The Ringer NBA Show - Jokic’s Offense or AD’s Defense? Plus, Examining the Celtics-Heat Revenge Series. | The Answer

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

Seerat and Michael begin their conversation by previewing the Lakers-Nuggets Western Conference finals playoff series and focus on how Los Angeles will be able to handle Nikola Jokic’s elite skill sets. They then take a look at LeBron James’s new role on his team and speculate on the ability of the Lakers’ bench to properly compliment it (11:48). Next, they shift to the Eastern Conference finals and point to Jimmy Butler as the key to how everything will go down in the Heat's matchup with the Celtics (30:07). Finally, they share their thoughts on Doc Rivers’s firing and what this could mean for the 76ers going forward (51:23). Hosts: Seerat Sohi and Michael Pina Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Ben Cruz  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mac Jones is ripped. Matt Patricia's calling plays. The Celtics are title favorites. And The Ringer has a new Boston show. I'm Brian Barrett, host of Off the Pike, the show covering all things Boston Sports. I'll have shows multiple times a week covering your favorite teams

and with your favorite ringer and local guests. Plus, maybe Bill will stop by to rant about the socks. Follow off the pike with me, Brian Barrett, now on Spotify. Oh, welcome to The Answer. I'm with Michael Pina today, and I know you guys have gotten used to seeing us on Monday nights, but we are here back in our regularly scheduled programming to preview the conference finals. We'll start with the Lakers versus a Nuggets, the natural conclusion that

we all saw coming. And also what I think is kind of the natural end game of our pairing. I'm glad that we get to debate Lakers versus Nuggets. Michael, how's it going? I'm doing great. You know, we're a few hours, 36 hours. 48 hours. I don't know it's been a total blur removed from the greatest game 7 performance in NBA history by Jason Tatum. So I'm just on the cloud right now. It's been, it's been great. Yeah, I imagine you'll be riding that high for pretty much the rest of your life. I am going to need you to hold your horses a little bit, though. We will, we will talk about the Celtics, and I'll give you some space to talk about Tatum. But you know what? Let's start with your second

favorite player, Nicola Yochich. Let's, where do you want to start with this series? Because there's so many fun entrance points. To me, I think the centers will decide this series. And it's a fascinating duel where it's like the best offensive player by far in these playoffs, Nicole Yokic, the best defensive player by far in these playoffs. And they're going to be guarding each other, I think. Or maybe that's where we start.

Do you think that they will spend a lot of time defending one another and going at one another in the post? Yeah, this matchup is generational in a way that makes me really, really giddy. Like you said, just like a clash of offense and defense, two of the best performers in the playoffs so far. And I think they're both going to have to play even better than they've played in order to match up with each other. Like if you look at the guys that Yoko has taken down so far, go bear the ghost of DeAndre Aiton. Davis is just going to present an entirely different challenge for him. He's got the size to contest his shots. He has a lateral quickness to keep up with him.

He can post up with him too. There's not a lot of guys in the NBA that can defend Yokic on all of the multiple plays that he can create in one possession. I always look at the Yokic hierarchy of shots. Beyond obviously his preference is to make plays for others. I imagine the Lakers will start one-on-one. one with Davis and kind of force Yokic to put them in a position to send help and send double teams, but kind of make him uncomfortable by making him a score. But you look at kind of the, I think Yokch kind of takes, like we talk about three level

scores in the NBA a lot. Yokic is kind of like a 10 level score. Like there's really no place on the court that I feel comfortable with him having the ball if I'm the Lakers. But yeah, I mean, Davis is a rare guy where you're like, okay, Yokic is going to pop off of a Jamal Murray screen, I think Davis can recover and get there for a three ball. If Yokos decides to drive after that,

then he's got the lateral quickness. If he turns around, like he often does in those drives and turns it into a post-up, then Davis can also handle that. And that just speaks to Davis' defensive versatility and just basically the job that he's done in these playoffs, it's kind of like, I mean, I don't think these, like, we'll talk about this later.

I think both these teams are pretty different from the version of themselves that faced off during the bubble. But it is kind of like the resurrection of a bubble Davis with probably more of a focus on defense than in the bubble. And yeah, it's just, it's going to be, it's going to be difficult. But to your question, yeah, I definitely think that you, if you're the Lakers, at least, like you start off with Davis on Yokic and then honestly, beyond that, I think to me, the question of a series kind of becomes

what happens if that's not tenable either because Yokish just decides that it's not or foul trouble or even just times that Davis is on the bench. Yeah, I think foul trouble is a huge deal and that's why I would assume and I rewatched the last time these two teams

played each other in December the last time at least Davis and Yokic played one another and both teams, both coaching staffs were sending help like hard every time the ball went into the post whether it be Davis

with it, whether it be Yokic with it, they were trying to double, they were trying to get the ball out of their hands and it worked I think like it really didn't work actually for either side but it worked like it was particularly detrimental when the Lakers were on defense because Yokic is just

this otherworldly passer and he hit Aaron Gordon for with a sick bounce pass for a dunk. He threw it out to KCP for a wide open three. I don't know how you necessarily

defend this player. All the things that you laid out with AD really smart in terms of what he can take away from Yokic and how he can make Yokic's life difficult. But when he is single covering Yokic and Yokic wants to play bullyball,

I don't think there's anyone including AD on the planet who can defend Nikola Yokic. He will draw fouls. He has ridiculous touch around the basket. He's got these little flip shots, the turnarounds. AD for all of his length, for all of his power, it just is a really difficult matchup for anyone.

So I'm really interested to see how much help the Lakers send. Davis, and then also I wrote a feature about this like a month ago maybe, but one of the things that makes Yokic so difficult to defend is how he runs off screens and how he's constantly moving away from the ball. and that strategy was implemented in the bubble or maximized in the bubble in the first round

when they were up against Rudy Gobert and the whole reason why they did it was they wanted to get a pain protector away from the basket and make a pain protector really uncomfortable and so for another series, this is what the Golden State Warriors tried to do, Anthony Davis, and something the Memphis Grizzlies couldn't

because they had no shooters. The Denver Nuggets are going to be able to get AD away from the basket it, I think, fairly easily. And how does everyone else on the Lakers deal with that? I think is going to be a huge inflection point in this series. And also, like, can AD hold up physically through running around, fighting through wedge screens and pin downs and UCLA cuts and all the things that Yokic does that makes him so abnormal and such an intriguing cover?

