game. It did. So that goes on his basketball card forever.

No one can take that away from him. 15 minutes, zero shot attempts, zero rebounds, zero assists. One steal, one block, plus four. good for him. I actually thought this was a pretty solid Paul George game, and especially like he was delivering some important late plays in a game that was really close. It's just kind of emblematic of how bad things have gone,

that they're like fighting for their life against a magic team that's down eight players and desperately relying on Paul George, as was said, was not brought in there to do heavy lifting to do exactly that on now a nightly basis in the regular season. It's awful. The Sixers team is not good. they're not fun to watch. I hope we don't talk about them very much until they correct at least one of those things,

but I'm not hopeful. They were in that game, to their credit, and then Paul George followed out because he's playing center in 2024. It's just wild to me. That's what wings do in 2024, or 2025 anyway, you know? This is the modern NBA.

Paul George is a center now. Is this anything that they suck and are irredeemable at this point? The enwee is anything. thing for sure yeah i think i think the malaise the the just general funk that is emanating from this franchise is a real thing i don't think this is like oh there's you know two and a half three months until the playoffs and you know they're going to turn this around and but like i don't think so i think this is how the season's going to go and there's no telling if mbid isn't just on his like

minutes restriction, not back-to-back thing, if he doesn't sustain another serious major injury. Same with Paul George. Like, this is not anything close to what was expected after the off-season that they had and all the back-slapping, you know, that we did with Darrell Mori and the brain trust over there. I think that hope is dead for this year. It's over. There was a part of me that was tempted to point out the Sixers, as you did, Justin, in conjunction with the heat to say, oh, couldn't the Sixers catch them? And then I remember literally the entire history of these two franchises, and that would never ever happen in a million lifetimes based on what these two teams do. Like how their seasons go, that never happens.

As if it couldn't get any worse, as you guys were talking and I wasn't listening. I played the Take-A-Thong-Zim lottery just once here. The Sixers ended up with the 10th pick and then had to give it immediately to the Oklahoma City Thunder. Oh. Well, congratulations to Sam Presti and the Thunder. One more little chip in the coffer. No, I did it again. Eighth pick. Going to the Thunder. That sucks. All right. Something a little bit more uplifting here. The Kings back from the dead, baby. Seven in one under Doug Christie, including seven wins in a row.

Rob, are you feeling King sanity right now? Is it literally anyone calling it that? just me. Okay. I mean, I am feeling it for what it's worth. I do think in the spectrum of things, this is a relative thing, mostly because I just think they were better than their record before. And some of that was going to course correct with time.

Usually if it's like a team is underperforming, it's either bad luck or vibes. And maybe in this case, it was a little bit of both. Maybe the energy in the building was all wrong. I hesitate to put too much of this at Mike Brown's feet or Doug Christie's feet. And I think it's mostly just a team kind of getting its shit together a little bit. with the exception, I would say not playing Keon Ellis is not necessarily a fireable offense, but he's a guy that the Kings actually did very much need and is playing quite well, and it does help that he's finally playing.

So that's one material change in terms of what's going on in Sacramento right now. Yeah, they were losing a bunch of close games, which we know, like historically, like that's just a fluky stat, clutch wins or losses are not very sticky. It's not generally indicative. I heard it was genetic, though. Is clutch performance not genetic? Some people do have clutch genes, but you can't trends, like, pose that onto your teammates. You might individually have the clutch gene, but your teammates might not possess it, so it doesn't, it's not transferable.

Okay. In that way, and that's, like, scientific. There's, like, studies done. You guys are giving me shit about the bad jokes. Going five minutes on the bad clutch joke here? What the what's going on here? The deeper it goes, the better it gets. Boss is you just talking about a fucking scientific study on the clutch gene?

