The Ringer NBA Show - James Harden Nets Trade Reaction & 'Ringer NBA University' Premiere | Ringer NBA University

Episode Date: January 14, 2021

Kevin O’Connor, Jonathan Tjarks, and J. Kyle Mann host the newest show on the 'Ringer NBA Show' feed, 'Ringer NBA University'. The show starts with a Ringer NBA live special instant reaction show where the guys discuss the four-team trade involving James Harden going to the Brooklyn Nets (0:47). Then they discuss the top rookies so far (33:01), including guys drafted outside the lottery that have been impressive. After that, they talk about a potential future no. 1 overall pick (01:38:58). Hosts: Kevin O’Connor, Jonathan Tjarks, and J. Kyle Mann Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Kevin O'Connor. I'm so happy to introduce the Ringer NBA show's brand new podcast, Ringer NBA University. Every other Wednesday, I'll be joined by Jonathan Charks and Jay Kyle Mann to discuss the NBA's younger players, their development, team fit, anything to do with their situation. That'll all be coming up after our instant reaction to the James Hardin four-team super blockbuster deal involving the Houston Rockets, Brooklyn Nets, Indiana Pacers, including. leaving Cavaliers in Oladipo being sent to the rockets. What a wild deal.

So we're going to have that conversation first. And then we're going to get into our full episode of Ringer NBA University, which was recorded earlier on Wednesday morning. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show, Instant Reaction Show. We're here to obviously react to the James Harden four-way blockbuster trade. This is the Ringer NBA University crew. We recorded a pod earlier today that'll be a... out later today talking about a bunch of young players, but we get to react to this.

I'm Kevin O'Connor. That's Jonathan Charks. That's Jay Kyle, man. How are you guys doing feeling about this crazy trade? I'm shocked. I'm still like my head. I'm trying to figure out where everyone's going. There's so many moving pieces.

It's really nuts. Let's detail that for the watchers here. Okay. So here's the details we get. For Houston, they're getting Victor Lodipo from Indiana, Dante X-M from Cleveland, rodeon's crew roots from Brooklyn, then three. Three unprotected first round picks from the Nets in 2022, 22, 24, and 26. A Milwaukee first round pick in 2022.

And then four Nets, first round pick swaps in 2021, 23, 25, and 27. So they're getting eight first round picks with Oladipo, Exim, and Kouroutes. The Nets, they're getting James Hardin. Simple. Pacers are getting Caris Levert in a second rounder. The Cavaliers are the fourth team in this deal, getting Jared Allen and Tarane Prince. We'll get to Cleveland later, but we're going to start off, obviously, with the Brooklyn Nets, the team getting James Hardden. This is clearly an all-in-risk here to give it all up, all your future picks, some nice young players in Jared Allen and Karis Levert, but it's for a chance for at least two years, maybe up the four or five, of having a title window.

Kyle, what's your first thought as soon as the news came down that Hardin was going to Brooklyn? Well, it's something that we've been kind of preparing ourselves to think about for a while now, right? But even when it came, it's just kind of, it's, it's such a huge seismic, planetary level shift basketball-wise, because these are three guys that I think they are three of the most skilled self-creator scores alive right now, all in the same lineup. My mentality, my mind immediately goes to, can you think of another lineup? I mean, I don't even, even Miami's big three didn't have this creative level of being able to create their own offense. That's where I go immediately and I start thinking about how it's going to fit together. I don't know.

What do you guys think? Yeah, I mean, I guess I wonder if three level score is like a cliche now, but like that is what this is. It's just so rare to have three guys who can create from like three point line all the way to the rim. I don't see how you guard them. But then I'm also wondering, what's up with Kyrie? Like, that's the first thing pops into my mind. I mean, I don't know if you saw what Woj tweeted. It was very suspicious talking about no matter what happens with Kyrie,

now Katie is James Hardin, and Steve Nash saying, well, he'll be back this year, quote unquote, sure. That's the part that makes you kind of like, what's happening with that part of this? I guess we don't really know is no way to know right now. I mean, to my understanding, so this past week or so, there's been some conversation around the league that maybe Houston and especially their GM Raphael Stone

wasn't really totally willing to, deal hard in here and that there is some reason for them to wait until closer to the deadline or even until next off season. But it seems like partially due to Kyrie doing what he's doing, going away from the team with them not really understanding what's going on. Everybody's confused there that that sort of increased the urgency from Brooklyn to get something done here. It increased the urgency from Philadelphia to try to beat out Brooklyn knowing that

they were going harder. So I think Woj's tweet there about him alluding to. at least now they have Hardin, is the truth here. I mean, if Kyrie comes back and he's bought in the way he says he was going to be before this whole thing this past week, you have a three-headed monster here. And, you know, there's a lot of risk here. There's a lot to talk about like for Brooklyn, who plays center now. Jared Allen was completely outplaying DeAndre Jordan.

And now you lack some depth there. Maybe in a postseason setting, you'll see them go with Jeff Green at the five. You'll see a lot more of that and maybe that was part of the plan. But ultimately for this team, having Hardin and Durant is enough to be a finals contender if you're able to get Kyrie straight with this team. You know, Hardin for years in Houston now has become a guy who dominates the ball, who runs pick and roll, who runs isolations, who has this reputation as a guy who just stands around without the ball in his hands. But look at what he was early in his career in OKC. that was a guy who was dynamic off the ball running through screens and handoffs getting himself open for shots without the ball in his hands. And I wonder now that he's gotten what he wanted, will he commit to that and do more of that in addition to everything else, the brilliance he brings on the ball?

Because that's what's going to have to happen. There needs to be sacrificed between Katie and Hardin and Kyrie once he eventually comes back if he comes back. I think that's the key thing. Because if you look at all the guys he's played with in Houston, I mean, you know, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, those guys aren't KD. It's a whole different level we're talking about giving the ball to Kevin Freak and Durant. And that's what I'm really excited about is that partnership.

At this point, the Kyrie thing, it's like, all right, whatever, man. Harded and KD on the same team, that is unbelievable. The pick and roll between those two guys should score every single time. Like, how could you possibly guard that pick and roll? Yeah, and all three of them enter, or if they do get to, to play together. I mean, you're, you have interchangeability among who you could, you could start at the point of attack, run, pick and roll with Hardin, run pick and roll with Durant. You can, I mean, they just have so many different ways that each guy can create their own shot. I'm kind of curious

about like the flow, the movement within their offense because all three of these guys are tough shot makers. That's like how they make their living. Like Hardin, I would love to see like a graph. I know that like second spectrum has done a lot of like tracking data on speed and and my, travels on offense. I feel like the, you know, the Harden that you were referencing in OKC, I feel like his graph has just steadily gone down as he's sort of like gotten more of, I don't know for ergonomic, but just sort of a management of, of his movement. He conserves himself a lot more more more. I'm really curious about, and Durant looks a lot more mobile now too. So just the movement within their offense, that's going to be really something interesting to

watch. Does this Brooklyn team have enough defense to win at all? Or do they need to add more here, you know, with buyouts, through other small trades, or with like this top seven, top eight rotation here, you know, Kyrie Hardin, Jeff Green, Kevin Durant, DeAndre Jordan, you know, Joe Harris, maybe Nick Claxton's getting some minutes. My guy. Luawo's in there. Bruce Brown. I mean, you know, if you're going, you know, if you're completing that rotation with whatever mix of eight, nine guys there are, is that enough? Like, does this

Nets team have enough? And for the sake of the question, let's assume Kyrie, comes back. And let's assume when it matters most in the playoffs that he's around and he's there and he's present. Is this enough with this group? Or do the Nets need to do more here between now and the end of the bio period before the playoffs? See, my first thought, now that I kind of like thinking about this team, I think it goes back to KD. I think you're going to need him to be more of an all-around player without, especially without Prince and Allen, because those are kind of the role-playing defensive guys who kind of did all the little stuff. But now like Katie has to guard like LeBron in the finals.

Like there's nobody else to do it on this roster anymore. Katie's going to have to guard, have to move the ball. It's all like the stuff that in Golden State, kind of. Like that extra, all the hidden parts of his game, which he did before. Like the scoring part, it doesn't matter. Like he'll get his points. They're going to score a trillion points. But yeah, I think it comes down to KD for defense and playmaking.

And that's me right now. And rebounding too. Because Pete KD, you know, think back to when he was in Golden State, they played him at the five a bit. Yeah. Pete Kevin Durant on defense is one of the greatest. defensive players of all time. If you're taking, it's like Ben has done with his video series of all time peaks, thinking basketball on YouTube. He talks about the moment the player was their best.

Katie, his peak was probably in those finals of Golden State where he's playing the five and doing everything offensively. It's a lot to ask a guy coming back from an Achilles injury to do that. And yet the Katie, the version of Kevin Durant, we've seen thus far going even back the preseason, he looks a lot like Kevin Durant. So you might get that version that you're talking about sharks. Kyle, I'm curious about your thoughts with Brooklyn, like, is there more that needs to be done here? Or do you agree here that it is largely due to obviously hard on adapting, but also KD leveling up to that peak level we saw in the past? Yeah, I mean, in terms of like Achilles reparation and coming back, I mean, on offense, you can kind of pick your spots and

kind of pick how you attack and things like that. On defense, you know, talking about, talking about defensively him leveling up to that. I think that that is a significant higher challenge. I'm kind of wondering who, I mean, who guards, who guards like really immense downhill pressure in this group? Like, who is guarding at the point of attack of these three? And what kind of lineups are they going to have to put out there? I mean, are we going to see more Bruce Brown? Yeah. And is it going to put more pressure on DeAndre Jordan on the five on that back line? And how do they alleviate some of those concerns? Yeah, like, I'm going to match some of my head right now in the East. So when they play Boston, right, it's going to have to be Katie on Jason Tatum.

when they play Milwaukee, they'll have to be KD on Yannis. If they play Miami, it's not to be KD and Jimmy Butler. You go through these matchups, it's just got to be KD now. And a little bit of Jeff Green sprinkled in there, too. I mean, a lot of Jeff Green. Like, this is like Jeff Green is suddenly super, super important to this team. One of the real winners of the deal in the Nets is definitely Joe Harris.

He's going to get open gym shots around those guys. And with Houston here, you know, everything this lasts, you know, what, two hours? you know this we've been at this i don't know time time is so distorted right now with everything going on and basketball and in the world uh and with this team getting victorola depot and eight first round draft picks here eight eight and granted four of them are swaps but still they're unprotected and if you're talking late you know 2020s the nets there's no guarantee they'll be any good by that point they're like this could be a significant hall for them and it does make up a little bit for losing what you did in the cp3 westbrook trade granton you're giving up

But with them, they're going to remain at least competitive with John Wall and Victor Oudipo and Christian Wood and P.J. Tucker. But it's really not about that, though. It's all about these picks. And we don't know what the value is going to be. With Houston, do you feel like they made the right choice here in taking the pick-based package with Ola Depot rather than a package built around Ben Simmons and possibly a maxi in that deal with not quite as many first round draft picks? Yeah, I mean, that's the big debate that's broken out. And I feel like there's been an emerging kind of question and thought process about when you're dealing with moving stars. It doesn't work.

How much do you really come out ahead when you have this glut of picks? Hard to say where they're going to be. I mean, I saw like, what's the latest date on those picks year-wise? There's 2027, I think. 2028, I believe, was the last one. Oh, 20-27. So just to reiterate those first-round draft picks. they're getting three unprotected first from Brooklyn in 2022, 24, and 26.

Milwaukee first in 2022 and then swaps in 21, 23, 25, and 27. And those swaps are also on protected. If the Nets have the number one pick in 2027, Houston will have the right to swap that. They have a lot of ammo. KFC, I even have more math for you. So they got, what, two picks for Covington, one pick for Westbrook, and they're out four picks for Westbrook from the OKC trade, right? So it's like it ends up being like, I don't even know how many picks are that going.

Like 11 total? It's like a net result kind of a thing. But you're, but you seem to favor this though over Ben Simmons charts. That's that's the debate. No? Yeah, I don't know. Not so sure there? I'm not totally sure either.

