The Ringer NBA Show - Jimmy Butler Trade Talks and Media Day Takeaways | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 312)

Episode Date: September 25, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor explore the discussion around the Minnesota Timberwolves looking to trade away Jimmy Butler (0:52) and react to the highlights of an eventful media day (28:32). We are now on Twitter! Follow us at @RingerNBA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Conflict, O'Climber, aka Kevin O'Candyland. Oh my gosh. Kevin! Chris, what's going on today? How are you doing? So the Ringer and Bill Simmons petitioned people to come up with a name for our show.

I still think we don't have one, right? Am I right on this? It's overwhelming how many recommendations they've been. There have been so many good ones, but there's nothing that's really just hit me, Chris. And I'm looking for that. I'm looking for that spark and it's not there right now. So we'll still be the Rigger NBA show until we can find one. All right, Kevin, we got big, big news going on in the NBA because one of the best.

players in the NBA is more than likely on the move. Hopefully he does not move before this podcast comes out. Jimmy Butler and the Timberwolves appear to be headed for a divorce after one season. The story, as reported by Adrian Wurgenowski and others last night, says that Tibbs is not giving up. He has been trying to convince Jimmy Butler to come back to the team, but then it goes in this incredible amount of confusion seems to be overtaking this whole situation where you know, you got on one hand Tibbs knows, or at least there's the line that says

Tibbs has the understanding that if he doesn't get Butler back, that the return's not going to be good enough to make the playoffs, therefore he will have missed the playoffs two of three years. There he's going to lose his job. He also reports, Adrian does, that teams have heard from the Timberwolves. Some have heard from Glenn Taylor, the owner. Some have heard from Scott Layden and Tom Tibido with little apparent coordination between the two parties. So you've got this player that appears to be on the move. And yet this situation where the owner and the front office, at least through this reporting,

do not appear to be on the same page on this at all. A couple days ago, Chris, I had a. conversation with an NBA executive about this. And this was around the time where it first started breaking that Taylor was kind of taking control, right? He said to me, he's like, if he's not leaning on Thibodeau and Layden, who's the people he's going to lean on for for advice on like which players to look for? Which players project, you know, to be good players moving forward?

Which players should they be actually seeking out? And ultimately, it seems the past couple of days it's just been passed back. to Tibido and Leiden, the two guys who originally forced Taylor to be like, you know what, we're trading Jimmy Butler. And I would imagine that this is incredibly confusing for not only everybody inside the Minnesota Timberwolves organization, but every other team that's trying to trade with Minnesota, as you stated. And the vibe I get, you know, the sense I get from talking to executives is that right now

offers really aren't that good. And if you're Tibido and you're Leiden, you're not going to make a deal unless you're getting something quality back. So while I initially thought, and maybe this will results by the time we finish recording or by the end of the day, I do wonder if maybe there's some benefit to holding off a little bit because right now it seems like offers are quite weak overall. Yeah, and then maybe they strengthen over time. That is what happened.

Or get weaker. They could always get weaker too, and that's the risk. Well, here's what I'd say. They did get strong. The last instance we have of this where a player wanted out, the spurs did buy their time. And the offers did get better. We thought that they had lost a tremendous amount of leverage because that divorce was happening. And so it was like, all right, well, what kind of leverage do you have?

Because he's even talking about not even playing for you anymore. And then it like kind of, you know, it kind of died down after a little while. And then they ended up, I think, by most people's account, they got good return for Kauai. Yeah, it was a good return. And, you know, there's still some conversation that maybe the offer from Toronto was better than what they ended up doing. But it was a solid deal for sure. And I think Minnesota can get something fine out of this. But of the three teams that it seems to perhaps be down to in the sweepstakes, I wouldn't rule out anybody else.

But the nets, the heat, and the clippers, it's. It's tough to put together a really appealing package. You know, you know, is like an offer led by Karis Lavert, really anything special from Brooklyn, if they even are willing to deal Lavert. And I've heard some, you know, noise that they might not be willing to include Lavert in a Butler deal. You know, is a deal from Miami with Justice Winslow as the main young piece with, I don't know, the Drogich, really that appealing for Minnesota is something, you know, from the Clippers. without Shea Gildas Alexander

with Jerome Robinson and Tobias Harris really that appealing when Harris will be a free agent next summer? I don't know. I mean, there's really not anything out there that's realistic at least, that that's reasonable with what you could expect a deal to be that, to me,

makes sense for Jimmy Butler. But the problem is that he ain't coming back. Yeah, I still have Justice Winslow's sock. Me too. Me too. He would be the one of the players that you just mentioned as centerpieces for a deal, he would be the one I would want.

