The Ringer NBA Show - Is This the Clippers’ Last Chance at a Championship? | Real Ones

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

Logan and Raja are joined by the returning Howard Beck to discuss the Clippers’ chances as a championship team, and what could possibly come in the offseason if they can’t get it done this year (03:00). Later, the guys react to the NBA’s recent fine on Rudy Gobert and share a lot of thoughts on NBA officiating (35:00). Later, producer Kerm joins the guys to get into mailbag questions submitted by you! Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have news shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us on the press box.

What's popping. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there. Howard Beckett the Cut. He's back, baby. Live back from New York after a trip to the mothership in Sweden for intro days. How was it for you?

You're personally a part of the crew now, huh? How did you feel? How was it, Howard? I feel Spotify. Is that a verb? I feel fully Spotify. Three straight days of like listening to every one of the top level execs from Spotify. Fired up.

It's fun. But actually, you know, the most important part of it, of course. Like, it's important to get to know about the company, all that. Spotify, good company. They treat us well, all that stuff. But FICA, man. The ones who know, no, the cinnamon buns, the FICA breaks. That's going to stay with me for a long time.

Mostly in my midsection. there you go all right that's cool so did you get in stock though it was fun did you get did you get any like intimate knowledge of the company that you didn't know about did you is there any is there anything you need to report back what's what's going on i mean it's all off the record we're not supposed to say anything on uh on a pod you know so it's those are those are that's like corporate knowledge corporate secrets like we can't just disclose that to the public i don't know how i didn't me and rosson haven't had the privilege of going to intro days rosser didn't

Raja hasn't been there. I didn't get to go. Raja's over here looking like he's left out. I ain't ever been invited to an office. Spotify to Raja. Like a remote office. Like Spotify to Raja is literally, I go to my desk. I see and I see people in squares that I'm not sure actually real people.

Where are the Spotify offices? Oh, yeah. We got some here in New York. We got great offices here in New York. Raja, come visit. Come pull up on us in New York. time we all in New York come pull up, you know? Look, I don't go places where there's a chance I might get to the door and then be like,

hey, yeah, I don't know if you're. And so since I don't know anyone there and without the invite, I'm probably not just showing up. We just invited you. That's a thing of mine. We'll get you in. I don't like, oh, you got the juice? Yeah.

I mean, we do. Okay. Literally with a Spotify place. I went up to floor World Trade Center a couple of weeks ago and said, I'm an employee, damn it. Let me get my badge. I didn't say that. It was like, let me get a badge.

I'm an employee. Hi, guys. And then just waited nervously. And they were like, yes, cool. And then I met Howard. And then we marveled at the skyline of New York for about 10 minutes. Incredible views. Incredible views.

Great offices. Maybe I'll pull up. I mean, I don't know. Next time I'm in New York. Endless free coffee, Raja. I don't know how you feel about coffee. Endless free coffee. I feel very strongly about coffee.

I don't have a transition for this guy. We're going to talk about the Clippers, all right? A little sluggish early in the morning. We're locked in. That don't mean you can't find a rhythm. You know what I mean? We come out at the gates cold, some nights, miss your first couple shots. Like, hey.

You know, I'm working myself into a lot of it. Just kind of how like the clippers are trying to work their way back into. We're talking. Into the season post the All-Star break. They're five and five in their last 10 games. They had that monster run after Westbrook decided to go to the bench early. in the season and they'm trying to regain that rhythm. It's been interesting.

But one of the things that I have been curious about, I went to go see the Clippers a couple of weeks ago. And I kind of moonlighted this topic to Howard last night is basically I was wondering during my time there, is this the Clippers last legit shot at a title? And one of the things that really struck me, you know, Harden, last year of his deal. Kauai has gotten an extension, but it seems like with all the injuries

that they have had over the last few years, combined with the playoff disappointments. We know how hard this league is. And I want to start with you, Rajah. Based on what they're doing right now, I think they're fourth in the Western Conference. They have shown inklings of them figuring it out behind the great play

of Kauai and Paul George. George, what is the, if you're on the Clippers right now, Roger, what is the urgency this year when you're healthy, relatively speaking? You know, Westbrook is rehab and trying to get back into the fold. But if you're a veteran in that locker room, what are you telling the guys about the urgency for this team to try to go make a run and try to win a title when nothing else is promised beyond this season? Yeah, I mean, we're to code red. level in terms of our sense of urgency to win this year. For a number of reasons, you know, you just talked about contract situations and what we look like moving forward from that regard.

But let's assume everyone stays. I mean, Kauai is an older player now who, to be fair, was injured a lot when he was younger. That usually doesn't get better as you play more basketball. Russell Westbrook, you know, I'm a Russ Stan, but we're on the back end of that, right? And so every year there's going to be a slight decline to what percent or degree I couldn't tell you definitively, but it's just not, it's not getting better at this point. Do you know what I mean? So you couple that with the fact that this year it feels kind of wide open in a way that you might not say every year.

Like obviously there's Denver that won it last year and Boston looks great at time. but you have to look around and think that if you're in that upper echelon of teams in either conference, that provided you get some good draws and you're healthy, this is a real opportunity of a year. So when you put all of that together, if I'm one of the vets in that locker room, that's just what I'm saying to folks. Like, listen, guys, this is a year where if we can get healthy down the stretch, if we can find our stride, you know, and we're locked in in a way that someone else might not be if there are a higher seed than us or what have you,

we could do this. And so for all of those reasons, let's get this done right now. Howard, with this specific team, you know, it has its roots to the 2019, the summer of 2019. And I'm sure me and you both were in Vegas and when it was in the struggle of the night,

we're just seeing, oh, Paul George and Kauai are going to the Clippers. And there was this assumed notion that this will lead to multiple years of not only contention, but just titles and also a pendulum shift in Los Angeles, right? Now, the Clippers throughout the regular season over those last few years have been the better team over the Lakers and have been, have made strides to maybe one playoff run in the bubble, if you want to say that, was legitimate to compete for a title. If they don't do it this year, what does that say?

for the front office and everything that it took to get those two guys. And what will the legacy be of that night? Not necessarily this year, but in the next few years, if they don't win, what does that say for this team and the ambition that they had on that night? There's a lot that's happened to the last five years, obviously, since that incredible, that coup. Like, it was a coup. The Clippers, I can't emphasize this enough over the years.

