The Ringer NBA Show - Is This the Beginning of the Next Great NBA Team? | The Answer

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Seerat and Tyler begin the pod by celebrating the Denver Nuggets winning the NBA Finals over the Miami Heat. They examine Nikola Jokic’s dominating performance throughout the playoffs, give big flowers to the excellent role players like Aaron Gordon and Bruce Brown, and speculate on Denver’s future as the premier squad in the league (12:55). They end their conversation by discussing Tyler’s new book 'A Little Blood and Dancing,' and wonder about ex-Nuggets exec Tim Connelly’s mental health after watching the team he helped build win a championship (49:06). Hosts: Seerat Sohi and Tyler Parker Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For as long as I've known the NBA, it's been a Stars League. But even among the Stars, there's an exclusive club. Russell and Dr. Jay, Jordan, Kobe. They're all part of a select group that paved the way for the NBA superstar of today. And some even shared secrets with each other along the way. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Jackie McMullen. And this is the Icons Club. Oh, welcome to The Answer, where we have crowned an NBA champion.

The Denver Nuggets have won their first title in franchise history. And who better to have here with me today than Tyler Parker, who is also celebrating the culmination of a seven-year pursuit. Congrats, Tyler. Your book came out today. How you do it? How's everything going? It's good.

You're really nice for mentioning it. Um, it, it is, uh, overwhelming and exciting and terrifying. And yeah, I'm, but yeah, I, I'm absolutely stoked for the nuggets. I feel that we should being a basketball podcast. Though I would love to, I am going to read the entire first chapter here at the end, um, just, uh, for the people that want to stay through. But no, I, I, I'm, uh, I'm stoked. I am so excited. But yeah, the nugs. It, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, a culmination of just like a real true blue dominant postseason, 16 and 4 and just clearly the big boys on the block the whole time. Yeah, best team in the league all season, number one seed, best player in the league. In hindsight, it probably should have been the three-time MVP. And also just a level of dominance at an age

where it's kind of suggestive of what is to come next. next. I feel like that's what we're all kind of talking about. Is this, is this the beginning of one of the next great NBA teams? Michael Malone, essentially, he said we're not satisfied. He kind of went Pat Riley out in the... He did. Yeah. Malone is got, I mean, his feistyness was on full display all postseason. He's got to get a couple commercials out of this, I think, right? I mean, they'll have to do the coach Mike Malone, great to see you. They'll have to name him. It won't be like when, you know, Magic Johnson's in a commercial. Well, then if you call him Mike, he's also getting it super pissed, too, because he doesn't like being called Michael. That could be the premise. I forgot. I forgot. That should be burned in my brain as a person who covers this stuff.

I apologize. Mr. Malone, coach. I apologize. Lord. This has nothing to do with anything, but it cracked me up when he put his little championship shirt on over his pullover because it made it look like he was wearing shoulder pads kind of. Like he looked like a little bit like Michael Sarah in her rest of the development. when he was wearing the muscle suit underneath those clothes.

And maybe the whole time just knows. I think maybe he just like inflate, he finally got comfortable enough having one to inflate it fully. So he just, it was a toned physique before and now he went for the, for the swole option. The, I mean, Yokic doing all this at the age he is first guy in NBA history to lead the playoffs in total points, rebounds and assists. You know, it's like he's in the tungsten Armo Doyle territory, right?

Like it's just all this stuff is like cartoonish, the numbers. And you just sort of have to start shaking your head at a certain point. The dominance is just absolute. Yeah, Michael Pina wrote a great column about this today, actually, about, you know, Yokic is now amongst the all-time great players. He's definitely a top 20 guy and he's a top 10 center, which is really, I mean, I think it speaks to something about basketball that we've had so many dominant centers.

Like this series kind of speaks to that too. Yokin's entire run, we've had a center renaissance, right? Like, Embedd and Yokic have been competing for the top spot for MVP for the last three years. And, you know, we're going into this draft where we got Victor Wembenyama who is going to kind of push. whatever Yokic is doing right now, I'm kind of just curious. I'm like, yo, like, what is happening next? Like, how are these guys going to continue to push the position into whatever is going to happen next?

Because, like, the stuff, the stuff that he does, right? Like, it's he not only can he can post up, like, he's Hakeem. He runs dribble handoffs with, with Jamal Murray. Like, it's like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker. He can shoot, you know, he's got that. Sombor shuffle is essentially, like, Dirk's one. step fade away with like a with like a step back at it into it right like he's taking all of these things that dominant centers have done but he's also like doing guard stuff too right like that's

that that's like the thing that's really tricky about guarding him is like he's also going to come off a pin down he's going to shoot you know i think he shoot more three's like i was watching so he hit that he hit that like 35 footer i think in game four i'm with you completely i think he should keep going i think he should be firing yeah man like this is kind of like I'm at this place where it's like, are we hitting like Steph Curry? No such thing is a bad shot realm. He almost hit that 80 footer at the end of, I can't remember which buzzer it was,

but it was so close. And I was like, well, of course. This guy has incredible touch. And he, I mean, it's like to everyone's delight and to like the benefit of the Denver Nuggets, he finally over the last, I think after the bubble really embrace the fact that he is a dominant score. And it's good for his team when he tries to be a dominant score. But obviously, like the beauty of Yokic is that he wants to be a pass.

