The Ringer NBA Show - James Harden to Philly? Plus, 2022 All-Star Starter Debates | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

Verrier, Rob, and Wos discuss the James Harden to Philly rumors (2:48), Anthony Davis’s return from injury (24:29), and the rumored Russ for Wall swap. Then they debate their differing opinions about who should be an All-Star starter in each conference (38:57). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre  Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, it's Ariel Hawani of the Ringer MMA show. I'm Chuck Mindenhall. And I'm Pizzie Carroll, and together we are three-pack. Follow and listen to the Ringer MMA feed exclusively on Spotify for all the latest in the world of mixed martial arts. And join us live on Spotify Green Room after every big event. See you then. Love you. Mwach.

Welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. Rob Mahoney. The cat daddy, Big Waz is here. How's it feel to be a father? It's amazing, honestly. We're taping this on Wednesday. I picked up Mimi from the shelter on Friday.

I haven't had... That's a lie. In a previous relationship, we had a dog, but that was her dog. And then before that, I didn't have a pet since I was maybe six, five years old. We also had a cat named Mimi. So I decided to name the cat

in remembrance of me and... Mimi. Rest of peace, Mimi. She probably died in some Brooklyn alleyway. That's brutal. That got pretty bleak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, the cat, like, man,

and I'm not ashamed to put my mom on blast on the podcast, man. We got to be honest with the people. We came home and the cat had either pissed or, like, you know, did its business everywhere. Or somehow messed up the house. We had come back from some family party. And my mom just put it out. It was just like, all right, you're homeless now.

And back in those days in New York, like, the, like, stray cat population was, like, incredible, right? So, like, that wasn't nothing. It was just like, all right, back when you came, from when to you came. And, yeah, Mimi was out on the street. So I'll never forget that day. But, yeah, this cat will be with me for the next, you know, 15, 18, however many years, Mimi lives.

That's what we like to hear. And in the meantime, I love. look forward to the letters from PETA about your mom's cat treatment. Me too. Better, new and improved. Faster, better, stronger. Better taking care of under Waz's care. All right.

Well, congrats on being a father. Thank you. Welcome to the team. All right. Today we're going to get into some all-star picks later in the episode because, believe it or not, that it happens, the starters are being announced on Thursday tomorrow when we're recording and the reserves the following week. You wouldn't know that because everybody gets their picks out pretty much on January 1st, but we're doing a little counter programming and doing it

closer to the actual announcements. But first, we need to talk about some news burbling out there with two of the higher profile teams in the league, including two people who played last night against each other, Lakers and the Nets. I want to start with James Hardin here because that seems like the one that has more ripple effects or at least long-term implications here. So it seems like based on the reports out there that Philly has set its eyes on James Hardin again, Darry is beckoning him back to the bosom. I guess, was like, what do you think about the whole, like, pursuit of James Hardin? Do you buy it? Do you think this is a solution to their Ben Simmons problem? Wait, beckoning back to the bosom, we're just going to let that fly by.

James Harden feeding on Darrow Morey's tit. That's an amazing visual. That's going to be the art for this podcast post. Look, what I would say is, like many things that we see in the media specifically, you know, it's a leverage play on the part of the Sixers with other teams. It's like, don't play with us with your weak-ass trade. proposals, shoot, we can wait this out till James Harden. We hear he's really sweet on us.

We hear he's tired of Kyrie's diva non-vaccinated ass. We hear he doesn't really like being in Brooklyn that much. We're hearing all kinds of things. We can wait you guys out, right? And I think that's the signal, especially, you know, with Darry being so, let's say, media savvy or just straight up having freaking friends in the media, you know, which I don't think it's a crime, you know.

I'm not surprised when these kinds of things come out. I don't know that it's anything more than the Sixers basically telling teams you need to have a proper offer ready if you want Ben Simmons because we can get a superstar

in the offseason, possibly maybe, who knows? Yeah, I think the tell here is all of the intel that's coming out around the Sixers situation and Hardin specifically. It both articulates the fact that the Sixers do genuinely, I think, want James Harden. They want to show James Harden their interest

in this big public way. That's item one. Two, as was saying, it helps their leverage by trying to extend this thing, by telling these other teams and broadcasting to them that they need to be more serious in their offers. And item three, it's broadcasting to Ben Simmons that, look, we're still willing to play a longer game with this,

even though you've already sat out this many games. Like, that tick-tack toe of all benefiting the Sixers, I think probably hints at where some of this information is coming from. I want to hit on that first part, though, because we could talk about, like, maybe some of the Sixers' other options that this is indeed just a leverage play

to get the Kings or the Hawks involved more. Would you, if you were Daryl and you have Joel Embed playing at an MVP level, and that's not even hyperbole anymore, I think he might be the frontrunner for MVP, if not in, like, the top two or three, especially after games like last night where he dropped 42 points and basically

just came back on a spunky Pelicans, team all of a sudden. Would you want James Hardin going to be 33 years old next season, still struggling to find his way, particularly with the referees to the point where he was complaining about them the other day, still a couple months

into the season, would you want him, Rob, specifically to pair with a guy like Embed? I mean, he's still pretty awesome. He's still hanging triple doubles on teams. He's still dominating in one-on-one situations, certainly relative to what we saw earlier in the season. Like, he just looks healthier, he looks more explosive, he looks more capable. I don't think he's the perfect

fit. And I say that for a couple of reasons. One, he's obviously a guy who needs the ball on his hands. But beyond that, he's a guy who teams don't even really guard to catch and shoot because he doesn't want to catch and shoot. So when you kick out to him, if you're Joel and B kicking out to James Hardin on one of your post-ups, James is going to catch it and jab step and then dribble and then do some stuff with the ball. If he were a little bit more willing to just catch and shoot. He's one of the best shooters in the NBA. He just takes incredibly difficult shots, in part because he wants to take incredibly difficult shots. Yeah, and then this isn't one of those things where you trade away all these pieces

for somebody like, say, Anthony Davis, and he's like pretty complimentary to LeBron as far as a pick and roll finisher, as far as erasing defensive mistakes on the back end, being a switchable guy, even, like, just what LeBron does, AD seamlessly fits into that. I don't know that James Hardin and B pick and roll becomes this immediately unstoppable force, right? Because of Hardin's dribble, dribble, dribble, all of this kind of stuff. And then, you know, obviously he's a minus on defense. And the Simmons trade would not be a one for one.