The Clippers had never been a destination, ever, ever, ever, ever. The fact that they got two of the top 15, top of wherever they were, wherever Kauai and Paul George were at that moment in time in 2019, that is earth shattering. That is, that just changed the way I think everybody thought about the clippers. And I think that that endures, right? They're going into their own building for the first time in their entire Southern California history. They will have their own home starting in the fall.

and they will go into it with at least Kauai. Maybe it'll be Kauai and Paul George and James Hardin. Probably will. That would be my guess. And this is a new era, right? Like it started with the shift from Sterling to Balmer. It starts with all kinds of things. There's a lot of little things along the way, too.

Like even the Doc Rivers era there with Lobb City, with Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan. That group, every single piece of this has moved them forward and kind of taken them out of you know, the dark ages of the clippers just being a perennial laughing, laughing stock. So I think like there's a permanent change in how we view them. They're no longer squandering their best asset, which is that they're located in L.A. And that other team in L.A., the one with all the banners and all the glamour, they only got 15 roster spots. So if you want to live in L.A. and you want all the things that come with that, there's another option now.

And for decades, like the Clippers were not a realistic option. So I say 2019, no matter how this ends, right, if the season ends in the first round for them, if it's if it's a catastrophe, if they all get hurt again, whatever it is. And they never win a championship, 2019 still mattered. Getting Paul George and Co-Wi Leonard, I think still mattered. All that said, and we can come back to this. But I was ready to dismiss it, Logan, when you sent me the text about, is this it? That felt very dramatic.

Is this it? Is it now or never? And then the deeper I dug in, and we can get back to it. But the more I'm starting to think, I do think this is it. Like, I do think it's kind of now or never for this group. The reason why I asked it, and I'll do this to pose this question to Rajah, the reason why I asked the question was, if you look at, we know there's only, a finite amount of time to win at the level of the Clippers aspire to win at, right? And you need, there's a finite amount of time and there are only certain players that can

help you do that. If you look over the last couple of years, what happens? Kauai Leonard, you know, messes up his knee, right? That just erases a whole season. Then Paul George hurts his shoulder. There's so many injuries with him, right? Even with, and the, the overriding notion was if this team ever gets healthy, this team ever gets healthy. This team ever gets healthy. They're the deepest team in the league. They're coached by one of the best coaches in the league in Thai-Lew. But we also know when you get to this point how hard it is to sustain.

And when you have a – we're being Roger talk about this all the time. When you have a chance to go win, you have to do it. And at the fourth seed, when you have an aging core in the way that they do, playing healthy, and as well as they've played in certain times, right, I was watching this team against Houston last week and just how good that they can be in spurts. But this isn't, none of this is promised, right, Roger? Like, none of this can end up happening. And if you look at their next year, for instance, right?

They're another year older. Kauai is another chance for Kauai or Paul George to get injured in that way. We know James Harden doesn't have that more anymore years left. This and nothing, and this is the chance for them to, and the way that they've been playing this season, it's finally a chance for them to actually make due on the promise that they made a few years ago. And even that isn't promised

because the two guys that they're relying on are injury prone. The third guy that they're relying on doesn't really play well in the playoffs when it matters the most of James Harden. And then you have, then who are you, then that just makes the urgency all the more palpable, right, Roger? You know, there are a lot of things that point to this being the year.

that they need to get this done, right? And just generally speaking, windows don't stay open forever. You know, you've got a core, whether you've, whether circumstances in the past, you know, haven't allowed you to really capitalize on everything that you've got there or not. That's besides the point. Like, your window is rapidly shutting. And you did, like, I didn't say Paul George,

but another one that's injured a lot. Like that, those things don't get better. When you have guys that are just on the other side of their, prime or maybe still in their prime to a degree. The urgency, it is now. It's a now thing because you just typically don't get healthier while you're playing the same amount of minutes and carrying the same sort of load, if that makes sense. You're not going to, you know, your skill sets like Russes and James Harden, once they

peaked and they plateaued for a while and they've been at the highest level, they don't have a resurgence and then just get better at the tail end of their career. That really, if ever happens. And so you've got to go out there and win. And I would just add one more thing to it as great as Tai Lu is. And I believe Tai Lu is fantastic. I've said this before. But I also, in fairness, talk about like messaging.

And when you're really close to winning, but you just don't get over the hump. Like at some point, the messaging becomes like stale. And, you know, I do think certain coaches have a way about them that keeps it fresh for longer than others can. And I think Tyloo falls into that category. But that's just another piece of that puzzle, you know, of why we would want to get this thing taken care of this year. And so, you know, again, I think if I'm a vet in that locker room, I'm trying not to make it a pressure cooker of a situation for some of the guys that might not be at the same point in their career as I am. You know, I don't want to add any additional pressure. But I certainly, I certainly want

us to understand that we're fully capable of this. And this is of all the years an excellent opportunity for us to really put our best foot forward and win a championship. Because it's really, you know, it's really right there. And I said it before. Like if you look around, you know, we do this a lot. You guys might not want to admit to it. Like when they're talking about who you want to draw in the first round and, oh, we don't care. We just want to play. That's bullshit. People are looking around all the time. People look around all the time saying, man, you know, we ain't worried about that. You know, like, it happens all the time. And so as it pertains to them this year, if you're looking around, there may be teams they don't want to see, but I think big picture,

they're looking around saying this could be had. Yeah. You know? Howard, you spoke on the Induit Doe, which is what, where the Clippers are moving to next year. And this is Steve Palmer is talking about how this is going to unlock the franchise and unlock the team because, I mean, we could talk, Even the greatest example I would unlock the team just from a basketball standpoint, you could look at the example of over the weekend where the Clippers had to play two back-to-back afternoon games, yesterday of which because the Lakers had priority on the lease where they can play the most desirable games. They got the 630 game last night on ESPN against the Timberwolves. But as a result, the Clippers have to play a 12 o'clock baton A so they can get out of the time.

of the building so the building's head tenant can play its game that's just one example but another example is you know the the into a dome is going to host Olympic play in a few years right and just and will be immortalized in that way and a lot more concerts and a lot more revenue and that the clippers owners and the team can help build a team with right we saw i see that all the time with chase center and how that's unlocked what the what the warriors could do in their front office with the money that comes in with all these different things that are privately owned building. When you see what the Clippers are going to do with this building, how will that transform their standing in Los Angeles?