He's like the single best Is he the best pastor The game has ever seen? Are we like I know what's a day after the title But like he has for the last like five years Created passing angles that no one else has So I don't know what do you what do you think I'm not smart enough or capable of putting all the context in my brain

Of the NBA's the NBA's past to say that he's the best ever but shit it got to be top three right at least top like I mean like magic feels still uniquely special

um you know like LeBron is a monster as a passer and especially in some of his younger days could just peddle some nonsense out there

that was like really magical but yeah, I mean, I think the seven-foot thing is a big, big deal with the passing stuff. I think that that's like, it's not underrated because everyone's like, look at this big dude doing all this stuff that little guys do. Like, it's like it's not underrated because it's acknowledged. But I think that the advantages that that gives him and the way that it lets him be, he is so not hurried, even in complete chaos in the trees, with doubles coming at him and guards swiping down,

how casual it can look sometimes, just kind of one-handed little touch flicks down to Gordon or KCP cutting or, you know, whatever, you've got, Murray's going to come off a DHO, right? But he rejects it, goes the other way baseline, and then they start playing a two-man game like that. Like the, there's, he can sit, like, you talking about the angles is right. He just has access to so many more, like, launch points, right?

Like, it's just, it's, I mean, he didn't take his first shot until there were five and a half minutes left in the first quarter last night, pretty much. And it was a three that they had left. him alone for some reason and he nailed it and I think it's just like you know there's going to be like sometimes I worry I get too effusive with the Yokic praise but it's like at this point he's earned it like you can't it's like very few dudes I think in the history of the league with his kind of resume with what was on the line for him last night you know they want to get it done in five like it in their building.

Like a lot of other guys are going to come out pressing and chucking and like, all right, well, like, I got to, you know, put a stamp on this game early, see the ball go in. You know, like, I'm going to dominate tonight. It's going to be a long night for you, bam. You know what I mean? Stuff like that. And just to the end, doing what all the people in the Nuggets organization have been saying about him over and over and over, which is like he just plays how the game tells him.

to. He makes, the ball goes where it's supposed to, and that's that. He's not concerned with how it goes in. He's just concerned with it going in. And that can be a lot of big talk for certain dudes in the league, you know, but like the proof is there last night in the biggest game of his life. He's just going to do what the game tells him to do. You know, you're just, I think if you're If you're a Nuggets fan, I don't know how you don't just feel so calm when the ball's in his hands. You know what I mean? You just must feel, I would feel like such a cocky piece of shit if I was a Nuggets fan when the ball was in Yokic's hands. I would like, I would be unbearable to watch a game with.

It would just, I would just be laughing constantly, I think. Well, that's what you have to do if you're a Nuggets fan, right? I love that you brought up the amount of access points that he has, because I think that that is really what separates him from, every other player in the NBA and from, you know, other great pastors too. I think like that that seven foot thing of you can see everything. That allows

you to control the game without necessarily being controlling of it. You know, he can get off the ball. He wants to get off the ball very quickly. Jamal Murray had a great quote about how he's seen a lot of guys just get into a jumper right away. Like there's no hesitation.

It's like almost like an unconscious auto decision for them, right? And he said that Joker is essentially like that with the past. I think that was in Pina's column. I've just been, you know, taking in Nuggets content, like an IV drip. So I don't really know where any of these quotes are coming from at this point. I feel bad for your listeners that they're going from genius Pina to having to deal with my Philistine ass. But, you know, I'm with you.

It, he's just, he's so fun. And it's so fun that everybody on the team is like, yeah, man. like it's you, do you? You know what I mean? There's nobody's trying to like, even Murray who infinite confidence is like, no, this is the dude. You know what I mean?

Yeah, for sure, for sure. I think like one thing that was really interesting about yesterday, too, that really speaks to the level of faith that they have in the process that Yokic has in his style, the way that he plays a game. It's just like the sheer level of wide open triples that they were missing the entire game. You know, now Yokic, in that third quarter when he really freaked out

during the timeout, that was over the amount of threes that they were taking. He was kind of just saying, like, look, when we're in four on three situations, let's just get an easy bucket, right? I think KCP did a really smart job of that too. Like, their first bucket of the game, when they didn't, like, they didn't score for two and a half minutes. It was

KCP in transition. Just taking the easy shot, like coming off of Aaron Gordon for like an improvised screen and just taking a 10 footer. It was like, that's kind of why you have a champion that a guy on your team. Like that was, but that's point. Like that was Yoko's frustration. It was like we're trying to go for these home run shots when the, you know, when the three just isn't there right now. Um, it wasn't about I'm going to go and

now be the guy that dominates the game. It's game five. It's elimination. These guys are nervous. They need me to go and, you know, just find a bucket. That's just not necessarily how we operate. It's like he finished the game with 16 shots and he only had four assists, but I feel like he would have had 10 if it was just like even a regular shooting night for the nuggets. Uh, but yeah, that, that to me was one thing that just, it was almost fitting that that's how they won, right? Like, just continue to go back to the same sort of style over and over again.

And, yeah, now it's just like, it's, that makes me so excited for the future of Nuggets basketball because now they all will believe it. You know, they've always believed it, right? Like they've said that, you know, especially this year, training camp, it was special. They just felt something was happening. It was different.

But now you have Aaron Gordon, who I think has basically found the role that he is supposed to play in his career. It's almost taken like an Andre Iguodala-esque trajectory of drafted as a high pick, is overburdened as a scorer on a magic team that, you know, he's just trying to do too much for them, right? And he's more focused on offense. And I didn't know this, but Ramona Shelburne wrote a column about how, you know, Gordon coming into the NBA actually always saw himself as a defense.

type of guy. So now, you know, kind of, he can kind of come full circle and embrace that role, which he has. Like, man, like, after, after Yokich and Murray, that's the guy you have to talk about, right? Like, how many special moments has he had in this postseason, right? Like, game one, he just comes out. He is just, he's whipping every single, like, a bull. Yeah, exactly. That Iggy comp is so smart. I have never thought of that. And that's, you're exactly right. And how funny that Iguado was with the nuggets before he goes to the way. That's a great. That's a great call because that's exactly what it is. And even down to last night, like the numbers aren't slapping you in the face or anything,

but the physicality and the, the, the, how constant it is and that he couples it with just all the like, just switchiness and ranginess and leaping ability. he just, I mean, Butler was clearly still dealing with, you know, the ankle and not his full self, but Gordon had him handled. And he had Butler going through it. And I, you know, I think there's a, there's a reason why late there, you know, Jimmy doesn't elevate in that moment, right? Like he's he knows he's dealing with somebody who not seconds earlier

inhaled a Kyle Lowry jumper by like cupping the ball like Jordan. I feel like he wanted to do that all the game. Like Kyle was just pissing him off. How many guys in the league have wanted to see that happen? Like the only thing that could have made that better is he would actually blocked it with his armpit,

which is what I thought happened initially. Watching it live, I was like, did he, did he get? that whole thing, like a, like a, you know, it was, I was insane. Yeah, I would have been. Even on, and I mean, Bruce Brown, like, just all hail Bruce Brown. I love him so much. The huge tip in late with that offensive rebound.

