The Ringer NBA Show - Joel Embiid Chooses Team USA Over France and LeBron Enters the Podcast Space | Real Ones

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

Logan and Howard discuss Joel Embiid’s decision to represent the United States over France at the 2024 Summer Olympics, the current state of international recruiting, and the future of Team USA’s program (1:02). Next, they talk about the launch of LeBron James's new podcast with J.J. Redick and why they were initially skeptical of it, as well as why it has a lot of promise (22:58). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have news shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackhour to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us.

on the press box. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck there. Real ones. Thursday, real ones. Gonna talk some international basketball and then talk some LeBron. So let's get into the international basketball first.

Joelle Embed. Joel Embed, there was a big story in the athletic yesterday by the great Joe Varden, basically detailing Joel Embed's decision to go. and play for Team USA and the Paris Olympics, despite a hard push from the Paris team to not only get his citizenship for France, his French citizenship, but also thinking that they had the promise of Joelle and Beat on the roster

and fumbling the bag altogether. It's a great piece. But it raises a lot of questions for me, at least, and me and Howard talked about this prepod was the fact that team, USA has to do this, right? Because, you know, when we talk about the dream team and we talk about other squads that have played in the last, I guess, 30 years for the team USA, it's been,

it's been teams that have been mostly homegrown. There's obviously Patrick Ewing and there's Tim Duncan, those guys, but most of the time it's been homegrown talent that has gone overseas and beaten the best of the best around the world. But now I feel like we're getting into this new age, Howard, where Team USA is going to have to start to go to the role with Spain and Greece, where they're going to have to export talent to not only keep up, but keep up their dominance in the near future. I know you read the article. What did you think of the pursuit of Joelle and Bede? And what do you think that says about how we go forward with Team USA in the near?

your future. Great stuff by Joe Varden over at the athletic. Really interesting story. And, you know, it's funny because we knew the basic outline that Joelle Embed had options, right? And this is, this is weird, right? This is like some, like, high school or college recruiting type stuff, right? We're like, there's, like, we don't, we don't see this on the international stage, normally where multiple countries are now bidding for a player as if it's like the next hot 13 year old, you know, hoop prodigy coming up and all these high schools are now angling to get them to come to their school. Like, it's strange. I don't know if this is, I don't think this is a preview of things to come, right? It's a very unique situation where Embedde had

multiple options. So France thinks that he's committed to them. That's what comes out in the story. The French basketball program absolutely thought he had committed. Ambide, through his people, denies that. Mbide did not talk to Joe Barden for the story. So there's probably some ambiguity there, right? Anytime you've got a he said, she said story, and especially if one side's not talking on the record extensively, you wonder.

But to the extent it says anything about the U.S. program, we've had a lot of stumbles, right? the team USA has had its stumbles over the last 20 years. And, you know, look, the dream team was put together in the early 90s to kind of get the U.S. back on track. And then when things got off track in 2004, when they, I think it was they won bronze that year. That was LeBron was there, but it was a young LeBron.

It was like Stefan Marbury and I can't remember everybody else on that team. But they flopped. Then you get the redeemed team. So the team USA, USA basketball has been working, hard for the last 20 years to make sure that the U.S. maintains its basketball supremacy. And it's getting harder. It's getting harder because it's not that the world caught up, but if the last whatever five MVPs of the NBA have anything or means anything, it's clear that there is a lot of elite level talent around the world now. And so that includes

Joelle and Bid as one of those MVP winners last year. So it's, It's almost natural that there's going to be some of this. If guys have dual nationality or optionality for where they can have a passport, those countries are going to pursue them. I don't know if this is a preview of things to come because, again, it was a unique situation. But it is fascinating. And if the U.S. had lost M.B. to France, how much would that endanger the U.S.'s chances at a gold this summer?

I don't know. the U.S. still has the vast majority of the elite level talent. So I don't know. What'd you think? I thought it would have been interesting. I just thought that the fact that Team USA has to go through these measures and desperate to get a center of that caliber shows just kind of where we are. Because even in trying to get a center these days, in general, shows where the American game is, I think.