I think Karris Lavert, he's really, really underrated. Lavert's the guy I would want if I'm Minnesota of the guys we've mentioned for what it's forth. Obviously, you can do better, but... We always talk about how you need to let this stuff play out in order to decide. Here's the question.

Do you think that Minnesota will get a better return than Lori Marketin, Zach Levine, and Chris Dunn? That's interesting, isn't it? I mean, like, I wonder. I mean, it could pan out better in the future. But at the time, the deal, no. I would be shocked if it were anything that came close to that.

Yeah. Well, and the other thing is, right? I mean, those three lottery picks, you know? Oh, I know. And we don't know, like, the book is certainly not written on the careers of any of those. I mean, who knows what they're all going to eventually become? We know that Levine already got a massive, massive contract. We know that.

And Lowry Markinen made immense progress from his college season at Arizona to the end of his rookie season with the Chicago Bulls. And he's already added more muscle. He's due for a potential breakout season as a sophomore. We know the surface stuff, which is obviously that Jimmy Butler, Carl Towns didn't get along. Jimmy Butler did not think very highly of Wiggins and towns. We have seen that even become public. And I do wonder, so it may, it's probably just as simple as that, that they butted heads. But it is rather unbelievable.

There have been times throughout NBA history that you put a team together and they don't have success because the chemistry is bad. And so it comes to an inevitable end. In this particular case, Kevin, if Jimmy Butler does not get hurt last year, the rate at which they were winning would have been good enough to make them the three seed in the Western Conference. So that's what's kind of crazy about it to me. It's not like the lack of relationships or the budding of the heads or whatever necessarily cost them winning games. This team had success. I know the way it played out and that they're scratching and clawing to make the playoffs in the end. But if we talk about when they were all playing as a unit and playing together, I mean, they were a top.

They were a home court advantage team, for God's sakes, in the Western Conference. That's what makes it a little perplexing that this went. so incredibly awry, right? Yeah, and it's also the reason why Tibido doesn't want to deal Jimmy Butler because they were damn good last season when all those guys were on the floor and healthy. And like even yesterday,

there was the report that Tibido and Jimmy Butler met again with Tibbs trying to win him back and bring him back. Kind of a last-ditch effort. Can you blame him, right? Can you really blame Tibido when there's, you know, average or poor deals on the table and you could be trading a guy who was, in my opinion, at one point last season, an MVP candidate with the amount of things he was doing for the Timberwolves.

He was fantastic around mid-late January into February. He was unbelievable. You can't blame tips for doing that. There's just not a lot that's good out there, and they were really good last year. It's an impossible position for him as a coach, as a GM, and for the franchise. Well, you know, I'm a massive Jimmy Butler fan. He's one of the very few best two-way players in the entire NBA. And to wit, they were 13 points better with him on the court than off the court last year during the regular season.

And in their one playoff series, they were 25 points better with him on the court versus off the court. Meanwhile, we know that towns obviously, it didn't go the same way for him. Blame whoever you want. They were a minus 15 when he was on the court during the playoffs and a plus two. when he was off it. So, I mean, that's a 17-point difference. Butler, I mean, Butler was a massive difference, both in the regular season and in the playoffs for them.

Now, here's the one interesting thing. And if we go back to the Kauai stuff, the problem is from reading all these stories, it appears to me as if, okay, if Minnesota is resigned to moving him, they've got to also make up for a mistake. That is something the Spurs did not have to do in their deal, which is,

the attachment of Gorgie Jang to get off of that. Because as it stands right now, right? So now all of a sudden, your offers are simply not going to be as good if you're trying to move off of that deal. Because as it stands right now, I mean, you'd look up and in a couple of years, you've got like $90 million put into towns, Wiggins, and Dang. I mean, that's outrageous. Outrageous.

And so they've got to get off Gorgie Jang in the meantime. I mean, obviously, in retrospect, that contract is very bad. I mean, he's got three years and $48 million left on that thing. And so you kind of anchor down the butler in terms of value if that is a stated goal, if they feel like they need to get off Jang if they're moving off a butler, right? Yeah, I mean, I like Goregi Jang. I like him a lot. It's like a backup big man, but I don't like him for $15 million going up to 17.2.

Geez, what a deal, huh? I know. Oh, my goodness. You know, and that's why Sacramento appears to be stepping in is that third team. They have $10 or $11 million in cap space that makes it easier for them to absorb a deal. Like, for example, like, let's say it's a three-way deal between the wolves and the nets and the kings. The kings can absorb Jang's deal by only giving up like costus kufus. It's not hard for them to absorb the salary.