James Hardin is way better than Ben Simmons. 150 million thousand times better than Ben Simmons. And so, therefore, you might have to trade a Seth Curry. You might have to put in a maxi. You might have to put in a tie bowl. You might have to sacrifice some of your depth, which when you're traded for a superstar, you shouldn't be afraid of.

But at a certain point, when your stars aren't complimentary, right? And they're not erasing, you know, the need for high-quality role players. that becomes an issue as well. I'm actually, and I said this on Bill's show yesterday, I don't think that's an ideal fit. I don't think that's a good fit, to be honest, hardening and be together. I realize Darrow's philosophy has always been

getting me my superstars and I'll figure out the rest. I don't know that that's the best fit. But, you know, again, if you're the Sixers and your choice is, you know, toughing it out with Tobias Harris and, you know, whatever you get for Ben, Simmons and all of that kind of stuff. I understand the appeal of bringing in an MVP like James Hardin. I worry about if Hardin isn't getting to the basket or isn't manufacturing free throws

is often like, is that going to clog things up? Because that threat of not being able to get there is going to force him to take maybe more bad shots. I worry on defense because you probably want to switch more with a Hardin. You utilize his bulk a little bit more. But like, in Beads, probably someone you don't want to switch with. And like in B, and Hardin is probably at his best. with a Nick Claxton, like, vertical spacer.

And while Embed, like, asserts his force on the entire court, I wouldn't necessarily say he's, like, a hopper, you know, Gerald Green style. So I'm a little, like, iffy on it, on the other hand, I guess timing-wise, if you're saying Embed is ready to win MVP and Hardin is still close to MVP level, you're paying for this window one to two seasons. But that could get dicey. And to Woz's point, I think if it is an uneasy fit, you need the guys around them to be better fits and so it puts a lot of

onus on Mori to figure out the guys around them. It's definitely trickier than you would think from one all-time guard score and one potentially all-time Big Man talent. You know, like it's just not as seamless as it could be. And Lois, I'm glad you brought up

the pick and roll part of that and hardened propensity to just dribble, dribble, dribble, in terms of the execution to his great benefit. Like one of the best one-on-one creators and pick and roll creators ever. But Big Man typically are either guys who

they either need the ball early on the role or late on the role, depending on their skill set, right? Like the Rudy Gobert types, the Clint Capella types, those guys are guys you get late with the lob. Those are the guys that Harden works well with. The ones you need to get the ball early to, like an Embed who, part of his

incredible value as a player, is that you can get him the ball at the three point line at the free throw line. He can throw some moves at guys, take one or two long strides and draw a ton of fouls, get a lot of easy buckets that way. he's so mobile and you want to take advantage of that in that specific way, that just doesn't seem super compatible to me in terms of what those two guys want to do.

Yeah, and then another thing on the basketball side of this, it's been said a lot. Like, James Harding, when he doesn't have the ball, doesn't really do anything. And so, and not even, like, on the spot up, like, just literally doesn't move, right? And we remember the classic JJ Reddick, Jo L.N. B. two-man game. where, like, Joelle possessed this ability to operate it from the elbow and, like, hit guys, you know? Like, and that was part of some of the criticisms with his turnovers that he had tunnel vision, and he's developed himself into a better passer, and you wonder, would James Harden even do that?

Like, unlock those things again for Joel. Probably not. He hasn't been this kind of, like, off-ball, like, sort of, you know, read-and-react kind of guy. he's just been, give me the ball, set a screen, I'll find the creases in the defense. If they switch, I'll beat the guy in front of me. He's beating the guy in front of him at a less and less clip. You know, God bless.

Having said all that, though, I do wonder if playing with an Embed and making those necessary tweaks, not necessarily sacrifices, but tweaks to his approach is better than like going out there with Kessler Edwards and DeAndre Benbury and just rolling back like, the early era Ryan Anderson

Rockets and just doing the one-man show thing, like it must suck to do what he does right now and to be right back into the situation where he has to do everything when on one hand, maybe that's his preference, but on the other hand,

like, you know, he's getting up there in age. It would be nice if Kyrie was there all the time to at least handle like half of the burden. I don't even know that his preference is to do everything so much as he wants to operate in space. And there's minimal space. There's minimal guys on the floor

who can threaten to shoot. It's rough right now for the Nets just in terms of the execution of their offense because it's very much Hardin and Patty Mills and offensive rebounds. That's kind of it. That's their whole engine. Yeah.

Yeah, you can see it last night. When Hardin wasn't on the floor, like just forget about the concept of shock creation on this team without Kyrie. And when Patty Mills is on the floor, the Lakers were just loading up on this dude. Ain't a right. We ain't worried.

about nobody shooting the rock. Like, excuse me. There's one guy who's a threat from three for real. And then there's you. It was just so easy to guard this team without Kyrie. But that being said, like, this is not the team, right? Katie's going to come back eventually. Kyrie obviously is doing his road games.

Who knows if a resolution will come in the state of New York? You know, I told you guys, we got a new black mayor. This guy is, he's breaking barriers. So he might restrict. You know, he might, you know, lower the COVID restrictions as far as workplaces and all of that kind of stuff. So we'll see. I think this stuff is temporary, the frustrations that Hardin is going through in Brooklyn. What might not be temporary, though, is if there's resentment built up during this time.

If every time Hardin checks in for work, he's thinking at home, he's thinking in the back of his mind, why isn't Kyrie here? Like, why do I have to do this by myself when, again, Patty Mills is the only office? offensive threat on the floor. And to that end, too, Patty Mills has turned out to be one of the most important signings, one of the most important additions of the season, but for totally different reasons than we thought. He's not the piece that puts this mega talented team over the top. Like right now, he might be the only thing keeping the bottom from falling out for the Nets offense. I like how we're panting Harden as if he's about to join like the Reddit anti-work movement. It's too much. I can't do it.