You know, we play a lot smaller. I was at the Warriors game last night. They put, they're playing Draymond Green that's densely at the five. And that's not, that's definitely something that you see on most teams throughout the league, right? And then also I thought, just about the, just even the general future in the next few Olympics, right? Because after this time, after the 2024 games, there's not going to be a LeBron. There's not going to be a Steph. There's not going to be a Kevin Durant.

And I'm looking at the ringer player rankings right now. And the top five players on our rankings are not born in the U.S. And so I worry about the future of Team USA just from a, not from a talent of raw talent standpoint, but just how we go about producing our players. Because me and Raz to talk about this all the time on the pod about how our developmental leagues are compared to how it is overseas. We have this AAU culture where, you know, it's prioritizing highlights over development. in a lot of cases, and there's a lot of political things that go on behind the scenes that kind of mess up a lot of even great players trajectory. I mean, I talk, there's a lot of coaches in the league right now that talk about how they're coaching sophomores and juniors in college in the pros now, right?

These guys aren't coming into the league as prepared as they once did. And so I think that we're going to start seeing a lot more of these types of recruitments. Now, it was more, it seems like, based on the story that we read in the athletic was, Joelle feels like was leading the French team on in a little bit, but, like, always had plans to go to Team USA. And I think that the French national team was hanging on to a quote. And I'm sure he, Joel did, I'm sure Joel did spit sweet nothing to the French national group. But I think that this was a case of Joel ultimately wanting to be with Team USA.

say, but it might not be that in the next Olympics or the Olympics after that. So this is a balance that the Team USA has to go through because they have to figure out how they're going to develop the next great star. Now, they were blessed with LeBron and Steph and Michael Jordan and all those things. But I think that, you know, what we've seen over the last few years is that the world hasn't fully caught up. But if we have to go to a measure where this is a huge deal, then, My attenders are up, Howard.

Yeah. Quick thing, too, though, by the way, with this whole thing. Like, one of the interesting things about this saga with Ambid specifically is he never lived in France. He was not born in France. He's born in Cameroon, but he speaks French. That's the official language of Cameroon. Colonization, Howard, colonization. Colonization.

Rears its ugly head in so many ways. So that France, you know, had this kind of like weird claim to him or wanted to give him a passport and make him a French citizen for purposes of playing for France. That's the biggest stretch of this whole thing anyway. We don't know exactly what Joelle and Bede said to them, how definitive it was, whether he reneged, whether he just led them, whatever. the funny thing is if I'm going to you know if we're going to judge like desperation by national programs here there's obviously much more desperation on the part of France where Joel and Bid never actually lived saying hey we'll give you a passport and dual citizenship if you want to like play you know how hard it is to get that stuff it's hard it's really hard

they even make clear how the the lates that they went to right joel and Bede moved to the U.S. in when he was 16 years old. He's been here for a pretty long time. Like, if there's any place that it makes sense that he is a citizen of aside from Cameroon, it's actually the U.S. So like, it's all a little strange. In terms of like how much the U.S. needs him. All right. So yes, Joelle Embed, Nicola Yokic, Yonazana Sada da Koumbo, they've been racked up the MbupPs over the last five years. And Yokich is going to probably win another one this year. And, and And Luke is going to be in the mix for years to come. Shea Gildes-Alexander is Canadian.

He's going to be in the mix for years to come. So that's one indicator, but it's not the indicator of where things stand with the U.S. versus the world in terms of talent. Because if we – except that the NBA is a collection of the best players on earth in this sport, and there's 450 in any given season, it's about a quarter that are international players. So by my math, that means that the U.S. still has three, of the world's best basketball talent. That, Logan, should be enough for the U.S. to be

winning gold medals, I would think. But sometimes it's matchup oriented. And sometimes it's a style of play in the international game as opposed to the NBA. Like, there's other factors that come into play. And the fact is the gap between like the average U.S. player or even the all-star U.S. player and the all-star French player, the all-star German player, the all-star Slovenian, player, whatever. Like, at every level, A players, B, players, C plays, at every level, the gap is narrowed. And sometimes, because it's a five-person game, like, what do we always say about the NBA? You get one elite player changes the entire trajectory of your franchise. It's the same thing, obviously, at international play. One Luca, one Yokic, one Janus, one Ambide, and it changes everything

in terms of your chances. And also Howard, another thing, like the biggest weakness going into the Olympics for the U.S. national team was what? It's their size. Yeah. It's their front court. And if you're going up against, you know,

