The Ringer NBA Show - J-Dub’s Shining Moment Has OKC on the Brink of a Title. Plus, Does the Desmond Bane Trade Make Orlando a Contender? | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are reunited just in time to watch the Oklahoma City Thunder move one win away from an NBA championship. They discuss Jalen Williams’s monster 40-point game that paired beautifully with SGA’s 31-point performance, before getting into Tyrese Haliburton’s injury-riddled night that left him without a field goal in Game 5.They close things out with their analysis of the Desmond Bane trade to Orlando, and what the move means in the short and long term for both the Magic and Grizzlies. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney and Wosny LambreProducers: Chris Sutton and Ben CruzSocial: Keith Fujimoto This episode is presented by State Farm. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm with the Assist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me. I feel like we need to bring the pregame introductions back in honor of the NBA finals doing the same. So we got the man in the middle, Rob Mahoney, who we got from the University of Guatemala, Biguaz.

Welcome, gentlemen, NBA finals, game five. Man, I thought the man in the middle was Ben Cruz. I guess that's Rob Mahoney these days. It's me now. I took on the job. I'm happy to be here, man. Happy to be back from Guatemala.

I know my bros missed me. I know the groupies out there missed me, but I'm back refreshed. I had a good time, beautiful wedding. One of the most beautiful weddings in my life. I kid you not. I cried about three times. Not a shame to say, not cried, but the tear ducks. No tears spilled, but the ducks definitely started to get filled up more than a few times.

So yeah, man, shout's to Sidney and Jared once again. How early on are the ters, are the ducts tearing up? So they pulled a move that I have never seen at a wedding before. And I've been to enough of these where I've seen kind of them all. I didn't think there were new moves. I thought we were just kind of remixing the old moves. Before he, before Jared read his vows to Sydney, he wanted to do something special for his deceased dad.

And he played his dad's favorite song. Wow. That's nice. Anytime I want to feel close to my dad, I play this song. And I was like, yo, what the, bro. And everybody, he was like, he encouraged everybody, get up and dance and all that. I was like, okay, this is, there's a lot going on at this wedding tonight. And so, yeah, it was just a beautiful ceremony.

But yeah, and my feelings. Beautiful. Yeah, I mean, I saw that the wedding, also the shout out for the wedding. Yes. Got picked up. Dude, can I explain what happened on there? Please do, yeah. So I shout out Sidney's wedding on here.

She gets hit up by an old colleague on LinkedIn. The LinkedIn DM. Yes, a LinkedIn DM. To be like, yo, dude, I was listening to this podcast. And I'm pretty sure you're getting married in Guatemala because you just got shouted out. And he was like, it's a big podcast. It's a national podcast. He's right.

Wow, this guy did a good job of bigging up our product. So shouts to him. I forget his name. but shouts to him for alerting the bride to the shout-out. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in.

With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need, you could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm, with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer, the billability and eligibility vary by state. Well, if that wasn't enough of an emotional roller coaster for you, we got yet another instance of that in Game 5.

I swear to God, the Indiana Pacers, like, they keep surprising you in new and fascinating ways. But Rob, shout to the thunder, closing the door definitively, and J-Dub being the one, I guess, holding the door, forcing it shut, whatever you want to say. Holy hell from J-Dub. I feel like we've said this a couple of times running throughout these playoffs. Obviously, he's had up and down moments.

He's had games where he hasn't played up to the level of a second star necessarily. And then he said games like this, probably the best all-around game of his career in the biggest possible moment. In a finals turning game five, tremendous stuff from him. And I thought in particular was like J-dub played, he scored in so many different ways. He was a pick and roll maestro all night. He was driving hard. He was cutting hard. The operative word in there is hard.

Like he just went in there with force every single time. And he was finishing and playing through people all night in a way. that, again, frankly, stars and superstars do on these kinds of stages. So by the time he made his seventh shot, ESPN did one of those weird video game graphics that they do where it's like a virtual j-dub and showing like basically his shot chart. And six of his first seven makes were at the cup, either a dunk or a layup. And one of them was a three. And so I just thought that was just so telling about the type of game that he had.

because at first, you know, he did get a lot of jumpers up and it wasn't falling, but it's not just that he was getting a cup. It was the nature of the plays. It was like in transition. It's like cutting off a back door. It's indie scrambling on a pick and roll. Kind of not sure how they wanted to cover J-dub as the pick-and-roll initiator. And him just beating them to the punch over and over again.

And we said this coming into the series. Like these are two teams who pride themselves on beating their opponent to them. the punch. And tonight was the first time I felt like the pace was just consistently. Just they couldn't get out and run. They were getting beat in transition. It just felt like OKC had all of the energy, all of the momentum, all of the just oomph, for lack of a better word.

And then I don't know, somehow the freaking fourth quarter happens in a four-point game. I don't understand this. But just before, like, I'm watching this game and I was thinking about something. I was like, you know, you ever like listening to like two or three women talking? And you think to yourself, I don't know shit about women, right? Like, hey, you guys are talking and you're like, I don't, I've been, I've been known women my whole life. I've been close to women. I don't know anything about these people.

That's how I feel about basketball watching the Pacers. It's like, I don't know shit about basketball. That's how I feel when I'm watching the Pacers play, honestly. I just want to watch Rob react to that. Just watch his face contort to see where you were going. What's to deal with women? If the Indiana Pacers are the women talking of basketball to Waz, Waz is the Indiana Pacers of podcasting to me,

where I am just being taken for a roller coaster. We're so deep into the playoffs right now. You know what up is down and down is up. I'll circle back around like so. It felt like to Rob's point that this was kind of coming, like he had 26 in game three. He had the 27 in game four. And I remember specifically Rob trying to shoehorn J-dub back into conversations

after we'd already bypassed the topic. He was that good. We get it. But this, I mean, part of it was because the Pacers had made such a concerted effort to put SGA in the Hannibal Lecter, like just jumpsuit. And so he needed to step up in order for them to get to this point. This was just unbelievable. I also felt like the fact that the transition plays were popping early, Rob,

like the fact that they were getting turnovers. And they were getting runouts as a result of that. Played into Jadab's best skills. Because as you mentioned, there's something, dare I say, Denny Avdia-esque about the way that he just kind of runs. He goes downhill. He's not like a supreme break-you-off-the-dribble guy. But he has like almost a no-break straight ahead,

no-hesitation ability to just go over to the cuff. And he was making these high finishes to, which can kind of come and go. And so he just really had everything going as night. I mean, he was super quick off the blocks, right? Like, anytime there was even a whiff of a possible turnover, he was off to the races. And that makes a huge difference when you have a player of his size and his athleticism. And when he was, like, going to put people in the basket, right?