I don't know. What, uh, which package? I'm undecided on that. It's, it's unclear what exactly it was in like the final moments. But from what I understand, Houston wanted this from Philadelphia. And that's Simmons, Maxi, Fibble, with three first-round draft picks. From what I understand, that's what they're demanding. Would they get that?

No. No, they wouldn't. And Darrell Morey wasn't giving that up. But that's what I understand Houston was demanding it. I think the variable is that they have their picks out to Oklahoma City. I think in a pick neutral world, you want Simmons. But when you have all your picks already out, that kind of changed your dynamic a little bit. Because you don't want to be rebuilding without your.

picks out. That's just tough. Regardless of the other option there, I feel like, you know, you never want to trade a superstar player. You never want to trade James Hart. And it so rarely works out that you're trading the best player in a deal. But if I'm a Rockets fan, I got to feel like you're getting pretty good value back considering the circumstances. All these first round draft picks give you so much flexibility moving forward, especially those mid-2020s, late 2020s picks from the nets. Those could be good assets for future trades down the line. And, you know, having Ola Dipo, he's looked better this year. He's looked pretty good, not all the way back to his All-Star

self, but, you know, 75, 80% of the way there, he could even be flipped at some point if needed. That's what I was wondering. Like, you know, what are we thinking like, do they want to go for it this year? Because Ola Depot and Tucker house maybe a little bit too, they could all get you more value coming back in if you want to really rebuild. Sure. And, and that, that, that, That'll be interesting here. And, you know, Kyle in the pod today we recorded, we talked a little bit about the draft with Evan Mobley and article, Charks wrote about. And for Houston, right now they don't have a good record. This makes them a worst team having a Willa Depot instead of Hardin.

For them, again, you don't want to trade Hardin, but there is a little bit of incentive here to be bad in what is a good draft class. So that's, I think, a little cherry on top for the Rockins to have better draft odds in a year like this. Yeah, I guess the question is, how bad? you know, that's always the question because at the very top there are some guys that are, you know, like what I call context changing players. I think Mobley's that type. Obviously, Cade Cunningham's that type. I don't know that they're going to dip down into that low stratosphere. I was, or basement. Something that's interesting for me is that, you know, you start thinking about like competition in the Eastern Conference for this Nets group. but I mean, what do you guys think about like just looking way down the road, like speculating like a potential like, let's say the Lakers in the Nets met in the finals?

How is that, what does that matchup look like? I think like Charks mentioned earlier, Katie's going to have to defend LeBron. You're going to have to see a lot of that. As for who defends AD. Yeah, I mean, that's the question. You know, that's a tough question there. And DeAndre Jordan, you know, he's, you better hope the Lakers have Marcusole or Montrose Harrell out on the floor. Ultimately, this is why I come back to with Brooklyn.

There's probably more moves to be made there for them. And they can't be done here. There will be buyout candidates who emerge. Names were not thinking about even. They got to make some moves around the edges to round this roster out. I do one of the finals odds. I'm thinking about like a Lakers net's finals, right? The Lakers played incredible defense.

I mean, what they did last year in that bubble was like, that was like elite, elite, elite defense. But at this level of the game now, it almost feels like that this kind of feel like the LeBron Kyrie Cavs team where like they just cannot be guarded this Nets team like it's just not guardable I don't think right even with the Lakers

defense yeah the variables are just too high I mean at every spot you got you got guys that can elite and just improvise at the absolute highest level to you know MVP level guys assuming that I mean do we agree that like Durant is still MVP level like 100%

pretty close pretty close maybe not a hundred percent, but I believe Steve Nash had a quote around training camp. He said, if not, you know, 99%, 90%, something like that. And I agree with that assessment. I do think the Nets can dictate styles now. Like, you're going to have to be the Nets 145, 140. You're just not going to grind them down and slow them down because they can score from

so. They're like the chiefs almost, right? They can score from sewing in parts of the field. It's not possible to guard them. Or they're like the seven seconds or less sons, which is a lot of offense, not a lot of defense, obviously more star power here, more improvisational players as you mentioned Kyle, at the highest level. And for them, you know what?

They're still there. They're still there in finals contention. Obviously, even without defense, without questions there, they could outscore teams on their way to a finals victory. With Indiana here, their team that in recent weeks that, you know, better than expected, Sabona seems to be taking a leap. Miles Turner is put in his name in the defensive player of the year conversation with Oladipo getting better, the stuff about him wanting out.

was not gone. That stuff was real and definitely was one of the reasons why Indiana did this. You know, from a pacer's standpoint with their involvement here, Charks, how do you feel about the swap of Oladipo for LaVert? And can Levert give more provided the opportunity in this new Indiana system? I think the main thing is it's kind of like keeping the machine going, right? They flip George for Oladipo. They know O'Dipo's going to leave, let's flip it again from their good young player. Because we know we're talking about as O'ODipo back.

I think he could really be back in Indiana because after he left, it became Brogden and Sabonis's team, more or less, right? Yeah, yeah. So he's coming back, he's kind of more of like a third wheel. He was just not going to be happy there.

And there was kind of an inevitable divorce coming. So in that sense, I think you just spin it forward. Levert probably gives you, I don't know, because they have a lot of three points shooting. Lever can slash take advantage of that space. He gives you probably a little more versatile defender,

a little bigger. I think it's probably a net even trade for them, but it keeps them where they want to be. It doesn't, because he was leaving. either way, I think. Yeah. I mean, it gives you, like you said, and it gives you something new to experiment with and potentially like locker room and chemistry matter a lot. I mean, that seems like an obvious thing to say. So overall, I think like you said, like I think it's a net, good move for

Indiana. I like it. And he's bigger, like you said. And some of the more, the less major pieces evolved in the deal, Jared Allen going to Cleveland in this. And that's a loss for Brooklyn. Jared Allen's been really good. He was killing it. Oh, yeah, he's been great. I mean, I thought Steve Nassville. made a tough but correct move and inserting him into the starting lineup over D'Andre Jordan. You know, with Allen, he is another piece of a bunch of bigs now with Cleveland. They look like a team to me that could possibly move some guys at some point. And maybe Cleveland becomes a team that's trading at Drummond or trading even Larry Nance or Kevin Love at some point if he's able to stay healthy.

Cleveland, good for them to get Jared Allen. Obviously, they aren't the focus on this. With James Hardin, how are you remember his era in? Houston Charks. You're a Texas guy, Dallas guy, you know, you're close, same state. You hear it on the radio stations. How do you feel like you're going to remember them? How do you think Rockets fans and Texas people will remember him? Thousand yard stare. Charks is like really, really are. It's a beautiful day in Dallas. I'm enjoying the view. I'm just thinking. You know what I think. Join the view of them not being good.

I think it'll be underrated. I really, I'll remember them as like a player and a team that really pushed the envelope, really kind of changed the way the game was played. I mean, he had one of the greatest, I was it eight years, eight year run, never won at all. There was never that much talent around. As you go back on those teams, there was never, there was maybe one or two good players, but they're playing the Warriors down two stars, basically, and they played them to a draw. I like, I guess for me, it's like, it'd be like if Dirk didn't win it in Dallas, it'd be sad, but like, those are some great years and I respect the heck out of what they did down there. Yeah, I mean, I remember we did a notebook recently where we were talking about the greatest,

like, didn't we do something that was like the best offensive teams of the past 10 years or something like that? And the Rockets, they just ran up against like a historically, historically special Warriors team. And, you know, you were talking about just like outscoring everybody. People often forget that like those Warriors teams at their apex were at the top of the league defensively too. So it's like you can you can score a lot of points, but you really, really, really. do have to stop people. It's it. That's, you know, I don't know, that that's, that's the biggest

question looming over this, uh, that and just kind of how they fit together. Yeah. You know what? And with, with Hardin and Houston, that whole era, I've always been somebody who's defended him, you know, with my co-host on the mismatch, Chris Vernon. We've argued about him so many times over the years. And I've always loved James Hardin. I've always appreciated him as a player and think that era. I get to give credit to Hardin, to, to Mori, to that organization for being the team going for it. There was a moment when the Warriors got KD and people said, oh, maybe teams should

punt the next couple of years. Maybe they shouldn't try to win a championship. Build for when KD's gone. Houston said, screw that. We're going for it. They went to a game seven. They went to a game six. And if maybe a couple things happened differently, if they don't have an 0 for 27,

if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt, maybe they make the finals and win it all. They were right there and they had some incredible runs. And James Hardin was the reason, the main reason, for those runs. And to me, I think Harden right now is a player who he's going to go to Brooklyn, going to have an opportunity to make another run here and really redefine who he is and what his legacy is. And so I look forward to that after some of the slandering he's been through over the years

with the Houston Rockets. This is an opportunity to build something new. And I think he's going to show new dimensions to his game that are actually the old dimensions of his game when he was younger in OKC. So that's exciting to think about. Yeah, KOC, they always gave us content. Is there a higher compliment than that? Oh, my. How quickly do we think he's in like incredible shape? Or do what do you think he does with his body in the rest of the season?

Do you think he like really goes full bore and just tries to get an incredible shape? Or do we still see Rick Ross, James Harding? What do you think? He's definitely not an ideal shape right now. What does it take? I've lost I've lost 20 pounds and like two and a half months now. Okay, Kevin O'Don Diet. Now we're talking good, Convin.

here. What does the guy do, KOC? Kevin O'C. My diet is riding a sit-down stationary bike while playing Madden. Yeah. I think Hardin can handle that. That would be in his wheelhouse. I also eat healthy and I don't drink.

I'm not sure. Hopefully for Hardin he's able to cut out the clubs. Hopefully he's able to eat healthy. Well, you go to Brooklyn. That's a good thing. Shouldn't be a hard problem at all. Go to New York City and put that out. Health conscious up there.

A lot of vegan, you know, food, a lot of options. There's also a pandemic. And hopefully he starts, you know, doing the right thing there. But ultimately for Hardin, got to get in shape by the postseason. If he's in shape of day before the postseason, that's what matters to answer your question, Kyle. But I don't know, maybe a couple months you'd hope at that point because developing chemistry does matter. And getting him early now does them does give the team more time to get after making each other. I'm thinking what you're saying about legacy.

And I think that's a good point because we're all going to be so focused on this season. but I think this extends Hardin's career indefinitely because Hardin KD, if they can stay healthy, can play pretty much forever, right? Their games are not based on being great athletes. Their games are based on size and skill. That's not going away. These guys can play together for like three, four,

five years that are really, really, really high level. And I'm really excited for that more than anything. Offensively, yeah, I'd say that's true. I mean, I think that they're two guys that, yeah, don't have, like, cook you in space, kind of dependency on getting buckets. Kyrie, on the other hand, I think, is going to run into some issues, I think, because based on what we've seen about, like, guys under a certain height that are ball

dominant, that that's where they draw a lot of their value. They kind of do fall off of a cliff in their, like, early 30s. It'll be interesting to see if he can, like, overcome that the way CP3 did, but they play totally different. So, yeah, I definitely think that it affects Harden and Durant differently than it would, say, hypothetically, Kyrie. Do you guys have any final thoughts, maybe something we didn't touch on or something that's just on your mind that we didn't mention earlier.

Tarks will, you know, start with you before we head out of here. I think we got it all. I mean, I think we got it all. I don't know. I think we got it covered a lot of stuff. Maybe talk, maybe I'll come back. Go to Kyle first.