France, who has Joel Embedde and Victor Wimbunyama, like, that's a problem. The best setters of the NBA, Yoko Chit Mbid, both international players. And now Wembenyama's coming quick. Yep. also international like gobert that's why france was thirsty out here that's why france was that thirsty out here to get him hey what's why they were trying very hard to get him beat they told joveorda they

the coach of the french team wanted to put gobert ambide and wembanyama on the court together who i'm actually kind of mad we don't get to see that like i don't i have i don't care who who wins the battle for joella mbead services or or anything but like man i would have loved to have seen Embed, Gobert, and Wemba. That's like an enhanced version of what I used to do on like 2K11 when I used to have, or 2K12, when I used to have Lamar Odom, Paugasaw, and Dwight Howard all on one, or as you buy them all on one. It's just an enhanced version of that on steroids.

You're just a psychopath. There's something wrong with you. You weren't in these virtual streets. But no, like this was, this is, this is why they tried so hard for that because if there was ever a time where you were going to go clip the Team USA, you would get their biggest weakness. And now, if it beat is healthy,

this is a formidable, more than formidable Team USA team. They're going to kick some ass this summer. Dude, just overwhelming. Where do you think, though, where, you know, we did touch on it a little bit, but like, even in the future of Team USA, right? Like, do you,

we know Steve Kerr is going to be coaching for the foreseeable future. He has a lot of respect within this group. But we know the biggest thing was after 2004, getting back to the level to where we can win gold medals, Olympics in Olympics out, right? Where we could always compete for that. And we had that ship on our shoulder that we lost in 2004. We've won in 2020.

We've won in 2016. We won in, oh, wait, the balance of power is now in the U.S. What is the motivation now, right? because we've had ebbs and flows. It felt like we got fat on our laurels for a little bit, and then 04 happens. Like, is there still that thirst to continue to win over the next decades of generational cup?

Where do you see international play for Team USA beyond this Olympics? Considering we have a generation going out with Durant, Bron, and Steph. Yeah. And we don't know what we have on an international scale just yet. Who are going to be our dudes going into the next Olympics? after this. Yeah, no, it's a good question. And we are at kind of an inflection point, both in the NBA and on Team USA, obviously, because of just the age of a lot of the stars

who we've been, you know, locked into for the last, you know, decade plus. I do, like, when you say motivation, like, listen, every generation of player, I think, there is a certain amount of national pride in either wanting to, there's two versions of this, right? There's either the, oh, the program slipped and we're the ones to bring it back, like the Redeem team or the original dream team. Or it's the, we have a history of sustained excellence here. This is our sport. This is an American sport. And we want to sustain and validate what our predecessors have done. We want to carry on this legacy. We don't want to be the next ones to slip and have that on us. So I don't, like motivation I don't think is ever an issue.

You're motivated by one of those two things, either getting it back or sustaining what your, your predecessors have done. And there is plenty of talent coming up, right? So, like, I'm glancing at, like, the final roster won't be done for a while yet. But, like, the initial pool of players, bam out of bio, Jared Allen. So there's some of your bigs that we're talking about. Palo Bancaro, so he could be a fixture for years to come on the national team. Scotty Barnes, Desmond Bain, Devin Booker, Michael Bridges, Jalen Brown, Brunson, Butler,

Like on and on, Chet Holmgren is just, you know, starting his run as part of this player pool. Kyrie still got years left. So, you know, there's like there's a good, Jason Tatum, there's a good group there. Are they at the level of, you know, LeBron, Wade, Carmelo, Kobe, whatever, like some of the past groups who've seen? You put out Jared Allen and I was like, that's not quite prime Dwight Howard. I was reading alphabetically, Logan. Okay, all right. I'm just saying, I'm just, I'm just keeping you on your toes, Howard, because that was wild to say.

