The Ringer NBA Show - Is This the Twilight of the Superteam? | The Answer

Episode Date: February 11, 2022

Chris and Seerat are joined by The Ringer's own Justin Verrier to analyze the James Harden-Ben Simmons trade. The conversation then leads to a discussion about the viability of teams with a 'Big Three' (17:00) and the effect the player empowerment era is having on the league and fandom. (23:39) They wrap up the pod by talking about the Mavs trading Kristap Porzingis and the Domantas Sabonis trade to the Kings. (39:06) Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Guest: Justin Verrier Production Assistant: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's help everybody. I'm JJ John Gistramski. And I'm Jason Gough. And if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire. I'm bringing the rain from the big apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm reping Shottown with my new show The Full Go on All Things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction to the local teams and guests.

Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines. So whether you're uptown, downtown, downtown, in the burbs, or a transplant. Make sure you follow New York, New York, and the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined us always by Siritt. Soie. What's up, Siritt? How's it going, Chris? It's going absolutely wonderfully. Thank you so much for asking. Today we are joined by Justin Verrier, the big homie. What's up, Justin? Hey guys. I got a chance to go and express myself on Bill Simmons's podcast yesterday and his four-hour extravaganza. So everybody knows James Hardin was traded to the 76ers for Seth Curry, Andre Drummond, oh yeah, Ben Simmons and a couple of first round picks. So that was the big news of yesterday,

and I wanted to get some of Justin and Siritt's feelings on the matter because I obviously got like a vested interest in the Sixers and this working out for the Sixers. But I also thought we could talk a little bit about the state of the super team today because with the disillusion of the Brooklyn Nets trio that played all of 16 games together over the course of a season and a half, and the state of the Lakers, I think, at least in terms of the NBA's glossiest and glitziest franchises and rosters,

they're in a little bit of a state of disrepair or at least the crossroads where it's like, you know, maybe having these three max contract, big ego, NBA All-Star names at the top end of your roster makes it incredibly hard to like navigate the contemporary NBA. So I thought we could talk a little bit about that. I want to start off though. Sir, why don't you just give me like, give me a little dose of reality? How do you feel about the Simmons Hardin Trey? Yeah, I'm not the person to bring you down to Earth.

I love this for the Sixers, honestly. I think if anything, I would go a little bit skeptical on the Nets. I have no idea what's going to happen there. But I love the fit, you know, I love the fit. I think Hardin and Bede can play like super small together and just isolate. And, you know, they'll learn to, you know, have pick and roll chemistry over time. and they can just be super versatile. And I feel like it's going to look like a kind of weird version of Hardin and Chris Paul in Houston,

where they kind of turn Chris Paul into an isolation player. It's obviously just a little bit more natural for Embed and Hardin, and they won't be getting in each other's way either. So I love it. I feel like they're going to get along too. You know, I think that's something we've got to talk about with both of these teams. But I just have this sneaking suspicion. I just be like Hardin and Embed are kind of like,

they'll co-elect. off the court. Yeah, I think that there will be a support system for Hardin off the court if you get my drift. Chris, do you hear that? You get one season together. You know, you might make the Western Conference finals and just flame out spectacular. Congrats, man. That hasn't happened for Philly ever with Dwell and B.

What is it, though, about Mori that just can get to Hardin in a way that nobody else can? If I had to guess, I would imagine that, like, he understands the, let's just say, a infrastructure that James Harden needs to perform at his best. So I think that over the course of the modern- You couldn't get that in New York? I don't know. I don't know what happened in New York. I want to get to that because I think I really want to talk to a little bit about like-

The Nets have a great infrastructure. They have a brand new practice facility. That's true. I mean, I need the oral history of what happened in Brooklyn. I need to know because like there's been rumors. There's been stuff that Kyrie Irving has since shot down. We had the spectacle of the NBA. be a all-star draft last night with Hardin or with Durant and LeBron and we can get to all that.

Justin, I was watching a, I think on Twitter yesterday. So I think somebody who's like kind of like in the orbit of Sixers Twitter. I forget who it was. So I apologize. Sounds fun. Yeah. Was just like put together a clip package and they were like, the Sixers have never had this. And it was just James Harden bringing the ball up and shooting a three.

Hmm. And that that seemed like a really low bar for something that the Sixers. Xer's could have acquired, but I thought about it, and we really haven't had that in my memory. What are your feelings on the trade? Are you ready to come back down to Earth then? Because I don't love this. Like, I don't want to say I hate it, but I'm very lukewarm on this. I feel like they just traded each other their own problems.