Like, it's just a challenge that requires more than one. player, I think. It takes like a whole unit to stop him or slow him down even. No question. And I think, I think that sort of idea of, you know, making Davis uncomfortable by doing all those things to him. I imagine Michael Malone was thinking about that, just watching Warriors Lakers, pretty much the second that they beat the Suns. I think it's going to be really interesting to see how it looks, right? Because the place that I think the Warriors went wrong with it is just their size and the amount of mistakes that they make in general. and also just like the sheer amount of mistakes that they made in that series in particular.

I think Yokic in those situations, AD is already naturally going to be away from the ball in a lot of situations on Yokic. Or sorry, away from the rim in a lot of situations on Yokic. They can just naturally do that in a way that's, you know, the warriors had to get into a lot of different sets in order to do that. And I think the Nuggets can basically force AD away from the rim just by, how do you have to, having Joker away from the rim, having him kind of facilitate at the top of the key, at the top of the three point line, whereas, you know, the Warriors had to get into a lot of screening action, that then, you know, the Lakers ended up switching. So I think it's an easier proposition for them too, right? And then you have just the fact that, you know, with all due respect to Steph and Dremont,

Yokic is a much better passer than them. He's more accurate. He's less capricious. I think he's just going to be able to execute against a lot of. Lakers' defense in a way that the Warriors couldn't. And also, they've just got the guys, right? Like, it's like, I don't know, there's just, there's just no real good option against the, against the Nuggets offense. But I think then also you got to start thinking about, like, different ways that the Lakers can answer that.

I was actually, I was reading Zach Lowe's preview of the series last night. And I have been an interesting thing that he said was like, what if the Lakers put Vanderbilt on Murray and they just decide to switch a lot of those actions? I'd be curious kind of what happens that. That is fascinating. And I think that first of all, like if you switch Vando onto Yokic, he'll just back you down into the post, draw foul, score, draw the two, find the open man, get a great shot. Like, that's what the counter is there.

I think Vando, another question, the number two question I have really is like, is he going to start or are they going to roll with the same starting five that they closed out the Warriors with with Dennis Schrooter running point? And then you have Reeves, Russell, Schrooter in your starting five, which is, I think, a little debilitating and takes away from your identity,

your strength, which is your size, your length, your defense. You have the best defense in the NBA right now and the best defense in these playoffs. So will Vando even play huge minutes? Can they score enough points when he's on the court? I think scoring is like, I just don't think that there's like a way to stifle Denver's offense to the point where you can win four games. I think you really have to be able to put the ball in the basket efficiently if you're the Lakers.

That's running as much as possible whenever you force a turnover, which as you said, a great point. Like the Denver Nuggets don't really turn the ball over that much. So that's going to be really difficult. Just any time you can run off a make, run off a miss, they're going to have to do that because being in the half court is really tough. And Vando, no one guards him. And that just lets Michael Porter Jr. hang out somewhere or Jamal Murray hang out somewhere and makes life easier on the defense, on Denver's defense.

And I think, like, one of the other big parts of this is the other side of the court where, like, who is Yokic guarding? I know he's going to be guarding Anthony Davis, but like how well can he do it and how will the Lakers punish him? Because the Sons weren't really able to punish Yokic, the Timberwolves weren't really able to punish Yokic, and the Lakers don't have as good of an offense as either of those teams. So I think that that's going to be just an absolutely fascinating part of this chess match.

Like how can you compromise Yokic's shortcomings to give yourself an advantage? Yeah, I mean, that's where the question of who you start actually becomes really, really interesting too. I think if you start Schroeder, then you've basically got three guards that can run the pick and roll with LeBron and Davis. LeBron is obviously, he's setting a historic amount of ball screens at this point in his career.

Can I pause you for two seconds? I suppose I say like, it's so funny that we've gone how long in this podcast and this is the first time we started talking about LeBron James. Isn't that wild? That's a really good point. That's a really good point. What do you think that says?

I mean, I've written this and said this before on this podcast, and if you look at my mentions on Twitter, they'll all let you know that how I feel about LeBron in this postseason, which is like, I think you have to look at him as not as like a 38 year old doing amazing things for a 38 year old, but as a pretty good player who versus the competition just can't do what he used to do. and like he needs to be awesome in this series offensively. Like I just talked about it. Like when a LeBron AD pick and roll happens and LeBron's able to just charge at a dropping Yokic, the Lakers are at a huge advantage. I just don't think he can do that in a seven-game series. Like in game six against the Warriors, he was amazing from the jump, like attacking Andrew Wiggins in the Post, being super physical, looking vintage.

Like people have framed it as. pacing and like holding things in reserve. And it's like, he just can't, in my opinion, he just can't do that five, six times in a series. So it's just a, I don't think like this is intentional necessarily or like by design. I just don't think he's capable of it. And I think he'll need to, if he was holding things in reserve offensively, like it all needs to come out in this series because they can't win unless he is awesome on offense, I think. I think that's the second point that this series hinges on. And I think it'll kind of answer the question of how much he was actually holding in the tank.

I kind of tend to think that it's part he has something that he's holding in the tank. Obviously, LeBron's very smart. I think he's always been a really good self-assessor. He knows what he has. He knows what he doesn't have. That's kind of what's allowed him to adjust to the game for the last 20 years or so. he's basically played like all of his minutes at centered and power forward throughout the playoffs. I think that tells you a lot about kind of where he's at and where he's effective at this point.

He's also just driving to the rim a lot less. Like I was looking at it yesterday. He's driving to the rim seven times a game during the playoffs. It's down from nine during the regular season or nine. Like I think it was closer to ten. Like, you know, it was in decimals. I don't pay attention to decimals. Math was never really a strong suit.

Exactly. Decibo. Yeah. Yeah. Screw. Fuck him. But that's, that's also like post, post Russell Westbrook trade, like post Russell Westbrook, like just being gone and no longer driving to the rim for 15 times a game and clogging up the lane. So, I mean, that's also, we all know that.