It went, it's alphabetical out of bio, Alan Van Garo, all right? Just to be really fucking clear here. What's your, what did your beef with Jared Allen? Come on, man. I just said he wasn't always, I just said he wasn't prime Dwight Howard is what I'm saying. You're talking about sinners. I'm sorry. He's not.

All right. I did get around to Chet Holmgren. Thank you. His last name is more toward the middle of the alphabet. when we're reading a list. Okay. By the way, Kauai Lederd,

still in the pool as well, if he's ever healthy. So I just, there's plenty of talent there, but I, we are at a pivot point and it'll be interesting to see. It'll be interesting to see

what the balance is even this summer when they finalized the roster. I don't, I don't worry about Team USA's talent pool. Whether they find the right combination of guys and whether they have like one big, especially that they can hang their hat on,

they will this summer if Joella Bede's healthy. I think that's, you know, There's always going to be questions, but the pool of talent is always there. It was just interesting because it felt like we were at a 2020, there were some, the 2020 Olympics, there were some like 2000 vibes. Now, we got the job done ultimately,

but there were a little hiccups that normally shouldn't happen, you know, like the game against Nigeria, that just shouldn't happen. Shout out to Jomey, who proclaimed that basketball is now a Nigerian sport because of their performance. It's no longer an American, born sport. It is now a Nigerian sport. That is what Jemmy said after that. But if you think about

that, it just feels like what happened after 2000. That's, that's all I'm saying. It's just similar vibes from last Olympics to a previous thing that we have seen before. So that's all that I'm saying. We'll see what happens. There's a lot of talent. We'll see what, what Steve. He's an all right coach. We'll see what he does with, with leading this, this team into the thing. I agree. Grant Hill, right? Like, this is the new, this is the new team at the top here. Grant Hill took over from Jerry Colangelo. Kerr took over from Pop, and like, you know, this is, this is the first major change we've had at that level of the program in a while, especially at the top, the Colangelo to Grant Hill thing.

So recruiting the best American players is a big part of this, getting buy-in, all of that, finding the right combination. It's an interesting time. How was it changed, though? The Olympics, how was it changed from the time you covered the league and just how in terms of now in terms of how we approach it, right? Because I felt like in 92 it was like, we're going to get the best players possible. We already have a high ceiling. Let's go get this bread. Let's go get this gold.

Let's have fun in Spain. And then now it feels like, you know, I think over in the 2000s, it really started to shift. Where do you see it now as opposed to how. it feels like more a year-round thing, even just being around Steve. He always talks about the Olympics. They always seem to have an eye on what's going on with roster changes and things like that.

It doesn't seem like it's, hey guys, come meet us in Salt Lake City or come meet us in Colorado Springs and then let's just work out for two weeks and figure it out. Yeah, no, look, way back when, like when the dream team first was formed, the second the dream team was formed,

like, you just knew, like, there's no question, what's going to happen when these guys actually get on the court. Opposing teams were either cowering or asking them for autographs. It was as big of a gap. It was almost obscene. It's like when you walk into a press room. Stop.

So at that point, it was literally just roll the ball out. They could do anything. I mean, I'm sure they practiced. They didn't need to practice. All they had to do was be in like some measure of basketball shape and they were just going to crush everybody. that's not the world we live in anymore. And because of that, and because the team crashed in Burden 04,

that's when they changed up the whole program. That's when Jerry Colangelo became Team USA czar. That's when they started requiring these multi-year commitments from U.S. players because they realized that, among other problems, the U.S. was at a disadvantage because these guys had not played together multiple years. So now you get a group together that has a multi-year commitment. hopefully some semblance of them play in the off years at the World Cup, which used to be the world championships and now it's the World Cup.

They want to have the consistency so that guys can build at least some semblance of chemistry because the other national teams have that. And because they have a smaller pool of players. It's going to be the same guys for years and years play together. So they changed everything. The things that's changed are like the structure of the program and the expectation. The expectation was at a certain point, we've got the best talent. We'll just walk out there and take gold almost by almost automatically.