But I do wonder if actually if we're playing devil's advocate to this point. Like I wonder if it almost works in the Nets favor because I wonder if Hardin gets a lot of the love and the reception perhaps for doing all the hard work while KD is out and while Irving is like on this weird sojourn he's on. Like he is putting he's the one holding down the fork at home essentially. And I do wonder if there's a renewed appreciation for him day by day, game by game without Kyrie happening. And I wonder if that solves that. Like maybe that, like, maybe that's enough to make him feel good about the situation. Look, I think the playoffs happened last year.

Kyrie was out again. Hardin was limited by injury. You know, he was nursing the hammy. And they couldn't beat the bucks, right? Like, I think Hardin understands, like, no, we, we kind of need all of us here and hoping to win. We lost. last year without Kyrie and I was limited. Like, I think he knows that they need all three of their big guys. The team is built based on the concept that they have three incredible players. You take out one aspect of that concept. It's no longer the concept, right?

Like, they didn't build the kind of team that was like, all right, a whole slew of competent role players around these two stars or, no, it's three stars. and we figure everything out, Joe Harris, Patty Mills, Blake Griffin's broke down body, whatever, right? But that's not what's happening right now, and I think Harden understands, this ain't going to get it done.

Not when it matters. Do you like any of these other options that have been kind of coming to the four over the past couple days weeks? I mean, we talked about the Kings in the past. I guess the Hawks are the new-ish one. That one seems a little complicated, because I don't know if John Collins or whomever they're going to send to Philly

and that deal construction really fits Darrell Mori's preferences, his big top 40 list that he needs to check off. But they're kind of the hot teams at the moment. Do any of those situations, Rob, get you excited? Or at the very least they push you to finally come to the conclusion on the Ben Zippin situation? Not terribly. And some of it is what Daryl has talked about on the radio himself, is the things that are plaguing the Sixers right now are primarily rebounding in defense. Like that's what they need. Playmaking would be great.

It'd be great to have another creator, another supplementary pick and roll guy. That would be nice. They need defense. They need rebounding. Neither one of those is exactly John Collins' strong suit. And when you're committing to another big who doesn't do either of those things

that are really high level, I don't know that you're really moving the needle that much, even if you're picking up, you know, another shooter in that deal or another potential starter, another guy to come off the bench. All that would be nice. All of that's nicer than not having Ben Simmons this season for sure.

Like, you're getting guys to plug in, but you're not really solving the fundamental problems. Yeah, I don't think John Collins is the type of defender that solves Tray Young and Cam Reddish perimeter defense, right? But I think on the Sixers, he would be incredible next to Joel, right? on the defensive side, when you do have, and, you know, Tybal isn't like your traditional shutdown, the point of attack kind of guy, but like they have guys at the point of attack who can do credible jobs,

if not elite. And I think Collins would be really good because, you know, he is pretty switchable. I think he can be a good enough rebounder. I don't know, I'm in the bag for John Collins just, what I watch him do in the playoffs and what I think he has the potential to do in the right situation. But I don't think the Sixers,

I think they have, you know, they have delusions of grandeur. I don't think John Collins is the type of cat, especially at his sticker price that they envision bringing in. I'm still thinking, man, in Sacramento, man. They're going to get De Aaron Fox in there,

you know, keep the basically like, all right, De Aaron Fox is still he's still going to be a sexy pedigree type of guy that can still be moved if we don't like what we get from it and I still think that's the deal that makes the most sense. Let me throw this out there

because the Hawks are also rumored to be in pursuit of Jeremy Grant like seven other teams that need just like a stopper on the wing. What if in the construction I think would be a Collins for Grant sort of situation because it seems like increasingly Collins wants to change of scenery

or maybe the hawks just want to shake things up enough and he's like the most likely person to do it with. What if the Sixers actually went to the Pistons and got Jeremy Grant for a collection of like, let's say, a thibble, a maxi, picks, and use Grant as there Ben Simmons for this season and used Ben Simmons eventually to trade for a guard, like a Hardin, like a Lillard, whoever.

Fox may be down the line, and maybe do both deals at the same time. So it's Fox and Jeremy Grant. Jeremy Grant coming home, baby, to play with Joelle Embed. I kind of like that if you retain enough pieces on the wing in order to maintain shooting and defense. No?

I think the hang up there is that there's been significant suggestion that Thibel and Maxi have held up major deals that the Sixers could have made. They were the sticking point that the Sixers did not want to give up for potential star players? Are they really going to give up one or both of those guys to get Jeremy Grant? I hear what you're saying. Right, because was it Maxi they didn't want to include reportedly in the deal for James Hardin

originally from Houston? I could see that. I mean, where are we on Maxi, though? Like, I think he's good and could develop into something pretty good. But, like, you know, he's had iffy moments. I don't think he's ready to compete for a title and be a starter on a title team right now. look Maxie held up a Kyle Lowry deal last year

that's ridiculous I think we can all agree that was ridiculous that was legitimately a fuckup if the reporting is to be believed right? Like look at what Kyle Lowry has done in Miami with the type of players

that he's done it with when you consider the major injuries to Bam and Jimmy over there. These guys are at the top of the conference still because of Kyle Lowry and Therese Maxie held up a deal. And again, and it's not even just this year, last year. The bucks were right for the taking, right for the picking, excuse me. You know, you name it. Everybody was right for the picking.

They could have won that damn title last year with a Kyle Lowry. So, yeah, the maxy thing, I think he's become, you know, especially where he got taken to be this early show that he's clearly an NBA rotation, borderline starting point guard type of cat. That's amazing. That's awesome.