One of the reasons he's loose on the glass to go get that is because Lowry had come off of him because Gordon is crashing like a madman there on that fade that Murray's taken. and Bams wrestling with him trying to keep him off the glass, but Lowry feels like he's got to go down there and help too. And Strues can't get to Brown in time because Lowry's having to deal with Gordon, and Gordon doesn't get the rebound, but because they're having to deal with him, Brown gets in there and it's a bucket. And like it, yeah, just in these games, when it counted,

you did see these dudes who previously might have had some ideas. about themselves as if not a number one option, like, you know, definitely a number two and a guy who give me the ball, I can make plays, you know, like let me, let me hunt some shots, hunt some mismatches with MPGA and Aaron Gordon, right? Like, they find a way and, you know, maybe Gordon a little bit more than MPJ on the series as a whole, right? But like MPGA was flying around last night, not shooting the ball great, but whatever he had, what do you have 13 rebounds? There was 13 points and 11 rebounds or flipped around. Yeah.

I mean, and like playing with a lot of pop, right? Like there was like a special kind of energy there that you don't necessarily feel like he's moving with all the time. I know he's been fantastic this year on the whole. But like there was something about like he just felt even bouncier tonight, I think. And I mean, a close out game, I guess we'll do that to you. But yeah, I mean, I was impressed with the effort. from him all night. I mean, that move on the break where he goes between his legs, like, you know, in a crowd,

I've never seen him be that fluid in my life. That's like, for as stiff as he usually moves, there was something very slick about that. That was very pretty. I love that you brought up that Bruce Brown box up, because first of all, shut up Bruce Brown. And at some point, we should talk about his future. What a guy. Seriously. I mean, like, I know, like, there's a lot of other Nuggets.

talk about, but like, I love watching him so much. That's a guy, like, that's just a positive winning player all the time that knows exactly what he is and is also like capable of looking around and being like, oh, MPJ, you don't have it and Yokic is on the bench and Murray's just gotten doubled. Like, I got this. And sometimes it's bad for role guys to have that in them. But he just met no moment every time. I mean, he just so grimy, so nauty. So, Marley, so flexi. Consistent.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so happy for him. That's, that's,

you know, bag coming. Like, that's going to be a big payday for him. And I'm still. And the thing is he can do, he can do a little bit of everything, which is I think, like,

to your point about, you know, not, it doesn't always work out when role guys are like, hey, it's Bruce Brown time. But the thing is, Bruce Brown time, for, like it can mean so many different things because not only can he come in and get a huge offensive rebound, he's a really good playmaker too.

That floater that he has, man, that floater is deadly. And it's just, it's just one of those shots that is such a backbreaker in the postseason. And it's always been an incredible part of his bag. Like, it's why he kind of, it's kind of why he flourished in this role that wasn't really even constructed for him in Brooklyn where he just started slipping pick and rolls into space and hitting floaters or, you know, hitting, hitting the five men. But he can just do so much from that position, right? Like, Rob Mahoney wrote a really good article about this a couple years ago,

about how the key to playmaking or just, you know, the key to the playoffs is playmaking from the four. And Bruce Brown is not a guy you like kind of look at as being a foreman. He obviously, like one of the reasons he went to the Nuggets is because he wanted to play more point guard. That's the position he's played his entire career. But he's also just very big. He's very strong. And he knows how to do this.

Man, it actually reminds me of this story. I was going to write a Bruce Brown feature a couple years ago. I think he was one who was on the Nets. It just never came together. But I talked to one of his high school coaches, and they used to do these, like, crazy rebounding drills that I think that, like, I think the coach, his name is Alex Pop. He took it from Jim Calhoun,

where basically, like, the whole drill was the offensive team, like, goes for the rebound. every single time. And you like, man, I can't remember exactly what it was at this point. But it was basically just like, we're going to throw the ball into the middle of the floor. And you guys are going to fight to the death for it. So I mean, Bruce Brown has had some practice learning how to be. He's just a physical guy on top of also just being a really good playmaker having that finesse in his game.

He obviously improved as a shooter. He's just, man, he's an all around perfect role player. And I like, if there's any sort of, if there's anything that I look at, And it makes me worry a little bit about the future of the Nuggets is that they're not going to be able to keep him. He's just going to get paid too much money. The most I think he can get paid by them this year is $7.8 million if he opt into his player option. He's a 12 to $17 million guy and he's never gotten the bag before. Like he's got to go get his bag.

And it also kind of speaks to the Nuggets culture though because they all know that. You know, like, post game Porter Jr. was like, we're happy for him because he's going to get paid. And I love that. But it also, you know, I think I almost look at him as like a core role player. I think like it's kind of the way we look at the Nuggets right now, Yokic Murray, MPJ, Aaron Gordon. You'll filter the KCP spot at some point, right? Not to say he hasn't been very important, but it's just it is what it is. I mean, Christian Brown seems to have the goods and he's going to be big for them as they,

especially as they need cheap dudes, like a guy on a rookie scale deal. like he'll be that, you know, can play the minutes he played. I mean, he becomes all the more important now, I think. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He's like, that's, man, Christian Brown. Who saw that coming? Who saw, I mean, the Nuggets did. The Nuggets did pretty much from training camp on.

