The Ringer NBA Show - Joel Embiid Leads the Sixers to a Game 3 Win & What is the State of NBA Villains? | The Answer

Episode Date: June 12, 2021

Seerat is joined by The Ringer's Rob Mahoney to begin to eulogize the Nuggets after the Suns take a 3-0 series lead (2:25) and discuss Joel Embiid and the 76ers commanding game 3 win over the Hawks (11:46). Then Chris and Seerat are joined by Logan Murdock to discuss the role of villains in the NBA (36:12). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Guests: Rob Mahoney and Logan Murdock Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if the Len Bias story hosted by Jordan Ritter-Kahn is the Ringer's latest narrative podcast. You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Lynn Bias, 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, this is What If, the Lynn Bias story. I'm Jordan Ritter-Con.

Hello and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined as always by Siritt Soie. What's up, Syriot? Hey, how's it going, Chris? We're going to do that thing where we throw it to you and Rob Mahoney because you're going to be reacting to Sixers, Hawks, and Sons Nuggets after the games. But we're also going to have Logan Murdoch on today to talk about the state of NBA villainy.

All of that coming up right after this. All right, and we're back. 13 hours into the future approximately. I don't feel any wiser. Rob, do you feel wiser? I mean, we crack time travel, so we must be at least a little wiser, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a simulation,

but that's fine. I think, so you're, first of all, thank you for joining me today at 10.50. Oh, sure. PM, mountain time. The best time zone. Who calls this in mountain time? I do.

Just keep going. We're just going to blow past that. I do. I do. And it's, by the way, the best time zone to watch sports in. Five o'clock, everything's starting with the NBA. Perfect. Four o'clock, it just, it's too fast.

Like, it feels like it's rushing on you. Anything else, you just, you don't want to be up that late for the late games. It's a good time zone to watch sports in. I think everybody working in sports media should move. to the mountain time zone, which is still in the playoffs, despite the fact that the Denver Nuggets just got knocked out yet, but they just took a 3-0 deficit to the Sons. The Sons are just a better team.

The Sons are just a better team. It turns out. Yeah, it turns out. What are your initial thoughts on this game? I mean, I think there was a degree of inevitability here, right? just in terms of the nuggets running out of steam offensively, especially with the way, you know, if you're going to surround Yokic and put so many bodies in his way,

crowd the paint the way that the sons have, eventually you're going to have to pay the price for starting Austin Rivers and Faku Campaso. That's just basketball logic. And the only question was, can the nuggets eke out some wins? Can they, you know, fake enough of the other basketball stuff to sneak by? And the answer seems to be a pretty definitive no at this point.

it really did kind of feel like that right like you're just saying we'll just keep putting this reg tag group around yokic and see what will happen um and that's by the way that's kind of what the nugget season has been and that's why i voted i voted for him to be MVP it's very strange we are now having one of those nuggets you know this is basically going to be a eulogy for the nuggets and it's also the day that yokch got his MVP trophy um but he had a monster game. 32, 20 rebounds and 10 assists. But it just wasn't enough. Just wasn't enough. They got good stuff from Monte Morris and they got to live from Will Barton and it just didn't matter really. What did you think of Aaron Gordon today? Oh, yeah. I mean, this isn't the

Aaron Gordon they traded for in the sense that he's been forced into a totally different role, one that's as we've seen from his magic career, not super comfortable for him. I still would have loved to see him in the ideal healthy version of the Nuggets. That version of Aaron Gordon is someone I'm interested in watching. Unfortunately, with the long-term nature

of Jamal Murray's injury, I don't know when we see that version of the Nuggets again. But in this case, in this kind of role, he's kind of set up for disappointment. He is not a go-to score. He's not even a guy who works mismatches super well. You know, he can body smaller guys inside sometimes, but his offense was ugly. And, you know, they asked him to do a lot defensively.

I think we can probably close the case on whether he can guard Devin Booker or not. But either way, he was kind of set up to fail there, and his own game sets him up to fail a bit off offensively in this kind of role. Yeah, it really sucks that Jamal Marie got her. And to your point, yeah, we just don't know when we're going to see them again. And it sucks because this team really had a chance to be something special this season. Aaron Gordon in the role that he was supposed to be in would have been the perfect guy for this team

and you could really feel them missing a guy like Jamal down the stretch here when the Austin River's magic runs out and Michael Porter Jr., who seems like he was moving around better today than he was in game two, but still didn't have a great night in terms of scoring, came out of the gate pretty aggressive and then we just didn't really get much from him. Yeah, you could just, you felt it.

You felt the lack of Murray there. And it just honestly really sucks because this could have been a really good series. I actually think that if these teams were to be healthy and ever face off, this could be super exciting. But yeah, moving on, man. The suns. Well, while we're eulogizing?

I mean, were you in the rapidly, developing cult that I consider myself a member of that was about ready to put the Nuggets in as their finals pick for the Western Conference before Murray's injury. I was, I mean, I was right there. I was right there. I was really close. I was really close. The Gordon Trade was just so perfect for them.

But, I mean, I also think that there are limitations that this kind of exposed in like some of his decision making that I hope, I don't know, I think maybe this playoff series is actually a good thing. for him. He looked very frustrated towards the end there, but actually getting this deep and being in a situation where, like, you care and, you know, you didn't live up to something is sometimes, is sometimes good. Yeah, just, I think needed to see a little bit more. I think going to need to see a little bit more from him defensively, to be honest for, I don't know. I don't know. I'm like, am I wrong for this to, like, put some doubts in my mind about the,

the Aaron Gordon long-term fit in Denver in terms of like him being the all-out sort of like Draymond-esque defensive guy that they need him to be because he just wasn't that on any level just you know aside from the offense which is its own story um I don't know I just didn't see it didn't see like defensive IQ at least well I mean this was always going to be a team even in its fully healthy version that was going to have to overwhelm you with offense and you just lose so much of that stability and not only that but then you are giving up easier looks going the other way where you're cross-match where you're at a disadvantage where guys like gordon again are set up to handle matchups that do not suit them terribly

well so he's he's not draymond he's never going to be draymond we really need to stop comparing anyone to draymond to be honest with yeah who would ever do that I can't imagine. That's such a crazy premise for a piece. Who would ever go that far? I know. I don't know. I mean, just media these days.

Got to exaggerate. Anyway, okay, moving on. Let's talk sons. Yeah. This is this team going on the NBA finals? It sure kind of seems that way, doesn't it? It kind of looks like it. It kind of looks like it.

So everything is peaking for them at the exact perfect time. You've got Cameron Payne finding. new depths to his driving game every single day just like figuring out like oh like yeah this off kilter angle works and like i'm actually oh i'm quicker than this guy i'm quicker than this guy i can just keep keep it moving they're still not blocking me um i i'm first of all it's just it's always a joy to just watch a player kind of find that as as they're as they're like going into a series um but yeah that that mckeill bridges it is just i i feel like you're always just going to know what going to get with him.

He'll either make shots or miss shots, but just, I think, fantastic job defensively, like this entire series, perfect double-teaming, Aiton. Aiton shouldn't have been able to hang. Aiton shouldn't have been able to hang. Aitn was way too young for this series. This is the series that Yokic was supposed to manhandle Ait, and then Aiton was supposed to come back next year and then be the guy that can handle Yokic, you know? Like, he just skipped a step.

worked out. It's usually just how it works for big men, you know? And really for anybody, right? Like, he should have gotten schooled. This is one of the most skilled big men. He just took home the MVP trophy. And granted, there were some times, like, I think that third, I think Yokish just decided, yeah, I can do this for a stretch. But throughout that series, it didn't really, it wasn't really the case. And Yokic also said that Aiton is a guy that, like, actually gives him problems to which Aiton was like, damn, he said that. That's lit. Um, Which, watch DeAndre Aden press conferences. There's a light, he's a lay.

But seriously, just incredibly impressed with his defensive leap this season. Like, just like to the Gordon point from before, I just, I think being able to just process the amount of information that he had to process to get to the point where he could actually, like, be a pretty effective post-defender and help defender for a team that is probably going to the Western Conference finals when that was not really a priority in his career before is just not a thing that's supposed to happen. Just kudos to him, man.