And for now, it kind of resets them, and we get to explore different new drama and new things with each of them. But I almost wonder if these are short-term solutions, particularly in Brooklyn, if want to just start there quickly. It's just like, I kind of feel like the Nets made the trade that the Sixers had been rumored to be considering for the past couple months where it's like, oh, this is a stopgap trade. We'll just get whatever we can just to kick the can down the road. And I do wonder if more issues are to follow. Like, for instance, I love Seth Curry, but like Seth Curry, Patty Mills and Joe Harris, it's just very much like the Spider-Man three-way

meme. It's just like, how many small shooters can you really have on one team going forward? Right. Then Ben Simmons is just like, is this dude going to be happy being essentially the fourth or fifth option on another team? Like, maybe he's just looking at this is like, hey, for the 20 games that Kyrie isn't here, I'm just going to showcase myself and like work my way to another team. And for the Sixers, like, I think they'll figure it out. Stars typically almost always figure it out, except for, I guess, Except for Brooklyn. And the Lakers. But I do have fit concerns.

Like I definitely think like Hardin wants to be more of a switcher on defense, whereas Embed wants to drop back. I definitely wonder like, you know, if there's enough space there. And I also wonder if Hardin is washed. Like that's a huge part of this. Like he's 32 years old. Definitely doesn't have the burst. And a big part of his game is actually selling the threat of getting to the rim

in order to shoot those stepback threes. And on top of this, he's been what, this is like his. fifth superstar teammate in like four to five years like Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, all the Nets. This is five. Like how do you trust anything with this guy? So how does that feel? Yeah, this feels a little bit fast. That's, that's like one of the things that's been going through my mind this entire time is just I'm, I'm having a little bit of whiplash. You know, I'm still really excited for for the Harden Kiree, KD, Nets to finally get a chance to like really string some games together. I thought they were really really.

good when they actually did get to play together. There were 13 and 3 in the games that they played with one another. Yeah. I'm still there, you know? I'm still spiritually there. I'm still, you know, game 7, Durant's foot on the line. Hardin's got a hamstring and Kyrie's out. And it's just, you know, we never really got to see the full version of that team.

And I actually would have really liked to see it. I thought they were really fun. They were pretty destructive. But, yeah, I mean, Hardens, like, got this thing where, like, I mean, it was 13 months and 16 games and it's it's weird i feel i feel like he just cuts out a little early sometimes you know i think chris paul and james hardin might have been able to work it out at some juncture you know like it's just kind of it's just a little bit quick and it kind of it's like become it like to to justin's point it becomes one of those dating cliches of like you know if the guy that you're

dating left another girl for you um because he was frustrated and he couldn't get through like the first actual problem you guys had. And now all of a sudden he's like really happy in his honeymoon phase. I don't know. Like what's going to happen in a year? I know nothing about that, by the way, just to clarify. In my personal dating. I'm going to tell you a personal anecdote. Okay. So when I was a freshman in college, I went to Temple University, which is in Philadelphia and is only about five minutes from where my parents lived.

So I had the choice between living from living at home or living in the dorms. But I was like, I want the experience, even though like, I could probably save a little bit of money. I want the experience of living in a dorm. So move in, temple dorms, first day, walk in, meet my roommate, nothing but fish CDs. He's like, I love fish. Fish is really important.

Let's listen to Fish. Do you want to go to a fish show? This is like the first five minutes. I listen to this guy's monologue, and in the back of my head, the whole time, I'm just like, fuck this. And I'm like, I'm choosing free laundry over listening to Fish all the time. I'm going home. and I wound up living at home for my freshman year.

I tell you this story because I think that's what happened with Hardin. I think that he basically got to his freshman dorm. He was rooming with Kyrie and he was just like, fuck this. And left. Now, I don't know if Joe Varden's story in The Athletic that came out yesterday, which I found deeply amusing, as did Kyrie Irving, because he called Joe Varden a simpleton, basically. But in Joe Varden story in the Athletic,

he tells this story about a game in Cleveland in January where Kyrie burned sage to kind of cleanse the visiting locker room or Cleveland as a city from like the sort of like metaphorical ghosts that were kind of haunting him from his time in Cleveland and that James quote looked at Kyrie like he had three heads now this could be gossip this could be true I don't know maybe this is why James Hardin was just like I got to get out of here but for this particular case I would have to imagine that something went so wrong in Brooklyn that it superseded Hardin's relationship with Durant,

which is what I thought was the reason why he went and got himself traded to Brooklyn in the first place. Do you guys have any thoughts? Justin, do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, I'm happy for you that you got away from the fish guy, but what did your parents say? Like, they were happy to have me back. You know, I was a pretty, I was a pretty decent person

when I was like that age. And then I think I got a little bit less manageable. I turned myself into a little bit of like a mid-period Hardin figure. Yeah. But what about all the draft picks that they shelled out in order to get you that sweet Gornland, you know? It was sort of more like when David Stern nixed the Chris Paul trade to the Lakers. You know, they just brought me back home to find me a different location.

But yeah, I mean, you can certainly blame Hardin for not having the fortitude to like see this out. And I think that maybe there was some writing on the wall when he didn't opt in or when he didn't, you know, do the extension when he had the opportunity in the off season. but I'm just really mystified as to, you know, you would say, you would have to think that James Harden had a better chance to win in Brooklyn with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant than he does in Philadelphia with Joel and beat, like just objectively, right?

