The Ringer NBA Show - Jaylen Brown Cashes In, Plus an Offseason Mailbag | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 27, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos start by reacting to the news of Jaylen Brown re-signing with the Boston Celtics for the richest deal in NBA history (1:55). Then, they open up the mailbag and answer questions about James Harden, the Cleveland Cavaliers, free agents still available, and much more (22:28). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Right now on the Ringer game on feet and all throughout the entire month of August, the East Coast bias boys are getting you ready to bet the NFL this season. We're going through each and every single division and revealing our favorite futures, predicting division winners, and even giving you some award winners. Do we think the Kansas City Chiefs will repeat or will they be the throne? Tune in now to find out on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. The group chat, I am Justin Barrier and joining me. away from chasing that Saudi money is Rob Mahoney. Big Waz. What's up, boys? I'm happy to announce

this podcast is not sponsored by any kind of sovereign wealth fund. Unfortunately. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know if Waz is excited about that. Waz can't be bought. I can guarantee it. One way or another, that number goes up high enough. We're having a conversation. Listen, man, I will never say that I can't be bought, but it won't be cheap. I'll say that. All right. Well, our friend Jalen Brown did not get that Saudi money, but he did get a lot of money. We'll talk about that. We're going to get into some mailbag action later on. Thank you to everyone for sending your questions over the past few days. But we should probably start there with Brown. $304 million over five years. It is a supermax extension. It is the richest contract in NBA history. Lazz, why don't we start with you here? It's a lot of money. for a guy who ostensibly is a second option. And I think if you're a pessimist on Brown, you might even say even lower than that.

Do you think the Celtics, is this a good deal for the Celtics? Are you more cynical or you think this is something that had to get done for them if they wanted to keep competing? I don't think it's good, bad, or any of that. I think this is what's necessary. You've put together a team

that makes it to the conference finals or the finals every single season. and it's built around two young wings. And that cost is the most premium position in the league. The guy made third team All-NBA. In the NBA finals that you guys went to, he was your best player with a bullet in the finals that you lost in six games. Like, this is just obvious.

Like, I've been reading and seeing and listening to some of the hand-wringing around the deal where I'm just like, did we have these special podcasts when Carl's, Carl Towns got the same deal to lead a team to what? Trade for a guy who plays his position that makes just as much money as him? I mean, like, I don't see how Jalen Brown's deal is any worse. It's way better than Carl Towns, and nobody sort of batted an eyelid. And the bottom line is, like, this is how much it costs to keep a contender together.

What I would direct people to, and again, the Celtics have had a lot less than the team that I'm about to mention. But it reminds me of the Clay Thompson deal. When he got $200 million off of an ACL, or excuse me, off of a torn Achilles, and it's just like, look, he's the second best player on a team that won a championship, you know, won 67, 63 games. Like, that's what it costs to keep those kinds of teams together. And to me, the cost is more than justified and warranted.

And at no point in this deal, will people look at Jalen Brown as like, no, you can't pay to bring in Jalen Brown to do what he does on that money? It's absurd. Like, this is just the money. I get the sticker shock. I understand the sticker shock is real, especially for fans and how fast these salaries are going up. I just wish we could post the earnings of the Celtics owner this year or, you know, any other owner within the NBA. and we could just post how much they make every single year from the team for what they do. And I think we'd be having a much different conversation about this.

Yeah, this is what you should be spending money on if you're a winning franchise. If you're a franchise that's trying to take itself seriously. And I think we all have some questions and some concerns about the Celtics just as a team to varying degrees. But I imagine we can all agree here that this is a team that as constructed could win the championship, right? Easily. Then what are we talking about? Like, this is what you pay, as was said, to keep a team like that together. Yeah, I think the difference between Towns and Brown is Brown has slowly become the symbol for or the tension point for the Boston Celtics.

If you think that they are being held back and could be better, like, you would say like, oh, well, Brown is the source spot. That's where you need to improve. Your second best player has to be on a certain level, and he wasn't that specifically last postseason. Whereas with Towns, there's no actual conflict there. It's actually a product of the Celtic success and prominence because we need someone to blame, and it tends to be brown. Let me ask you something, though. Let me ask you something.

Could the Timberwolves not win 38 games without Carl Anthony Towns? Is that something they could achieve without Carl Towns? I think they could, but yet they paid them $60 million a year for the right to still be there. Like, to me, the town's deal is 100% worse. Even the Brad Beal deal where it's like when you're healthy and you're cooking, you're a guy who leads our team to the green pastures of 41 wins. And that allegedly is something that people should want to pay for.

Like, this Jalen Brown, it's just obvious that this guy should be making this. I don't even see the conflict. And the idea that he's detention point. not the savior, the golden child, everybody's favorite, Jason Tatum and his performances in playoffs, I find that to be laughable. You know, I think they both could stand to be much better in their playing postseason. And the idea that Brown has sort of been holding them back and everybody else has just been firing on all cylinders in the biggest games at moments. I find that to be kind of a bit ridiculous, no disrespect. Yeah, I do think, I want to make the distinction there.

if anyone is necessarily saying that Brown himself doesn't deserve that, especially on this podcast, if only because a contract is what you can negotiate, basically. It's market price. It isn't really like an example of like your quality as a player. It's almost like when we talk about Vegas odds as if it's like a direct reflection of a team's win-loss projection. It's actually what people are willing to bet on. So it's a little warped in that. I think the question is like, could you do the Celtics need a better number two, first and foremost, or could they approximate what Brown has given to them at a lower cost? I don't necessarily agree. I'm more in line with Wazes, but that I think is at least a credible debate. Do they need a better number two?

I think the answer is no. Could they use one? I mean, sure, like if that option is available, depending on the kind of player. But honestly, if anything, we focused, like, you know, the Tatum Brown thing has been going around for so long now about like, do these guys compliment each other enough? Are they a good enough fit together? And we wrung our hands so much about them before they got to the finals. And the fact that we're like still kind of having that debate in this conversation now, I don't really get like they are too consistently successful. They do play well enough in concert that I think they've earned the right to have like a little bit of room for error here, a little bit of leeway here. Like you get to the conference finals over and over. You get that luxury. You get a

little more time. These guys are still young, are still successful, are still wildly productive together. I just don't see any real problem here other than the sticker shock, as you're saying, Justin, of people thinking of who Jalen Brown is in their heads, and specifically the last time we saw him and how rough he looked, juxtaposed with the idea that he's going to be paid like damn near $70 million in the last year of this extension. Yes, that is a weird thing to come to terms with, but it's really not going to be that weird in 2029, to be honest with you. Like, I think where Jalen Brown is now and what the Celtics need now, this makes all the sense in the world.

They had to do this. Okay, but here's my problem with the sort of counterpoint that Justin is just, he's just presenting the counterpoint. Right. Like, you know, what critics might say of the deal. Let's just talk about real actual players who are non-premium wings who make significantly less than $50-something million of the year. Let's just go Wiggins.

Would you make that deal? Are the Celtics just as good with Andrew Wiggins? No. On a $25 to $30 million deal? Hell no. They're not. I disagree. I don't think it would be a huge difference.

So you think Andrew Wiggins is capable of being the second most important one-on-one creator, initiator of offense on a team that goes to the finals that isn't. manned by one of the 15, 10 best players in the history of life? I think you could argue that the Celtics aren't optimized by having Jalen in that role. I think if you had a number three, I see Wiggins is actually a bad example, if only because he makes so much money. But if Wiggins was making like the mid-level and you got Wiggins's production, I think you could have a very good team. But see, this is this is the point. Andrew Wiggins is his quality at his position as such

you can't get players like Andrew Wiggins at the mid-level. We call McHale, let's take another guy. That's a different conversation then. But I'm just saying we call McHale Bridges a bargain at his price. Do you think he comes in here and replaces Jalen Brown and they're better? He's a bargain at 25. So that means the mid-level. Yeah, I think the Celtics would be about as good with McHill-Bridge.

Holy disagree. So what is the difference between what Bridges gives versus Brown? I guess I'm like, is it just like the dribble, like the creation? Is it the- Yes. If defenses keyed in on, on McHale Bridges and we're like, yo, like our game plan is predicated on making sure this guy doesn't beat us, it's not going to happen. He had a nice run at the end of the season.

