The Ringer NBA Show - John Wall Trade Rumors, the Aaron Gordon Extension, and a Wos Rant | Group Chat

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

Justin, Rob and Wos are joined by special guest and Ringer writer Jonathan Tjarks to discuss the best-case trade scenario for veteran point guard John Wall (0:00). They plot out viable destinations for the former Rocket and then the four react to the news of Aaron Gordon’s $92 million Denver Nuggets contract extension (28:40). Later, Wos hands out a hot take on NBA Hall of Fame inductee Toni Kukoc (39:20). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Guest: Jonathan Tjarks Associate Producer: Lani Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Twice a week, Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay dissect the biggest topics in black culture, politics, and sports on their show, Higher Learning. They discuss the most important and timely conversations while also frequently inviting guests on the podcast and occasionally debating each other. Check out Higher Learning on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varyer joining me today. Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Special guests popping in Jonathan Charks. What's up, buddy? Hey, it's good to be back. I was once a regular. I'm a special guest, so we'll go with that. You're always special to us, man. Yes, sir.

I think it's a promotion, all things considered. Right, yeah. You're too good for the podcast, is what we're saying. I'll go with that. This is a special occasion because this is Rob Mahoney's Bachelor Party. This is the Bachelor Party. We're shipping our guy off to marriage land this weekend. And so as this pot is going on, Waz is going to take off one piece of clothing per segment.

Oh, wow. I hope that's okay with you. I think there's a bit of miscommunication. there's no wedding. I'm just doing the same thing I do every time Dante Xum signs a new contract, which is throw a huge party for all my family and friends and celebrate, you know?

So, Varian, we're turning this into a hot tub Twitch. A lot of people who are not on Twitch don't know this, but they have very strict guidelines about, like, sexual content, right? Or like what you can wear. But if you do it in the context of like somewhere where it'd be normal to have a bikini and a thong on, then they let it rock. So a bunch of Twitchers record.

in a hot tub so that they could get away with doing explicit content. This is a hot tub pod. You have all legal purposes. No, no, no, I've never done a hot tub Twitch, but I might have watched one or two or three before. That's crazy. Kids are wild, man. Although I guess maybe like Wads age people are also wild, so I don't know. So, Rob, that's what you have to look forward to.

Congrats. I can't wait. Peace by piece, please. Let's go. Okay. Well, other than Rob's in suing. nuptials. We're going to talk about a couple of the things. We're going to get into a popery section toward the back end, which I'm not too sure of how this is going to work out, but we'll go with it.

We're going to get to Aaron Gordon's extension. But first, actual news. Pretty decent-sized news item from yesterday. John Wall, it seems like his era in Houston, which I think amounted to 40 games, most of which he was injured or playing on a very, very, very bad. Is that E-R-R-O-R-R or E-R-A? Which one was it? It's good. You should write some headlines for our own type. This is a Shams story after meeting and seeing eye to eye on the direction of the Houston Rockets.

So the Rockets and John Wall both see the situation the same. They are on the same page. This is a joint agreement. The franchise and John Wall have agreed to work on finding a new home for the five-time All-Star Guard. The plan is for Wall to remain present, in air quotes, in training camp. I don't know what that means, but he's not going to play in game. So the writing is on the wall.

He's probably following the footsteps of Andre Drummond and Blake Griffin, some of these guys from last year who just sat on the bench and waited for a trade and then inevitably got bought out. My question, Charks, do you think that there ever will be a trade for John Wall or is this inevitably going to head to a buyout situation? I was going to say, what remain present means is not pull a James Hardin. Like, that's just what that means. And I think there is a trade out there.

I was actually looking at this morning. I think the Clippers makes sense for John Wall. They can throw together some contracts. So if they put up Eric Bledsoe, Luke Kennard, Sir Jabaka, that would make sense for John Wall. And I think he'd actually fit in L.A. with Paul George this season and with Kauai next year. I mean, to me, that's the one team that would actually make sense to do this.

And I'm kind of buying it. As you're bringing this up, I go to Google John Wall's name. and the first suggestion is John Wall and John Wall contract. And when I heard this yesterday, you know, I thought about his is one of the deals along with Westbrook, along with Chris Paul, that when they were signed,

the Chris Paul Rocket Steel, that when they were signed, everybody was kind of made a face like, huh? This is not going to look nice in a few years. And, you know, to the credit of Chris Paul, and Westbrook, Westbrook won. His contract has been moved quite easily

basically since he got signed and we thought it was untradable. And Chris Paul, as a matter of fact, got a new deal, right? After the contract that was pretty sizable. But John Wall, I think it's going to be, it's going to be tough to move this thing because, you know, for a guy to be making $42 million,

which is like, all right, let's just say it was Mike Conley and what he did on Utah last year, year, right? Like, it's a big-ass contract, but it's a team that's on the cusp and he's actually performing and helping them and taking them to another level. That's one thing. I don't know that John Wall is going to perform that, right? Like, it's one thing to be overpaid. And I know this is going to sound very profound, but it's another thing to be vastly overpaid. And that's what John Wall is. This is going to be tough. I'm going to be watching this closely because, again,

you know, and we'll get into this with Aaron Gordon, but he is in clutch. We trust. you know, the way they do business is a lot different from a lot of people. So I'm interested to see how this gets handled. The thing about being overpaid to is it's not just seeing a number and getting the sticker shock and the exorbitant salary. It just makes it actively more difficult to move them. Like other than, you know, the kinds of scenarios that sharks laid out with the clippers where you have multiple veterans on contracts worth like 10, 15 million or more,

it's just hard to get enough money together, much less to actually want this version of John Wall. Well, I do want to talk about the Clippers part of this because Charks' suggestion was interesting. Because I thought about the Clippers as an option if you were to get bought out. I honestly couldn't come up with a single team who would actively trade for John Wall on his contract, which for the record is two years, $19.17 million. The second year is a player option. He will most likely be taking that player option. And so, like, Waz, do you think that fit makes sense?