Now it's understood that they have to work for it. They're going to be challenged. And so that's the big thing. That's a good thing. That's a good thing. Let's take a quick break. We're going to talk about our real one of the week. LeBron James on the next segment.

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Fandul.com. And we are back. Today's real one of the week is presented by State Farm. When you get a new car or a new home, your first reaction might be to say things like, oh, yeah, or I can't believe it. What you'd really want to say is that you know you're covered with the help you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Like that ad read?

That was pretty cool. I was off the dome right there. That was nice. That was smart. Thanks, bud. So our real one of the week presented by State Farm is LeBron James because LeBron James. because LeBron James isn't satisfied with dominating the sport of basketball. He wants to take all of our jobs.

He now wants to dominate in the world of podcasting. And he had his first episode of his podcast with J.J. Reddick. Mind the game. I'm not going to lie, Howard. I came in with the journalistic skepticism. Like, what is he doing? What's going on? How is this going to be?

and you know like you kind of hate a little bit when you start you're like eh whatever and then i think by minute seven i was like minute seven of them actually talking to each other was a very long intro that i just skipped by like sorry jj don't care let's get to the shits but then when i got to the pod and like i was like okay this is a solid effort this was this was solid this was good a good first episode was kind of triggering because it felt like a couple of the up the first real ones episode episodes back when it was Monday Ringer NBA show at me and Raja, just working out the kinks and stuff.

But I think there were some educational moments. What did you think of the pot? How many bottles of wine did you and Raja go through compared to LeBron and JJ? I think we did wine one episode of real ones and it didn't work out. It may or may not be out there. The real ones, you guys go out. You guys go both fine. No, that didn't work out. That was the real ones after dark early in the real ones archives. At the hour we tape, I would think breaking out the bottles of red would probably be ill-advised for us. No, this was, this was during the, this was during like the ruins after dark. This was like to keep Raj up.

Okay. This was after during the playoffs. Nice. Well, in that case, it's almost like you kind of need it at that hour. Like, first of all, you mentioned like LeBron coming for all of our jobs. I made that joke to JJ like 10 years ago. So JJ's podcasting career, I think started it. I think he was at Yahoo.

I think it was with Yahoo at the time. And I remember what he first started doing it. And he had been on with Zach Lowe a bunch. And then he was so good as a guest. And then he goes, Zach went on his pot. I remember listening to one day and thinking like they're almost interviewing each other. And I'm realizing, oh, JJ is really good at this. It's not just talking about the game.

He can do the interview. He's like a really good host. And I remember he was like Clippers at the time, I think. And I had said to him one day, like, dude, it's unfair that you can be this great at basketball where you are you are making a fortune obviously and those of us who cover the game if we're lucky we'll be able to write about the game or talk about the game or whatever and you are able to do this in our space better than most of us can he's he's really good at this and no no surprise at all that when jj retired he ends up on ESPN and he's you know obviously

got his own podcast he's doing the thing with lebron now he just keeps branching out i wonder how much time he's going to have to devote to all this eventually but that's a jj problem. I was a skeptical of this one only in that. I think JJ already does a lot of breakdowns on his own pod and a certain amount on ESPN when he's not having to have manufactured debates about nonsense. Get your shit off, Howard. Get your shit off Howard. That's not on him. That's the whole other thing. That's what they do. That's just, it's what they do. They manufacture debates about nonsense. But JJ has always tried to balance like the broader narrative discussions and debates and who's the greatest and blah, blah, blah, blah, with the fundamentals.