Like, he's going up, not doing, you know, he certainly had his share of, like, off speed, slow step J-dub finishes and attempts. Like, he did some of that. But in transition, he wasn't messing around. Like, he was just going straight forward every time in that straight-line fashion. talked about Justin. I don't know about Denny Avdia-esque. I feel like that might be damning with faint praise. Danny Avdi is quite good, but he's not Jalen Williams. This is the kind of game that, to be totally honest, not a lot of players in the NBA are

capable of. Like this sort of all around offensive play, all around defensive play. He's at the kind of series where the Pacers have been like, maybe we don't want to put Pascal Seaccom on J-dub because we don't want him to have to expend the energy that would be required to deal with that kind of ball handling, to deal with that kind of force. but as you mentioned, that's fueled by the turnovers. That's fueled by the fact that, like, you can tell when the Oklahoma City defense is really on its shit, when all of a sudden teams like the Pacers just start passing to nowhere.

Like they just get stuck and they either pick up their pivot, they're sliding, their midair, whatever it is, and they have to throw the ball somewhere. And then all of a sudden it's just like to the top of the floor, no space in particular. Kason Wallace is going out for a dunk. I honestly cannot even remember how many possessions for the Pacers died on the vine, 25 feet from the basket,

never, basically like never breaking the three-point arc in a meaningful way. That's incredible to do to an offensive. This caliber, like, this is how you pull yourself this close to a title. This is how you have the kind of season that OKC had. Yeah, J-dub, just for me, just felt powerful today. Like, he just seems so much stronger than everybody today. And, you know, like, Justin brings up Denny Avvia.

I was reminded, honestly, of prime Paul Pierce. a guy who to me has some of the best footwork the sweetest feet in the history of the NBA and combined it with being just stronger than every single wing in the NBA and that's what J-Dub felt like tonight. Just special. Dropping 40, incredible efficiency

and more importantly, being the point of attack, offensive creator for a lot of this game where, you know, for the first time of the series for me, the Shay rest minutes, I'm like, if I'm okay to see, I feel like I'm breathing. then beautifully with Shea on the betch because J. Dub is on such a role.

I just thought that was just phenomenal for him to step up in that way. And, you know, I think the Pacers have been just, you know, we've said it unkillable for how long. I think there's something to OKC's ability to take a punch at this point. Yeah. The Pacers making this thing close late and OKC still just being like, you know what? I know we've had a terrible game, one finish. and we've had, you know, these moments in the playoffs

where we kind of disappointed ourselves, but we've learned from that and we're now the type of team that could take a punch and hit right back. Well, let me ask you guys this. I got a text from our friend Kyle Mann about a little development that's been much talked about with the Thunder coming out of Game 4,

which was how much J-dub and Shay were running direct screening action to set up those critical game-sealing possessions at the end of Game 4. Sounds like a fun text thread. Honestly, it was a very fun text. Well, the point that he raised was, did the Pacers kind of push the thunder into the next stage of their evolution a bit? Did they nudge them into this, what ultimately could be a really important part of their development, incorporating those guys directly together. And it kept kind of coming up in little bits in this game.

It's not something that they run a ton. Obviously, they weren't looking to set up Shea in quite the same way because J-Dub was rolling. But at the end of the third quarter, they run the inverse of that with Shea screening for J-dub to get him the matchup they won. It's like this is an action that they have been kind of reluctant to go to, or at least maybe just stylistically, has not been in their interest set. And yet they have those sorts of things in their back pocket. Like the Thunder have all of these evolutions yet to come.

And I feel like, Was, when you're talking about this is a team that's like learning how to do some of the stuff as it goes, some of that is unveiling these wrinkles that are there. Yeah, and make no mistake about it. These are AP level courses, right? Like, this isn't, you know, some piss poor competition. This is a Paco team again. Like they have been beating people up. And when they're not doing that,

coming back from huge deficits and doing it anyway. And the Shea and J-dub thing is interesting because, again, it's just about putting the defense in the bind. She gets the ball. He does a Shea thing. They swing it to J-Dub goes immediately into a pick and roll. And the defense has to make a decision. Like, wait, am I going to treat this non-Shay Gilges-Alexander action

is the primary action. And it's like, yeah, bro, tonight you better. Because if not, they're going to kill you. And that's what I think happened tonight. Yeah, I was going to say, it seems like Shea almost had like a muted 31 points in this game. And part of that was just the Pacer's game plan, just being able to focus on him and try to take him out. But he was doing so well at chipping in and everything on the fringes, both like when he did finally get the ball, playmaking for other guys. There was that play where after the J-dub,

he missed it, and then they kind of tipped it out to Shea, so he finally had daylight. And then he managed to get it to the teeth of the defense, but kick it out from under the basket to Dort. You swing it back to J-dub for a three. Like those sorts of kinetics plays were starting to happen whenever he was kind of afforded the opportunity. And then on the defensive side,

like he was getting pokeaways, like in crucial moments in that fourth quarter. And so if anything, it almost felt like Shay slotted into the J-dub spot in this one. And he could do that because, frankly, he did that for like the first half of his career. It makes it look super easy. Again, this is a great sort of disrupted hierarchy game for the Thunder in lots of ways. As you mentioned, like a lot of J-dub repetition, a lot of opportunities for him out of the pick and roll with the way Shea was being denied,

as you said, Justin. But then you also have, you know, like Isaiah Hartenstein having, I would say a huge impact, even though not a big scoring impact. And then you have Aaron Wiggins and Jason Wallace coming off the bench and having really important games for them. Chad had such a strange one because it's like, not a huge scoring game. But I want to come out very clearly about this that he had a really great game.

And I think a really great game, in particularly defensively, protecting the basket, always something that Chet does quite well. I also thought he had some, you know, while we're just throwing comps out here, did like the Kevin Garnett thing a little bit in the pick and roll in terms of guarding both guys at once, containing both sides of the pick and roll, stopping the ball without fully switching, but also getting back to Miles Turner and completely cutting off the water with that. stuff. It was just like everything was kind of there and some of it came from the expected

places, some of it came from unexpected places but the Thunder had this sort of malleable formula where they can pull guys in out of their rotation where they can yo yo their usage and it just can kind of work because their defense works. Yeah, I also think it made it easier on them on the defense because Halliburton

was clearly hobbled and we should probably talk about that because it seemed like right from the jump. There was like reports going into the game obviously we had earlier in this series. I think it was more of an ankle. This seemed to be more of a calf based on what Shams and other people were reporting. He just wasn't right. Was.

And it's kind of a miracle that they actually made this a game, T.J. Once again, just from the ashes, scoring, I think, 13 points in that third quarter. But, like, just not having Halliburton showed, I think, in those crucial moments down the stretch. Yeah, we went from what the Halley to where the Halley, honestly. If we're keeping it a thousand. I had that loaded in the chamber I had that one in the tuck I did that was in the ankle holster

No he just clearly He just wasn't good enough Honestly in my group chats The Halliburton discourse And sorry to alienate you Rob But it reminds me of the Brock Purdy discourse Where it's like we go game the game Of like

Is this guy you know what upper echelon quarterback, should he be getting paid all this money? We basically go game the game of is Hallie is superstar is he that type of player

blah, blah, blah. And like whenever he plays like this, inevitably the skeptics come, you know, howling back. Obviously the guy like hobbled.