Is he the type of cat? It's like, we're turning this dude into Roddy Bobois part two. Damn there. Untouchable. Untray. It's like, come on. Let's get some, you know, let's get some difference makers, game changers in the

here. Let's try to win a damn championship with Joelle and Bede who's playing at a big man level we haven't seen since what? O.1 Shack? You know what I'm saying? Like, let's get it together. Well, but there's two different conversations

here. There's, do you give up Tyrese for someone like Lowry, who would be a perfect fit, a great culture setter, really would have taken them to another level? And do you give him up for someone like Deere and Fox who, I'm not so sure that he's Fox is a significant upgrade over Tyrese Maxine, where he is right now.

I think he is. At least in the context of a point guard next to, but next to Joel M. B, do you think he is? Like, Maxie, Maxie's shooting 41% from three this season. He's doing the things that they need him to do. I'm not sure Fox can do a lot of those things. Listen, Embed is running the break now, man. Him and Fox in the open court.

Who even needs point guards if Joel M. B's running the break, though. I know. I mean, I credit Daryl, though, because he is factoring in the long term and not just pushing everything into the table to just make this one year, the next two years work. Maxi is the prime example of that. And so I guess the counter that would be like Fox is young enough. And if you believe that he's enough of a distressed asset, if there's enough upside there that isn't tapped into in the Sacramento system, which has produced so many All-Stars out of there, then maybe it makes a little more sense. He's 24 years old. So I don't know.

I think it's interesting. All right. Let's flip to the other side of last night's game because Anthony Davis back, not better than ever, unfortunately. Meager returns offensively, but you can start to see the signs of him impacting the defense. I guess quickly before we turn to the chaos brewing

amidst all of this joyous return. Like Anthony Davis back, do you feel any more hopeful about the last? Lakers, Rob. Well, yeah, they're better with one of the best players in the league. That's for sure. For as much as we've talked about their offense and the issues there and all the fit problems, having AD back just changes the complexion of a lot of what they do defensively. And you could see it in this game where they didn't play Dwight Howard at all. They just played AD and LeBron and Stanley Johnson at center. And that totally changed how they could guard pick and roll.

You know, that that's a huge deal for them that AD is the guy switching on to Hardin. And Hardin is still going to get his, but it's what allows you to limit all those other guys, to play all those other shooters the way you do when you have someone solid on the ball, you know, an all-NBA level defender who can switch into those situations. So that's a big deal, even when he's in game one coming back off an MCL spring. Yeah, and they were doing a lot of their scramble stuff where you know, LeBron or whoever's guarding you in the perimeter sort of funnels you into a spot and they trust that you're not going to make the right read on the back line or on the the kickout.

And it was working against the Nets because it was like James Johnson and a bunch of cats who were like, wait, hold on. Wait, hold on. That's AD right there. What are we supposed to do? Godzilla. Just were there. They forced so many turnovers yesterday.

And again, no Kyrie, no KD. These are elite on ball, you know, playmaking, decision makers, defensive dissectors. We get that. But they were able to turn this team over something they just. we're not doing without AD. Okay? Like they were not doing against even the worst teams

in the NBA. And for me, the AD thing is two things. One, immediately they're way better on defense, which has to be the case. And two, I think now what they have to do

is start work... Offensively, they have to start working through AD and getting buckets through AD looks, right? Like whether it's, you know, finding him different pick and roll partners

that aren't LeBron, two-man game type of stuff. You know, just different AD-centric offense so that it's not so heavily, you know, beholden to LeBron being an all-world player. That's what Vogel got to do now, but I think offensively they'll be fine to figure it out. I just think defensively they got to figure out a way to at least just play, like, average defense, man,

which you should be able to do. with Anthony Davis on your team playing full-time. Yeah, I'm not as worried about the defense, especially because some of the maneuvers they've made, Stanley Johnson being the primary one, seems to be to fix the defensive side of the ball. And it seems like their plan is to just be a good enough defense and just let LeBron run rampage,

like through every team in the league, because he's not only on this kind of miraculous run he's on at age 37 years old, but he's also talking about how he needs to be on this run and how he needs to do everything he can on the court in order. Because, yeah, you're right, it is true. And I'm just, it's concerning me because in order to get those defensive players, like, I'm looking around. And I know it's the first game with AD back.

They're probably going to be way better by next week and two weeks from now. But like, you're adding another non-shooter. And we're at the point where LeBron James is probably the best three-point shooter, at least the most willing. I guess Avery Bradley starts. And at one point, he had some shooting to his game. maybe back in Boston, but like, I don't know.

It's like they don't, they're like playing 1950s basketball without a three point line. Bradley, that does, those line up permutations. We need to stop that. And even AD is like shooting 17% from three. Like maybe that bounces back after his recovery.

But like, this is a very gross offense that LeBron is like basically just, like manufacturing into something decent. But boy, is he? I mean, he's, I guess that's the point.

He's been incredible. And there were so many baskets in that game. They were just like totally humbling to the Kessler Edwards of the world, who is a big wing, who's doing everything he can. And LeBron just hits turnarounds over him so, so easily. You could see how the Lakers would talk them into or talk themselves into. Oh, what if we just put the ball in the hands of one of the best players in basketball history and see if it might work?

But I do think we're on, to Waz's point, rotation watch for the Lakers for the rest of the year. What are they going to do with these player combinations to make it work to maximize these guys? Because we've already seen, as I mentioned, Dwight was out of the rotation for this game. Is that a longer trend or is that something against kind of a small ball team in the nets? Trevor Reza was out of the rotation for this game. I think that's important because he's one of those guys who is technically a shooter, but treated very much like a non-shooter. So the more they can trim those guys from the rotation, the better. The more they can try to get some more threatening players on the floor, the better.

especially if they're going to have AD and Stanley Johnson and Avery Bradley and Russell Westbrook You got to get some spacing around those guys To the best you can Yeah and Mello and Malik Monk Which is just absurd that Mello's being counted on to this degree But the thing about Mello is that like Because teams know he's gonna shoot

Like they guard him You know like they guard him He actually does have gravity and has spacing and provides, you know, some pressure release, right? Like, as a release valve for that offense, that's so sorely lacking in it. But it's really just him and Monk. Like, and Monk has come on as a guy who's just like,

I'm shooting. It's green light season over here for Monk. So those two things are encouraging to see. But again, like, it's really going to be put. This offense is going to, like, as far as, like, level of continuity type of stuff that doesn't look like it's just ground and pound and just nasty 1990s or excuse me early 2000s hooping. It's just going to be predicated on LeBron just getting this shit done.