I mean, they, well, like, they did and they didn't, right? Like, it's like, you know, he falls out of the rotation against the Lakers. And then I just, yeah, there's the resiliency from the Nuggets kind of like, role guys kind of just throughout the playoffs. I mean, like, Bruce Brown had some touch and go moments in the rotation in the postseason two early on, and like they just battle through them. You know, Aaron Gordon wasn't shooting the ball well against the Lakers, just like keeps plugging away.

I'm with you that it really does suck if they are, you know, not going to be able to keep him just because it's a team that has a personality. like and not a lot of teams have at least not a lot of teams right now I think have definable personalities because there is so much turnover in the league and stuff like that like not enough teams you don't sort of know their vibe enough you don't learn you don't learn them you don't see them playing in different ways you see a vast majority of the dudes out there in these spread pick and rolls and kind of, you know, filling the necessary spots around the court or whatever, and the nuggets aren't like that, right?

And they, because of the combination of dudes that they've put together on the roster, they've got all these weirdos like Bruce Brown and Aaron Gordon, who can get real switchy and flexi and play at different spots on the floor and get defenders in situations they're not used to and then start exploiting. that stuff. I mean, what you were talking about with Aaron Gordon in game one, right? Is like, the heat figured out very quickly like, okay, like, that's not going to work. You know what I mean? Like just the how they have so many people that can do so many things and attack different weaknesses. They can just play a lot of different ways, you know?

And it starts with Yokic being able to do whatever you need. But it's also because the guys that they filled out around them and include KCP in that, right? Like, that's a guy who can guard a lot of positions, too. Um, it, they just, uh, they gave Yokic and Murray a lot of dudes that are like, okay, what, what do you need? What, what can, what can I do? You need me there? Okay, I'll be about, I'll stay. Okay. Like, it's like a lot of like, just tell me where you need me. You know what I mean? I'll, like, I'll figure it at, like, that sort of stuff. It, uh, it's just like a very resort. I think that they are just a team that knows how to come up with answers and like, okay, this isn't working, but we can make it work.

We have what we need. How do we make it work? It's like, okay, we have the greatest passing big in the history of the world. We'll just go kind of, it's not working in the middle of zone now. We'll just kind of shift him over here, kind of into the mid post, a little bit up off the block. We'll change where the double has to come from. he's got better angles out to the perimeter or he can attack this guy down low. Like it just,

they just figure stuff out. Yeah, they have such a great mix of structure and fluidity and guys who know their role, but are also empowered to do just a little bit more. And that's kind of the beauty of when you have a lot of really talented players that are willing to accept a role and kind of like on, on most nights do less than what they're capable. Like on most nights,

Aaron Gordon is doing less than what he's capable of. Same with MPJ on Sunnights. I mean, Jamal Murray is. capable of things that are absolutely destructive. But at the same time, it's not something you want him doing every single night. And obviously, Yokic is basically like the poster boy for that, right? And even, you know, I think one thing like KCP this this year has shot, you wouldn't expect it given where he's playing now, but he shot a ton of mid-range

jumpers. And that shot has been really, really money for them. It's just this really good mix that I think is really tough to actually key into. And it's so, I mean, it's a little bit warrior. ask. Like, you can't take away everything because of their mix of different versatile guys that can attack different configurations that you throw at them, right? Like, Gordon, right?

Like, he had, what was it? Yeah, he had 27 points in game four. He goes 11 for 15. So obviously, you know when coming into game five, that's what Miami is going to try to take away. There's a rebound that you talked about that comes out. of it, but also everything, almost every single one of those open corner triple three, it's like, it's because, you know, when Yokic comes off on the short roll, or like, you basically realize that

you can't really, you can't really deal with the Jamal Murray, Yokic two man game in whatever configuration they're going to throw it at you with two people usually. They tried to do that sometimes and that's when Yokic or Murray just decided to do whatever they wanted. You got to bring somebody. And then when you, it's, it's your force. decision that kind of matters the most, it's like, do you give up the cut to Gordon? Which I don't, it's not necessarily that they wanted to do that in game four. It's just that Gordon is such a good cutter and Yokic is such a good passer that they have such incredible chemistry with each other that even when you think that you're taking it away,

like the amount of times that Kevin Love just looks so frustrated with himself in game four, right? So game five, they're like, okay, we can't do that. Okay, it's just going to be a bunch of threes. And we're not even making the threes. And maybe, look, maybe if like this is, there's a team. maybe if Miami has a little bit more offensive firepower, we're talking about a game six, right?

But even without the threes, there were other things that they could go to. And man, like Michael Porter Jr., he hits that huge three that puts him up 6966, but for the most part in this game, when he was successful, it was attacking the rim. It was just using that floater too, just oversized. He seemed really confident in his drives.

Like you mentioned, that side step that, that we've never really seen him do. Yeah, he just, he looks really fluid out there. And I imagine a lot of that probably has to do with being healthy. But he's like, man, he's the youngest part of this Nugget's core. And if he stays healthy and if they stay healthy, what are you going to do? What are you going to do, Yokage, by the way,

is like the most durable superstar that we had. Like, he's never played less than 70 games. It feels like that has now officially become the most underrated thing about him now. I think it used to be the shot making because the assist stuff and the passing stuff was just so out of the ordinary. It took over for a little while and

it feels like now people have like everybody has kind of come around to like, oh, this guy's like a Goliath as a shopmaker. Like this is nuclear stuff. But the durability thing

and they've touched on it a little bit in the finals. The minutes load is really nuts and they that he is so active on both sides of the ball and still like against a team you know against a guy like bam who is who is not going to give up anything right like you're if you don't meet him energy wise it's going to be a problem like even then just like doesn't you don't want to say doesn't get tired because sometimes you look at him out there and you're like, yeah, maybe you look a little gas. But like it just, it doesn't seem to affect him in that way.

