The Ringer NBA Show - Jalen Brunson’s Moment, Wemby’s Next Move, and Finals Ripple Effects | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are here to give their thoughts on the New York Knicks ending their 53-year drought and becoming NBA champions. Then they talk about some ripple effects and takeaways from the Finals. (00:00) Intro (11:55) Jalen Brunson (25:55) What’s next for Wemby and the Spurs? (53:39) Finals ripple effects Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Victoria Valencia, Isaiah Blakely, and Ben Cruz The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. Buy any two Ferrero Brands and you could win $1 million. Visit GoAllInAndWin.com to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle, man. Gentlemen, the Knicks, they're champions. Who to thunk it? Genuinely, who to thunk it? I have to say, I, in the back of my mind, had considered that I might just go until I die without ever seeing the Knicks win an NBA championship,

given the way that, I don't know, the first 30-something years started since I've been alive. And yet, here we are. I can only imagine how it feels to be a Nick, an actual Knicks fan who has gone. along for that ride. Yeah, man. I mean, that's, if you had told me before the season, hey, Kyle, like, if I could, you know, if I'd gone in a time machine, like, hey, the Knicks are going to win the title. I wouldn't have been like, fault. That's what you're using the time machine for

of all the things. I'm just say, I would use it for many things, but, uh, I wouldn't have just fallen down from shock, but it definitely would have been a like, oh, really? Wow. You know, it would have been a much bigger surprise than if you told me OKC or I just, or the nuggets or whatever it is, it's a nice surprise. I mean, I picked them to get to the finals, but I still am feeling pretty like, it's pretty impressive and it's a nice surprise that they won it, even though I'm not like, you know, utterly shocked. Do you feel the same way about that? I don't know. I just like how you wove in there that you picked them to make the finals. Like, you didn't make a big deal out of it, but you just made it a little bit of it. That's good. That's good.

Throughout the playoffs. I've said it repeatedly. I've said it repeatedly. I had a moment at the beginning, Pina and I had a funny back and forth at the beginning of the playoffs where I was like really, really regretting that decision initially where I was just like, what was I thinking? And we had a funny ongoing thing about Brunson who we can get to where I was just like, is this doable in the playoffs? And my goodness, is it ever doable? Turns out. Well, that was the last time that they were down because they would not lose two games in a series ever again throughout the playoffs. What a time for New York. What a time for amateur arsonists out there. But Rob is right. It does feel like everything that we were told for so long in sports, like this team.

Sad Sack franchise never going to happen for them. It feels like those things, time is just kind of had a way of metting those out. Like the Red Sox growing up were sad sacks when I lived out there. The Cubs, for instance, the Knicks are on that level. Unfortunately, there are some teams that probably will literally never happen for, like the Sacramento Kings. But, you know, 50 years down the road, perhaps, maybe. Spaceships will be there. Maybe they can ride on motor scooters or whatever while they're playing, and that will be the difference.

That's the thing. like when we're still doing this pod 30 years from now, still working out technical difficulties, I think that's when the Kings are going to finally do it. And we're going to be there live to podcast on Netflix about it. Floating heads in like back to tanks on Futurama or whatever it is, whatever the, I forget the mode of technology they use there.

But the big thing here is, I mean, you know, we joke about the aftermath. People always get up in arms about the stuff that happens after a title happens. Like a news where it happens everywhere. It happens in Lexington.

It happens in stores. It happens in every city. But the intensity of this one is, Justin, you can speak to stores more specifically, I'm sure. But I got on, my immediate reaction was I need to go get on the live traffic cameras for New York. I just got on there. It was just scrolling through them. I know a lot of people had this experience of I was just trying to see what was going on. And the partying, yeah, it was more.

I was joking about it on Twitter because, you know, we could talk about it. the crime and things and get into some of that more specifically, but they care more than anybody else. And that's the thing about the, you know, the juxtaposition of their misery. It's inextricable from how much they care. You know, a lot of cities care, but it's so woven into the fabric of New York and the generations of Nix fans. Just when you start getting that into the kind of tapestry of who you are as a fan base, you grow up. I don't know, did you all have a fan experience like this? Like did your parents tell you like these larger than life tales about because that's a thing in Kentucky. And that's a big thing about when you grow up as I hear you hear about

these guys who become larger than life. That's a huge part of the Knicks experience of just like, man, let me tell you about Bernard King. Let me tell you about, you know, Mark Jackson. Yeah. John Starks. Like for what other fan base would John Starks become an immortal piece of lore and just like a banner carrier for everything the Knicks are and have been to this point? I just, I'm, I'm, I am caught in the wake of all this. Around this time every year, we reflect on the season, we reflect on the championships, we talk about all the things that they pulled off, the incredible, like, team-building maneuvers that it took to get to this point.

But, like, we don't have to pretend that all of these things are the same, that every championship feels the same way. And it's, I would say particularly striking coming off of the Thunder's win last year, where an incredible run that the Thunder had to win the title, a seven-game NBA finals. And yet, this is just a different thing. And that's okay. It's okay to acknowledge that. And I think part of the reason this has been such a joy just in terms of watching the finals,

but also kind of basking in the aftermath of it, is just this, like, incredible emotional connection that not just Nix fans have with this particular team, but basketball fans as a whole kind of got wrapped up in it. And the bandwagoning of really the entire sport has just been on a role for weeks on end in a way that has just been incredible to watch. Yeah. All right. We need to get into all of this. We got to talk about the spurs. You've got to talk about some ripple effects from the finals,

but we also got to dig into Jalen Brunson, the New York Knicks and everything that happened in Game 5, right after this. This episode of the Ringer NBA show is presented by Ferreiro. The world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferreiro. Enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats, like Kinder Bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer

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Official rules apply. Learn more at go all in and win.com. So why don't we start here? Because I think Rob was right before we went to the break here that this one feels a little different, not only because of the emotional aspect because of New York and all the suffering

and everything kind of coming around there, but this game five in the world, way that they won just felt so like, oh, like you felt it in your gullet, this one. And I think this stat says it better than anything. And this was from ESPN. I think they mentioned this on the broadcast. The spurs actually led the finals 69% of the time, which, you know, it's just like you wince when you hear that thing. Yeah. Because the way that they lost it. So Wimby's, Wimby's quote wasn't wrong. Oh, he was absolutely right. He was right. But then obviously the way they lost in game four. And then it happened similarly in game three.

there was just a real like reach into your heart, rip it out, and then just like eat it in front of you quality to this Knicks win, like a decisiveness that hadn't been there previously. Whereas just like, oh yeah, there are no doubt. They really just kind of wax them in the most like embarrassing fashion, unfortunately. Yeah, I think when the Knicks started something like four of 22 from the field and the Spurs defense was amazing to start game five. Like they deserve all due credit for holding the Knicks to that kind of shooting percentage. but the Knicks were shooting like four of 22 and the Spurs were only up like seven or eight points. I was just like, okay, this thing is, this is going to be a wrap. The push is coming.

The comeback is inevitable. I just at this point have the utmost faith in the Knicks and Jalen Brunson to close out any of these games that are even remotely close. And the incredible accomplishment of their run is that several of these games were close at all, that they had the comeback gear to just like dismiss a start like that, to come back to swat away an opponent that's winning 69% of the time for an entire series and pull out just improbable win after improbable win after improbable win and when that happens enough times it just ceases to be improbable to me yeah big big bogeyman's big boogeyman in widows bay vibes from uh i don't know if justin's watching that show where i am i don't remember he's well okay yeah yeah i mean

of Michael Myers almost. Yeah. Well, yeah, you're right. I mean, they're derivative, but you get, you get these situations where the Knicks are, the spurs come out and they think, all right, we're going to hold our taser or whatever it is, our, what is it, stun gun? I think it's a stun gun to the gasoline and catch him on fire. And it's like he's on fire. I think we're in good shape here. When really, you kind of have to be Patricia with a shotgun to the Knicks head all the way to the, all the way to the crematorium and make sure that they are dead because they just time and time and again, and I think this is a function of, they came back like you were saying, these felt scripted almost in a way that was flipped from the way the Boston series went.

Was it in 2024, the one where the Knicks kept coming back in late game? But I think this is a function of at the NBA level where you don't really see this in college that the amount of good players that can accrue on a good playoff team can really put together these sequences in a game where if you don't have a great, you don't have great depth. The Knicks just repeatedly would come back during these stretches where the spurs had problematic stretches within their rotation that they just kept losing over and over again,

which will factor into some of their offseason conversation that we can get into. But they just seem kind of unkillable. It just seemed like Brunson repeatedly was like a boxer, just prepping them for the late round. I'm going to hit you with the heavy stuff. And he paid off. He delivered.