Like they went to the semifinals last year. They were one inch away from beating the bucks with Katie's shot at the end of the game. And like that was Hardin playing on one leg and no Kyrie. You know, like that was how good they were. They almost beat the eventual champs. So like what drew him out? out of Brooklyn or what made him want to leave Brooklyn. And there's only a couple of candidates,

but we still don't really know who it is. Yeah, I think the sage thing is really telling. Because in normal circumstances, I think this is a situation where you just let somebody live. Like, everybody has rituals. Sure. You know, players pray before games. Or take that.

On some level, like, kind of a similar thing. It feels like if it's true, and if the look was real, it feels like one of those things where, like, it's something innocuous that starts to piss you off, once a person themselves is already pissing you off. And then you're just like, then you're just out. And if he was that level of annoyed with Kyrie on January 17th,

like that was before the nine game losing streak, right? Right. The strange thing to me, I guess, is just that it's a nine game losing streak and you're out for parts of it, which, I mean, we'll figure out how much that was real within like a week or so. And KD's out for parts of it too. I mean, Katie's out for the whole thing. It just, it feels like a moment to weather the storm, you know?

Yeah. It's just, it's just so weird, I guess. And I guess maybe that's just because we don't have a deeper answer to this. And maybe there is a deeper answer to this. But I don't know. It just, it doesn't really seem like there's a lot of depth going on. What if he's just like not a nice guy? Like, I think you might actually, yeah, I just think he's like a bad co-worker.

And which is fine, like, because he's so talented that a lot of people want to work with him. But I do think he's. going to cause a lot of workplace issues. And like, maybe Daryl just has the temperament in order to deal with that. And, like, he knows the value of that. And he's so obsessed with this idea of just getting stars at all costs that he's willing to deal with it. Because by all accounts, all the whispers out of Houston, Daryl dealt with a lot.

Yeah. I'm sure he did. The longest view in the room. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and we're going to find out the wrap on Daryl Morey's team building style is that it sacrifices chemistry for like an almost cut-throat acquisition of pure talent over not necessarily fit because I do think he gives

consideration as to whether or not like multiple guys can play on the floor together. And you know, I'm going to give him a pass on the Westbrook thing because I still think that that was that was ownership over Daryl, you know, if I had to guess that the Chris Paul for Westbrook trade had more to do with ownership and Harden maybe, not wanting to put a call anymore. Yeah. That's right. but ultimately I think that he has obviously figured out a way to work with James that allows James to perform at his best while also living the lifestyle he wants to live.

Let's just put it that way. And I don't even know really what that actually means. But that obviously when Hardin was playing at his MVP best in Houston, yes, he would have those playoff collapses. But to me it's like, you know, one of the things I think we need to correct is this idea that like the Sixers, led by Embed were on the precipice of a championship without Hardin. They were not. They are a second round out continually.

And even the, you know, whether it's the Kauai triple bounce, whether it's the Ben Simmons giving up the pass, the Thiebibble, like the Sixers were a second round team as currently constituted. So bringing in Hardin, despite his playoff baggage, I think it's just like it's ultimately going to be an opportunity for them to get past that second round. Now, the funny thing is, is that they are now, one of five or six teams in the east that I think of a legitimate, like, shot at winning the

conference. Like, we talked about this a little bit on Pillspot. It's kind of a blood sport. Justin, like, do you see the Sixers being like on the level of, say, where Miami and Milwaukee, and honestly, Chicago are right now? Yes. I mean, I definitely do have concerns there, especially after Embedd has just been dominating everyone. I do wonder, like, how much he's willing to share the limelight there, if he's expecting James to play off of him as opposed to the other way around there. But like, it's an amazing, talented big two right there. And it seems like there are a lot of those just dotting the east right now to the point where like it's really hard to distinguish them.

I guess I would default to Milwaukee just because of institutional knowledge and just the fact that they are kind of coming around of late last night's loss of the sun's notwithstanding. And we'll see what like, I guess, Sergei Baca gives them if he doesn't have another back injury where he and Brooke Lopez are both sharing the same bed in the training room. But like it's really hard to pick a favorite right now. If anything, like I almost gravitate toward Brooklyn for the same default reasons we did earlier in the season where it's like if Kyrie is playing, if Kevin Durant is healthy, like they have enough to where best player wins and Kevin Durant is probably still the best player in the Eastern Conference. Sierra, what do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think they've got two MVP type players. They've got a ton of shooting around them. I think they'll be able to stylistically play the same, which I think matters a lot more than it used to as well. When you have so many teams that have been able to marry talent and style, you kind of have to be able to match up with that. And I think they'll be able to do that. I really love them, honestly, on paper so far. I was actually curious, you know, looking back at some of the past Sixers teams, this could end up being the best iteration. Obviously, that's a hope, right? I think to me, like that Jimmy Butler team was really, really good. But I really think that they're kind of, it's for both sides on paper, if like everybody's playing and healthy, it's a great trade because

it just kind of, it allows Simmons to do what he wants to do. It allows Hardin to do what he wants to do. Yeah, they've got enough, you know, and they've got, they've got two real shot creators. So yeah, I think it's great. And also like, you know, if we want to move on to the kind of the Lakers, Nets of all of this. I'm curious what you guys think of, like, the idea of having two superstars and then being able to have super role players around them versus having, you know, a big three, and then just trying to, like, get to, like, you know, I think cobble together a bunch of minimum deals in order to make it work.