I'm a McHale Bridges fan. Let's not get it twisted. But he's not an all-MBA kind of. wing. He's just not. I think you're discounting how much the Celtics collective is attributable for their success. Like Tatum's a star and Brown is very good. But I also think like having White, having like Horford, all these other guys in the mix is part of their advantage is that they're so deep and so versatile and have so many different two-way players. So like it is in some instances like a contextual thing that diminishes Brown's value versus like if he was on Portland for

instance, like maybe he would have an opportunity to be a different type of player and those skill sets that he brings wouldn't be as duplicative as they tend to be on the Celtics. But what I'm saying is that McHale Bridges is considered way undervalued at 25 mil per. So that means people think his value is about $35 to $40 million a year. So if he was getting his true value on the Celtics, that's what I'm saying. Like this idea that you could come in and get some bargain basement thing. Listen, like, even at the bargain, there is no bargain basement wing number two. That, like, that doesn't exist.

A six-foot-eight guy. Cam Johnson, Cam Johnson is making $25 million now. Well, I think we're having two separate conversations now. Are we saying that the Celtics could replicate Jalen Brown's value with another player? I'm saying, yes. But you're also saying those players tend to get paid a lot, which I agree with. Yeah, like that is market price for those players. And so, like, I don't think you could argue with the contract itself.

I think if you were to have issues with it, if I were to have issues with it, I do think it is because of the long-term problems it creates. And part of that is also because of the Celtics books, which we can get into. I think you're underselling some of when you make the argument that guys like Jalen benefit from the aggregate of what the Celtics are, right? All these supporting guys you laid out. The kinds of players you pay in the NBA, the real stars, are the guys who can benefit from good supporting casts, who know how to play

with the Al Horfords, who know how to play with the Derek whites, who augment what they do and in turn benefit from them. Like, what you're describing when you lay that out to me is a star.

Like, that is a star guy. If you can play alongside other good players and put up 27 a game on your 50% shooting, that's a pretty damn good resume. Like, that's a pretty compelling case

for him to be this kind of guy. Yeah, it's a complicated discussion. I mean, part of it I do think is because of the overlap between Tatum and Brown. I'm not one person who thinks this is Simmons and Embed part two, right? But I do think there are certain elements there where it takes more to fit them together. Like I was a person who was like, we're at the point where they need something else in order to clean up the mess. They keep finding themselves. And I thought that would be a bulletproof ball handler.

Those are actually very tough to find. I mean, it's basically Chris Paul, Mike Connolly. They don't really make like just rock solid pass first point guards. anymore. And so that proved difficult and they happen to go to Porzingis, which like, at the very least it's an interesting chemistry experiment, but that does bring into the financial element where like now you're, you have Porzingis on an extension. You have Brown on his extension. Tatum is due as Supermax likely being signed next year would kick in the following year. And so you have a lot invested in this core. And I just don't see long term how they could all fit together.

Now Porzingis could easily be the one that they get rid of instead of Brown. But they are kind of forcing themselves to make the most of this window next one or two years. I wonder if that's actually the worst case scenario for a team like the Celtics, who as we saw this past postseason, like not the best under pressure. And so they are almost pressurizing the situation more purely by signing Brown to this deal. Where I would push back against this way of thinking is, did you watch the bucks in the playoffs last year? I mean, like, their competition.

is not exactly sterling here. Not in my opinion. Even the Sixers who took these guys to the freaking brink, I don't think they've gotten better. I'm not, I don't think their position long term is better than the Celtics.

There's a team that we're going to talk about with some young guys who, you know, people think very highly of. Do we think they're marching up the Eastern Conference and, you know, the Celtics should be quaking in their boots? I don't see a team. Big Guy Jones season.

Magic in your case. I don't see a team that the Celtics should look at and be like, man, long term, why would we lock into this? Because these other teams are just going to blow us out the water. I'm not seeing it. I think this Buc thing, sure, maybe, maybe if and when the Dane deal finally goes through. I think this Bucks thing is pretty much over after this year. I really do. I don't think that thing is a long-term, you know, fighting machine.

I think how you know that, again, somebody comparable to Jalen Brown, Chris Middleton, how you know he's not it. He not only did he, you know, opt out of the deal, he signed for less annual money. It's an acknowledgement. I'm getting worse at Jalen Brown's position. Like, who are these other teams that the Celtics should look and be like, no, our core isn't secure enough? We maybe shouldn't be thinking this way.

To me, it's just obvious that what they've built is good enough to beat anybody when they actually, you know, have their heads out of their asses. Yeah, I think part of why... Which is rare, Isaiah. I think part of why I'm not so pessimistic about the idea of the Celtics being pressurized in that way is just for that reason, right? Like, they are in a unique position to kind of make every other Eastern Conference team prove it, right? they have shown how far they can get in the playoffs. You can look at the Sixers. You can look at the heat, even given their circumstances,

with the potential dame trade on the horizon. You can look at the Cavs. You can look at the Knicks. You could look at any team with the Bucks. All those teams have a lot to prove, have a lot to show. And you can put yourself in a pretty good default position by having Jalen Brown on your team. And by rolling back the same group that we know can be successful,

that we know can be pretty consistent. But yeah, it's going to have some spotty moments in the playoffs. but all of these teams are going to have spotty moments in the playoffs. And of all the teams on the board, Boston still feels like the safest bet. And that's not the kind of thing you just like bail on over, you know, trying to like reinvent the wheel, basically. Yeah, no, I think we all are in agreement that the Celtics are a title contender for next season.

I think there is an open question, though, whether what happened this offseason galvanizes them and makes them better or makes it more complicated. I guess there's a very real timeline where it makes them better, but it also makes things more complicated because you lose smart who has been the emotional totem for that team good or bad for a while. And also like you've injected a lot of injury concerns with poor Zingis. And it's like, you're kind of hoping like it's almost like a coin flip where like, oh, if Horford's hurt, then Robert Williams is going to be healthy or Christops is going to be healthy. There's a very dark timeline where all three of them are out. And then you factor in Malcolm Brogden, who they

couldn't trade this offseason because of his injury concerns. And so like I think they're at a late stage contender sort of issue where they're still a. very good team who could easily win the NBA title, but a lot of the things on the margins are getting way more difficult than they were a few years ago. I guess this is what happens when team age and certain things start to happen there. And so I would view them in the East as just as much of a contender as the Bucks, maybe not the Sixers until we figure that out, definitely the heat where if they get damed. So like, I think they're in the mix. I don't think they've separated themselves from those other teams. I'm not even saying that they're the

favorite, just that they're the safest bet of all those teams, given that they don't have, like, they don't have the James Harden thing looming over them. They don't have the question of like if they're even going to get Dame. They are a contender. They do have all those injury concerns, as you said, and they, they worry me quite a lot. But they're still in a pretty good position to adapt, at least to one or two injuries if they do happen. Yeah, again, I just, and I said it after the season, like decided that the Celtics should blow, quote, quote, blow things up or move on or whatever. you just have to believe they're capable of playing better than they did against the heat.

You just have to think that this is possible. Because there were just moments where these guys were so freaking embarrassing and so clearly playing below their obvious talent level. And so I don't know, man. To me, this is not the same as running back the Al Horford Hawks. Right? Like, this is not the same as the Gilbert Arenas wizards or, you know, some of the teams that we saw in the past. Hell, man, this is bigger than grit and grind, you know, a team that I always point to that never really did anything major per se.

But they were there every year. And I thought it was smart that they kept their core together for as long as they can. The Celtics are more accomplished group than that. And their talent upside is higher than that. So to me it seems obvious that they should be making this move. I think they're as well positioned. Their next five years are as bright as anybody in the Eastern Conference. Anybody.

I put them against any single entity in the Eastern Conference. Like if you want to say in the next five years, let's tally a playoff in regular season wins combined. Who you got? Who would you bet to beat Boston in that race? Nobody. Have you been to Disney World lately? there's a big team down there.