Well, especially, you know, as we mentioned, Yokic put up great numbers in this game. But those numbers are kind of predicated on the way they're playing him. You know, like, and putting Aiton in that position is the first line of defense without any outright double teaming, which is the, you know, the crucial difference between, say, this and the other game we're going to talk about tonight and the positions that puts your whole team in as a result,

you're going to live with Yokic being one of the best players in the league for being a dominant score when he needs like he was hunting hook shots at points in this game which is I mean awesome to see from an NBA fan perspective but also there are there are limited returns when your entire offense is revolving around that engine and no one else in the starting lineup can score so that's that's kind of where we end up as a result of Aiton being able to stand up one on one against Yokic with again guys shading in his direction but not bailing him out schematically in a way that you might expect an opponent of the Nuggets to do given the fact that no one else in their team is presenting that much of a threat right now. Yeah, yeah, I mean, let's talk about Embed. Let's talk about Embedd. Oh, we're just jumping straight over. We can go back and forth.

Let's talk about Embed because you do get to a very crucial difference here because it seems like for the most part, the Sunder really only bringing a double when Yokic got into post position and was also starting to back down Aiton, usually I think, like, after he started dribbling or started making some sort of move. That was not the case in this game. Sixers' Hawks, we had, well, like, I'll let you take it away. I'll let you take it away.

Well, let me ask you this. What is your experience watching Joelle and Bede right now? Because I'm getting like a little bit of awe, some bewilderment that he's out there at all, given his injury and then moments of just abject terror when he falls face first into the paint several times a game. Okay, so that fall and then him deciding on the next play that he was going to go for not just going to cut to the rim for like a nice little dunk because he got left, you know, he just had a lane in the center, but because he just wanted to and he just wanted to slam it. And then I felt like he wanted to scream and then he just didn't because I think he realized

that like that was actually a very painful thing to go through for his knee. And then he was wincing on the way down. And I was like, please do not play with fire right now, Ben. Like I get it. Like you're probably extremely upset. You probably want to control this. I'm really glad he was able to play the rest of the game. Played really well the rest of the game. Still sort of trying to understand how somebody can play with the knee meniscus tear, which also just calls into question the whole experience I just had right now watching that happen. I don't know. Like, health-wise, like, who the hell knows, right? Oh, you're just losing your grip on reality. Exactly. Like, you're just, oh, I mean, always, right? But just watching that happen, I was just like, sure,

and then he just stays in the game, and then it's a blowout, and he's still in the game with two minutes laps, which always upsets me in any scenario, but in a Joelle Embed already has a torn meniscus, which we should be talking about every sentence. And this game is over, and he's already kind of like tweaked it in this game. Like, get him out of there. Anyway, like, maybe, like, whatever. Like, let's hope that goes well. Don't love everybody in that situation playing with fire.

But just an amazing performance by him. Both of these games were persistently close. in ways that were kind of annoying in the sense that, you know, the Sixers should have had that game wrapped up in a way that Embed could have watched the last eight minutes from the bench and they just could not get to that point. And then in the other game, it seemed like the Nuggets were constantly battling their way back from a 12-point deficit and it was just yo-yoing all night long. But the Suns just were in complete control of every single run that the Nuggets made.

I mean, the Embed stuff is just scary at this point. I'm watching every dismount, every wince, every grab at that knee, just hoping it holds up. But it doesn't feel great. He had an amazing game. And it did not feel great to watch it because of the potential fallout that could come from it. I will say, though, like when it comes to his mobility, though, he seems to be moving a lot better now than he was at the beginning of the series. Like, do you see that at all? Or is that?

Because I just feel like he's been able to contain Trey a lot more than he was. I think that's part of what's scary, though, is like the way he, you know, like, for example, defensively, he completely has iced the Clint Capella lob out of this series, just by being huge, by being in exactly the right spots, and by edging in on Trey enough to take away that passing lane. And we saw him, like, leaping to deflect some lobs in ways that just make me super nervous. But his impact on this game defensively was so huge. Yeah, that's what makes him so good.

Like that is what I wanted to talk about with this game. It's just like he, I mean, the Sixers basically just said, yeah, we're going to guard the Trey Young, any Trey Young pick and roll, we're pretty much just going to guard with two guys. We'll switch our coverages for who the two guys are, but it's going to be two guys. We might hedge, we might trap for a second, we might switch, but it's going to be two guys. So with Embed, it was always, anybody that's with Embedit, it's always going to be. going to be a drop. He's a little bit higher now. And as, you know, you just expect that to happen as a series goes on, it's Trey Young.

You get used to it. But once it became like two people have to guard two people, M.B. just started manipulating the hell out of the game. Like he would just, he would pull back and then like just try to, like, steal or, you know, block a tray floater. Or he would like make it look like he was going for the floater. and then just pull back for those lobs like you talked about. It was just like an all-out clinic in terms of like defensive manipulation,

how to get somebody to do exactly what you want them to do. It was just amazing. And similar to the other game, it's a great example of how a star on the other team can put up big numbers but still feel controlled within the context of the game. Like Yolkich went off. Trey Young, again, had a good game by the box score, but because you're guarding him with two guys

and because the defense looks so different against him than say it did, you know, the busted pick and roll coverage we saw that the Knicks try to throw at him. It's just a different world when Ben Simmons and Matisse Thibble are chasing you over screens and Embed is the guy who's meeting you. And you don't have to worry about kicking out to shooters because they're all covered. You don't have to bring that third guy into the pick and roll to defend it at all. Yeah, yeah. So like one of the things that has been, I don't know, I don't want to say it's bothering me, I guess.

but, like, one of the observations I've had about the playoffs so far is just how much the physicality that refs allow is what's determining... I don't want to say the results of some of these games, because, I mean, that just, you know, there's a lot to a game, but at least the tenor of them. Like, the difference between this game and any other game in this series was just, like, the first half, the refs just weren't calling, it when Trey Young stopped and tried to get bumped when he was coming off of a pick and roll.

Or like if, you know, Thibel got a hand on one of his floaters, that wasn't a foul. And that kind of changed as the game went on. But like, I don't know. It's just like increasingly, like you saw this happen in the Memphis series with Donvin Mitchell just baiting Dylan Brooks. And then you also saw it happen in the Nets series where, you know, the Bucks got home and then immediately, like, PJ Tucker can just play much more aggressive defense on KD, and that kind of just changed that whole game.

And the same thing kind of happened here. Granted, you don't have the same home road dynamics, but the reps were just allowing more, and it just kind of allowed the Sixers to survive Trey Young. And it's honestly, like, it's not really on the reps. It's kind of just a logical extreme of what happens when a whole bunch of players just are so skilled that defenders just have to.

be aggressive. Like, if you're Matisse Sible, there is, there are very few ways for you to defend Trey Young without just falling for pump fakes, especially when it's going to be like the third head fake, right? Like, that's just kind of, that's just kind of how it goes. And like, with Mitchell, you've got him like just pausing after pull-ups. With KD, you've got any number of tricks hardened. We don't even have to talk about it.

Like, players just are putting refs into situations where it's just on them. to decide what happens more often than ever. And I just feel the impact of reffing more than I ever have before. Yeah, I mean, this did not feel like a terribly well-officiated game, just from a consistency standpoint, which is exactly what you're talking about. You could tell a moment at which the game shifted between, you know, Tray Young not getting those calls and all of a sudden he could. I don't know why that changed.

I don't know what, you know, switch was flipped there, but one certainly was. Ooh. No. Which was it? Where do they keep it? Who presses the button? It's a great question. I wish I could find it.

But to your point, like there wasn't a home road dynamic in this one, but it was a young team, veteran team thing. Where the Sixers, like, they're a team who has been in these positions before who aren't, you know, even though Joel and Beat is a guy who bates for some of the same kinds of fouls that Shrey Young might, they just have more ways to sustain because they have more guys who have been in the playoffs. and the Hawks, this was a game where they felt their inexperience a little bit. Yeah, there's also a bit of a time and score thing too. Like, I think it's always smart to go, especially like when you need it. Like, yeah, go get yourself a foul. But like, if that's the tenor of the game and you need it, like, guess the rim. And not to say that, by the way, like, I think, you know, it wasn't really reffing and all that stuff with Trey tonight.

What did you think it was? in terms of what held the Hawks back in general. Yeah. Their defense. Like they're going to have to figure out a way to get stops because now this is basically what seven of eight quarters where they've just been bleeding points to the Sixers, that's not going to work.