The question is, is what is the team, the nets or the he? Heat or the Clippers willing to give out for it. And that's where I'm extremely interested in Brooklyn here because, A, they're one of the teams that Jimmy Butler had on his list that he'd be willing to resign with so they could feel more confident that he would actually stick around long term. B, they have two first round picks in 2019 and all of their future picks, unlike the Heat, they don't have their 2021 pick. So they're one short in the future.

And the Clippers can't deal a first until 2022. So Brooklyn, to me, at least as of recording this morning on Tuesday, is the most interesting team as a potential destination for Jimmy Butler because of those factors and the fact that they have a combination of younger-ish impactful players and movable expiring contracts to send to Minnesota. They can put together a nice package. Yeah, and with the Kings, not only do they have that cap space, they've got three contracts.

You mentioned Costa Cufus. It's also Amman Shumpert and Zibo. both have like, you know, $11 to $12 million. Even Ben McLemaklor, 5.5 million. Yeah, and they want to get, you know what I mean? They just want to get future assets to be involved in this. They're willing to take on the money.

They want to get future assets in order to get involved in this. And it appears as if Minnesota is going to need them to get involved in this in order to make it happen. Yeah. I mean, it depends on the deal, of course. If you're Brooklyn or Miami or anybody else, any of the teams that want to me, baller, you don't want Georgi Zhang.

on your roster, whereas Sacramento, they don't have a 2019 first-round pick. That's going to the Celtics if it's between 2 to 30, and it's going to the Sixers if it's the number one pick. So the Kings aren't going to have their 2019 first-round pick. The Nets could give up one of them. They have their own first-round pick. They have a top 12 protected first from the Nuggets. They could give up one of those and whatever else to make it worthwhile for the kings to take on Jang.

And you know what? For Sacramento, it makes sense. For Brooklyn, I think it makes sense. You get a top player and Jimmy Butler. From Miami, it makes sense too because you don't have any cap space moving forward. If I'm Miami, I'm one team that would think about taking on Jang. The problem is, on the other end, if you're in Minnesota, you're going to have to take back some salary that doesn't expire this following summer. It's tough to find a good deal, man, from Minnesota.

It's really tough. When you're playing around with a trade machine, I don't know if you've spent wasted an hour like I did last. night, Chris, but it's tough to find a good deal that's realistic. Well, and the other thing, if you are Brooklyn or Minnesota, if you're going to be giving up assets, then you want to have the confidence that you'd be able to resign the guy. Because you are whittling down a lot of teams if the message gets out there from Jimmy Butler and his camp, like, hey, you can trade for us, but we ain't resigning there. I mean, that is the leverage that they have.

That is part of it. Whereas, yeah, I mean, Miami and Brooklyn, they could resign the guy. I don't think anybody would think that they were just making a one year. They were giving up whatever they were giving up to only have him for a year. Keep in mind, two things. Brooklyn was on the list alongside the Knicks and the Clippers, and there's probably a couple other teams he'd be willing to resign with. Don't know about Miami.

Maybe he is, maybe it isn't. But one of the things I heard is that Butler and his circle have continued to reiterate the three teams that he originally gave as in the play. is he'd be willing to resign. And if that's the case, if you're Miami or any of these other teams that can theoretically put together a package, the Milwaukee books,

Toronto Raptors, whoever else, you've got to be feeling a little bit pessimistic and bringing the guy in in terms of keeping him long term. And again, that's one of those factors where I'd lean back towards the Nets and the Clippers as teams that just make more sense

for the team Butler will end up on. Well, truth be told, in the end, money talks, and we all thought that when Oklahoma City made the deal for Paul George, that that was going to be a one-year deal. And I think right now, if we went back in time to when Kauai first was attained by the Raptors to, as of right now,

I think the percentage would go up significantly on what are the chances Kauai stays there. And so we have had two teams attain, monster players over the course of the last year where Paul George did extend in Oklahoma City and Kauai Leonard, who knows now? I mean, I don't think that people are out there at least of right now saying it's a foregone conclusion.

He's leaving Toronto at the end of the season. We don't know, right? He might, he might extend there. Sure. After the season's over. It's totally possible. I mean, in the end, you're passing up a lot of money to go elsewhere.

and most of these guys don't want to do that. Sure. You know, some guys, this sounds silly, but some guys stay, some guys leave. And, like, you really don't know what you're getting yourself into unless you do. And right now, indications are that Jimmy Butler prefers to be on one of those teams

in L.A. or New York, and he doesn't want to be anywhere else. And maybe after a year he would be willing to, but as of now, I wouldn't feel too confident if I'm one of those other teams. Okay, I was thinking about this last night. I have a hard time. Well, obviously in the east, there's a hard time.