That part is really hard to get a gauge on, right? So the Clippers used to play at the L.A. Sports Arena, right, near USC, downtown L.A., crappy-ass old building. And they were there all the way up until Staples was built. Staples was built by the L.A. King's owners, right? So the Lakers come in as tenants and then the Clippers jump in as the third, like third man in, basically. So the Clippers, by the way, it's not just that the Clippers got often screwed by the scheduling, as you alluded to, Logan. They have the smallest locker room by far of anybody of those tenants. That really stuck in their craw.

There was a lot of little things that felt a slight. So they get a big chip on their shoulder all the time about this as an organization. understandably so. Well, so they're fixing all that, right? So, like, what it means that they will have their own building in a completely different neighborhood in Englewood, basically, like, they're going to be in literally the Lakers' old backyard, right? Like, the forum, that was, like, that is Laker territory to the core, like, deep, deep roots

going back decades. And the Clippers are now claiming it. I don't, like, it's so hard to get a gauge on how fans, line, right? And like how much momentum that gives you. The Clippers, we've talked about this. The Clippers in the nets, they're still kind of the afterthoughts in their own markets because of the iconic franchises that they're in the shadow of. And nothing changes that overnight. The Clippers aren't going to suddenly, you know, be able to manufacture 18 banners or generations of loyalty and emotional investment from a fan base. Like, you just have to cultivate it as you go.

but all of it helps. All of it helps. And that building from everything we've all seen looks like it's going to be incredible, technologically, architecturally, just everything about it. And they'll exploit it to the hilt. And it'll do that much more to help them carve out their own identity or continue to. But it's still going to come down to the basics, right? Either winner you don't.

Everybody loves a winner. And in L.A., where the Lakers are, you know, they raise banners as a matter of habit, nothing is going to actually make an impression permanently until you start winning at a really high level. So that's the onus on the clippers. And like obviously, they know that. No matter where you are, you need to win. But it's it's a higher pressure there, a higher standard there because of what the Lakers have done over decades. So that's why they need to go in with these guys, right?

Like I've always felt like, ah, you know, go in with the best roster you can. And if you've got to like start peeling guys off because they're getting old and expensive, do it. But there is a strong case in this particular situation to be made that they kind do need to go in with sparks flying fireworks going off and having all those stars. So I think they're going to go all out to make sure that Paul George stays, that James Hardin stays, regardless of what happens in the playoffs. Like, this is their moment. But back to your question, Logan, I do kind of think it's now or never on the championship thing. Like I keep looking at like...

Did I convince you? Like in the matter... Because I hit Howard like last night. I did. I did. Okay. I did. So, all right.

Three things here. Three major issues here. One is age, obviously. Paul George turns 34 in May. Kauai is 33 in June. But Kauai obviously is like an old 33 with all the stuff he's been through. Hardin is 35 in all. August, and he's got a lot of miles on him. Now, he's not somebody who relied on a lot of

explosiveness in the course of his career. He can be effective for a long time, but still, Westbrook, if we want to put him into that, he's 36 in November. So they're all in their mid-30s. Paul George has played 57 out of 63 games this season. That's his most since 2018-19, before he became a clipper. Even when you consider the COVID seasons and adjust, you know, percentage-wise, like, Paul George is going to have played by far more of this season than he had any season in five years. Kauai, also 57 out of 63 games. His most since 2018-19, when he played 60 in Toronto.

Remember, the year they won the championship, Kauai Leonard, that was the first year of load management, Kauai Leonard, he played 60 games. His last time that he played over 70 games was in the 2016-17 season. I think it's safe to say Kaui Leder is never going to play over 70 again or maybe even come close. So, like, if this is the healthiest you've ever gotten from them, and it is in L.A., what are the odds that you're going to have another season where

Paul George and Kauai Leonard both end up playing, you know, 80, 85% of the games. So that alone. Not good. Yeah, that alone is an issue. Then you have the free agency stuff, right? Paul George is not signed yet. He can opt out.

Hardin is a straight up free agent. Westbrook has a small player option. He can opt out. Kauai's extended, but, you know, that cuts both ways. He's extended, but he's extended through 26, 27, at $50 million each of the last two years. years, which brings us to this. If they all stay, how expensive is it going to be? They're going to have cap issues, tax issues, apron issues, in addition to the age and health issues. And then there's

the last piece of this, which is simply that the league doesn't stand still. Denver's not going anywhere. The Thunder and Timberwolves are both young and on the way up or already up and talented and not going anywhere. Whatever you make of the Pelicans, Mavericks, Kings, they're all good enough that a piece or two here or there is going to make a difference and keep them in contention. Memphis, we've all just kind of forgotten about because John Morant's missed almost the entire season, but Memphis is going to come back. Like there's too much young talent. They're not to be really good.

And, you know, the Spurs, you know, they're going to start rebuilding around Wembe pretty quickly. And Wembe is already one of the best players in the NBA. So there's just, and I would, by the way, I'd apply all that same standard. everything I just said also applies to the Lakers, the Warriors, and the Sons, who are also teams that going forward, like, they might be in it for another year or two, maybe, but they've all got that same slim margin for error that the Clippers have, where you've got age and payroll concerns and health concerns.

It's just things, you know, the league has got to flattened out. There's an opportunity now, but I don't think the Clippers window is very big. Yeah, it's interesting because you talk about all those things, but I keep thinking about one man. And that's Steve Ballmer and the impact that he has made just in transforming this team, right? Like that, he bought them in the, in the midst of the, you know, the Lob City era, which was also mired in, you know, previous ownership that, you know, has been well documented and how terrible that was under Donald Sterling. but when I think about what Steve Bomber has done with this franchise, I think this team has had a winning record in 13 straight seasons, which is a great feat considering I think every once in a generation,

they would have a winning record previous, right? What has been his impact not only, and I'll start with Howard, on not only the Clippers, but the league at large to this point. What is he done in your eyes? And how can that kind of transform into this new area clipper basketball? Yeah, I don't know about bomber's impact on the league at large. But in terms of the clippers, look, the bar was extremely, extremely low. When you're the new team owner, a majority owner replacing a documented racist

and all around despicable human being who also, just as a basketball matter, was a terrible, terrible steward of that franchise, wouldn't spend cheap as hell, treated people like garbage. Like, there's just so many other ways. Like, the bar was just extremely low. But even if Balmer had replaced your, you know,

garden variety NBA owner, um, like, we've seen it, right? It's comical, his enthusiasm. But that shit's real. And, and it, and it, and it,

it matters. I did a story. So I think it was in 2018. I went out to L.A. to do a store in the Clippers and about the fact that they were in position to try to go get for agents, right? So this is the year leading into when they finally got Coisle Leonard and Paul George. And they've never been in this position before. They've got bomber and all his energy and all his deep pockets. They've got this scrappy team that's playing really hard and overachieving. You know, all these good vibes going on. And so I went to go to a story. for Bleach Report at the time about kind of the whole through line here from Bomber to Doc Rivers to this scrappy team and what what that was situating them for. And I got some time with Balmer.