Like, if you're just giving up, like, guys who aren't essential to the, the title winning product with LA. Do you think you like him in on team? As a Hooper, of course, because John Wall, especially back in his heyday, you know, when he was leading the league and corner threes generated and stuff like that, like he was an incredible playmaker. He was incredible at setting guys up and finding open shooters and, you know, driving kick type of game.

Like he was amazing at that. He kind of left it because sometimes I think guys don't feel content being a table setter. They feel like you get your name. in Sports Center by getting buckets, right? Hashtag, bucket, hashtag, that dude's a bucket. You know, I think he kind of got, he fell into that trap of wanting to be a quote-unquote bucket getter. But, man, his greatest strength has always been his playmaking, breaking dudes down off the

dribble and finding open guys. And the clippers have been lacking playmaking pretty much ever since the Paul George and Kauai acquisitions. That's why it seems to me to make a lot of sense. because Paul and then Kauai down the rope and play off the ball, John Wall can set those guys up. He won't take a ton of shots. And all their salaries are like actively harmful.

Eric Bledsoe at 20 million. Like, who cares? Luke Kinnar doesn't even play in the playoffs half the time. Serge was hurt last year with a bad back in the playoffs. Like none of those guys are very essential to what they do. And I would say like, I'd put John Wall more in the category of Chris Paul and Westbrook. whereas Kevin Love is an actively terrible contract

because nobody wants him. John Wall can still be an effective player. I think he shot last year in Houston in a smaller role, which you could have with the Clippers. It's just crazy to think that at this point, there's a whole generation or a partial generation of basketball fans who have never seen John Wall. Since he signed the contract.

Yeah. If you jumped into the NBA to watch like the Kevin Durant Warriors or you got on the Raptors bandwagon, And like, you don't even know who good John Wall is. Right. And I hope that player's still in there somewhere. We saw, I think, glimpses of it in Houston, but that situation,

just so hard to evaluate a veteran like wall on that kind of, on that kind of team. To my capologist on the pod, how do you go about buying out $90 million? I'm like, how is that fucking work, dude? Well, I mean, Blake Griffin is still making close to 30 this year to play for the net. So all of this talk about him humbling himself. and being just a role guy. He's actually getting paid more than most NBA players. Well, you ask the right question was, but I'm going to tweak it a little bit.

It's how does Tillman Fertita buy out John Wall's contract? For sure. It's one thing for Tom Gore's and the private equity money to do it. It's a very different thing for Rockets ownership to be buying out. I think it's two years, what do we have like $92 million about for Wall left? Yep. Hey, Matt Shroles is back open. That butter cake, y'all.

Those things is flying off the shelves. My question with Wall is, does he still have the athleticism that he needs to be the John Wall or a older approximation of it? Like, can he defend at a high level? Because if he can, like, he seems like more of an upgrade of what they're hoping to get the Clippers out of Eric Bledsoe. And so in that regard, if you don't have hope for Luke Knard and you assume that Surge is just going to be dealing with his back issue for the foreseeable, I kind of like it. It's the best option on the board if you're saying you have to trade him. you can't just buy them out. You know, we used to have this sort of idea or just we used to think of it as

laws like more athletic type of guys. They fall off quicker because they're relying upon their athleticism and less skill. And so therefore when it wanes, their athleticism wanes, their game falls off the cliff. I tend to kind of feel the opposite way. I think that they're operating at such a high level of athletic gifts that when they fall off, it's still a pretty freaking athletic dude, right? Like, he's no longer, you know,

basically Usain Bolt with the basketball in his hand, but a decrease from that, it's still a pretty fast dude with the ball in his hand. Pretty good at moving his feet on defense. I think, you know, we mentioned Sergei Baga. I think he's a perfect example of this. At his peak in Oklahoma,

that dude was switching out and guarding LeBron on the perimeter. And no, he can't do that anymore. Right? Like, he's not going to guard the best guys at the end of shot clocks on the perimeter in any credible fashion. But, man, he's better at moving his feet than Jaya Oka for, right? Like, or some of these slow-footed guys that we see in the league, even at his age. And so I think the same can be set for John Wall.

Like, he's not going to be the Uber mega explosive athlete that he was at the peak of his powers. But, man, like, he's working from such a huge reserve of elite athleticism. I think he could still be, man, a really effective guy at both of those things, both getting by people off the dribble and staying in front of people on defense. And on the other side of the ball, like, he's got real vision. John Wall is a really good passer, reader of the action. Now, some of that stuff is dependent on blowing past the first defender,

so he'll have to adapt that part of his game if he doesn't have that step. But I think there's a good cause to trust in those instincts, in the ability, as was said, to be one of the leaders in setting up guys in the corners. Like that happens for a reason, that understanding of geometry. Now, is that worth $40 million in contracts from your team to trade for him? I think that's a pretty different proposition. And I would say like what Rob was saying about instincts, the good comparison is Bledso, his former Kentucky teammate. Now Bledsoe is a guy who needs all the athletic ability in the world.