But I thought his, whatever the case, whatever caused him to play the way that he played is directly attributable to why Indy was so sluggish

and slow out of the game. they just never had an inciting incident on offense. Like nothing to get the thunder out of their basic shell, how they drew it up game plan of playing defense. And we started to see a little bit of it because in the second quarter, this thing should have gotten away from Indiana. And it was Nemhard and Seacum and the usual suspects,

Neesmith, keeping them sort of within striking distances. And then the third quarter comes. and is T.J. McConnell, of all people, to just turning the game on its head. Like, what could have been the typical thunder, blow you out, beat the brakes off you in the third quarter, turn you over, you know, start getting in transitions, three start raining, crowd goes crazy.

T.J. McConnell put his foot in the ground and said, no, man, we're not going to die in this quarter. But, yeah, I think the Halliburton being unable to do anything at all. Like, he was a zero on offense. I'm not going to say he was a negative, but he definitely was not a contributing offensive player to the point where you might question in the fourth quarter, should TJ been playing down the stretch?

You know, it's unfortunate, but like, yeah, he got to wear this loss. He's got to wear it a little bit. I mean, look, it's circumstantial. Like, this is what happens. Guys get these sorts of injuries. You either can play through them or you can't, and you can either play through them and be effective or you can't. The problem for Tyreys Halliburton is the only way he's an effective NBA player,

or at least a high level NBA player, is when he's moving and when he's attacking and when he's at least presenting some kind of threat, he has to get you in the blender to make the most of what he can do. And if he's not doing that, and I would say in the first half, especially from the point of that injury

all the way until halftime, basically a non-factor on the game. Like, was kind of standing off to the side, was not able to do much, wasn't even looking to shoot off of the stepback when he would get Isaiah Hartenstein or someone on him. If you're not going to take that shot and you're not going to drive,

and you're not going to drive offense, you're just not doing. doing much for your team at that point. I do give him credit in the third quarter. A lot of that was T.J. McConnell driven in that frame for sure. But I also thought Halliburton came out with a totally different energy and was at least looking to mix it up and get involved and push things a little bit more.

But I don't know that he had a whole half of that in him, or at least it clearly seen that way. And this is the dilemma with the T.J. McConnell experiences, even when you get the amazing T.J. McConnell quarter, Rick Carlisle knows there's not 24 minutes of that. Like, this is a guy who has to go all out. to be that good. And so you want the controlled bursts of him causing that kind of chaos. But if Halliburton's not going and T.J. McConnell needs a blow at some point. And you, of course, I want to default back to the guys who got you there.

Honestly, here's the thing. I think they were almost there. I thought Pascal Seyakum had a great start to the fourth that pulled them close enough. Within four. Within four. And then there was that stretch in the middle of the fourth quarter, four straight turnovers, all of which resulted in either a J-dub score or a J-dub free throw or a Shays score or a Shea free throw, that's kind of the game right there.

Yeah, I mean, they even went to T.J. Halliburton late in the game. I think it's just more of a credit to Halliburton, the fact that they kept him in the game in order to try those two together. Even during the stretch where he went off, it did feel like once Shea got a hold of him and he was trying to shoot over the top of him for like 20 seconds until he got it off. It was like a clear indication where it's like, oh, that's why they don't do this as often as maybe people would like.

It's just the, I guess, not even fatal. flaw, but the one thing you could nitpick about the Pacers is so much of their success comes with like the beautiful team basketball. And if any part of that is hobble, like we saw in the previous game when Nemhurst, excuse me, wasn't out there. Like just felt a little off. You didn't have all your pieces.

The ball wasn't popping as much as it. You couldn't like execute at the high level you need to in order to combat like a historic team like the Thunder are and to not have Halliburn first and foremost is like that is the guy that's going to stir the drink to get everyone about. All of a sudden, like things are a little bit easier for your Miles Turner. who has been pretty much a career disappointment

considering how much he's been expected of throughout times of various errors in the Pacers. And so I don't know. I guess to a certain extent you could ding Halliburton, but it reminds me a little bit of the Michael Porter Jr. discourse where it's like, okay, you could ding Michael Porter Jr. for a lot of stuff, but like, do you not see like he was playing with one arm literally totally out thereies?

Yeah. There's only so much you could do when a guy, like as Rob said, needs to move and he cannot move. Yeah. Yeah, and to me again, they come out with that sluggish first half start. They make that run in the fourth. If you don't have that first half start, that run that they made is a six point lead and not a four point deficit. Right.

Like if they have their typical Pacers game, that's a lead in the fourth. And OKC's like, what the hell is going on? Yeah. Instead, it's like we make this run. We're still down four and we still have to basically have a bunch of perfect possessions with nine minutes to go. We have to be perfect on every possession. And that's when the turnover has happened. When you find yourself thinking like, no, like, we need to get a bucket.

We need to do this. And that's what a tightness kind of comes with. It's like, all right, we made our run. We kind of shot our wad here at the poker table. And it's like, yeah, I think we're all out of chips here. So, you know, but that's playoff basketball, guys. Like this team is smelling a championship. And they're in front of their insanely rabbi.

mid-home crowd, and they played like you. So they got to get the props for that. That home court is ferocious. Wonderful. To the point where Dub had a big bucket in the fourth quarter, another one of those like falling away high glass finishes. And I noticed Royce Young was like, that's the biggest pop.

This arena has ever seen. And this dude has seen every single pop in that arena, probably. So it does mean a lot. Like, this team has only lost, I believe, two games. The entire postseason, one was the Denver comeback. The other was the Indiana comeback. Under normal circumstances, they're not going to be in OKC.

And like, this is what. Yeah. And we've talked about the ways that like feeds into their style of play too, right? Like if you want a team that's going to get out on the break that way, if you want to blot out all the sound so you can pick off people from the blind side defensively, like these are the circumstances to do it. I think we're getting, you know, the merits of actual home court advantage have been debated a lot over the last few years. And there's lots of evidence to suggest that maybe it's just not as valuable a thing in the three-point era.

Maybe the variance has kind of overwhelmed home court advantage. I think with the way that the Thunder play, combined with the actual noise they produce, is maybe something closer to like a ballpark advantage where there's just like a very specific thing that plays into a very specific way the team plays that's unique among the NBA landscape. And I say this, like,

the field house is in another amazing home crowd that also fuels it's, you know, the Pacers transition game, but in a slightly different way, like there's a symbiative. here happening, I think, between the fans and these teams. It's like really fascinating for these to be the two that broke through. It's the difference between a field house

and an arena. Is there an actual field? You got to be in Indiana to have a field house. Maybe so. Really? No, I don't know. I just assumed that was a Hoosier thing. I don't know. I believe you. You got centers. We got arenas.