I don't have to give you numbers for that. We can all kind of see it. If you've watched LeBron, he looks, he obviously looks different. If he can summon some of the bursts that he has, usually that we were kind of used to seeing from, the perimeter and attack a guy like Yokic, I think that's huge. But I also think that there's ways that he can attack the nuggets that we've kind of seen throughout these playoffs, right? Like, I think putting him on a screen where Yokic has to defend on the drop, I think is

really good too. I think, like, in Austin Reeves, LeBron James Pick and Roll, is basically a nightmare for Yokic. It's just because of Reeves playmaking, the way that he can kind of get down to exactly the level that you'll give him. Um, you know, he'll, if you're just going to seed the mid range, like, yeah, sure, he'll take that. Um, he's obviously really good at drawing fouls. Um, and it puts a lot of pressure on the nuggets to, to help there. So, and it also like, I'm, one thing I really enjoyed is watching LeBron attack off the short role. Um, he's obviously taken a lot of lessons from, you know, I think the best player in the series, uh, that we haven't talked about yet, Bruce Brown, just in terms of how he's, he's, he's obviously taken a lot of lessons from, you know, I think, he's get into space and put pressure on on the paint and then kick out.

LeBron is obviously, you know, he's a generational playmaker and I think it's kind of interesting to watch him at this juncture in his career where like everyone kind of talked about he would turn into Carl Malone. But the thing is, like LeBron is much more graceful.

Like he doesn't have like that brutish, automatonic butt bucket getting thing that Carl Malone had. He's just more, you know, he's just a player who's always been sort of designed to take advantage of all the multivariari options that a basketball game create. So putting him in the middle in those situations, having him run to the rim, I think that's just like, that's as destructive. Like it's just, it's not, doesn't give you as many options, but, and he's obviously doing a good

job tacking off cuts. If his three ball is on, that's great. That's also another thing that I think the series kind of hinges on too. So I think that there's ways that he can attack Yokin. Do you want to say any more about LeBron or do you want to move on to? other ways that the Lakers can kind of attack. Well, I think the big minutes in this series will be when AD and Yokic are both on the bench. And I think through those, in those like pockets, LeBron will probably be on the court. And that's where he really needs to attack the basket. And I think Aaron Gordon will probably be his defender, primary defender still,

because I assume that the nuggets will stick with their, you know, small Gordon at the, at the five units that start the second and fourth quarters. And in those, like, little sections, like, LeBron needs to be the best player easily. And he needs to hunt Jamal Murray and pick and roll. Can he do that still? Can he, like, bully? Will the nuggets switch that?

Will the nuggets be able to get out of that and just kind of delay the possession and force tough shots late in the shot clock? Like, all these little things are really going to be fascinating. and your point was really spot on about his three-point shooting. It's a huge variable. Again, hasn't been great in the playoffs, but he seems to like shack at the free throw line, make them when they matter.

And I think the pull-up twos when they duck under ball screens, like he'll have to knock those down. He's done that for the past like 10 years. But Kenny still, it's just going to be, that's just a little like battle within the war, I think, that is really fascinating and worth keeping an eye on. I actually think that obviously it's important how LeBron does in all facets, but I think it's actually more important how he is when he's with the starters,

because I think Aaron Gordon has to get the start on Davis. I don't, you know, you just don't put him on Yokic for so many, so many different reasons. Oh, interesting. You disagree? You think that Gordon will start on Davis? Yeah, I think so. You think it's going to be Yokic? I think you try to hide Yokic, especially if, like, I guess it depends.

If the Lakers start Vanderbilt, then I think you just try to hide him on there have MPJ on one of the perimeter players or LeBron. But that's where I think to me it gets interesting. So if you look at the bubble, right, like one of the things that was really difficult for Denver was being able to handle both Davis and LeBron. I think there were nights that they could handle one, but then the other one would go off.

Obviously, this is a different team. Aaron Gordon, I think, is a much better defender than Paul Millsup or Torrey Craig or Jeremy Grant in these scenarios. But the thing is, they're really thin behind him on. the interior. So if both LeBron and Davis are figuring out ways to attack when they're together on the floor, I think that just puts a little bit more stress onto the Nuggets rotation, kind of forces them to answer some questions that I'm not sure that they actually have the answers to. And I think it's actually doubly important because they have the perimeter defense.

Like this Lakers team is very different because they have so many perimeter attackers. But they haven't really faced a defense that has. as, you know, multiple really good perimeter defenders in Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray and Contavia's Colorado Pope and Christian Brown, who while he did a great job against Kevin Durant, I think LeBron is just a very different type of matchup. And a lot of those guys, as good of defenders as they are, they can just be attacked by strength.

And then I just think, if that happens, I just start to question, like, what do you do if you're the Nuggets? Yeah, I, first of all, did not mean to frasel you with my question about Gordon guarding Davis. I think that if Schrooter is the point guard, then Yokic has no choice. Like, he has to guard Anthony Davis because then who guards LeBron on this team? Like, are you putting KCP on LeBron? That feels like a ultimate sign of disrespect.

And I don't know. I think, like, for all the reasons that I doubt LeBron, right now because of his age because of his foot injury like I feel like he would be an overwhelming presence for KCP but I don't know there's the matchups are really

fascinating in this series and I think that they'll shift as it goes on I guess I kind of on that note it seems like the Nuggets and the Lakers are both really vulnerable to each other in different ways like they both

present problems that I would be terrified of as the opposing team. And I wonder when fatigue becomes a factor. This is another every other day series. And the Nuggets have cut down their rotation. Actually, you wrote a great article about this. The Nuggets have basically cut down their rotation and turned their bench into an actual strength.

But they've had to do that by basically playing eight guys. And Jamal Murray is questionable for game one. He has an illness. And we don't know if he'll play yet. But he'll go and play. He'll probably play. But the thing is, when I started thinking about that it really started making me worried about the Nuggets rotation, like, I don't really know how well they hold up in a seven game series. And then on the Lakers end, obviously, like, they're old and they have to go play in high altitude, Denver.