And I understand how difficult it is to match up with MB and control that and also deal with all the spacing that they create and present and try to contain Ben Simmons in transition, all that stuff. It's not an easy job, but that's the job you get. if you're in this kind of series. And right now, their rotations just are not there. Like, they are not there, especially in a series where Clint Capella is going to be dragged out to the perimeter a lot because he has to hang with him beat if that's what his

matchup's going to be. And so, you know, they need more out of John Collins in terms of as a rotational defender. They don't have DeAndre Hunter right now. That feels like a pretty big loss because that's a guy who naturally, you know, can not only lock down against bigger forwards, but rotates really smoothly in a team concept. They just, they feel so disjointed, so disconnected in terms of what they're trying to do defensively. And then you flash to the other side of the ball where Simmons and Embed specifically in handling that Tray Young action feel totally dialed into what the other person is doing. You just don't get that from the Hawks at all right now.

Yeah, that's true. You actually, you can, you can very much feel that duality though. But man, like, I don't really know what you do against Embedde right now. It's going to keep having games like this where like Capella, man, Capella is working. like he is trying to push and beat out as far as he can there were there were some post catches out by the three point line

and then like the moment he catches it it's just over for him like and they bring the double right away they bring the double like pretty much on the catch like there was a possession where um where embied was was posting up on the same side of the floor

as Ben Simmons's end the eyeball which you just always love always a good time um immediately gets triple-teamed, of course, and then ends up just drawing a foul. Like, he just, he ended up just spinning away from the double, didn't see that Solomon Hill was, like, behind him, triple-teaming him. But Solomon Hill was in his landing space, and it ended up into, just in points, in free points. And that's just, like, what do you do? that's not going to happen every single time,

but he's just like, he has presented an impossible question, honestly. Like, I just don't know what you do with him if he's healthy because he's also in this mode right now where he knows that, and I think he's been to the playoffs enough times. And it's the same thing with defense, too, like that you brought up where the Sixers just feel like they are getting down to business.

Like, they came out. in that second half, a bunch of Ben Simmons post-ups. He was already playing a reasonably good game. He was getting out in transition. And then he just turns on the Jets after that. Like he spins John Collins once, and then he gets Seth Curry for a three. He's out in transition.

The defense is incredible. They're getting in the passing lanes. They're not letting the hawks shoot any threes. It's just, I don't know, like they're really, yeah, man, they're on a chain. They look, they look, special right now. Like, I'm really, really excited to see what this team can do. Well, and it's scary to think that this is probably the most perimeter oriented game we're

going to see from Embed. And that was kind of part of what made me worried about his knee for a minute was I was wondering like, why, like, I know these double teams are coming early, but why are so many of his possessions starting at the three point line? Like, why is he not fighting for position? Why is he not going inside more? And then he'll spin on somebody and drive in and dunk. Or he'll go on the other end and blow up a lob. And he just looks totally athletic and fine. And so, like, you're, again, this is a super perimeter oriented game from Embed. And he still put up a 27 point near triple double. They still outscored the Hawks by 16 points when he was on the floor. That's an unwinnable formula, if you're Atlanta. And it really, I mean, there are kind of three things that need to click,

uh, or that did click in this game that you need to start to take away from if you're, if you're the Hawks. I mean, Embed being at the level he was, there are some days where he was, there are some days where he won't draw fouls as well, where he won't hit shots as well. Those are going to be increasingly rare because he's an incredibly talented player, but that's a possibility. But if he's clicking like this, you have to hope that Tobias Harris isn't because he's kind of the fail safe for so much other half-court offense. It's like, can Tobias Harris get to his spots, hit little pull-up jumpers, hit runners, hit little post-ups? He played a great game. That's another matchup that Hunter changes. Oh, absolutely. And so if that's also working, then you're really hoping for door number three,

the nuclear option, which is just have to hope that the Sixers bench minutes absolutely suck. And this was the game where they were going so well, Dwight Howard took a three-pointer. So that's kind of, that kind of sums it all up for you. Dwight Howard took a three-pointer, missed a three-pointer, and it went to George Hill for a three. That is how well things were going. It didn't even matter that Dwight did that. I love, by the way, how much Dwight just, like, really wants to shoot three. It's like, you can tell that any time that he knows that he won't get benched for it,

it's kind of going up. that's when it really started like he he felt that this was a blowout even though it was probably a 15 point game at that point well it was one of those 15 point games just like the other game which we'll get back to that just it didn't really feel like a 15 point game um it kind of felt like philly had had a grasp on it pretty much throughout the game and i think the perimeter thing is interesting from joel because he is kind of a perimeter-oriented, not perimeter-oriented player, but he is like kind of a perimeter-based game.

Yeah. Big face-up guy, obviously, like, just has incredible touch with, like, the short jumpers and stuff. And him being out there a little bit more, and that getting Simmons involved a little bit more in the paint, just made me feel a little bit better about the Simmons-M-B thing as well. Like that, and that ultimately, I mean, this was, I want to, like, I do need to tone down a little bit here.

The Sixers had a perfect game. Like, they're not going to, they're not going to do this very often. So by perfect, do you mean, do you mean, like, the best case scenario of the Sixers? Or do you mean the most Sixersish game possible? No, like, the best case scenario, within the context of, like, you know, the effort they were bringing today. Like, you know, Tobias goes off, the shooters go off, and Bede plays really well, Simmons plays really well, the bench shows up.

Like, you know, everyone showed up. Everyone showed up for this game. I would say the asterisk to that is this is the best starting lineup in the league, and they just lost one of their starters and Danny Green in this game. That's the big question. I mean, calf strains do not go away. Even a very minor calf strain can be a persistent six to eight week kind of injury. We'll have to see what Danny Green is able to give them.

He's going in for an MRI tonight. We'll see what comes back from that. But, you know, the chaos that comes with just like plugging in Furcon Kork-Maz in this game, they were able to sort that out fine and Furcon had a good game. That's not always going to be the case. Even though he gives you some of the spacing green does, but you're losing some of your defensive flexibility when you lose a guy like Danny Green. Yeah, and I think it gives Hawks, it gives Trey Young specifically,

just somebody in the starting lineup that he can target, whoever it is that they start, right? And it just makes it a little bit harder for them to switch. and yeah, I'm trying to convince myself. I really am. I'm trying. I don't know, man. Like, I get it.

Like, I think it will hurt them at some point because you just always want that depth defensively. But man, they just, they have a deep roster of guys that can do Danny Green things. You know? They have a deep roster of guys, yeah, that you can plug into the starting lineup and feel okay about in some fashion. They're either going to give you some spacing or great, you know, Matisse Thibels. case is going to give you, I mean, he makes 99th percentile level defensive plays every single

game. So you're getting something good from that spot, no matter who you plug in. You're just not getting the comprehensive package in a way that, you know, maybe like Bogdan Bogdanovich goes off in the next game. And that's the solution because, you know, Green was kind of tasked with trailing him after he basically flunked the assignment of guarding Trey Young in this series. And that's where you may lose something if you decide to go for more offense with Green's replacement. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. If you do go, I just feel like there's a natural progression here with like

Matisse Sibel, I just feel like is going to have to play more minutes as the playoffs go on. And I think like the shortening of Danny's minutes would have probably happened, if not in this series, in the next series, which, you know, is unfortunate. But it just kind of, it feels like kind of where things were at for him. You're talking about role player god Dana Green here The guy who only wins championships That's who you're talking about I love Danny Green man

I love Danny Green it just You know things aren't looking good Things aren't looking that great Let's talk about the Suns They Another team that I'm just so excited to see what they can be I did a whole thing on Devon Booker a couple days ago

I kind of want to do it again literally no one is stopping you thank you thank you for not stopping me um look man like we see it with ambide too like ambi has had has had these games like where he kind of to me looks like he looks like seven foot Kobe honestly like some of the moves that he makes in the post um and like you kind of see the same thing from devon booker and like it's natural right like a whole generation of players grew up idolizing MJ who grew up idolizing Co.

Or M.J. Whatever. Other way around. But like, everyone wants it. And this guy is actually the closest approximation in terms of style

in terms of like just how he plays, his scoring ability, his touch, his understanding of the moment. Like for him to come out in this game and just, you know,

decide that they needed to win. Like, he's had a couple of those moments. Like, he mentioned it in game six. Like, they wanted to close them out. He's just, like, he's learning almost, like, how to, how to kill opponents. Like, really, like, he had a ruthless game today. Like, he just kept coming back and back and back.