What's wrong with you? Let's just break out the beakers. Onsen burners over here. There's always something to just like the juju being improved by a new situation. And like guys feeling like very temporarily just more optimistic. And like you feel like you turn the page on something. And there's sort of an unburdening going on there. But yeah, I do think this is basically like this team wasn't playing horrible before.

it's just that they thought they would be, you know, a little bit further up in the win column. And so it's understandable that they got rid of Mike Brown. Do I think the Kings are now one of the better teams in the West? No. I don't think anybody is saying that. But it's nice. Is this anything? It's not, is this conference finalist?

Yeah. I don't think so. You don't think it's anything? Do you guys think this team is materially better since they traded this? since they fired Mike Brown. I mean, they're playing materially better. I think like the Pacers, they've returned to what I expected going into the season, which is just a credible regular season team.

Yeah. I think part of that has just been the vibe change. Maybe that was Brown. There were reports that he'd lost the locker room. Something like that could flip because it's not like they don't have a solid top six or so players. I also think adding Keon Ellis, as Rob mentioned, instant win. I don't know why that guy wasn't getting regular minutes because he's baffling. exactly what they need.

I also think it helped that Devin Carter finally got healthy and is playing similar sort of minutes. He's basically what if Davian Mitchell was good. Like he's just a scrappy, defensive-minded guard who may have a shot probably better down the road as a three-point shooter also has a really cool ponytail. So like all those things combined, like I think have led to the point where they're like, you know, ninth in the West. They have a better point differential right now than all but five teams in the West.

I don't know if that will continue, but I can see them as like a high play in, seven, eight, nine, something like that. I just didn't see them as being that far apart from like the clippers. Again, like good, competent teams. Like they should have been in that mix all along and as you said, JV, they finally are.

So a lot of course correction going on right now. But apparently that's what 2025 is all about. You know, we're just getting off on the right foot. We're resetting everything. It's not going great literally anywhere right now, but I'm glad it's going great for Sacramento. Here's my concern. is like how much of the bad vibes were also brought upon by Daron Fox just like maybe sort of hedging toward the door as he gets toward a potential not taking the extension over the off season.

I do note that the DeRosen Fox Minutes are one of the two two-man combinations that's in the negative amongst their core players. They have won the past two games with the two of them. It just feels like they are a little duplicative when they play together because they're, They both want the ball in their hands. They're both scoring guards. And, like, De Rosen has such, like, a clear path of how he wants to do things. It just seems like there's a little bit more overlap than you'd like. And so if I have concern going forward, if Fox stays put, and I assume they'll stay put at this point because things are going well.

It's just, like, it's not as seamless as it needs to be. And that might ultimately, like, if we're talking about margins here of, like, could they be better than Warriors is, like, a couple little things going to make the difference. I could see that playing a factor. I think it's been nice for the. them to at least be a little more on the same page. I know, I think it's in particular, Fox has been in and out of the lineup a little bit lately. Yep. So it doesn't, it doesn't entirely bode well in terms of them building some kind of sustainable

chemistry. But for this team, it's like literally, can Dier and Fox and DeMar de Rosen have good games at the same time in a way that is conducive to overall productive team offense? That's been a battle. And so to even see that a couple of times, I think it's somewhat encouraging. Yeah, and it's funny because when Mike Brown got there and he, like, instituted this brand new continuity-based, read-and-react kind of offense,

and it was around their two best, most important players. Like, I think we, as a media, just like aesthetically thought it was really cool and looked great and enjoyed watching it. But I think ultimately, like internally, they realized there was a ceiling on that particular style of offense. And so, you know, bringing DeRosen in,

like, it's important to remember the context. right? When these things happen, like bringing him in, they felt like was bringing in a new dimension, like a guy who can just, straight up just beat defenses by himself one-on-one and get you nice looks, especially in the clutch, as he's done for most of his career. So, you know, I still believe in the logic of what they did. And yeah, and I think it's still early, super early in that partnership. So it's not like crazy that this thing isn't just humming along just perfectly yet. So I do think there should be a little bit more time And we'll see where it goes with that

Last one I have on the docket number five Lemella Ball is leading all East Guards An All Star fan voting He is currently based on the second returns Getting more votes than Steph Curry Was I asked what the fuck is going on with the youth Why is this the guy for the next generation I don't like he's just got a virality

to his online brand for whatever reason. And I don't know if it was like, you know, the 35-foot-3s that he was taking in Australia or the hair or whatever. I don't know. Like, for whatever reason, his game translates, especially particularly to a younger audience. And, yeah, I was talking to a couple guys in the sneaker business.