And I think like both of these teams are like, it's weird because I'm trying to think about who's going to win this series. I don't have a good read on it in any sense because I think. think that if certain matchup things are a disaster for either side, it could be like a quick series. But they're both kind of evenly matched to each other. And it could also be a long series, which is like, oh my God, great analysis, right? I just, that's just really how I feel about it. Like, it could be Lakers in five. It could be Lakers in seven. It could be Denver and five. It could be Denver and seven. You know what I mean? Like, I just don't, so much of this is just going to straight up come down to like which of these like generational talents put the most

stress on the other team. Anything could happen. The Warriors could sweep the Lakers, you know, just it's a crazy world we live in. No, I think that, like, what makes analyzing the Lakers in particular really challenging, to be honest, is like their roster is full of surprises. Like, there's a Lonnie Walker game where he just swings a series, wins a critical game, goes bananas in the fourth quarter. I think we potted right after that game ended and were, like, stunned. There's a Rui Hachamura game. Just this dude who, I mean, watching him in Washington for his entire career,

I had no faith in him doing anything in a playoff series, let alone hitting like eight threes in a game, just didn't see it coming. I do not think highly of DeAngelo Russell as an all-around basketball player, but... He's a first quarter flamethrower, man. He's gotten hot at, like, timely. moments in games, just spots where the Lakers offense is in desperate need of any type of punch or momentum turn, and he'll hit

like two or three threes and 90 seconds, and all of a sudden just the whole game is on tilt. And that's credit to him. But I didn't anticipate Dennis Schrooter playing this well, frankly, and he's like a real contributor now who might start and was arguably their third best player. And that's, series against the Warriors. So I'm just expecting like Troy Brown Jr. to shoot 45% from behind the arc in the series or Jared Vanderbilt to knock down all the corner threes when he's left wide open or I don't know. Like I mean, I think Austin Reeves is like a very good player now,

just straight up. And another conversation for another day is like what is contracts going to look like next because I'm fascinated to see that. It could be like a Jalen Brunson 2.0. situation. But yeah, it's just, it makes it, I feel like this is a cop-out, I apologize, but analyzing this team is, they're very unpredictable in a lot of ways that have benefited them throughout this entire run. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they get different stuff from different role players like every single night.

And I've also never seen the LeBron James seem be so reliant on role players either. And it's just, I don't know, it's fascinating. They're really difficult to read. I think one more sort of point. before we move on is just we didn't really talk about Russell and we talked about defensive liabilities and I just think that Jamal Murray is going to take every opportunity he can to like have a guard versus guard

screen and try to get get himself on DeLo. I imagine if Schroeder starts he'll get the matchup on him. But also I mean I kind of wonder how Reeves would do. I think Reeves is just an evolving property. I think he showed some stuff against Curry. He's got the size. He's got the length. He's like reasonably smart.

I would like to see him on Murray, and I'm sure we will. And I'm just kind of curious. That's like when I want to put a pin in and see what happens. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, totally. I think Reeves has certainly acquitted himself on the defense event. His ability to be a cog in the best, like play big minutes as a cog in the best defense in the NBA, I think props to him. And he's got size and strength and he fights and is disciplined.

And when you draw fouls at the rate that he does, It just allows, like, offense and defense are always related. So when you draw these fouls and you get to the free throw line, it just lets the Lakers set up in the half court. And that is, like, super beneficial for them because transition defense, not their strong suit. And half court defense is like their bread and butter. So, yeah, it's just a really fascinating team.

And I think Darvin Ham has done an amazing job. He has a lot of options. and we didn't really get into who guards Jamal Murray that much, besides the points that you just made. But, like, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Vando started on him, if Reeve started on him, if Schroeder started on him. And then they would just kind of like make it work. And I think defending the Jamal Murray,

Nicole Yokich pick and roll, how they do that is key to this series because it has been the most unstoppable action in the NBA thus far over the past month. and, you know, Davis is obviously going to have a big role in that, and how high is he going to be in drop, and can he take away the pocket pass, can he contest the little floater range shots that Yolkich has, or take away the pull-ups, Jamal Murray's pull-ups.

Like, I just think the way those two operate is, their synergy is, like, so on point at all times, and disrupting it is really difficult. But if any defense right now can, I think it's the Lakers. Yeah, Rob actually wrote a great article about the Jamal and the Okish parent. He did. Shout out to Rob. Shout out Rob.

Let's take a break. Then we'll hit Heat versus Celtics. Make a fast break to Fan Duel during the NBA playoffs because right now new customers can get a no sweat first bet up to $1,000. That's $1,000 back in bonus bets if your first bet doesn't win. The Celtics are taking on the heat in game one on Wednesday. And in my opinion, this is the game that. the heat just absolutely have to steal. And I think that they have a good chance of stealing it.

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18777-7-7-0 stop in Louisiana, visit www.md-Gamblinghelp.org in Maryland, 1-800-2-2-470-0 in Wyoming, or visit www.1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia. Okay, so now let's hit the Eastern Conference Finals, where the Boston Celtics are going to face off against the Miami-Mahita rematch of last year's Eastern Conference Finals, a classic seven-game battle. A lot of the familiar faces, a lot of familiar faces, are back. Pretty much everyone except PJ Tucker, who's currently on vacation.

Shout out to PJ Tucker. Sarah, what are you thinking about this series? Is it, I mean, the Celtics are, I would assume, heavily favored. I'm not a betting man. I haven't looked at the lines, but they're more talented. They're deeper. Two guys who just made all-MBA, and they're the number two seed. Does that matter to you?

Like, should they be heavily favored? Did you kind of throw all that out? the window because Spoh, Jimmy, Bam, the history, just what are you thinking? That's actually a great place to start. That's kind of what I was, that's what I've been thinking about pretty much this whole time. Like the, the Celtics have everything. They have home court advantage. They have more talent. They have all kinds of depth. They can play in a whole bunch of different ways. And then, you know, they can, they can play in those ways with multiple different personnel too. If a certain guy isn't going, the heat are much thinner.

they are obviously I think they're on paper the less talented team they have Jimmy Butler they have Jimmy Butler and like that is that for most of the playoffs has just been kind of

the only factor that has mattered in these games I think he's the best player in this series if you know if you just go based on playoff performance do you have anything to say about that would you disagree

You know, I'm not, no disrespect, no shots at Jimmy. He's amazing. I feel like his existence gives his team a puncher's chance in any seven-game series. And you can't say that about a handful of guys in the league, five, six guys in the whole league right now. I do think Tatum is a little better of a basketball player. And one of the X factors that I think we should keep an eye on is like Jimmy's ankle. Sprained his ankle in game one of the second round against the Knicks. game too, hasn't looked. I mean, if you look at the numbers, like, they're okay.