Same. Yeah. The personality fit is just going to be, I mean, social media fire for the next long while. I mean, I think we have, we have a team that is going to be so really, really historically interesting in a way that, you know, we take for granted that we just don't seem

many MVP level players on the same team. It's only happened. It's happened under 10 times in history. I'm pretty positive. So watching that and then you throw the wild card of Kyrie in there and then his situation, it's going to be something to monitor. Hopefully it gives us an injection of fun that we need right now, I think. My final thought here is it's a name we didn't mention Christian Wood. Christian. Hey, you're late. Your corner. I'm curious to see how his production changes because he's put up borderline all-star numbers so far this season, partially playing off of Hardin in that pick and roll. How does his usage change with Victor Oladipo and John Wall

dominating the ball more often? Because he's been one of the bright spots on that team, because, you know, despite Houston having a three and six start, this team isn't a team without any promise. Wood looks terrific. John Wall looks more like his pre-injury self. You get guys like J. Sean Tate who are coming off the bench and looking really good. this Houston team, this isn't, you know, some dumpster fire here despite what just happened

with James Harden. There's still some talent on this team that I look at. I get excited about. And so with the Houston Rockets, whenever they're back, you know, and they're all, you know, back on the court with, you know, now Victor Oudipo, I'm excited, dude. I think this team is still going to be competitive. You know, they're not one of the best teams in the West. They're on the playing tournament bubble probably at best. But hey, man, it's not always about the Ws and and sometimes it's just about the development. And that's why with this podcast we're doing, Ringer NBA University,

I'm super, super excited to be doing this with you guys. Hope everybody that's watching us live right now, listens to that, and everybody who's listening to this on the podcast in the future when it's up, keep on listening to this show. We'll be back every other Wednesday with Ringer NBA University. I'm Kevin O'Connor.

That's Jonathan Charks and Jay Kyle Mann. Thank you, everybody, for watching. All right, so now it's time for Ringer NBA University. be as I said up top, this is a podcast focusing on young players, development, fit, everything to do with their current situation. We want to focus on who's next rather than just the news of the day. So not only are we going to discuss guys like John Morant, we'll spend time on a Brandon Clark. We'll talk about Jaylen Brown, but we're also going to analyze Peyton Pritchard and Grant Williams.

And we'll also spend time talking about college and international prospects. And we're definitely going to be ramping up the draft talk as we approach lottery night and the draft itself. If it wasn't clear during that introsection, a reaction to the hardened trade, I'm pretty excited to be doing this with Charks and Kyle. These two guys are my co-workers here at the Ringer, but they're also my friends. Charks is one of the smartest basketball writers out there, and he's never afraid to state his opinions even when it goes against the grain. And Kyle makes incredible NBA video breakdowns for the Ringer that both educate and entertain. And he brings that same type of mentality to podcast. I don't think there's anything.

better than the stuff that's educational and entertaining. And we're really excited to be doing Ringer NBA University together every other Wednesday here on this podcast feed, The Ringer NBA Show. And on today's episode, we're going to discuss some of the most impressive rookies so far, the progress of the Knicks young guys, mid-to-late first-round draft picks who are already looking like major steals, and a potential number one pick in the 2021 draft. All that coming up next. Basketball is very good.

Welcome to Ringer NBA University. My name's Kevin O'Connor, and this is the Ringer NBA show's new bi-weekly podcast focusing on the league's younger players and the upcoming draft class. Every episode I'll be joined by my friends from the Ringer, Jonathan Charks and Jake Hile Man. What's up, guys?

How you doing today? I'm doing super. Very excited. This is going to be fun. So our bosses like some of the pre-draft stuff that we did in it before the draft last October November and they now they want us to do a pod focusing on young players in the NBA and we're going to be talking a little bit of draft too. I'm excited for this guys. This is going to be great.

Every other Wednesday. Yeah, we had to get Kyle's dulcet tones on the on the ringer feed. He couldn't keep it out any longer. I mean, Kyle does have an amazing voice. So I look forward to doing that. And so as I explained up top, this pod is largely going to focus on the league's youngest players. So let's just set a couple of, you know, guidelines, not rules, guidelines. to clarify what we mean by that. The way I'm looking at it as, I'm looking at it like this. Once a player turns 27, they've graduated from this pod. They're like most players hit their prime at age 27, so they're just not going to be our

focus. Guys who are 24, 25, 26, like Akaris LaVird, won't get discussed quite as often unless they're doing something notable, like Jeremy Grant taking a leap this year. Or if Joel Ambide keeps up what he's doing for a couple more months, he's making an MVP leap. Jabari Parker, if he suddenly becomes good, that's notable. Same for the even younger guys who have already achieved stardom like Luca. He's not going to be discussed quite as often until the final stretch in the playoffs. And Charks, you're from Dallas, so sorry, dude.

No Luca for you. We're talking Josh Green here. This is a Josh Green. First off, the second thing is 27, it seems a little old to me. Like, KOC, how long were you in college? You graduate in four years, maybe five. I think I was five years. Okay.

So you're already pushing it. Yeah, I mean, it's the type of thing where we're not going to talk a lot about a, you know, a Joel Embed on this show. We're going to focus more on the Matisse Thibals and the Tyrese Maxis. But if Embed keeps up doing what he's doing, he had 40 plus points the other night, he's been dominating. That's notable. And taking that leap from really, really good player, you know, all NBA player to MVP. That's notable. So we'll see what happens over the course of the year.

I think generally, though, we're going to be focusing on guys who are what. 23, 24 and under. Yeah, yeah. And something that I talked about in one of the ringer promos that we did for this is just that this is an area of the NBA that people just get excited about because there's a lot of, there's a lot of hope, you know, there's a lot of like people. And also I think people love getting, they just like to get excited about the thing that could happen, you know?

Like think about some of the most fun things in like the history of the culture of the NBA. It's like young cores. Like even if they don't go. well they're fun to talk about like like why are people obsessed with uh jimmy jackson jemal mashbrun and jason kids yes the three jays love it thank you if that reference yeah i mean like well why do it's just it's kind of like um there's just something about the obsolete the discontinued um the thing that like didn't pan out or like i'm not saying that there's going to be a lot of people that don't pan out i'm sure there will be but there also be people that will but you know there's

just something exciting about the unproven the uh the things that's that you're that could turn into something great. And it's going to be fun to track. And I hope that we do a lot of that here. And I think we will. It's going to be a great time. And I guess there's a start off. It makes sense.

If we're talking about the youngest players, let's start out with our top five rookies. These are the five that we did agree on that are the five best so far. Let's start off with the Mellow Ball. And Charks, you wrote about the Hornets this week. I got to state the obvious here. But my goodness,

La Mello Ball is just as fun as advertised, if not more, isn't he? Yeah, the whole team is. And I think that's what's been so cool to watch compared to, like, last year in Australia. That team went when he was on the L.R. Hawks, he was more Lamello holds the ball the whole game. They lost a bunch of games. It was kind of, but this team is fun. It's exciting.

Lamello's playing with like Miles Bridges, PJ Washington. They got some older guys in Gordon. They got the old Boston refugees, you know, Gordon Hayward, Terry Rozier. But really, like, the whole team is fun. And it's been cool to see Mello be just part of a team and not have to be the same. and that'd have to be the centerpiece of everything and just kind of fit in a little bit. Yeah, definitely. And they've been a shift that I didn't expect.

There's a couple of pins that I want to put here is that I kind of expected them to shift Devante early and kind of or like and kind of play them together. But Roseer is kind of a factor that I guess we didn't really consider as much when we were projecting who Lamello would be early on. Because he has, I don't think he started a game for them yet. So they're kind of in a position where they've been able to. bring him along a little slower instead of sort of overwhelming him with like usage and maybe leaning too hard on some of the inefficiencies that I think we're probably going to talk about here. You know, it's funny with him. You mentioned him coming off of the bench and he's been very good off the bench for the Hornet. So far this season, he's averaging 12 points, 7 rebounds,

six assists, shooting 35% from 3, a good encouraging number for him early in his career. Obviously with the passing, that's what gets on the highlight reels. That's what is so fun and exciting about him. He had that full court, you know, baseball pass to Gordon Hayward the other night, but also that night he had some unbelievable dishes in the half court, two to him. And, you know, Lamello before the draft, that was the number one thing people talked

about, the passing. And even already, 11 games in, how many NBA players right now are actually better than him as a passer? It's Yokic, Luka, CP3. It's a pretty short list. He's already top five, top

10. As a pass from week. Nice. Well, yeah, and with Lamello, it's the size. That's what's been like, he's six foot eight and the passing and the rebounding. And that's just translating immediately. Just like even you compare him to Lanzo, those extra two inches make a big difference. It's just easier for him to see the floor. You really can't trap a six foot eight guy to see over all the double teams. And going back to what Kyle was saying, look like now I look at it, I kind of love Terry

Rose here with Lamello. That's like a perfect fit, right? Because Terry Rozier guards the point guards. He's become like an elite three point shooter. So space the floor guard points. And Lamello gets to kind of run the offense without having to worry about guarding point guards. Yeah, the big thing, the transition passing obviously, like, translated immediately. And it's like so fun to watch.

And like I saw somebody talking about that like, and I expect this to be true is that Lamello is definitely going to be one of those like consistently satisfying social media kind of players that like he's going to be just giving us something fun consistently. he's all i never doubted that he would have that and i think that you're right about in terms of um you know like we said that he's he's he's a little bit erratic offensively right now like he there is still a little bit of waste in his game but uh the shooting i was going through and watching some of his shooting technique and it looks like uh it looks like he has kind of tried to make a shift towards that like more stable lower body can you describe that kyle like

what's for the listeners what's the difference between you did a video about this on the ringers YouTube channel breaking it down. But what's the difference between what he did early last season playing overseas compared to what he did late last season compared to what he's doing now that's helped his jump shot? Yeah, I mean, I did a little bit of like developmental detective work and assumed. I was I was really assuming that this was the case. But like if you charted his, it started way before last season.

And I think it was just things that baked into the way that he played from an early age, you know, because he played up a lot, which I think. think is really important for younger guys, especially like ball handlers and things like that. But he developed this thing where he was a little kid, like a little guy, like 14, 15 years old playing on the varsity up in like high competition varsity-wise in California. And he just developed this habit of like his lower body was really wild when he would shoot from distance. And I thought that it had something to do with maybe his body strength.

And that just kind of continued because of the really kind of freewheeling way that he played all the way up until last year. And then at Midpoint last year with Ilawara or Eowara, I can never remember which one it is. He started to shift towards keeping his feet down and more of a shot that resembles sort of like what DeAngelo Russell does. If you watch Shea Gildes Alexander, all guys have kind of similar builds to where he kind of is tiptoed. He doesn't get off the ground as much. A set shot sort of, right? Yeah, control some of the variation in his feet whenever he's shooting.

I think this is so important for Lamele, like put it. pin in this conversation about the shooting. Because the three point shot is there for him. It makes the game so much easier. Because right now, probably where he's struggling the most is getting to the rim and finishing. Because he is not very strong right now. Not a great athlete.

His piece, I think his two point percentage is not very high. It's really the three point shots keeping him afloat. As long as he knocks down threes, it's going to be fine. But if he loses that part of his game, all of a sudden, the offensive, I think, kind of come to the four a little bit more. Charks over one year ago, he wrote, quote, Lamello can be a dominant offensive player when he's making pull up and step back threes. And that was a story. I think it was like last November 2019. Before, like he clearly was blowing up. And with him, like, you're 100% right. And if he isn't becoming a guy who is a reliable shooter off the dribble, it does mean he's going to have to improve in other areas. I think his shot selection is a bit better so far with Charlotte than what we saw. overseas, seeing a less of those floaters from the free throw line, which were so frustrating

to watch. I mean, there's this really, really facepalm-inducing shot sometimes. And the at-room finishing, you're right. So far this season, he's shooting, he's shooting 46% from two-point range. So not bad by any means, but not great. You like to see that number much higher. And with him, the at-room finishing doesn't need to get better. But I do think he has shown signs of improvement.

early on this year. Have you guys observed him doing anything different on drives to the rim, what he's doing when he's actually in the paint? That has at least made you feel a little bit better of what he can become as an at-room guy, so he's not so reliant on the perimeter jumper. A big thing is just confidently going there to begin with, because that was a big thing that affected his efficiency early on. And I think that it'll affect his efficiency going forward, too. And you were talking about the weird shots in the mid-range, you know, the difference between a guy like Lamello in terms of like big playmakers and Luca is Luca can just go set up shop at the nail at the foul line and just hang out there and not be bothered, even with the biggest

defenders in the league. Lamello when he gets in that area, his comfort level is just not quite there. Now, I don't know how big and strong he's going to get, but he's definitely going to have to become one of those guys that negotiates contact in that area. And I think that that's something that he has started to take steps towards doing. He's creative enough as a player and as a finisher that I don't really worry about that so much. But, yeah, I mean, I definitely have seen some progress in his patience in that area, albeit not like crazy.