And he's definitely, since he's been, in the league and had his own sneaker. I'm pretty sure he's the highest selling signature shoe person in the NBA, which is insane. So, like, it's one of those things where it's like, all right, there's, like, some vague concept that somebody might be popular,

but then there's, like, people voting with their feet and people voting with their sneaker purchases. And so, like, this idea, did it, he's leading in votes. I'm not surprised by it because, like, I've been noticing just, like, these, just trend-wise, like, this guy has been one of the more popular players in the league since he got to the league. So, and he's finally playing, like, at least, you know, like an All-Star now. And so, like, I'm with that. He's an All-Star. And I don't think there's any dispute about that, really. So it's just a matter of, is he a starter? Should he be a leading

vote-getter? And honestly, Justin, I think part of the reason he has the appeal that he does is specifically because of reactions like yours, not because they're unfounded, but it's like there is a generational, oh, the olds are bothered by this guy's shot selection. We are going to claim him for ourselves, right? But not you. Not me. You're in touch with the youth. I'm channeling the youth, but of course I'm not anywhere resembling young.

I think Lamello's fame is fascinating. And like, again, the level of stardom we're talking about. and like why it clicks for some guys and why it doesn't. We've been talking a little bit off and on about like, why is Jalen Brunson not a bigger star? Given the market, given some of the appeals of his game, given some of the playoff moments in the series he's been in, like he has the resume that a guy like Lamello does not.

But Lamello has all of the flash, all of the creativity, all of the appeal. It's aesthetically so fun to watch, even if what he's doing drives you absolutely crazy, it's undeniable. Watching a guy take pull up one-legged three, is undeniable. And I think there is a quality to that

that lends itself to things like this. Plus, in the spirit of the All-Star game probably shouldn't be that serious. I just don't really have any problem with Lamello being one of the chief representatives of trying to make this, we'll see if it's actually competitive game, actually fun. That's the thing, too.

Like, when we referenced Steph Curry. Obviously, guys like us have a deep and earned reverence for Steph Curry. So it's like, Steph Curry, who was probably the last phenomenon, genuine phenomenon that the league has ever seen. Like the idea that that guy who to us is like this special person is like getting outdrawn in All-Star votes by Lamella.

Like this kid has never accomplished anything in the NBA. Well, some of that is gerrymandering too. We should say. If Lamella was in the West, he would not be outdrawing step. Like he's getting the votes he is because he's Lamello. Playing with him. Well, that would have really been something to behold. And I would love to live in that alternate reality.

But he's getting the number of votes he is in part because his competition is Jalen Brunson and Donovan Mitchell and Dame Lillard, who's again, like quite popular, but not Steph Curry popular. And so there's just, there's room for him to run away with the vote. Yeah, I don't bring this up because I care whether or not who starts and comes off the bench of the All Star game lineups. I think this is just more of a mark. That was your number one concern. I was thinking of leading with it, but you guys didn't want to. I think it's a weird almost. marker of a changing of a guard that I think we can all like feel is happening in the mix here. Like even Yokic being the far and away, uh, biggest vote getter in the Western conference is different than years past. It just seems like people are even taken to the idea that like he's clear cut the best player in the league right now in a way that they were resistant to even like a year or two ago. And so the mellow, I get it to a certain extent.

Also, like he has like the weird neon thing that the kids seem to love and like all of his stuff seems like vaguely Y2K-ish. in a way that I find garish and kind of offensive as someone probably like maybe was interested in those things a couple years ago like bringing that back. This is like the fifth pot in a row, Justin has brought this up by the way. Todd, no, he really hates this shit.