We got fieldhouses. I mean, fieldhouse is the most evocative by far. There's a lot of natural light in that thing. I wondered if had something to do with like the window scape. But yeah, we gotta get to the bottom of that. We gotta get to the bottom of what makes a field house a fieldhouse. Just an open concept, a lot of like floor to ceiling windows. It's very tasteful.

Yeah. Should we talk about the Tony Bradley minutes? Let's do it. Pacers Nation turned its lonely eyes to Tony Bradley, stumbling back on the court. I started God. He ran a fast break at a certain point where it looked like he was like bopping around in a Model T. He did a churro step.

he sure did. I guess if we're talking going forward, do we think that was, that the Pacers need to do anything differently, or is it the same recipe, you just got to execute a little better? To me, it felt like the Pacers came out on defense,

like a team that feels confidence that they could score on OKC. You don't play defense in the way that they did if you think your playoff life depends on getting stops in this game. and I think that needs to be reversed. I think they need to treat the offense like, all right, we will figure this out as the game goes on,

but we need to lock in on our defensive assignments and let the offense be the thing that finds itself because all of those easy baskets that J. Dub got, you know, basically not forcing, oh, because there was a couple of possessions where OKC does their thing, where Shea drives like six feet from the, basket pulls a bunch of guys in after like 20 shake around moves or whatever throws it out the case of my all right they worked for that bucket they made a three you move on with your life

next play when these guys is just getting dunk after dunk after dunk in the first quarter and like you're on the road against a team that pretty much everybody thinks is much better than you like that just can't be what happens in game six if they think they're going to have a chance in that one because I think OKC is going to be keyed up to lock these guys down and win the championship on the road. So to me, that's the biggest thing. It's sort of a temperamental thing where I get it as an offensive team and you finally got your sort of rhythm going

and you feel like you could consistently get buckets against the greatest defense since the spurs or whatever, right? You come out and you say, ah, we'll stay striking distance. We're going to ramp up our offense. I don't think that can be the mentality going into the next game. Certainly not with all of this stuff clicking. like Shea and J-dub having these kinds of games, giving up a ton of second-chance points,

you know, Chad and Hardenstein combined for 11 offensive rebounds. What do you know? But not necessarily always playing together. I think a lot of it's playing separately. And then guys actually hitting shots. You know, like Aaron Wiggins had as many threes in the first half as the Thunder did in all of game four. So the guys are finally hitting.

The supporting castes is finally hitting. This has to be a something-has-to-give scenario for the Pacers. You can't just let the Thunder get away with that much offensively. Exactly. Yeah, I think Wall's hitting those threes. I think he had three in this game. That was crucial because we'd seen him kind of be slowly, like, diminish. He isn't starting anymore.

And like a lot of his offensive game is still a work in progress. Like his hands are basically Ginsu knives at this point where just the ability to just chop away at the ball is just on another level, especially considering the other guys he's playing with Chee Caruso, all those other guys are way more experienced than he is. I think this is his second year still. but the offense is a lot of times you find yourself being like, what are we doing here? Like you're just in the corner?

It's like, all right, then you got to hit those shots and he hit those shots. It's just everything seemed to breathe and feel more natural for the thunder in a way that maybe game one was the last time we've seen this. But even then, like obviously the sour taste of the ending, it was just like, I don't know, just the turnover's there, given way to transition. Guys were hitting shots. Guys were playing defense. Like this felt like the thunder, credit to the Pacers for the first time, probably.

I mean, it helps when every fourth possession is coming off of a turnover. I just think that gives you some of that breathing room you're talking about, Justin, and it gets you out of the repetitive patterns of we're just going to run more or less some version of the same action because it's been successful for us and because that's what a pretty good Pacer's defense will allow us to run and the thing that we can get to. Now all of a sudden, there's more random offense. Now of a sudden you're getting more in the flow. Now you're getting some of those sprayouts from Shea like you outlined up top.

Those are hugely impactful plays, but they're hugely impactful because you're getting them in the mix of so many other different things that make the thunder, which can be quite predictable on offense, much less predictable. Anything else from this game?

You guys want to talk about many other little things? I want to talk about a very specific play very early in this game, like a minute and a half in, Chet drives on Miles Turner and converts not a reverse layup but a straight-up backwards lay-up.

Yeah, that was That was a throw-up, but, you know, it looked good on the highlight reel. I'll tell you that much. Chet throws up some absolutely disgusting layup attempts sometimes to the point was, but sometimes he does some stuff that's like, I just haven't seen people even really attempt that before. So I want to salute the ingenuity of, you know,

one of our long boys trying to convert over another long boy and doing whatever he has to do to get it done. Question. I, early on in Chet's career, was like, yo, he's young, he's going to get, he's going to fill, out, he's going to be a bigger player, don't worry, it's going to be cool. It's like the end of year three and he's still like extremely like a bag of toothpicks. Is this just what it's going to be? Do we think that he's 23? Okay. I also think like the injuries probably slowed him down for adding

any sort of bulk onto his frame. And I think he probably have to worry about that long term, especially as he had one. I know, what was it like just kind of his back or like his butt bone where you took that hard fall? He took him out for a little while. several broken pelvis injuries. Let's see you hit the bench press with the broken pelvis. You know, brother, I'm certainly not. I'm going to be there tomorrow. Let's go.

Let's get those big plates out. No, but it is wild. I have been just watching chat in amazement because even though he will have just like very mixed evenings like tonight where it's like he'll do something just so spectacular, as Rob mentioned, but then in the other end he'll be like, oh, you know,

still a ways to go. It's just like, because functionally, like his body looks so much like KD's, but it's almost like a test case for like what can happen if from the jump, before this kid even got into the NBA, you're like,

you could be anything, man. Like, KD was, he broke the mold, but he was basically like a bigger guy being like reared as a guard, right? It was almost like a different mold switch. Whereas like,

Chet is a big, but like if you asked me in two years what he's doing, I'd be like, I don't fucking know. He's running four or five pick and rolls to start NBA finals games earlier in the series.

with Isaiah Hartinstein, and it's not even close to what it's going to be. This guy could be miraculous in like three years. I think of any player in this series, he has the furthest headroom in terms of his potential as a player, of what he could eventually be, not just stylistically in the way you're saying,

Justin, but he could wind up being one of the best players to play in this series. He has that kind of talent in him. Now, Shea sets an incredibly high bar. Tyre's Halliburton says an incredibly high bar. These guys are really, really good. J-dub, as we're seeing, is kind of scraping higher and higher as these series go on

as he gets more and more playoff experience. Chet needs some of that. He needs some different kinds of opportunity over time. He needs to figure out, as we're alluding to, kind of like what body type he wants to have and can have while staying healthy in the NBA. He does take a lot of shots. He does take a lot of hits.

He takes a lot of hard falls. However you want to address that, that's a strength and conditioning job, not mine. He don't got to hit the weight room. He just got to drink some insurers, do the styles Pete Doug workout, Calistakes, and he'll be fine. We just got to get him on a pull-up bar, and he'll be fine.