He's just kind of running around out there. John Wall's a very, very smart player. So I would expect he'll have an easier time transitioning as he was into his 30s than a someone like Bloodsoe. Yeah, I mean, the clippers definitely seem like they're most comfortable or probably at their best in the smaller unit where they're just surrounding guys shooting pretty much at every position. Well, obviously not much of a shooter doesn't maybe matter as much if you're putting Reggie Jackson, Kauai, Paul George, Marcus Morris, doing some version of a death lineup and just like making sure that he is optimized there. I am curious, though, if this does come to a buyout and we have a bunch of other options, the table. Are there any better ones, Rob? Can you think of a team that might need Wall and

Wall might need them in order to rehab his value and maybe get some money back the following year? Well, I think going to the Clippers as a bio-candidat is the best case scenario for them. You know, if they can get him without trading those guys, that would be incredible for their team. I think the Celtics are probably one of the best fits out there just because Wall gives you so much of what the best version of Dennis Schroeder does and a lot more. though I think the one caveat to that is the reporting around the extension that Marcus Smart signed with the Celtics

it sounded like there was an understanding that Smart would be the starter at point and if there's kind of an agreement there that that's his job, his role maybe bringing on a guy like Wall is a problem but just in terms of talent and fit and teams that are in the right place to want a player like John

I think Boston makes all the sense in the world will Marcus Smart taking pull-up Steph Curry three interfered with his role was starting point of the team or is that part of the job description? You'll have to ask

you may have doka. Right. Yeah, no, I can see Boston as a fit for sure. Another team that's been sorely lacking playmaking

throughout the years, right? As their main two perimeter guys are good at good scoring dudes, they're not good table setters set up guys.

Although I think Tatum has taken a lot of strides and that the department since he's been drafted, right? That was kind of my least favorite thing about Tatum. He felt like a gunner very early on in his career, but he's gotten better at finding guys.

I think still, this team needs table setters. That's like Boston, the Clippers. Boston, a lot of ways, is a younger Clippers team. That's why it kind of makes sense for Wall in those two spots. The million dollar question with this stuff, or the $92 million question with this stuff, is will John Wall be a backup? Is he willing to back up another guard? because if not, so many teams out there either have an installed veteran and are a good

playoff team already and they don't have reason to shake things up or they have a good young guard in place who they want to evaluate and develop and wall doesn't really make sense for their timeline. So there's really just this kind of sweet spot of teams like the clippers, like the Celtics, teams that are hungry to get further in the playoffs or break into the playoffs. That pool is looking smaller and smaller just relative to the glut of point guard talent that's out there right now. I would be surprised if he was pulling this move in order to go be a backup on like the New Orleans Pelicans.

It just seems like you don't pull this type of power move unless, like, one, you really want that money. And two, you still see yourself as the type of player who deserves that sort of treatment. Let me run a few options by you guys because I wrote some down here. What about, so we're assuming that he gets bought out, what about the bucks on a minimum? You play for a title team. You move through holiday a little bit more off the ball. You're not as reliant on spicy Dante Divenzo this year coming off an injury. And you just play nice.

You give Yannis the ball and you just see what happens. Thoughts? I'm not mad at the idea. It's just whenever somebody like Yannis or LeBron, we're talking about optimal fits next to him, whenever we're adding Rondos and John Walls and Westbrooks to the equation, we start to get nervous because it's like, ah, the best stuff is shooting next to those guys.

right? So I start to get a little nervous. But again, that's another team who at times their offense seem to make no damn sense. Right. And so to have a guy to come in that will organize you in those moments, I think would be a valuable addition to them. But, you know, I'm always nervous about adding non-shooters next to Janus, particularly when it's not like a PJ Tucker guy where it's like, all right, we're just going to ask him to stay in the corner offensive. What he's really doing is guarding KD. What he's really doing is guarding perimeter guys, the best ones on the other team. That's not really the case with John Wall. You're not going to stick him in the corner. He's not giving you that great wing defense because he's just not big enough to perform that

task. So it becomes a different proposition altogether with a John Wall type mixing onus. You would have to think of him as, you know, not PJ Tucker value in terms of the defense, but maybe you're getting some of that role value in transition. You know, to get us out of the mud, to get us on the break, you're getting Janus running more and Drew running more. You got Chris, you know, coming behind the play to set up for threes. A lot of that stuff could work really well. The spacing, I agree, it does give me a little,

it makes me a little apprehensive, but, I mean, PJ Tucker shot like 32% in the playoffs. Like two shots a game. Right. Yeah. Just standing in the corner with defenses cheating off him. Like, there are ways to make it work if that's what they want. to do. I think I would prefer probably a more traditional two, a more traditional shooter with that

lineup, but I wouldn't fault him for trying it, especially if it's at a bargain off a buyout, you know? Charks, what do you think? Well, I would push back on that this is a power move from John Wall. I don't think so. I think Houston wants to develop their young guards, Jalen Green. They brought in Kevin Porter last year, and they don't want John Wall, they're holding the ball because I want to see what those guys can do with the ball. And that goes back to what you're saying earlier. I think if John Wall was backing up, like, an elite point guard. It's one thing. But John Wall is not going to back up Kevin Porter on a 21 team.

That doesn't make sense. That's why this is happening. I don't think he's really, I think he's being forced out much as he's being forcing his way out. Sure. The general rule is there are no mutual decisions in the NBA. All mutual partings of ways, all mutual calls to put a guy on the bench and never play him. Those are not usually mutual. Another team on the board here, the Dallas Mavericks of our two hometowns.

Texans here. I actually saw Dallas floated as a potential trade destination by someone as a way to get off Christos Porzingis's contract a year earlier, which seems extreme, but like that's another potential option, especially if it gets injured earlier in the season. Charks, what do you think about the fit, both as a trade option and as a buyout guy too? It's tough because if you come to Dallas, you just don't get the ball. Like, it's just not going to happen. Luke is not giving John Wall the ball. And it's like, oh, I'm going to spot up now and run off the bike. No. So I think it's tough.

I do love that this is like a be careful what you wish for, Monkey's Paw version of Dallas fans wanting secondary playmaking. It's like, oh, you wanted a guard to take pressure off Luca here, take John Wall who can't shoot and will demand touches and pull the ball away from your best player. Are we really here with Chris Stapp's Boisagus where he's basically cannon fodder in a salary dump? Like, I don't think we've gotten to that point yet. I think as a starting center, he's better than most of the ones we have in the league. And he's very easily plug and play because of his range at that position.