Well, that's the flip side of the first half defense, where the pressure and how high they were picking them up and how much physicality they were exerting gave way to like what happened in the second half, which is it didn't seem like they had the same sort of pep. Wembe in particular, we're going to talk about that a lot, I'm sure, later in the episode. But also just to have Brunson to be able to turn to, to go to work there. Like, I could just watch him pivoting and like making these small little headfakes and a look-offs in order to get downhill in the way that he was pretty much all day. I'm curious why the spurt. I'm curious why the Spurs defensively still, despite the fact that he seemed like he was getting a free ring to the

basket kept picking him up so high. There was a really crucial possession where Castle was basically picking up a half court. Brunson makes one move and he's basically at the rim at that point. I think that's something like the Spurs need to ask themselves is just like their process coaching-wise in the midst of a game. I don't know if you guys saw the clip from game four as well where the last final possession where they didn't know who was they were guarding and actually got mashed up on the wrong guys, which led to the switch for Wembe, which led to him being so far out there. There's a lot of that going on there. But obviously, I think this is Jalen Brunson's moment, 45 points out of the 94 that the Knicks had in this game. I also just felt like his walkoff

interview with Lisa Salters was just like so affecting. Like, that's literally everything you want from sports from this moment. Unfortunately, it was a pretty stark comparison to what happened with Jason Tatum probably two years ago, a moment that felt a little too manufactured, a little too like he had rehearsed what he was going to say once he got to that point. Brunson was basically like couldn't talk because he was just so emotional in that point. And I was just thinking, like, throughout the year we've talked so much about face of the league and like how the league is selling itself and like what works, what doesn't, the tanking and all this stuff. I feel like that was probably one of the dominant storylines throughout this NBA season, at least the regular

season. But like once we got to this point, like I felt like this is exactly why we all plug into sports, like to watch someone like Brunson, who's a bit of an underdog, overcome adversity time and time again in order to win in the biggest moments. Like I don't know, this is why Jerry Bruckheimer is a zillionaire, you know? It was a real like this, how can you not be romantic about basketball moments? And I have to say, like, it was special. I felt that in ways that probably I had in even recent years and other teams of water. I think it was incredibly special. I can't remember a quote to come out of the finals

that I will think about more than Jalen Brunson saying you're allowed to think about the worst case scenario, but then you have to go do something about it. Like, I'm just going to put that in the pocket for the rest of my life. And I'm going to think about many of these Jalen Brunson plays for the rest of my life. Like, this was an all-time showing.

I don't know that we've seen a better finals closing performance in terms of the closing of these games since Michael Jordan, since at least Dirk in the 2011 finals. They had comparable percentages in terms of their scoring for their teams in the fourth quarter of this series. But this was incredible stuff. And of all of the plays that Brunson did, of all the things he pulled off, I keep going back to that one ISO possession he had against Wemby, like midway through the fourth quarter.

I believe it was trimming the Spurs lead from six to four. and one on one throws Wemby off balance three different times. Like first with an incredible cross to break free of Wemby from the perimeter in the first place. Then hits him with a bump midway through his drive, throws one of the best defenders, a guy who's so much taller than him completely off balance. Then hits him with like the little head fake inside

just enough to sell Wemby that he might be pulling up for that floater. All to get this crazy layup that I'm not sure any other player in the entire league could make other than, Jalen Brunson. And to me, that's just like the whole experience in a nutshell. It's like three absolutely elite individual fundamental plays to make just like an all-time title securing bucket. That's the kind of run he's been on.

That's the kind of run the Knicks have been on. And I just don't, I'm never going to get tired of celebrating that or of what Jalen Brunson just did over the last few weeks. Yeah, you're right. It cut it to four. That was 83.79. Because I wrote down that entire run. When he came back in, it was at the,

the eight minute mark and it was 73 83 was the score and yeah i mean he he just kind of wove together a sequence that was it felt inevitable i mean the people i was watching with we all were just like it's coming here it comes you know and and he and he delivered and you know some of it was the pickup point stuff like you were talking about justin where you know as much as castle is equipped to be lanky and give the right the right types of bumps and in combination with lunging towards the ball and his explosiveness. Like that set him up to guard Shay, I think, in a way, in the isolation. I think we've talked about this on this show a little bit, but in the midrange, it's not

the exact right tool bag to guard Brunson because I think the playing uphill stuff, Brunson just gets in there and he just has such a great feel for the consequence of every just tiny little thing that he does. Like he gets into the, he plays more like Luca that he does like Shea, honestly. And I'm not going to, it would be funny. I think to assume that maybe there are time together. I'm sure he learned some things from. Oh, definitely.

But he got in there and, yeah, I mean, that play on Wimby, but there were just a few different times where his certainty in transition, the spurs were scrambling. I mean, Champany, he took that ball off the rim. Champany fouls him. He just time and time again got them in really tough situations. And I think that Brunson has affected the small guard pantheon, the word we love at the ringer.

now it's Isaiah Thomas. Now it's Steph Curry, who's, he's Steph's 6-3, 6-2 and a half. And then it's Brunson. I mean, Iverson got to the finals, but, you know, got up against a behemoth and the Lakers. And then Chris Paul, Steve Nash, those guys never got to the finals. I think he's really affected that conversation in the way that we look at small players even going forward. It's just kind of like, but I think it's really special what he did. I don't even know if it's replicable, to be honest with you. Well, I do want to talk about that.

I had this later on, but we should talk about it now. You're right. Like, Steph feels like a completely separate thing. He basically ushered in a different style of basketball being played with the shots that he was making. And so, like, he feels like his own little subcategory to that. In terms of small guards, it just, like, it just doesn't happen this way. And I do wonder how much a result of the Nick's success just came from insulating him with the exact right team you would want around him. And I think that gets us into the conversation about, like, how much did his initial pay cut on his extension?

really just basically outfit him with the right team in order to do so. On the one hand, I think the pay cut thing is a little misleading because ultimately in the long run, when he gets to his next extension, he isn't going to lose that much money, if anything, he's going to make it back. It does take a lot of faith in your organization that when you sign an extension, you're going to then get the maximum amount on the next extension coming down the road there. And so there's that. But it did feel like him doing that allowed,

him to have this sort of top-heavy team. It's basically a big three when you look at just pure salaries with OG him and Carl Anthony Towns. Then obviously you add him McHale. And so like was it as much Brunson's like just particular style of brilliance one, Rob, or is it as much about like him getting exactly what he would need by doing the pay cut in order to put himself in position to be on this sort of stage? I mean, it's very much both. Right. Right. Jalen Brunson is not LeBron James. He's not even Steph Curry. Like historic, like these are all time incredible players who are going to be in the top 10 conversations in the history of the sport. Jelan Brunson, not there yet. Maybe he will be. Maybe he's going to like rattle off three or four incredible years here and we're going to have that talk. This isn't that. Like it is a more balanced champion. And that's part of what makes the Nick story so fascinating and so interesting. And I think also part of what made the regular season so challenging was figuring out how to balance. all of these different pieces to their maximum effect to not just be this ISO-driven version of the Knicks all the time.

Like they had so many different gears, they had so many different speeds, so many different ways to throw teams off balance. And then when it came down to it, it could be Brunson throwing the haymakers because he didn't have to do it every step of the way, 82 games and through an entire playoff run. But I think he is uniquely conditioned to be dominant because of the fundamentals of his game, because of the way he scores. And also just with where the NBA is right. now. I think so much of 2014 or so until 2022 was about like how do we create space, right?

How do we stretch out the floor to the maximum possible effect? And the swing back, I would say since that time is how do we use that space? Not just how do we get a bunch of three and D wings on the floor, but who are the guys who are so uniquely attuned to that body control that Kyle was talking about in terms of the bumps and the manipulations of defenders? Like if you can get one guy on an island, even if that one guy is the best defensive player in the world, who are the players who are so good at dialing in those exact possessions and getting the most out of them. And Jalen Brunson is among that class of player. Yeah, it's interesting watching, you know, they had those like this day on the playoffs over the years. I don't know if you all saw

those clips. The NBA was posting them. It was interesting to watch. I guess it was the 2017 finals or maybe it was, I think it was, it might even been 2016 when, because all the Cavs, Warriors stuff, friends together, as we know. But it was fascinating watching Steph's style of play in those clips where I was like, that feels like a long time ago. And I know we all were so convinced where, which it is increasingly long ago, but stylistically it feels even further away because we got so obsessed with what you were talking about, Rob, about like how do we, how do we make the floor bigger?