LeBron, as you and I both know, throughout his career, if you, in a middle of a press conference, say, LeBron, could you tell us what happened on that out of bounds play with 3.2 seconds to go when you found, you know, JR, like, LeBron will go chapter and verse. And if you ask about something that happened in the same situation five years earlier, he'll go chapter and burst, because LeBron's got one of those just incredible memories where he can just break it down, play by play minute by minute, pass by past, possession by possession. So the combination of the two of them, actually, I thought had great promise. I just wasn't sure how interesting it would be, right? It's a podcast. If you get too granular on a podcast that's requiring X's and O's knowledge,

and you're now referring to like floppy sets and horns, chest, thumb down, thumb up, you might lose people. It may not be engaging enough for the general audience. You and I talked about this with Raja a few weeks ago on the pod about the balance, because again, sparked by a JJ rant on ESPN, the balance between talking about all the other things, the dreaded narratives versus the game. So I was actually really encouraged, Logan. I thought this was a great show. I listened to the whole thing. Two things.

One, there are moments where it gets a little too dense when they're talking and they're getting really geeky about the basketball stuff. And if you're a big time basketball nerd, you're probably following along just fine. And you can visualize what they're talking about where players are on a given set. And there are times where it's like, whoa, you guys lost me. But there was other stuff too. They talked about like teammates who can't flip the court. You draw it up one way and you're like, no, no, now we're going to do it on the other side.

And the guy can't transpose it in his head and he doesn't know what to do now. They talked about how that fits into what we talk about is basketball IQ. guys who can't remember plays, period. So there's like some fun kind of team dynamic stuff that I think worked in too. And one other thing, I thought this was really smart. If you go to the YouTube version of, now I'm like, I feel like I'm promoting the show,

but like if you go to the YouTube version of their pod and you hear it on the audio part of the pod, JJ sits down facing the camera with a, like a notebook, clipboard, notebook, something. Clipboard is a really hard word to remember. Clipboard. It is, it is hand with a pen and, and, and paper showing like the half court, mapping it out.

So if you're listening on the, uh, just to the audio version, you're not quite sure what he's talking about, but if you go to the YouTube version, you can actually see it. And so he says on this, on this show today, you'll hear LeBron and I talk about floppy. This is what it looks like. You'll hear us talk about horn's chest. This is what it looks like. I think that's great. I don't know that that's for everybody.

Or honestly, though, that, that it's sustainable. right or that it's sustainable what there were a couple of things that i felt about this one like this was a standalone episode what an education this is for like basketball nerds right just to hear lebron talk about and jj like j j j j was a successful NBA player who was a really smart about the game it knows about the game right yeah but coached by legends but like if you were just to hear it was just it was like i think it was like we're just at the we're just looking at the mountain top about like two people talking basketball at a very high level. Like one of the greatest ever do it.

Bron, if you listen to him even, like I've had the, I've had the luxury of being able to hear him talk basketball on a, in a very close level, just impressors and things like that have been lucky enough to do that. He's really smart. And you can tell what you're just like, oh, okay, he is LeBron James for a reason because he will tell you in a way that you will understand about the game of basketball. That was great. But the other thing that I was thinking about, like, how committed is LeBron going to be to this?

Right? Because it's one thing to say, and there's a really good article that you guys should check out in the Wall Street Journal, just talking about LeBron's ambitions beyond basketball because he's getting close to the end of his career. You know, there's a lot of shaving cream and a lot of like things like that that he's that he's getting into, right? You guys can read the article for that. But it just seems like he's trying to figure out what's. next and whatever is going to be because if you know LeBron, you know more than anything, he just wants to be a part of the conversation, whether it is talking about social justice issues, whether it is talking about the game itself.

That's why he's always on Twitter. He's always on Instagram. He even like in his later career when he used to say, no, I'm not going on these things for the playoffs. Now he's starting to do that. Now he's starting to really just be in the. know of things. And I think, especially with the way social media is going now, we don't know where it's going to be in a few years. I think this is a way for LeBron to continue to be a part of

the conversation and for not only his personal urge, but honestly also the businesses that he's about to pursue, the business interests, he's about to pursue post-career. So I am curious to see, because podcasting's hard, man. It's one thing to say, hey, I'm going to do this. And it's going to be successful and actually make it happen. Right. Like, there were times when I watched their first episode and I thought about me and Roger, right? Like, just the, you know, you're trying to find chemistry on the fly.