I don't know what the kids are doing, man. I don't know what they're doing. You're never going to. Like our time of knowing what the kids are doing is over. But it just reminds me of when we were younger, though, when our favorite players, at least mine, wasn't Michael Jordan. It was like Sean Kemp, who was like good

and not the best play in the league, because he did cool shit. And Lamello does do a ton of cool shit. Oh, yeah. I was watching against the Suns last night. It's just like, man, he could make some incredible things happen. He can make some of the stupidest things happen regularly. It's just like, it's a tough watch sometimes.

But I don't know. I guess this is where we are. Lamello Ball face of the league. I think you're right about that too. And like I think about some of my first times watching La Charles Spreewell play with like All-Star Games, where he's like the only guy trying to rip the freaking rim down. And it's like, again, like that's cool, like that's singular. And I think what you can say about Lamello, despite, again, a complete and utter lack of success on the basketball court in terms of real NBA actual achievement is that he is a singular entity in our league.

And I think the fans notice that and fans like when guys stick out and have a uniqueness to what they do. And so he, you know, he deserves props for that. Yeah, weirdly for a guy who grew up as a reality show subject, both literally and figuratively, is just, I think, one of the more authentic players in the league. Like, he cannot help but be weirdo Lamello Ball. And that's captivating to watch. Also, LeVar Ball was right. About everything.

That's another thing that I've gotten out of this. LeVar Ball had a point. Yeah, he sacrificed Lonzo's ankles. in order to get LaMelle to this point. But the Ball family is doing well. Vangelo Ball, I think, just got signed to a major record label I saw up from a tweet from Shams Sharania before we came on here. Like, the balls were thriving.

It was a bidding war. An actual bidding war for this kid. That's crazy. But I do think, like, to your earlier point, when we talk about face in the league, all this other stuff, there is kind of a know-it when you see it sort of factor. Like, we could force guys like Shea or even Yokic because they're the best players. in the league, but people take to certain players because they're celebrities. And more than anything, La Mello Ball is a celebrity. I don't want to get into the whole conversation about, you know, the NBA's fate and, like,

ratings and all that other stuff. But I do recall a couple weeks ago when someone clearly under the age of 30 was passing around a clip of like the Spurs beautiful ball movement, it was like, Dio to Parker, to Duncan, it was like, we need to get back to this. This is what we need. And then everyone who is. over 30 was like, brother, nobody liked the Spurs because they claimed that they were all boring, which really the case was they didn't have any celebrity players.

And so I've come to this like almost Occam's razor with this whole thing where it's like, people just want celebrities, especially in a league driven by superstars throughout the course of its entire history. So maybe Lamello is actually what we needed. After talking about this ad nauseum for four months, it's actually Lamello Ball is going to save us. Stars. I also think that's okay. Yeah, that's fine. I agree with the, like, you know it when you see a thing.

There's also like, and if you have to ask, they're probably not going to be the face of the league. They have that quality or they don't. Some guys clearly don't want it, don't want any part of it. Yokic doesn't want to be the face of the league. It's abundantly clear. And that's totally fine. So I think it's okay to like let the chips fall where they will naturally fall, which is two guys like Lamello, two guys like Anthony Edwards. You know, to the guys that really like to John Morant for better or worse.

but like these guys really, really pop in a completely singular way and they have the personality to carry it. And you may disagree or you may dislike their games or just like the way they go about their career, whatever it may be. People felt that way about many previous faces of the league. I think we're just going to be in this transitional period where there isn't a Jordan, there isn't a LeBron. It's going to be some flawed heroes up there.

And we're going to have to get used to that for a little while. Yeah. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Ben Cruz stepping in on the ones and twos for production today. we appreciate it. Everyone back in LA, please be safe. We're thinking about you. And we will catch you next time on Thursday.