I straight up think it's better for the sport for it to be like this. I just think it's, like, better for the league to have half a dozen contenders in a conference rather than two breakaway obvious super teams and everybody else is sort of like diluting themselves into thinking that they can get anywhere. I think it's just more fun when the talent's a little bit more dispersed. We've had 10 years of these teams coming together with this high concentration of all NBA level talent.

And I think it's fun when it works. And I think it's interesting when it doesn't work on like just a straight out basketball level. And you can just see like there's obviously an inherent thing that happens when these guys all come together where there are moments of basketball euphoria like the KD Warriors teams. And then there are just like obvious like just big ego problems that happen like the KD Warriors. So I think that it's more interesting to me to have two guys on six teams than three guys on

two teams. Justin, what do you think? No, I definitely agree with that. I mean, what's interesting is when the big three formed in Miami a couple years ago and we all had to put together big three content, the more you look at it, the more it was a lot. The more it was a lot. lot of big twos and then like another guy you're shoehorning in in order to make it a big three like Jordan and Pippin and bj Armstrong you know like covey and jack and devon george just like to horace grant right incredible but like I mean there have been a lot of pretty dominant big twos throughout the course of history and I almost wonder if big three like we get caught up in like that being the number but I almost wonder if a big three is more a product of circumstance and like assets than

anything else. Like, for instance, the Miami Heat, like those guys all happen to time their contracts at the same time. And the Miami Heat happened to have the cap space in order to bring two of those guys to play with Wade, right? But with, like, LeBron and AD, for instance, like, they had to get rid of all of their assets in order to trade for AD. So that's LeBron and AD. And that's why they're like that. And that's why they have supplementary players. The Nets formed the big three because they had so much extra shit lying around even after getting Kyrie and Durant because just the front office was just so good at that. that they were able to trade for a third star.

And like, you're not going to ever turn down a third star. That's the whole point of this whole, like, roster building exercise is just to get as much talent on a team as possible. But, like, I do wonder if this net scenario is forcing us to ask some tough questions where it's like, well, maybe certain players actually do better not having to share the ball with two guys. Or maybe actually we need to consider personality and the interpersonal part of this way more than we had before. I think the Bucks are a big three.

You know, it's just about the fact that the other two are like superstar role players. Yeah, they're almost like a big one with like two B level guys. Yeah, and even though those guys get paid like, you know, like superstars, I think that they understand their role within the ecosystem of the Bucs. And the Bucks went through the Bucks ate a lot of shit over the years trying to figure out how to like be the best version of the BUD team that they could be. And there was a moment there where I think we were all like, this is it. Bud's going to get fired. they're going to have to retool this whole thing and maybe Janus is going to leave. And there were some darkness before the dawn with Milwaukee.

And now I think that we've gotten to the place where we're like just, even if they have like this kind of stop, start regular season, most of the people when you're like on pods with folks and you're like, who do you think is going to ease? They're just like Milwaukee. Milwaukee, Milwaukee. You know what I mean? Like they're just like this, there's this incredible trust in what Milwaukee is capable of. Do you think, sir, that like it's maybe not the concept of a big three, but it's more about. who those three are every time. Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

If you look at that heat team, Chris Bosch was able to take on a little bit more of a super role player role. He's the guy who had to change his game the most became, you know, a really dynamic defender, expanded his range, he started setting more screens. Like, you got to have one of those guys that's willing to do that or is already kind of designed to do that in a certain way. And also, like, I was thinking about those teams last, last night. when you look at the drama of the last, you know, 13 months with the Nets, the last six months with the Lakers,

obviously the spotlight is so much bigger now than it was then. But, you know, as you said, you guys were creating heat content at the time I was consuming. Thank you very much. It was an onslaught, right? It was from all directions. And it was, it had never been like that before. So it's almost incredible to me that those guys, like, had that, you know, finals loss that they had and like the world is crashing down on lebron and you know is is full

strow really supposed to be coaching this team and all these questions and and they actually were able to bounce back from it because that's like i think what we're seeing is that it's really difficult to do that when there's this much like yeah i think being malleable is just a lot easier when you don't have that that much of a spotlight on you you know so like that on its face impresses me but the changes that they made were were really good too and that like you know bosh took on that role more uh Wade kind of conceded that he's not the best player And role player was, that's where I think the biggest difference came, because that first year, if you guys remember, like, they're trying to, like, teach Joelle Anthony how to catch, like, the fastest passes in the world. And, and, you know, really play the five.