He played huge minutes going forward in the series, but like hasn't been super efficient, hasn't been able to get to the step back, hasn't really been effective finishing at the basket on drives, still gets to the line because he's super crafty, able to bite guys with his shot fakes and his crafty footwork and all that. But I just think, like his health, I think, is a, is one subplot going into this series that I'll be keeping an eye on. And forget about like who's the best player in the series or whatever. Like the Celtics are the best team and the most equipped roster to throw guys at Jimmy to get him off what he wants to do. You have Marcus Smart, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Al Horford and Switch.

or drop is really a difficult coverage. Grant Williams, who might get dusted off, and we can talk about him in a minute. And it's like the best option, the guy who Jimmy will hunt and has hunted in the past is Derek White, who's the only Celtic who made an all-defensive team, which just like speaks to their riches and their personnel. So I think that that right there is just really fascinating.

Can Jimmy do what he did against the Milwaukee Bucks this, this late on not one foot or anything like that, but not in, I would say, like, the physical condition he was in in the first round. That's the thing with Jimmy, because like my instinct is just to say yes, you know, I think this is obviously going to be the biggest challenge she's had thus far with all respect to the bucks. But at the same time, I was thinking about it, I think this is easily the biggest challenge that the Celtics have had so far in the playoffs. It just feels to me like Miami is a little bit more battle tested. And because they're the less talented team,

I think it's actually really important that they steal game one. The Celtics are coming off a series against the Sixers that went seven games. They just played on Sunday. So it's a really quick turnaround. And it's a really stark stylistic difference playing the Miami He versus the Sixers. You know, I just don't like, Tatum's not going to get possessions on,

on, you know, someone with the size of, Tyrese or Dan Anthony Melton very often. Oh, that's kind of, it's,

it's going to be interesting to see what starting lineup the heat go with. If they do want to go a little bit more defensive and kind of switch everything,

then I think, you know, you got to have love coming off the bench. That's probably what I would go with, but it's nice that they can kind of play two different styles. But yeah,

I mean, I think Miami is going to have to win some of, you know, the hustle battles, they're going to have to win the possession battles somehow. I think the thing that concerns me the most about their ability to win this series is just the Celtics just aren't the same volatile high turnover team that they were last year. Like if you, if you kind of, I was looking back at the series last year and I just kind of remembered like, oh yeah, this was a series of runs in the most dramatic and ugly way possible.

It was just like one team either, the Miami, he would either go on these scoring droughts, which are still very capable of going on scoring droughts. And Boston would just stop executing and start coughing up the ball. They just don't do that as much anymore. So I think Miami, if they want to win this, they're just going to have to find ways to generate offense and more consistent half-court settings than that I think means a lot from Kyle Lowry.

I think it means a lot from Kevin Love. I think the other guy this, I think the guy that's a series really hinges on his Batman a bio. The Kevin Love question is really fascinating because there's 7-1 or 8-1 or something like that with him in the starting lineup in the playoffs. And his shot has kind of deserted him or it did in the second round. And basically the whole heat team couldn't buy a three in that series. But I think if you start Kevin Love, and we know that Rob Williams is going to start

and the Celtics are going to keep that starting five rolling after the success it saw in game six and game seven against the Sixers, But if you keep Gavin Love in the starting five, I don't know who guards Jason Tatum on Miami's roster in that unit. Like, Bam would be on either Horford or Rob. You have Jimmy who loves to guard Jalen, and that's pretty much who he always sticks to. You can't really put Max Struce. I would imagine Max Trues hides out on the other big. Don't want to put him on Tatum to start because that really simplifies what Boston's going to do to you offensively. So I think if you do start love, then that means you're like starting in a zone.

and who knows, like maybe Miami spends this whole series in a zone and they play Duncan Robinson and they play love because they need that offense. But then again, like Caleb Martin has been one of their best three-point shooters. And I think back to last year in the conference finals, I was sitting in Miami's arena, and I just remember Grant Williams was guarding Caleb Martin, and he would just stand in the paint and clap his hands and not even run out to contest threes.

And Caleb Martin missed basically all of them. like Martin's a better shooter now but that I think is something that the Celtics will live with they'll live with putting Rob on Caleb Martin they'll live with Rob on Kevin Love and just letting him roam and deter stuff elsewhere

but I think like the three point line is super important in this series as it is in every series in the NBA playoffs but particularly now where the heat know how to kind of muck up a game they go zone and they just shoot 53s. And I think we could see that. They did it in game two and Jimmy was not available against

the Knicks and they nearly won that game. You know, smoke and mirrors is kind of a disrespectful term. I don't think necessarily that's what this is, but they'll have to do like everything. Like you'll see one three one. You'll see two three. You'll see full court press, drop back into switch everything strategy. Like I think we're going to see it all from the heat. and you're really smart to point out, like, they have to win every 50-50 ball. They have to force turnovers, which is going to be more difficult than it would be

if you had someone like Victor Oladipo to throw at Jalen and just, I mean, he was a nightmare for Jalen in last year's conference finals. He's not available. So I think in terms of like shot creation, like can Miami score enough points? That's a big deal. Tyler Hero is probably not going to play in this series.

Where do you get it from? And can you, afford, can you live with lineups that have Duncan Robinson and Kevin Love in them that are offense heavy, that don't die on the defense event? I think that's like this series in a nutshell for me. I have a question for you just kind of based on, you know, you probably watch the Celtics more closely than anyone I know other than the man who writes our checks. But I was wondering if you think the Celtics have just had this inconsistency. That hasn't really kind of, it just, you would think that maybe the playoffs come around and they would lock in.

And in the right moments, they have. They've done what they needed to. There are some moments against Philadelphia that just straight up scared me in terms of, you know, why don't these guys give a shit? I am curious how much you think that can be solved by just a tactical move of Robert Williams being the starting lineup again versus how much that is actually just, an issue of just, I don't know exactly what it is because this is a team that is obviously, they're kind of, you know, they're looking for revenge in a way. I think, I mean, obviously, I think Miami also has, has plenty of, you know, the revenge series. It is. It is. I mean, these teams have played, played against each other. And like, this is going to be three times in the last four years. And they both had really tough finals

beats. They've just, you know, it's, that's what's really going to be fun about this series, too, is I think both of these teams have really been through it. They know how to win. They're going to be really competitive. They're very competent. They can just, they're just really smart. And they also just have guys that really give a shit. I think it's going to kind of be, and they know each other so well, too. I think it's going to be one of those series that could be a slug fest, basically like from, from game one. And we're going to get these awesome quotes from Spow about, you know, this is just like a bloody warrior stuff. I don't know.