There we go. No, I think Boston's next two to three years are probably better than probably most teams in the NBA. I think it gets very complicated once Tatum's Supermax eventually kicks in. I don't think there's a way that both Brown and Tatum exist together on the same team beyond that. And if they do, it requires all sort of long division

and math that I can't comprehend about their books. Yeah, and maybe they aren't, and that's okay. that's the benefit of having two stars, not only who are this good, but who are this young. They have plenty of time to re-contextualize the whole team around those two, or again, to trade one of them down the line. But these next two or three years, I think they have put themselves in a position to be really successful. They owe themselves the chance to try to see this thing through with this core, more or less intact. I know we've already seen Marcus Smart go, and I'm sure we'll see some other pieces kind of jettisoned off

if they continue to hit walls along the way. But they're close enough. And if you're close enough in the NBA, you've got to take these kinds of swings. And sometimes they're going to be very, very expensive to do. Yeah, I think we'll look back on this offseason and say that this is where the Celtics made their move. I feel like the past two years, they had all of these options, right? They had young players coming to the four.

They bring in Malcolm Brogan. They're throwing around picks like they haven't before under Brad Stevens. This offseason, they kind of calcified who they will be for probably the next two to three years. and that's a very good team. And I probably would have done the same. The Porzingis deal was a little interesting. I'm curious to see how that works. I'm generally an optimist about that, but I'm not 100% sure.

But they've made their bed at this point. And we'll see what happens. All right, unless you guys have anything else about Andrew Wiggins or McKill Bridges, should we turn to the mailbag here? Let's do it. All right, mailbag. Thank you, everyone, for sending in your questions. I think it's only appropriate that we start with,

number one super fan of group chat who is uh the betsy cast money the the only good fan on on twitter we we appreciate your uh your your feedback always always very uh constructive and opinionated in the right way i'll say that that feels backhanded in some way what do you i don't know maybe it's just it's damning with faint praise calling somebody the best fan on twitter i mean come on i feel like maybe i just read things into various tone sometimes but it it seemed backhanded You wouldn't be the only one. No, I'm a big fan of Betsy. We appreciate you.

Is that better? That's better. Yes, that's fantastic. Sing-songy. I appreciate you, Betsy. You wouldn't be the only one is for lies. I overcorrected. All right.

What's the best case scenario ending to the hardened standoff for Philly, in parentheses, trade him, team-friendly extension, something else? If their plan is actually to create cap space next summer, like Morrie claims, who's the ideal target to make a gap year, in air quotes, actually worthwhile. Rob, what do you think about the first part of that question? What's the best case scenario for the Hardin standoff if we can call it that? Well, I think both parts of this question are pretty related because the best case scenario is they trade harden for a no development or assembly required supporting star who can play with Joel,

who's ready to go, who fits with the rest of the team, preferably one who can handle the ball in some capacity. That's the best case scenario. You can theoretically go the cap space route and make a deal for like a young player who might not eat into the cap space too much so you can kind of preserve that option. But I think that's really tempting fate given where we are right now. I mean, Mori said that the Sixers would be in a position to have, you know, a top player on the roster and add another one in free agency. And that feels like a very presumptive thing to say when Joelle Embed is openly daydreaming about the fact of winning a title, whether it's to borrow his framing in Philadelphia or literally anywhere else.

I remember saying this at the time, and I still feel this way, when Hardin ended up with the Sixers, everybody's hubris was rewarded, i.e., they all got lucky. Nobody wanted Ben Simmons because he clearly isn't good. I was saying that at the time. I think the rest of the world is caught up with this idea that he's just not an NBA player anymore. Hardin had nowhere to go. Like, Brooklyn was just like, bro, this is crazy. And Mori's whole hardball, like, oh, I can just hold on to this guy forever. And blah, blah, blah, like, yes, you held on to him for James Hardin, who's been trashed in

the playoffs two years in a row. Congratulations. Everybody lost. Okay. Trash with an asterisk. James Harden had some good games. As previously discussed, continue. He had two good games in this year's playoffs.

But in the most important moments, you know, when his do-a-die situation, he turned into a pumpkin again. Tough, yeah. You know, the tough talk that Morrie's doing on local radio about, oh, we wouldn't move this guy unless we got another star in return. You know, even pretending that everybody else didn't, you know, didn't have cable last year. and couldn't watch Harden in the playoffs

and don't know what this guy actually brings to a team. He's not that level of player anymore. The idea that people would want to give up real stuff for a guy who, one, you know, this isn't 2018 where he could put a team on his back and could do that. So we know he's diminished physically and his play has just suffered because of it.

And two, he's been a head case at three consecutive stops. You put those two things together. You have no leverage in a James'clock. Harden deal, right? And so that's why I know the best case scenario is that James Hardin ultimately comes back and tries to play for a new deal. That's it. He realizes that his do or die for his next and last big contract in the NBA and he's a good soldier, shows up the camp in shape, bust his ass all season, you know, finds it in his soul to not throw up all over himself in the playoffs next season and looks like a quality playoff type of player.

And he gets a deal that's worth $100 million, you know, for three years in the summer. And, and more he gets his cap space. And allegedly two new superstars come. And that's it. That's the ideal. Nothing else is happening is coming of this. It's not going to happen. He's coming back and he's going to have to earn a new deal.

I don't disagree with your critique of the Ben Simmons fiasco, whatever that was. They all got lucky. Well, I wonder if a similar blueprint would ultimately be the best case scenario yet again because if we're saying that Hardin needs to show up in play in order to ultimately get what he wants, either at the trade or before the trade deadline or maybe in the offseason just getting a deal with another team, can more convince him to do that and then just wait out until another disgruntal superstar a la James Hardin in Brooklyn comes free. Like, for instance, Paul George and Kauai Leonard, both have player options for next summer.

We'll see if they come to agreement on extensions before then, but it seems unlikely. Let's just say Kauai won't come on Paul George's podcast. George's upset, wants a trade. All of a sudden, boom bang. Now he is the guy going to the playoffs with him beat. I'm just saying, like, I don't know who it is. Also, that seems like a better bet. So the upgrade from Hardin is two guys who haven't finished the last three seasons.

I mean, maybe. Okay. Yeah, Paul George has been decent in the playoffs when he's available. I'll say that. But there is something to this in the sense that because Hardin is going to be on an expiring deal if he stays, it does position the Sixers to trade for guys who are also in the last year of their deals or also have player options who could be flight risks, right? Because you're just weighing one risk against the other.

It's not like they have to find a long-term option if the ultimate result of either path is having cap space on the other side of it. So how this potential team solves their dysfunction is by bringing in James Hardin? Okay. Word. You're talking about the Clippers? Whoever the team is. Whoever the team that has a dysfunctional situation, disgruntled superstar, whatever, they say, yeah, yeah, yeah, Hardin's going to solve it.

I think teams tend to get more desperate in the middle of the season, but I don't disagree with you. But wouldn't they just be like, can I get some draft picks? Can I get some young guys? Can I get some upside? Can I get something real? Something that isn't washed up James Hardin? I mean, with your new arena on the way, with your big hopes and dreams for the Clippers,

like there's a lot wrapped up in this. And I think people like us can say, you just punt on the sunk cost of them kind of flailing about to this point. But they've invested a lot in that core in trying to make it work. I think teams like, whether it's the Clippers or some other desperate team come January, February,

someone might, talk themselves into James Harden. They've done teams, NBA teams have done crazier things than that. Yeah. We'll get to this a little later, but they're very... Well, I guess people did talk themselves into Ben Simmons, so... There you go. I think there are very few teams

that are expecting to be bad next season. And so I wonder if that traffic jam ultimately forced that. I mean, God, the Warriors just traded for Chris Paul, who are sensibly going to bring him off the bench. Like, anything can happen at this point. But

the cap space scenario, I think, is an interesting part of that. Does anybody believe that Daryl is actually thinking two max slots next year, we're going to wait this out and we're just going to land? I don't even know whom at this point because the 2024 class isn't particularly appealing. And that's not really how stars get around these days anyway. Yeah, I think it would be using the space for some kind of trade facilitation probably, right? I don't think he's envisioning Pascal Seacum as the ultimate Embed counterpoint. But yeah, you're right. The fact that there

aren't good free agent options available, there's great, great, complimentary ones unless you want to think about Paul George or Kauai. I don't know. They are an extremely difficult spot right now the Sixers are. I don't know how they get out of it. I don't know how they overcome, just even just

the things that have already been plaguing them, much less this new group of problems, whether it's from Harden or Embedd or not from both. They're in a really rough spot. I don't believe anything Darry says in public. I just don't. And to his credit, he shouldn't be coming out and being transparent

about how he plans on making his team better. That's counterproductive. It would be counterproductive to do so. Again, but that being said and knowing Darry, it's ridiculous. Don't you guys remember when he traded for Westbrook and said all these beautiful things about him? These people are paid to lie to us. all the time.