I hope that's the case. But even in his current form, where we're having all these questions and conversations about him. He's having a lot of success. Really successful series overall, I would say. He needs a new stylist. I don't know, what's going on with that haircut, man. Oh, God, yeah. Just the, like, the bevis and butthead haircut with the Abe Lincoln beard is just tough.

The Mennonite beard is killing me, for sure. someone who had a chin beard for most of like his college run like brother no what what brought you in that world just and how did you feel about it i think it was like during the time where the red socks also had a lot of that like during had a lot of chin straps it wasn't so much a chin strap for me so much as like this the chin holder you know just just the chin oh wait just just just goate just the bottom goate and nothing else yeah i don't know what you would call that because it's not i don't know what that's called It was just the chin warmer. I think that's still a goat.

I think that's still a goat to you. It looks, if anything, more goat-ish than a typical goat-tee. But yeah, I write that for a while. Backwards Red Sox hat, let's go. That's a one-two punch. Like, those things just go. Two great tastes that go great together. Ladies didn't know what was going to hit them.

Look, I look forward to seeing Chet's style feature, you know. The world really is his oyster. By the way, ESPN did run a style feature. It's about SGA. and Halliburton what style icons they were, like, after game four. Like, it was the morning after. I looked at ESPN NBA section. It's like, what is happening here?

It's tough during the finals. Tough one. All right. Let's flip now to the Desmond Bade trade, which I'm sure nobody has heard anything about until now. What's new? On Monday night. Yeah, it just happened.

Just happened. No one has consumed any dakes about this trade. But this is a fascinating one that probably has ramifications. going into next year's final, potentially, we could talk about that. Why don't we start, you want to start with the magic side and then we'll flip to the grizzly side of things? Yeah.

Okay. Because that's obviously going to have the bigger implications for next season. I feel like we've talked about what type of player the magic are going to acquire or who they should target. And it'd always been the same conversation where it's like, they would need a point guard, but not actually a point guard,

more of a ball handler who could shoot off the catch, but also could shoot. shoot self-created and also can create his own offense and pick a role, but not too much because you want Paulo and Franz to do some of that, but also maybe too much because sometimes they can't actually do that. And at that point,

you're already working with a short list. And then you tack on the magic's actual play style, the physical defensive nature of it. And I think if anything, getting Bain is a boon, but Rob, it's also Huckham's Razor because I think he is the exact player that they would want in that exact

spot. I both understand the pearl clutching over the sheer number of picks involved. And I also would just point to this situation and say, like you're alluding to, Justin, if you are the Orlando Magic, you need really one thing and one quite precise thing. And what the construction of this deal tells me as much as anything is that Orlando looked around at your Anthony Simonses and all the other like ostensible remedies for their shooting woes and said, we just don't think those guys actually move the needle. Like we don't think the super flawed. defender who can shoot actually fixes anything. We don't think the guy who can shoot but can't handle who you may have thrown into a trade

machine at some point. We don't think he actually makes our team better. There's basically like four of these guys who shoot as well as Desmond Bain does and handle the ball the way he does and can hold up defensively. And so why not go get that guy, even if it costs you a little bit more to get it? And I think the other thing too is like once you get Suggs back in the lineup, some of the ball handling issues resolve a little bit. I'm not saying they're perfectly resolved.

but having Sugs, having Bain, having the core as constructed, this is a really formidable group that has one huge glaring problem and now one elite solution to that problem. Yeah, I mean, and Bill talked about it on his podcast whenever that trade was executed, but if you are a team who calls yourself serious, a serious basketball outfit, the Eastern Conference playoffs have been a clarifying event.

like, I'm sorry, if I'm Orlando, I don't think I can be as good as the Knicks and the Pacer showed themselves to be in the Eastern Conference playoffs. This year, you definitely looking at the Cavs, like, we're not afraid of you guys either. And so I don't even think it's like, we don't think Simons is not somebody that could make a difference. It's that we're willing to put more resources into something better.

I think that's the difference. It's sort of an all-in kind of move in a way that we wouldn't have considered the magic and all-in team before the playoffs started. It just wouldn't have felt like it made sense to consider them a team that should be considering that mindset. But after watching Indy play the way they did and the Knicks play the way they did, I respect the move. I'm always going to love the idea of like let's upgrade the roster because we think we can go out and beat the hell out of people next year.

We're not scared of Indy. We're not scared of New York. We're not scared of Boston. We're not scared of Cleveland. We're not scared of Detroit. We think we could be the top team in the conference. So I love it. And obviously, the fit, like you guys said, is everything.

And also, I think just in temperament, I think Bain is going to fit in beautifully with these guys. Now, in wingspan, not a good fit, you know? Maybe the first negative wingspan player in Orlando Magic recent history, If there's something on the high shelf, they may have to help him out. Jonathan Isaac, like, grab the thing from the top of his locker, please.

But other than that, it's like a glove. Yeah, if you were to play devil's advocate here, because I agree with you guys, the magic's window is now. And if anything, this past season was almost like a fake out to the true form of the magic where it's like they didn't have sugs to unstick them and they were so over-indexed on defensive first players

that if anything, like next season, if they just have Suggs plus Bain, it does solve a lot of them to the point where it's just like I have to stop myself for getting too excited because I'm already talking. This is like six starting five. It is. With the depth that I think supports that, even though they got rid of Col Anthony,

who I think is like a beautiful like emergency third point guard in order to, well, I think for what they need for the offense that they need, I think he can solve some issues in a regular season in the way that they have often found that they needed. but if Bain has filled in for injury-riddled teams in the past of anything, like that is the advantage of going so big money contracts for our three, four guys, is that when one of those guys is hurt,

obviously you have another guy to turn to. Bain probably does that better than anyone at this point. I guess if we're going to play devil's advocate, though, it does make them super expensive in the near future. And if anything, this seems like two sides of the same problem where Memphis was looking at this and looking at Bain and being like, well, you solve problems for us, but you aren't the final puzzle piece to complete us.

We could probably maybe take a step back and figure this out for the future, unstick our books a little bit, and then just kind of figure this out on the fly. We can get the members a little bit later. But for Orlando, like, this is it. Yeah. And while they have flexibility,

how many times we talked about, like, how funny it was that they would just sign guys to descending contract with team options. So they have moves to make. They made one today, in fact. They got rid of, they declined the team options I'm Gary Harris and Corey Joseph.

Matter of time, yeah. But it really is De Silva and Anthony Black, who we should mention that they kept around because the feeder system in order to get those low money guys to support the big money guys is kind of cut off for the foreseeable future. I mean, none of those young guys have really hit yet, other than Franz and Paulo and D'Lan Suggs, obviously.

But as you said, like DeSilva kind of got like played out of the rotation over the course of the year. Anthony Black has been so come and go. Jet Howard, can kind of shoot sometimes, can not shoot other times. This is the other problem with, not the problem, but the other thing to flag with Desmond Bain, every shooter who goes to Orlando can't shoot anymore.