What do you think, Jarks? See, to me, the big thing is just like the context of the team he's on. Because he's playing a team with so many other scores, there's just less neat for him to kind of force shots. And I think that is like what's really exciting when you spin this forward. So you've got two pretty good. young forwards and bridges in Washington. I think Gordon Hayward's really kind of found himself again.

He's not too old. So that's three. And then you have those two guards, Roger and Graham. Hayward's only 30. The oldest guy in the team. A little bit of hard range, but still not. It'll still be good for a while, hopefully, if you can say healthy. So now he's playing with like four or five other scores.

And that's why I think really I'm excited to see. Like when you compare him to Luke, I think probably he'll never be like this 30 point a game ball dominant guy. But at Charlotte, he doesn't. doesn't really have to be. I mean, he can kind of play off these guys, get them going. I love when he's like getting Miles Bridges going when he's getting Gordon Hayward going. And that, of course, saying like the passing. Like to me, he's always going to be a pass first guy. The scoring just got to be enough to make the rest of his game kind of stand out.

You mentioned Miles Bridges, Charks. He's really impressed me this year. He's shooting the ball better than he ever has. And to me, he's having the best season of his, of his career on the defensive end of the floor. I mean, overall he is, but on defense, he's been really, really good there. And you look at this Hornets team, you know, we just said how Hayward's the oldest guy at 30, they're very young. I mean, PJ Washington on there. Yeah, obviously Rose here. You have Devante Graham. There's a lot of quality talent on this team. And it feels like, you know, right now you have Lamello coming off the bench for the Hornets. When things align at the way they eventually will, you're probably going to have Devante Graham in that spark plug guard roll off the bench. Right now,

shooting only 29% from the floor, 38% last season. It's only a matter of time until Borego makes that switch with inserting Lamello into the starting lineup, Graham off the bench. This team, I mean, like,

I'll be honest, I think I've already probably watched more Hornets basketball this season. I did all last season. They're a fun team to watch, and they're also a promising team. Overall, it's more than just Lamello. Well,

this is what we expected when they, I mean, I, and here's the thing that's really surprised me, is that when you go in and look at the efficiencies and the numbers, is you looked at these pieces and you thought, well, that's going to be a fun offensive team, which they have been fun to watch.

But the big shift has been defensively. They've gone, I think they've jumped like 16 spots and defensive rating in the early goings of the season, like 24th to 8. Yeah. Why do you guys think that's happened? See, I do wonder if that's sustainable. If we're talking about this season,

that part I do wonder if that's going to end up. We'll see. I mean, that, I'm not sure I totally believe in that one yet. If the season ended today, which is a silly question because it's not. But just this kind of set up baseline, right now, do you think he's the rookie of the year? Is he your number one in the rookie of the year race? Not for me. You charks?

I think right now he's neck and neck with the guy we're going to talk about next. I think those two guys have kind of separated themselves. I have this next guy that we're going to talk about number one. And that's Tyrese Halliburton. So Tyrese Halliburton, Sacramento Kings, he reminds me of the feeling when you first get into bed, the pillow's soft. It's cold. You feel cozy. You feel safe.

Halliburton should make Kings fans feel safe whenever he's on the court. He should make them feel calm and good because that's what Halliburton does. He's already one of the game's most reliable playmakers. He does not make any mistakes. He sees passing lanes that most players never do. And he just has a special feel for everything on the court, whether it's cutting off ball, relocating to get open four, three, deflecting the ball away in transition, making a perfect defensive rotation.

And what's crazy is Halliburton doesn't turn 21 until February 29th. And I don't know how a leap year birthday works, but maybe it adds 10 extra years of maturity because this dude Halliburton already plays like one of the most trustworthy veterans in all of the NBA. Kyle, how are we feeling with that metaphor? Give us a ruling on that. A ruling on the, like, the comfort thing? I mean, with the ball...

Where are we thinking about that? With the ball on his hands, if we had to make up sort of like a score index for metaphors, I mean, that was a good one. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like a wild, you know, like far reaches of the zeit guys kind of a thing. You know, the failure? So he got on base.

Yeah, he got on base. He's on base, you know, and like the A's taught us, you know, getting on base is important. I'm wearing an A's hat right now. No, no, I totally agree. And something interesting, KS.E and I briefly talked about this and we saved it. But something interesting is that among players that classify technically as wings on a shout-out to Ben Falk and cleaning the glass, lamello ball and Tyrese Halliburton are like one and two in the whole NBA in assist to usage.

What do you guys make of that? I love that. That's a great stat. That's a fantastic stat. That's one of my favorite stats. You explain to the listeners why? You know, my stat nerd friends, I'm sure will come at me and be like, well, actually, Kyle.

I think that I personally go to that one a lot because to me what assist to usage means is that off you are you are a smart enough basketball player that offense flows through you. And that's something that I look a lot. I look for a lot in younger players. It's like, and it's important in today's spread out NBA because if you're a dead end offensive guy, meaning like, you're a guy who like the ball comes to me, I'm going to do something with it. You'd better be pretty damn good at that. And there aren't as many efficient guys like that out there. So you really want as many of these like versatile. And on this list is like guys like

Kevin Herder. Demarton Rosen's actually up there, but just a lot of players who can quickly flip what they do into a good decision. And Halliburton is the epitome of that at his age. So I think the key point what you're saying there is like with usage usage is zero sum right i mean you can play faster but other than that like there's only so many shots so many so many possessions in a game for a team and anybody who takes a lot of possessions is inherently taking away from somebody else and what i love about a guy like halberton is like he's making the most of a very small number of possessions which means he's letting other guys shine around him because he's moving the ball everyone's happy i've always kind of the haliburton like four

force multiplier because you can put him into any role and he's going to make the most of that role and make everyone better. And I think it's something to talk about a lot just on this pot in general. It's just like when you're a young player, it's very, very hard to get a high usage, right? That means your team is committed to developing you, to giving you the ball. And you're kind of like, it's taking away from everybody else usually because you're not doing great things with the ball. But Halliburton, it's like, whatever. You put him out there.

He's going to have a low. You should be still going to make things happen. And that's just like, that makes teams better instantly when you can do that. Is there a higher level for him? I mean, what we're talking about here is, you know, the ultimate glue guy. We're talking about someone who's a Marker Smart range, a top 50 guy. That's a compliment, top 50 player. Is there a lane for him to be a Kyle Lowry, like a top 25, 30 player in terms of impact?

And if so, what do you want to see from him over the course of this season as he'd have as he gets more reps to show that he can tap into that higher level where he's not a low-usage guy, but maybe he can dominate the ball sometimes for you. But he's always going to be a share. Well, that bridges, there's a bridge between what you said and what charts just said. It's like, what's the bridge between Halliburton? What is his mode of navigating that area of high usage? Because if you look at his shot chart, and this has been just like perennially true of Halliburton forever,

and I made this comparison in my notes that, like, Halliburton is a lot more of a technician, and Lamello is more of sort of like a poet as a playmaker. Halliburton is very much just like... Interesting. I see you're going with this. This is a good metaphor. This is a good one.

I like this. It's a high level one. Putting them beside each other, I love both of these players, to be honest, just because I really like this quality of players of letting offense flow through you. And so, and Halliburton is a, guy that's like, I can tell you what the margins are of what's possible here in like 8K resolution.

And Lamello is just like, what are margins? He's just all feel. He just floats around. And he just is not really, he's sort of a more of a wild creative thinker in my opinion. But Halliburton, if you look and we're talking about like how he can bridge to like star territory. And that's all just about dependable offense with a high usage rate. So if you look at like what what Halliburton is doing right now, he's basically just taking really good. shots from three. I mean, his shot chart looks incredible above the break. He's hitting some corner threes. And then he takes things right around the lane. So he's not really, he's not really heavily getting to the rim a ton, but there's just not waste in his game. And he's got an insanely

high true shooting percentage to combine with that assist rate and usage rate. Yeah, I mean, I think like Kyle is kind of like when Mello makes like these wild, beautiful plays, Halliburton, it's just pure functionality. It's like the most efficient possible play is just always kind of happening. And to me, like, the biggest thing for him now is to just get more minutes, right? He's averaging 28. He could probably be honestly at 35. Like, the way he's impacting the game.

And that gets into a bigger King's discussion. It's like, where do you find these minutes for Halliburton? And, like, I'm going through my head, like, these lineups. To me, the obvious guy out, it's not Buddy Healed. It's not Harrison Barnes. It's Bagley. I think Harrison Barnes is a four Buddy Heels your three

Halliburton's your two Deeran's your one Holmes is your five To me that's the lineup And it's just a matter of If I got to squeeze minutes For somebody for Halliburton I'm squeezing our guy Bagley

I'm making him a platoon five Are you done with Bagley? I don't know if I'm done with him But I'm not letting him block Halliburton's minutes And like Harrison Barnes is playing great Buddy Heel's too important for his shooting So what else is who else is going to get squeezed?

So it's more like just about the fit and how you would build out this roster more so than Bagley's own development. Because this season, he's, you know, had some very poor moments, especially in the defensive end of the floor. Offense he had that play where he caught the ball around the elbow and waved off everybody. And it probably turned it over right away. Beautiful. But he's also had some good moments too.

Bagley, I mean, he's not someone I ever loved in the draft. Still don't love him now as a player. But there's undeniably talent there. And, you know, with Sacramento this year, along the lines of what you're saying with lineups, sharks, something I looked at and prepped for this podcast was this. I was surprised here. So small sample size in this stat,

but the Kings are plus 1.5 when Halliburton's on the floor without Fox. There are minus seven when Fox is on without Halliburton, and there are minus 13 when they're both on the court. Really, that does surprise me. I'm surprised by that. Are these negative numbers just because the kings are, you know, still young, up-and-coming team. They're not good right now.

They're getting better. Or have Fox and Halliburton shown anything when they're on the floor together to suggest that they don't mesh perfectly? Going quickly, a step to what you were saying about Bagley, and we were talking about assist-e usage. You know who's like at the bottom of the whole NBA and assist-usage? And it speaks to he's not efficient at doing the thing he's insistent on doing. So, Charks, I agree with you.

I think that that's the more likely lineup shift for them. That is shocking, though. I'm really, I kind of in my head, like whenever I watch the Kings, I feel like Fox and Halliburton play pretty well together. I agree. I'm surprised.

I agree. Yep. Yeah, I guess it kind of, we're going to talk about this. I feel like as this pod goes on, but it's kind of like, well, at what point does that start to affect your decision making

with them as a tandem? Like, is there a way to improve what they do in terms of, uh, schematically to, to, who's, who's,

who's the, most likely to what do you guys think the most likely roster changes on the in the near future for them to to sort of optimize this fit i think it's definitely moving bagley at some point it's just a matter of what are you going to get what's the value for him i'm not sure there's a ton of value to me he seems like a guy who's destined just to sign elsewhere as a restricted free agent just seems to be on that path ultimately i i think it's going to have to come down a lot to de aaron fox's own development. He still is a sub 30% three point shooter.

He's had one year with a really good percentage that was the second season when he shot 37% from three. But that might be an outlier year. It just might be. And until he shows that he can be a guy who can reliably spot up as well as do hit shots off the dribble as well from

three, there's going to be those questions about the fit when he doesn't have the ball in his hands because he needs to become a guy who can be reliable off the ball. And that's the leap I want see Fox take. He's already so good. Only 23 years old. Like, we're nitpicking. But we're really not

when the big money contract is about the kick in starting next season. Like it's go time. We're seeing right now with Pascal Seaccom with Toronto, he's got the $30 million contract. Now you get to perform like a star level player. Deerrin Fox, to me, I want to see that progress over the course of the season.