How do we get more evasive? How do we make teams scramble around? And those things still do exist. It is interesting and I think important to note that the concert between Kat and between Brunson is also very important. Both of those guys are three level scores, which I think the spurs don't currently have, which we can talk about more in a little bit. But his ability to pull Wimby away was huge at very critical times in this game. That one play where, and this speaks to just the small things that Brunson's able to do, he had a play. I rewound this so many times because I kept trying to pause it at the spot where he did it. And it wasn't. working so I had to do one of those just you know cursor scrub kind of like drag it moments and it's where he drove on the left side and carl is in the left corner wimby lunges at him like like a gigantic mechanical spider or something i mean i can't imagine wimby stunting at me it would be just so terrifying brunson just gives him a split second ball fake head shoulder fake to to cat and

and carl's such a good shooter that wimby scrambles back out there and it's like that kind of stuff is partly what makes him so great. But I do think that their skill sets in concert together is a really important thing, even if Carl didn't produce to the level of a superstar in this series. Yeah, and Mon Schumpert talked about this a little bit on the hoop collective, but like Jalen Brunson's eye fakes are so devastating in that way. I mean, it's become a signature part of his game. Like that specific manipulation, he didn't invent it.

Guards have been doing it for a long time, especially great playmakers. But I think the discrepancy for him as a guy who's not necessarily known for passing being like a past first point guard in the traditional sense still being able to sell that so convincingly is a huge part of what allows him to kind of wedge his way open. Yeah. And I have to imagine that by game five that Brunson was probably in their heads a little bit based off of some of those slight fakes and hesitations and pivots and whatnot that they were just like they didn't know where to go because it felt like he was just getting scot-free, especially like that one play late in it. I don't remember the timing was where Castle just like was at the dust.

picked him up at half court, just didn't have any shot at it. I have to imagine he thought he was faking one way and he just went. And that's like the own personal blender that Brunson had in contrast to like what they were doing with just the past and some of the other possessions. Just like watching the spurs get moved around, especially Wembe, with the way that they were moving the ball is something that like I will always remember. And we talk about space. Like that was the, the Knicks own like special quality in order to manipulate the space.

was to get guys moving and in rotation and just trying to be able to follow the ball because everything was just so on a string in comparison to what was happening on the other end where it felt like the Knicks were able to play to their strength, play to their size, because of the lack of shooting with the spurs there. Do you want to talk about the spurs? You guys have anything else that you want to talk about the Knicks? I would say just one other thing about the Knicks, but really it's about both teams. A lot of what we're describing to me is the psychological battle of what someone like Jalen Brunson

and really the Knicks broader offense does to a team like the Spurs versus the physical weardown that San Antonio was trying to extract from Brunson in the first place, right? It's like part of the reason they're picking him up so high is just hoping beyond hope that if you do this for 40 minutes, that in minute 40 he's not going to hit the crazy shot that he's obviously going to hit. But the tradeoff for that is if you are pressuring him that much and he just keeps beating it and beating it and beating it in route to, you know,

what do you end up with, 45, 45 points in that game, that just devastates your defense in a way that it's like it is not an X and O thing it is not a tactical thing it's just like a deeply spiritual wound that I think is really hard to recover from in real time and scores like Brunson had the unique ability to do that where you throw everything you have at them you're hoping that the attrition of a final series wears them down but instead they just kind of pick you apart from inside out yeah there's there's like a paralysis of tedium I think with Brunson, where he just brings you into that world that I was talking about that. And you're just so on edge. And I think it's mentally fatiguing. I honestly thought they should have thrown

Harper on him more. I know I made a big deal about that. And after the last game, I just thought he, he had, he had a better. There was a play, there were a couple of plays down the stretch where Harper picked him up. And I think walled him a little better than Castle was doing. But yeah, it's, it's really cool because I think the, the simple thing that you could get lured into watching this team is just think like, oh, this is a little guy, Helio team, and he's just slowing it down. And man, they can't do anything about him. But it's like, that was the, once the spurs are tired, that's the thing that they were the least equipped to do, you know, because I made a point, it was to slow that down because I made the point about the Wimby

stunning at him thing. Like, Wimby was just stretched mentally. Physically, he was worn down. You know, one follows the other. But I think at that point in the, in the series and in the game, he was just so stretched out and worn out mentally that I don't think he was in his right mind. I think he overreacted to that because he was so tired. Another thing, too, that I don't know that we've talked about on this show is the fact that the Spurs are an excellent zone offense team. And the Knicks are an excellent zone offense team. And the Spurs play their own type of zone with Wimby. And I think that that was another thing that really hurt them is that they could get them into that ball movement blender.

and that just wore the spurs out by the end. I mean, if you were going to create a team in a lab to beat his own defense, it would have the high post shooter and passing in Kat. It would have the mid-range killer and Jalen Brunson, and it would have the backline offensive rebounders like Josh Harden Ogen and Obey. They have everything you need to punish those sorts of strategies. So I think Kyle's right about Wembe, where I think the thing that's most, you're welcome.

The thing that's just most concerning or the thing that's most, disappointing, I'd say, is just the way that he comported himself down the stretch there, where you really remembered for the first time in a very long time that he's 22 years old and still figuring this all out in the fly. It's one thing to be fatigued, especially coming off of last off season where I think people forget, like, he literally couldn't do a lot of basketball stuff. And then part of the reason why he went to Shaolin with the monks was because of the blood clot limiting what he could do on a court. And so, like, he basically missed the bridge year between his second year and third year of offseason working and just like working at his game and all

other stuff like which is wild to think about that he is where he is without that but it just felt like that's one thing right we can talk about like the specifics of his gameplay and all this other stuff but like it just seemed like he was melting down and things were just getting out of his grass and it almost felt like he was becoming overly physical to the point of like little dirty as a result of it he probably would have gotten suspended for game six as a result of like going under Brunson and not being called for the flagrant on the landing issue. And just, I don't know, it just really felt like he completely spiraled in a way that we weren't used to seeing him. I guess it's just the moment.

I guess it's just the pressure and all that. It's nothing to be concerned about like super long term. But like, I think the lasting image of Wembe I'll have is him kind of just being a little bit of a dick and a little bit too physical as a result of him not being. able to affect the game in the way that he's used to doing so. Yeah, I mean, he was frustrated constantly in this series. And sometimes that manifested in him, like, taking it out on the game and being really aggressive for minutes of a time, minutes at a time pursuing his scoring. And sometimes it manifested in him two-arm shoving Jalen Brunson for kind of no reason

whatsoever other than these are difficult games. Like, these are unique challenges. And not only was Wembe not particularly ready to respond to everything that the Knicks threw at him, I'm just not sure he was ready for 40 plus minutes of intense, not just physical exertion, but absolutely intense focus in these games. It's a really difficult thing. And when you think about someone who during the regular season, the Spurs went to such great efforts to keep his minutes down, right, to limit his intense competitive windows

for the sake of getting him here. Some of this is the tradeoff. Like in game four, as the Knicks are pulling off the most unspeakable comeback in NBA finals history. Wemby was completely gassed down the stretch, missed crucial free throws, made mind-blundering mistakes. And that's after already earlier in the series, he threw the, you know, the pass off of Stefan Castle's butt. Like, this, this is kind of where his finals legacy is beginning, right? You come in and you get absolutely humbled. And I think his comment about how the Spurs had a lot of this series in hand and the lesson of it is just how painful your mistakes are,

just rings absolutely true. Like the smallest margins get blown up in terms of what one error in judgment can do. And down the stretch of these games, whatever the cause may be, if you want to say it's physical, if you want to say it's mental, if you want to say he's just too young for it,

he just was making so many of those mistakes at an uncharacteristic frequency that, I mean, we'll see how he responds to that and starts to kind of put those pieces back together. Yeah, it'd be one thing if it were just kind of in, you know, a vacuum, if we're just playing basketball straight up,

can you answer these problems, but we all know that that's just not the way it works. And I mean, this is just a, I know we've done the Sun Tzu warfare thing before. It's just like the thing happening on the battlefield is not the is not the totality of it. There's there's the psychological, there's information. There's a lot of different ways that people go about trying to get the job done. And I think that's true of basketball too. And I think that the mental toll that a lot of it is, yes, there were the bumps that he was taking on every roll of the basket.