Outside of Atlanta, probably Orlando. Like, what teams do you think could attain Jimmy Butler and not be playoff teams? That if you put Jimmy, and now we're not, let's just say, and we're not counting in return. Let's act like they're not giving up their, whoever their best players are right now, but they're giving up future assets and whatever in order to attain him. I think he makes a lot of these teams playoff teams, seriously. Yeah, I mean, the East stinks, at least towards the bottom. Like, at the top, you have Toronto and Boston and Philadelphia,

and even Indian is going to take a step up this year. Milwaukee, Fianas continues improving. There's some really strong teams at the top, but those last couple spots in the East, they're really up for grabs if a team emerges or acquires a star player. A young player makes the jump. If Lowry Markening turns into a superstar, who knows, right? Okay, well, how about this, Kevin?

let me stop you right there. Brooklyn won 28 games. That's the team that you have talked about as a possibility for Jimmy Butler. Do you think Jimmy Butler turns Brooklyn from a 28 win team that this year they could become a playoff team? I think they'd be in the playoffs. Yeah. One factor, keep in mind, Butler's health. You know, Butler has only played over 70 games twice in his career. if he manages to stick in his typical 60-ish, you know, amount of games played, I think that propels them into the playoffs. When you factor in the improvement from young players, Jared Allen, a really good rim-running center,

Rondea Hollis Jefferson, kind of a do-it-all guy. And Karis Lavert, like I said, if they're able to get Butler without giving up Lavert, I would expect Lavert to continue improving as one of those playmaking, versatile, switchy wings. Joe Harris back, DeMarie Carroll, you know, older and grittier, you know, we'll see what they give up if a deal were to happen, but I do think Butler puts them at least on the six, seven, eight seed, you know, bubble, right?

Who knows who makes it? But I think they're right there and they would end up going into the playoffs with Jimmy Butler. How much you, Chris, do you think they go in or is this too fast for Brooklyn? I think that, I think Jimmy Butler is one of the best players in the league. Yes, I do. That's what I said. Where would you rank Jimmy Butler? I mean, I realize there's a tough question to answer, like, without a list of players.

but where do you think you would rank Butler on your top player list? Well, he's made the All-MBA team twice, right? So, I mean, he's made All-MBA. I certainly think that I would have it. I would not get past 15. No way. I think I would have him about 15. Yeah, I mean, I would not get past 15.

I think it's possible. Because, listen, I love two-way guys. And I love guys that, like, you know, those kind of guys you want in your foxhole with playoff time. Yeah. baby, gritty grind. I like tough guys. I don't like soft guys and I like guys that I think when the going gets tough,

are they going to, what's going to happen? Do I want them on my side? And Jimmy Butler checks every box. You are such a grizzlies, man. Well, no. I mean, the way it has worked. Do you have gritt and grind tattooed on you, Chris?

This has been always my favorite teams. I just don't like cissies. I never have. I've never liked playing with them when I played sports. growing up. I just like, I mean, listen, there are guys that either you want, either you care about winning and you're willing to do whatever it takes or you care about the way you look or you care about the stats that you put up on the stat sheet or whatever else. Jimmy Butler is a dog. And so it just so happens. I had the great fortune of having Zebo and Tony Allen as guys to root

for. But that's always been the case. I've always liked those kind of guys. I've always like tough guys. I've always like guys that play hard and Jimmy Butler plays hard. He goes hard on both ends. He's got a lot of pride. Who doesn't like guys that dive on the floor and hustle on defense? You! You! What are you talking about?

I love play. What are you talking about? I love players like that. Who doesn't love players like that? What I was getting to is this. This is my point, Chris. Butler is for sure, when healthy, a top 10 player. We saw it

Like we talked about earlier, he was an MVP candidate at one point last season. He was unbelievable, do it all guy, playmaker, got better shooting off the catch. He rebounds, he passes, defends multiple positions. He does literally everything. But health is a factor. It's a factor. Like I said earlier, he's only played over 70 games twice in his career. He's had a lot of lower body injuries over his career.