Like, he just wanted to end them. And there was nobody that could guard him. Aaron Gordon couldn't guard him. Michael Porter Jr. has not been able to guard him. him on the drop like yokish can't guard him like and he knows he has a free runaway to the rim and he's actually taking advantage of it and i think it's just such an impressive thing for a player that this is his first time in the playoffs like i just keep having to remind myself of that like when i think about like how poise he is um yeah i mean like this is this is who devon booker

is like thought he was going to be for a really long time and like he actually has become that and it's really cool like you see that Self-actualization? Is that what self-actualization? That's manifestation. That's manifestation, actually. No, but yeah, no, he's, he has, right? Like, that's, that's actually, like, you crystallize it. Like, that is actually, like, what is so fun about watching, watching him. Like, it is, watching, like, a young person figure it out. It's really cool. And, like, the, the playmaking, the defense, the talking, like, that's, like, he, you know, he can, he can put up points, right? But it's, like, how do you use your tools? It's, yeah, it's just, it's just super fun to watch.

I think the Kobe example is really instructive because he took the right lessons from Kobe. There are guys who have come into the league who have tried to have the Mamba mentality game and just want to do mid-post turnarounds. That's all they want to do all the time, you know, ISO post over and over and over. And if you watch Evan Booker, I mean, he is an incredibly physical off ball player. He is curling, he is making you work before he ever touches the ball in a way. that I think facilitates this really healthy dynamic that the sun's had that's almost it's not quite a LeBron-Kyrie thing but it's a riff on the same idea which is

Chris Paul keeps the offense at balance and then Booker just to get you know he just gets to be a buzzsaw he just gets to run through defenses work them off the ball before the catch get into advantageous positions before he even touches the ball and then exploit you like if you're a step behind him if you're all over him he's going to spin back he's going to draw a foul he knows how to work you. And that was what always made Kobe great. It wasn't just like, oh, the post footwork. Oh, like the fadeaway.

Like all the, those are components of a greater philosophical approach that I feel like Booker probably has more in common with than any of his other contemporaries. Any of this other like post-Cobie generation, these guys who idolized him as you noted, that's all there. That reverence is there. But he's doing it in ways that Kobe himself made super constructive and made into winning basketball. Rob, that was just such a lovely soliloquay. Like making what I tried to say sound so much better and just with so many better, so much more. Wow. Wow.

It is very much 1130. Thank you for being so eloquent. Thank you for staying up with me. Appreciate it. Of course. I don't know if I'm the Chris Paul to your Devin Booker or you're the Chris Paul to my Devin Booker, but whatever is working here, we just went up to Rio. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, look, we don't, we don't have to put a label on it. I feel like I'm more chaotic. So your fur can cork-maz is what you're saying. Wow. Like, I just, you just, you just put me on your level. We were Batman and Robin. And now I'm the guy coming off the bench that, like, you don't really know. You talked yourself out of it.

I wasn't talking to myself out of it. I was just trying to, I was trying to understand our dynamic. We'll talk about this later. Thank you so much for joining us. Rob, what are you writing lately? Who knows? I mean, honestly, playoff basketball coverage at the ringer.com from me, from everyone else on our staff. Go read it. Yeah, check it out. All right, we are back. It's me. It's say hi to the bad guy. It's Logan Murdoch. What's up, man? What's popping? We hear. You can hear Logan on real ones, obviously. And today he's joining us because he wrote a piece a couple weeks ago about Tray Young.

because it was like two weeks ago, right after the Trey Young's big silencing of MSG moment, which kind of solidified his place in the firmament of NBA stars, especially in this postseason, but also gave him a lot of bona fides as an NBA villain. Maybe not a super villain yet, but definitely a villain. So, Cyrant and I wanted to talk to Logan today about this. We wanted to talk about the state of NBA bad guys

and what they really are in this day and age. Yeah, we wanted to talk about the idea of villains. Does the NBA still have villains? I had that question, actually, and then Trey came along and pretty much solidified it. So let's start here. Logan, tell us about your piece. My piece is on Trey Youngen's villainous. It is, I guess, basically.

Wait, let's stop here. Let's stop here. There is actually, there are so many, it is very difficult to describe villains. Like, villainness is a name that you just had to come up with right now. There's villainy that Chris just used. Like how many roots are, like villain, I guess, is a root. How many different ways can we describe villains in a sentence? Villain, villainy, villain, villain.

Villan, villain. Is that a way to do it? Can we do it that way? Is that work as well? Is Trey Young, like, villaining? Is he vanilla villain? He's like in the process of villaining, yeah. Is it an action?

Is he just a villain? Does he embody the villain? Is it? I think villain is a very nuanced thing, and it's created through a lot of different factors. It's created through, I think in Trey Young's case, villain is created through the fact that when he was a kid, he was the shortest kid in the gym, right? And he got pushed to the back of the line. And that really puts something into you. I'm sure everyone starts out as nice, but when different things happen to you, what builds a level of a result?

resentment to everybody else. So you find this person that is, is well-intentioned with everything and trying to be the nice person and is brought in, a lot of things happen to him. And he's, he or she or they or whatever pronoun you want to use are put into this level of villainy or villainous or whatever you want to call that. But it's not something that somebody just wakes up and say, hey, I want to be mean. I want to be an asshole. It's something that is built. up through time, I think. So you think there was a point in time where Trey wanted to be the nice guy? I'm not sure.

I mean, I believe so. Yeah, like in reading on Trey and just doing research, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like he, and even now, he wants to be liked in a lot of ways. But I think that it takes another turn when he just, there's a certain point where you're just like, well, fuck being liked. I'm just going to be, I'm going to buy into this. I'm going to buy into all this. We see this with Trey Young.

We saw this with pretty much every modern. superstar and maybe in beyond, right? You see that with Will Chamberlain. You see that in a lot of what, you saw that with Karima Abdul-Jabar. You saw that with Alan Iverson, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant. Now, Kobe's is a bit more nuanced than we think, right? Because it was a lot of that was his doing and a lot of that shit was something that he did off the court.

But you see this time and time again where there's this arc, right? Where when you get drafted, everyone loves you. Everyone is like, oh, he's the next big thing. Let's talk about LeBron, for instance, right? Oh, he's this great thing. He's the best thing we've ever seen. We've never seen a high school player like this. And then it's like you start picking at his game.

It's like, oh, well, dude doesn't have a jump shot. Oh, well, he can't win a playoff series. Oh, well, is he really like, does he have to clutch gene, right? Or is he really, is he a leader? Is he goofy? Then there's this narrative that comes around LeBron and then it comes to a crescendo. then he wins a title. And then it's like, well, can he win another title without this?

And then it builds up resentment from that player. And then you start to see that as him as a Miami Heat player in his first couple of years. And then he wins a title for Cleveland. And it builds into this narrative that we all created that if he wins a title in Cleveland, then he wins three titles in Miami, right? And then he's vindicated. And now he's Teflon when he wins a title against with the Lakers. So it's like always this arc that we get with players.

And you can give them down the line that we kind of do to sell our league, sell the league that we love. Yeah, it's true. I feel like with almost every Uber famous person, there is this arc that happens at first. Like you said, first we love them. And then they disappoint us somehow. And then there is some sort of backlash to them. That disappointment part with Trey is really interesting to me. And it ties back to the stuff with LeBron as well because.

what did LeBron do? LeBron violated a norm, right? Like, LeBron left a team when you're not supposed to leave a team. Kevin Durant violated a norm. Alan Iverson violated norms in terms of the culture of the game. You have Trey is also kind of violating some norms as well. Like he's taking from the Hardin Playbook in terms of, you know, foul hunting and stuff.