And if not this season, it's got to happen next season to really maximize what they can be. To me, it's about an internal improvement more so than a transaction right now. Okay. Actually, I was just like kind of looking at the lineup numbers. And I think what's going on, because I do believe in this Fox Halliburton.

And I'm like, I'm motivated, motivated reasoning digging through this. And when they're playing with Rishon Holmes, they're plus 16. Without Rishon Holmes, they're minus 32. That to me is what's going on is they just have,

their bigs after Holmes are like, this killing them. Basically, when Holmes is out of the game, their plus minus is terrible. I think that's kind of the swing point for everything else is without Holmes, it's white side, Bagley, or B-Elitz at the five. And that, to me, is where you've got to figure out with this Kings team is what's the long-term

answer at the five and the four. And if it's not Bagley, can he be moved? And of course, he had the whole thing with his pops, you know, team Bagley. That didn't help. That does not help your leverage. It's like very publicly like going downhill there. And it seems the thing that always, you know, like, you know, like, you know, know, Deard Fox is a Kentucky guy.

Obviously, I root for him on that level. But I've always had a weird thing with him where in my gut, something isn't. And we fall into this pit, in my opinion. I think this is a larger kind of discussion about what one of my friends calls, use this term wrong initiators, which I really have kind of come to like a lot lately, which is they're floor raisers in the sense that they really get you a lot of transition baskets and a lot of, like, rim pressure in the half court. And Fox does that.

So, like, you end up in this situation where you're just like, man, I love how he can get to the rim and draw fouls. And his speed and quickness really, like, create havoc that you can use. But then you end up in this situation where the ceiling is lowered because of the issues you talked about. And in today's NBA, it just seems problematic. Like Russ falls into the – you just run into a wall at some point if that's what you lean on. I mean, Janus has run into this.

this literal Janus Wall. That's always just kind of been my hold up with Fox. And I don't know. I don't know. Let me ask you guys a question. When they're playing together, when Halliburton and Fox are playing together, who is on ball more that you've observed? Fox right now.

And that works, you know, because Halliburton can play off ball. We know he's a smart cutter. He's a good spot up shooter. He knows how to do all the things you get to do to play off of a guy who's handling the rock. But ultimately, if Halliburton is something. I'm going to evolve and be somebody who controls more of the offense and runs things. That's where we're going to have to see Deeran Fox get much better.

That's where they're going to have to find more bigs because like you said, Roshan Holmes has been really good for Sacramento this year. And to be fair to Fox also, he's had some good moments. He had that gigantic dunk the other night to I see. And that was fun. He's still a really good player. It's just to your point, Kyle, this season, 23rd percentile and half court scoring according to Synergy sports.

last season 37% in half-court scoring percentile according to synergy. And it's been sub-50% every year of his career. He needs to be better in the half-court. It's as simple as that for the Sacramento Kings to in the loaded Western Conference be not just a playing contender, but a team is going to be a top 60. They're not there yet. And it wouldn't surprise me, Charks, if the big man we're going to talk about later in the show today to be one of the guys that makes sense for them in the future, a certain player from USC.

I hadn't even thought about that. That would be perfect, actually. But for now, we're going to move on and talk about James Wiseman. Golden State Warriors selected him in the top three. Charks, you wrote about Wiseman and the Warriors. Recently, I wrote about Golden State more of a, with a Steph Curry focus. I believe, Kyle, you're doing a Wiseman video coming up pretty soon. Is that true?

Dremont. Dramon. Dremont. We'll touch on Wiseman, because Charks had a good comment in his article that he said, how Draymond and Wiseman fit together up front is the most important storyline for the franchise this season. Can you walk me through the mindset

behind that statement charts? Why is the fit between those two so critical over the course of this year for Golden State? Well, I mean, I think first off, we saw the value Draymond still has when he was out. I mean, it was night and day

when he was out that first week and a half. He comes back in. They're playing defense. The ball's moving. Him and Steph still have this great little combination, this chemistry. So, like, this team is a Draymond's Steph team right now.

And so then the question is, okay, if it's a Dreymont Steph team, where does Wiesman fit in? Because Dremont's always been at his best, a small ball five. That's where he's made his money. That's where he's made his legend. And I think what worries me is his jumper is totally disappeared. Like, Draymond, if you go over, it's like a

six-year tread now where it's gone down and down and down. That's because he wears a backpack, so backpack when he shoots, right? He is, he is odd shot mechanics. I'm not like a shot doctor, but have you ever noticed how like it never seems like he, he gets like full utilization of the power of his frame? Like whenever he shoots, it seems like he doesn't get enough like hips. He just doesn't get enough leverage on the ball. Like the energy transfer is weird.

I agree. It's like it's just short. Like it's a lot of like the ends of his arms when he shoots. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what's happening. But at this point, it's hard to have much faith that it's going to change, right? Like he's suddenly going to regain that 2015 form. And so then there's a question of,

okay, if he's not going to shoot, how do we make this work with Wiseman with this seven-foot future franchise center? That's just going to be tricky with spacing in general. And then the other thing is like on defense, like last night against the Pacers, they actually put Wiseman on Sabonis and Dremont on Turner, which to me was an interesting decision in itself. Is like, are they like, do they not want Wiseman guarding the perimeter? Because obviously to me, I want Draymond on Sabonis. He's the guy for Indiana. I was a little surprised by that. You want Draymond, and this is something that I talk a lot about in this video coming up, is Draymond is definitely like a free safety guy that can process the whole option. Like,

he's really, really good at sniffing out actions away from the ball and like orchestrating the defense. And that's really been interesting to watch early on in this season for sure. And Draymond has talked about helping why he's been along, what he needed to get better at and some post-game press conferences. You know, I'm curious, just to go back to his, you know, very short, brief stint with Memphis last year. The number one concern about him was feel for the game. He has three assists to 17 turnovers right now. Reading the floor in defense is something he needs to get better at.

Have you guys, you know, from the limited sample we saw from him in college and plus high school, have you seen improvements from him when it comes to feel when it comes to reading the floor and making quicker decisions? Or does that remain something that he needs to get significantly better at? I don't know about you, but for me, the big improvement, I've seen is just the offensive skill. I wasn't quite expecting the skill level he's shown this year. More than like, I think the feel is still a big issue,

but the jumper looks pretty good. He goes coast to coast sometimes. That's what stood out to see more than anything of the first couple weeks. Yeah, he's looked comfortable in transition a few different times. I think it's just feel is not a short term. It's not something you can throw in the easy bake oven and get huge results. I mean, that's a brisket that takes some time to cook. And that's, especially at this age, and you honestly couldn't, you couldn't really pick a better mentor for somebody who needs help in these areas than Draymond.

And this is something I mentioned to Charks is that, well, Draymond is, is like an ideal mentor for him on that level in terms of like learning schemes, getting comfort level with them. I think it's really funny. Like Steph and Draymont have like this old married couple kind of vibe on the court where they just like finish each other's sentences. And it's like, it's really funny to just watch them improvise period. it on a nightly basis. But yeah, with Wiseman, I mean, when he's in the position to, and he's liberated to just run, jump, dunk, I mean, he's, he's incredible. And he has really paired well with some of Draymond's strengths, which are, you know, Dremont is, is really good at sort of taking a Polaroid picture of the play right before he gets the ball and making a great

decision. And a lot of times that's like quick lobs off of a swing pass, you know, whenever Dremont's in the middle of the floor. And Wiseman is a great, vertical spacer in that sense. Something that he struggle with I've noticed is that like Dremont's also like a great interior passer, like short, quick passes with some speed. Yeah, catching.

Weismans bobbed a lot of those. So that's something I think that they're probably going to have to work on. I'm curious what you all think about this. So I know like everyone's been saying like, oh, this is a great fit for Wiseman. Draymond's a great mentor. But now I'm starting to wander because Dremont wants to win and now we're putting a rookie center in there

and he's impacting Dremont's a great mentor. ability to win. And I just wonder, like, because like the last couple of games, they've been benching Wiseman in the fourth quarter because they want to win. So I just wonder like, is this the best spot for him? But right, like, is that at what point for you for the Warriors do you balance developing Wiseman versus going forward with Raymond and stuff right now? I think there's a tension that's only going to grow over the season between those two

points. In other words, are you saying that they should have went with somebody else? I don't know, but like, what do you all think about that? Like if you're a Golden State, how do you balance developing Wiseman versus going forward right now? Go ahead, Gab. What do you think? It's a challenge. I mean, I think with Wiseman, if he's not playing some fourth quarters, I'm fine with it.

You still want to win games. And I think winning is part of development too. And ultimately, he can still get reps in the first, second and third quarters until it's win time in the fourth. And, you know, it's like Kyle said earlier, this feel for the game isn't something that just improves overnight. It just doesn't. It takes time years sometimes for it to improve if ever. And, you know, Kyle, we were texting last night about assist usage ratio. It's very bad.

I believe you text me. It's 0.13 for Wiseman. Yeah, it's rough. Very poor. And it shows. I like how I said that. It's very bad. Yeah.

I just want to make that clear. It sounded like the guy from I think you should leave. Yeah. Stinky. And you know what, man. I think drafting wise it made a lot more sense before Clay got hurt obviously the Clay got hurt

before Wiseman was actually technically drafted but once Clay comes back and if Clay is 100% or near 100% I think everything will fall into place better however to me Gold State was the perfect fit for Wiseman I'm not sure Wiseman is the perfect fit for Golden State because of how much they

they value quick decisions they value being able to see plays unfold before it happens. Being able to make proper defensive rotations and you can't be a beat late on this team. And Wiseman, this could take three, four, five years for him to become competent in those areas. And for them, I think for now, I look at Wiseman early in his career is like a supercharged version of like what Javelle McGee did for them. I mean, like, rim running, energy, be a defensive presence. That's what I want to see from Wise and early on when Golden State's trying to win. And then over time when

Steph, Draymond and Clay are older, that's where I will really care about seeing some progress from him when it comes to feel for the game. Because right now, so far, the season, I haven't seen too much of it since Yeah, Kevin, it's funny you say that because, like, when they put in Looney, that's from the difference, it's jarring. When Looney comes

in, and Looney is obviously not the most athletic guy, but the way the ball moves, the way the team is moving, it's just night and day when he's in Weisman spot. Yeah, I mean, it could be worse, right? I mean, like, Kevin, I think you hit on it. like yes this is like it's conflicting agenda it's like this is great for wiseman um and it the pick made sense at the time you know because of what was going on i still would have loved to have seen

halberton with them i just think that would have been a blast that was so awesome that was that was the that was the that was the guy this is like this is like the next iteration of like healthy sean livingston that's kind of what i was thinking but livingston with a three yeah yeah yeah but it's uh it's It's a thing where it's a tough situation for Golden State because the thing that really elevates them the most and gives them the most, the best chance to win is putting Dremont, you know, at the five like Charks was talking about. But Dremont played like almost 500 games in like five seasons. Like it was something insane.

I think it was like 476. And then you compound that with the fact that, and I'm just talking about wear or tear here, you compound that with the fact that everybody has won it. been everybody's, to quote John Caliperi, it's been everybody's Super Bowl every single night. So there are a lot of miles on Dremont, and it's a tough thing. And I think that, I don't, I don't think you can lean too heavily on Dremont right now. I think that they're probably the best bet is just to keep trying to work with Wiseman. And that's going to take time. Let's talk about a guy who was already a very good defensive player as a rookie, Isaac O'Coro,

with the Cleveland Cavaliers. They took him fifth. He's averaging 36 minutes per game that leads all rookies. I believe he's the only rookie averaging over 30 minutes right now. O'Coros, you know, you look at the raw numbers, eight points, two rebounds, two assists, one steal, point three blocks. Nothing stands out there, 39% from three, 30% from three, 39% from the floor. I'll go say it. If it was turn nine from three, it'd be a whole different conversation. That would be a game changer. We'll talk about his offense, but ultimately, with his defense, Cleveland has a top five defensive rating so far in the NBA. We'll see how sustainable that is.