Yeah. Mello kind of looks at times like the Dan Marley of the team where it's like 90 style basketball where everyone is like 610 and then you had one designated shooter who shoots like two three is a game. That is essentially what Mel's become, but I guess more power to him. He does, like, shoot with confidence. I'll say that. But does Malik Monk have the best job in the NBA?

It's a pretty good job. Yeah. Get open. So LeBron James can throw you accurate ass passes and, man, there was, yo, there were times yesterday with like, I know what's been said, but Russ was making me sad. Oh my goodness. He just

looks so, like he airballed the one three. And I don't even think it was a pull-up. No, it was a pull-up. But he just completely whiffed on. And I was just like, whoa. Oh, the passes are so inaccurate. Just passes at guy's knees.

Passes that don't even get there. I'm just like, oh. Well, to that point, I would talk about Russ because he is yet again in the news here. Basically, I think everyone knows the saga at this point, the newest, not even chapters, but half-step progress here. ESPN has a story where basically Vogel is fine for now, for the time being at least was the specific verbiage, which, you know, a lot of confidence there until the ram by get involved and all of a sudden they change coaches and they're playing four centers at a time. But I think it basically like pointed to how difficult it would be to actually change the situation just given Russell Westbrook's performance and his contract.

The loan, I guess, option, it seems like, would be to once again, trade Russell Westbrook for John Wall. The reports indicate that in order to do so, the Rockets would want a first round pick, which I believe is so far in the distance that it could be particularly interesting because if this is like a 2027 Lakers pick, there's a chance that we're back into DeAngelo, Russell, Swaggy P era Lakers, and this is like a top five pick. But I guess the essential question is, would you do that if the Lakers is a wall for Russ swap enough of an upgrade in air quotes in order to get rid of Russ. I'm a little concerned that if they get traded for each other again, it's going to be a

time loop situation. Like, we're just going to reset. We're going to go through the vortex. Who's the Bruce Rolls here in the looper situation? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what the point of that deal is for a guy who's not even been allowed to play. you know, what are you doing that deal based off of is it so like if it's so toxic at the

workplace, you know, in the locker room with Russ where everybody's hating him, he's not talking to anybody and it's a problem, then yeah, maybe you think about, you know, just trying to wipe your hands of this. But outside of that, what's, what is the proof that we have that John Wall can be a better player than Russell Westbrook? We haven't even seen it. Like Houston, you got to put that. If you want a first round pick,

for me to take that dude off of your hands, you better put that on tape. We need to see this guy actually play and do something on a basketball court. If you're going to be asking folks for first round picks, that's ridiculous. The number one reason that trade will not happen is that it would be an admission by Rob Polinka

that he made a catastrophic mistake. And that just never happens. Like general managers, people were in basketball operations. The reason they ride with the guys they draft, the reason they ride with the guys they trade for is because they're not willing to publicly admit those kinds of things. And so to trade for a guy who, as we've been talking about,

has not been playing NBA basketball. I mean, that would be as loud an admission as you could possibly make. The theory would be that Wall is a less offensive version of Westbrook at this point. Like, he probably doesn't play defense at the level he did in his prime,

considering his injuries and the fact that he hasn't done anything in half a season. but maybe he's a little bit better on offense. And maybe he gets out on the break and is able to do enough with LeBron off the floor for the 10 to 15 minutes that they can actually stomach that these days in order to like get AD involved a little bit more. And like he's not much of a shooter like Russ,

but maybe he's hitting one three-pointeer game as opposed to going 0 for four. You know, like he's basically just like the less brutal version. This is the saddest trade pitch for involving two multi-time all-stars, decorated NBA guys that I've ever heard in my life. Like, you know, I'm somebody who, again, I'm big John Wall fan over the years, right? Especially when he was at his physical peak when, you know, he was a guy meeting dudes at the rim blocking shots, like an on ball just menace. you know, leading the league and corner threes generated from assists. Like, he was such a dope player to watch when his body was right.

And I do think at the very least, when it comes to pick and roll operation and like just basic placing a pass where a dude can catch it and score, he'll be better at that. You know, I don't know that he has more one-on-one juice than Russ has now, even though Russ's like, it's sometimes, like, it looks funny coming out of his, his layups look funny coming out of his hands now. You're talking yourself into it. No, no, no, I can't. I can't. The John Wall thing, I just can't.

And I love John Wall. It's just, I haven't seen, like, they have to play him first. You got to show me, man. Like, put a two-week stress of John Wall going out there being an obvious NBA point guard. Maybe he's like the 20th best starting point guard in the NBA, 25th best. Show me him doing that. And all right, maybe I'll buy this. But like right now, I feel like John Wall is a 12 minute a game God.

Let me ask you this. What if it's not a first round pick? What if it's a THT? Oh. And you're just getting something. Yeah. Get THT out of my building. Because my other offer was going to be, let's just do it straight up.

And if you're the Rockets, you've been given assurances that Westbrook will commit to a buyout, which John Moll wouldn't. So you're getting him out of your building. and you're saving some money because that's probably where we're going to end up somewhere in this range because the initial offer isn't going to be the same thing

as their final offer at the deadline, right? But I think the Rockets are still hoping that there will be another taker for John Wall when there's less time left on his contract. Like we roll into the summer. Yeah, somebody doesn't have a point guard in the off season and wants to take a swing because they have other star players

and want a flashy name to work alongside those guys. I think that's the option they're playing for And the idea of, you know, if you're the Rockets, if you're Tillman Furtita, of paying Russell Westbrook slightly less money to go away, I don't think it's consistent with the way that franchise has operated. I haven't looked at the books of some of his local casinos or whatever his businesses are. So I don't know, but maybe. I will say this out. Mostly restaurants. He's a hotelier. He's a restaurateur. Come on, Justin. Get it together.