And I think of his body type, he's got a lot of things he's got to figure out of just getting stronger and improving, you know, I know the Spurs know that they have this really, really special talent and they try to take care of him during the season. But maybe that his cardio, they work on it in some way and just try to get him more ready for this. But there's also, on the other hand, there's a, there's an interesting, and I think I've alluded to this before, watching him an international play when he was growing up or watching him with Nantere or Metz 92, there's a big like wherever you go there you are psychological thing going on with him where he was prone to this stuff and I don't think people I don't think Americans saw it like in the

early part of his career with the spurs where it's not dissimilar from Yokich where he wouldn't fly off the handle the way Yokch would just get like teary eyed and scream and things like that but Wimby would get would fly off the handle and psychologically take himself out of the game it was a thing that we saw when he was younger and I think it's something that he's going to have to figure out On the other hand, who you are as a basketball player from 15 to 18, from 18 to 22, from 22 to 26, those are big mile markers in who you are. We're at 22. Who he is, he has a lot of stuff to figure out. And I've heard people like narrative wise, if Wimby's career had gone this way, it would have been like jumping from a new hope straight to return to the Jedi.

I've been like Luke's special, Luke conquered the galaxy. It's like, no, every single superstar, we talked about this on this show where it would have been weird if he had just conquered the league and his first go at it. We need the Empire Strikes Back part of Wimby's story where it's like, and I think we went into it where it's like he's got stuff he's got to answer in terms of his game. He's got to figure out how I want to, can we talk about the Spurs hierarchy as a team because I think that's what this launches into. I could go on knowing about this. But that's a key thing. You're just saying how much they use Deerrin Fox despite the fact that he couldn't hit a goddamn shot? Let's do it. Let's talk about the Spurs hierarchy because I think it fucked them at really, really brutal times in this series.

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both Vassell and others, about just like Harper not being happy with his role. I don't know what was going on. I saw Michael Wright at ESPN suggesting that was much earlier on in the season when Harper wasn't playing enough versus like what specific role he was playing later on. And so clearly Harper wants to be a bigger factor.

And if you watched any minute of the finals, you would know that he deserves that because at the end of the game five, when they needed some of the most, he was the best player on the floor. And I have to say, like, if he was unhappy with his role, even in the playoffs or even when things were going right, I fucking love it. Like, this is what you want from the guy that you're hoping is going to be the counterpart to Wembe and lead you into this new era of prominence.

Like, it's okay to be like the best teammate who, like, sacrifices all this stuff. If you're a role player, if you're the number one guy, if you're a potential MVP candidate down the road, I want you to be the fucking dog who, like, wants it, like, now and is unhappy when you don't get it. And so, like, the spurs have some stuff to figure out, I guess, for me, I think it's pretty clear cut where it's just, like, give Harper as much as he wants as soon as he wants it.

Yeah, I think it's going to be a huge part of their journey next season. It's just figuring out one way or another, how you get Dylan Harper up to the level of running offense where you feel super comfortable just giving him the keys down the stretch of some of these games. And maybe, maybe that is you still start Deeran Fox but when Harper comes in he gets to run

the show a little bit more within his role maybe if you have the political capital to do it you just move Fox to the bench and start Harper outright but if you're the number two overall pick and you're playing 22 minutes a game in the regular season yeah you should want more than that like I would be concerned if he didn't want more

than that there's big Kobe Eddie Jones vibes with this aren't there is it a little bit yeah it's Because remember Kobe, Kobe was like, I should be starting. I'm the best player in the team. And remember, like, Nick Van Exel and a lot of the vets on that team, I think Byron, Byron Scott was like on his way out.

But we're talking like 96, 97. Yeah. It was, you know, they were like, this kid, Jesus Christ. Like, there's that vibe to this. And Kobe's shown, showed in big moments. It was like he did some brilliant things and he did some, you know, some rough stuff. But that's what that reminds me of. But that's where it's different.

Like, if any of them, between the two guys. Dierrin Fox is the one making the young player mistakes. Like he's the one settling for bad shots. He's the one with some heinous turnovers, finals altering mistakes in terms of like going up for that layup against OG in game four, for example. Not saying Harper's perfect. He had some bad turnovers too.

I actually don't think for as much as we have clamored for more for Dylan Harper, more for Dylan Harper, more for Dylan Harper. He just like does not have the organizational instincts yet to run offense at an NBA finals level. He's a great driver, an unbelievable finisher, especially for his size. He's going to do amazing things in the league. I don't even know that he was entirely ready for all this. I think that is the big question, is how much do you need Deer and Fox's steady hand

to organize things when Fox is going right? And I think it feels a little too soon, even next season, to get away from that quality. Now, do you need that specifically from Deer and Fox, a guy who is going to be making a shit ton of money in the very near future. I'm not so sure. Do you need basically just a stopgap solution, like a point guard, almost like Chris Paul four years ago

where he's past the point where like... Throw Chris Paul in there. That'll calm it down. Well, just late era of Chris Paul where you just need someone to do the organizational stuff, the adult stuff in the room, so that your young, mercurial talents can go be that. Because like some of the lineups where it's just like Harper and Castle, for instance,

like they don't work totally, part because of the shooting, in part because I think they're still trying to figure things out. I think Castle like kind of got away, Scott Free with a lot of blame there. I mean, he was very bad in game five, but like sometimes he would just be overzealous defensively. I don't know if playing with Wemby almost like lures you into a sense of false comfortability because you could be so aggressive. And then like if he's not right, then like things just fall apart there. But I think Castle still has so much left to do. Like a lot of what he's getting by on is a lot of just like innate physical gifts and intuition and he's awesome feel, but like, he's not refined at all. And so I think that's the question is, do you need Fox? Because clearly you need what he can bring when he is

right. I think you need somebody on this team who can actually settle the team down into their offense and make them feel like stable and level. And right now, they just didn't really have those guys. Like they were not a precise team in terms of their execution. Sometimes Fox would have those huge moments where everything kind of turns to him and he would hit an absolutely critical like step back mid-range shot in a way that is very important for what their offense was. That just shouldn't be what the trajectory that the Spurs are aiming for is. And I think some of that could come from Harper. Some of that could come from Castle settling down.

I think a lot of it too is going to have to come from Victor Webbenyama having an avenue for offense that is a little more sustainable and like just something you can dial up beyond roll to the rim and we're going to play out of that. Like he needs go to definitive mid-range offense. That's the purview of stars. That's what's kind of expected of someone in his position. And he's physically suited to do it. Like I know, you know, Zach has been clamoring on his pod for like the Porzingis type shot from Victor Webbenyama.

I think that's a great call. But also before it was the Porzinga shot, it was the Tim Duncan shot. Like if we can get Tim Duncan off the paintball course for a couple days over the summer to talk to Wembe about like free throw line. extended elbow type offense, that could be such an easy thing for him. I think he either needs that or he needs the Dirk Lamarcus-Aldridge-style baseline like turnaround, right? Like one of those two shots is going to be really important to his development. And the speed at which they come on could determine how quickly the spurs are able to get back to a stage like this. Oh, I have a lot of thoughts about this. Fox, I think that one of the big issues is you nailed it when you were saying

like they need the steadying thing, but the problem is that you can't, I made this point on Twitter that, like, Fox is not like Conley where he will come in and just steady and pick his spots. If you bring Fox on to steady, you're getting the other stuff too, because Fox in his mind, rightly so, All-Star plays like he thinks he's Michael Jordan, but really he's probably closer to the best version of his probably more like Warriors Jordan Pool, to be honest with you. It's just like the scoring. Like, it's. Oh, okay. Now we're just driving him through the mud. No, I just think the best version of pool, I'm just saying of like in on title team, I think he gives you buckets. But I think the moment you start to lean on them, you court these types of things. And I think this has always been my thing with Fox.

This is why like I've annoyed the shit at Kentucky fans because I've always criticized Fox for this. Yeah, stepping out of line with the fraternity here. No, they had a seven play sequence down the stretch of this game. And this this encapsulates what I'm saying. They needed Fox to steady them. I wrote this down. Do we, hold on, do we need the cool stat drop? Do we have that available to us? It's not a stat. This is just kind of a secret.

So a seven-play sequence, and I think four or at least three of them, he settled for contests, heavily contested stepback twos. One of them, they run a DHO. He misses a 12-footer, and it was heavily contested. They run the high 45 thing. He gets scored on. Let's see. And then, yeah, they run it again.