But he's also just the fact of his existence, this guy who is, I was watching the game with my mom the, other day. And she was like, he's smaller than Steph. And like for her, that's like, obviously there were players that are smaller than Steph. But that is, that is kind of like the mainstream. Like she is shocked by this, uh, this guy's existence. And it's, it's, it's really interesting that like, to me at least that all of these guys sort of like go through this arc where then they like sort of become accepted again as well. Like I feel like, by doing the same thing though, by doing the exact thing. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

We just start We don't like what they did And then they win And then we just sort of like Start to accept what they did right And that I think is gonna kind of happen with with Durant too He seems to be on the other The other end of that

But it does make me think like These figures they change They change the game And I'm curious what happens to an NBA Where Tray Young is successful Where James Harden is successful You know Yeah

Yeah well what happens to an NBA where Trey and James Hardner successful and the very qualities that we used to deify Westbrook for are now like things that we mock him for, right? That they are like villainous, that he stat pads or that he takes too many big time shots when he's not the right one to take them or that he seems to care

too much. It's like Russ is almost like corny for like caring about whether or not the Wizards win and ate a playing game, right? And now Russ I think gets on in some corners of like basketball discourse gets mocked for it. It's really interesting though. Like I was thinking about, do you guys watch horror movies at all? The Shining is really good.

You guys check it out. Yeah, I've watched The Shining in a film studies class before, but I have enough intrusive thoughts without, you know, giving them to myself. So there's a, there's a trope in like exorcism movies where somebody usually says something along the lines of, if I believe in God, that I have to believe in the devil. right so that like the same thing goes for like NBA players if you believe that these guys are heroes or that you love them or that you cheer for them then the the opposite must be true for some people and that often like competes with it that you would also think that they are villains or that they are

there to disrupt your enjoyment of your team the thing that's really interesting to me right now I really wanted to get you guys's take on this is because when I was growing up it was just really simple like Anthony Mason clothesline Alan Iverson therefore Anthony Mason is he's a villain, right? Like that, it was just very basic. And it was a lot of it was shot through the prism of teams, even though I would walk over glass for Iverson. Like, it was still like, all of it was tied up into Philadelphia and him being a

sixer. But in this kind of like era, shout out the answer. Yeah. The podcast. Right. Named after him. But the fluidity with which guys change teams now and like things kind of change

will fall apart and come back together now. I think that you see a lot more like, here's my preference. of player rather than preference of team. So what does that do to our concept of like a villain in the NBA when, you know, a Hardin can go from Houston where people generally disliked him. And then I feel like in Brooklyn, even though he was like, I'm just not going to play for Houston until I get exactly what I want, he goes to Brooklyn and people are like, God, you know what, James Hardin's pretty awesome.

Yeah. I think it's like when you, I think we also have to go through the, we have to know this about. I think I wish fans would know this and have it been more nuanced. We don't know these. these people, right? So we're really, and I think, and the irrational hate on that is kind of weird, in my opinion. Like, I think that I had to deal with this with our, my co-host, Roger Bell, check out the real ones, Mondays and Thursdays. But you get this thing. I remember when the biggest, you know, when you said that, uh, that Anthony Mason clothes on Irish, and like, literally,

Roger Closelan, my favorite player of all time. And I, as a, as a kid, I hated Roger, but I think as an adult, I'm like, no, man, I get Raja's story and, you know, him being a guy that, you know, had to really bring himself up, like, by his bootstraps and, and playing these off-brand leagues and then, and really earn his way into this league, right? And you kind of see why someone would have him fucked up, even if he's a star, even if you joke around with Raja Bell about, you know, stars maybe not being on his level. He takes that shit personally and he should take that shit personally. right but I wish that there was a bit more nuanced in how we how we talked about villains or who

we deem as villains right because I just wish that there was a why that this this person is this way right or why that we my biggest thing I can go back to LeBron in general right or even the I'm not sure we're going to get into this I see the rundown right now. Kyrie and how we cover Kyrie and how we call it's cool it's cool on headlines and, you know, calling him the disruptor, right? But that really, that's, in a lot of ways, that's kind of, it's, it doesn't feel right when you, when you see something like that, right? And I think we play a part into how we cover these guys and make them these kinds of ways. And a lot of that deals with, you know, how we see them. Race plays a part in this and how we put in headlines on

things and we by large make these otherwise normal people villains and we we make them this way and then we want to get mad when they when they bounce back and they and they say some shit back to us and then all of a sudden they're villains i mean we talk about russell westbrook a large part of why he's a villain is because he doesn't talk and he doesn't say um he doesn't play into our media game and doesn't play until the way we would like to whereas uh you know somebody else, you know, or even LeBron. LeBron plays our media game, does everything and still is cast this villain. There was a whole summer during 2010 and 2011 of him getting, you know, he's immature,

his posse, all these different things. And it's kind of manufactured. He hasn't done anything wrong. He hasn't been had anything in the, he just didn't play basketball, didn't make a basketball decision that we all agreed with. Like, okay. But I feel like we can have Bill and. but I think we need to be responsible how we cover villains and how we or cover who we deem as villains,

if that makes sense. Logan, you just made so many good points there. That Raja thing is so interesting. I want to talk about all of that, but let's start there. I think the idea of parasocial relationships is like really changing the idea of villains. And parasocial relationships, essentially, like they've existed for. forever. They're just basically like the relationships that, you know, we will have with celebrities, whether they're artists or, you know, any, any type of celebrity, I guess. The nature of those

has changed, though, because we see more of whoever is famous as actual people now for a number of reasons, like social media, whatever. We don't, we don't really need to get to. We all live in this world. But it does trouble the dynamic of, it, right? Like, when you, when you think of somebody, when you actually, like, acknowledge somebody's humanity in their agency to make decisions, you're not necessarily always going to look at them as a bad guy. But, like, what was it like for you to, like, go from, like, seeing Raja's, like, this, this all-encompassing evil to now he's, like, your co-host, you're, I don't know, I don't want to say, like, I don't know what your relationships are, your friend,

like somebody that you talk to, like, every couple of days. I think what Raja, well, I mean, at a time when me and Roger were about to do the podcast, I really didn't care about that clothesline. I'm gonna keep it a bug with you. I did not care. What was your first? Because you, you mean,

you covered the Warriors, right? Like, you covered Katie. You covered a guy that was also beloved and stuff. Like, what was your first sort of like, you know, like, I guess just a moment where you realized

that you were off about some of these things? That I was off. I think, hmm. I don't know, man. I think. Or just a wake-up call.

I don't know. I don't want to say you're off. I do remember this. Okay, so I was at a, I played, not played, but I was a huge Raiders

fan, like a huge Oakland Raiders fan. And you want to talk about, like, a fan base that cast other people and things as a villain. It's the Raider Nation. You know what I mean? And so I remember one time when I was like, my first encounter as a fan, I remember I was, I was, it was opening day to 2000, I believe I went to a game with my mom at the Oakland Alameda County Coliseum. And I was in a nosebleeds in Mount Davis. It was hot as hell. And this Charger fan came. And I remember being like, yo, there's a Charger fan. And this Raider fan comes behind him.

He's like, where? And he throws like a fucking hot dog at the fucking, at the Charger fan. Throws like a whole hot dog with like the mustard and everything. First off, why are you wasting money, bro? Like, you're wasting a Coliseum dog on another person who was honestly just trying to watch the game. Like, it's just trying to have a fun time with, I don't know what their pronoun was. but they were trying to watch the game, right? They were trying to, they were trying to just have a fun night out or fun day out, right?

And I remember thinking, like, a few years later, like, that was fucking stupid. Like, that was really stupid what fans do because of a team and because of an organization that, one, don't pay them. And, like, you don't know these people. Like, you don't know these people. So I remember seeing that. That was one of the first instincts where I was like, this is stupid. This is really stupid. But I was eight when I thought it was stupid.