Great. Yeah, it's probably a bunch of like chilies. Great buttercake at Mastros. Anybody who's ever able to go there, please do yourself a favor. and order that buttercake. I'll just say that I'm looking at John Wals basketball reference play. And under his, like, lost 2019-20 season, know how it usually says, like, did not play, injury, dash, whatever. Is his injury dash, left heel, Achilles infection? Which is like, I forgot how brutal that situation is.

All right, let's pivot now to All-Stars. We're running a little behind here. So let's just do the starters. We're going to focus entirely on the debates, where we don't agree, essentially, because there is a lot of agreement on these All-Star ballots here. Let's start in the East.

I believe we all had in the front court, Kevin Durant, Janice, Jewel, and Bede. unanimous. unanimous. Those three guys are all MVP front runners, as well as Yolkits and Steph, probably. They've been, I mean, I think KD's been the best player in the conference when he's played.

And, like, come on, Joel, not far behind. Yannis, obviously, like these guys, they're killing people, of course. I appreciate all three of those guys for making it incredibly easy. Just chalk, big, bang, boom, let's move on. Great. And we'll do the same talking about them. Let's move to the back court now, which Waz and I agree on both players. Rob, you have two completely different players, I believe.

Actually, no, you have one different player. Waz and I have DeMarta Rosen and Trey Young. Oh, yeah. have Trey Young and Zach Levine. So, DeMarrozen doesn't play guard. I don't know what to tell you.

He's not a guard. The problem is on the All-Star ballots, he is a guard. Well, you filled out your own, like, professional, official All-Star Ballard.

What was he eligible for? He was technically eligible for guard in the way that Nicola Yokic was eligible, and Joel and Bede were eligible for forward last season for All-N-B-A. That doesn't make it true. I'm not as stringent about All-Star because honestly, once we get to the reserves,

you're basically like who's less offensive, who is like above average enough to fit into this last wild card spot. So here's the thing, right? DeRosen does not guard guards for the Bulls. But in my mind's eye, because I'm washed, when I think of a guard... That's who we're working with your mind's eye?

Yeah, when I think of a guard, a 6-5 dude who always has the ball in his hands. That's not a guard? I don't know what to tell people. Like, you know, like, look, if we could do this in the reverse where Caruso never does anything with the ball in his hands. Yeah. That doesn't take away from his guardness?

I feel like it should if we're going to do it on defense, right? Like, I feel like that should take away from how guardy you are if you never touch the damn ball. I don't know what to tell you other than the fact that the Bulls fell out a piece of paper before every game telling us DeMarre Rosen is a front court player. Yeah, he's a powerful. He's played

zero guard minutes by lineup this season. I don't know what more to do with that other than the... And it really is complicated by the fact that when you get to the reserves, him being a guard instead of a forward creates problems. Like, I think there are lots of good guards this year. And it creates

a lot of situations where you have to pick and choose for the wild card spots. How am I going to manage this because one of these guys is playing the wrong position by ballot. Also, it's all kind of irrelevant because Kevin Duran is going to be injured and D'Marter Rosen would get his place anyway. Sure. Sure. So I'm not too hung up on it beyond the exercise itself, which, look, I respect what the NBA is trying to do and I'm trying to follow the rules by voting guards as guards. I'll also point out that Levine has played small forward for a majority of the season. So if we're being really technical about this.

Like, shouldn't he be a forward as well? He's at least played some guard. So basically, you don't, if Derozen was allowed to be a guard and like you didn't have this hang up about it, you have no problem of voting Derozen over Lovie. This is purely semantics. Yeah, Deroza has been better than Zach Levine this season. He just doesn't play the position that would allow him to be a starter. It's unfortunate.

The fans are going to vote him anyway. The players are going to vote him anyway. what I think is ultimately pretty irrelevant. I just don't think by the letter of what the NBA has laid out here, it should fly. I saw this on paper and I was like, oh, this is going to be a really interesting debate. Like, Rob, like, values Levine's stretchability more.

Yeah, I thought that's where he was going. I was like, oh, maybe he's going with like, nah, like a three-level score, and Levine has picked up his defense and blah, blah, blah. He's just going straight stickler for the books. But, like, let me ask you something. If, like, DeMarre d'Ros will retire. tomorrow. I know we have to consider

this season, but let's just say he did. Would he retire as a forward or a guard? What are they going to put him in the Hall of Fame as a guard or a forward? Guard forward. Swing man. I think, like, I don't think people see him as Bron, K.D., Paul George, like, you know,

these forwards. Like, he's a guard. I always, like, that's why I'm just like, you know, I understand that they've been, they, they, they, they have not, they've kept them as far away from perimeter defense as humanly possible, which is great strategy. Shouts to Billy Donovan.

He's, you know what? I want to take this time to apologize to Billy Donovan because I ain't never give that man no respect as a coach. But this is the first season that he's actually like been allowed to coach. Because like, you got to think about it. It was like Westbrook and K.D. Then Westbrook, which like, you're not coaching. And then Chris Paul, which is like, you're not coaching.

you're not coaching. And he's like, he's gotten a chance to coach and he's done an amazing job. So I just wanted to say that. He didn't need to now because he has like two starters left. Yeah, that's which is a bummer. But like I feel like DeMarre Rosen is a guard. Like, I get that he's not guarding perimeter dudes,

but he's never been some forward. I don't know. Maybe I'm just stupid in that way. Not to turn this into a Rob Mahoney blog post from like 2009, but I don't think positions matter. Like, why can't just put the top five players? This is the thing. I am the furthest from dogmatic about positions, but the NBA has told us pick players by front

quarterback court. I'm trying to honor their wishes as best I can. And I think DeRosen is a front court player in the same way that like Paul Pierce became a power forward over the course of his career. Sure. That Paul George is increasingly not a shooting guard. He's much more of a three and sometimes a four for the clippers. I just think that's the way a lot of these guys' careers go.

they get deeper into it. And the Bulls explicitly play him at power forward. I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, we could also get into how a Paul George three is essentially like no different than a two because like you're just using wings at that point. But that's a whole other story. Well, let's talk about the other guard spot quickly because we all picked Tray Young, which I think is a bit of a zag from what I've seen out there.