And then the next year, they just shifted, and they got a bunch of shooters. And then that's, like, that's how they became the Miami Heat and, like, the prelude to all of these, like, you know, amazing, you know, Warriors teams and all that stuff. but it's just kind of about being able to weather the storm I think long enough to make make changes and you know you look at the lakers fit wise like you know they had the big two formula and it worked right like you know and they they kind of I mean I don't I don't really get this with I have a LeBron theory um because I'm just I'm just trying to make sense of what's going on I think he is subconsciously challenging himself in like newer and newer ways because he's just bored and he doesn't realize it.

Could it just be that he's getting older? It could be, but like, you know, try to get like, you know, let's sign Westbrook. Like, let's play big ball. It's like, come on, man. Like, you had the formula. You got AD. Like, you know what to do from here. And they just always did something different.

Listen, I know that we're very much in the player empowerment era and like more power to these guys for just like taking all that they can. But when you take the power, you actually have to do the job. And it just seems like LeBron of late hasn't been. particularly good GM. And like Kevin Durant just seems like he doesn't want to deal with like the particulars of like navigating a big three when you have three big egos and he and Kyrie and James Hardin. And like it seems like if you want to loop in his Warriors era, it just seems like he's just not that good at like really doing the things that LeBron did earlier in his career orchestrating

his moves, but doing them with intent and with like a clear vision of like what he wanted. and the team he wanted around him once he got there. Yeah, I mean, when you, so like you can take a step back with Brooklyn. And in a way, this is pretty funny when you say it like this, but in a way, Brooklyn traded Karis Levert, Jared, Allen, James Harden, Paul Millsap, and like a varying amount of picks for Simmons, Curry, Drummond, and some other picks. Like, that's really funny that that's what wound up happening. They traded like two and a half all-stars for Ben Simmons, Andre Drummond, and Seth Curry.

Well, which side of that trade would you want? Well, I mean, obviously it wasn't like a one for one where all those guys wound up on one team. One side of that trade is a four seed in the east right now. So I don't do that. Right. So I mean, I think that you're right, Justin. Like, I do think that, you know, I was watching LeBron after the Portland loss. And, you know, he just got his ass kicked in Oregon.

Like, I'm sure he was just like, I don't really want to talk about this. But he was like, I'm really tired. And they were like, do you mean tired like emotionally or tired? Like, you know, you're tired of losing. And he's just like, no, I'm sleepy. I want to have a glass of wine and go to bed. We're in a fog. This sucks.

And I was like, right, but like, you wanted Westbrook. And Polinka basically said that yesterday. Rob Polinka basically was just like, I can't make people trade with us. Like, there's a limit to what you are allowed to do in this league. And we have Westbrook under a very, very onerous contract. And there's just going to be a limit to the amount of the people want to help the Lakers out, believe it or not. Now on the flip side with Durant, it was really interesting watching them on inside the NBA. Hilarious, just amazing content. Like one of them was sincerely, it almost like washed away

the stink of the last six to nine months with Simmons to watch this happen. But there was something kind of funny about like, so there's just this elephant in the room like that that Hardin just got just asked out to play to not play with Durant and Irving and got traded to the Sixers while also saying that he had a hamstring injury and a hand injury. And I don't know what of that is true. And I don't know what KD thought of it. And I don't know whether KD, like, quote unquote, chose Kyrie. Like, I feel like the only way we can like really think about these things are in the most high school of terms.

But I would be really interested to know whether or not Kevin Durant ever tried to be like, let's figure this stuff out. Like, we moved mountains to make sure Hardin could come to Brooklyn. We imagine this big three. Like, we can try and iron out some of the personality differences. Or if it's just as simple as. once somebody comes in the door, when the actual management part of it comes to light, when you actually have to be like, okay, this person has a problem with this today, we're going to work this out, we're going to figure out processes by which this person can do

their job better, whatever, he's just like, no, I just want to hoop. Yeah. You know, which is what he usually says all the time. You know what I mean? Like, I just want to play basketball. I just care about basketball. I just care about basketball. But obviously, like, you know, you can't have it both ways is obviously what you're saying, Justin. And I think that that's, that's an interesting part about, like, there's big threes and then there's big threes where some of the big three become shadow GMs, and then you get agencies involved and you get like a lot of power struggles involved. I mean, that's like a pretty well-reported part of this Simmons & B thing was like clutch CAA stuff that was happening within the Sixers organization. That was a little bit obviously more in the previous

administrations there. But these things actually do make a big impact on the on the franchises. Sir, do you think that if Sean Marks could do it all over again, where do you think he would have pumped the brakes? Do you think it would have been trading for Hardin in the first place? Do you think it would have been saying to Hardin, we don't care if you leave for free in the summer? Like, we'll work out a sign and trade with you, with wherever you want to go,

but like play with us for the second half of this season? Like, where do you think Sean Marks, the GM of the Nets, could have said, hey, I'm not, I'm not blanking here. Honestly, I would actually take it back. I would have challenged K.D. and Kyrie a little bit on the DeAndre Jordan point. Do you really? This is really going to be making a make or break for you guys. That's a perfect example of what Justin was talking about.