He just turned 29 years old. So that means he'll be 30 when he, as he hopes, signs a five-year max contract worth $190 million next summer. And if you're the team taking him on, that needs to factor into the equation just as much as his sheer immense elite talent does. Because you're not paying for his past production. You're not paying for Jimmy Butler at 25 years old when he emerges an all-star. You're not paying for Jimmy Butler, who resembled an MVP candidate with Minnesota. You're paying for Jimmy Butler in his 30s.

and that needs to factor into what Minnesota gets back in a deal and what you're willing to give up if you're any of the teams that are interested, and that's precisely why this is so difficult in addition to everything else that we've already talked about because you don't know what Jimmy Butler's going to be as he ages of so many miles and so many past injuries already on his resume.

Yeah, and you also, right, how long is he one of the top 15 players in the league? You know what I'm saying? How quick does that go? When you sign him by year two, three of that contract, Is he still? I mean, you're just having a guess, right? Surely he will be, you would imagine through age 33,

he can still be an outstanding player in the league. But the tail end of that contract could be bad for sure. And if you're talking about the kind of money you're talking about, that's a lot of money on the books for a guy who's not good enough to be your best player, right? Or somebody that you're counting on every night. Do you think this knocks Minnesota out of your, Western Conference playoffs. Yeah.

Without question. Hell yeah. Oh, really? No doubt about it. Yeah. I mean, unless. No, I find that interesting. I thought you,

I love Towns. I love Towns. But like Towns is still only 22 years old. And unless Towns suddenly becomes a stud on defense and they start force feeding them the ball and he's this and he's like suddenly jumps into the top five player conversation.

But even then, like the Pelicans have Anthony Davis and they can barely sneak into the playoffs. Even then, Chris. Yeah, obviously what's happened with Anthony Davis's first eight years of his career's mouth practice. Oh, I mean. We've talked about that. It's just, you know, it's disappointing, you know.

It really is. Anthony Davis, not to go on a side tangent here about Anthony Davis, but, boy, like, I really, really wish he was appreciated by more casual fans. Like, listeners of the show know how amazing Anthony Davis is. But I really wish, like, everybody that likes basketball understood and appreciated. how fantastic of a talent he is. Maybe we'll see it someday and now they sign with a new agency. Well, and by virtue of playing

on the team that he has played in, in the market that he has played in, he's just not on national television. Yeah, for sure. Right? So, I mean, that is how you become a star. You know, people get to watch you play. And unless you were a league pass, you know, subscriber,

it's been very difficult to watch Anthony Davis for the first eight years of his career or whatever. What year is this going to be for Davis? Is this going to be eight? It's year seven, year seven. Yeah, drafted number one in 2012. Boy, time goes by quickly. It does go by fast.

All right, we're going to take a quick break. NBA Media Day was yesterday, and we'll talk about some of the things we gleaned from all of the interviews that everybody did around the league. We'll do that after these words. The Ringer NBA show brought to you today by Audible. Introducing Audible Originals, a new member Benfici. benefit. Audible originals are exclusive audio titles created by celebrated storytellers from worlds as diverse as theater, journalism, literature, and bore. Every month, Audible members get one credit for any audiobook, plus two Audible originals from a changing selection that you can't get

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All right, Kevin, NBA Media Day was yesterday, and all of the players around the league did a ton of interviews. Who would have ever guessed? I figured that there would be big news out of L.A., though there wasn't necessarily big news out of L.A. You figured there'd be stuff coming out of Boston, et cetera. What I did not expect was for Kauai Leonard laughing to take over the Internet yesterday. And it did tenfold yesterday.

And it is quite strange that I feel like 99% of all people that, saw that. That was the first time they ever heard Kauai Leonard laugh. That's the first time I ever heard him laugh. Same with you, right? There's, I think, an old spurs clip of him laughing, but that's the only other time that I can recall. But this was the best laugh I've heard from Kauai.

It was a fantastic laugh, wasn't it? It is a great laugh. You know what? I wish you would laugh more because he strikes me as the kind of guy and everybody's got friends like this. When they laugh, it's just infectious. Like when they when they laugh like there's no way to not laugh. Some would say it was scary. Some would say it was scary. Just judging from all the commentary I saw on Twitter and whatnot yesterday.

Oh no. It does not strike me as it. It tickles me. I mean. I think it's when I see it, I laugh. Me too. The idea of him thinking something is funny and it wasn't even like something right particularly funny. and yet there he was getting tickled by it and so that makes me laugh. I feel like he has a very infectious laugh to me. That's my opinion. The NBA is so weird that we're talking about Kyle Leonard who last time he was healthy.