But then I didn't, you know, I had a whole bunch of other thoughts. So, like, when, um, it was funny, though, like, I was mad at, I remember being, when the Raja thing happened as a kid, I remember you're mad at Raja, but also I was just like, well, let me just, let me just, let me just read up on Raja. Like, he, why would he, like, the audacity for him to do is let me read up on him. And I never really was like, had beef with Raja like that. I probably said it just to be joking, but like, I never had beef with him. You kind of, all I saw is somebody that, like, was, felt like, he was getting,

bullied by somebody that was, you know, not only Kobe, but also Phil Jackson. And remember at the time, like, Phil was always on the refs during that series. And he felt like he was backed into a corner. And he was, and if you know, Raja, if he's back into a corner, he's not fucking around. Like, he's going to, um, he's going to respond if he feels like he's violated. So I kind of respected that. And, um, but I kind of got it at a young age that, like, fans are by and large, like, I don't want to say stupid, but they can't.

be at some of hard times. But you know what though? It's such an electric, this is such interesting conversation topic because you get into a zone where, because I've been thinking a lot about the Nets because there is a chance that the Sixers could play against the Nets. I've been thinking about watching the Nets kind of like proceed through the playoffs and specifically like their play style and like why like I'm like in awe of it but also not necessarily like emotionally attached to it or stirred by it. You know what I mean? That there is like a kind of two Kness to the way that they play where I'm just like,

this is a math problem that you can't solve, right? Like there's just too many shooters and playmakers on the court. You're not guarding them with seven people. So how are you going to stop them? And I'm watching them and watching them. And, you read, like reading more like some of the interviews with the guys on the team. And they're kind of like just like,

there is a vibe to them where they're just like, just sit back and clock what we're doing and appreciate it. Like just like this is, what we're doing is on another level. What we're doing is art. Like just enjoy it. And I kind of felt. like that a little bit kind of came out

in game three Milwaukee, Brooklyn, when PJ Tucker kind of... He was given Durant a little bit of business after a whistle. And Durant was just kind of like... The way he reacted was kind of like, man, just like, it was just to get the fuck off

of me, but there was also like an element of like just watch me do what I'm going to do to you. You know, don't get mad about it. Don't try hard. Don't think you guys are going to win. This is going to happen. Just enjoy. the ride. And I was like, that's not sports though. You know what I mean? This is why this isn't theater. It's not going to appreciate greatness. I want to see these guys get challenged. And that's,

in that moment is where the special thing that happens in sports, where something can happen that's not scripted, that does feel electrified is like why I think it's as big as it is. I think that there's a lot of people who appreciate the aesthetics and there's a lot of people who get really into the statistics, but ultimately, those like kind of like, I am cheering for this person or against this person is like the base experience people have at sports. I think that we, I think that we should get to a place where, where as fans, one, we should recognize that we don't know these people, but if we're going to cast somebody as a villain or like say we don't like this team, it's fine.

You could say that. You don't have to agree with anything that they say. I would just say leave it on the court. Like, as my coach, Alonzo Carter used to say, coach of San Jose State, get your feelings out to shit. Get your feelings out the shit when they get off the court, bro. Like, you don't know them. And then the funny thing is, and I'm sure that there's going to be Nets fans that really

don't like PJ Tucker after like last night, whatever, they're getting each other. The funny thing is... I'm sure one of the 35 Nets fans, or we'll probably just say, like, T. Like, fan number 34 is going to be like, I hate... Chris, you're already... You're already ready for the series. But the funny thing is, though, it's like PJ and Kevin are like really good friends. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I know. Yeah. That's the funny thing is. So like you're going to like defend Kevin or whatever. Kevin's probably going to look at you like, bro, I rock would do it. I'm not really a have beef. But it was a point that you just made, Chris, that was really interesting about the Nets player saying you guys should appreciate this art that is going. And yeah.

But I think that a lot of those guys, and specifically Kevin, I think he's, I think he's saw all of those things that was going on in Golden State about like there was so much I think that times there was so much vitriol against what Golden State represented and a lot of those things during the Kevin thing and that we kind of missed at least the fact that they were some of the greatest basketball we've ever seen especially during that like I think the last two years with all the you know the turmoil and things like that there was such a in my opinion there was such like a pushback on super teams and everything that Golden State represented, that it was like, we want parody. We want, no, no, we want parity in this league.

Parity is good. And it's like, actually, no, parity kind of sucks. And we've built a league on dominance. Whenever you talk about the Showtime Lakers, the 80s Celtics, the 90s Bulls, it's all because they kicked the shit out of you. That's why we liked it. We liked it. We liked it because we wanted to see if they were going to lose.

And I think that what you see with the Nets is a lot of these people, a lot of the players on on the Nets are like, dude, we're in this once in a lifetime opportunity. We're in this once in a lifetime time in the world. Yo, can y'all just like love us and just like see what's going on? And I think that they're seeing it kind of doesn't work that way. But I see why they feel, yo, let's just like enjoy who. You know, I don't think that, let's just enjoy what it is because we might not see this again. Yeah, it's super, it's super interesting.

even this conversation that you guys are having, like it gets at this sort of tension about where we really are with fandom and how we root. And part of the thing that we are kind of trying to address here is like is the way that we talk about villains, the way that we make villains now a little bit obsolete. And I think just the fact that they can push back changes the conversation. I think, you know, one of the most interesting things about Durant was when he said, when he was nicknamed the Slim Reaper, he didn't want that nickname. And I think immediately the pushback to that was like, you don't get to decide what your own nickname is.

And that alone kind of tells you like how much of this conversation has been dictated by media for a long time. on some level it's true that nobody gets to dictate what their perception is right like we're going to go put this podcast out into the world and people are going to judge it however they do regardless of like you know what my rundown said before like already the conversation isn't what we talked about like that's life right um but i think there is also value in in listening to what it is that they push back against specifically like for with with durant for example he said he don't want to be known as a slim reaper and then and he started thinking about a nickname. I think he actually said it, said it to friend of the pod, Bill Simmons, that he wants to think of himself as a servant. And I think that's really interesting because inherently, like, he sees himself

as bringing light, not death. And that kind of goes back to like, the horror villain movie thing that you were saying, Chris, where it's like, if there is a God, then that means there is a devil. And there's just this like duality that we have about all of these things that I think is just increasingly like becoming a little bit obsolete because and maybe it's always been obsolete. And maybe now there are people that are actually pushing back against this stuff. But like essentially when, you know, for example, Alan Iverson getting clothesline. I don't think people in New York were saying like Anthony Mason is a villain for that, right? Oh no. It was when Mace was on the Bucks. It was in that. It was in the Bucs series. So it was like, maybe. It was in the Buxer. Spreewell,

Cassell, Ray Allen team that the Sixers beat in the semis to get to the Raptors. No, no, no. It was the other way around. Other way around. Oh, yeah, the way around.

Yeah. Okay, okay. But yes, Milwaukee fans right. They were not like, Mace is a villain. They were like, that's good defense. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even...

I look, I'll be completely honest with you. Like, if there is an inevitable Dwight Flagrant coming. in this Sixers of Hawks season it's it is going to happen and when Dwight does that when Dwight Howard does that I'm gonna be like

it wasn't that hard yeah I'm gonna say didn't look like that hurt that much you know like and when Tray Rung is rolling around the ground and Dwight is like pleading with the ref not to get tossed I will probably instinctually

because I can't help myself be like that wasn't that hard of a foul yeah what was it like for you to watch Watch Traverson Knicks, though. Oh, it was awesome. It was beautiful. But the thing is, is that I do think this is changing.

I do think that aside from the Knicks fans who were making, like, viral videos outside of MSG dressed as Spider-Man and drinking Hennessy and stuff, like, the most people, and especially at MSG, like, one of the reasons why guys love playing there is because they get the sense that the crowd there actually, like, loves and appreciates good basketball. And that is, like, the secret sauce of that place is, it's like, it's a good arena. It's a great arena. It's a great place to go. It's awesome to be in Manhattan and then go out after the game and everything. But the thing that people love is the electricity that comes from people who really appreciate great basketball. So I think for as much as they were screaming

Trit Young's balding or whatever at him, I think that when he did, it's quiet as fucking here and then bowed at the end of the series, I bet you 75% of those people went home and were just like, that dude is a, yeah. That was beautiful. Yeah. And there was a showman. I want him on the Knicks. Yeah. Oh, you'd be such a perfect neck. Just kidding, Hawks fans. It's,

the trait, with Trey, it's really interesting because I think the fact that, especially in 2021, the fact that he actually embraces the fact that he's a villain and does the showmanship actually is what makes it easier for us to lock into it and get into it. Like he has, as much as earlier in his career, he didn't necessarily want to embrace that. He has now embraced it and, you know, just taking it for what it is. And he wants the booze, you know, he said he put on a show and he knows what you do when the show is over. Like, that's just, that's bars.

And I think we all enjoy that. But there is like, there's an agency that he has now. He has decided that he is a villain. And I think that's kind of what separates him from the Nets, for example. even Hardin, right? Like, I think him and Hardin have so many similarities in that, in Luca, too, like, the way that Luca draws fouls, like they are at the edge of the sig that is changing the game. But Hardin wants to be seen as an innovator, and Trey doesn't mind being seen as a villain.