This is now Deondre Jordan has now joined two teams where it's just like, why is this dude here? He's unplayable. I'm sure he's a sweetheart. But why is he here? And it was like because we like, because we want to hang out with him in the locker room. Okay, but it costs money. It limits what we can do. You guys want shooters.

You guys want athleticism. You guys want whatever you need. Like, that is money that we can't spend on those things. Yeah, I mean, there's two points to that, right? Like, it's one thing to want a guy like DeAndre Jordan in the locker room, right? Like, I completely understand that. I also understand also just having him off the bench. You know, I think there were times that he was able to play some spot minutes against

Janus and, like, you know, throw a different look at him. I don't think he's like your guy against him. But, you know, you can catch some lobs and he's big. And you want to have just like that thing coming off the bench, right? Don't have to give him $10 million. Don't have to, like, just say, hey, you're going to play a ton of minutes. And you don't have to prioritize him over Jared Allen, right? Like, I think there's a certain point where you got to get, you got to just get to your players and say, hey, like, look, you want to win a championship, right?

So, you know, like, this guy can also, like, if we decide to keep him instead, right? This guy can, he can play alongside James Hardin. He can throw some lobs. You know, we have Joelle Embedbitt and Janus in the east. BAM out of Bio developing, like might want to have a legitimate interior presence who can play every single type of defensive coverage that we have. That might actually help us down the line in the playoffs.

And I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they did have those conversations. Maybe those conversations didn't work at a certain point. Like I think you also just got to say like, hey, well, you know what? You're signed. So we're just going to do what we want.

And you're going to get over that thing. You know, you might not get over the James Hardin thing. And I think maybe that's the same move with, with LeBron and the office. season too where it's like dude you're here and okay yeah you can say that you're going to go to another team but like we know how much you care about your legacy and you're old now and your family's in LA like are you really going to do that are you really going to do that now I don't think so so I'm like just I'm going to make a call because it's my job and you're just going to listen

and I don't know I don't know maybe that maybe that just doesn't happen anymore and I don't like so this whole thing this whole thing maybe I need to do a therapy session with you guys because I just, all of my thoughts make me feel so old right now about all of us. I'm just like, this is fast. Everyone's kind of quitting. You know, like the player empowerment thing is like, I don't know, I don't think it's gone too far. It's just a matter of like let other people do their jobs.

This kind of leads to my question that I was going to ask Justin because I was going to ask like sort of from 30,000 feet up. Is this like a little out of control now, Justin? Like we've got like, if you just had the basketball this season, you've got this incredible grisly story. You've got this like can't be killed calves team. You've got Chicago playing awesome. You've got Miami playing awesome. You've got the revival of the warriors and the the solidification of the suns. Like there's cool stories everywhere. There's interesting young players everywhere. On any given night, Luke drops 51 or just dissect a team. Like there's great basketball to be

watched. We don't have to talk about whether or not 82 games means no no single game matters or the fact that like guys set out or like the way the schedule works is like it's very rare when you get the actual national TV matchup that you want and it plays out the way you know a sports fan might expect but we've been basically held hostage by the Simmons saga since last summer you know since since since like basically summer league but like essentially like the second after that Atlanta series ended do you think that this kind of like well the NBA is 24 7 it's so It's tweets and Instagram likes and gossip and trade rumors and Wendy and Woge and like all this stuff kind of like happening in the background. But is the background the foreground and the game is the background now?

Well, Chris, if you remember after all of our big three content, we were then prepping lockout content. And it does feel like we're headed in that direction, right? I think you do. You think that. Well, I mean, I don't know off the top of my head when the next CBA negotiation or when the next opt out is. but that's typically what happens when major shifts like this happen in the league. And it doesn't take, like, well, there are only real, like, a couple teams that benefit from this era of the super team.

It's like all there's like the couple big markets. And it takes all of the smaller markets to basically get together and be like, actually, we don't like this. This doesn't benefit us. How do we like massage the rules in order to get this back into our favor for a lockout to happen for things to change? And obviously the players aren't going to want to go for that. And yeah, it just feels like, definitely from the media side,

but you could also tell from people who actually are in charge of constructing this team, just the level of fatigue of having to follow all this stuff. I mean, a lot of the league is coming down to the whims of a couple of guys. And it's just not like a way you can run a multinational, multi-billion dollar business. And it just seems like things are coming to a head. Yeah, I just, you know, the second that the trade deadline passed, it was like, is Zion the next big name to, like, ask out?

what's going to happen this summer with Beal and Willard? Like, who's next? Who's moving? Who's going to want out? I just saw that Hardin did not pick up his player option, which essentially puts the Sixers on a half-season clock. Like, no joke. Like, while there's confidence between the Sixers and Hardin that they will move forward together,

like yada, yada, the same thing he said to the Nets. But like, we could be, you know, one second round exit of the Sixers away from Hardin being, like, I'm going to take my talents to free agency and go... Or... paying him $40 million a year for the next like four years. Yeah, I mean, like, I've actually like made peace for that for, you know, like, I can't believe it, but I have. So, Sarah, what do you think?