I didn't expect that to be taking over. I mean, it's just, it's so great that this is a thing. Did you see the video I put together yesterday, Chris? The little, so you see that's where the trouble began, that smile, that damn smile. Did you see that clip? Yes, I did. I'm like, I feel like a kid coming home getting an A on a paper,

he expected to get an F on. Like, I'm proud of that video that I made. Like, I feel like, it took me only like 10 minutes to put together, but like, I feel good about it. I never feel good about my tweets, but that tweet I feel good about. Oh, you had to feel good about the Tony, the Tony Parker tweet to Chez Serrano yesterday.

I mean, that was okay. Come on, that was hilarious. I don't know. Shit. It's easy to poke fun at Shay. Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, he would say it's also easy to poke fun at me. I'm going to tell you this. Tony Parker wearing a Hornet's uniform was incredibly strange.

Oh my God. It just feels all wrong, doesn't it? Jeez. It really does. It feels all wrong. I talked about editing video. That looks like a Photoshopped image. I know.

It's weird. It is weird. Like, he is one of the very few guys that if you were going to put your money down, that guy retires in that uniform. I mean, he's at the very, very top of the list. I just saw no scenario in which he wouldn't retire a spur, especially given his circumstance in life regarding his willingness to be a bench guy. I mean, hell, Tony Parker's an elder statesman there.

He's like on the frigging Mount Rushmore, and DeJante Murray was starting over him. And he had just kind of gone into that role. And so it wasn't like that was an issue It wasn't like Oh, I've been with this franchise Because you see this, right? They don't they don't view me as a starter anymore So I'm going somewhere else

He had already like You know, come to terms It was part of it though It was You know, he mentioned sometime this summer That the Hornets were able to promise him more of a role And gave him more money

Whereas the Spurs I think It's very possible That he would have just been plastered On the bench behind Not just Dejante Murray But also Patty Mills Maybe so You might be right about

that. I mean, obviously, he's not going to be, he's coming off the bench behind Kimball Walker. Exactly. You're right. And that's why I wonder if maybe like that Hornets role, because Tony Parker's really not that good anymore, if he ends up seeing his playing time dwindle even in Charlotte. Just because, just because somebody told you that they're going to give you something, doesn't mean that they are. Yeah. Other news that came out from Media Day yesterday, um, players always get asked about, especially when they're coming down to the end of their contracts, about staying in those cities. And sometimes they can be very diplomatic and they and say, hey, you know, we're going to let this season play out.

I really enjoyed playing here, whatever else. But I thought that there were three guys that I thought really went out of their way to make it clear they wanted to be where they are, which is not, listen, that's not the end all be all. DeMarre Rosen wanted to be a Raptor for life and he's not a Raptor for life. But Kyrie Irving, Clay Thompson, Kimball Walker, all three of them. and Thompson and Kyrie are obviously both been in great situations and obviously currently are in great situations. I was a little surprised that Kemba, I wouldn't have expected him to necessarily, you know, kind of not, I don't want to say draw a line in the same, but just talk about, you know, extensively how much he loves being a hornet.

but Kyrie, Clay, Kemba, if we look up a year from now, do you think any of them are possibly wearing a different uniform than what they are right now? We'll see how Kemba feels once Tony Parker steals a starting position on the team, right?

Oh, come on. Come on. I mean, look, with Kemba, it still applies. I mean, we'll see how he feels at the end of the season. If the Charlotte Hornets make the playoffs or not, if the continual dwindling in the middle,

who knows how. how he feels. But I could absolutely see him for signing there. Thompson and Kyrie? I bet they both say. All right. Lamarcus Aldridge says the Spurs are going to be a better team this year than they were last year. Do you buy it?

Buy, yeah, because they have Demar de Rosen. And last year, they only had nine games of an unhealthy Co-E Islander. I think, I figure what the over-under was for the Spurs. I think Vegas had it set at like 42 and a half. I'd be slamming the over on the spurs. They don't have a bad team by any means. They really don't. They certainly don't.

They've lost that, they've lost that, quote, leadership, right, with Genobley and Parker and guys that have been there. Well, it does matter, though, Kevin. I know, I know. It does matter. But they also still have Greg Popovich. They still have that infrastructure from the ownership down to the coaching staff. They still have good guys, good people on their time. team. They still have veteran

presences. They still have high character younger guys. Yeah, they lost Genobley to retirement and Tony Parker to the Hornets. But they still have good people on their team. I don't think leadership would be as much of an issue. Well, we will see. I mean, I don't know who's going to be the guy. Are you with me on the over for them? Yeah, I see 43 and a half. That's as of August. Would you take the over on the spurs or under? I think it, you know, I view them a lot like I do the Patriots.