It's something in the water. I don't know what's happening. Like, KCP was one of the steadiest three-point shooters in the league for five years running, all of a sudden shoots like 20% in the playoffs. Like, it's just what happens there. Would it shock me if Desmond Bain comes out next season and shoots like 34% from three? I hope that's not the case.

History tells us sometimes with the magic weird shit happens. But this is a team that's just like, I mean, they've been in the bottom five and three point percentage for five years. Like they just need this exact thing. And as you said, Justin, it's one thing if you're the Grizzlies and you're looking around saying, what is the piece that makes us get better? Is it the extra wing we've been trying to grab at for so many years? Like, is it a different kind of approach to our offense like they experimented with? Like trying to deviate from being so John Morant-centric. Like, they were grasping at so many different solutions for Orlando.

they've run into the wall and they've seen it and they've felt it and they've experienced it and they know exactly what it is and it's not having enough shooting and playmaking on the floor and so they brought in a really great shooter who can also make place and in doing so augments their two best players' ability to make place. And what I would

add to that if anybody from the Orlando Magic are listening to this podcast, I think the lessons... Yes, stuff actually is right now if you speak directly to stuff. I think the lesson watching the Pacers and the O-K see Thunder play is these guys play with a collectivist style. You guys have brought in some great

talent. You've got amazing talent in-house, but talent alone isn't going to do it. They have to develop an actual style of play that is, you know, basically involves the entire rotation. Everybody has to feel a part of it because it can't just be, you know, we're going to be these individuals who make things happen. I truly believe they have to, I don't know if it's going to be Mo's, I don't know if it's going to be Paulo, I don't know who it's going to be but somebody has to galvanize a group

to play as a group. Because I think that's the lesson that I've learned in the playoffs. Like, you're not winning big in this league on individual talent by itself. And that's probably the flip side of like the learnings from the finals. If anything,

the setup they have now, Rob, looks more like the Celtics 2.0. know, just bigger and more muscle bound rather than the teams that we're watching in the finals because they don't have a number one ball handler you can go to when the shit just stops, right? If anything, they're hoping the collective can do enough in order to compensate for that. And I don't hate that bet. I think collectively, especially if Paolo keeps progressing.

I think they will probably have enough. But, I mean, to watch Halliburton do what he's doing now, it almost, feels like they could be on the receiving end of the same situation where it's like he's, he's getting everybody involved, but they're just looking for answers. That would be the flip side of us. Yeah, they're never going to be as kinetic as a team, like the Pacers on offense. Like, they have a lot of guys who are versatile, a lot of players who theoretically can pass shoot and dribble, the shoot being shakier for some guys than others, but a lot of guys who can handle the ball and keep plays moving and advance it and like get that flow going, but there's no

means of doing it if you don't have enough collective shooting on the floor. And so that's where like, even just having someone like Bain, even when he's not touching the ball, occupying a defender, pulling things in his direction even a little bit, I think goes a long way and that way. Franz has to figure out how to shoot again. Like that's just a thing that needs to happen for this team to be good. And Jalen Suggs needs to be more consistent with the threes that he takes. Like he shoots some long balls because they're just trying to pull on the defense even a little bit. If he can be a steady shooter for them, that's a huge deal. I think in terms of the guy you're talking about, just in like the go-to option, whether it's when things break down or not.

That guy is somewhat theoretical, but we've seen it in fits and starts in moments, the Orlando Magic's most successful moments, and it's Palo Bancaro with space. Palo Bancaro with Space is a different guy. And I think part of the Orlando Magic's limitations right now are that they're feeding Paulo's worst instincts, which is when he runs into certain walls, he wants to take the 18-footer. And if you clear a little bit of a runway for him, he's going to go all the way. way to the basket. And so that's one thing you would hope with getting Bain. I'm sure this is not

the last of the Orlando Magic's moves. Like stacking shooters, getting more of a structure for this thing, you're just clearing away for your best player to leverage his best assets, which is his size and his strength and how physical he can be when he's not settling for the shots he shouldn't take. Well, speaking of running into walls, we should probably talk about the Memphis Grizzlies who seemingly admitted the fact that they had probably run into one this past season. And was I kind of found a bit refreshing that they said that climbing in the post like the end of season press conference is like

that wasn't good enough and they acted accordingly I feel like like I said before like Bain is obviously a super helpful player but considering the stage they seem to be in where they're a bit more in sorting themselves out mode rather than like ready to push the button like Bain almost strikes me more as like in the

Drew Holiday Derek White vein where it's like we're going all in whereas Memphis I think it's actually kind of refreshing to be like, you know what, don't have it, let's figure it, let's take a step back to figure it out down the road. I mean, let's keep it a thousand. Like, what about this team and its results suggested that they deserve to be invested into more? This was a team that was begging to be divested from. And so I think they did absolutely the smart thing.

You know, it was interesting to me. A lot of the stuff that I was seeing online and some of the coverage was comparing this to the McKill Bridges trade, which obviously Orlando is like, look, the Knicks kind of went all in last year. They got rewarded themselves or the conference finals, had a chance to win that thing and go to the finals. Let's do that for ourselves. I've seen people saying this isn't a good enough haul. I'm like, what else were they supposed to get? What else was supposed to be offered for this? Like, is Desmond Bay. Like, he's a good-ass player. He's already getting paid $40 million a year. guys.

Like, this guy doesn't come on a cheap. He's not on a value deal. And yeah, he's not an all-star player. I thought they got a nice piece of investment. Yeah. Excuse me, a piece of assets, if you will. Hashtag assets. I'm liking Mad Money Was today.

We're divesting. We're talking assets. Come on. Come on. This is what we do. This is what we do. I love the move, honestly. And I love the message that it sends to,

to John Morant and Jaron Jackson. You guys are on notice. Do something. Show us that you like the freaking inflated sense of self and ego of these kids, man, over the years, like actually prove something to us on the court, you know, and make us believe that this is something worth committing to long term. And so that's another thing that I love. I love the haulback.

But I love the message that it sends to the, the two last of the Mohicans of that core. I mean, this is just not a has-been team. It's not like, oh, we had it. We were so close, but then we got hurt. Like, this Grizzlies group never really got off the launch pad. They won one playoff series. And they've had lots of injuries.

They've had lots of issues. They've had all kinds of stuff happening. But they've also had a lot of time relative to most NBA cores. Like, they've gotten cracks and opportunities to try to stay together. And then they've also had to do. deal with, like, John Moran being out for the majority of a season and things like that. I think it's okay to turn the page on that experiment. I think it's okay to look at those three guys and say, between their three limitations,

we just don't think there's going to be enough here. That's a perfectly reasonable, like, place to land with those three players in particular. I think, like, Bain is in a lot of ways of the most well-rounded, like, you know, he doesn't have, like, very pronounced weaknesses as a player where Jaron Jackson and John Morant do. and so if you want to keep continue building around those guys, you have to find creative solutions and creative ways to do it.