I can't talk like SPO. But yeah. So anyway, so my question essentially is like I am not worried about Miami, basically, in the playoffs at least, being able to outgrit the Celtics. But I do kind of worry about that on the Celtics end. And do you think that the tactical adjustment is enough or is there something that, you know, maybe spiritually is going on? We've been texting about this the last few days.

You know, I sent you Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum hugging on the court after game six. And just the vibes are so great. It's just lovey-dovey. Everything's wonderful. All is copacetic. Nothing to be concerned about, you know? It's kumbaya in Boston right now. You're looking at me like I'm lying and trying to sell you snake oil.

I can hear your voice breaking a little bit. as you say those things. I'll also note that that handshake between Tateb and and Jalen kind of looked like they were doing it for the first time in a long time. Like they weren't really in rhythm.

Like you see, you know the way that LeBron shakes, like not to, you know, LeBron's got his issues with his teammates, but the way that LeBron is just like lockstep on every handshake, it was basically the opposite of that. Now they haven't had a lot of time to turn things around.

series-wise, they're going to have to play right away, so I don't know how much time they've had to practice their handshake chemistry. But, you know, I hope to see a little bit better in game one. We'll see. I don't know. It was organic. That's the thing.

It was organic. It was love. It just flowed from both of them at the same time in that moment. And you just have to, it just melt your heart, honestly. That's what it did for me, at least. Okay. So the foibles are kind of part of the humanity there. They're just like that's, yeah.

Okay. You know that. I will say going back to Rob being in the starting five, just from like how it makes everybody feel standpoint, it's clear to me by all the quotes. Everyone on that team is like, yes, maybe except Derek White. Everyone on that team is like, yes, this is what we wanted. Everyone is more comfortable. Like Al Horford could not be more thrilled.

not being just the five anymore. And like having a big next to him, he seems way cooler off with that. Marcus Smart said he was ecstatic. Jalen Brown said it was like the adjustment that the team needed. Jason Tatum loves Rob Williams. And the Jason Tatum, Rob Williams pick and roll was like totally unstoppable

in the last two games of that series against Philly. So I think just like, I don't even know, it's like when you're on a basketball court, just like, then there's a guy on the court who makes your life easier on both ends and just does all these little things. You just have a better pep in your step, if that makes any sense. Like I had no disrespect to Derek White, who's like the third best player, fourth best player on the team for the entire season and has been awesome. But he's not Rob Williams. Like coming into

this season, Rob Williams was the third best player, the third most important player, like by far. He was the only guy on the team who had a positive and it was a wide positive plus, minus in last year's finals, he's integral to everything that they do and was integral to their identity before he came off the bench and kind of everything got funky. So, like, tactically, maybe this isn't the smartest, quote unquote, move. And maybe Kevin Love or Caleb Martin, they go berserk from behind the three point line. And Joe Missoula regrets making that, you're sticking with that change for game one. But I think, like, in a way that is really hard to put into words, it just gives the Celtics this aura that they otherwise don't have.

I think I agree with that. I also, I mean, I just, I look at TimeLore. I look at Caleb Martin and I'm like, yeah, I can live with him running out to contest those shots or, you know, Martin having to attack a closeout. He's a great closeout attacker, but it's just the guy is built different. He's just, he's built for those scenarios, which is what makes him such a perfect defender in the modern NBA. He's one of those few guys that could really be in two places at once. defend in like pretty much every scenario there is and be a law up there at the same time. And he's also going to be huge against BAM.

That's the other thing, right? Like I think BAM at this juncture, it's just a different, it's a different BAM you would hope than the one that we got last year that just wasn't quite as aggressive on offense. I think he has solved Grant Williams in ways that he he didn't quite deal last year. I know, I know, I know. I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And I think Horford just a step slower. So, I mean, and then, and like Rob Williams has always had BAM's number.

I'm just really curious to see what happens with that matchup. I think a lot of it is just going to be straight up on BAM's aggression. But yeah, it's just, it's a tough matchup for him. And it just makes, it makes life a lot more difficult for Miami. I think if I'm Miami, I'd obviously have Derek White rather start. The last thing I wanted to ask you about on that note, Marcus Smart, when he was talking about the adjustment, also said, you know, Joe was obviously getting killed for it in the press, rightfully so, but he's learning.

And that kind of struck me as interesting. It kind of reminded me of the Raptors run in 2019 where Nick Nurse wasn't quite ready to be like a finals level, like the tactician we saw in the finals. That was like there was kind of a slow build to that. He was learning how to make playoff adjustments throughout the different series that he was coaching. Do you think that this could be a similar scenario with Missoula where he sort of is starting to figure some things out.

Like, can he get, he's not going to be on Spos level. That's just not really a fair thing to ask from like Spoh just being like a magician, tactician, in game adjuster and also just like an incredible spiritual leader. He are going to have the coaching advantage. That is just what it is. But do you think Joe can, do you think he has room for improvement? Like, what's his ceiling in this series? Yeah, it's what's really fascinating to me.

And I'm writing about this for, a series preview tomorrow for the ringer.com, go check it out, is one coach has maybe no options. Maybe he has the players that he has in SPO that he can play and he's going to play them and he's going to have them do different things and he's going to convince them that the world is out to get them and nobody believes in them and to leave it all on the floor and this and that. And then Missoula has like a lot of options. Like we talked about Grant Williams. We've talked about or we haven't talked about like Sam Hauser who fell out of the rotation but started the Sixers series in the rotation and was firmly in their rotation in the first round against Atlanta.