So he's not Kevin Love yet where, you know, the dude's demanding the trade as a guy that nobody wants to trade for, right? Like, he's not that toxic of an asset. I don't think he's in the running for that quite yet. But I think it's a buyout candidate. I love the idea of letting Luca take breaks on possessions instead of being just the only source of offensive initiation on the team, albeit a great one and it looks like to be an all-time great one at that position, right?

But, you know, he's still a human being. You know, like the guy has only so much to give in a giving game, possession by possession. So I love the idea of bringing in a possession soaker like John Wall is. Kevin Love is just sitting on a beach somewhere taking strays all throughout this podcast. I love Kevin Love, man. But when he demanded a trade, it was just hilarious. It's like, bro, you're on a horrible deal.

You're a stretch for, which nobody gives a damn about anymore. And you're going to expect stuff at the team that you get to. Like, who's trading for that? Noted group chat enthusiast, Kevin. love just listening to this podcast on a beach right now. Last one, I think this one makes maybe the most sense. What about the Spurs? Does it?

Well, I mean, I feel like Derek White is hurt all the time, right? And I think he is currently. And so at the very least, you need a point guard in conjunction with Jean-Demurie. I just feel like it's a very by-low on a star who you typically wouldn't be able to attract. And considering their background and history of being able to. massage minutes out of guys who were otherwise hurt or at the end of the rope, it could be a nice marriage of convenience, basically. I think they've done great jobs of rehabilitations in the past, right?

I think you think of a guy like Rudy Gay and how he was able to reimagine himself in his game in San Antonio. And it did a lot to further his career, right? Like, he got a dope deal with San Antonio. He wasn't a minimum guy this summer. signed with Utah and I think that was an amazing pickup for them. I think, you know, the Spurs can absolutely help

John Wall, you know, sort of reinterpret what it is that John Wall does as an NBA player, as a lead ball handler type of guy. You know, I can imagine a scenario in which that works. They've been pretty creative at that type of stuff in the past. I'm just not sure

there's a more important question for San Antonio than are Dejante Murray and Lonnie Walker and Devin Vassell and Derek White actually really good. Because if you can give those guys airspace and they're able to thrive and develop, that's kind of the future path for your franchise.

And if they're not, you kind of need to know as soon as possible. So you could trade for a guy like Wall. I just feel like he's going to take a lot of oxygen out of that room. Yeah, San Antonio is really in the Houston spot now, which is weird to think about. But like, they're a bottom three, bottom four team

that needs to develop young players and possibly get high, high draft picks. Like they don't need a 30-year-old to come in and hold the ball and rehab his value. Because they're not going to trade him anyway. To Rob's earlier question, I think, yes, I do think they need to figure out what they have with these young guys. To a certain extent, they're not really young guys anymore. John T. Dante Murray has been here for a couple of years. Like, I don't know.

Are we expecting Lonnie Walker and Devon Vassel to really pop as superstars? I just think, like, you could work John Wall into that system that they have because I also think it's interesting to take some risks. on some buy low guys like Zach Collins. I don't know if they necessarily bought low. It seemed like they gave them a pretty meaty contract there. But like I don't know how else they're going to generate superstars, especially if they're going to play around 500 ball flirt with the play in tournament, maybe make the playoffs.

I don't know how they're going to get that guy in there. So I do wonder if like rehabbing a guy into that Collins, wall, whoever is a smart approach because maybe they could turn wall into some facsimile of who he used to be. And that would be a boon for them. And I don't know if it necessarily detracts from what they're trying to do with the young guys. It's probably also worth asking if Greg Popovich cares if the Spurs are good. In one of the final years of his coaching career, probably in the NBA, like does it matter to him if they're pushing for the playoffs or the bubble or whatever? Or is he cool with just slow playing and developing guys? We'll have to see,

you know, just how much San Antonio as an organization feels that pressure or wants that pressure right now. Right. So Charks alluded to this earlier. So Wall is definitely getting all the attention here. But they do have another veteran kind of just lingering in the background as they make this pivot toward a youth movement in Houston. Eric Gordon is a guy you don't hear much about. I did see him on a broadcast during, I believe, the Cade versus Jailing Green game. They're like, hey, you're excited about these young guys? And he's like, eh? So Charks, for you, would you be targeting Gordon if you are a team like, let's say. say the Mavericks. 100%. To me, Gordon more than while, Gordon is an off ball player. Gordon was successful with peak James Hardin, which is

not easy to do. He was the one guy who stuck around, never really complained about his role, just got buckets off the ball, guarded a high level. People forget, Eric Gordon locked up Donovan Mitchell in the playoffs not too long ago. I mean, he's a guy who can

guard two, three positions. He's an elite shooter. He can handle the ball. He was playing in those Warriors Rocket series at a super, super high level. He's not battled. He doesn't make that much money. To me, if I'm Dallas, like, Eric Gordon is the guy I want. And I think that he can fit in almost anywhere. And I really love his game.

Well, he does the one thing that very few Mavericks do, which is catch and go. Like, he can shoot, but he can, as you said, Charks, put the ball on the floor, attack, drive. Like, he has a little bit of burst coming out of that, which, I mean, you don't want Reggie Bullock doing that stuff. Tim Hardaway Jr. will do it occasionally. But they really need players who can do that. And I like this idea of looking at the types of players, or in this case the specific players who are really good around Hardin, because those guys were often catching the ball at a standstill,

like, you know, needing to attack the weak side of a defense. And if you can mind that skill set, that's exactly what the Mavs need to be doing right now. To me, the only question around Eric Gordon has always been, like, his availability, can he stay on the floor, right? He's had a very checkered injury pass. But whenever he's played, he's been effective because of what Charks mentioned. He's guarding guys.