And I was asking about like, so, you know, what's the pitch, right? Here you are. You're in this market. The Lakers are dominant. They've been dominant for decades. The Clippers have no real history to rest on. And you're trying to get superstars to come here. And, you know, that's the summer right. That's not just the Kawhi Laird or Paul George summer. That's the Kevin Durant. Kyrie Irving summer. And I can't remember who else was in play that summer. But it was a, it was a stellar class. And bomber, I almost like fell out of my seat. We were in one of those little bunker suites in the arena, some little private room. And I, he was like shouting, but like in that bomber enthusiasm way where he's just like, he's just so worked up about how excited he is about the future

of his franchise that I, I swear I like nearly like flew backward off like the bar stool, uh, into like, you know, a couch 10 feet behind me. But he was basically saying this whole thing like, it was like a challenge. He was talking to me as if he was talking to the free agent. Do you want a legacy? And he's like, slam at the table. You can get a legacy.

You come here. You'll get a legacy. No, no, whatever. It was this whole thing about building a legacy because you would be the first. He was for the suit up. He was for the suit up. I was ready, man. I was, I was ready.

I pulled the. That was the pitch that I got, I'd got, I sold to Howard to get them all real ones, Raj. that was your piss. You're ready to roll you. You're ready to go.

I still have the recording somewhere. I should have queued that up to play it back. But it was, but it was, it was awesome. And it was like you,

like, that his enthusiasm is real. The energy is real. And it certainly made an impression on me in that moment. It clearly made an impression on, on some players.

And I just think that, Rajah, you tell me, how much do players, think about the owner when you're going to a team and like it's different for you that it is for a guy

at you know, Kauai or Paul George's level obviously but you're putting your career and your fate in the hands of not just that coach or those teammates but an organization and whether or not you trust them to do the right things more often than not

and you trust them to spend and trust them to actually care about winning because there's plenty of owners in this league who don't actually care about winning. Like that's just the truth. So like if you're a free agent and you said it's Steve, bomber and you see that whole thing and you might you might look at it and go like all right it's a little

over the top but like does that overall make a positive impression are you more likely to want to pick them um i would purely speculation because i was the kind of free agent where you know i owners didn't really concern me you know you were just going to go wherever they offered the most money and we needed the contract so um but yeah i think once you get to a certain level of player and and there's a partnership between you and that owner and that you hope was going to bear championships, you know? And so knowing that they have a vision like yours and that they're passionate about it

and that they're invested in it, not just financially, but kind of emotionally, and they love it in that way. I think it does mean something to players like that. I always referenced Mark Cuban because I played for Mark Cuban and he was a very hands-on, passionate around the locker, around the game like kind of presence. I didn't have any other owners that were that invested,

but that energy was real. To your point about bomber, like you could feel that. You knew how much it meant to Mark. And if it meant that much to Mark, and he was willing to spare no expense to make sure that your basketball life was, one that could, you know,

get you closer to that championship. And you knew that, you know, that was his priority. Well, shit. Like that, if you're not all the way invested as a player, you know, that just helps you that much more, right? Like it means something to him. It means something to me.

And for those dudes at that level, they're looking for a partner like that. So I do believe that it would mean something. Now, you know, if there's another guy like that, I don't know. I don't know how much it sways their decision making. But I know for a fact that having a guy like that when you're in a quest for championships and you're that level of player helps tremendously. you know, as opposed to somebody who's just writing a check, they don't really care about it. And this is just kind of a write-off for them.

Well, also, like, with the Clippers, and we think about just the new ownership. And you're kind of going through that right now with the Phoenix Suns, Roger with Matt Ishpia, who's, like, trying to inject a new energy into the franchise. Like, how important is that when a new, like, how important is that for a new owner to be able to do that? And to, you know, kind of bring the franchise. franchise back onto its feet in that way, like when he's bringing guys back or when he's showing that energy to want to win championship.

And it's one thing to come in and, you know, Ishbia has gotten criticized for this. But like, I'm going to be all in. What does that do for both the players in the building and even the alumni outside of the building that are saying, oh, I feel a part of this now? Yeah, well, I mean, it's huge. We've talked about that before in terms of having, you know, some of the best players. of your franchise's history feel like they're connected in a way that that that brings back a fan or two that that that relates to those players like matt's done a tremendous job with that like it's been the amount of times i get a call from from seola with the sons or someone

looking to get us back for for for some reason or another and just connecting us you know to the to the team you know it's pretty remarkable seen as though i've been on so many teams and i really get that from any other organization but they've done a great job that. And, you know, I think for the players that are in the building, knowing that Matt cares about it like that, I would just say again, we, look, this is our job. We care, obviously. This is how we feed our family as players. But when you're on certain teams and they're not great, you know, we're humans too. Sometimes it just becomes a job. Like, while you're out there competing, it becomes a job, right? Because it's 82 games. Like, we're probably not going to

win a championship this year. We're just kind of checking boxes, trying to go out there and be the best player we can be, but that drive, that passion, that fuel to win the championship might not be there. Now, we might not be a good enough team yet to realistically think that's a possibility, but when the owner is always on that vibe, I mean, it helps in the locker room for guys to be on that vibe, even if we're not there yet from a talent perspective, maturity perspective, ultimately like filling out the roster in the way we need to perspective, that's what we're here and every day. That's what we're seeing him do every day, is comport himself in a way that says, trying to win a championship.