And like Joe Mazula loves anyone who can shoot threes. That's like a foundational tenet of Boston's identity throughout the regular season was like we're going to be high volume three point shooting. team that can space the floor, attack driving lanes and fill gaps and just like pummel you on offense and then the defense will just sort of take care of itself. Will Hauser play in this series? Who closes between White, smart, Brogden? Like, how many minutes will Rob play? Will he pull Rob if that doesn't work? Will he go back to Derek White in the starting? So like there's a lot of different things that Missoula, I feel like it's like a gift and a curse. there's no better way to put it where

like Spoh just knows who he can play and he's going to deal with those guys and kind of strategize with what he has because like Tyler he doesn't have to worry about benching Tyler Hero or anything like that he's not available and Missoula has to press the right buttons frankly like maybe he won't and maybe this will be like a total blowout series and the Celtics are just like way more talented and none of it will matter

but I'm more in line to think that he needs to be like on point with how he wants to defend the Jimmy Bam empty corner pick and roll. Are we going to switch that? Are we going to ice it down? Are we going to like what I just, I think all of that is going to matter in a lot of like in a magnified way. I think the series will be pretty competitive for spurts and who he plays and win will be huge. So I think he's a really good coach. I do.

and I think in game six and game seven, after he made the adjustment to start Rob, I think how they defended the James Hardin, Joelle and Bid pick and roll was like amazing. And Hardin did a lot of things that were terrible that made Mizzula look really smart, to be honest. But I think Mazzola is really good. And having him, watching the adjustments he makes throughout the series

and who he plays and how his rotation is altered will be just absolutely fascinating. And he has a greater margin for ever, but he also can make more mistakes, if any of that makes sense. No, I think that's kind of what I was, that's the insight I was looking for. Before we get out of here,

I'm going to just go gut feel, Lakers and Celtics, both in seven. What do you got? I have Nuggets in six and Celtics in six. although my brain is like, dude, Celtics in five, what are you talking about? But I just Jimmy, I feel like Jimmy will have like two performances that are absolutely out of this world. And Bam is good for at least one where it's like, okay, that elbow jumper, will it ever not go in?

So I'm going Celtics in six and Nuggets in six. Okay, yeah, I feel you. I think the Celtics will have at least one game where they just straight up don't show up. All right. Entirely possible. Before we get out of here, I have. actually, pretty much right before we started recording. Got news that Doc Rivers is no longer the coach in Philadelphia.

This news coming off of, you know, just one of the most depressing game seven losses for a team that has had a few depressing losses. I just saw you fist pump there. Not surprising. Doc has been on the hot seat all season long. Any initial takeaways for you? I think I'm a little surprised just because there's not a lot of options here for the Sixers with where they go. I don't think Doc Rivers coached poorly in the series. I think he actually was, I mean, everyone deserves blame for crunch time in Game Six.

I think that is where the series was really lost if you're a Sixers fan. but like strategically I didn't I don't see anything that Doc did that was like terrible I thought throughout

the regular season where he put Embed to maximize him make him the MVP was really smart how suddenly he was operating more from the nail where you couldn't double him

really unleashing the heart in Embed pick and roll with space just I you know I thought that that was like smart stuff, smart adjustments, a smart game plan. I think that when you play for Doc Rivers for a long time, players who do tend to really get, you know, he's not their favorite person in the world after a while. And I think James Hardin's comment after game seven to the press about his relationship with Doc could speak to that. but I don't know.

I am and I'm not. This is kind of the move that teams make when they don't have anything else to do, really. And I don't know what the Sixers can do personnel-wise to get them over the hump because there's a good chance harden leaves or there is a chance harden leaves. You don't have cap space to replace him.

Who's going to take Tobias Harris's contract from you? Are you going to trade Tyrese maxi or just hope Tyrese maxi makes a huge leap? personnel-wise, it's really difficult to do stuff. So I guess what they're thinking right now is there's a lot of really talented coaches out there. Wudenhulzer was fired. Monty Williams was just fired. Nick Nurse was fired.

These are all awesome coaches, two of them have won NBA championships. So maybe Darrell Moray thinks that that is the missing factor here. And he can, whoever they hire. or next is going to be able to take Embed up to an even greater level. But like if Embed injures his knee, it doesn't matter who the coach is. So I don't know. Like weird. I don't even know if I'm answering this question.

But I guess like fundamentally I didn't anticipate them letting Doc go as quickly as they did. Yeah. It's strange because a knock against Doc has always been his playoff adjustments and just in game tactical stuff. And this was one series in which, you know, I think I look back at game one. And I think that the adjustments that he made throughout that game were really impressive, but also in a way that I'm not necessarily used to seeing from Doc. So you understand why those criticisms exist.

I think on a locker room level, Doc is kind of the type of coach that is best when he's coaching a whole bunch of dudes who aren't stars. Like I kind of look back at those overachieving Clippers teams. like he can be a really good motivator. But he gets a little lost in hierarchies. You know, I think there's obviously, every team has hierarchies. They need structure, of course. But when I kind of think about the Sixers offense, with the amount of talent that they have on this team,

the way that it just never really gelled is just going to be something that I always kind of look back at. I think just the inability to unlock more of Tobias Harris' game, to find a way to get him more consistent touches throughout the course of a season is something I'm going to look back at. I think just not, I don't think he pushed Joelle hard enough to improve. I think like I was in, I was in Philly the game that Philly beat Boston late April. and Joelle had, I think it was 52 points. Nobody else showed up. And then the Sixers almost coughed the game up twice on just really bad errors executing, you know, just closing out.

Like, there was like a bad in-bounds play. I don't really exactly remember everything now. But what I do remember is going to that press conference. And Doc is not worried about that. at all, this team at that moment had the vibe of just waiting for the playoffs. I think if I was a coach and, you know, it was early April and my team wanted to make a run at the championship and they made that many tactical just like errors. And despite how many vets they have on their team, I'd be like kind of freaking out a little bit.

But he opens that press conference with just Joel Embed as the MVP. There's no question about that. And maybe that's what you do when you're a coach. on the hot seat, maybe it lends itself more to pandering to your best players. But I just don't think that those guys were really pushed hard enough to get out of their comfort zone. I think the same thing with James. They both, and that's on them too. But at the same time, I think like as a great championship coach, you have to continue to push.

and I don't think that he did that necessarily. I look back at, you know, saying that Tyrese maxi agreed to come off the bench that he texted him. I wrote a story about Tyrese Maxie, and I didn't put either of these things in the story. But I'll say now is that I asked Tyrese's dad how that went, like how that conversation really went. And in a free-flowing, very open conversation where we talked about pretty much everything, he said no comment. And I asked Tyrese about it and he was like, yeah, there was no, there was no, I mean, like, and they're not going to, like, they're not going to throw the guy under the bus, right? Tyrese says basically that there were no communication issues. It was a collaborative process and we're all on the same page.