And he has range out to wazoo. And, you know, he's not afraid to put the ball on the floor and kill people. Like, you know, I love Dary and Finney Smith. But that's not what he does with the Rock, right? That's not what most of these guys on the Mavs outside of Luke could do. They don't create. They don't attack closeouts. They don't attack switches.

I think Gordon will give them, you know, a bit of. that and I know I messed up homie's name but such as life. You saw Rob just like licking his chops on the Zoom here. I wouldn't gonna say anything. I don't ever want to hear about Daniel, Tony, Justin Gafflin ever again.

And we're leaving that in there. Yeah, no, Gordon makes a lot of sense. I also think he would help on the defensive end to, like, if we're following the Hardin era, Houston blueprint, like, they kind of based their defense around like fire plug type guys who were switchable. I do think that that would be a boon without, uh, on a

team that as we talked about last episode definitely needs that there. Is there any other team, maybe some of the other teams that we mentioned, sharks, that Gordon would be a fit on? I mean, the duty of Eric Gordon is he fits just about everywhere. Because he does thread that needle of being able to attack without needing the ball. So you can bring him in and not really mess up, you know, everyone else's rhythm with the ball because he's such a good off ball player. I mean, make a list of teams.

It's really more about finding the 20 million to trade for him. Right. He would fit in Brooklyn. He's over 30, so then he was a perfect fit for the Lakers. He would fit on the Clippers. He would fit on a lot of these teams that matter. Philly can make a lot of sense too. The Bucs. Clippers would be good. Yeah, definitely. Especially because he only makes 18 this coming year, for some reason, makes 19.6 the following year, then has a 20.9. I think this is non-guaranteed. So there is a lot of money long term, but like, he's easier to fit in. You only have to trade. a Luke Conard and maybe something else as opposed to like really tearing down a lot of your team.

All right. Let's take a break there and we come back. Let's talk about Aaron Gordon and some of this other stuff. All right. Now let's flip to another Gordon in the news. Aaron Gordon signs an extension with the Denver Nuggets. Four years, 92 million with a player option on the last year. Seems like a pretty reasonable deal, especially after they traded for them last season.

I definitely soak up some of the minutes that Jamal Murray might have been vacating here or at least some of the responsibilities on the offensive end. My question, I think is the question that we always come down to with Denver. They seem to be putting themselves in a dicey proposition as far as the luxury tax and fitting all these contracts in because one, Michael Ford Jr. is also due an extension for next season. Rob, are you worried at all about Denver long term? Because they've talked a lot about being willing to pay the tax, but they never actually done it. That's the big question, right? Like, if this is an announcement that the Nuggets are playing in the big leagues,

you know, that this is historically a franchise that's taking care of their guys in terms of they draft, they develop, they sign those guys to extensions as quickly as possible, if this is a model where they're also paying the Aaron Gordon's of the world on top of that. They're really, you know, racking up that salary number.

This is what the real contenders do. And the nuggets are in a position over the next couple of years. If they want to be in that category and Jamal, or Jamal Murray's recovery, you know, is on pace and as expected, they're going to be in that group. They deserve to be spending this much money to have a competitive team.

So it remains to be seen when the bill comes due, are they going to be paying it or will they be, you know, trading out of guys, ditching salary, trying to cut wherever they can. We'll have to wait and see. But I think it,

I think it speaks to, at least a certain, it at least suggests that they might be willing to do that in a way that they weren't previously. We don't tend to think of Denver as the biggest cheapskates in the league, but they kind of are, like outside of probably Charlotte, because yeah, Mike is like, high paying it. But like outside of Charlotte, like Denver might be the biggest cheap skates in the entire NBA. Like they avoid paying that luxury tax as if it's the plague, right? And so I think what this is an indication of to give Gordon this type of money on an extension is like we believe in the core that we have. We think when Jamal Murray comes back and Michael Porter Jr. develops into a real deal bona fide wing phenom.

We're going to be one of the top teams in the West. And so therefore we can pay our probably in this scenario, fourth best player, $23, $24 million a year. I think that's what this means. They think this team is the real deal. And also, you know, it's like, look, Michael Porter, you're not going to bully us with your next deal, bro. Well, that's what I was curious. Like, y'all think he's going to be a max player.

If I was him, I'd ask for a match. I think he thinks he's a max player. The way he was throwing dollar bills at the club in Vegas. Mine is not a strip club, but regular club. This guy was throwing money at people. I mean, I was there. I saw him all the two eyes. I don't even need to have it confirmed by two sources.

I'm the source. I saw it. The way he was throwing paper, he know he about to get a max. I can see Porter Jr. signing something similar to the deal that Embed signed when he signed his rookie extension where there are a lot of incentives

based on playing time just to protect them from his injury history. But yeah, I think he's pretty much shown that he could be Max Calibur sort of player. Yeah, I mean, he's deserving of that kind of extension. And that's the thing about the nuggets and whether or not they're cheap or not is, you know,

there are franchises that when they're bad, clear the decks. It's like if we're not in the playoffs, I don't want to be paying shit. You know, I want to be below the salary floor and, you know, coming up to meet it. And then there are teams that when they're competitive are trying to cut corners. You know, the, you know, the heat trying to, you know, cut Mike Miller for luxury tax and pissing off LeBron, you know. So you don't want to be in that category. I think the nuggets are kind of on the verge of, you know, they've always been a franchise that has said, we'll pay for a contender. We're willing to pay for a contend.