And he just had two or three different sequences there where OG is heavily contesting him. And he just takes bad shots at bad times. I think they have a hierarchy problem where Rob, what you're saying is correct. Victor needs to find more consistent ways where he could get to his own offense. If he's facing up, it's almost just like I'd rather him get the extra point and just take a three. The long twos,

I understand why they maybe wouldn't want to do that. And you put him in a position to rim run and maybe go get it. But this is my over. I think that's an area where I get like a points per shot. expected value conversation says one thing. And I genuinely think the difference between being a 42% mid-range shooter and a 35% three-point shooter is like a meaningful gap. Like when you're talking about settling possessions, I don't even care about the points. I care about what makes you feel stable. And Chuck in threes, especially for Victor Webb

and Yama, I don't think is ever going to make this offense feel stable. But he's like a 30% 30-point shooter, right? Really, truly. As good as it looks, it's pretty streaky. This is probably my strongest feeling about this, but go ahead. Yeah. Well, how much is like a mid-range shot like that bad at this point when you're that tall and you're basically just like not jumping and throwing it like into the hoop basically? It's just like if teams are going to sell out on keeping him from the rim and it feels like the fate of the league is going to be dictated by whether or not he could be effective at the basket,

just having the natural counter of being right there, whether it's a sky hook, whether it's a Tim Duncan bank shot, whatever it is. just like just a pure mid-range set shot, like, I think would just completely unlock it. Because another part of this is like, I also think the spur's inconsistency from deep is also like a pretty significant thing where it's like it feels like Champani is the only consistent three-point shooter. And even he has like really like stark bouts of inconsistency even half to half. Like even when he has like six threes, it's just like a lot of them come in bunches from the start. But then he's a role player. Dude, the champagne thing is a problem.

He was up like in not the problem highlight snort emoji. Oh my God, he was such a problem on defense in this series. That's a whole other. I got to figure that out. That's a thing. Well, if you had a more stable, better version of that four, which we have been saying in mock trade scenarios for what? Two years at this point, give him a lot of marketing him,

giving him that guy, give him that guy. Like, I think that would help. I love Champany. I think he's a really good rotation player. They're going to bring him back. probably on an extension in the summer. He's going to be part of their top seven, top eight. But like, should he be eight?

Maybe that would be a better suited role for him. An idea I had just like trying to think through this sort of situation. Like, would you trade Fox for Michael Porter Jr. right now? I don't think the Nets would. Really? You don't think that they would take a bet on just the talent and just like having a star? Because I think the Nets, the problem with the Nets is like they just don't have anything at this point. And they're out their pick next year.

They're just counting on some of their many draft picks to pop. At the very least, like Fox gives you a North Star to sell to fans. But having said that, I don't know what they're going to be selling to the New York fan base coming off a Nick's title. I think you might just be fucked business-wise for another couple of five years. A New York fan base that just won a finals in large part because of Fox's problems. Yeah, you send him to Brooklyn. That's going to be really hard to get excited about. I think Fox's contract is going to be pretty rough for whoever is in the market to trade for it.

And take that apart out of it, I think there's a pretty decent basketball case that Michael Porter Jr. is just going to be a better player from here on now than Deere and Fox is going to be. They're similar ages, similar points in their career. Michael Porter Jr. is adding things to his game. And everything we're saying about Deer and Fox, granted, played through injury during these playoffs. I don't want to discount that and the effect it had on his efficiency and his stop and go, all of these things. but a lot of it is just like the way he processes the game as a playmaker. And he is, he is a score. He is somebody who can draft off of a playmaking big,

who can work off of, who can play the pick and roll with someone like Victor Webbenyama, certainly. But I don't know that he's a star who really changes your outlook, even if you are a team like the Nets. I think it's more about doing something, right, Kyle? Like maybe I'm underestimating where the Nets are in their trajectory, but I feel like they just have to take a step toward something. Yeah.

If anything, Porter Jr. is probably going to help them. Are you building around him? Yeah, it just kind of feels like he's probably a piece to swap to move forward. You mentioned the Fox salary. I mean, doing a little spot track, Spotrack, whatever it is. Yeah, that Fox deal is in the vicinity of Luca, Seaccom, Anthony Edwards, Tyrese Hallibur. That's the type of money you're talking about. God.

And it's tough because if you were ever going to be in a disadvantageous leverage situation, And it's like watching a team flounder the way that they did in the finals with him at the center. It's like you'd have to give up, you'd probably have to give up like Carter Bryant, the 20th pick, Fox. Like you'd have to give some kind of realest, serious asset up here. My big kind of take finishing kind of bow thing, I think if you're looking at the spurs going forward is I, in kind of conjunction with whether or not Wimby develops some, you know, self-created offense whenever strong teams that are. And that's the other thing too is these teams are acquiring bodies. because the blueprint is there for how to bother Wimby now. So you're going to start to see teams accrue these guys that I don't think that it's a size thing.

I think it's like solid-bodied guys that can move like Mitchell Robertson, Robinson and then Kat, who stop his downhill progress. You're going to start seeing teams try to go get those guys. I think that this Spurs era is going to hinge on whether or not Dylan Harper becomes an above-average primary or an elite primary. because I think ultimately Wimby is going to be like an offensive Pippin type. Granted a very different type of thing. I just think that it's going to be so hard because teams are going to game plan to stop him from getting to his spots.

If Harper can become an elite primary, I think that's the thing that's going to cause them to win a title. Like react to that. What do you all think? I think it's even different than a Pippin thing. Like I get what you're saying spiritually kind of like 1A, 1B or first option versus second option. but responsive.

Like I think it's going to have, he's going to be responsive. But Pippin was driving offense. Like he's a ball handler. I think the difference with Victor Webbenyama is like he needs to be dominant in the way that historical bigs have been dominant, but all of those players had defining post games, whether high or low. And Victor Webbenyama doesn't have that right now. He is a defense first star who creates a bunch of offense because of his size, because of

his talent level, because of his handle. But it's not refined enough yet in a lot of ways that the spurs are not refined enough yet. I want to be careful with this because, I want to thread this needle for all of the criticisms that we're levying at the Spurs, they just got to the NBA finals. They got to the, well, that's the, I mean, yeah, that's crazy. With the bars just so high. Yes.

They have these types of questions. Completely. But the reason, I think it's fair to bring this stuff up with Wembe, with Fox, with Harper, with just the youth of their roster, Champany, like, all of these things we're talking about as far as limitations that they have right now is you just can't count on the fact that you're going to be back. You can't just, like, put it in pen. you have to earn it, you have to change,

you have to grow to get there. If this is the Empire Strikes Back part of the ark, like you got to go out in the wilderness and build that goddamn lightsaber, show up to Jabba's Palace with absolutely no plan and wing it and somehow win. Jesus fucking Christ. Flame Kyle, frankly.

Is this the one with the dual lightsaber? Oh, come on. Don't pretend. Don't get me dork. Don't give me dork condescension when you're talking about mators and cucumbers. Come on. I'm living off the land here, man.

I'm living here in America. Just digging in the dirt. You guys are out in space. You're talking about Jabba walking. I think I've seen them all, but I can't say I've ever been a Star Wars guy myself. You guys are Star Wars guys. I feel like we're like the age group. Definitely a Star Wars guy.

No, yeah. Guilty. Huge. It's not a good kind of guy to be these days, but you know, we are who we are. Times are tough. No, if you're speaking about the like getting back thing. I mean, the, the thunder really amused me. I'll just go check on their, their Reddit and their Twitter kind of stuff.

It's, they're just seething about this and laughing about the Spurs thing too. But they're going to be, I mean, they're going to retool. That's the thing is like they were dinged during that series. They're going to, they're going to become. I think it's pretty possible to Spurs don't get back next year just because I think they're going to be teams getting healthier and getting stronger and it's going to be interesting to see very likely they could. but I just think you can't take for granted getting there the way that they did.

So I don't know. I just think the hierarchy thing really hurt them at different times, whether or not it's like not knowing who gets the ball. Like the Knicks knew we've got a transition sequence here like go like hand off into the stomach of Jalen Brunson like this, you get the ball here. And you saw that time and time again. And you saw some moments of indecision where, you know, where we run like I think Harper is going to have to grow into that guy. And it's interesting because the spurs are just in such an

interesting, like, historical spot where they have, and this might be hyperbolic, I might get struck by lightning for saying this, but they kind of have like a spiritual Kareem on their team and a spiritual Dwayne Wade like, like it's crazy. And they're both under 22, 22 and under. Like, it's going to be, I'm going to be really riveted to see where this goes. Well, just to put a bow on the Harper point, because I agree with what you're saying. Like for him, what is the next step? Is it more decision making? Is it being able to run an offense?

Is it shooting? Is it all the above? Or like, how would you kind of like rank which one is most important for them to take a step? I mean, all of those feel like kind of pieces of the same thing to me. Like right now, I'm not saying he's a tunnel visioned player, but Dylan Harper's scope of what makes him excellent is pretty narrow. It's like between him and the basket, mostly in straight lines through whoever you want to put in front of him. Like, he's better at breaking down individual defenders and scoring through them than almost any guard in the league, frankly, especially guards who are not superstars yet. So it's about, like, how do you balance that incredible, like, scalpel sharp skill with the ability to, okay, I'm now bowels.