Like, I don't believe anything this guy's sake. So if he's saying, oh, we're, you know, we're gearing up for two max slots. It's like, all right, I'm sure they're thinking about trying to get some other thing done to make the team better around Joelle. If Daryl is paid to lie to us, what are we paid for?

I don't think we want to go down that room. The truth, Rob. To uncover the truth, give the people the facts. We're journalists. True. Right. Did you guys see Embed's photos? from his wedding, by the way? No. I got to say, like, I do feel like the one great differentiator

between an acquaintance and an actual friend is a wedding invitation. And I feel like we learned a lot about who is in Beade's inner circle from those. Did not see our friend James Hardin. I'll say that. It was George Niyang. I think I saw De Anthony Melton at some point, Tobias Harris. I forgot who miles. I mean Ayedoka, I believe, was there. Interesting. Something to file away. I will say, I bet George Nying gets a lot of wedding invites. It just seems like a good hang.

You know, it seems like a guy a lot of people like. He might be the heir apparent to Dianjarde Jordan, honestly. Honestly, it's a good gig if you can get it. All right, this is semi-related our next question. I saw that, Ben, by the way. This is from two weeks with pay on Twitter. Ignoring Philly's state of flux right now. So I guess not including Philly, which contenders' clock is ticking the fast as if they don't make at least the NBA finals this year.

Wise, who do you think? If we're ignoring Philly and their turmoil, I would say it's the bucks. It's got to be the Bucks, right? I don't think Janus is like some flight risk to leave. however, if they have, if they flame out again and the only real success they've ever had was just this fluky nonsense slate that they faced in 2021, I think I think the the conception of this team is on the, like they got to try something different. Yeah, yeah.

If they don't get past the second round this year, they have to try something drastically different than what's going on right now. So to me, that's the bucks. And I'm going to be real with y'all, man. Like, I just, when the bucks and the playoffs, they just not my bag. Look, they got Adrian Griffin now.

Presumably he's going to go about his business a lot differently than Budenhouser did. And I think that would be a fantastic thing if they did, particularly in the playoffs. But if this thing doesn't work with this group of guys, again, man, they got to do something. But even listen to what you're saying, you're saying that the clock is ticking around everything but Janus, right? Like they could always just kind of reshuffle those pieces, try a different kind of

team. Our good friends, the Clippers, do not have that option. Right? I think they are by far the loudest, the fastest ticking team. Like their clock is deafening at this point. And it's because, it's for two reasons. One, they haven't accomplished basically anything. They don't even have in your words was the fluky championship to like rest their laurels on or have faith in. They have one trip to the conference finals in four years and no momentum whatsoever to speak of. The second reason is the clock is ticking on both sides

because the organization could throw its hands up and say we are just done doing the Paul George Kauai thing and Paul George and Kauai could opt out, decline their options, hit free agency and say like, you know what, we gave this a try, it's just not for us. And that fact alone that there's mutual, decision making on both sides means like something has to happen for us this thing is going to fall apart.

Rob, here's the thing. Here's the only way that I'll disagree with you and it's sort of a semantic thing. Stop calling the Clippers contenders. They're not. Get that out of here. They're done. Get them out. We did this dumb shit last year.

Oh, they're going to be so tough in the playoffs. Oh, the depth of this team. Oh, my God. They're so deep. Oh, Kauai's looking amazing since he came back. And Kauai is. but Paul George comes back to this thing. It's going to be crazy.

Oh, my God, the Clippers. This is not a real team, y'all. I like how you're mixing in multiple different voices now. It's not just the one whiny blogger. Different regions. Yeah. You can tell us. I've been hanging out with Normies recently because I've been watching a lot of Stephen A recently.

But no, the Clippers are a fake team. This is not a contender. This is a paper team. This team exists strictly on paper. their two best players are never there. Again, people need to remember this. Kauai Leonard, since he's been with the Clippers, has finished one playoff series.

At one playoff run, excuse me, when they flamed out against my nuggets. That's the only time. 2020 is the only time he's finished a playoff run. And in between that, in between today and 2020, when he flamed out, it's just been, can't play in the regular season. can't finish in the playoffs.

Paul George never plays. He's also not finished. I think at least two times he hasn't been able to finish in the playoffs. So, like, this team exists on paper. You look at the lineup. You know, you go on NBA.com and you look at rosters and you say, wow, that's a pretty interesting roster. Wow, I like the young guys.

I like Kenyon Martin's kid. Oh, my God. This is interesting. When you look at the roster on NBA.com in real life, This is not a contender. This is not a championship threat. This is a wounded falling apart team. I don't know why we're pretending that this year is some make a break.

They've been broken already. They're done. Crazy glue can't fix it. Nothing's going to fix it. Dr. James Andrews can't fix it. Cleo, the psyche couldn't fix it. They're done, guys. But otherwise, they're pretty good.

They got a lot going on. I think if you're a Clippers optimist, the case is that when Kauai and Paul George do play, 67 win percentage, which extrapolated over a full NBA season, last NBA season, they would have been third. That's the case for them. Problem, they've only played 40%. You said 57? 67. 67.

That's a beautiful winning percentage. That's very nice. quality winning percentage there. Yeah. Only played 40% of the Clippers games together, and you assume Quy maybe not healthy at the start of this season. Who knows, you won't tell us.

Or more accurately said, because this is what happens more often, 60% of the Clippers games, they don't have their two best players. Yep. LeBron and A. 5. Just for sake of comparison,

53% of the games together. Yeah. So that was Barry Bonds' record-breaking on-base percentage, y'all. When he got like 200 intentional walks. That's the clippers right there. So all Paul George needs is just like one of those like elbow shields that Bonds had and maybe he'll make it through a season.

So I also had the clippers and the bucks down for you. The bucks, I don't know if anyone's taking a look at their books these days. So Drew Holiday has a player option for not next season, but the season after that. So next summer, basically. And I don't know if you guys caught this at some point during the season. He said that he wants to retire after this contract. He's only 33 years old. He would be 34 going into that player option year.

This might end sooner than anybody realized because maybe Drew just like goes and does charity work for the rest of his life. That's like a, that's a realistic possibility. Look, if you can retire at 34, I respect it. Drew Holiday, do your thing. Respect it. But this might also be a play to get, you know, MBS involved, you know. this might be a way to get the Saudis. NPS?

Yeah. Could be. Maybe he was out of the game there. So the season after that, 2025, 26. The Bucks literally do not have a guaranteed contract on their books. Janus, Middleton, Portis, Conantin, all player options. Marjan Beauchamp, team option, classic. By the way, that Middleton play option, that's getting picked.

up. Probably is getting picked up. So they might have Middleton and Bobby Portis as their two pillars for that season. And then it's just non-guaranteed contracts. They don't even have a team in three years, essentially. And so at a certain point, like, yeah, I still think there is a possibility where they could do some damage to this season, but the darkest timeline creeps in very, very quickly. But that's two full seasons before all those options kick in, right? I mean, unless Drew goes on like a permanent vacation, yeah.

I guess, yeah. I hear your concern. I just think, like, for an immediate contender, that's too far out to be the fastest ticking clock. The Clippers could completely implode by, you know, January 1st. And the reason why the Clippers is the fastest, what's Kauai's timeline? You guys laugh when that even, that's not a thing. You don't know when he's coming back. You don't know why he had the surgery.

You don't know. You don't know how his rehab's going. You don't know. Like, it's a joke. It's a joke. Like, just think about that. Like, this guy is, like, one of the five best players, six best players in the NBA when he's right. We just have no idea when he's coming back to bring his team to the promised lane.

I'll say this. Someone who's just dinging the Clippers, it seems like the rest days we've had in between pods is really up your game. I'll say that. I'm just bringing it today. I'm just sick of Clippers talk. I'm just sick of them. I say this all the time, but like, my lord, just the, all the clippers. All the clippers.

How did they do it? Oh, how did they sneak? Okay. This voice is getting very Trumpy all of a sudden. I don't know what's happening. All right. Let's pivot to our next questions here. Number three, Reed Jones on Twitter.