Now we see if that's true. That's like me saying, I'll put a ring on Rihanna. And nobody else. Yeah, I think most teams, though, are going to run scared from the luxury tax. We see big market teams with deep pockets running for them, if only to just like avoid the repeater tax, which is especially punitive. But you're right. This is really the first instance where you could say, like, you have the team you always

wanted. You really need to put up or shut up here. Just like some initial projections, the deal that. Gordon signed would put them $19 million away from the expected luxury tax, which is actually surprising that they could fit in Yokic, Gordon, and Jamal Murray, all on really hefty contracts and still not be at the luxury tax line before they get to MPJ. So if MPJ is making anything above 19 by the start of next off season, then you're dipping into the luxury tax. So it will be close. But I think the interesting question here is if they have to get rid of one of those guys

who is it? Charks, is it immediately Gordon just because he's not the most talented offensive player of the three? Or do you say to yourself, if I have to get rid of someone, it would have to be Murray or Porter just because of how much

they dominate the ball in addition to Yoghage? I would say it's probably more like are you going to pay Will Barton 12 everyone else is making? Or the Monti Morris is your backup point guard making nine. That's where it's like

the rubber meets the road. I'll pay the luxury tax. Yeah, I'll pay the luxury tax. Michael Porter, but are you going to fill out your bench with guys you can actually play? Or are those big four going to have to do everything? That's kind of the question would be my guess. And like, that's where it does get really, really, really, really expensive, really fast is. And it just sucks for Denver because this one year where they were still relatively cheap,

Murray's going to be out. So it just, it kind of is what it is. It really is those three, the three mid-level salaries. It's Barton, it's Morris. It's Jim Michael Green. Those are the guys who, if, you know, if they start cutting bait and throwing things overboard, those are probably the guys who get thrown. And those guys will, you know, be very easy to move.

Every team can use. They're really good players. Yeah. And I think if you're Denver, that's where, like, drafting becomes important. So guys like Zeke Naji. My guy Bones Highland. Did y'all watch him in Summer League? He looked pretty good.

Guys like that have to kind of play bigger roles. And Cabazo is a former ACB MVP. So... That's a sneak peek for Waz's next. segment. Just quickly, Charks, do you have any hope for some of those younger guys? Like, Bull Bulls is someone who I feel like we've been talking about for five years, but has never been able to play more than five minutes in a preseason game?

I like Zeke and Bones. Bull Bulls never really impressed me. I mean, he can shoot, but I don't know. I feel like he's kind of been more on the hype train. I like those other two young guys a little more than Bull Bull Bull for looking at the future. Because for a team that has had a lot of success in this, area and they've been among the best at just like unearthing guys on the fringes, especially in like some of the late first rounders. The well has been dried up because a lot of those guys ultimately

became players who needed actual money contracts. And so it's more like Austin Rivers and like the Shaq Harrison types and then a lot of veterans like Javale McGee is on this team. Michael Green is on this team. Jeff Green is on this team. There's just a lot of green but not in terms of youth. Actually, I got a question for you all about the Nuggets long term. If we're thinking about the long term play of the Nuggets. Do you think Michael Porter will be here long term? Not because of money, but because he's going to be like, guys, I'm a star. Like, I need the ball all the time. I'm not a third option. Does that become an issue at some point in the next two or three years? I don't know. To me, you got to show and prove. That's the type of thing. I don't even think about

Michael Porter. First of all, you know, as we said multiple times on this podcast, the guy had, as John Hollinger would call it, the worst medical I've ever seen in my career evaluating draft prospects. Like literally, that's what Hollinger, like the worst medical ever. He's a doctor now to tell us to say?

Well, that's what the doctor said. Okay, sure. And so that's always a looming concern. I think that's the elephant in the room with this guy, right? Like, as much as he's shown, there's this sort of fear that he's just another Brandon Roy, a ticking time bomb as far as,

what his body is. So I think that's something to always keep in mind. And that's why to me he's always the most expendable piece because he does feel like a guy who his time is limited in the NBA as far as how long his body will hold up. That to me is like obvious. Like, all right, you want to go shoot? Somebody's dumb enough to take you off of our hands at big long-term money.

Go ahead. This is where Jamal Murray's injury gets really interesting. Because if Michael Porter Jr. gets a taste of taking 20 shots at night and decide that's the life for him. The nuggets are going to be put in a really tough spot when Murray comes back. Well, the problem with trading any of these guys now is that you're not going to trade them for spare parts when you already have a big three, four at the crux of your team. Like, that's the foundation of your team.

Like, that puts you in the same financial predicament to trade Michael Porter Jr. Or Jamal Murray for someone of equal caliber, unless you're getting back like a young guy a rookie contract, which if they are a high draft pick, those are still like very pricey contracts these days. So you would really have to be pay, you have to trade Porter for something approximating like a bunch of role players, right? So this seems like a no win situation regardless.

I think there are ways to manage it, even if Porter has a much larger offensive role than the one he's had, just because Yokic's game, there's a lot of leeway to it in terms of how many shots he actually takes. Now, if Michael Porter Jr. finds it very important that he's pounding the rock, taking guys off the dribble, then it's a different conversation. But if it's just a matter of, I want to put up numbers, I want to feel more involved, I want to have a different kind of role, I think there's room for him and Murray to be big time shot takers in volume. And Yokic, you know, stepping back a little bit in that capacity being even more of a facilitator. His game certainly allows for that. So let's transition to some gripes, I think, that people want to get off their chest here. The Hall of Fame, was this past weekend. We talked about it a little bit last week, but there was one person who had his name honored, who was, had his picture just drenched in Sepia that was a bit offended

by. You want to take it away, my friend? Look, I know we do this game with the Hall of Fame where Dino Raja gets to make it yet guys like Sean Kemp and Hersey Hawkins don't. And whatever, some might say that's fair, but I'm just like, somebody please give me what this damn criteria is because a lot of people accuse me of being xenophobic, jingoistic, because I'm acknowledging that the NBA is a vastly superior league to every other thing that's out there, right? We're not talking about the Spanish La Liga and English Premier League, right? Where it's like, all right, two separate professional leagues that are pretty much comparable. And so your exploits in both, you could be like, wow, that was pretty fucking impressive.