I'm now weaponizing that to do what Jalen Brunson did, like looking people off to make me even more potent or hitting the timely passes or passing out of pressure. Like, understanding the bigger picture. So much of being a lead guard is about understanding what. you do in context. And you can't watch a team that has floundered in the way that the spurs have floundered down the stretch of these games and feel like, okay, any of these three guards has a really precise feel on what the team needs in this moment. Like Dylan Harper is frankly too young for that and part of it is taking your lumps, but also part of it is expanding that field of you to get. If I am this good at getting to the rim, this is all the other stuff that this opens up. Yeah. I mean,

the place you want to get to, I think the litmus test for like a superstar, prospect if they if they're on that level is like what's implied about the way they play like offensively i probably said this during our young court thing but it's the way i always look at it where you know you'll see guys coming in the league you'll be like i can do a little bit of everything it's like but there's another level of this guy does this thing so efficiently and at such volume that we got to stop him from doing it and and harper already has that he already has that that make that super trait that you want to have he can get to the room like Rob was saying. And it's a little like Anne Edwards when he came into the league where it was like he was

getting to the rim. And you have that. And so you start on the process of developing the counters to that. And that's going to be, you know, can he hit dribble pull up jumpers? Can he start getting into the minutia that Jalen Brunson has mastered? And I think there was a play that kind of encapsulated that where Harper came around a ball screen and hit the brakes and thought somebody was going to hit him and shoot the ball. It's like those little things. Those are the things that I think he's just really at the beginning stages of figuring out because he's just such an undeniable downhill force. I think he can pass the ball. I think his right hand is going to need to develop a little bit more because you see a lot

of what he does is that initial move get to my right hand. I think that Bridges and OG bothered him down the stretch where he started to anticipate meeting somebody there and that made him miss that last layup. But yeah, just starting on the counters of the playmaking and the shooting and things, he just is going to have to start on the journey of developing those things. Yeah. All right. Why don't we take one more break? We come back. I want to talk through some trends and ripple effects from the Knicks winning. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fanduel. Another NBA season is in the books. But the fun doesn't have to stop there. On the

biggest stage in the world, Fanduel is changing the game because sometimes your player gets subbed off and your bet goes with them. Not anymore with Fandual's super sub. If your player is subbed out, your bet stays in. That's right. If your player leaves the match, your bet continues on with the substitute. So, you're still in it until the final whistle, because in matches like these, anything can happen, and now your bet can go the distance. Visit fandle.com slash ringer NBA to get started now, 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Gambling, gambling problem. Call 1-800-800-8-8-8-9-7-7-7, or visit cccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right. It was a big day for a lot of people. Obviously, New Yorkers, obviously

long-time Nick's fans or Nick's employees. Big day for Alicia Keys. Certainly. The royalties, can you imagine? Did you get hype on that one balcony video at the top where the crowd singing the song? I was like, oh shit, that's a good all-timer. Was worried about the fire escapes. They're a little shaky. Having said that, I'm a little shaky. Having said that, I'm a little bit. I I don't like being in big crowds like that. I don't like being touched by sweaty people. And so I probably would have gotten out of there before that. Well, you would have been on the fire escape, you know?

You're a little perch up there from your ivory tower. I also don't do heights well. So that's a whole other issue. But we're lame for like in Star Wars, right? You're a cool guy. One's of fear, okay? I can't, I have no control over that. Well, we're driven by love and you're driven by fear.

I'm afraid of the world. But I did want to talk about outside of just the, obvious people who celebrated. I want to talk about like what was a big day for these certain things, certain people, certain just aspects of around basketball and whatnot. I think first and foremost, as I was thinking through this, what a big day for the NBA Cup? Because now we really have a nice little body of history here where it does feel like more like a precursor to what will come later in the season, then even what it was sold as was just like, oh, this nice little thing. Like maybe the young teams will get involved and like this will be a showcase for the up

and coming teams to have like a moment when people aren't really watching them. Really what it's become year after year is almost like a early marker of teams that will go on to have success. Like even the first year, Pacers go to the Eastern Conference finals. Last year, Thunder go to that final game. And then this year, obviously we had the two teams that ended up playing in the finals. Like all of a sudden, the cup has some juice. I like it.

Not just the two teams, which I suspect, you know, for the 2026 Cup, we're all going to have that conversation about whoever makes it. They're like, oh, is this an NBA finals preview like it was last year? But it was also like plot point for plot point, almost a replication of the finals, like the Knicks winning in that game with like veteran savvy and physicality and know-how turned out to be exactly the way it played out. So huge win for the NBA Cup, huge win for people like us and people who are invested in the regular season project of the NBA

and any of this stuff meaning anything. Now there's another thing that could potentially mean a lot early in the season. Probably I went for Adam Silver in that particular regard as well. He needs them. He really does. Giving a shit is still in style, you know, in some way, right? You know, the teams that have gone into the cup

and done well, it's these teams that are serious. It's the laissez-faire like, oh, who cares? We'll turn it on. Like, it seems like that's out of fashion, right? Like the Pacers, the, it's the, give a ship meter, you know, the more, you know, redlining it is that it's, that it seems like the cup has been a good indicator of that so far. Well, I'm glad you brought up the Pacers again because I do think that's another thing that probably had a big day here, which is teams that are just like, fucker, we're just going to build the best possible team that we have. We saw the Pacers

last year, Halliburton Pops immediately just go out and get him help and build just a deep, good basketball team that hit its stride and all of a sudden they're back in the finals one win away from winning at all. The Knicks also feel like a similar type of team where, especially considering their history chasing every fucking star every year for so long, all of a sudden we're just like, all right, we have Brunson, we got a guy coming to us, and then they just went out and just built around him steadily, getting the sort of big bodies they needed around him, to stretch around him in order to really highlight who he is. I do wonder, Rob, as we're kind of transitioning to this new era of the CBA,

like is there something there where it's just like teams aren't fuzzing around with the timeline and like punting this pick and that pick or just for instance, just diminishing their possibility of winning in order to potentially get a top pick in the NFTAX, just basically saying like we're just going to be the best version of ourselves and hope that something good comes of it by continually being there in the moment in the playoffs

and just kind of like giving ourselves a shot. I think that's what this era of the NBA basically demands. If you want to zoom out on the eight seasons with eight different champions, this era of parody, we have all kind of stumbled into together. And frankly, that the NBA has engineered with some of its rule changes, the whole idea of we're going to play the long game, we're going to play two timelines. That is like dynastic hubris, right? That's like, oh, we have Steph Curry and Clay Thompson, and Andreemont Green, and Andre Godala.

Fuck it. Let's draft James Wiseman. and like let's slow play this thing so we can roll into another dynasty. It's like hyper decanting, you know? It's like decanting's out. Hyper decanting's out. Not only is hyper decanting out.

Regular decanting is out. The only game in town right now is popping that cork and just swigging from the bottle as fast as you possibly can because like your window is right now. And it may not be there next year. These things are evaporating so quickly in terms of team's ability to even get back to the finals, much less to repeat as champions. Yeah, I think the only unfortunate thing is that perhaps the window to use it almost as an

advantage, almost as a zag against the established way of doing things, might have just like the door closed with this year because of the new tanking rules in place. Whereas like, you're right, it feels like teams are gearing up in order to play in the regular season, God forbid, like we've never seen before. whereas last year, like a third of the league was basically playing for draft picks. They can't do that anymore. Like the Jazz are who they are. Some of these other teams kind of are just going to make the best out of their current situation.

I almost feel like the Knicks and Pacer stumbled upon it when it was kind of a market inefficiency. Now it's just like how you have to operate because you do not know where these picks are going to land. Having said that, like there's probably always going to be teams that do the opposite that try to go against the grain. Like maybe a team like the Nets that doesn't have anything is like, oh, actually, you know, this picks odds of getting the top pick are more diminished, but that's still better than what we have. We'll play for picks while everyone is playing for now. But like it does feel like we're

entering that era of the NBA where it's like, no, just build the best fucking team and let's just like go here. And honestly, I'm looking forward to it. Like the regular season could be awesome next year. There's a bit of attention between those things, though, where if the odds are kind of flattened in terms of the draft possibilities for many different kinds of teams, I don't know that we're going to see a lot of like McHale Bridges style deals, right? Like where you're just throwing a whole trove of picks at a player who is not even an all-star necessarily,

but could be a great finishing piece and turned out to be an amazing finishing piece for your team. There's just like this, I think, a tension between the very aggressive kind of team building that often leads to championship level basketball and the natural restraint that will come from flattened the lottery odds in the first place. Well, it's like the Halliburton and Bronson parallels are interesting.

because Halliburton hadn't signed his max yet, right, when they made a lot of those moves? I think he signed it. Is that right? I'm fuzzy on the timeline admittedly. I think it was before when they built the title, what came to be the finals. Because I think his extension clicked in after the finals. Yeah. And then Brunson's situation obviously being really unique.