Like, I don't know how close JJ and LeBron were before this, but it did seem like they were still trying to get to know each other. Like, they had talks and passing and things like that. But to get to know someone as a podcaster on the fly every couple of days or however long you do it, it takes. takes repetition, you know, it takes a lot of these things. It takes actually getting to know someone to continue that chemistry. And do they do this for, is it a limited series? Do they do this all of next season? Because that'll be pretty cool, especially if LeBron says, I'm going to

retire, right? Like, that would be pretty cool to see. I just, I have a lot of questions, but this was a really good first start, even if it was like, there were some things that I would want to see from them, like, I don't know, like things that my up a producer say, get to the subject faster. What else do they say? Establish what you're talking about beforehand, right? It just seemed like it was a very good, free-flowing conversation that was edited as opposed to a conversation that could be, you know, that they're actually doing day in and day out.

And that'll come with reps, but I'm curious to see how long or how much LeBron's going to do this or be committed to it. The advantage they have is that JJ's already been doing this for whatever, seven, eight years. So, like, JJ already has gotten a ton of reps. And he's co-hosted with Tommy Alter. And he's, you know, he's, he's done guests. He's done monologues. He's done, you know, clearly JJ knows how to, like, frame and outline an episode and

have the segways and make a flow. Like, Jade is a professional at this already, right? Like, we think of this as like, oh, it's two players. But Jake has been retired for a few years and he started his broadcasting career, if you want to say podcasting is part of that, which it is. He started that while he was still playing. So LeBron does not have to carry it. LeBron can just come in with all of his basketball IQ and his knowledge and experiences

and his ability to talk about the game at a really simultaneously sophisticated, but I think breezy level most of the time. Again, it got a little too granular at times. But LeBron can, like, he's still playing, right? He's got other responsibilities. But JJ can hop on a plane, drop into L.A. or wherever LeBron is at that time. I assume they're going to want to do it in the same student. It's probably at LeBron's, at Spring Hill Studios or whatever.

But like, JJ can just drop in because he's not on a playing schedule anymore. And I assume they've already worked out how they're going to do that. The interesting thing is this. Like, JJ clearly had aspirations of being a broadcaster post career. And he's doing that. LeBron has aspirations of just building a media empire, which he's kind of already... Dominating the world is, I think, what LeBron wants to do. And then eventually owning an NBA team and who knows what else.

And he talked about that. He alluded to wanting to own a team as well during the podcast because he was talking about like who he would hire or something. He was making a run for Sam Presti on the low. But I'll just say this. Like LeBron doesn't need to do this, right? Like LeBron, like every other, like think about Michael Jordan. We never hear from Michael.

And we rarely have since he retired. LeBron, if he wanted to, could just walk away. Now, you point out like he enjoys this. He enjoys being in the conversation and sometimes maybe being the center of the conversation. But like, I'll look at it. it through a more charitable lens for a moment here. LeBron fucking loves the sport and loves talking about the sport and loves

breaking down the sport. And to the extent that he wants to share his knowledge on it, you can say it's self-aggrandizing if you want and look at it through a cynical prism and I get it, but he doesn't need the money. He doesn't, whatever they're going to, like they're not, I don't think they even have ads on that

show yet. Like, whatever they're going to get from LeBron doesn't need it. Redacted, redacted. No. Like the food delivery, right? Yeah. Okay.

Bleep all that out. No free promo, Kai. LeBron doesn't need these commissions. Like, he's fine. He's doing this because he loves the game and loves talking about the game, loves breaking down the game with somebody like JJ who can talk at LeBron's level about the game, right?

And so I think that's really cool. He doesn't have to do this. He could just fade away. He doesn't have to do it while he's playing. And when he's retired, He could just fade away if he wanted to. I think it's cool that he wants to share that and educate us. And it goes back to, again, I hate to keep referencing this,

but we talked on this pot a few weeks ago about, you know, JJ's rant about, is it our job to teach, or is it player's job to teach people the game? Well, yeah, to some extent it is. And that's what you as a former player and LeBron as a current player are now doing. And yeah, I think it's cool that they do that. We will all be smarter because of it. The question that I have, though, is where we are with player pods, right?