Like the way he plays, he's already playing so low to the ground. And the balance and touch is just so off the charts. And his hands are so good. Like you can see that on some of those swipe downs that he'll have on the defensive end, right? Like, and I think even on some of those, they can finish some possessions sometimes because he didn't get the defensive rebound, but he tipped it to Gordon who then pushes up or whatever. Like he's doing plenty on the back end now.

And so it's like, yeah, I just, I'm kind of at a loss for what to expect going forward. Because if I were a Nuggets fan, you talk about health, I'd start getting real brave. I'd start being like, yeah, y'all are lucky that Jamal's been hurt the last couple post seasons. Like, I'd just start making all sorts of wild accusations to the past couple of title winners. I'd be pissing Golden State people off, Laker people off. I mean, like, it, it, when they've got their horses, they are a load. And, you know, it, if they're able to shore up stuff on the margins, if they do lose Brown, right? Like, if they're able to do, I mean, because, I mean, he was.

He was such a big deal for them this year. Like Malone was basically calling him. He's my sixth starter, right? Like he was a big, big deal for them. And I don't think will necessarily be easily replaced. And so it, but yeah, I mean, there's, there's, I think there's reason, there's no reason to think that they're not going to continue to be this. like they've it they are a big physical team that can play a lot of different ways and have

the the ultimate queen on the chess board that can beat you however you tell him to beat you like he doesn't even he's the guy who's like you know what you pick my lineup in the in fantasy this week and i'll still beat you you whatever like I'll show up. You pick how you want me to beat you, and then we'll just go from there. Yeah, I mean, him and Murray now playing kind of with the pressure off too,

like having won a ring and just able to kind of play even looser. Yeah, I think offensively it could get real, real nuts next year in Denver. I think it just could get so far. Yeah, I think we could see just like, some really ridiculous winning streaks. You already play mile high, right? So it's not an easy place to go and win anyways. It's about to get even harder.

And I think, okay, before we pivot to Miami, unless there's anything else you wanted to say about the Nuggets, the last thing I wanted to touch on was just Yokic in an all-time context. So he's 28 years old. He's going to be around a while. we talked about the durability we talked about how he has even more

untapped potential in his offensive game he's not the type of player who has ever relied on athleticism that's been the biggest critique if anything of his game he's only going to get smarter with his time he's entering his athletic prime

he has gotten better every year since he's been in the league I would say like they could ride this out for like seven or eight years, you know, and 28 when he won his first ring. I mean, like, I was just looking at some of the other big men that were starting to compare him to.

Shaq was 27. He was in his seventh year. Yokic also, like, you know, he's, he's, his eighth year, but I think you also have to remember that like, those first two seasons coming as a second round pick, he was just trying to figure out what he was, you know? Like, and he had no idea that he could ever be this good. But, like, I think this is a guy that could age like Steph.

Like, I watch Steph sometimes and I'm like, you're in your athletic prime right now. And I don't, I would not be surprised because Yoko just kind of like taking a similar trajectory and has a similar style, right? But like, yeah, some of the other guys, right, like David Robinson, 33 when he won his first ring. Hakeem was 31. Wilt didn't win until he was 30. Kareem won his first when he was 23, but he didn't win his seven. second until he was 32. So like, I think big man development and then trying to find the right guys around them is, is a part of this conversation too. But man, like, he's young. He kind of

has a head start on some of these guys that like, I don't even, the beauty of this is that Yokic will not care. Um, like, we're going to talk about this. And he's just going to continue to talk about how like there are other things that are more important. He's just going to want to get back home to his horses and all that. But like, that's, that's kind of the beauty of it too. like mentally, I think there's a guy like he really emulated his game off too, but mentally he's a little bit like Tim Duncan. And that's kind of what I could see like this, this Nuggets team being as well. Like we've made some Warriors comparisons. But the thing with the Warriors is like they were so down to play the game, you know?

Like shout out to like Steve Kerr and his just like willingness to open up the locker room. Shout out to like Raymond Ritter, like one of the best PR guys in the NBA. And this team that just really truly wanted to like tell their story and like this star and stuff. Curry that was incredibly accessible to an American market and was okay with being accessible to like now I don't think Yoko just going to go and like retreat or hide away anywhere but he's he's annoyed of all of this right and I think it's going to be really interesting to see like what the modern version of that looks like because like unlike in the Spurs era where they were just his team that you know basketball fans absolutely loved but they just couldn't

you know push the needle for the NBA when it came to just you know get to just you know getting to that bigger sort of audience. The difference now is that when Yokic does these things that are, they're so charming to us because we just have been accustomed to, and this isn't just stars, like, I feel like we're going to, like, there's going to be a lot of really annoying conversations

in the next little while about how like everyone needs to be more like Yokic and all that stuff. And like, yeah, the thing. Oh, there will be, yes, there will be like, there will be a that that there that's such a good call and you are exactly right and it will make those of us who really like yokic it'll be very frustrated because it'll be like okay don't that's not what we're shut up yeah like let people be the this is he's being exactly he's being exactly who he is and he's like he's doing it his own way like let's just let's let's appreciate things in that way across the board yeah like let's just let's just let's let's appreciate things in that

way across the board. Like, let's just... Yeah. This is just like, it's just an interesting culture, though. It's like just obsession with celebrity and fame while also denigrating the very characteristics that it creates. It's like, okay, guys. And we will then continue to pay attention

to these people that we call, you know, that we say have self-inflated ego. Anyway, whatever. Different conversation. So we're a confused people, I think. You know, just in general. We're all confused. But the thing is, so back when Duncan was just like not giving anybody the time of day.