That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about vastly inferior leagues. And for me, it's like how are we judging your basketball accomplishments, right? What is the equivalent of second team all-MBA or not even second team? Because those are like elite, like third-team all-MBA guys to whatever the fuck it is people are doing in Europe. What is the European equivalent to that? There is none, right?

And we don't honor dudes who consistently are fringe all-stars, third-team all-M-BAs. But yet Tony Kukoch, because he killed in the final four of the fucking Eurobasket, is somehow like untouchable. I don't get it, right? It's not like he was overseas being the Babe Ruth of Italy, right? Where it's like, you know, all of those crazy stats you hear about Babe Ruth before they allow black people to play. Like, smacking more home runs than all the other teams combined. That's not what Tony Kooch was over there doing.

So don't tell me like he was over there and he was just this ridiculous force and he would have been a force in the NBA if he wasn't. This dude was a role player. He was like obviously a role player. He's never been anything more than that. But because he did it overseas, it somehow weighted more, right? And look, American guys go overseas and kill all the time. Y'all go look at Brad Wanamaker's overseas career. smoking fools over there.

Nobody's going to call him a Hall of Famer if he goes on to be a fringe role. Well, look, he's not going to be as good as Tony Koo coach was on the Bulls on any championship teams. But if he racks up some rings, nobody's going to be like, yo, but, man, he was outstanding in the German league. What about Ekbe Kudo on Fenderbross, man? I mean, that guy's a champion. Come on, bro. Nobody, like, look, or Dennis Schrooter, right? Like, his people are like, oh, well, Kookech used it as a launch.

because overseas is a launching pad for European guys and for Americans is where you go and you're not good enough for the NBA. Whatever. None of my business. But let's just say Dennis Schrooter, nobody's going to talk about his overseas career by the time this career is over. Nobody. Is it because he's black?

Like, I don't get it. So in summation, America first is what you're saying? Yes. Yes. Yes. Specifically the NBA, right? We're not talking about the NBDL or the G League or the CBA or any of that stuff. It's like the NBA is so much better.

Like, Sean Camp was so much better than Tony Kookech ever was. That's not even up for debate. It's like so obviously true. And Sean Kemp hasn't gotten a whiff of the Hall of Fame. But Jerry Rinesdorf gets to basically be, you know, a freaking lobbyist and gets this dude in. This is ridiculous to me. I'm sorry. Rant done.

The cherry picking for what international experience matters and what does it. It's ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. Especially when the Hall of Fame is supposed to take into account this like contributor to the game. Are you growing the game in these other countries? I'm not hearing the, you know, the E. John Lynn Hall of Fame case. Five-time MVP, six-time champion E. John Lynn. Come on.

Was he good overseas? I don't even know. Oh, he's been crushing it in the CBA. Yeah. Good for him, man. People don't respect the CBA. People respect the Spanish ACB. And to a certain extent, Israel and Turkey and some of these other spots, people don't respect the Chinese League.

But whatever. Like, again, I made the composal joke the other day. But that man won MVP in the Spanish League. MVP! Like, what the hell are we talking about? I'm doing some Googling. And to Waz's point. Jan Vesley, three-time first-team all-euro league performer.

Yeah, I'm telling you, Fennerbras, man. Here I guess would be the only counter I can probably muster up here because I think we're all in agreement that the Hall of Fame is just a total shit show and should probably not be respected at this point as a credible institution. Was Koo-coach was his youth at a time when guys just didn't typically make the jump from overseas to the NBA? Like, it was very pre-dream team. And so we're thinking about a different world there.

And so perhaps they're just, like, overestimating, like, how unlikely it was for him to go to the NBA in the first place. That's the only thing I can come up with. I guess, you know, having to play for the Soviets and, you know, the trickiness of being able to play overseas, like, in other professional leagues. Sure, that can be taken into account. But don't tell me he spent years not dominating the league. the Soviets wouldn't grant him a visa. That's, I mean, like, stop it, you know? And because people will just like, tis, tis, tis, tis, waz.

This is the basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. People thought they were making this profound point, but the game is the game, right? And which accomplishments are harder to achieve? Which accomplishments should be weighted more? Accomplishments in the NBA with objectively the highest level of talent, by far in the world or what you do against mechanics in Serbia. I'm sorry, bro. I'm sorry, bro.

The NBA is a vastly superior league to these leagues. And again, I'm talking about like, what does it mean to average 17 points in the NBA, right? And get no recognition for it. Imagine what you could have been doing against those Soviets on a day-to-day basis. Dude smoking bogeys in the gym. at half time. Like, come on, fan. Give me a break. I'm just looking forward to when we're doing this podcast 20 years from now and we're debating whether the G League ignites championship and

the G League finals mattered for so-and-so's career. It's going to be a great time. We would never do it because American dudes, we don't care what they do if it's not in the NBA. And international dudes, their leagues matter because they're international. Well, I mean, we just want to encourage international basketball because really who cares about the Hall of Fame? Like, you make it or don't. Like, Who's ever going to go to the Hall of Fame to visit anyways? It's just something on TV once a year. Here's the thing, Jarks. I got Peacock.

I watch the Premier League. I don't watch the damn MLS. I'm sorry. It's a minor league. It's an inferior product. I don't see why Europeans can't do the same with the NBA. I'll also say that I grew up about 30 minutes from the Hall of Fame, and it's a lovely day trip.