Well, that's the whole like rookie QB thing where it's like your rookie player stuck to the rookie scale is exceeding. what a typical player in that age range would do, and so you could allocate that money elsewhere. That still seems, I mean, that's basically what the Spurs did with Fox, for instance. And so, like, you're right. Like, it still is valuable to have a good rookie player above all. Like, if the Mavericks hadn't cluttered their books with so many, like, just league average rotation players, like, they would have that with Flag, for instance.

Yeah, I was trying to think of who else across the league is in that situation. Flag comes to mind, obviously. I'm trying to think of other... Well, the jazz, like the jazz are about to add a top two pick when they've had all this money in Jaron Jackson and lower marketing already. Yeah. So that still seems advantageous. All right, another one I have down here.

Being an asshole to your son, because the Brunson's obviously have a nice little buddy cop thing going on here. To be fair, it's also being an asshole back to your dad. Like, once you've gotten to a certain level of stature, you get to dish it back a little bit. But yes, but. there are also all those like videos of Brunson and his dad on the black top or his dad just like really giving it to him.

Oh yeah. It seemed like he thought something about the way his career went and he knew that he had to get his son to dial in it a way that like perhaps he didn't previously. And so Kyle asked you as a resident dad on the pod. Oh, Jesus. This says anything about the way parents are going to go about teaching their sons from now on. Oh, man. It's funny because they always make sure to include, I'm sure, just to avoid any kind of just chatter that would be annoying for them.

He asked me every day, do I want to do this? They always include that little point in there. Yeah. No, I mean, I don't know. At five, I haven't really entered into like we're serious about any kind of discipline or pursuit or anything. But it's a really interesting dance of, you know, the Bobby Knight. forcing people to learn a certain way model. I feel like that has we've figured out over time as a society.

Maybe certain parents are still clinging to that one. But forcibly, you know, getting people to do skill acquisition just doesn't seem to work in most cases. I know, like I grew up with, there were some forceful dads in our orbit when, you know, in youth sports when I was growing up, Rob, I don't know if you had this experience, but a bunch of those kids, like, we had kids that were like the best guys on our team that had like really, really forceful dads and they quit. A lot of them burned out. Didn't even make it to varsity.

It's a good way to make your kid fucking hate whatever it is you love to behave that way with them generally. I think this is yet another way why like Jalen Brunson is a totally anomalous player. For every Jalen Brunson, there are hundreds, if not thousands of kids who hate their sport because their parent treated them that way. So I guess you could take that as a blueprint if you think you're the one in the thousands, but I would advise against. A lot of NBA parents that have kids. kids that aren't interested in sports.

I remember like I interviewed Stan Van Gunny and we were joking. I was telling him, I was like, yeah, my son, my son would like obnoxiously announce, like, because he thinks it's funny. He'll announce that I'm a basketball expert. That's a pretty funny one that happens. His sense of humor is becoming more and more of a problem. But I was telling Stam Van Guddy, I was like, my son doesn't give a crap about basketball. And he was telling me that his kids, like, don't care at all.

So, I mean, it's kind of a thing of you just wait to see what the interest level is. and then you kind of just, it's a dance of inviting them in, asking them if they want that intensity. And then, you know, I don't know. But hands off is the way to go, man. I feel like the more I like kind of back off and let him acquire the skills. This is a parenting conversation. So trauma isn't having a moment is what you're doing. No, not really.

Flicting trauma specifically. The indirect stuff is still there. It's going to happen. Oh, certainly. Let him think he discovered it himself. And that's the magic. That's how you get him to learn shit. I like that. I like that. All right. It's also a big day for remembering what Leon Rose looks like. I've known this for years.

Yeah. Every time he shows up, I'm like, seriously? You're talking about because this is his first media availability in like five years, you know? Yeah. He definitely, on the dais, he definitely sounded like it as well. I think he could have used a couple practice chops at it, maybe do one press conference a year as opposed to like zero and however many years he's been running things. But yeah, nice to see him. Good job. by you. Absolutely. I'm still just flummox every time that that guy is Leon Rose. Would you want to explain it? What is it? The flummox is here?

He's a, he's a very squat Jewish man as opposed to a black guy. You know what? I'm sorry I asked. You think Leon Rose sounds like a black guy's name. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I mean,

you know many. You saw Jerry Krauss. You saw Jerry Kraus in general. I think some of that. might just be Leon has phased out of style a little bit, you know? Okay. These days they're all Aden's, but spelled counterintuitively. So, like, what can you do?

Okay. So you guys aren't surprised by Leon Rose. I'm just surprised he's a real person and not, like, five people pretending to be Shakespeare, but like, you know. There you go. I think Leon Rose could probably kick your ass, Justin, just looking at him. I'm sure most people can keep on this. I have no shot against most people in the world. You said squawares.

body. I was like, all right, I'm going to defend Leon Rose here a little bit, you know. Low center of gravity. It's got that wide base. He'll be fine. Since we're talking about names, big day for Jailens. Huge. Holy shit. We're in like the apex of Jalen's last three finals, Jalen Brown Finals MVP. Last year, Jalen Williams winning it all. This year, Jalen Brunson being the guy. I have to say, like, is this the peak of all Jalen accomplishments that Jailen? Jalen Brunson led the Knicks to the title, given all the trauma with Knicks fans and all that other stuff.

There's some NFL Jalens too, though, right? Yeah, but they're not as good. But the fact that we're saying there's some NFL Jalins, like if there was one on the level with Jalen Brunson, we'd be. What's the, see, I don't even know that Jalen hurts compares to this.

What did he? Yeah, that's, I'm just going to embarrass myself with lack of football detail knowledge, but yeah. Yeah, they won't. He won the Super Bowl, right? Yeah. But not like this, unless you're just a Philly sicko.

Yeah, he's always been a kind of a mixed bag. I think he's had some success, but even last year, I think he struggled. And so fans are always somewhere in the middle on him. Yeah, we're going to see the Jalen Rose-style spike of babies named Jalen as a result of this moment. A second wave of Jalens. Oh, wow. This is second wave Jalen, new wave Jalen. I think we're going to see a whole wave of Nix fans popping up as,

if there weren't enough of them across the country, across the world as a result of a run like this, like genuinely, I think it's a real thing. And certainly Jalen is going to become a household name in a very different way. Did you all have a sports name in state that was like big in like Texas in Connecticut? What was the,

what were the sports names? Because Kyle is, I'm one of many, many millennials named Kyle because of Kyle Macy for Kentucky. He won the time. Like people, my parents age, a lot of white dudes named Kyle in my state.

I feel like for Texas, it would be like Emmett or Nolan or something like that, but I don't know that I actually knew that many kids named those things. I've been waiting to name my kid Khalid. There's still time. We haven't gotten there yet.

There were a lot of kembas. A lot of kembas. Not necessarily. Like humans, a lot of dog kembas. Oh, sure. Kempba's a great dog's name. Yeah. Get the vowel sound.

I can't say people who name their dogs. have the vowel sound at the end of the dog name. Yeah. I have... Disagree? Rob, you got a consonant dog? Is that what you're saying? I mean, I technically do have a consonant dog, but it is a vowel sound.

So I guess we kind of skirted the rule on that. Okay. Small guards I have down here, we talked about that. Abstinence? Big time for abstinence. You're assuming they adhered to it. Yeah, apparently Jim Dolan. I don't know if you guys caught this in the Indian Begley story.

jokingly, in air quotes, was like, you guys should refrain for sex throughout the entire playoffs. I was just thinking to myself, like, what if Bill went up to Rob and just like this entire playoffs of Paws, you just can't afford a game? I just keep thinking through. He wouldn't bother. Rob's such an animal. It's like Bill would just be like, it's not worth you. I'm so uncomfortable.

I have nothing to say about any of this. Let's keep it moving. The ringer's top 100 Because the top spot in our rankings is just like impossible to figure out To the point where we did an initial wave of ranking I think after game four And it was split between six voters Two for Wembe at the top spot

Two for Yokic, two for Shea And now we're at the point where it's split two ways between Shea and Yokic Wemby has fallen off. But because Wemby is number two on every ballot, I think like he might be number one. So we have to break a weird tie scenario. You guys will find it out on Tuesday. I'm sure everybody's just on pins and needles waiting for this to happen. Well, nothing gets the people more hot and bothered just in then rank choice voting.