It's not like you could make it into a meme, you know? Now every single thing that Yokic does, even if he doesn't necessarily want to play the game, we will still be able to document it. We will call it very charming. We will love it for all the reasons that it is a very just lovable, awesome thing. Like it's like it has like obviously like just the fact that he is so unselfish. Like there are there are things about Yokic as a human being that just seem really. great. But on top of that,

it sells. I think it's like the fact that it doesn't sell really sells. He had this quote in the All Star in his All-Star interview about how the last few years he used to say that he didn't want to win the MVP and he didn't care about the MVP, but for some reason

even that got him a lot of attention. So now he's just going to say that he wants to win the MVP, which is hilarious. But you know, just even like the lethargic shaking of the champagne in the locker

we have that that is going to be a thing now you know it's all so good I'm with you so much it's so weird whenever you do hear some of these talking heads or fans

start being like you know the well the NBA is going to be upset you know Denver's a small market and Yokic you know doesn't want to talk or whatever it's like all that stuff you just mentioned

is infinitely charming even if he would was a total mute off the court and just walked around like the robot candidate in Parks and Recreation that Aubrey Plaza worked for, like, and just was the most vanilla thing in the world. If what that guy does between the lines is what Yokic does, that is a guy you can market to every basketball fan in the world. everybody gets so caught up in like oh well like he's really charismatic or such such such such like

you know like everybody gets caught up and looking for everybody to be they want everybody to be barkley or something and it's like we're trying to market the fact that this guy's really good at this game that he's really good at like pick a good song some good stills and five of his passing highlights and go make some classic Nike commercial commercial. It's the easiest, it really does feel like it would be the easiest thing in the world for them to, like, if people will just watch him and if the league can just embrace like, oh, this guy's game is as funky as we could ever hope for. It really does feel like the type of, like now that we've sort of, hopefully will now be past all that, like, well, he hasn't got it done in the postseason and Embedge should have won. Like, he's sort of squawful. all that. Now kind of in this new part of his career where everyone's just like, this dude's a badass, this guy kills. Like, everybody just needs to move on to like the stuff that this guy does on a basketball floor every night, you should be running to your TVs. It's, it is just constant

entertainment and surprises too. Like it's, you know, in a league where everybody is starting to play a little bit the same, he just refuses to do that because of the way he's processing things. And so it's, yeah, I don't even know if I'm really, if I'm really answering your question or anything, and I'm rambling like a lunatic, but that, that's like. You're on a tear, Tyler, in my opinion. I feel like he should skyrocket. Like, I don't know why, like, my dad called me the night. He was like, man, Yokic, unbelievable. You know what I mean? And like, my dad loves basketball, and we talk about it sometimes. But that's not,

he wouldn't just offer that up all the time, you know what I mean? Like, just bring, and it's like, no, when you, when you started getting the text messages from people that normally don't watch basketball,

like that's what started happening with Steph, right? Like, right, yes. They just became an omnipresent force in life, not just sports. It was the warriors and people that I had never talked to about even sports in general were talking about,

I mean, they were talking about three ones. a lot, but, you know, but that was also, like, that was a, that was a year that they became, that, and that this, that actually, like, that year was a year that they became famous. Like, that was like the Warriors as Beatlemania,

people are lining up, you know, to early, early before games to watch Steph Curry warm up. Like, that was a year, it was a year after they won the championship, because they kind of had the same thing as the Nuggets, where until they won, everybody was like, this doesn't work. And it reminds me of, it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Succession

that it don't think gets enough play. It was in the second episode when, I mean, Logan was wrong for this, but he basically, like, it was when he wanted to, I mean,

Logan's wrong for a lot of things, but he wanted to buy a bunch of those TV networks. And Ken was basically just questioning, like, hey, are you a little bit over the hump here? And then Logan basically said something along the lines of like, nobody says it can be done until you go in and fucking do it.

And then once you do it, they all act like it was so fucking obvious. and that's basically what ended up happened with the Warriors and it's like that's how quickly the discussion has flipped with the nuggets too like now we are like how is Yokic going to change the

future of the big man position well quickly we have pivoted right right right it is funny how like people that were doubters less than a month ago how just

the machine of sports and whatever you know media, it just gets moved on to like, hey, is this, is this, is this, is this the next Russell? What can we, what are we going to do? You know, like, there's, they're just, you know, everybody just loses, loses it and is just sort of like, I don't know, that's a, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know how much sense I'm making. But the, yeah, I mean, I, the Jamal Murray stuff, like, he's always not going to get as much shine as Yokic because

Yokic is just just a different animal I think like he's one of the one percenters like you know the 1% of the 1% and I mean Murray's a monster too and it stinks that he might not get the shiny deserves just because

he's sharing it with him but like and other people have shared this stat but it does feel like significant enough to repeat there's been four guys that have averaged 20 points in 10 assists and over 20 points and over 10 assists in the finals. Magic Johnson's done it twice.

Jordan did it once. LeBron did it twice and Jamal Murray this year. And so it's like this was, like Murray was on a tear, just ripping through defenses this postseason and was just lights out in the finals. I hope that in all the Yolk it doesn't get lost that like to come back from the injuries that he came back from and you know you hear him miced up saying you know thanking cronkey which feels gross that he even did it but i get that it's sports but just like you know thanks for being patient with me and believing in me and stuff like that like those those sorts of things

like he must have dealt with so much stress and grief and um worry during those rehab periods terrified that he's either not going to get a chance to try it again with this team that he wants to try it with or just that he's not going to get back to, you know, the level he was at before and to see him, you know, to use his line about Embed and Yokich and running for the MVP and Embed gets the MVP and Yokic runs right past him. He just ran right past his old self. you know what I mean? Like he's another, he's gone up a level now and is just like a special offensive force, I think.