Where would you like to see some of the last remaining big name free agents go? Now, big name might be stretching it. Yeah, pretty relative. But I just looked at the hoops height list of best available players. And these are the guys on there. You guys just call out the ones you want to address. Christian Wood, PJ Washington, Kelly Ubre, John Wall, and then a potpourri of the likes of Jalen, Noel, Terence Ross,

or Michael Green, T.J. Warren, et cetera, et cetera. Rob, do any of these guys? This is a question Taylor made for you. Any of these guys feel like you're intrigued by? I'm intrigued by all of them to varying degrees. Will Christian Wood be in the NBA next season is becoming an interesting little plot line? In the NBA?

I think that's tough. Are you sure he's going to be? I don't think so. When you consider his knuckleheadedness, it's not the talent. It's like who wants to bring that into their situation? Like, just think about the Western Conference with 14 out of the 15 teams think they're like a serious team this year. Which one of those teams would want to bring Christian Wood

into their positive outlook that they have on their season. The Lakers. I think that's the one. The issue I think for Christian Wood is most of the teams that need size are not teams that need Christian Woods particular brand of whatever it is he does.

You know, the Warriors, perfect example. They could really use someone Christian Wood size. They could really not use Christian Wood. The Lakers do need another big to help them get through the season, another kind of dynamic player who can complement what they do. And obviously, LeBron has a pretty long history of taking like knuckleheaded players under his wing and trying to rehabilitate their careers. To some success, we should note. I wouldn't bank on him like revitalizing Christian Woods standing in the league at this point,

but you could see the Lakers kind of talking themselves into it. He's the next Michael Beasley in Miami. Yeah, the problem with the Lakers, here we come. The problem with the Lakers is that they're betting on Jackson Hayes as their primary backup center. And if you want to like rest A Dmore and play him some at the four, then it's really just Jackson Hayes and whatever you're getting out of Jared Vanderbaud, who's more of a four still probably at this point. And so if they were more rock solid and had like five years ago Javelle McGee ready there, then you could take the risk on Christian Wood and hoping that LeBron could like bring him along. Unfortunately, they're kind of betting that Hayes could be that project and to bring on another

project only like doubles down on that. And so it's a little bit dicey there. But I do agree that like they're probably the most likely candidate. Those kinds of bets are why they're able to erect a trillion dollar casinos in Las Vegas still to this day. I would say the Hornets as well. Yeah. Like, you know, what the fuck are the Hornets? What are the Pistons doing?

You can always go home. You can go to the Pistons. So here's the thing about the Hornets is like their bigs were actually while young, pretty okay defensively over the back half of last season. So I could see Wood is like a counterpoint, right? Like if you want a little more. juice from your five or even playing some at the four with those guys. I could see it, but man, is Christian Wood not a Steve Clifford player. You know, just not a good match of

personality there. So if not the Lakers and, you know, if the Hornets can't get on board, then I think you're looking at desperate teams in a couple months if Christian Wood goes unsigned, right? Like if the bucks decide they need one more big and want some like Bobby Portis insurance, If the Raptors don't like what they're getting out of like the backup five spot, then maybe you can figure something out there. But it's not a great market for Christian Wood at this point. Yeah, bigs who don't play big, it's not, I don't know. I think we've kind of figured out that that shit is not as valuable as we thought.

Like, it's nice that you have range out to three and you even have some vertical spacing on your picking rolls. But like, he just doesn't play. There's nothing big about it. He sucks on rebounds. he can't rent protect. He's light in the shorts, so big guys push him around. Like, what does he have theoretically?

Now, PJ Washington, you know, if we could find a way to get him next to Luca, I think that would be cool. I would love to see what he could do in San Antonio with that young group over there. I just think there's a myriad. It seems obviously Golden State is so freaking cash trap, but I think he would be a great Golden State type of guy in the role that they've tried to put so many guys, right? Like they tried to put Jamichael Green and sort of like the Otto Porter type of role in Golden State. Like an elevated version of what Otto Porter gave to them

a few years ago or a younger version. I shouldn't say elevated because Otto Porter was damn freaking good for them. But yeah, those are the kind of teams that I think about for PJ Washington because I still think he's got potential that's been untapped. I think Christian Wood is the guy

he's always going to be from now until eternity. I think PJ Washington still has some things to give and discover about his game. Yeah, and if you are PJ Washington, you know, the cap, the money right now is scarce enough. You could imagine him taking a below market deal with a good team on a one-year basis. Does he do a Bruce Brown? Like, let's see if we can make a long run where I'm a critical part of a contending core, you know, on the low end of that spectrum, like, he could be a Phoenix Sun if he wanted to be, right? He could join that group and be among that kind of minimum core.

I think that's, he's probably looking for more than that, both in terms of money and minutes. But for me, I love him as like, you know, replacing Trey Liles in Sacramento as like a combo four or five for them. You know, in Miami, giving you everything Kevin Love gives you and then some, right? Yeah, they're going to win the championship. If him and game come. Well, there are a lot of those fits out there where it's like he could slot in to kind of replace something that a more one-sided player already does. Yeah. So Washington is a restricted free agent, which makes it tougher. The other tough part about this is that a lot of teams have already settled on their roster and their contracts.

And thus, you would probably have to sign and trade him. It's kind of unfair, man. Yeah, it is a bit of a mess for the player's side of thing. And so the likely scenario, he ends up back in Charlotte. But maybe it's on a short-term sort of deal. And then he gets back on the open market next year. But I agree. Those are the two guys that jump out to me as well.

unless Wads, do you want to do 10 minutes on Jalen Noel? If Jail and Noelle walked into my crib and smacked me in my face, I would recognize this game. I'm sorry. Get into Milwaukee. Milwaukee Buck, Jail and Noel. I like that. There you go. Number four, Cosmic Cornerstone asked, will the Cavs poor performance in the playoffs carry over into this season?

Is Evan Mobley still on the upswing? He's like 22 years old. Should the Cavs be worried about Donovan Mitchell asking out this year? And so Mitchell has a player option for the 2025-26 season. So he has functionally two seasons before that. Mowgli's rookie extension would kick in the season before that. What do you think about the Cavs? I'm fascinated by their position right now because they're both still really young

in their two youngest guys, studs, are. super young guys. However, you know, when you finish fourth in your conference, you're a serious team, right? And so they've got both tracks, if you will, going for themselves. I think the problem, and I want to give a shout out to my man Tim Bontemps for being the first person I heard say this, he's like, look, they should trade Donovan Mitchell. He ain't signing no extension in no damn Cleveland. And even if he did, guys, it would be at a massive overpay. And as bad as Jalen Brown, people make fun of his performance, even though he was injured in the playoffs last year. He wasn't as bad as Donovan Mitchell. Donovan Mitchell was terrible in the playoffs last year. As awesome as he was in this regular season, you know. And early on, there was even like MVP ballot type of talk for the play that he gave them.

In the playoffs, he stunk up the joint. So it's like even if he would resign with you guys, to me that would be for a reason, man. Like, that would be because he stunk up to join again in the playoffs this coming season. And he was like, look, if these guys are going to max me out for five guaranteed seasons, I'll take it, figure out a way to, you know, either make things terrible enough that they want to move me, but or just be the kind of player that they just don't see as necessary anymore. And they themselves want to move him, right? And so I think that's fascinating. And then, of course, the Evan Mobley part of all it is. I think

if Donovan Mitchell is going to be the kind of guy that he wasn't in the playoffs last year, they need somebody else who isn't the smallest player on the floor to be an effective offensive player, you know, to even if you're not going to be, you know, some one-on-one killer, damn, man, be a threat in the role game, be a threat in the pop game, be some kind of threat because I hear all of this talk about, oh, well, Mowgli needs to do more with the ball. He needs to be an elbow facilitator. That's not going to get it done in the playoffs, y'all. That doesn't make you a threat in the playoffs that you're a threat to pass at the freaking elbows. He needs to do more. Even if he's not going to be off the ball, on the ball, a big

threat, he needs to be some kind of pick and roll threat. There's no doubt that Mowgli has to become the kind of player whose presence is felt offensively on a much, much, much, much, much more consistent basis. That is the future of the team. We've seen some bright spots for games at a time, for quarters at a time. Nothing consistent, nothing sustained. Still clearly has a lot of work to do on his body to make that happen on a more consistent basis to be more of a factor inside consistently.