And then I asked him, okay, so who suggested it first? And he smiles and he says, I don't remember. I think that was a situation where Doc was trying to, you know, he, like, I don't think he was wrong to bring Tyrese off the bench. I think tactically at that situation, it made a lot of sense. sense. But at the same time, he is saying something that Tyrese also kind of contradicted in a podcast that he did too, just about it being Tyrese's idea. And it's just one other sort of example where I feel like he goes out of his way to give players cover when they might not necessarily even be asking for it. Like, I don't think Joelle was necessarily the type of player who's asking for

that. I think Joelle is kind of the type of player who wants to hear criticism and wants to be pushed. So, I don't know. I'm going to say is that like one guy who for the last year has had an absolute field day criticizing his players in public is Nick Nurse and he's a great tactician. And if they, if, if Joel and Nick can get over there, there be from last year's playoffs, I think that would be a pretty interesting fit. That would be. They don't seem to like each other or at at least, Embed has been poking fun at Nick Nars and trolling him through the press for about a year now. The Tyrese anecdote you just shared is absolutely fascinating. And to me, he is the key to this team's short-term future in whatever way you want to look at it.

He was, to me, the scariest player on that team for the Celtics. The Celtics had no response for Tyrese Maxie. He was incredible, I thought. And, you know, that's a large, largely because Embed was hurt, I think. And Harden just malfunctioned in like four of those games. But Maxi's amazing. And I think you make a really great point where it's like the coach, like, I honestly forgot about the Benzzi Benzzi Benet.

and that whole in-season, and I don't want to call it a drama, because I thought it was handled very well publicly by everyone involved, but you don't see someone as talented who's that age, get benched like that, who fundamentally makes sense

and the numbers backed all this up, like makes a lot of sense playing off Hardin and in B. So, like, he had a right to be upset. I thought he brought it on defense too in the playoffs. he wasn't a huge liability, even though they attacked him over and over again. That was like Boston's offensive strategy and crunch time. Do you think it'll be nurse?

Like, who are we predicting here? There's so many good coaches. I think that's a thing. I think like the other thing I'll say on Maxy too is that the Celtics are a team that he is historically struggled against their size, their length, their physicality, just their understanding of matchups. They take him to his left hand a lot. They make him take shots that are difficult for him.

And he kind of overcame all of that, which is something that I look for when I think about like a player's future development. So yeah, I think like a future with Joelle and Maxie, then we'll see what kind of choice hardened makes is not necessarily a bad one. I just think that like this team probably needs to play more towards a style of serving a guy like that though. Like they were just way too slow. And I think maybe that that's something you got to consider in a coaching decision as well. Like if you bring in someone like Monty Williams, for example,

then I think he's definitely going to hold his stars accountable. But I think that will also come with tactically serving their interests, which if maybe you really commit to that, as opposed to this sort of like multiple sort of different offenses, the Sixers were trying to run it different times. Maybe that works. But I kind of look at the Eastern Conference and I think, yes, the coaching change makes sense. But I also just think that the Sixers have a lot of

tactical questions to answer beyond that too. And I don't know, there's Bud. I think Bud is really good at, I think the way that he kind of got Milwaukee's offense hypercharged. Maybe he could do a similar thing for the Sixers. People are talking about JJ Reddick. We obviously have no idea what JJ Reddick will be like as an NBA coach. That's just one of those sort of wild card,

like you just don't know until you know situations. Great podcaster, obviously. I would like to think that that translates well to pretty much any field, right? Like if you can just go and talk about basketball for an hour, I think, like, you know, I don't know. You can do anything, in my opinion. Totally. I think, first of all, the fast, slow push and pull that you just mentioned had me like flashbacks to Ben Simmons and Joe L.M. Bid on the same team. It was like, how, what's the style who's going to win out here?

But, yeah, Maxie is the fastest or one of the fastest players in the entire league. And the coach who I tweeted this, like, when the, when Woj first broke the news, but like Mike Dan Tony would be a hilarious head coach for this team. And obviously he has a history with everyone, most of the players and people involved with Mori and just all that going back to Houston and Hardin, et cetera, P. P.J. Tucker. they're all familiar with him they all love him

but Matt he would do like I don't know how he would be able to fit with Embed or if he could get Embed to play at a faster tempo or what I don't even know if that's beneficial for your basketball team to have Embed go up and down but Maxi would be amazing

with Mike Dan Tony as his head coach like that would be so much fun to watch yeah that would be awesome so that I think that's what I'm rooting for now that we've broached several of the candidates. The fast slow push and pull works really good with

Embed if the guy can shoot. Like we saw it with JJ Reddick. I think we didn't see it enough with Tobias Harris. Great point. Yeah. What if JJ Reddick came back as a player coach? And he just like came off the bench, ran a few dribble handoffs with Embed,

shot some threes, and then just went back to coaching. Bill Russell did it. Why can't JJ Reddick do it? Exactly. I mean, that's kind of what I've always said about JJ Reddick. JJ Reddick as a head coach would be fascinating.

I wonder how difficult that would be just interrelationship wise with, you know, becoming a leader of people you used to be your teammate. That would be fascinating, but yeah. No, that's certainly, and I wonder what style of play he would adopt. And obviously, the Joe Missoula wanted to bring him onto his staff before the season started. So, I mean, JJ Redick's super smart. if anyone listens to his podcast, they know that. I'm rooting for Mike Dantonian to get this job, though,

now that I'm just thinking about it more and more. Sounds like the most fun option. And it makes like the defense optional thing. Like maybe Hardin comes back. I don't know. I don't think they win a title with the Antony, but I think I'd have a lot of fun watching them. Definitely not, but it would be fun.

Yeah. All right. Any other thoughts on the doc firing? No, I think Doc is, I mean, won a championship in two, 2008, went to the finals in 2010, has come close with some really talented teams, has obviously blown several 3-2-3-1 playoff series leads. I think that that has become, I know that has become the predominant narrative

when his name is mentioned is like the guy who chokes away or squanders away advantages. I just think he's a really good coach. and I think that a couple of the teams that recently fired their head coaches will take a strong look at him, i.e., like the Milwaukee Bucks, for example, I would not be shocked at all if he got that job, still really respected, still really smart, and I think has become underrated tactically, honestly. Yeah, strangely, strangely. Yeah, we'll see where doc goes.

that'll be another interesting wrinkle. Well, thank you, thank you, Mike. Thank you, Chris and Ben, for producing. And we will talk to you guys next week.