Guess what? The way you do that is with a shit ton of draft picks, which you now have in your back pocket. If you want to leverage those picks into a different kind of player, a different kind of talent, you're going to have the opportunity to do that. If you want to put those guys on notice

and eventually lean even harder into a rebuild, I think that would be fine too. Like this gives the Grizzlies a lot of places to go. And they did not look like a team that had a lot of places to go when those three players were together, just because of their salary and because of their limitations. And it's important to actually point out those limitations.

Like, Jared Jackson, we can't tread water with you at the five. The rebounding is not good enough. It's just not good enough. It's not good enough. You're just not good enough at the five for us. And so we got to supplement that with other pieces, even though at times, you know, people that I'm friends with once called in the next Tim Duncan, which is just like, you know.

Are those people in the room with us now? Are they us? Did you call him the rock Next tip, Duncan? I didn't go that far. I'm like, I'm a fan of his game. No. I think Jerry Jackson's really good,

but his inability to transition into being even like a reasonable, workable part-time five. That's what I'm saying. Like, not even 12 minutes a game. Like you can't play this dude at the 5 and then his job, which of course we know is the shooting,

the injury and, you know, the off-court stuff. These are like major. And the decision-making. Like, well, this is just, a guy who is not shown he can be a driver of playoff offense and he's the guy who needs to drive your playoff offense. Yeah. I think you guys

are circling the bigger question here which is do you keep going? It sounds like based on reporting it seems like Memphis cleaned it up pretty quickly that this is just kind of a half measure. We're taking a step back to take a step forward. But was, if you were in the driver's seat, are you clean in house? Are you saying,

Jai, you're always injured, we can't deal with this? Like, we need to move on and turn the page full bore? Like, what would you do? No, I'm not cleaning a house. I think, again, this is another step in the direction of doing that, though. It's like, I'm headed there, but I could change my mind. I'm a malleable guy. You know, I'm an open-minded guy.

I'm willing to hear people out. And John Morant, man, let your game do the talking. Let your organization understand why they should chart a path for the future with you included in it. So, again, I love that idea of just being like, look, John. Clean slate, man. We're not expected to win 50 games next year. We're not expected to be at the upper echelons of the West. But we damn sure better be competitive.

If you calling yourself some type of superstar and I was just figuring OKC out, lucky I got injured. All the crap, all of this guy was saying after they got cooked in the first round, I think this is a beautiful opportunity for John Morant to write the next chapter of his career. I would love to watch one of these finals games with John Moran.

And just get his real-time reactions to the Oklahoma City defense. Like, this is a thing that he thinks he can crack, like really and truly. No, no, no, no, Rob, he cracked it. Oh, sorry, he already did it. We're winning by like 30 and the half that he got injured. And so he could do think that, like, I cracked the cold. Yeah, what happened in the other games? That's a good question.

He hadn't quite figured it out. Those are just warm-ups. Yeah, warm-up cracks. He had to ramp up from his previous injuries before he got injured. You're right. You're right. I don't blame Memphis for looking at the Jai, Jaron, Cor, and being like, let's give this another run. If only because I don't know how you get approximate value for Jai,

if anything after this season, after everything that came before that, you're probably selling low. He still has the superstar in that when he was available to play, he still had that electricity that, like, course to this entire team and then made them special in ways that they need to be special. I thought Jaron did a really great job, applying what he learned in the off season, and by offseason, I mean

the punted season from the season before. Being able to create off the dribble. He might not be their five, although he might have to play some if Zach Edy is going to get on the court. He's also injured. Apparently that happened over the off season. But there's something there. And they just need to recalibrate

the pieces around him. And I do think draft picks are the way to go because Memphis has just an incredible track record of landing the right guys. So something worth mentioning in terms of, you know, climbing not being a complete idiot for charting this course. We talk about like a million times

this playoffs that the Pacers were a top five team when they finished. They went like 34 and 15. The Grizzlies started 34 and 15. This season, this past season, they started 34 and 15, number one in the West. Like, yeah, I think there's reasons

to believe that this can be a good team. you know so hopefully this fresh start let's bring something up and then there there is a ton of talent there I mean there generally has been to your point Justin about the way that the grizzlies have drafted like there have always been guys who are either on the cusp of producing in the rotation or just need a little bit more

opportunity here's a little bit more opportunity you know if you are a Jalen Wells coming back from injury next season now you're going to have a chance to do some different stuff you're going to have the ball on your hands a little bit more things are the decks are going to be cleared for you in a slightly different way if you're G.G. Jackson with aspirations of greatness on the wing and what you can eventually be as a high-scoring 3-4 hybrid,

now is your shot. And as far as the Jod and Jaron Jackson part, I would fully expect those guys to be here for the medium-term future. And I would fully expect some kind of renegotiate and extend scenario for Jaron Jackson to still happen even after this trade. And that Lakers fans, no more Photoshop's. Well, it's not happening. I don't rule out any Lakers' Photoshop's these days.

but I do think that's the most likely outcome for him still. Like for the Grizzlies, whether you ultimately think Jaron Jackson is a featured player on the next amazing Grizzlies team or not, you need him under contract. Like you need him under contract for longer than this one expiring season. Am I nuts to think that there's still a good player

buried deep within KCP? No. He wasn't bad defensively. Yeah, he couldn't shoot, but he was pretty good on to like pull up two. like curl two's, obviously, like, you just hope that that was a weird blip in terms of his three-point accuracy.

Because you're right, the defense was there. Like, he's going to be that kind of factor. You just need to also hit some shots. I'd be sniffing around KCP if I was a serious playoff team going into next season, for sure. Has five seasons of high-level shooting success. I'm not, like, a great volume of four-game. It's just like there's, I think, if anything,

this was a trade that underline where these teams are and the magic need someone at that position, at that cap hold to perform at a very high level in order to get to where they want to go. I think Memphis just has the opportunity to almost take him in and see what he can be. And while, like, I don't know if he'll ever be, like, live up to the 20 million over the next two years sort of player,

like, I think it could still be a good player and they could kind of benefit. I saw a lot of people talk about him as sunk costs and, like, they had to actually attach a pick in the pick package in order to get off of them. I'm kind of like, anything I kind of like that bet.

It reminds me of Danny Green going to OKC a couple years ago from the Lakers, and then the Sixers being like, can we just have him? Like, I think he still has two years left. I think that's going to be the question

is if you are one of these contenders, do you have the outgoing salary or sort of the room under one of the aprons to accommodate that kind of deal? But like, if you are the magic, to be real, like this is part of the reason

you signed KCP to that contract. In the same way that it was part of the reason why the Pacer signed Bruce Brown to that contract that eventually became Pascal Seaccom. You need the salary filler and you don't always want to trade Jalen Suggs or Franz Wagner or Palo Bancaro. No, no, you can't trade Jailen Suggs.