I mean, like the Yolkich's creativity is a little bit more obvious than Murray's. But like, as an improviser, that guy is off the charts. Like he just, the way that they work together and the way that he moves off the ball, It's just, yeah, he's just a perfect fit for what they do, but also just like a really, really special dude to watch when he gets cooking. Like, it, it, he had been gone long enough that I had forgotten just how just bombastic he was in Orlando in 2020. And like, it was such a wonderful way for him to remind everybody during. these playoffs just like, hey, you know, I got a flamethrower over here. I think he's going to see a very significant bump in just reputation, but also just like,

it'll extend, like he's going to get a lot more calls now. You know what I mean? Like, I think he'll get to the line more now, just little, little rep factor things. Like, I think, I think he's still headed up the hill. You know what I mean? I don't think he's, I think that the, I think he's going to get better and better. Oh, yeah. He's only, I mean, he's only 26 years old. He's in his seventh season. He lost an entire season.

He had to spend, that's like one of the things that we don't talk about enough in terms of, you know, development is the way that injury is not only impede the time that you're playing, but take away your opportunity to develop further in your game. The fact that Jamal not only, you know, came back from a torn ACL, but then also came back as like a better playmaker. And maybe, you know, maybe that's credited somewhat to the time away. We just have to sit there and watch the game for so long as opposed to being a part of it. But yeah, just the fact that he was able to do that.

And this is a guy that men, like, in so many ways, he is the opposite of Yokic, where this is something he has wanted his entire life. Like, there have been so many stories that I personally love about the way that his dad leveraged the cold in Canada in order to, like, turn Jamal into a basketball player, whether it was like, you know, doing, you know, like doing like, you know, weight, weighted exercises on the ice or, you know, having to pick out frozen leaves to increase his hand strength. I just like, as someone who basically was like relegated to like trying to do ball handling drills in the basement in the winter, like, it's just like a level of creativity that I find so personally inspiring. Before we get out of here, big day for you. You want to plug the book a little bit? I mean, I'll plug it a little bit.

It's called A Little Blood and Dancing. It's a novel. It's my first. It took me seven years to write. I think it's good. It's kind of a modern Western kind of crime story, but I think it's got some good bits in there, too. And, yeah, it's kind of a story of revenge. and somebody whose dad gets shot and they grow up and find out the guy is still doing pretty well for himself.

They've got pretty religious in the intervening years and start to think, well, I know thou shalt not kill. That's wrong. But, hey, God, this guy sucks, right? Like, look at this. Like, we saw him on the TV. We see how well he's doing now. like this guy's a disaster and I'm having a rough one like

this can't stand. Does it cool if I go kill him? I don't know I'm supposed to but is it, would that be, you know, and it kind of, it's her trying to talk herself into it. So, I mean, I know you're doing the interview circuit and everything so I won't, you know, keep you here too long. But I just, when I heard

you say seven years, I think the first thing that came to mind is just like, I don't know, that's just such an incredible. I don't know if you would call it a labor. I imagine they were laborious moments in it, as I imagine it is for anybody who wrote a book. But just how did you conceive of this? I got the idea for it back in like probably 2014 or something like that and didn't really

start writing it in earnest until 2015. But yeah, I mean, honestly, it was initially supposed to be. a book about this couple that wins the McDonald's monopoly million dollars and then someone comes after them for the money basically. And it's, remember that show McMillions that came out on HBO? That was based on like a long form story too, right? That show, yeah. It was based on an awesome piece and I hate that I can't remember the title. Yeah, it was on Clee. I can't remember it now. Yeah. It's very good. But, and the, the, the, the, way that the characters in the book won the money was just through like pulling them off

some fries, pulling the pieces off some fries and like a McDouble, right? And so it wasn't the same thing at all. Like the McMillians was like the dude who was in charge of the pieces, like working security kind of for McDonald's and Monopoly or something, was in cahoots with his friends and other people basically being like, hey, here's where, here's the piece. You you claim it will split the money. Mine wasn't like that, but it was just got worried that there was going to be some confusion with when we were taking it out trying to sell it. And so I kind of made a change.

And there became a rich uncle entered the mix who was quite old and feeble. couldn't and that's kind there's that's how they wind up I'm spoiling my own book but that's how they wind up coming into the money um and so yeah it started as one thing much different as far like you know the the the the the plot machinations and things like that but yeah it's it's it's it's it's it's it's I'm pumped that I made the change because the book's just in a much much better spot. Like it's just, it was the right call

for the book. And, you know, I was one of the things it's like, well, I've been working on this for a long time, and it really sucks

that I got to go change a bunch of this stuff. Like, I would really rather not. But it just was sort of like, you sit with the idea for a little bit, and you think about how you'd try to execute it.

And you're like, I think that, I guess it does probably make the book better. All right, I'll do it. And then you do it and you're happy you did. You know, it's like it's a better book because I decided to make those changes. And so, yeah, I'm happy I did. It's kind of like when you get a really good edit back,

but the edit is going to require work from you that, like, you didn't necessarily anticipate. You thought the piece was closer than it was. And like, you can see the vision, but you got to take a moment to actually accept that what's going to happen now is that you were going to go in and actually do all those things. But like obviously on a much, much bigger scale there. Well, no, no, you're exactly right.

It is very much like a, oh, man, I got to go, I got to go research a bunch. Oh, okay. You turn the corner, though, and it becomes fun again after. I was like, you're like, okay, no, this is awesome. Well, it's a new thing to, it's like a new thing to try and figure out. Yeah. A new, it's a different puzzle to try to like, all right, where's the corner pieces? Like, I forget where they're supposed to, like, you know, like it, no, it was, it was the right, the right move.

How long did it take you to make those changes? I mean, I don't know how long the first draft right after it was, but from the time that I made the changes, I don't know, five months, something like that. To get the first draft, it took much longer to get it right, you know what I mean? But to initially make the change something like that. And then, yeah, it was probably another year plus of kind of revising, editing, trying to figure out, like, it changes the math in the book. It changes things that happen to other characters, too. It changes other conversations later in the book.