I mean, do you think that, like, you said you makes you feel old? Does it make you feel like there's any, like, mortal threat to, like, the NBA with this stuff? A quick point on the heart and health thing, just because it's been on my mind. I feel like we're a little bit overplaying that. The guy is, is big, strong, and shoots and has a ton of skill. Like he's going to age fine. He's definitely big. Yeah.

Yeah. And I also will mention that there's been reports that Ben Simmons will be joining the Nets on their road trip. And Patty Mills was like, he's in a great place. So this does seem to have helped everybody in the ways they needed it to help them. As they put it in the All-Star selection, I think it was KD who said, I think everybody got what they wanted. And that is, I felt like maybe it was, it was like half high road, half passive aggressive on his part, but it is maybe a positive spin on everything that's going on right now. Like, you know, I'm kind of in like it, but if it's, if it's good, why does it feel so bad

placed with that idea of it though? Yeah, it's honestly, it's never really been my favorite part of like, you know, being an NBA fan by any means. And now it's all like, yeah, you hear people talk about NBA transactions and you kind of, I don't know, it really, it really coalesces with the way they talk about trading NFTs. I'm just like, are we watching the games? You know, is this fun for anybody? I don't know.

I guess it is fun for people. Well, I think it was a hugely entertaining aspect of being a modern NBA fan to participate in this kind of meta-narrative around it and to kind of speculate about what could or couldn't happen. I mean, Bill essentially like, the foundation of his, like, writing career was, like, messing around with the trade machine and second-guessing GMs. He's, like, really open about that. Like, that was something that I think most modern NBA fans and writers and, pundits kind of like cut their teeth on but i do wonder whether or not like if none of this

stuff like means anything i i don't know how you get fans to believe it means yeah i think we kind of like went on the step ladder from you know fandom being about people daydreaming about you know different players that could be on their teams to now you know everybody kind of watches everything as well. And there's also just like you could go from being a fan to now stepping into like this role of like, you know, the guys like Maury and Hinky kind of invented this where like, you know, just your average like sports fan can kind of imagine themselves in like a in like a GM role. And I think that definitely contributes to it as well.

Like I do think there's like there's a pretty large segment of fans that are very much interested in this stuff even if it, you know, Chris, I was like reading the rundown yesterday and I was like, you know, Chris seems like pissed off that he has James Harden on his team, you know, just after a day of trying to like keep up with everything that's going on. But I will say, like, if we are going to continue with this state of affairs, I feel like what we saw yesterday is the perfect solution because it kind of gives somebody like me something to do. Just watching KD try to like not be passive aggressive the whole time and then kind of come into this perfect situation where he can just shade Hardin without shading him.

Yeah. Was so much fun to watch. It was fun to watch, like, LeBron. Like, I feel like LeBron wasn't necessarily egging him on, but he was very much there for TNT, like, Chuck asking him uncomfortable questions. I don't know if Katie could see LeBron and the inside crew, because he was like staring on, like, he was like, what's, I feel like I hear people laughing, but I can't see it. And meanwhile, like, everybody else was like, just absolutely breaking down.

Yeah, no, just like the blank stare was was, was a lot of fun. But yeah, no, I think like that's it, honestly. Like, I just think we want, I want to see more stuff like that. Like, I want to see if there is going to be drama like this, then I want also like the euphoria episode version of it too. Like that's, that's it. Like if we're going to have everybody just hating each other and like, you know, James is annoyed with Kyrie. So he joined up with, with Joelle and Ben doesn't like the Sixers anymore. You know, like, then let's just, let's do a full-throated embrace of it. it because I feel like we've, we're in this weird place of half measures with the drama where we don't even really know what's going on. And it's like these guys don't really just don't really get along. And I feel like honestly, like this new generation, like, I feel like they'll talk shit if you ask them to. Like maybe not KD. KD seems to be a little bit above it. But yeah. If it's going to be this way, they should definitely have just F1 drive to survive. Like these guys should just have cameras on them all the time. Maybe that's the next generation. I feel like when Jalen Green is like inevitably pissed at his superstar like, like, you know, teammate. He will just be like, oh, yeah. What super security in the eventuality that it happens? Like, I feel like he'll just be like, ah, yeah, that guy sucked in here, the reasons why. Justin, before we get out of here, I didn't want to ask a little bit about, like, whether you felt like there, what was the most, like, consequential deal outside of the Hardin-Simmons thing that, like, would just, just, like, trade deadline reactions that if there was a, if you thought maybe, like, a contending team made themselves especially better, if there was a move maybe in the middle

or the bottom that you thought was especially intriguing to you. Can we talk about this porzingist deal? Yeah. Yeah. I still don't understand what happened. I'm still waiting to find out that there were multiple first-round draft picks that went one way or another. And I'm not really sure which way they would go in order for this to make sense. I think it matters because Luca Danges is one of the best young players in NBA history.