But you're right, especially when Mitchell is your primary driver, or if you want to say Mitchell and Garland is two kind of like pretty small guards. You do need Mowgli's size. You do need him to be more of an offensive factor. You need just like a more robust playmaking and creed. engine if you're going to survive some of these playoff matchups. And I'm probably a little more optimistic about the Mitchell situation than you are a wise. I mean, it sounds like you're in

maybe like the bottom 5% on Mitchell optimism. The way he played against the Knicks was was disheartening, bro. He was not good. It was terrible. The fact that if your best player can be trapped with that kind of ease and it takes you completely out of your offense, like you need other answers. And so the calves are going to have to figure that out. I'm a little more optimistic to see and encouraged to see what they do with that information, right? I think Mitchell has a lot to prove in terms of showing that he is not that kind of guy,

even going back to his Utah days, showing that he can be a more evolved, a different kind of player. Garland and Mowbly and Allen, all three of them, I think we have reason to think that they have not played their best playoff basketball yet. And that combination, like, that is not only going to lead to a pretty strong regular season, but I think could lead to a more successful playoff run. They just have to prove it. And they're going to have to prove it.

that's going to hang over them all year long until they can get back into the first round and we'll see kind of what they look like when they get hit in the mouth again. But man, that team, they really do have a lot to prove for what was a fourth ranked team in the East and what honestly, given the fact that they brought in a little more shooting,

they could have an amazing regular season and still have huge, huge questions. Yeah, and I think, sorry, Jess, just one more thing on the Mowgli front. I'm not somebody that's like, oh, tomorrow, he needs to come out and be Dirk or even You know, because he's gotten a cop a lot, Chris Bosch. I don't think so.

I think the guys that he plays with are dynamic enough in the pick and roll. If he can just do what Wiggins does where you can't put a little guy on him or he'll post him up, get filed or score. Like, do that. Be strong enough, have enough presence enough with the ball close to the basket, where you need to be filed when somebody who's not like size is guarding you down in, a big, big spot. to at least get to that level, you know, because in the playoffs, he had nothing. He had bubkus.

Sorry, I was watching Seinfeld. I think the big question is, what is the runway with Mitchell? Because I believe he's extension eligible sometime in the fall before the season. And so are you getting one season with him? In that case, a lot of the things that, well, if you get two, do you have to trade him during that second season in order to recoup some of the value that you gave up to the jazz in the first place. Quite a lot of value, we should add. And so those questions about Evan Mobley, can he put it together?

Now it's like, can you do it next season, like your third season and be an impact offensive player? I would be doubtful, even if he makes progress in that area. And two, it's like, what are we doing with the front court? It seems like that's a successful pairing defensively in the regular season. But as we saw, Jared Allen was probably more of a pumpkin, more bubkis than her friend Evan Mowgli was in the playoffs, possibly. And I do wonder if the future there is like, well, we can't play them together. Then we have to put Mowgli at center.

He probably needs like two to three years of development physically in order to be able to demand that. And then it's like, who do we put it on the wing to fill in that spot? Well, we have Max Struz. Do we have enough guys in addition to him to really put together the type of offensive unfl lineup in a small ball lineup? And so like there's a lot of things that are coming to the four, I think quicker than the Cavs would like, which is leading me to be on Waz's side of the thing where it's like,

this might get actually more dire, more quickly than we think. I think that's always the case. I think it's always the case if you're an up-and-coming team, especially a smaller market team. This stuff can get away from you very, very quickly if you're not careful. Well, it is, but they put themselves in this situation by trading for Mitchell. They inherited, they willingly inherited this problem. I think the Mitchell trade was justified, though.

I think it was a great idea to actually up the level of your capabilities and your expectations for your young guys who you believe are franchise cornerstones. I just think you got to have the stones to be like, you know what? We'll deal him next summer while he's on an expiring deal, you know, and believe that we'll be able to get something, that there will be teams on the market. And, man, I think they will, dude. I really do. I think Donovan Mitchell will still be covered.

I think his CAA connections will still matter. That's the question, though. Like, what, I think you're right. I think that is the big quick. What are they going to recruit by trading Mitchell again? Are the Knicks just going to be like, we'll give you like quickly in like a pick because we know he's going to come to them or is it going to be multiple picks that actually restocked the coffers?

Because you missed out like prime developmental years one with Mobley, maybe letting him play through mistakes more than he would on a worst team, right? but also the draft picks that you would need to come to four when he is already at like a certain level. You basically don't have the next guy coming up. Like, so, okay, so they traded Mitchell, right? Who else is Mobley playing with beyond Garland? It's really him and Garland and then what?

And are they going to be too good to even be so bad in order to get the type of premier players in there to be a number three or number four? See, but to me, to me. But like, this question answers itself. If this guy becomes the type of player that you need to be worried about, oh, who will we put next to him? Oh, my God, we got to panic. Then it's not going to be that hard to put quality guys next to him in order to win.

Is it free agency? Because guys don't typically go to Cleveland. And we're saying that they might not be bad enough in order to draft those guys. So how is it happening? Yeah. I mean, maybe the free agent won't be as good as Donovan Mitchell, but I bet you he's cheaper. too. You know what I mean?

Like, to me, that's the question. It's like, if we're not able to reach these heights with Donovan Mitchell and Mowbly being who he is, then maybe he's just a type of cat that you don't need to be pressed about impressing. Like, to me, that's

what it is. You know, and again, if you get quickly in a pick for Donovan Mitchell next summer, a pick from the Knicks, hell yeah, that's a good return. Are you shit? That's a great return. Something in the future from the Knicks.

You'll be able to get to recoup some stuff from that. I just think they should definitely, I don't think it should be one year Mitchell stunk up the joint in the biggest moment and move on, right? Like, be like, yo, this summer, yo, we're putting this guy on the block. I think they should try to see how their guys grow, how their guys not only grow as players, but grow into their roles within the team, man. like there's something to playing in those big-ass spots in MSG and gaining that level of experience that I think they can grow from, right?

And I'm excited to see what they do. But I think the Mitchell question is interesting because people in the nose seem to think there's just no way this guy's going to sign a contract to be a Cleveland Cavalier long term. You know, he's had these big city, you know, bright light aspirations for himself for so long. And I'm fascinated to see how this thing plays out because of that. I think you do want to play it out a little longer along those lines. If you need to trade him eventually, maybe that's a different conversation we can have.

But if the contingencies we're talking about for the calves from a team building standpoint are what happens if Mowbly and Garland don't pan out, the answer no matter what path you take is they're kind of fucked. And like that was going to be true before Donovan Mitchell. It's going to be true even if they have to trade Donovan Mitchell. Like if those two guys are not real deal, excellent high level playoff performers, their whole plan was going to be scrambled.

See, but I don't think that's the question. I think the question is what do they do in addition to those two guys. I think we would all agree that those seem like future All-Stars. Garland is already there. It's just like how does the next wave come in to support them? And so I actually applaud the Cavs for taking the unconventional route and trading for Mitchell. I thought it was a really interesting idea, especially because Mitchell supplemented what they already had in a way that go

bear and to a certain extent, DeJante Murray did not. But I think this is why you see small market teams typically take the conservative path because of things like this where they can't hold on to the superstar they traded from. And all of a sudden they have to not necessarily start from scratch, but start from the lower middle. But to me the question is, when is Mowgli going to be as good as Bamatabio is right now? We're not asking him to be Embed and Yokic and Janus.

And it's like be a real all-star player. When is he going to be that? Yeah. And that's also a thing that I would say, maybe they overestimated. Maybe they assumed. When is he going to be as good as Jaron Jackson is? Because these are the guys that people are alleging,

you know, people that I love that a podcast with on a week-to-week basis are alleging that he's on his way to be coming. When is he going to do that shit? You know, those guys have kind of shown it. I would be surprised if he's not at that level within two years. and it could be this year. Like maybe he has a guy

who just like all of a sudden it pops and it starts to make sense for him and he hits in a different way. I would be a little surprised if that happens this upcoming season just because I think we need to see a turn in disposition in addition to like a turn in skill level

and a turn in all these other things like broadening his range, all that stuff. But if in two years he is not that level of player we have hit a roadblock somewhere. Yeah. We need to do far fewer podcast. Jackson is an all NBA guy

and I know that Evan Mobley is like some mixture of Bill Russell and Kevin Garnett and all that on defense and we get it. He's just-generational. He's Jacked on top of Kevin Garnett, like on his shoulders. Right, exactly. However, Jaron Jackson is capable of dropping 30 in a playoff game. Yeah. Even without job. Yeah.