It's like, holler at me when they're bad. Like, I'll just keep waiting until. But, I mean, we look up every year, and it feels like we've done this for so many years, and this is going to be the year that they're finally not good, and then, of course, they're good. And the hell, they lost Kauai Leonard for the whole damn season last year. Exactly. And they were still good. So, yeah.

They won 47 games with Kauai playing only nine of them. And in those nine games, Kauai wasn't even typical Kauai. And now they added DeMarda Rosen, who has gotten better every season of of his career. And now he's going to be in a system that could enhance him even more. Marcus Alders is still an all NBA talent. You know, Paul Gasola somehow is still chugging along somehow.

Jacob Pertil a young, young, nice backup, Big Man, Dejante Murray getting better. They have some good players on their team, man. I think they went over, over 43 and a half. And the weirdest thing last year was they were terrible on the road. I mean,

they won 14 out of 41 games. 14. They were 33 and 8 at home and 14 and 27 on the road. I just, that is, they had such a strange season last year. They really did. That's going to be the biggest differential in the NBA from last year, right? Got to be. Has to be, right?

I mean, in terms of, because to be that good at home and that poor on the road. Yeah, it is. You will see, you see teams. Just some quick glance, you can tell. Yeah, I mean, you see teams that are, you know, you know, you would always think that, This is the kind of thing that could hurt Denver, could hurt Utah, right? Because of their advantage that they have at home.

But both of those teams, I guess the Nuggets had a losing record on the road. They were 15 and 26. They're the only other team that really comes close from what I can tell. They were 31 and 10 at home. Speaking of the Denver Nuggets, what a perfect segue. You're a pro, Chris.

I thought this was interesting. Mike Malone said that, he went on a lot about Gary Harris as an emerging star and said he thought he was one of the best two-way players in the league. I like it. Harris, another guy who's been a little buried in terms of publicity, opportunity for people to get to see him play over the years. I would venture to say that Yokic has certainly gotten a lot more attention

as the young guy on that team that is a future all-star. But what about Gary Harris? Do you buy Gary Harris as a star? Do you think Gary Harris is going to become an NBA All-Star? I'm going to flip this back at you like this, Chris. Okay. Today, you can only have one of Jamal Murray or Gary Harris. Who would you take?

This is not even, I mean, it's not even a question. I would take Harris. It's not even, I don't know. Oh, God, I don't even blink. Okay. Because I think there's a lot of people listening who are like, Jamal Murray, he's three years younger, right? so therefore he probably has more upside and that could be true

but I think I'd also take Gary Harris as well and that's because of the two-way ability he's a really really good defensive player and I don't think I mean the way he's improved as a shooter I don't think any difference between Murray and Harris is really that significant tomorrow Murray a little bit better a passer but it's not like his ball handling enables him to be a true playmaker I'd take Gary Harris for sure and I'm with Malone

that Harris is probably already one of the better two-way players in the league with the upside to be more. Like, let's, I mean, it's easy to overlook when there's so many good players in the league. But Harris is one of those guys that could make one of those surprised leaps. He's made drastic improvements in each of the four seasons of his career, and that might not stop. And Harris, to me, is like a 100% that's his position guy. What do you mean?

He's a two guard. That's it. That's what he is. On offense, on offense, but on defense, he's switchy and versatile. 100% yes. He's one of those guys you like gritty, gritty grinds. He's got the dog in him. Yes, I like Gary Harris.

So does Jamal Murray to be fair, right? It's just Jamal Murray, I don't think, has the same defensive ability that Gary Harris does. So that grit and grind that Jamal Murray might not have doesn't manifest in the way it does for Gary Harris. Not to knock, Jamal Murray. He's a really good young player for what it's worth. I just prefer Gary Harris's two-way ability. I agree with you. The other thing that came out was all these pictures of Lakers Media Day.

It becomes real, the meme team. Seeing Javall McGee and Rayjon Rondo and Michael Beasley and Lance Stevenson all together. And LeBron with him. And dude, how big did Lanzo Ball look? Whoa. I mean, you know, we always joke about, oh, he gained X amount of muscle or he gained X amount of weight or whatever. The best shape of my life. Right.

He really did. Dude, Lonzo looked huge. I mean, he's standing next to LeBron in those pictures, and I was like, damn. Because, I mean, he was, he's a lanky guy. Lonzo Ball was. You know, I always viewed him as a little lanky. He looks not lanky at all. And it was interesting to hear him talk about, you know, wanting to be a good teammate for LeBron.