But O'Cohor Charlotte, yeah. O'Coro to me has already shown that he has a foundation for a very long, successful career because of his defense. It's just going to be a matter of what level he reaches on the offensive end of the

floor. And he had issues at Arboran last year with shooting confidence. He would pass up open shots. He obviously bricked a lot of jumpers too. And thus far, the improvement from three, granted it's a small sample size, haven't really seen it. He's also only shooting 50% from the free throw line.

He's been good overall, but are you guys at all concerned early on about the lack of offensive Dale Bellman from the college season until now? I think for me, it's hard to figure yet because Cleveland hasn't had their team, really, right? Love went down game two. I think Sexton and Garland had been out for the last two weeks. Accora was out for a little while. Like, I'm so, I want to see what all these pieces are going to look like and what his role is with the other core guys in their team.

My first thought when I'm seeing him out there, he looks a little smaller. Like he's not like a 6-8 big-bodied guy. Like, do you think they drafted him to guard wings or to guard like point guards and cover for Garland and Sexton? That was my first thought when I was like, is he going to be a guy who kind of guards the ball or is he going to be a guy who's guarding more towards the basket? I thought a ball. When I first initially, from talking to Cavs fans, this was kind of, I think some of their

impression, too, from what I remember, if I'm remembering correctly, is Is that, yeah, that he, he, and it's interesting for rookies too that, I agree with you. I thought that he was going to look more like a broad-shouldered, maybe closer. I don't think I have a comp off the top of my head, but his minutes load, to be an average defender for a rookie, that's pretty good. You know, that's kind of what you want to aim at is if you can just be average or close to average and keep your head above water, that will be enough to keep him on the floor as he starts to tackle some of these other things. because I am KOC, like you said, I'm seeing some of the reticence on offense, like when he catches the ball. His decision-making comfort level is still a work in progress. I mean, we're

barely into the season. And, you know, with some of those other creators and guys being out, like the continuity not being there, that's a little bit of a more of a stress on some of those things that need to come along. So I could see why they would maybe look a little more problematic in the early goings. I've almost been more impressive. about the fifth guy to talk about here. And that's Patrick Williams. My guy. Chicago Bulls. You wrote a big feature on him prior to the draft. And he looks really good, just really good on both ends of the floor. It's been amazing to see him going from a six man off the bench with Florida State to now starting to the Chicago Bulls. And you watch Williams

play and you see the way he pulls up from mid-range. Someday those are going to be three. It's going to be threes at some point. That range will be extended. And there's a chance that there's a star in him. There is because he has that size you're talking about. He's bigger than Okoro. He can be bigger. Kyle, he has that versatility. And he also has the ability to create off the dribble for himself,

which is a special talent. He's been not the rookie of the year so far. I wouldn't put him as the top three most impressive rookie. But by the end of the year, it wouldn't shock me if he keeps getting better and better and better, that we're like, whoa, whoa. this kid can be special because the ability to the ability to have to dribble is even better than it was last year at Florida State.

See, to me, what I love about Williams, I think I need a term for this. Kyle helped me out here. He's like a 3-and-D plus where he has his 3-and-D foundation. I can put him on the court. He'll space well enough. He can guard because there's so many young guys, you put him on the court that are hurting your team.

Like Patrick Williams is kind of like a DeAndre Hunter in his sense. We're like, if he's out there, it's totally fine. he's not hurting your team on offense or defense. But then he has this little plus where it's like, oh, he's out there. Every once in a while he takes shot out the dribble. He's making an advanced move. It's like he's building his game

while having this really strong foundation. And that's what I love about him, really. What about 3D plus? I mean, that's kind of, that has... I just go with that. That's a Halliburton play, very functional nickname. None too fancy.

Yeah, it's a technician. Yeah, I've been impressed with any show glimpses of this at Florida State. It's just sort of like real comfort making like primary reads. Like, and that's, like you said, if he can be out there and give you just little splash as a playmaking like that, that's, that's huge. That's what you want.

That's what you, that's what you're talking about. Like, if you can swing it to this guy who can hit open threes and be a plus defender on the other end and give you a little bit of playmakers, a little bit of playmaking, that's a guy that you can keep on the floor as the competition levels up. To me, what I want to talk about really quick, a little bulls discussion. I think on this West Coast road trip, they've really kind of found something. with him at the four. And they're playing like,

it's like Garrett Temple Levine, Kobe White, three guards around him and Wendell. And to me, that's the lineup. I'm just saying, I think Lori, I don't think he fits with this team,

really. I think this is the team it has to be as Pat at the four. What do you think about that? Where would be a good, what team do you think could be like looking at Lowry and be in, is it Lowry or Lori?

I never know. I always put him in. I believe. It's like Kyle Lowry. Yeah. Kyle Lowry Martin. What, we don't have to keep this,

but do you guys have, have like a fit, like a team that could be like eyeballing Lowry and being like this dude in our culture could work. And that's, I was going to say on the Warriors thing, to me, I love like the obvious confidence that they have in their culture and their ability to like, because to bring in people who maybe don't seem like they fit. And is there a team out there that's looking at Lowry Mark and is thinking, we could, this guy could be useful with us? because hubris does seem to run rampant at times. Why do you want to trade this guy? I want to explore that more. Charg said it.

I'm just saying. I know, I know, 17 points per game, 48% from three. Like you look at the raw numbers, granted it's only four games and he's missed time. So you've seen how they look with him versus without him.

But why does the piece, why do the pieces fit together better without Lari, a guy who is on the surface putting up good numbers? What is it? Okay. So my thought is like, okay, so Lowry's not a five. I got Wendell for my defense.

Not a room protector, not a shop locker. No. Not an anchor. So then you have a bigger team with two, seven footers. And you're moving Pat Will to the three. I think Pat Will's really a four. I think you want more ball handling and playmaking and defense. I just think like, there's a squeeze there.

They started the year with Wendell, Lowry, Pat Will, and they were getting crushed. Like, I think that's too big a lineup. And I just think the obvious move, when you've seen it in these games, they won't beat the clippers, they came back on the Blazers, they looked good. I think it's just the fit of the rest of the team is just not there.

I don't like Lowry and Wendell. I never really did. I think Wendell and Pat just works better. It's a similar shift to what the Kings are doing, sort of putting a guy that can score and be a little bit more, like the way they're moving, potentially moving Barnes to the four,

moving Pat to the four, it's kind of a similar shift. To me, I mean, if I were to answer, you're our last question, Kyle, you know, if you're a team that's young, can afford to take a risk, wants an upside shot, a non-playoff team, I'd be happy to. Is there any logic to any of the teams that are effectively locked into the postseason acquiring a guy like Larry?

Do you see Marking as somebody who can contribute on a playoff team, or do you want to see him more in a better developmental situation? I've always liked, I've always liked marking it. I just like big shooters. I could see him, I guess it's just a question of if you lower his role and squeeze him into a lower usage role where the parameters are a little bit more defined. You know, some guys, if you tweak that for them, they thrive more. I mean, like, and then once they cross that line of expanding, it can be more of a challenge. I mean, we've seen that with like Pascal Seaccombe.

When he was in those defined parameters with the Raptors, he really expanded to the size of his role and did it really? well, but then once you start crossing over, there's just a sort of a weird middle ground, uh, neutral zone for some guys. And I guess for, for marketing, I don't have a team off the top of my head, but he's always intrigued me in that way as somebody that can maybe flip to a different situation. I think for me, what I worry about like, bigs who don't play defense, you just kind of have to move your team around them to make it work, right? Because you got to have a lot of big to protect them. And I'm just, I think, I'm just not sure the juice is worth a squeeze in terms of all of the juggling you have to do in a way kind of like Bagley,

where when your big doesn't play D, it just makes it so hard to maneuver the rest of your lineups. And I'd just rather do without it more just philosophically. You mentioned the lack of defense. Let's move on to tonight's Knicks' Nets game. So far, this season, New York has exceeded expectations, five and six, granted they've lost three in a row, and their defense has started the slide,

and Brooklyn has underwhelmed, and now they get that Kyrie Irving situation unfolding with him being away from the team being caught on camera without a mask on on a party they got a lot of drama they're dealing with and this is one of those games where i wish there was fans at madison square garden to see this fun nix team granted like i said they lost three or they're fun against a team everybody believes is a finals contender and the nix with new york sharks um with the nets you said final center like the nix oh i mean look at the nymphs look at the nymphs um look at This Freudian. Let's keep that in there.

Casey's really believe it. Let's keep it. Kevin O'Connor says Nick's finals team. Aggregators. Aggregators. That's funny. I love the aggregators. They spread the news and they distribute the news people.

I like it. Yeah, KOC. Get on that lane. I do. We have no something against aggregating. It has nothing against it at all. It is very convenient. It is very convenient to have a go-to spot to get it to catch up on a hoops rumors.com. Are they an aggregator? Yes.

I love going to Hoops Rumors.com and having a page where it's everything there. I like aggregators. That's my hot take. Anyway, to correct myself, and the Knicks will be going. It's the finals contender in the next. Oh, my abs hurt. And when New York charks, they've been a fun story so far this year, but has the magic run out. So I watched the Hornets game.

I guess it was like two nights ago now. And it just seemed like Charlotte said, oh, y'all can't shoot, so we're just not going to guard you anymore. And they didn't, it's just tough, right? I think this lineup has run out of juice. So they're starting Alfred Payton, R.J. Barrett, Julius Randall and Mitchell Robinson.

I mean, you're playing four non-shooters at the same time. Like, that's, I never thought, I just can't imagine that working long term because I'll just zone you. Like, why not? That's what the Hornets did. I don't see a way around that, but if you don't get more shooting out there. I bowled it. I bowled it.

I really, my Kentucky really popped out on that one. I bold it down to. I made some notes. What's the Kentucky thing? You bold it? I said, I bold it.

There are certain words that like I hear. What are you trying to say? I was trying to say boil, but I. Boyle. Oh. Yeah. They're like, Kyle, what did you try? Yeah, you are talking to me like I'm like a service dog trying to.

What are you trying to say, Kyle? I'm a, babe. Yeah, it really comes out. Like, your Boston sometimes creeps out, and I always stop, Kevin, whenever he says it. Every time. Stop early. He was like, stop, stop.

I was like, ah, I got you. No, like, I boiled it down to this in my notes. It's pretty simple. And I think you can just eyeball the roster, the Knicks roster. They've been fun. It's a perfectly fine downhill team with no uphill gravity. And in modern basketball, that's just kind of a non. And that's a non-starter.

So, but with Tibbs, I mean, you know, he's a guy that's going to kind of cohesify, which isn't a word, but he's going to sort of synergize your effort and make you into a team with a focus and a defensive identity. And this team has that, but they just have a lot of pieces that they struggle in the three most important areas of basketball, of modern offensive basketball that you need to be a good team. And that is they don't create in ball screens and they don't create in transition efficiently. and then they don't shoot well. So you're going to have a hard time scoring.

It's just as simple as that. But there are some fun wrinkles. Are you saying RJ Barrett sucks? That seems like a leap from what I said. But I mean, Barrett, do we want to talk about Barrett? Yeah, we do. 18% from three. 68% from the free throw line.

I'm a little concerned, Kyle. We've seen the highs. We've seen a lot of lows, a lot of lows. Well, I mean, there's been a lot of, like, narrative about Barrett. that has gone Barrett, we'll call it. That was the worst joke ever. I like Barrett. I like it. I appreciate it.