If you look at the Magic's books, like those are the options if you want to make a big time deal unless you sign someone like KCP to this kind of contract. And yeah, I'm sure everyone involved, KCP included, wish it had gone better for him last season.

But ultimately he still kind of gets Orlando where they need to go, which is with a shooter like Desmond Bain. Well, we'll talk about the East. just before we go here, because it does seem even more compelling than it was before. I think we were looking at the east

and being like, will any team be good, though? And now it's like all of a sudden teams are perhaps sensing the opportunity and really going for it. If you guys were to tear out the east based on where we stand right now, where would you put the magic?

Are they on the top tier with the calves, and I assume Indiana at this point? Are the Knicks there? What do you got? I go Indie, on the top tier, Nick's second tier, Magic, third tier. Like, they got to show me. This is a brand new team.

You know, it's not, like, this isn't some obvious fit, right? Like, this isn't going to just get unlocked immediately in terms of defining everybody's role in this new structure of the team. Plus, they still got young guys that they need to work in, that they're still developing, like they have a lot to figure out. I think they have a nice ensembleage of talent. Like, again, like Jalen Suggs,

I have a hard time believing like a healthy Jailen Suggs in this lineup that they won't be successful. But the guy has to be healthy and they have to incorporate, you know, the new way of being the Orlando Magic. So yeah, to me they're under the Knicks. And, you know, obviously I think they're better than

the Pistons, but again, these are two teams that got to prove stuff to people. Yeah. I think that's entirely fair. To be clear, I think the Pacers might be a straight up cut above. A tier above everybody. They might be a tier one team. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you know what? That's true. In the sense that like the best of the places in this playoffs, I have not seen an East team come close to being that good. I think the one worry with the Pacers is what we were just talking about earlier is if they do have a rash of injuries. If they have one or two guys,

does it kind of break up the beautiful system that they've kind of evolved into? And to that point, you could look at this past regular season almost both ways where it's like they got everybody there and they took off and they could just take off again. But earlier in the season, they didn't have Nemhart, didn't have Neh Smith. Does it hobble them in a way that a team that's more star-driven can power through the regular season?

How much does that even matter? Because they were a four-season, they're pushing the best team in the league in the NBA finals right now. I think the other variable with them too, like not to get too deep into Pacers' off-season talk, but Miles Turner is going to be an unrestricted free agent. And if they were to lose Miles Turner, they don't really have a means to add another Miles Turner. The Tony Bradley disrespect continues on this podcast. You know what? I want to make this

part clear. I actually thought Tony Bradley had a perfectly fine stint. He was okay. Perfectly fine stint in tonight's game. He's a large man and he did those sorts of things. He's a large man and opposite Isaiah Hartinstein, Obi Toppins not it. Like he's just the man in the middle. He's the truly the man in the middle. But yeah, I think the Pacers deserve the respect as being kind of a cut above some of these other teams. Nicks and Cavs feel like fair bedfellows to me. I think the magic are like right on the cusp of that. Like I think, again, we just need to see a little bit in terms of the sort of

cohesion that leads you through multiple playoff rounds. I think they've shown enough, especially defensively, to tell us they can beat a lot of teams with their defense if only they get enough help from their offense. And maybe this will be enough, maybe it won't. But they have to show some of that like actual synergy on that end first before we start fully buying into them as a team. team that can have the sort of magic that the Knicks just pulled off in stacking round over round. It's just so attractive, though. It's like hard not to be enamored with what they've built

because it really just like adds on to exactly the type of team that they were. And as we've seen in these finals, like defense in order to counterbalance high octane offense is super important. And the magic have had that. They just needed any sign of shooting in order to dig them out of the mud and in order to build balance on that end. And so if anything, like, they have the system in place. They just need to accelerate and just, like, build on top of that. Question. Way too early.

Ended a pod. Nobody's listening to this. Oh, okay. Is Mosley on Tibbs watch? Oh, this is... Oh, you're still wrong. I think it's one of those things where, like, the chatter is obviously out there. Anytime you see a team run into similar problems year over year offensively,

I think it's out there, but it's like they've had so many injuries. Ultimately, the idea of how they want to play makes sense. I don't know that they've had the perfect personnel to execute it. And so, like, who's whose feet do you lay that at? Like, who do you blame for those sorts of quandaries? I think Mosey's a really good coach. But I thought, I think Tom Thibodeau's a really good coach. And ultimately, teams move on, as we have seen from Michael Malone, from Tom Thibito,

from like, you know, good qualified coaches because they see. some flaw in some part of their execution. So it would not shock me if they get off to a super slow start to see that seat start heating up. But I think that's very, very, very premature. No, I'm talking offseason, not pre. You know, Tibbs got me. They lost them in off season.

It's crazy times. Tibbs watched, that's all. Well, those other teams were also capped out teams that made huge moves where the only move that they could really make was firing their head coach. So at a certain point, it does fall off the feet of probably Mosley, they can't get it done this season.

I think in 2026, 27, they're flirting with the second apron. So, like, the clock started ticking way quicker than we imagined. But we'll see. I think next season's going to be proven for a lot of those teams.

Oh, yeah. I'll say this, too, as far as, like, what we're seeing be successful in the playoffs on offense, the sort of momentum that the Pacers play with, the sort of connectivity

that the best Thunder half-court runs have in addition to how they get out in the open court, the magic of proven, they can be really disruptive to that style of play. Like, they were really one of the only teams

that could gum up Boston playing at its most, like, highest octane level. If they can continue to do that while evolving with teams like the Pacers, while evolving with cross-conference threats like Oklahoma City, I mean, they are just like positioned to be the sort of counter on defense to a lot of what we're seeing in the NBA right now. Yep. Just one last PSA before we go. Stop counting picks in a trade because half of them probably don't matter.

How many people have been like, Luca went for one pick? and this is four. And so what's going on? And like, Katie, you should go for 12 picks because of this change. Not one to one.

The picks are just, the Phoenix pick that Memphis might get from this train is one of the most complex, convoluted picks swap for swap for like, oh, you get this one and I get this one to the point where Memphis had a piece of the swap and then traded that in for a full pick from within this, like, web of you get this and I get this. It's like, it's a mess out there.

It's just like, just do a little bit of effort to find out which picks matter and which don't. I have the system in place for this reason. I won't do it because we're an hour into this podcast and nobody wants to hear it. But if you pay me on the low, I will rate the picks that they got. So if you want your social media blasts to be 15% more fair and accurate, please hire Justin Verrier to tutor you up. What are we saying? Five bucks.

Is that it? Or subscription fee. Get the email in order to. We're putting you on Fiverr for social media advice. I can do that. No, well, it's not social media advice. It's expertise. Okay, I'm sorry.

I mean to diminish the work that you do. This is my job. You're right. You're right. You're right. The swaps aren't always beenping. Yeah. Swaps don't swap.

That's what my blog is going to be called. The swaps don't swap. Let's end it right there. We'll be back sometime later this week. I hope. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back. We'll talk to you.

better.