Even without a primary creator. Like, this. Hey, man. Where was Jaron Jackson two years into his career? Yeah. Like, I think he got hurt his 30. year. So it took him probably four years until we know for sure. And obviously I think the defense came along more quickly. But he was also, I think, a little bit bigger than

Mobley was coming into the leaks of the physical aspect. Definitely. He got some work to do, y'all. It's true. Maybe you can get into the gym with Woz. Yeah, I got a hard hat in my closet right now. I'll break into, get down in the mud, down in the dirt, y'all. All right, let's do two more. This is going to be a long episode. But it's Summer one. Just put it on when you're going to the beach or something. Number five, Ben Crabb, can you build a true championship contender around the Kyrie Luca backcourt or are there defensive limitations impossible to overcome? Who is the ideal center of the Mavs could reasonably acquire to pair with Grant Williams in

the front court within the next two off seasons? Rob, reporting from Texas. So I don't think it's just the defensive limitations, which is kind of the problem, right? It's like, these guys are not great defenders. I think Luca can be better when he wants to be. And honestly, Kyrie can too. When he digs in, he can be a perfectly adequate and sometimes pretty effective defender. But really, that stuff is a factor. And then there's like the larger team building questions of how do you even get better players

alongside them right now? There's the habits of Luca and Kyrie. There's the chemistry of like Luca's play style plus Kyrie's like come and go non-committal attitude to even being a professional basketball player. all of that stuff is complicated. And that's kind of what makes us, to me, a lot more difficult than, like, can these guys be part of a functional or high level or contending level defense? The ideal center would be bam at a bio.

He is not getable. The ideal center they could reasonably acquire is more like Jacob Pertil, Miles Turner, Rob Williams, maybe, if you want to take that kind of injury risk. but you're seeing the distinction between those kinds of players, right? You're getting into a very, very different category between what you want and what you might have to settle for. And that's what the Kyrie-Luca era is ultimately going to be, is they're going to have to settle for some things, and they're going to have to find ways to make it work if they want to contend with the rest of these,

pretty high-level teams in the West right now. Yeah, I think Rob's team-building point is the point. Kyrie's contract, like 40 million per or whatever it is, is actually right at the level that he played at last year when he got to the Mabbs. Just an insanely elite, you know, usage on offense, efficient scoring type of hub. However, he's overqualified for his position on the Mavs. And so just because he's paid for what he actually does,

he's not going to be doing it all the time on this team. You needed somebody who was cheaper who could, you know, be like, you know, slightly better than whatever Spencer Dinwiddy does. Or, you know, and it's been said a trillion times. You needed Jaila Brunson. It hurts to say, but it's true. You know, and so that you could allocate that extra 17 million. per towards guys that play defense.

You know what I mean? That are going to get after it. And the fact that you can't do that now, because you have, Kyrie, you're going to have to be genius level at bringing in the kind of guys who can, you know, strap up on defense. And let's face it,

you ain't got to be George Gervin on offense when you're playing with Luca. Like, Luca's going to make you into a competent offensive player because he's that great. But now it's just, going to be that much harder, you know, to find these guys out there. Like, y'all not, y'all don't have the heat track record of going out and getting gay

Vincent's and Max Truces and Caleb Martins and Josh Richardson's and, you know, all of these guys. You know, they've had a few gems that they did. For sure. They did. They did. Yeah. Also worth noting in this larger conversation, I think our perception of what defense is and what it means in the modern NBA can get a little skewed, offense wins championships.

If we're talking about what's going to make the Mads a contender, it's going to be scoring their asses off. I mean, a team with Nicola Yokic as its center just won the title. You don't have to have Bam out of bio necessarily. You don't have to have Joelle and Bede. I thought he was like Hakeem Ojoan at center now. Yeah. That's what I meant.

Shows to Michael the Pod peanut. I'll say this. I'm glad you brought that up. I think the Mabs can be really good next year, at least in the regular season. If Luke just shows up healthy and doesn't get injured and what is it, World Cup this summer. We're getting reports that he's in the best shape of his life.

That's what we're hearing. All we need to hear, man. Just like limit the beer to like one night a week and just I think. Shisha. How much of that have we doing per night? I think you have more experience on that end. So I'll leave that to you. I just think they have enough these days with this lineup.

A couple of intriguing young guys. I'm curious to see how Josh Green, for instance, like fits into that like number three like small forward role we'll see. I think Grant Williams empowered as being like somewhat of a lunatic like without having to deal with the restraints of whatever short leash of Joe Missoula is going to be really interesting. I could see them easily being like a top four seed in the West next season. If anything they, I feel like more than a big or more than a center. I just want them to get some longer wings.

That's kind of where my concern level is. And they have, you know, they just have. they're a very guard heavy roster right now. And I like a lot of those guards. You know, the Seth Curry edition, I thought was really smart. You know,

putting up the Danny Chow bad signal here, but Dante XM is back in the NBA. I'm very curious to see how he fits into all this mess. But I like a lot of the pieces that they have. I know they need a big. I know you would love to get a backbone defensive big at this stage. But, you know,

they could go in a couple different directions and still be pretty successful because Luca and Kyrie are so talented. Yeah. Well, speaking of backbone defensive bigs, this brings us to our friend Chet Holmgren for our last question. Number six, Kevin San Miguel, adding Chet plus this year's picks to last year's play in team.

How excited should I be about my Thunder this season specifically? Rob? I mean, pretty freaking excited, you know? I think the Thunder are going to be a top six team in the West this year. Good enough to spare themselves the play in. You know, but you've got Shay being one of the best players in the world. You've got Josh Giddy really growing over the course of the last two years. but last year in particular.

Jalen Williams is probably like the biggest wild card development candidate in the NBA right now in terms of a guy that could just take a leap at almost any time. Both. I'm not going to begrudge any Jalen Williams at the expense of the other. And, you know, like those guys are all backed up by a very smart, very hard playing team of mostly young players and Chet and some rookies and flyers who I really like.

Like I'm really bullish on what that combination of guys can do. this season. So I think that the thunder's ceiling is the Jordan Bulls. Okay. I think that, yeah, I think, no, I do think the world of them, maybe not that much, but I do think that the future is very proud there. I think if you were to play devil's advocate, I do wonder if yes, they have depth and all of these intriguing guys. I do wonder if a lot of the guys that they're relying on and now working into the mix are still young themselves. And I do wonder if at a certain point there's only so far you can go playing through the mistakes of like a case in Wallace who looked pretty good in summer league.

Chet Holmgren in functionally his first NBA season. And you have a lot of guys that you're still trying to play through mistakes. And so I'm tempered in my optimism trying very desperately too. I think they're going to be very good eventually. I wonder if next season if the improvement is more like five to six wins, not necessarily 10 to 15. 10 to 15 is a lot. But I would expect somewhere in the middle, like an eight, an eight,

an eight-win bump, which for a team that was already pretty good is incredibly meaningful. But you never know. Like maybe the, maybe the veteran know-how of your Davis Bertans, Justin. I think you're really, you know, you're really discounting the things that matter here. Ken Rich Williams, back in the mix. I mean, he's always around. He wants to be around. He loves it.

He loves being the thunder. Um, Wads, where are you on in the thunder? Yeah, I think you should be excited in the sense that the lion's share of the young guys seem to be competent, right? Shea Gilgis Alexander's already a first team all NBA. Like having somebody of that caliber on your team is enough to be excited about. I think what's going to be interesting is how the young guys, the guys who aren't Shay figure out their roles and the pecking order within this team.