Because if LeBron James get into the space, we have reached a fever peak. It's, I don't think we can get any higher than this, right? Like, I feel like with the business, there is going to be some level of contraction. I just think that it is. I think it's oversaturated in the way that it is, it is just being there. Every time you see there's a player pod, there's a thing. And honestly, I think that when it started happening, there was a level of hate from journalists, because, I mean, let's be honest,

like they're competing for the same guests that we're trying to compete for, right? They're competing for, also, they are able to have these conversations and some of the time not have accountability towards the questions that they're asking, right? So we had our beefs with player pods and things like that, but it is here to stay.

And I think that they've also carved up their own lane separate of what we do, right? So where do you see it going forward in the next few years, right? because there's only so many, there's only so many positives there can be, there's only so much attention span, there's also so many places that are going to continue to pay for this type of content going forward, just as the media landscape figures out what it is.

What do you think we are right now? I don't know. I mean, it's like with everything else, right? It's like how many streaming services can there be? How many different movies or prestige TV series can we all possibly watch? How many different substacks can we subscribe to? I just found out about somebody else. No, like there's too many NBA substacks now for me to subscribe to and most of them are being written by friends and I want to support them all.

Substack, please create a bundle at some point so I can pay one fee to get multiple of your authors. Anyway, it's like everything else. Every space in media is crowded and there will be a sorting out process to your point, Logan. I don't worry about, I was never one who had any resentment about all players moving into this space. I mean, I joked with JJ about it years ago. when Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes started all the smoke, I was like, man, these guys are really freaking good at this. I like the show.

I'm glad they're in the space because they bring a perspective that you and I cannot. And I've often said this, whether it's those guys or JJ or whoever else, who's a former player, as former players, they can bring on the same guess that you and I would, Logan, and we're not going to get the same level of candor. Because there's a comfort level when you're talking to another player that is different than talking to a media member. And that benefits all of us who follow basketball because we're now hearing a more candid version of this.

So I have no problem with it whatsoever. But yeah, we are getting glutted in the NBA podcast space. And I think just the player segment of it or former player segment of it is glutted. Like you're not possibly listening to, you know, Stack him at Barnes and Gilbert Arenas and JJ and Jeff Teague. Is he still doing his? He's still doing his, yes. Like, there's, you know, and Pat Beverly's and DeMar de Rosens. Like, there's just on and on.

Like, but maybe there's enough room for, you know, everybody to have their own little niche. I do think if there's anything I've hopefully learned, it's like you have to, you have to distinguish yourself. You have to do something distinctive, not distinguish yourself, but do something distinctive, right? You got to have a different approach that makes your pod feel necessary when somebody else is doing a lot of the same stuff. I mean, I'll just say it. Like, there is a glut of NBA podcasts that are just like two dudes doing punditry, right? We don't need any more takes.

The world's got enough takes. So I think the way to be distinctive in the space now is either you got to be great at doing interviews or you've got to bring some different perspective or maybe you're great at breaking down the X's and O's or the analytics or whatever. So I feel like everybody is. Or maybe you're just hilarious like Jeff T. Maybe you're just hilarious. Or maybe you're just better.

If you're going to do punditry, if you're going to do take, you better damn will be better at it than everybody else who's already doing it because we got enough takes to last like 50 fucking lifetimes someone's man somebody yo you be pop it off howard i love it you be getting these like yo it's it's raja has his rant kai put in the notes we need the howard rants we need it we need the theme music we need all of that we need it we need the we need the f the swear bomb for howard we need all of it kai kirm get on it we're locked in but no it's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting man. I just thought that this was just an inflection point with LeBron.

Venturing the podcast just in general because it's like, it was like the biggest 180 that you could think of. It really just screamed, I need to be a part of this conversation. I need to do this. Also, it's a great medium, again, for him to sub people and also say, hey, like, I want to trade for this person. Hey, Sam Presti. When I have a Vegas team, I love what you do in Oklahoma. It's legal tampering, right? Only LeBron can do that. No doubt. No doubt.

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