And who do you think of all the players on that team? And let's throw out like the goofies, like on the bench. Let's talk about those. Come on. The disrespect, Chris. Come on. These two, they got a collection of goofies.

What if I call them? The misunderstood. Oh, my God. The underrated the determined mud, whatever. But he said that because of people like you, Chris, and people like me call them the meme team. All right. Okay.

So, Kuzma, Ingram. You know, these are the majors. and the young guys on that particular team, right? Who do you think LeBron has the most positive impact on of those three? Ingram, Kuzma, Ball. Oh, and you can even throw Josh Hart in there if you want to,

because I, Josh Hart had a really good season, but obviously a great summer league. I'm a heart fan. I really am. I like Josh Hart. I think he kind of gets thrown out as, I think he's totally valuable. It could be a really good player for any team, for that matter.

What do you think? I know this is probably a cop-out answer, but can I just say all of them? But if I have to pick one... Kevin O'Coppah. Kevin O'Coppah. It's all of them. Ingram can play on or off the ball. Kuzman's going to be enhanced by having a playmaker like LeBron.

But ultimately, if I have to pick one, it's Lonzo. And the reason why, Chris, is because I think, and I've long felt this since last summer when we first heard the rumblings about LeBron going to Los Angeles. I think Lonzo, prime Lonzo ball is the perfect point. guard for LeBron James. And the reason why is because Lonzo doesn't need the ball in his hands. He doesn't let it stick. He is such a quick decision maker that I think the partnership between those two is going

to be really exciting to watch. They're going to enhance each other's games. All right. I agree with you that Lonzo is going to be helped the most by getting to play with LeBron. Here's the true. The ideal boy guard next to LeBron can shoot theoretically. But I get what you're saying.

And Lonzo in terms of learning basketball. Lonzo shot like 38% on catch and shoot threes after December 7th last year. And I remember that date in my head because it was the day on the ringer. We dropped an article about as Lonzo shot, as Lonzo ball shot broken. And ever since that date, he shot really well on catching and shoot threes. And now he revised his jumper mechanics, Chris. It's going to be interesting.

Last thing for Media Day is DeAndre Aiton, who is the number one pick in the NBA draft, you may remember, Kevin. DeAndre 8, did you hear what he said about media? Do you know what the news regarding DeAndre was? No, I don't. He was on tape yesterday. He was so over Media Day and turned to one of the media representatives for the sons and said,

Do I have to do this next year? You have to do this. You have to do this every year for your entire career, DeAndre. He said, do I have to do this next year? Are you serious? I mean, no, it's just a joke. I mean, the reason why I'm reacting the way I am is, I don't know. It's just disappointing.

It's like, dude, if you're the face of the franchise, yeah, you have to do this. You have to do this. Do I have to do this next year? Wait until you tell him he's got to do it every his entire career. Media Day is usually fun. You know, what's interesting is a lot of the veteran guys, right? A lot of the veteran guys end up having more fun with it as the years go on than the younger guys, I think, right?

You know, it's another season that they're back in the fold. And it's kind of old hat to them, right? And maybe show more personality because they're more comfortable in their own skin as an NBA player. Anyway, that was Media Day yesterday. And by the next time you and I speak, Kevin, Jimmy Butler very well may be on a different team. And we will have preseason games that have already taken place. And obviously I know for your account and for me, what you hope is that this preseason is injury-free because there's nothing worse than losing players in the preseason for some of these teams for the upcoming season. And so hopefully get to see some young guys play, see what some of these teams look like playing together in the preseason.

So it could glean something. And then more importantly, just have everybody stay uninjured until the season begins in a couple of weeks. what are you going to be writing? Do you know? Yeah, I'm writing something about Gordon Hayward for tomorrow. Going to wrap that up right after we hang up on this pod. Awesome. And I mean, there's other stuff trying to figure out, but that's coming out tomorrow on the ringer. All right, Kevin, I'll talk to you next week.

Do I have to do this next week, Chris? You're under contract. You have to do this next week. Oh, now all your little fans are going to be like, see, I told you Kevin didn't like him. I told I can tell Kevin doesn't like him. I love you, Chris. I know. It's true.

It's true. Like, you know, waking up every Tuesday morning, it's like an exciting feeling knowing that we're going to be chatting. Hoops. I look forward to it every Tuesday. We will be back next Tuesday, now weekly. So we will be back every Tuesday through the NBA season and the NBA final. Let's go. Thanks for listening.

Go give us a rating and review on iTunes. tunes and we will talk to you next week.