And I always say this. Organization's leadership, it starts from the top. You know, so when those guys are in their champion in that and they're living by that and they're, you know, they're demonstrating to you in the locker room and everyone else within it that they'll do whatever they need to do financially or within their power to make that a possibility. I think that does mean something. Yeah.

Hashtag get Roger back to the desert. Say a quick break. Let's say a quick break. and we're going to talk about one of Rogers' favorite subjects. Refereen of Bex. FanDuel is putting the ball in your court for the rest of the NBA season because right now new customers can get $200 in bonus bets with any $5 bet. That's $200 if your team wins.

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Little defense. Mavericks Bulls, think I'm going to take the over on that one. Warriors Spurs. You know what? I think I'm going to take the spurs in the upset. Warriors have been playing good lately. Raptors Nuggets.

Think I'm going to take the under on that one. Celtics Trailblazers. I think I'm going to take the over and points for Jalen Brown. And the weight is over. North Carolina. FanDuel is officially live in the Tar Hill State. So visit fandual.com backslash Ringer MBA and make your first bet a layup.

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We just had a very, very, very entertaining, what would you call it? A maddenay or whatever. a very entertaining intermission talking about what we're going to talk about right now. I'll just start it up. Rudy Gobert got fined $100,000 for suggesting the refs were influenced by money. Basically, after he got called for a loose ball file late in the Timberwolves Cavaliers game, he flashed a money sign in a direction of one Scott Foster and then got fined a whole game check. Gober said in an interview after the game.

that he thought gambling, you know, the influx of legal gambling in the NBA, it's hurting our game. And I know the betting and all that is becoming bigger and bigger, but it shouldn't feel that way. According to the AP, the fine was the highest possible fine that the NBA could give under the new collective bargaining agreement that took effect last year. The NBA said in a statement that the fine takes into account, Gobert's past instances of contract detrimental to the NBA with regard to public,

publicly criticizing the referee. Raja, just what are your thoughts on the whole situation? Let's just go right there. Let's just start right there. What are your thoughts on the situation? I mean, yeah, look, the NBA cannot have Rudy Gobert associating the call on the floor with a point spread or gambling in any way, shape, or form. It is, I mean, and the list of.

of things that would be catastrophic to the league, it's up there if they were ever able to draw clear lines. And to make matters worse, it's Scott Fing Foster. So if you remember the Tim Donaghy whole fiasco, like Scott Foster was one of the ones that Tim Donahey was having hundreds of conversations with on game days. So he's already very close to that in a way that's probably very uncomfortable for the NBA. So Rudy does that. It's a no-no to begin with. Scott Foster's the dude who he's basically

accusing of doing something for a point spread. Like the NBA can't, they've got to do what they did. Look, I just sit here watching the play. I don't know how egregious is call it was. I'm not here to throw shade at the refs in any way, shape, or form. I know this. The NBA cannot afford.

to have any more accusations or damn near provable cases that refs are not out there with 100% league integrity in mind. And so anybody that says something out of line to that point,

you know, they're going to get the full, they're going to get hit with the full scope of justice that the NBA is allowed to come down on them with. Howard, how much of just building on what what Roger said, and he didn't go as hard as I thought he was going to. I must say, I wasn't what we were. I gave you a, no, I'm just saying, I gave you, we just, be it Howard basically, after what you said over the intermission, me and you just basically gave him, said, go one-on-one cook.

I know, but what happened was, you guys saw my reaction to Scott Foster, right, in fairness for the people that weren't, you know, privy to the reaction. My reaction to Scott Foster wasn't probably exactly what you thought it was. Like when you said Scott Foster, then I'm like, oh, yeah, hell yeah, they got to, they got to distance themselves and really come down on Rudy Gobert because he's too close to what happened. But it's important to know. Roger, it's important to know. And like, I don't have like the chapter and verse here.

I didn't Google it before we started recording. But the NBA has fined guys for the money gesture before. This is a no-no. Everybody knows it. If that had been Scott Foster, if that had been any other ref in the league, I understand what Roger is saying about the heightened. sensitivity because of, of, you know, the Donaggy

case, because Scott Foster happens to be a lightning rod in general with a lot of players, coaches, and fans. He's also one of the best referees in the NBA and will almost certainly be reffing the finals again as he has a billion times. But this is

a standard applied to any game, any player, any refereeing crew. The NBA is fine guys before for this because as much as the NBA is sensitive to criticism of the officials, right? There's certain things like, you can say, you know what, I didn't think they called it both ways tonight,

you're probably not going to get fined. But if you say, you know, there was no way we were winning this game because, you know, we were up against, it was eight on five, you know, you can't say that. You can't say the refs screwed us. You can't impugn their integrity in a way that suggests they are corrupt.

And when you start making money signs like this with your fingers, both hands, very, very obviously, overtly, you're saying the refs are on the take. Like, there's, you, there's, there's no, you, you cannot downplay that. You cannot classify it in any other way or explain it away. That is a very, very clear implication that money has influenced your call. You're calling them corrupt. You're, you're now accusing the referees, if not the entire NBA, of a criminal enterprise.

I'm reminded of this is a long time ago David Stard was once sitting at a table with us in the press dining room at Staples Center he used to do this sometimes just shoot the shit. It was always on the record and so this is you know it's covering the Lakers this is back in I looked it up real quick

it was in 2000s so this is not regarding that King series that people obviously often fixate on so this is in the middle of like a Lakers' sons playoff series it's in May of 2000 and Bill Plashky, our buddy from the LA Times, says something to Stern about, what do you think about all this chatter that, you know, people saying, like, the league favors the Lakers because everybody wants to see Shaq and Kobe in the finals and they're good for ratings and blah, blah, blah, blah, and so they're for the league, make sure that they advance.

And this was Stern's, I remember how angry he, like, I thought he was going to, like, leap across the table at Plashky. Stern says, quote, what somebody is saying is, you're a crook, you're committing a felony. when people who are serious members of the media utter that, they're ignorant. So, like, that was, like, I never got that felony word out of my head. Like that, because literally he's right. If you're saying that this is all corrupt and the refs are on the take or now you're bringing gambling into it. And again, I get it. The league invites added scrutiny and concern with how, you know, entwined it is.