I think some people have James Harden. Yeah, I saw Ben Goliver had Harden perhaps because of the reason burden he's had to go I mean, the statistical resume is pretty unimpeachable, just the raw data, although I will say Hardin's efficiency is pretty putrid. He's shooting 41% from the floor, 34% from 3, which is pretty bad considering the volume he has. Did you guys consider either a Levine or Hardin or somebody else was for that last guard spot? Nah, because Tray Young, that team is top five offense. that you can go look at the on-off metrics because of Tray Young, period.

He is carrying. He is the reason a unit is elite. And look, it's not like he's surrounded by just garbage, offensive players. No, he has pretty good offensive players around it. But the reason why they are elite is because Tray Young. It's not because, because if you take John Collins out of those minutes and you plug in some other guy and you keep everything the same,

the offense going to still churn. You can say that up and down that lineup, replace all of them, and with some average replacement and keep everything the same, it's going to be incredible and it's going to be because Trey Young is doing that. So, like, we violated, we disrespect him

by putting some bonus in that damn all-star game above Trey Young, which was just disgusting on the voters part. We're not doing it again. And matter of fact, we put them in as a starter. Tray Young, obvious each starter at the guard position. I'm looking forward to the super cut at the end of the season of all the sub bonus name drops from Waz-erance this season.

But the on-off numbers that Waz mentioned, the Hawks are 13.9 points per 100 possessions better offensively with Trey Young on the floor. To me, it wasn't that close between him and Levine, him and these other candidates. I just think he is so exemplary in what he does, and there's such an element of like what else is he supposed to do, I guess, you know, he could be better defensively, absolutely.

Well, certainly. But within the capacity and the purview of his job, I think he's almost as good as it gets offensively in terms of running a show, creating at a super high level, really visionary playmaking. Trey Young is awesome. 46, 38, 90. I just think like he's been the best version of himself this year

where he's not only just passing it at an elite level, which is something that he's been doing pretty steadily since his rookie season, but like the shooting has come along and you're seeing the complete package. He easily could have been like sidetracked by the follow drawing rules, but instead he's been the most efficient version he's ever been. So, yeah, I agree. I think he should be in the back card.

I do want to mention we're not going to talk about East Reserves right now, but to minus a bonus, really good case. I'll just say that. Really? Yeah, I mean, the numbers are pretty great. He's shooting 58% for the floor. I think he's like the raw numbers aren't as good as they have been in years past, but like.

He's not. He don't got a great case on my All-Star team. The Pacers are garbage. So it's also tough. I mean, that is probably something we should also talk about here. The Hawks are eight games back of the Bulls, seven and a half games back of the net. So, you know, not really contributing to winning. So I could see where you'd want to go with a Levine or Hardin.

But I think we all agree. Trey Young, let's go to the West here. Two primary spots of disagreement. We all have Steph in the back court, Nicola Yoachich and LeBron James in the front court. Let's start in the back court where Rob, once again, is a fucking sap. Just going for the emotional favorite here. Waz and I have John Morant. You have Chris Paul.

Would you like to defend yourself? I knew Rob was going to do that, by the way. I would just say that I think I brought up Chris Paul's MVP candidacy earlier in the year. And people were like, oh, he doesn't score or he doesn't have enough assists or points or whatever. Here we are. I don't think it's poo-pooing as MVP candidacy so much as you have to find room for Janice and Joel and KD and LeBron and Yoke. There's just a lot of guys this year. But let me flip the question.

Do either of you think John Morant is a better basketball player right now than Chris Paul? That's such a loaded question. Seems pretty simple to me. I mean, I guess the question is he contribute to winning more than Chris Paul. That would be the purpose of the game. I think I'd rather John Moran in a playoff series. I'll say that. You'd rather have John Morant in a playoffs.

I'd rather have John Moran a playoff series. Yeah, as far as like, I beat the dude in front of you, which they force you to do in the playoffs. I'd probably rather have John Moran. Let me ask, let me throw a question back to you. Do you think that Chris Paul would be as, no, I was going to say as good on the Grizzlies, but what about on just like a bare minimum team? Let's say the magic.

Do you think Chris Paul would be better, John Moran? Oh, no. No, Jaws absolutely better at taking a bad team into mediocrity, at taking an underwhelming team into being pretty good. And in this case, taking a pretty balanced in Deep Grizzlies team to being one of the, the better teams in the Western Conference. You don't think the Sons would be better with John Morant to Chris Paul?

No, no, I do not. That's interesting. I think the reason that ecosystem works is because of Chris Paul. Every hallmark of how the Suns play is a hallmark of a Chris Paul team. I don't think that's by accident. And when you're talking about juggling all of these guys needing the ball, keeping Aiton invested, making sure Booker is getting into his spots without overstretching, all that stuff is Chris Paul stuff to me.

I think he's been awesome this season. Yes. And I get the John Morant case. I don't want to discount it too much. But there is a thing going on with him too, where I don't want to count the fact that the Grizzlies won without him against him. But in the games that he has played,

which are the only games I really care about, the games that he has played, the Grizzlies have won at a slightly lower clip than the Maz with Luca Donchich, for example. Or the jazz with Donovan Mitchell, even after their massive lands slide. I don't know. I think the Grizzlies are a pretty good team.

I think part of the reason for that is they're super deep. And Jaws driving a lot of that and making the pieces work and making everything fit in and protecting guys from overstretching their particular roles. I just think Chris Paul's better at so much of that stuff. And I think the fact that he doesn't put up a lot of points per game makes it easy to discount what he's giving up and what he's doing in terms of managing that team at a higher level. I put a lot of value in that. I'm going to get really technical here.