I don't think he necessarily even cares how you see his foul baiting. But Hardin, the way he looks at it, is like, look, like, I'm looking at these rules and I'm finding a new way to play the game. and I think essentially that is a thread that is similar with all of the guys that we're talking about whether they're changing it on the court or off the court. Yeah, change how they run their careers. I mean, I think that like there's this pushback because also like we're all writers, right? Like we work hella fucking hard at writing and podcasting, right? We put in so much effort. I know you guys put in a lot of effort on the answer.

Me and Roger put a lot of effort in on the real ones that you can watch from Mondays and Thursdays and listen on the ringing progress. But when you put in all that work and done something for your whole life and then for somebody to go who has never done it or has never like has never even tried to put in a work that you have and be like, oh, that's bad basketball. Never mind that or that's shitty. You suck. Like they see one thing that you do and is like, no, it's no, no, no. no I don't like I don't like you that is their whole entire being that you're talking about right and so I can I can get why players would be sensitive to that because it's like like yo man I see it we talk about this all the time when we write dude and what we're putting a piece of ourselves into the world so if someone says like I write so much and someone says oh that was solid that was cool you're like are you fucking kidding me I spent the last two nights I got a combined three hours of sleep. Logan, is this a massive sub-tweet of your editors?

No, I ain't my editors. My editor is shout out justice sales. Not yet. Not yet. But like, you know, just somebody that says like, though, this is canned. This is rat. But I can see why that could. This is like a sub-tweet of self-loathing, really.

Right, right. I can get that, but I just, you know, I see this. And I, and I'm talking to speaking to someone who wants villains in the game. Like, I want that. I absolutely want there to be villains. Agreed. And I think that it would be great. Because I, because I, because I found, when, when,

When Trey did what he did at Madison Square Garden, and I wasn't the biggest Trey fan, but I immediately was like, I fuck with him for doing this. I respect him doing this because he's thumbed his nose up at every single person that doubted him or that didn't like his, like, you know, his off-season selfies when he bites his lip

or like or somebody who does all that stuff or who doesn't like his game thinks he's trying to be staff. He thumbed his nose up and was like, to, all right, after a win. And I was like, I respect that. I respect that energy. And I was like, yo, I need to write on this. And so that's, I do like that energy.

That's why I think villains should be in the game. But I think that we should just overall, I think we should just be responsible in both how we cover them and how we talk about them in general. Yeah, I think there's a level, like with Trey, it's so organic. And I think a lot of these other villain types, it's more like, we're kind of mad at a black guy for doing what he wanted to. do.

Yeah. Essentially. I think we're also like, I think that a lot of this stuff, we're in a new phase of this where there is like a blossoming of this kind of like animosity or however you want or criticism, whatever you want to say that is really rooted in the fact that a star player could change teams two to three times in the course of like five to six years. It's not on, it would not be unheard of for if what happens like in two years of Kyrie's like I'd like to leave Brooklyn and go somewhere else, you know.

Yeah. I think it's a value shift, really, essentially, right? Like, I think that's what's happening, right? Like, I think LeBron scared people. The Nets scare people. Their success, I think, scares people. Because, well, first of all, with Kyrie and KD, just the fact that they left, Kyrie, for him to want to trade from Cleveland, and then for Katie to leave the Warriors,

both of those two are signaling that there is something beyond. championships worth chasing. And they're going to go do it with a super team. And I think that that is just, that is a concept, like, you know, I think, like, that is a concept that I think, you know, is, it's kind of scary in that, like, we don't really know what, what do you think they're chasing? What is sports going to be for after that? Go ahead, Logan.

I think that they're chasing power and a power that they've never, they haven't had before. And the reason why a big reason, you guys are historians of the game, big reason why there wasn't player movement historically, it's because there wasn't free agency. You know, there wasn't like, you didn't have that. You literally couldn't leave. You could get traded somewhere. But there was, in the 80s, you couldn't leave. You couldn't leave the Lakers. It was dope if you was on the Lakers.

That was tight because you was locked in for a decade on the Lakers. That was cool. But by and large, the power of where you played had to do. with the establishment, right? And now you're seeing, Kevin Durant literally had a billionaire white man beg him on national television to stay with his organization. You know what I mean? He had Joe Lekom say, please, one more year, one more year,

you can go back and look at it during a ring ceremony. He had that. And when you have people doing that and you have, you have, you have that dynamic happening, there's obviously going to be pushback. LeBron James said to Dan Gilbert, I really don't give a fuck what you have. I don't care about quick and loans. I don't care about anything that you have to do. I don't care.

I'm going to leave your organization and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go to the Miami Heat because that's something that I just want to do. I want to go kick it with my partners and I want to go win championships with my homies. And then a few years later, he says, well, you know, I don't really want to do this anymore. I want to go back to Cleveland and Dan Gilbert, I got. guess I'll give you a title and I'll never talk to you. But I don't think we've seen that.

We never seen that before. And when you have these players by and large, you have these black players. Because don't get it twisted. That has a lot to do with this villainy and villain stuff in general. But when you have these black players, by and large, stumbling their nose to the establishment, the establishment is going to push back. And fans in general, historically speaking, for whatever reason, have always taken the of management and ownership over by and large more people that are more of the common man

than we think they are. They just are more outward facing. But when we see these black players thumbing their nose up at this, I don't know how else to say it, this wide establishment, there is going to be pushback. And I think that's what we're seeing, honestly. That's what we're seeing. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. And I think also like, you know, the fans, the fans are fans of teams, right? And the teams, the guys who stay on the teams for a long time, are, you know, the owners, the GMs and stuff as well. So I think it's a little bit natural to take that side as well, which also, I mean, you know, like, let's talk about Kyrie.

Let's talk about Kyrie. That's something that he's kind of brought up in a different way, you know, like you heard about him suggesting, hey, should the players have their own league? And he kind of, he's interesting and that he's done kind of like, there's, I feel like we're kind of building towards like kinds of villains and like the kind of thing that I'm okay with rooting against and the kind of thing that I'm like, I don't know. I think everyone kind of has their own relationship with it at this point. But like Kyrie said he was going to go to the Celtics. He said he was going to stay with the Celtics. Then he left the Celtics. And I think

if you're a Celtics fan, I think that's like, yeah, boo him. Like that's totally fair. And Kyrie like wanted to, you know, jump on it too, like stepping on the logo and stuff as well. Like there's a level at which like, you know, he is participating in that as well. Um, but there's also the other side of it where Kyrie was also, you know, one of the only guys pushing back against the bubble, um, has kind of, you know, also taken, like, man, taking personal days. That is a concept in sports that we are just so not okay with. We are so not used to that back. And if he, and he, and he, eh, if the Nets win a championship, especially with Like, Kyrie's been playing really, really well in this Buck series and throughout the playoffs overall.

If he keeps playing well and they win a championship after he had the season that he had, after, you know, Hardin and, you know, forced his way over the team as well, like I think a lot of people are just going to have a bad taste in their mouths because of what they think about how sports should be played, right? And what it means to be part of a team. There's also another end of this, though, where Kyrie is, one of the first. of the only guys that's like looking at the structure of how sports works and is saying, hey, maybe part of this is like not that good. Like, for example, the fact that he took paternity leave, like, that just made me think about the fact that like athletes don't take paternity leave. Like a lot of assistant coaches, coaches don't take paternity leave working coaches maternity. It's so normalized for a coach to be like, yo, man, I had my wife had a baby and

I'm here tonight. Like, she just said, that's so normalized. It's like, Oh my God, what the strange. But it's like, no, that's not cool. It doesn't happen in normal life. Kind of strange. I don't know. Like every, you know, do you bad. Like I also, like, I think there's a lot of people who work in the NBA to like not be around their families and stuff.

So, like, you know, like, it's a little complicated. But, yeah, like, he, he's broken norms and he's also broken rules as well, like not talking to the media and stuff. And there's, I don't know. It's interesting. Kyrie, to me, is like a lot of people now root for him because of that. That's the part that is interesting. I think what Kyrie is, and I was watching this Breakfast Club interview with Jay-Z, and he was talking about Kanye.