Like that's really what gets the blood pumping. That's right. Portland in particular. So I think it's just tougher than ever to figure out who the best player in the league is right now. because I think you could make a case for all three of those guys where you fall, I think depends on like probably where you were going into the playoffs as opposed to like even some of the things that like happened later on. Yeah, I think we've learned a lot about a lot of different players.

And guys like Kat, for example, I think have moved out tremendously in kind of the public understanding and imagination. I don't know that we learned a ton about Yokic that we didn't already know. And I don't, I frankly don't even know that we learned a ton about Shay that we didn't already know other than when several of his teammates are hurt he can't get past a team as good as the spurs which fair enough well i'm weird about yokic so i obviously tread cautiously in this conversation but um you're not i still think that there's a there's a yokech there's another strong yokech outing i feel like i feel like that a year from now do you think how much do you think

he could recalibrate that conversation and say i'm back bitches is that is that in place easily he's he's Nicole Yokic. Like, he's fucking awesome. If he's not the best player in the world, he's the second best player in the world. Not according to our rankings. Yes, I think it really depends on how much they sort things out over the offseason. It just feels like their team could be completely upended in certain ways, or they just need to find a way to finally pay for what is an appropriate supporting cast.

But Payton, Washington's day, they should open up space for him somehow, and that should be it. but it's just not going to be as simple as that. And so, like, I already talk about trading Aaron Gordon because teams want him over, you know, Cam Johnson or Jamal Murray or something like that. So let's see what happens in the off season. But if they figure it out, obviously, I think they have another, another go at this. Can I throw some other small victory winners at you, Justin? Yeah, I have one more, but go ahead.

Well, let's hear your grand finale. What do you have left? We'll end on mine. Okay. How about the clutch gene? Believers in the clutch gene. Do we feel more confident that there is an inextricable thing that Jalen Brunson has that other players don't? But you say that, but Deer and Fox literally won the reward for Clutch Player of the Year.

But that was our misidentification of the gene. One of the more incredible ironies ever. Yeah, that's like, wow. Did you have more on that? Hold on I kind of just, I think the Clutch Gene is like most sports conversations, but also basketball discourse, which is like, clearly there's something there that allows a player to rise in the biggest moments. Maybe it's even just like dispositional. Maybe it's like the ability to handle pressure.

Maybe it's just like your anxiety levels or something like, like it exists. But it got to the point where it became kind of an in joke where it's like, huh, clutch genius. It's this silly frivolous thing that we all ascribe to someone just because they happen to have a lot of highlights in those moments. and so I think like recalibrating it to the point where it's like yeah Jillen Brunson comes through when it matters like I think I think we're back to an appropriate level of the clutch tree I like that we just needed to reclaim it from the people who like have those reputations but shot 32% in crunch time like we can take it back we can take anything back other winners of this postseason other small victories

Casey Smith had athletic trainer for the New York Knicks was chased out of Dallas by Nico Harrison fired over Zoom while he was attending to his ill parents guess what the Knicks just had a very healthy playoff run and also historically great one. So shout out to Casey Smith. Mavs fans really hate. Is that the, because there's a lot of disdain for like Mavs training. Of course, they fired the whole staff recently, right? First they fired Casey Smith and some of his staff.

Casey Smith, one of the most well regarded trainers and medical professionals in the sport, like has worked with Team USA for many years. So it's like very, very strange thing that Nico Harrison did before the other many strange things Niko Harrison did. But having said that, I agree with you that that is a nice little victory lap for Casey. But then Brunson winning on the stage after letting him go doesn't reflect like great on the previous regime. Oh, sure.

Because like, I don't know. I think everyone wants to describe this as a purely Nico Harrison thing. But I feel like Mark Cuban's track record is more checkered than it is good. Like, and he comes off trying to like take victory laps on like all the good things that happen. Like, I didn't do Luca. Like, there was a lot of stuff going on in Dallas for many, many years. The best thing that ever happened to Mark Cuban's PR was Nico Harrison.

Like, let's be very real about it. Yeah. I thought you were saying cost plus drugs. Maybe so. That remains to be seen on that one. How about this for other winners, the Eastern Conference? Like, I have been a proponent of Western Conference supremacy for a long time. If you want to look at regular season record, it still tilts pretty heavily over basically

any time frame you want to look at. Four and four in the last NBA finals, East versus West. Yet another win for the era of parody in the NBA, I guess. I do think it helps that the West is a bit of a bloodbath. You know, the Spurs having to go through the Thunder is something that the Knicks didn't have, like as a little crucible there. And so that helps. But that's more of a reason why I was so flummoxed by certain teams not hitting the button,

the pistons in particular, to take advantage of the window. Like, if the path is easier there, you've got to take advantage of it. of it. And now the Pistons, like, I mean, we don't have to do, like, future power rings for next year or whatever, but like, they're starting from behind in a place where they probably should have been dominating the league this year, the East this year. It's true. It was kind of their shot, but they, they turn out to be flawed in a way that we're going to see if they can reconcile. Yeah. I, you hit on most of the ones that I was thinking about. The only other one that I have that's not really serious is Nike commercials, big win. Huge.

capitalism is back. Yeah. Huge went for Chipotle in these finals, fueling McHale Bridges' entire life. Oh, that's right. What is it with Chipotle specifically that people just have to have it daily? There was like the Danny Hange thing.

There's several apps. You better be careful because that's a sponsorship. I wouldn't turn down. Watch it now. No, I don't even think we're throwing asperses. I think it's like it is, first of all, it's like at the top of the slop-bowl mountain, I think, as far as modern capitalist

lunches go, reliable in every market in America. Like, you can just go find your little bowl of slop, eat it down, be somewhat healthy if you choose to do that. And then Michael Bridges' case, get all the carbs you need to be a professional athlete. No aspersions of a bowl of slop. That's just what it is, is it not? Here's my thing with Chipotle. I actually think I would go more if they stopped giving me so much.

Like, they think abundance is like what people are after. If anything, it's just like, you can't even wrap the burrito now. Like, it's just, it's just falling out whenever they give it to me. I just want a contained, like, good thing, not something that's just, like, going to slop all over my hands. Justin, I feel like you're disconnected with America. I feel like, as the rest of the country is complaining that, like, oh, Chipotle is shrinking their portions.

You're like, give me less food for my money, please. I'll tell you the God honest truth here. It's that Moes is the best restaurant of all those restaurants in that category. It's simply not true. The salsa bar, excellent. They have so many options there. They're hitting it out of the park. It's just, and you get Kudova, been on the downward slide.

Cuedova's not good. Yeah. But in total, capitalism back. Nike ad. The Sapti ad was, no. The golden air is great, legitimately great. The golden air of the Wyden Kennedy Nike TV ads. We had one like, there was just a crazy, there was an ocean of them, just great ads.

And I just don't feel like it's been, that was nice to see. I watched that. I was like bull's eye. The only one I have down here is the Baja men. I feel like they're back. Sure. We were talking about it when it happened. But like Mike Brown,

he went for it. And I respect it. You know, okay, it was a little fun thing that they did. Love to see a little color show on that, which is a very state. Definitely.

Situation around the day is like just giving can quotes. But then he kept going. Like he took two laps and I was like, brother like you're doing a little much how many you got to do is go for it and you're off the hook is that what we're establishing here you're like well he went for it it's like you should so every single time in every situation if i just go for it you guys are going to love it obviously not like don't turn this into a tim robinson sketch like i'm saying if if you're a champion you're allowed to live a little i don't mind revealing your personality and doing whatever you want in that moment

because it is your moment. I think it's like just knowing like what is what is like acceptable and like just not cringe worthy, I guess, like to keep going to make it a bit like a 10 minute thing where it becomes a little uncomfortable. I think that's when it's. I think ideally if you are going to let the dogs out, you need one round of the who's and then you got to get out of there. Like you got to eject after that thing.

It's an in and out for sure. Yeah. All right. We'll be back later in the week. I think Wednesday or Thursday, we're still trying to figure out our schedule going forward here. But thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Boykley.

And thank you to Victoria Valencia. I mean, especially for the triple, if not quadruple over time that they have been pulling all playoffs long. Like we get on here on the mic and just like spew our takes and get out of here. But incredibly grateful for the work that they do.

Incredibly grateful for the two of you. This has been, I mean, honestly, an awesome playoff run. I love doing this pod with y'all. Who let the dogs out? It's all of us on this pod of people, behind the scenes, people in front of the camera. We're all dogs.

And all dogs go to heaven. Just make sure that your name ends with a vowel sound. With a vowel, exactly. You got people to it. All right. See you next time. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming.

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