It's just trying to block some tall guys shot on a video board that's like from technology in the 1990s. man shaped like epcot you can go to uno's across the street have a little have a little zah for your afternoon it's good we should do waz rants though y'all been doing this since I've been gone like just the five minutes

it's cool this is a gold mine and we just have to tap it this is just a manner of speaking when you're from New York City it's not just the rant this is just how we talk sorry y'all related question which we hadn't discussed previously but I'm curious what you guys think here Marcus Saul

retired well, it seems like he's not really retiring, but he's going to play in Spain and then go out kind of like Pao did this past season. Do you think he would make the Hall of Fame just purely on merits of the NBA alone, or is he the type of guy who's going to need the European League slash, you know,

international competition committee to back him for him to get in? He needs the international stuff. Well, especially just as a guy who, if you look at what matters to the Hall of Fame, Mark doesn't have any of the counting stats that gets guys in. Like he wasn't a big time score, wasn't even a big time rebounder by the numbers. Super important player, really good player, but between coming to the NBA a little bit later and if we're just like axing his international experience in terms of like Olympic and Feebo play,

I don't know that, you know, a couple of a couple of all-star appearances, a defensive player of the year, one championship, that's not usually the kind of resume that gets in for a player without substantial, either great college success or great international success. I think he's for sure going to get in. But it's going to be on the, you know, kind of split between his appeal as an international candidate and as a great success story in the NBA. To me, Marcus Saul is the type of guy who should be the benchmark for letting international dudes in.

This guy was legitimately one of the 25 best players in the NBA at his, at the height of his career. He was probably the best player on those grit and grind teams. Like, this dude was a real player. This dude was leading his team to victories. He was the reason why their defense was just completely insane at points, right, while starting Zach Randolph, I might add, okay? So to me, Marcus Saul is the model of, like, yeah, this dude came from overseas and was legitimately one of the best basketball players in the world at the peak of his

powers, like legitimately making all-star teams winning defensive player of the years. Like, he was an elite NBA player for a large portion of his career. So if we're going to do this shit for Tony Coolcoaching Dino Raja, like, come on,

we got to get Mark Gassal up in there. I love it. I just get to sit back. Dino Raja? I've looked to look at this on the phone. Yes, he is. Yeah. Yes. Wow. So Gassal has three all-stars, two all-MBA, one defensive a Player of the Year award.

So, yeah, based on credentials alone, his case would be dicey. I guess the counter. That great Spain team, all of that. Yeah, no, but if we're saying, like, don't count the international stuff, I do feel like being a part of two particularly memorable teams, probably weighs in his favor just a little bit. Like, Grin-Gryan was very much an era-defining sort of team, and he was obviously a huge part of that.

And then, like, to win the title on a Raptor's team that took down the, you know, the the warriors. I feel like those are the type of things that especially as we get distance from them are going to matter a little bit more in the terms of just like sympathy and just like just the emotional residence case of him. And listen, who knows what a high school ball in Memphis did for his development, man? Come on now. If he was wasting away in the Spanish League, who knows if he would have even made the NBA? Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, was. But it sounds like your point is less about disqualify all

the euro experience or international experience and more about. If you were success overseas and you come to the NBA, and in the NBA, you're just a guy. You don't belong in my Hall of Fame. Yeah, you're a seventh, a sixth, seventh, eighth guy on a team. You're probably not a Hall of Famer. No, Marcus Saul was, again, one of the best players in the league, got max contracts. Like, this dude was great in the NBA.

Yeah, no, I just, I think it's an interesting discussion because he is one of those guys who's going to be on the fence. Is Kyle Lowry an automatic? He is, right? He's had enough success laid on. For me, he is, yeah. I think Mark is automatic. I don't really think there's too much debate to be had once you take the totality of his body of work.

But are we judging that based on the fact that everybody gets in? Or are you setting up a higher standard or bar for some of these guys? I mean, I think he would meet the higher bar, too, frankly. Me too. Especially as we move into, don't kill me Twitter, the advanced analytics error of things, of evaluating the game. Like, if you just do the actual advanced metrics on Kyle Lowry, I think it's a no-fucking brainer that he's been a Hall of Fame level guy.

And he's been an All-Star level guy for longer than we realized because he was doing it on teams that didn't matter. I'm a Kyle Lowry apologist. Stan, I love Lowry and his contributions to the game. I get to check into a podcast, and I don't even have to be the biggest booster for Marcusal and Kyle Lowry. This is a beautiful day. Well, Lowry's an interesting one, though, because all of his success has been at the back end of his career. Like, his first couple of years in the league were pretty mixed where he was, like, languishing on that Memphis team.

And then he was good on that Houston team, but certainly not to this level. And then he took off, like, literally midway through his career. It's one of the more bizarre ones. And so, yeah, like, now he has six All-Star games and has really entrenched himself. as like one of the guys of this league. I mean, this offseason was a prime example of that where teams were falling over backwards just to get them. If you're the New Orleans Pelicans,

you were completely trashing your offseason in hopes of getting him to your team. But like, it's definitely a weirder case than I think I expected. He gets in. I mean, the title too. He was the number two guy in the title team. One thing about Lowry, while we're talking about international basketball,

does he get a bump for being, I don't know, like one of the three most important figures in Canadian. basketball history? Nah, he's not going to get... No. No, what he's done for the game internationally. But no, you can't give a black dude credit for international growth of the game.

You're not allowed to do that. We know that. We know the rules are ready, Rob. But, like, you can't, you can't give the dream team credit for growing the game internationally. It was Tony Koukow. Duh. That's something you put on a packet that nobody actually, like, says anything. about that Kyle Lowry got a couple more kids into the Toronto youth system.

So shout to him. All right. Thank you to Rob, to Was, for Charks for joining us, our special, special, special guest. Wish Rob luck out there as he marches on into adulthood as we all sit here and do something with our lives. Thank you to Lonnie Ronaldo for filling out production. We'll see you next week.