It's just sort of like, you know, once the wind, like, gets inside the house, just all the papers are flying everywhere. and you're like, okay, like, I got to like close the window and get everything back in front of me so I can figure out, all right, what do I have to, you know, I can't, I got to take out all my, all my Baltic Avenue jokes now. You know, this is devastating, but I've got to do it. The things you have to leave on the cutting room floor, it's tragic. It's tragic sometimes. You know, they're still in the notes app, maybe one day, you know, we'll see. Yeah, yeah.

You can, I mean, you could just read them out for everyone at some point. I was going to ask you one thing What do you think What do you think life was like for Tim Conley last night? Oh my God, I was thinking that Oh man, I almost like I almost texted him just to kind of Check in a way

Because it was very curious And I was like, it's probably not the right time I'm sure he's happy for like He's one guy that like no one's really talked about a lot Throughout this run But he was the architect of the core and I think also a pretty big part of what has made their culture so unique. Like they have this sort of mix of being funny and lighthearted and a good place to come into work every day,

but also being serious and professional and also not necessarily wanting to hog the spotlight either, which might be one of the reasons we haven't really heard from him. you know, I'd imagine, I have to imagine people have asked him to speak on this, right? And he's, you know, he's also a current GM. Maybe that gets complicated in certain ways. But he was a huge part of this.

And I imagine it, man, it's got to be a mix of everything. Like, because one year away and the thing that you were building towards, I mean, you never say no to however big of a bag he got. And you also got to give credits to Calvin Booth. He made some really good, like Bruce Brown and KCP. are, you know, his doing. And that's what, that was like the balance of offense and defense that pushed him over the hump.

So, you know, but yeah. I mean, I mean, like, I'm with you completely on booth and like two huge ads that like, that clearly the exact right moves. The weirdest thing about the Conley thing to me is like, what if the wolves had just had been good? And not, what if the, what if it wasn't so evident that the Gobert trade was just a, complete disaster. Like if he hadn't just made this horrendous move, would he and everyone else feel a little bit more comfortable

being like, let's give credit to part of the mastermind behind some of this? But it's like, that was a part of it too, whereas like no one wants to come out and be like, good on Tim Conley, brilliant exec. and it's like, well, I mean, he just traded the world for a guy who struggles with layups. So like, what are we going to do here? Man, yeah, that's tough. It just really, really interest.

Yeah, that is. And man, like, just shows you how fickle reputation is too, because this is a guy who drafted Yokic and Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr., which was, man, that was a gamble. Drafting Michael Porter Jr. was a huge gamble. Like, the way that people were, you know, like the evaluations. on his back were basically, and Mirren wrote a good story about this, were basically that this guy might not play. And there were also attitude concerns, which I feel like we're a little bit overblown, especially considering what we've seen from MPJ. I also feel like pre-draft

attitudes are basically just things that, or pre-draft reputations are built by like spurned agents and spurned college coaches and just like kind of the worst part of like the leaking industrial complex that we're about to to head into in the draft. Not to say that MPJ was like perfect. He probably wasn't, but at the same time, I haven't seen enough ever from him, like from his rookie year onto now to suggest that any of those things that people thought about how he was as a teammate were ever true. But that's not something we knew then. Like that was a really good pick that paid off for them. And it was like the gamble they needed to make, they needed a little bit more talent. And then they lose Jeremy Grant and they replaced him with Aaron Gordon. That was also

a Tim Connolly move. Those were really smart moves. But he also made one of the, the worst trades in NBA history. And right now in this moment, that is what he is known for more than the other stuff. We are, we have such like, I guess it's what have you done for me lately all over again. But yeah, the number of emotions that are just like raging inside of him must, it must just be off the charts. I hope he's, I hope he's like on a beach somewhere or something. He's got to take a load off.

You can't be, turn the TV off. You know what I mean? Like, just relax, hopefully. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I imagine he's happy for a lot of those guys. Hopefully that is like a more dominant emotion than the other stuff. But totally reasonable that the other stuff would exist. I guess the other thing was like, I don't know how much.

It's hard for me to remember. I mean, I know Yokic had been playing so well. And so that's why they made the move. But it didn't feel like it was just a slam dunk to be like, all right, let's get rid of NERC and just like throw. all our eggs in the Yokic basket. Like I know there were some crazy, crazy, you know, numbers early on and some advanced stats suggesting like, wait, if we give this by the ball a little more, this might get

like a circus out here. But, you know, if it, like, that's, yeah, I mean, he made that, he made the right call there to, you know, I was just, training Nurkich was not a no-brainer at that moment. Okay, yeah, that's what I, what I thought in my head. It wasn't, no. Couldn't quite get there. Yeah, especially, especially back then. I mean, NERC was, I don't know, it's like, it's, it's not like you're saying he was like, you know, incredibly special talent or anything like that. But like he showed some stuff and Yokic was not anything at that point, right? No. No. And it was, it was, I remember it being like, oh, okay, cool. All right. Like, you know, that sort of thing. Like, okay, there's that, so that's, that's, that's how they feel, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It was kind of clarifying about.

about what they feel about those two guys. And obviously ended up being, yeah, I think they feel good about it. I think they feel okay about it. Yeah. Anything else you want to hit on before we get out of here? I'm good. I'm good.

Thank you so much for having me. It's awesome to talk to you. Awesome to talk to you too. Enjoy the rest of a day. Everyone go fucking get his book, man. Like, what are you doing? What are you waiting for? And that also goes on me, too.

You sent me a galley that I have to admit that I did not ever get a chance to. Dude, I mean, I sent it to you during basketball season. I knew I was, it was like a, hey, you know, here it is for later. Well, later is, later is now. Later is now. We got some time. I'm going to be reading it on a beach somewhere and I look forward to it.

All right. You're the best. Thanks, Tyler. Appreciate you hopping on. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Ben, for producing. And we will catch you guys probably next week.