And I see a lot of similarities between Kanye and Kyrie. But what he said about Kanye was very interesting, Jay-Z. He said, Kanye is the guy that runs over the hill without even thinking. and sometimes he needs people to, he has great intentions, runs over to hear, to see what's up and to advance the culture,

but sometimes he needs help from his people, right? Like sometimes he runs over and he's like, oh shit, that was real. I need help. That was real. But I think with Kyrie and Kanye to a certain extent,

to a certain extent, not like the political Kanye. I'm not talking about him. What I'm talking about is he is one of those people that puts a mirror to the establishment and shows a lot of their flaws.

He might not be right in a lot of the things that he does. Like, I don't fully agree with what Kyrie does in terms of what the media and stuff. And maybe the flat earth theory. But when he talks about some things with the media, he puts a mirror of like a lot of our flaws, man. And a lot of like when he talks about when someone asks like, yo, is LeBron a father figure to you? It's like, bro, are you serious?

I have a dad. But that was somebody who asked him that question. And it's like, what do you mean? You were taking away a lot of things. And when you read about, it's funny because in that disruptor article that you read, it doesn't seem like, when you read the article, it doesn't seem like Kyrie, Guy's just like asking questions. He's like, okay, well, I don't know. I feel a little uncomfortable going into the bubble, right? I just feel a little uncomfortable with what's going on.

And he's asking, he's asking these questions about this establishment. and I think you need people like that. Now, is the earth flat in my opinion? No, it's not. Like, it's scientifically not a flat. But I think he's... The earth flat thing is a really interesting thing to me there. I think that defines him in a way.

And I think that makes people, it uses him and uses, people use that as a way to say Kyrie's stupid. And you can't, you always say that Kyrie's stupid. It's like a dumb thing that he said. It's a dumb thing that he said he has to live with. Which is not true. But I think it gets brought up. it's been so many years.

It was a dumb conspiracy theory he's had. And it gets brought up like every single time that he does something. And I think there's... He said this so everything else is... Exactly. But I have one more thing, no, one third thing. Exactly. One more thing.

When you talk about the difference in like, okay, Kyrie says some stupid shit. Also, he was like 24, 25. That's not excusing a lot of things. But also like Steph Curry says some stupid shit too. And along the same lines. But Steph every time, and that's not, I don't know what this is and Steph is smart and all that thing. But like, the difference in the way. The moon landing was fake, though.

That's the difference. The difference is the moon landing was actually fake. The flag is like, it's kind of true. But here's a thing, though. Why was there a wind? Right. Why was there wind? But here's a thing, though.

I think that. Stanley Kubrick shot it on the back lot. Right. But like, I think it's because like, Steph by and large is a media darling. like if you act step and you know step he's going to give you some love step doesn't call into question the purpose and motivation right but does he have those feelings towards the media like i'd imagine so maybe right yeah but because kairi went on this full like fight against this media crusade i think that he's also he's it makes it easier for the media because we're all we all got

feelings bro like if somebody shit talks us we're gonna we're gonna feel some type of way and i feel like we the media in the general takes a lot of shots at karee because we're all got feelings bro because Because of that, that, what he said in that quote, in a way that, like, Steph doesn't get. And Steph said some stupid shit, too. And it's okay. And he apologized for his stupid shit, whereas Kyrie was like, all right, I don't go fuck, I just kept moving. And he doesn't talk to the media.

And I think that you see that away. We kind of take that out. If you don't talk to us, we come in for your ass. We coming for you. And so I think you start to see that with Kyrie. Because he does, he thumbs his nose up at us. And we're like, all right. And I think that it used against him.

Do you see the Kyrie media thing any differently now with what happened with Naomi Osaka? I see a lot of similarities, honestly, where it's like, it's funny because around the same time, both of them acts the crowds that they were going up against. They asked the contingency of the people that were going to be at an event not to be racist. Or not to be, or they asked them, Kyrie acts the fans. not to be racist. And Naomi said, I'm going through mental health issues. I just can't physically, I can't speak during this time, right? I can't do this. And both entities literally went in on those athletes. The media or the establishment at the French Open was like, well, you need to go to the media. She said she was going to pay all the fines, but apparently that wasn't enough,

right? So that became a story in itself. And everything she tried to fight against or try to prepare herself against happen to her, forcing her to leave. Everything that Kyrie, when he said, yo, I don't, I just don't want, like, some racist shit to happen to me when I go to Boston. I please play. Like, I just want to hoop. Two days later, some shit gets thrown at him as he's trying to get off the floor. And he's, all they want is their agency.

They just want to be able to play the sport that they love, right, without all of the mental strife that goes along with it, any extra mental strife. And I feel like, someone asks you, if I ask you, if I ask, you like Chris, yo man, I just don't like, I don't like, I don't like the way you did that or I don't like, I don't know, you call, say like Chris call me low and I don't like being called low. I mean, Chris, I don't like being called low. Can you stop calling me that? I would think that Chris would tell me or Chris would be like, all right, bet I won't call you that. You don't like me and called that for sure. And we would be, but there's not that same respect.

I don't think that's to these athletes, right? Like, I mean, this gets back to what we talking about is like what happens what happens to our relationship collectively to sports if we start sort of taking away some of the more like like problematic but also passionate aspects of it yeah you know what i mean and this is like people in crowds together after a long time not being together drinking watching a game and letting their like stuff get away from them and that happens with popcorn on westbrook and it happens with water bottle on Kyrie, and it happens with people yelling about Trey Young's hairline. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, where is the line, like, there are obvious lines, but like, where's all fun

in games? Where is what sports needs to still be that, like, cauldron of passion that makes us talk about it all day long and think about it all night? Like, that, that is why sports is, like, has, like, outsize importance not only to us, but to societies, because this is this canvas that all of our emotions go on. And what happens when we're like, without that emotion and not that emotion? And I agree with you, man. I agree that, like,

Kyrie is making incredibly normal points. He's saying, that's a stupid question that you just asked me. Or he's saying, like, I'd rather not get racially abused when I go to this gym. You know, like, those are all things that humans should definitely be able to point out.

But I'm saying, like, it's really fascinating to watch where we're at and I'm curious to have this conversation with you guys in, like, three years and see what basketball is like. And, you know, Logan, it's so funny that you brought up that childhood memory of the Raiders game because it's like, we're having this conversation. Football is not like that.

No, no, not at all, not at all. It's funny because we're talking about that, and I'm even just thinking about the difference. You brought out football. And I'm thinking the difference on how we cover, or how in the moment we covered, like, Marchand or even Kyrie or Restberg and all these guys that don't want to talk. but like we celebrate when pop does it. Oh, it's hilarious when pop does it. Like, let's be real.

I mean, pop is a, I've had like fun exchanges with pop. But pop can be an asshole to media people sometimes. But it's like, oh my goodness, it's good. But he's like a genuine asshole. It's like theater to watch pop be a jerk to people. Yeah, and I've seen it like firsthand. It's like, dude, that was kind of fucked up how you said that to this person. Like they were, that was a good question and you just like shit it on them.

You know what I mean? But it's celebrated and it's just kind of, it's weird. And I think that. I don't really have the full answer to this. I have just pointed out what I see. You know what I mean? And I think that we're all at this point right now. I don't know if there's a full conclusion of this,

but we all agree that it's fucked up, I think. Look, we love putting out questions that don't have answers on this show. Called the answer, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. The only, man, the only thing I'll say about that Raiders game is I just don't. understand why somebody would give up

a good vibes hot dog like that like a hot dog in her crowd how often do you actually get to do that it's just it's such a sacred experience just eat your hot dog but like Raider fans are fucking assholes too man and it was funny because like we we

you know Chris as a Philly fan you know how it goes but we like buy into that like yeah we're the Raider nation this is what we do and it's like no I think style is cool I think transparency is very important I am a different person as an Eagles fan. I'm just telling you that.

Do you boo Santa Claus? Let's go to an Eagles game. Every Christmas? I don't boo him, no. Okay. But I, you know, like, I come from a city that booed destiny's child at the All-Star game.

And Kobe. At the same game. Billy really can make anybody a villain in a way that nobody else. But Kobe wore a feeling jersey and was like, I'm one of y'all. He's like, you're not here from here. Fuck you.

You're going, you live in a leg. It's like, bro. I hear of Father Marion. We should wrap it up there. Yeah. Logan, thank you so much for joining us today. Everyone read Logan's piece on tray at the ringer.com. Listen to real ones, Mondays and Wednesdays.

And check out Chris Ryan on rewatchables and any number of ringer properties.