From, I feel like I've talked a lot about Barrett. I talked to him lately with some Canadians about him and things like that. But you start to get into a broader conversation about like developmental environments and what works for certain players and what doesn't work. So R.J. Barrett was a situation where I think he continued to get enabled

because he was the dude and he was in Canadian basketball. And he has a lot. lot of great positive things about his game, but he might have been in an environment that enabled aspects of his game that maybe offset some of that. So like he's the man, he goes to Duke, he's wildly inefficient. They were like, hey, we have the best cleanup player maybe in the history of college basketball and Zion, RJ, be wild, be inefficient. Zion's going to clean it up. But now we're in a situation where it's like, I kind of wonder if we have like conflicting identity issues here for Barrett, where it's at a point where we're like, we're expecting him to

shoot when really maybe there should be some other areas of his game. Is his identity, I guess what I'm trying to say is, is his identity as a player on track? Do we think it's on track? Or does he need to be thinking about the way he thinks about himself? Because that's always been my issue with him. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Kind of.

For me, for me, I mean, I think what you're getting at is you don't want to see him be the shooter. You want to see him attacking more often. Is that where you're getting? you want to see him lean on on playmaking, lean in on defense, rather than trying to become the perimeter go-to-scorer type. Yes. That's always been my mind. Who's the player or who are some of the players that you feel like,

hey, you know, pop this guy up on synergy, watch some film of him how he succeeds without a jump shot. Are there any, you know, player constructs that you'd like to see him follow in that case? Oh, man. I mean, I always thought that he was most qualified and most set up to be high-quality, like role player, high rotation player. I never really thought that I just had always had a hard time buying the I'm going to be. I love guys having confidence. Like I think that you need to have that confidence in order to ascend and make those leaps, but you also also have to be realistic. He's just

not an efficient three-point shooter. Could he become one? I don't know. I don't trust him shooting with movement. I don't know that I ever will. I always saw him as somebody that's like, I'm invested in switchability. I'm invested in. I'm invested in. in just taking wide open shots. I'm invested in kind of the things we were talking about, like with Hal Burton, Draymond has this quality. The ball comes to me, I make quick, good decisions. He's just, he's never really expressed the efficiency

to make me think that he's going to level up in those areas. When I was watching him in college, the sort of the template that I always thought that he fit was, he's not on this level in terms of like basketball IQ, but like an iguadala type. He's not as athletic as Iguodala, but that was what he struck me as when he was younger. I don't know.

What do you guys think? I like what you said about Draymond. Like to me, I look at his game. I say, this six, seven guy who can really board, who's really tough,

who can really defend when he locked in. I want to see him as like a small ball four because that moves him off that shooter role. Like what's happening now is just like, it's silly. Like you're playing him at the two with no shooting. He has to shoot because no one else is going to do it. And that's just like not going to.

That's like, making RJ shoot a bunch of threes, that's like your classic charge the trench with a machine gun and you're on a horse, right? It's just setting up to fail, right? He's shooting 18% from three. I think to make RJ

whoever he's going to be, he's got to be a four with spacers around him, not the two with no spacing. And that to me is like, for me, the Knicks winning or losing who cares, really. I just don't see what their plan is with their young players.

I don't really see how they all supposed to fit together. And one guy who will be back is Obie Toppin. He's probable for tonight's game. There's a tweet this morning that said there's no guarantee he plays. He just might be activated. Only played one game before he was sidelined.

You know, you got this mix here with RJ questionable jumper. Obie shot well at Dayton, but we'll see how it translates, you know, from the three point line with higher volume perhaps. You get Julius Randall one of those guys who's 26 years old. We're not going to spend a lot of time on him.

But he has made some improvements this year. They're using him a lot more as a playmaker, still turning the ball over a ton. Fact is, though, he's another guy with a questionable fit in terms of his shooting ability. And Mitchell Robinson, too. Mitchell Robinson, too. There's just, like, I look at this Knicks team and the reason why I had, I picked them to finish 30th in record before the season and why, like, I still think they're going to be

bottom three is just the lack of shooting on this team. I just think they got off to a nice start. And overall, the Knicks, it's not about whether they're winning or not. It's just not about that. To me, it's about development. It's about getting this to fit right. It's about seeing a competitive team that shows like that they can absorb a star level player and be ready to start winning. We saw that with the Nets.

We saw that with the Clippers and the Lakers before they got their stars. The Knicks need to show that they can be that team. So it's not about the wins and losses. And early on, I'm impressed with their overall effort level. But I'm not buying, you know, some of the. the flashes we've seen from Randall and I got to see more from Barrett quickly got off to a great start for them. Hey, let's talk about that. Kyle's guy. Well, I was going to say you have, you were talking about a franchise player coming in. I think it's more of, you know, part the

seas and get out of the way because you have a franchise player in Emmanuel quickly that you can build around. So I think you just start talking about, you know, clearing the books and we start from Square One and we optimize this roster around Emmanuel quickly. Put it on the ticker in, in Times Square. No, he's been great. He's been great. Except for the last four games offensively. 11, 1 of 9, 04, 1 of 10.

He's, well, we'll have to, build it all a little bit. We'll have to factor that in. It's a learning experience. But no, I mean, he's, I've said this over and over to people, is that, like, quickly is a guy that can shoot with movement. He's going to be an aggressive defender. He has good physical measurements. He's been a little bit, he's been a little bit wigglier off the, on the ball than I expect.

And he has one of my favorite things about him is that he has some grifter in him. Like he's a guy who really thinks the game at a at a pace. Like, and what I mean by that is, uh, yeah, what do you, yeah, what do you mean like grifter in him? What are he saying here? He's already good at drawing fouls. Like he, he thinks the game at that speed. So I think that at the very least quickly is going to be like a rotation level guard.

I don't know. I don't know. I'm joking obviously about the franchise level thing, but he's, he's a guy that is going to help them, I think. They just need more guys like him. in the team they're going against the Brooklyn Nets. They had the 19th pick in the draft. They could have taken quickly if they wanted to.

They made the three-way trade on draft night with the Pistons and the Clippers. They got Landry Shamet. The Pistons got Sadiq Bay and the Clippers got Luke Kennard. You know, Brooklyn doesn't have a lot of young guys. Shamet's being one of them. He's really struggling on this season. Was Shamet ever good to begin with? And did Brooklyn make a mistake not taking another player at 19?

we'll get into a handful of the players that could have taken and how they've performed so far, but Shaman has really underwhelmed so far for them. And he's a player that needed to be good, especially now that Spencer Dinwiddie is out for the year with a torn ACL. Oh, I mean, he's a shooter who's not shooting right now, right? Like, that's just who he is. I expect he'll shoot better as the year goes on. I mean, I wouldn't say he was never good. I think I look out of like, yeah, there's probably guys they could have drafted who have more ceiling,

but were they really going to play on Brooklyn given the triangle for a championship? Probably not, right? Any guy they drafted there would have been the 13th, 14th man regardless, right? So I don't know. It's a good question, but I'm not sure. Yeah, with Shaman, I think it's maybe more of a question of,

less of a question of, is this guy good or was he ever good? And more of a question is of, has his, like, versatility and ceiling as like a, like a, his usage, is it just less versatile than we thought? Because I feel like the things that were really, really encouraging about him early on were just that he was really efficient coming off of screens, hitting threes. People got really excited. I liked him a lot at Wichita State in terms of like a guy that could give you some sort of like mix in some playmaking and shooting and things like that.

But it seems like at the NBA level, his comfort level with that has been maybe exposed a little bit as we've gone on because I think the assumption was, well, this guy can really shoot the ball. We'll keep him on the floor. We'll start to throw him some more stuff. And his efficiency has just kind of dipped ever since they started to do that. For me, I mean, the guy that I thought, just looking over the potential options for the nets that they could have taken. I mean, I feel like Sadiq Bay would have been a really nice. Just he comes off the assembly line and he's ready to play. He does a lot of things.

He doesn't really need the ball a lot. He can hit shots. He can defend. And he's pretty big. So for me, that was the first guy that came to mind. 44% from 3, 11 points per game for Sadieke Bay already. He's really good for the Pistons already. Granted, they're not a good team.

Bay was the guy drafted 19th. That's the player that they wanted there. And, you know, obviously taking a rookie comes with risk. Landry Shammett, I think he can be better than he's been so far. He's definitely going to shoot the ball better than he has. The defense has not been what it was when he was at his best. When he first got to the clippers, I thought. He's a little bit worse right now.

He's got to get better. but ultimately I look at Brooklyn and there's been a number of players that have been drafted, you know, outside the lottery, 19 and later in the draft that have been really good so far this season. Sadiq Bay for Detroit being one of them, Tyrese Maxi being another for Philadelphia, not a guy that made a lot of sense on paper for Brooklyn. You know, it's easy to look back now and say, oh, didn't what he's out. Kyrie is doing his own thing. It sure would be nice to have Tyrese Maxie there. He had that 39 point explosion from Denver. Kyle, you've watched a lot of Maxi, a Kentucky guy.

What type of progression have you seen from him? And what do you want to see from him over the course of the season? Like setting a baseline here for where he is today and where you'd like to see him towards the end of the season. Well, the question for him has been, you know, about shifting more towards how much can he play on ball and do that? Kind of the same kind of question with Shamet. And I was just laughed about what I was thinking.

Like I said, it's less of a question about his versatility. changing, which that is the very definition of being good in the NBA. So I'd like to tweak what I said there. It's not about him being good. It's just more about him doing more good things. So, you know, anyway. Actually, that's a good voice. Let's do a Kyle NPR voice every once in a while. That was good. So stupid. Overthinking it. Anyway, but yeah, with Maxie, I think, yeah, I don't know that Brooklyn would have been a good fit because you don't want to, you don't want to bottle up what Maxi does too much. Yeah. He always just reminds me of this like supercharged Dragon Ball Z character like out there on the court. It's just like you want him to get into these lather scoring fits.

He's that kind of guy. Like he's a lather score. Kind of like Jamal Murray. He like he gets momentum and he can give us that on any given night. I don't know. Of course, I guess Leverd is kind of the similar kind of thing. You'd have to put him in a different spot in the rotation maybe so that he could, you know, optimize that more next to stars. But yeah, for him, it's going to be just a question of can he take that like,

creative middle game, creative finishing, you know, just streak score. Can he take that and apply it and grow into these other areas of like being an efficient decision maker in the middle of the floor? Up is usage at the same time. I think those are the things that'll be the question for him of becoming a star rather than sort of a guy that's nice to have. Desmond Bain is the other guy. Grizzlies got him with the 30th pick, made a trade with the Celtics on draft night. Bain 6 foot 6, 215 pounds, has a great name, has a great NBA body, has a great NBA jumper. Bain, I had ranked top 20 in my board. I have had plenty of draft mistakes already this year, which we'll talk about over the course of the season.

Bain is one of the guys that I felt really good about entering the draft that still I feel even better about right now. We talked about feel for the game earlier. He's got the feel. He's got the intelligence. To me, I was surprised he slid to 30. I thought he made a lot of sense for Brooklyn had they stayed at 19. And on draft night, I would have said the same thing. And Bain is going to be a player for a long time.

And I wish we could see him in Brooklyn right now because they could use somebody like him. Spenture didn't, what he losing him, a jumbo-sized point guard. Bain's on a point guard. He's not running a lot of high pick and roll for you. But he can run the occasional pick and roll. And he's fit in nicely alongside John Morant. And I think he'll also fit alongside Jaron's Action Jr. Another big you really like in Memphis charts.

Yeah, I mean, Bain, I didn't love him, but maybe I overthought. because he can really shoot it. And the trend seems to be, for a while now, if you come under the league and you can really shoot, there's a place for you right away, right? Like, there's always room for guys who can really shoot. And once you get in the league, once you get in the rotation,

then you can grow your game from there. And yeah, I mean, who couldn't use another shooter? Just everybody could use one of those guys. Charks, who's the point guard drafted late first round? That's impressed you most. I mean, it's got to be our, I mean, everyone's guy, right, at this point, Peyton 8 Mile Pritchard, right? I mean, he's been incredible.

like he's just been amazing to watch. It's like it's funny because he was great in the pack 12. Oh, he's a senior point guard, blah, blah, blah. But it's like it's the same. The game is like not changed for him at all. He's doing the exact same things in the NBA. And he has been awesome. Yeah, I mean, he just, he, I use this word, a lot of interfaces.