Because there's a lot of them. And how the team ultimately becomes great is that, you know, KD becomes your number one, Russ becomes a clear number two, Harden anchors the bench and Ibacca's your defensive specialist right? Like those guys had clear defined roles which eventually broke up the team but you know

when they were cooking as young guys their roles became defined. There was never no question of well should James be starting at point guard even though in hindsight we realized that he should have but there was never that conversation in real time. The roles

were what they were and that's why they were able to get to the freaking NBA final behind that. I wonder if their young guys are going to be able to figure out and, you know, ease into who they are within the pecking order and be the best player that they can be within said role. I'm glad you brought up Thunder teams of old because if you think about that run when they went to the finals in 2012, two seasons before that, before that season is when they really popped. They jump from 23 wins to 50 wins. This Thunder team is not ready for that kind of jump.

For one, they just weren't bad enough to make that kind of jump to begin with. But in terms of like, could they get to that 50 win level? I think they have it in them. And, you know, that ultimately means probably like bumping up against a team in the first round like that Thunder team did in 2010 against the Lakers, where it's just like you're not quite ready to advance in the playoffs, but you're ready to get there. And you're ready to have a really strong regular season to kind of,

really position yourself well for the future. Yeah. I think the one interesting character in the mix here is going to be giddy. Because on the one hand, he seemed to exemplify all of what we liked about the Thunder last year. It's like positionalist. Anyone could attack off the dribble. They're running. It was just like a fun style of basketball that I think he very much reflected and added too. But then you have to start wondering, well, can Chet Holmgren take the pounding of being a full-time five with J. Alain Williams, J. Will next to him. No way, is it J. Dub.

J. Dub is the rookie of the year candidate last year, right? I'm just going to let you twist in the wind on this one. The dude who takes the charges is not J. Dubb. That's J. Will. Okay. So they might have to play J. Will as a bigger four in order to protect him. You have to lose someone from the starting lineup. Is that going to be Dort? It's probably most likely going to be giddy.

How does he like take that? What does it do to the overall just approach of the team? and long term, like, where does he fit into the mix if you do want to keep playing like that? So they have a lot of questions still to figure out here, but they're the fun type. Like, these are good type of problems to have that I'm really looking forward to seeing them figure out. Yeah, the questions for the Thunder are not like, are our guys talented? It's do our guys fit in a way that's going to be conducive to contending basketball? And so lots of opportunities, lots of avenues going forward.

We'll see who's actually on the Thunder in three years because not only do they have all these talented young players, and some good flyers who could really pop for them, but obviously they have all these picks as well. And so they will be a natural trade candidate whenever they are ready to kind of push the throttle forward and accelerate. If the thunder come out and with all this athleticism and length

are able to guard the hell out of people this year, then, you know, sky's the limit for what they do in the future. So if it's not the thunder taking the biggest leap next season in terms of when, So they had 40 last year. They finished ninth in the West. Which team do you think will take the biggest league?

That's easy. That's Indiana, baby. Indiana? Yeah, I think it's Indiana because... 35 wins last year. Yeah, I think they can easily get to 45, 46, 47, 40, like, easily. And that's because at the end of the year, Halliburton didn't play, right? And so they became a really bad team once he was not around.

But I think he's going to come back better than ever, you know, New Deal in Toe. Mathrin, another year of development. Obviously, one of my favorite guys. Of course, Pod favorite Miles Turner's back. I'm obsessed with the Obie Toppin edition. That's a great ad. Obviously, Brucey B. Come on now. Like, this team is going to be very, very, very good next year.

And, yeah, I'm slotting them in for a solid 47. 46 wins. That's a lot. 47 wins for the Pacers. Yeah. I'll say this. It's easier in the West than it's going to be in the West. My problem with picking a team for the West is just that there's going to be so much competition.

And there are so many teams that like if one minor thing goes the right way, all of a sudden, that team could easily be like the six seed, like the Pelicans with Zion actually playing or a prime example of that. So I could see the Pacers taking a big jump. I think they could take a jump, but the Miami Heat won 44 games last season and might get Damian Lillard. Oh, that's an easy one, though. They play in a division with Orlando and Charlotte and Washington. The future of the NBA, yeah.

I mean, like, I just, I could easily see them making a huge jump. If we're talking, like, strictly wins and losses, they feel like a team that's destined for the, like, 54 to 58 wins club, which is honestly in this era of the NBA, like a pretty exclusive group. Yeah, for real. So the Sons are definitely in that same mix where full season of Kevin Durant and Bradley Beal. Sure. A lot of health questions with them, though. Like if depending on who's healthy for the whole run for Phoenix.

The Lakers, I imagine will be a really good regular season team. 43 wins last year. I have the Pelicans down. Like I said, the Thunder. Dallas is probably the team I would pick just because I'm pretty high on them next year. And I also have the basers. So those are the teams I had. All right.

It's time for a special part of today's show brought to you by Mickelope Ultra. You know what they say, no pain, no gain. But hard work doesn't have to come at the expense of fun. It's all about balance. Like the balance and refreshing flavor of Mickelope Ultra. It's only worth it if you enjoy it. So let's talk about who's putting in the work, but enjoying the journey. I did want to talk about leaps, but I wanted to talk about players instead of teams here.

So I have some guys down, but Rob, who do you think is the player that could take? take the biggest leap in next season? For me, it's Cade Cunningham, and it's a combination of just has not been healthy enough to actually be on the floor yet, to actually make any kind of leap, but especially like how he's going to put it all together with a slightly more complete team, with a slightly better supporting cast. He's exactly the kind of processor and playmaker. You want to just get reps on the floor.

And God, I'm really hoping this is the year for him to not, to be out there and enjoy it for once, to actually get to play through a full NBA regular season. I'm going to throw you guys a curveball because of some of my previous comments in the past, but I'm going to go with Jabari Smith. I like the idea that he's got a point guard, a real point guard in Fred Van Vleet on the team this year. And more importantly, the coach is going to have the gravitas to emphasize actual NBA basketball on offense, organization, you know, team concepts, playing for one another. And I think he's going to be the direct beneficiary of that new mindset.

And plus he killed everybody in Summer League, which you guys know means everything in the NBA. So yeah, Jabari Smith taking a big leap next season. Also has Dylan Brooks there to rear him and steward him through all the tough moments. Disciplinarian. Nobody's more disciplined than that guy. Could help him with his vest selection. I have a couple of guys down here. On the high end, I'd say Tyrese Hallibur and Anthony Edwards, I could see both of those guys going from All-Star or Fringe All-Star to Superstar next year. I have down in the lower tier, Scotty Barnes, if only because he might get the opportunity to finally showcase that,

despite Waz's general pessimism about our friend up north there. Powell Bankero, Cade Cunningham. They also have most of the Rockets roster in addition to Jabari Smith, like Jalen Green. Is he going to be a player? I'm in Thompson. There's like, there's 30 of those guys there. And also a personal favorite on the group chat podcast. Christian Brown.

Get in that Bruce Brown role. Let's go. finally gets to develop into the star that he will ultimately become here as we all. The player that is ultimately here to save us. Well, you know, Waz, it's only worth it if you enjoy it. That's the philosophy behind Mickelope Ultra, only 2.6 carbs and 95 calories. Learn more at michelope Ultra.com must be 21 years of age. Enjoy responsibly.

All right, I think that's it for us. Guys, any big plans on the docket over the offseason? until the season starts to go. Why is immediately? No, no big plans. No, no big plans until Sweden, guys. We're going to Sweden together, guys. And so, yeah, really pumped about that.

I can't wait to go to Stockholm for the first time in my life and do some team bonding with the fellas, man. It's going to be great. Ben Cruz is going to be there. Isaiah Blakely went with the cool crew on the first round. So he won't be down with us. But we're going to get some things done down there, man. I'm excited about it.

We're all going to spend more time. together in consecutive days in Sweden that we ever had after like in the midst of recording this podcast for like two years together. That'll be fun. How do you how do you feel about that, Justin? Awful. I don't want to see you in person ever. Wow. I was not expecting that. Don't come near my my Danish croissons. You're treating me like a fan of this show. That's very rude. But yeah, no, that'll be fun. So we'll be back, I think probably in about a month or so, bringer NBA show feed will be ongoing with different episodes checking on the latest news, but our vacations just don't happen to overlap at the point where we would check in. But we'll

be back. Thanks, everyone, for listening this season. Looking forward to next season. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We stole him away from his rising success on the rewatchables and in his 90s movies, critiques. Thank you to Brennan Cruz. We'll see you next time.