And all leagues are now with gambling. But yeah, you're basically accusing the league and everybody involves of a felony, if not worse. Well, let me ask you a question. Because I agree with everything. I mean, I agree of everything you just said. Like, you have to do that if you're the NBA. Who else has been fined for the money gesture? Because I'm ignorant to that.

Like, who else has been fine? I think Luca for sure within the last year did the money gesture and got fined. Rudy's was $100,000, which is the maximum because it's in the statement from Joe Dumars, Rudy has a history of That's bullshit. That's famous. Hey, Joe Dumars and everybody else in the NBA, I don't do this a lot.

They're full of shit. On which part? They're all full of shit because they levy those fines and use the verbiage and the language whenever the hell it suits them. And they flip it up. They did it to me. Like, I was tell the story again.

I was suspended for a game by the NBA, the same people and I ain't calling nobody, no crooks or and I'm not going to get into all of that. But you can miss me with a little bit. bit of that shit, Howard, because I was suspended for them not being unequivocally sure that I did not try to kick Andre Barney. That's what they said to me. Andrea Barney said I did not try to kick him. I told them I did not try to kick Andre Barney and I didn't kick Andre Barney. Then Bruce Bowen clips Amari Stadamire on his heel from our perspective as the Sons, whether he intended to do it or not.

It was clear that it happened. We sent it to the league. We asked for something to be done. I was shown the clip by the brass with the sons. What they came back to us with was, and this is why I say it's all bullshit, we couldn't be sure unequivocally without a doubt that he did try to kick Amari Stademeyer. And so for that reason, we won't suspend him. So when you start doing that, you lose credibility with me. I got no beef with the league.

The league was great to me. But in those matters, they lose credibility because they will talk out of both sides of their mouth in a way that should have you lose credibility. I'll just tell you. So the statement from their, or this piece of the statement about the fine for Rudy Gobert being 100,000, the fine, this is the NBA's press release, the fine takes into account Gobert's past instances of conduct detrimental to the NBA with regard to publicly criticizing the officiating. So this was, they're calling this cumulative effect in terms of how big the fine was. So I'm not mad at them protecting the brand at all.

I think, like, again, I would say I started off by saying you've got to find Rudy Gaubert. Maybe it's just coincidental that it was Scott Foster, but I do think the closer you get to that, the closer you get to that, like, the more uncomfortable it makes the NBA. I don't think that's debatable, right? Like, we could be saying that it's not because it was Scott Foster. And I will agree with you on that, Howard. Like, if there is precedent for them finding with the money sign and you're going to tell me that we believe without a. doubt that it's an escalation with Rudy and so we've really got a curb because I've been on here saying in other instances with with with with Draymond and other people that if his if it continues

to escalate then we have to continue to up the punishment in a way that curbs behavior right but I don't think there's any denying that if it's Scott Foster it's more sensitive to the league I think both things can be true and you know like I would just say that the NBA to protect their brand they've done a very good job of when things like this happen and things come up and people are accusing or like even with Eric Lewis recently and there was a little uncertainty around what was going on with him like they part ways very quick because they can't they just can't have that and I respect that I got no problem with that. Rosel. Excuse me. How much of an impact in a shadow did the Donahey allegations put on this league in that way, right? because when I'm listening to you guys talk,

it seems like reputationally ever since then. And obviously, you guys are a lot older to me have seen this. This is why I'm asking the question. It seems that after the Donahy allegations, that the NBA has had to go above and beyond to bring back, to bring back their reputation both from the public and, quite frankly, Roger, guys like you who do feel slighted when things have gone on. And actually have something to point to.

to when it comes to, you know, how the league has allegedly operated in points in this in their history. But with the Donahey's shadow constantly on them, how much does that, you think, play a part into how they discipline players and how they discipline just team, league employees as a whole? Yeah. It's a big question. First of all, I don't, I don't, I don't really feel slighted by anything to happen with Donahe here or anything like that. I'm just here to tell you, like, when they, when that league, wants something to happen, they will rationalize to you and find some language and some kind of rule to support what they're going to do. And it might be, you know, giving you the benefit of the

doubt for one player. And they'll come back and use the exact name argument, not giving another player the benefit of the doubt. That's just what it is, right? As far as the Donahey situation goes, you're talking about a brand and a business that is, I mean, so big and we and it's it's it's it's that way because you know for a lot of reasons but ultimately you know it's consumed you know as entertainment but it's a sport like you think it's a meritocracy you think the best you think the best team anything that puts that in jeopardy the fact that the best team would win or the best player that night on the best team would win like anything that makes that feel like it's not happening puts a lot of stuff in jeopardy and you just you just

cannot have that and you know you add to it now that you know the gambling is a big part of the revenue that the NBA participates in and whatnot. Like, you can't have that. And I'm with that. I would, you know, as a player, right, when the Donahey stuff happened as a player, I'm sure there were other people like me that had played that would flashback. I mean, when that broke, the picture in the USA Today was Tim Donahey, from the the front whistling a foul and the camera's kind of like at him, I think. And behind him in the

picture, I'm like chasing him down with my hands in the air like this because, you know, I remember the play. I watched the play. As a matter of fact, I watched the Donahey documentary on Netflix, I think it was, where the play is actually on there. Like Manu Genoobli goes to the basket. I see a big, kind of help me at the basket. So I let Manu Genoobli go. Like just let him go. And he goes up and shoots some wild shit and Donahey comes in and calls a foul. And I was just baffled. So Steve Nash and I have talked about like a game in Denver where we couldn't understand like all the calls that were being made.

It was like a three or four overtime game where all kind of points were scored. It was Donahe. So we have those moments. You never really feel like you were slighted. But if I'm being honest with you 100%. Like, I've heard what Tim Donahey has tried to tell people since then. Like, I've heard what he's come out and said. Nobody ain't trying to listen to him.

And I personally am like, well, I mean, where there's smoke? Like, why ain't we trying to hear what buddy's saying? Like, all of a sudden, like, he, nothing he has to say is valid. And I find that strange, you know, but I don't work for, you know, an NBA team or the NBA or anything like that. And I'm not accusing anyone of anything. But when you're asking me as a former player who could feel that way as soon as that Donahey knows, bro, and then Donahey's trying to say, hey, bro, it's bigger than me. Like, there's more shit going on.