John Moran's dropping 40, dunking on fools' heads. He's been a supernova. Like, this is breakout. Like, to me, this is when he becomes, he basically monopolizes this all-star spot this season in the way that we've seen guys in the past through the same thing, whether it be the steffs, the Russes, the Chris Pauls, like, you know, keeping guys like Tony Parker and Mike Connolly out of that starting guard position, right? Like, I think John Morant has done that.

this year, and that's why I'm putting him in there. Obviously, you know, I think the cool thing about Chris Paul, too, is like he's doing this, like, fourth quarter takeover stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, during the course of the game, he's like, yeah, yeah, do your continuity. Fourth quarter comes, give me the fucking ball. I'm making sure we get a great shot every single possession because of what I'm doing on the ball. So it's been dope to watch him just do it again this season.

I just think John Moran's been special, man. And, you know, eye test, just watching him. He just looks different. He just looks like guys can't do a single thing with him when he's on his game. And so, I mean, for me, it's John Morant. Yeah. The best argument for Chris Paul is an argument you could easily turn against him where he professionalizes an already decent situation.

But does he need those other players at this point of his career in order to bring a team like the Sun's at the top of the West, whereas is John Morant just like, is he a type of guy you build around from day one and you build pieces? to compliment him. I think all of that's true. But I think the Sons are 37 and 9, and their team is good, but it's not like this is a team

with three, four superstars on it. I think ultimately where the distinction happens is I think Devin Booker is a good player, like an All-Star, probably going to be a borderline wild card type edition for this season. If you think he's better than that, then you probably don't think Chris Paul

is as good as I do. I think Chris Paul is what's elevating that whole situation. I think he's what's carrying it. But regardless of where you come down, both of these guys are locks. Both of these guys are absolute stone cold locks to make the All-Star team. Who starts is whatever. Both really deserving of it too. 100%.

I would say that Bridges and Aitin are also really good, although the Sun's record with Bionbo Manning the Aiton spot and Javelle McGee, I believe they're like 8-0 with the combined duo instead of Aiton and number one overall pick. Not good for the old contract negotiation talk, is it? We are going to put those bullet points on the Chris Paul propaganda fact sheet, though. So thank you, Justin. The other spot that we disagree on, Rob and I have Rudy Gober. Was you have Anthony Davis.

Yeah, what? I mean, to me, honestly, like, because All-Stars is a lot like is different for me than All-MBA, right? Which I think it is about the work you put in, the output, and all of that. For All-Star, I'm fine with past performance, and I don't think Rudy Gobert is better than AD. And if AD's alive and ready to play in the All-Star game, even though he's missed a lot of games, that's my starter. And no disrespect to Rudy. I know Utah fans going to come at me and all of that. I don't need the actual minutes logged for All-Star.

Be available. Be reasonably close to the All-MBA, All-Star, obviously, finals MVP. level type of guy that you've been in your career and you're my starter. Sorry, Rudy. Yeah, you're done. Sorry. I want to ask you about that all-NBA, all-star distinction because a lot of voters feel this way. Why are they different?

Because to me, it's the same thing. You're picking the players who have been the best this season at different stages. I don't know why you would vote on different criteria for those two things. Because the All-Star game is so fluk-like the circumstances is so fluky. It's like 40-something games into the season, so many fluky things could have happened, right, in that short of span. Because it's such a way smaller sample size,

I'm like, look, I'm fine with past performance. I'm fine with an understanding. Like, no, AD's still a freaking All-Star. Whether he put the numbers in to begin the season or not, he's an All-Star to me. And he's a starter at that. He's that level of player to me. All-MBA, like, we got the whole season.

You know, and we can go off of that. That's fine, because that's a full body of the season. That's a full sample of the season rather than, you know, we're trying to pick between somebody who played 25 games, somebody who played 32. It's like, at a certain point, I got to just start going with my instinct. And instinctually, I think Rudy is not as good a player as Anthony Davis is. I think it's more of a slight difference from me,

and it's driven by the fact that we have to split this up by conferences. And the fact that there are so many more spots. And so you're almost like trying to maneuver things in order to get deserving players on at the bottom of the list instead of just like really reach in order to like get into the Dejante Murray Andrew Wiggins sort of category. Just purely because you need to fit guys into spots. Yeah.

Oh, I actually have Dejante Murray in right now, but we'll talk about that next week. I think he's got a pretty credible case this season. DeJante Murray does. Yeah, but it's, I don't know. There's just so many spots. I think the West this year is messed up by like injuries, COVID. Like, it's obvious who the best players are, but they, they haven't put it on tape.

Well, even just in the front court, just to fill out your total ballot, starters and reserves, you're pretty much going to have to pick somebody who's played less than a thousand minutes to this point. Less than 900. It's either going to be AD or Paul George or I think if you want to take a look at DeAndre Aiton, I was looking at him, looking at Chris Stap's Porzengis. I think all those guys have cases. None of them have played a ton. Yeah, ADs played 28 games at this point.

That's why I don't even have him on my entire ballot at this point. One other AD thing, let me mention. I looked at all the all-in-one catch-all value metrics for this season, sort of all the valid front court candidates. I could think of. Would you like to guess how many of those metrics AD fell in the bottom three in? It was all of them. Every single one relative to that that group of play.

You know, we're talking Yokic, Gobert, Carl Towns, LeBron, all the guys you would expect. He's just not playing at the level of any of those guys. And not even them, but the poor Zingas and the Aitans, he's not producing so far this season at that level. But as well, as I was saying, if you're taking past performance into account, 80's great. Great player. I mean, like, it's not like he's 38, you know what I'm saying? Like, he's still in his physical prime, right? Like, so to me, he's still that guy is what I'm saying.

You know, it's not like, you know, John Wall, right? Saying, like, no, all past performance, John Wall is still good. Like, nah. Like, AD is still obviously, physically still there if he hasn't put it on paper this year. And the Lakers are better defensively. with him on the court, even though it is, you know, their top 10 level, not necessarily top one or top two. And like offensively, if you want to compare him directly to Go Bear, Davis gives you more offensively, obviously, than Go Bear. So I could see it, but I actually didn't

have them even in my reserves because of the games played. But we'll get to that next week, my friends. We'll save that debate for another time. That is it for us this week, though. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on productions. We'll be back at the same time, same place.