Like, he just interfaces with what the Celtics do really well quickly. And he's ready to play. He was ready to play immediately, clearly. Yeah, he's been really impressive to watch. He's really, really competitive guy. That's something I really like about Peyton Pritchard. Pritchard's one of those guys that makes the draft tough because if you're ranking players by who's most likely to have a 10 year career, you'd probably have Peyton Pritchard as a lottery pick because of what he was at Oregon, what he projected him to be in the NBA's just spark plug off the bench. But if you're drafting for upside, you probably wouldn't have him ranked that highly, nor anybody, nor did anybody have him rank that high, which is why he went all the way to 26th in the draft with Pritchard, with how quickly everything is translated from.

senior season to rookie season. Has he done anything that has made you believe that he can be more than just a spark plug guard? Is there more to his game that he's shown with the Celtics? I think for me, the thing, like, I look back on it now and I had like Malachi Flynn above him. And I think the mistake there, and I look at Pitchard, I remember watching the Raptors game. And you're watching him against Lowry and Van Vleet.

And these are two more undersized point guard. Just like, yeah, they're undersized. they're thick. They kind of got that truck like trunk, the bill to back. That's what Pritchard has, I think, is like, because I had him like in this big pool of like six two comboish point guards. But I think what gives those guys a chance sometimes is having that really thicker, bigger, stronger body.

Like if you're not going to be tall, be strong. I think that's what he's showing right now. And I think it's the same with Lowry and Van Vliet to an extent is like, if you're a guy who's six foot one, six foot two and you're really built, that is a huge advantage compared to like a Malachi Flynn who I still like. But he's a little slight. He's a little slight. Same with Landry Shammit.

They're a little slight in the butt, right? Like, Payton Pritcher is a strong dude. Guys bounce off him already. Yeah, there's an interesting thing that's happened in modern basketball, I feel like, where the floor has stretched out and spread, and bigs have had to get more east-west, you know, laterally proficient. Like, you're going to have to be able to move. You're going to have to be able to fly, close gaps, fly around, things like that,

move quickly in the big open floor. but there's also been like an interesting thing where like the value of guys that can rotate that are smart that can also shoot that can get in the way of movement in the middle of the floor like charts was talking about you know a guy like it's if you can get in the way of like movement and action off ball cutters and things you're going to you're going to be able to sort of like slow down the flow of of an offense just by being in the right spot and bane is another example of a guy like that you're going to be able to and and And an underrated thing, too, is just that it, you know, it eats down on, like, over the top plays. If you can, if you can rotate guys in the way because they just, they're solid. You can't run through them as easily. Let's close us out with draft class. Charks, me, you and Danny Chow back in the day used to home. Has a show called draft class.

Bringing it back. Every episode will do a short segment talking about a draft theme, topic, idea, or a prospect. and today we'll talk about a prospect, Evan Mobley from USC. Charks, you wrote an article breaking down his game for the ringer today with the headline. Evan Mobley is the biggest prize in the 2021 NBA draft.

Please introduce Mr. Mobley to the listeners. Okay, so Evan Mobley is a freshman seven-footer at USC. He has been, you know, number one or number two in his high school class, probably for like three or four years now. He's always kind of been seen as an elite prospect. He's gotten to USC. And I think the numbers aren't always there, but the way he plays, he just hits this intersection of things I just love in big men. Number one, elite defense. He's an

elite rim protector. And he can switch on guards like it's nothing. So he's like seven foot 210, 215, pretty slim right now. But that gives him this really, really quick feet and long arms. So he can guard really well. And then he's also an incredible passer. Like I just like, I just like, love when big men can pass and defend. And he's got one of the best combination of passing and defense I've seen from a seven footer in a long time. And then he also, I think,

has a pretty decent dribble drive game. Like he's not, he definitely has to get tighter with his handle, but he can go from the three point line to the rim pretty consistently just based on having, being seven foot with that kind of burst. And when I look at a seven footer with like handles,

passing, an elite defense, I'm like, man, that's a special special player. And I love watching Mobley. He's already my favorite player in this draft. I don't know if he's like the best for sure, but I'm my favorite player, no question. No, you said he's the best. Stick with it. Go ahead. You said he's number one. I'll have

number one. Don't hit. Do you have him number one? Over Kate Gunningham? I think so for now. For now, yeah, but it's close. He's great too. And it's early on. I mean, the draft isn't for many, many months from now. So, you know, there's plenty of time to make a change. And with Mobley, and he mentioned

he's seven feet, he's also 210 pounds. that is he's got very thin legs. It's something that he needs to get stronger over time. But ultimately, you had a line in your article where you pretty much said, you know, wrestling with Biggs down low isn't as important as being able to switch and be fluid on the perimeter. And I'm with you there.

Like to me, Kyle, Mobley, everything we talked about with Wiseman and Bagley earlier today with some of their struggles or some of the concerns about them, Mobley checks those boxes already. You know, when it comes to feel and passing. It doesn't pop up in the assist turnover ratio, but that dude can pass it and make quick decisions on the floor. Good at reading the floor on defense and rotating and switching

onto guards and wings. There's a lot to like there, man. And it wouldn't shock me if you're ahead of the curve here, Charks, when it comes to saying that there's a chance he goes number one. There's a chance. Maybe not. But he's... I've talked to a few, I've talked to a few NBA folks agreed with me. I mean, it's out there's bubbling. It's a little bubble right now, but it's out there. We need diversity of thought. It's good. I think that the Cade thing, as much as I love Cade, has been a little overwhelming. And you know what? Draft people, draft Twitter. I love you to death. But we do have a tendency to shame people and get a little group thinky. So this is good. I like throwing the stone in there and like throwing this out there because you're right. When you start listing all the different things and you start just kind of looking at that like chart of his skills reaching into these areas, he's ahead of Bagley, a Wiseman and those guys in his versatility. And something. that I really like that you don't see a ton from guys his size. You talked about him getting from the three point line

to the rim. His north-south balance with the ball, like when he gets to the rim, he has good enough coordination and balance to just like outlast people. That's something you see him a lot, do a lot once he gets there. I mean, like he can finish over the top. And he also has both hands.

He can use left or right hand, which that's something like Bagley doesn't have. You know, and either under the floor, too, when it comes to finishing or blocking his shots, I mean, he is so quick titch and has such good hand-eye coordination when it comes to the way he uses his limbs on the defensive end of the floor he's he's impressive man i mean there's a lot to like i know one of the knocks on him in high school was you know toughness and i haven't really seen that pop up too much at USC um i've been impressed with his physicality okay so i have a theory about that

kFC oh i love theories any skilled big man is always going to be knocked for not being tough enough Because it's funny, at the lower levels of the game, it's like, you're seven foot tall, just dunk on these fools. Get them on the block and dunk on them. So I'm from Dallas, right? So I got to see Chris Bosch, Lamarcus Aldridge, all these guys kind of grow on a, it's always the same. Dirk, too soft, shoots too many jumpers, not skill.

That's just always, when you're a skilled big man, you're going to be called soft no matter what. Yeah, I mean, like leveraging your advantage, your athletic advantage I see as a different thing than toughness. I mean like, yeah, I mean, you get into like the questions of like passivity, like DeAndre Aiton got just destroyed for that a lot coming out. Still, I mean, if you, if you check Sun's Twitter, you still see a lot of that stuff floating around. But yeah, like the criticisms of like toughness. I just think there's some sort of like dissonance there between the old school thinking, just looking at the way a guy plays and just naturally being like, oh, he's soft. I see soft as more of just like, do you compete? Like, or do you wilt?

You know, that's kind of a, that's, that's what I look for in terms of toughness and just resilience in general. And there are a lot of different ways to look at that. And to be fair, the other thing with like toughness, I think people will criticize Mobley and rightly to some level. There was a game, I think it was against like Santa Clara where he had like two shots because he just plays in the flow constantly. Mobli's a guy. If he's double the balls moving, he's not going to force his shot. And it's like, well, you are seven feet tall against a bunch of like mid-bager guys. Like, you can force your shots sometimes. And that's something we'll have to work on because he's definitely he's a high field guy but almost to too far an extent where he just feels the game so

much he never looks for a shot there's value and having guys with that mindset though i think you know guys who are will are willing to pass willing to be in the flow willing to defer because you don't necessarily want five guys on the floor all at once who all want the ball in their hands at all times that's what made this is like an extreme example here but that's what makes the golden state warriors work with step and clay and draymond and when they had kd east clay is the guy on that team who is like, you know what, I'm going to get my touches within the flow of the offense. Some nights I'm going to get 25 plus shots. Some nights I might only get 10 or 11. It's all about what it takes to win. And with Mobley, you know, obviously different type of player, different

position. But I don't mind having a guy with that mindset. To me, that's a good thing, especially in a big in today's league. I don't always want my big to be a guy who thinks that they are going to be taking 20 shots per game. You have to be very, very special, very. Very, very. special as a big man in today's league with how inefficient the post is for most players besides joel abid and nikola yokech to do that you need to really be rare to enter that level as a as a go-to option i i look at that as a plus personally when i assess mobile's game because he can do it when he needs to i think and we sometimes we get so caught up in comparing guys in the same draft class whereas i think it's more interested than compare them in the same types of players right

So to me, it's less about is Mobley better than Cade or Jalen Suggs or Jalen Green, but how does you stack up with like DeAndre Aiton, James Wiseman, going back to Sharon Jackson, Bamba, A, Cat, all those guys. Because that's really your peer group, right? Like obviously you have to make this in the draft night, right? But your peer group is a guy that's your position. That's what's going to matter for your career is like, how do you stack up to the best guys at your position?

Less than like comparing to a point guard is somewhat limiting. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's, that actually hits on something. that Chris Ryan and I talked about on his show The Answer this past week was the way that we do that. We have this sort of weird way that we like to pit people

against each other that always isn't helpful of our understanding of them. And I think that what you said is a way more productive way to look at it. That's all we have time for today, guys. Tarks, Kyle. This is a fun for show. Yeah, this is great. I look forward to doing this again in two Wednesdays.

January 27th will be our next show. What do you guys have planned for the rest of your day? What are you up? too. I think I'm working my metaphor game because we all have come with these metaphors next one. That's the key. You're storming the storming the battle lines thing was good. I like that. That's really

true. Okay, yeah. We all have a metaphor for next two Wednesdays from now. Get our metaphor. I'm not optimistic about my metaphor upside, that's for sure. Kevin, you told me to ask you about war zone and your love life. I had that in my notes. Well, you texted me about it last

I was like, wait, what's war zone? Like a video game or something? Oh, man. Listen to dad. Yeah.

You're officially a dad now, Charks. Okay. I have no idea what we're talking about now. And by the way, both Kyle and Charks did become dads this past year. That's true. I don't know.

I mean, you texted me last night if I was playing war zone and how my love life was. I mean, my love life has just been war zone this past year. As opposed to a war zone. Yeah. I nearly have 200 wins. wins in Warzo, which is either completely embarrassing or it is a sign of me being a good citizen,

not hang out with friends only being at home with my mom and hanging out with my friends virtually in Verdance. Warzone is like, it's Call of Duty. You know what Call of Duty is, right? Yeah, yeah, of course. Sounds like this big, you know, Battle Royale game where 150 people are in a lobby at once. and it's a great time. It's really,

it's your, what's your username? The fans can see you out there. The Xbox is Kevin O'Camper. Kevin O'Camper. Yeah. I like camping sometimes. But,

no, no, no updates on my love life, Kyle. I'm no close to joining the daddy ranks like you two guys. Oh, my Lord. There's plenty of time, KFC.

What's it like? Plenty of time to Sire child. Okay. Plenty of time. I should wait. I should wait. Oh, my God. Okay, now that we're talking about siring children, I think this is a good time. Off the rails.

We'll be back with another episode of Ringer NBA University in two weeks on January 27 because we are every other week, every other Wednesday. If you like this episode, please leave a comment with a five-star rating and subscribe or follow the Ringer NBA show wherever you get your podcast. Thank you so much. Have great day, everybody. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.