And this might be one of the biggest moves that Dallas has to make in order to surround him while they still have him under contract. Has he even started this Supermax extension yet. But already, like, they are forming the team. These things start early, forming the team in order that he will. will probably march on to the conference finals or wherever he gets to. And it's just, it's very bizarre to see them abort on Porzingis in such a dramatic way for guys who are okay and also have potentially just as bad of a contract. Like Bertanz is like budget Porzingis with a longer, worse contract, I think. Like not as much money, but like the length is like pretty

bad. And like Dinwiddie has been awful. And so like, I don't know, maybe they know something about Porzingis's health, he obviously hasn't been good particularly offensively. I think he's shooting in like the 20s from three point range. But like this has major ripple effects in terms of like Donchish's future and thus like the future of the title race. It's interesting, Sir, that that was a deal done by this new Mavs administration. And with a new coach and with a new GM in charge, it's not the Donnie Haralabob guys anymore. It's, this is like Nico and Jason Kidd. So let me ask you this. Is there a world in which like getting in Bertans and Dinwiddie is Dallas trying to construct a Clippers-esque multifaceted shooters and guards everywhere like line up and that they're

going to basically play five out, you know, or like four out with Powell in the middle or something like that and just like do what the Clippers did, which is like on any given night you might get 25 from one of these six guys plus Luca. Yeah, I think honestly like for them to be able to make a trade and actually get something back and not have to give up Jalen Brunson or DFS. I think that's great. Also, like, it just feels like both, everybody here could have used a pallet cleanser, you know? Like, for KP, I think him getting out of here is good, right?

And obviously, he's got the injury issues and stuff, but it's never really worked out for him. I think this season, ironically, was probably the closest it ever came. But it just feels like it's always flashes with him in Dallas. And he's ultimately just not that physical. and I think that like when you play with a guy like Luca, like you just, you want to be able to have somebody that can be in the interior a lot. And, you know, like, we'll be down to be there.

And, you know, it gives him an extra ball handler and Spencer, another guy who I think, like, you know, just got off to a really bad start is also recovering from an injury. I like him. I like him in Dallas's system. I think, you know, him and Jason Kidd should be like an interesting kind of fit together. No, but really, it could actually end up being pretty good. Like, I don't know.

Like, two point guards is always interesting. And, you know, I think Spencer's one of the more kind of believes in his own intelligence guys in the NBA. I'm kind of cautiously optimistic on the Dallas side of this. I like what they did, honestly. I think, you know, just getting KP out of there for something is pretty good. Let me, like, leave us with one mildly hot take. Kind of like the bonus deal for the. Kings. Yeah. Come aboard, my friend. You too? Yeah, I love it. Okay, I want both your takes.

We were greeted with like absolute like everybody like like flailing around because like Halliburton is such a god to like all you guys, I guess. Like that's cool. Yeah. No. I'm just saying like based on like the incredibly small sample size of one full NBA game, I was pretty impressed with how the Kings played against the wolves and I thought they were super fun and sometimes you have to like step back to step forward and I just you know they obviously Halliburton you should have like everybody's like keep Halliburton try to trade Fox like because like that's you have a cheaper asset who makes other people around him better and everything but just like they got you know they I bet that's a locker room problem over there not with Halliburton but like

they got rid of Bagley obviously they got rid of Halliburton there is kind of like this is who we have and this is who we are going with going forward and I kind of think like like all of Gentry's kind of problems as a coach aside, like Gentry with a creative big man is really fun. You know, like, and watching Sabonis from the foul line, just like fine shooters all night against the Timberlores. It was pretty cool. I don't know that the Kings are going anywhere,

but I don't think this was like dissolve this team bad the way it was kind of received when it first happened. Justin, do you agree with me? Yeah, it clarified the roster in ways that hadn't happened in 15 years, maybe. or the last time they were actually halfway decent with Dave Yeager running a very fast-paced, offensive Deer and Fox-driven system. It's just like there's cogency here that wasn't there before. And like in terms of asset for asset, I don't know if it was like a particularly like huge win for the Kings.

Like you have Halliburton who could be something way more on a rookie scale contract versus Sabonis who has two years left on his deal. But like Sabonis starting the break for Deer and Fox makes a lot of sense. and all the other moves that they made to follow that up, getting like Justin Holliday, a wing defender, which they hadn't really had previously, uh,

in the deal for some bonus and then following up with Dante D'Vincenzo. Like, I just like what they're doing there. There's like a clear vision, which is something for the Kings. Like that is like the bare minimum you're hoping for. And like they finally have that, which is fun.

Cowtown, baby. Yeah, no. Yeah. You guys are, yeah, no, they've really coalesced a whole bunch of guys who can't shoot together. That's awesome.

That's awesome. I detect some sarcasm. We should probably wrap things up. Justin, thanks so much for joining in Syrin and I today. This has been our NBA trade deadline pod. There's literally like seven hours of podcasts to listen to since yesterday. Bill had a four-parter. I'm sure Rissilo's going up today.

There was real ones mismatch, I'm sure is going up today. So tons of stuff to listen to over the weekend. Thanks so much to Chris Sutton for producing us today. We'll be back next week.