And ain't no, they're trying to just kill that at every turn. Like, every time that man tries to open his mouth, someone's trying to shut it, then I'm, then I got a wonder. Howard, when I get all the things that, that, that, that Roger is saying on here. But the thing that keeps coming up in this podcast is the influx of, And even when Gobert said it at the top of when we referenced it is the influx of gambling in this sport. And not only this sport, just the influx of gambling right now and legal sports betting across the sports spectrum, right? I mean, that's the big reason why we just had the in-season tournament in Vegas, right?

They are, these leagues are trying to capitalize on all of the money that is influx that is coming in from gambling. how do these leagues continue to keep their credibility while this this element is coming in and we're having all these things right because that connects us to Donahey that connects us to the NBA's future that also is can be a slippery slope for where everyone else is gambling but the players can gamble on these things but the players what kind of element can that bring in not only into the NBA but this into sports at large and how to How do these leagues keep their credibility? I mean, it's a much, much bigger discussion than we have time for here today. But I mean, all the leagues have gone down this path, right? That they've invited this in. They have embraced it. They have welcomed it.

And there's going to be a downside. Inevitably, it's going to happen, right? Hasn't the NFL already had like a couple gambling scandals pop up? Yep, yep. With players, though, right? No players. Yeah. With players.

Yeah. Players. Yeah. Nothing with the NBA so far. But, I mean, it feels inevitable. It's going to happen. That's not saying anything negative about the NBA or anybody else. It's just like when there's that much money at stake and whether it's, you know, players, coaches, trainers, staffers, media members who might have inside information and bet before tweeting or bet before report.

Like, there's, I get, it's, it's all really fraught. it's all really fraught what i can't say with the mb a is this though the donagy thing obviously caught them flat-footed and you know it's it's 17 years now since that happened i think was 2007 if i'm remembering right um they immediately like completely you know tore down and rebuilt the entire like a fish eating program like they they've had many different people lead that program since uh their security arm and the NBA has this whole, like, you know, very complex security arm, all of their procedures for monitoring referees. And now, of course, pretty much everyone in the league, especially now that they are, we are in a gambling era where it's legal. There's just a lot more infrastructure there now.

Now, that may not be at all reassuring to some people. It may not be reassuring to Rudy Gobert the other night. But I, all I can tell you is there was, insufficient, clearly, by definition, insufficient infrastructure to catch what Donagie was doing back in the day 17 years ago. And the way that the NBA runs that program and their own internal security and all of their monitoring is much, much more extensive now. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen. I just think that it's much less likely for it to happen. I got two points. I agree with you 100 percent, Howard. One, and this is you talked about, like, it's inevitable that someone's going to gamble.

It's even more so because we're dealing with a generation of player that comes up with gambling at their fingertips in a way that my generation didn't have. Yeah. So like my sons, my son comes home and he's talking about his buddy's gambling and asking him on the NBA, like who to pick in a parlay. He's in a 10th grade. And I got to have conversations with him like, yo, bro, do not, don't even get started. Like, don't touch that. You know what I mean?

because the intersection is not, it is not, it's not going to be pretty. So leave it alone. But because so many people gamble at such a young age now and or exposed to it from, you know, helping their dad or their uncle or whoever's asking them for, you're going to wind up with them. You know, it's just what they do. It's part of their life. So it's far more likely that it will happen. The second part would be, you know, I'm not backing track. I'm not going to backtrack of anything I said just because it's the way I felt. And it, it, it, for me, it's true. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, accusing anyone of anything, right? But I would say that it's far more likely now that there's a ref out there where Rudy probably missed with the money sign. Like, I don't really believe those

dudes are gambling on games. I think it's far more likely that if anything's going on fishy with a ref, that it's tied to maybe personal stuff, like human element. I don't really like a guy. Like what Chris Paul has accused Scott Foster of, and I don't mean to make this guy, I have no problem with Scott Foster. But I think it's far more likely that there's stuff like that that happens. than dudes that are actually out there trying to sway a game for gambling purposes, if that makes sense. Because that is a human thing. Like, we've all been in a game, whether it be basketball or football or anything like that.

And you get a ref and you're like, oh, not this. Not this. And then he's looking back at you and you get the look and you're like, oh, shit. It's going to, it's on, you know? And that, and that's a thing. And you're never going to be able to get rid of that human element and that dynamic of personalities that just clash, little bit and they rub each other the wrong way. And at the height of competition and,

and, and adrenaline flowing, you get that little ember, that little spark and, and, and now, you know, something's popping.

That's going to be something interesting to, uh, to, to look forward to, you know, just how this all evolves. Um, Kerm,

what's up, bro? It's time for, uh, you know, it's Monday. So it's time for our MF and mailback because we have Howard motherfucking Beck here.

Um, How you doing, Kerm? What's going on? I'm good, I guess. Let's do it. Oh, okay. Everybody's somber. Wait, wait, wait. Everybody, the whole pot is somber now. Kerm, you're all right, Kerm? Are you good, bro? I'm good. It's just Monday morning. Like, what you want from me?

All right. Kerm, also on the West Coast. We always talk about this, man. Being Kerm, we're just like just trying to get out of bed, just scratch with the sleep out of our eyes and Howard and Raza come in all chipper. Hey, guys, how you doing? It's almost 1 o'clock. How are you guys doing? Craziness, man. I didn't even take off my du rag this morning.

Let's do it. Let's do it. First email is from Charles. Is Derek Rose a Hall of Famer? One-time MVP, youngest MVP, best player on the best team going 62 and 20 and 2011. One-time all-NBA. First team, three-time All-Star, two-time Fibba Gold medalist, rookie of the year, rookie team honors, NCAA championship appearance.

and multi-time All-American. What do you guys think? I'm going to just keep it short and sweet. I'm going to say probably not. Yeah, I'm not great at the Hall of Fame debates, man. Honestly, it's not my wheelhouse. But I think was on trajectory to certainly be that. But I would agree with Logan that it probably got derailed a little too early.

He has like a BoJackson case. You know what I'm saying? Where it was like just a really great start to the career, had like a really was, had an element. element on the floor, because you know, he had a lot of off the floor issues that are well documented, but I think on the floor, he was a guy that was an element of what we never seen before, just athleticism at that point guard position. And then when he developed a three point shot, he was just even more lethal. But that, those knee injuries really caught up with him. And he did come in the backstretch of his career, where he became this, this really good glue role player guy. But I don't think he has that case because he didn't sustain it.

throughout his career. There's something to be said about sustaining production and into a Hall of Fame career as opposed to just having a really, really great start, which I think is what he had. What do you think, Howard? Two things to always keep in mind when we talk about is player X a Hall of Famer. One is we don't know who votes on this stuff or how they vote. It's all a very opaque process. So I think because of that it's kind of hard to understand sometimes rationale of who makes it and who doesn't. It's very mysterious. So that's point one. Point two is we always need to remember that this is, not an NBA Hall of Fame, it's a basketball Hall of Fame. And so guys get in often on the strength of international play, Olympics, and World Cups, and college play, and, you know,

everything counts. It all counts. And so in Derek Rose's case, as the person who emailed us noted, like gold medals in the World Cup twice 2010, 2014. So does the international accomplishment in addition to his, you know, albeit brief, period of dominance in the NBA but is that enough? I still would my guess would be no but you just you just never know

we don't we don't really know how these things are done. That's a good question then I mean that's a good you know that's an interesting one. What else you got? From Ray he says hello Logan Rajah and motherfucking Beck as a lifelong

Raptors and Hawks fan from New York this season has been unkind to say the least. So my question to the real ones is, if you were the GMs of these franchises, what would you do going forward? I think for the Raptors, I think you're in good hands. So Salusieri has proven time and time again

that he can build a contender. There's a lot to be happy about what Toronto Raptors in going forward. You got a guy like Scotty Barnes who is playing really well, and a lot of people think that he can be a franchise piece. So on the Raiders, I think you're good. On the Hawks, they're in a bit more of a flux, right?

Because they got to figure out first and foremost what to do with their back court and Trey Young and do Jontay Murray. Are they going to trade them? Because I feel like they have tapped out in what they're going to be able to do, especially in a loaded Eastern Conference. I think the Hawks are who they are right now. And they got to also have a front office and Landry feels it has a lot to prove in league circles. So I'd be a bit more pessimistic on the hawk side, but on the Raptor side, I think you've got a lot to be excited about going forward.

Rogers shaking his head. Just shaking his head. Are you out on this one? Whatever. Yeah. Good luck with you. Yeah, go ahead, guys. The Raptors at least know who they're building around and they finally picked a direction.

They probably dithered for too long. They did dither for too long on how to figure out the transition from the team that won the championship. in 19 to whatever they were going to become. And they finally ripped off the Bandit, right? They made the Seacom trade. They made the N&OB trade. And so, but, you know, now there's, now comes the tough part, right? Like, you got some decent pieces back.

And Scotty Barnes looks like he could be a franchise star. And I think he is a franchise star. But, like, there's various versions of that. And how far can you take a team and, you know, are you going to need a second guy at some point? Who is that? How do you get him? Like, it's all the usual questions for a team that's young and has, you know, one really promising player and some other good pieces. The Hawks are the more interesting in this discussion because

we thought the breakthrough came a few years ago, or at least it gave the appearance of it when they make an unlikely run to the conference finals, and they have just done nothing but, you know, flail around since then. And there's been, you know, legitimate, you know, murmurings around the league that they are willing to consider a Trey Young deal. So do they trade Trey Young this summer? Do they keep Trey Young and trade DeJante Murray? Do they trade them both? There's just a just they're they're overdue for at minimum a course correction and at maximum a complete reimagining of who they are and I don't know where that's going to land and as as Logan mentioned it's a young front office they're still kind of you know you know getting there getting a feel

for it all but they've got some huge decisions to make this off season that was everything Rosal was going to say too right word we got we got enough time for one question we got No one more curve? I mean, I made an executive decision. There are other emails, but I wanted to throw this in there because I'm disappointed. Nobody brought this up. Have you guys seen the current TikTok trend that's been bleeding onto Twitter where like 15-year-olds are watching like Jordan footage? Like games from the 90s and shitting on that era talking about how Jordan had like no left and just watching the footage.

I need to send some videos to the group chat for maybe. I have seen that bullshit. Thoughts, Ross. Go off, go off, go off, go off. Clear out, Roger. Clear out, Ra. We're done with the 80s, that type of shit. We're done with this.

I've seen them do it on Jordan and like Larry Bird and all of that. I just respect your elders, man. Like, respect the history of the game a little bit, man. I would just say that I always said this when I was making, like, getting contracts in the NBA and stuff. I could never now look at a player who's making money and be, you know, like he don't deserve that because there was somebody looking at me like that. So I say it in reverse.

Like, don't look. don't look back because those players were looking back being like the generation before us. It's the evolution of the game. Like people were trained different. They had different access to today's player has access to so many advantages that that era of player didn't have that it's really unfair to draw any kind of comparison to them athletically, skill-wise, in terms of what they were understanding out there on the court. There was very little footage that a dude could just sit there and dive into.

there were really no stats to support, hey, I'm good from this area going left on the night of a back-to-back versus going right. Like, people have so much information at their disposal now that, yeah, they're going to be better. They're going to look better. They're going to be bigger, stronger, and faster. And that's fine. But that's not to discredit anything that them dudes were doing back in the day.

And if you're one of them jokers on Twitter or tiki-top or where the fuck you're on doing that, I would just say this, hop your ass back in a time machine and go see M-M-M-M-A. or Larry Bird in their prime and see what that shit looks like. I caught MJ as a 40-year-old in a wizard's jersey. The man looked like he just came off of five rumming coax, and he gave me a 27 without sweating. Try that shit. I might have a gunshots and nose.

I might need that a couple of pew-poo-poo's crazy. All right. All right, I think that's the show. I think we got it. All right. all our basically what raja is saying to all our all our uh jinsit's uh real ones let's do better guys let's do better as a community let's do better as a as a world basketball community you woke up our west coast guys here raja look look at we're awake now walk our whole game

the do rag is off for curms the day is ready to get started all right that's been another edition of motherfucking mondays there's no other way to say it um That's the magic that you can get when we do our mailbag every Monday. And make sure you tap into Real Onesmailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. I'll say it one more time. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Come tap in with us every Monday so we can get magic like that.

Just clearing out for Raja to just dunk on fools. All right. We'll see you on Thursday. Howard Beck. Welcome back, baby. To the fold. We missed you. See you guys on Thursday.

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