The Ringer NBA Show - Jonathan Isaac Is a Star, Trae Young's Bust Potential, and Other Summer League Takeaways | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 301)

Episode Date: July 10, 2018

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor sit down in Caesars Palace Las Vegas to talk NBA summer league. They discuss Jonathan Isaac's impressive play, Mo Bamba, Jaren Jackson Jr., and Kevin Knox. They revisit Trae Young's bust potential and discuss the uncertainty of college stats and the shortage of sophomores in this year's summer league. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, what's up, everybody. We got a good Ringer NBA show today with me and Chris Vernon here in Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas. Before we get to that, you go to check out the ringer.com. We have an article by Shea Serrano about his experience seeing the Las Vegas Aces this weekend. I was there with him. It was an amazing time, and Shay perfectly captured just what was an honestly amazing WNBA game. I had a good time. Check out Shay's article.

And also shout out to Mark Titus for letting us use his hotel room at Caesar's Palace. to record this podcast with me and Verno. And also be sure to check out Titus and Tate Frazier, one-shining podcast. They're recording throughout the summer, despite the fact that college basketball season is over. Check out their show. It's always fun, always insightful.

Now let's get to the show. I'm Chris Farnan. Join to me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. And this time in person, Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Conflict, a.k.a. Kevin O'Climber. And he's in person with me. Yeah, boy. Yes. We're in Cesar's Palace, overlooking beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. Some dope swimming pools here at Cesar's Palace. There are some nice swimming pools at Cesar's Palace.

And so we have been able to, we've been around to be around each other a bunch throughout this week and watch a lot of basketball over at the gyms. I guess we'll start with standouts, right? You go to the gym and last year, I remember us doing this podcast and Donovan Mitchell and Jason Tatum, I mean, it was pretty obvious when you watched those guys. There were a lot of moments where you would watch them and you would think that's the best player on the floor. Or possibly what did we miss about this guy?

More so Mitchell than Tatum, obviously. because he went a little bit later. This year, in terms of being there and watching so far, I think the first one is going to maybe surprise some people, but there have been, like, the moment for me, I think two or three different times has happened, one of which was interestingly a second year player, and that's Jonathan Isaac.

There have been at least. First guy on my list too, really? There's been at least twice where I've been at the games, and there's a five to ten minute span where I'm watching the game and I think this guy is just better than everybody else out on the court. And he's one of these guys that just kind of, you know, he got lost in the conversation. He really had a very insignificant rookie year. Injury riddled. Injury riddled.

He's out a lot. He was a very high pick by the Orlando Magic. But he was just off the radar last year. And then he comes back this year. And I remember when I saw him in the preseason last year, there was a moment where he was standing next to Chandler Parsons and guarding him and he just towered over Parsons. And Parsons is a legit 610, 611. And I'm like, how big is this kid? I am convinced he did the Janus thing and he grew. I think he did. Yeah, he's over seven feet. I mean,

I don't know, I don't think he's over seven feet, but he was listening at 610. I think he might be like 611, 6.6.11 a half. I think he looks a little bit taller, but maybe if he's not taller, he's at least stronger, he's wider. His body has really filled out, and he looks unbelievable. Well, and it was the ball handling. I mean, when you are that big, and he looks so skilled on the perimeter, I'm watching that, and I'm like, holy mackerel, like, this guy was off the radar, but they may have something really special here.

With Isaac, that was the interesting thing in the draft. So, like, you know, entering the drafts at Florida State, it was like, oh, he's got the first step. You know, he looks like he could potentially become a guy who can create off the dribble, but his handle was pretty weak. He wasn't able to create much space. He didn't have advanced moves. And now he's looking better. That dribbles a little bit tighter, that he's taking advantage of that first step.

And he's looking a little bit better offensively. And it's not just offense though either. Like, that dude can defend with his size and length and length. And not just size and length of athleticism, but like intent, willingness to defend. He's looking like a potentially really good two-way player this season for the old end of magic encouraging. And you talk to people, and by all accounts, really great kid. Yeah, he's a really good kid.

Right. He's also, he's an interesting one because I don't think that this has gotten a lot of attention. Again, wasn't a big season. It was injury riddled for him. He wasn't a topic of conversation like ever. And his offense wasn't there yet. It still might not be there. It's just summer league, but it's definitely a step forward, no doubt about that.

But on the personality size, he's like a very devout Christian. Like, he invited all the magic to come to like a church where he like did a sermon. Like he is like this guy who's got. Oh, yes, I did know that. Real like, I remember now. My brain just doesn't work sometimes. It's interesting because you just don't, you don't hear that a lot, right? You don't hear about NBA players inviting the rest of their teammates to church.

It said whatever you want about it, right? He is a guy that by all accounts is a good guy. And, you know, in the words of me goes, walks it like he talks it, right? No doubt about it. I think, you know, for the Orlando Magic fans, shout out to Kevin Clark from the ringer. Yeah. The only magic fan on the planet that I know of. Kevin has always been sad talking about the way.

His mood gets down. It's very depressing talking basketball with Kevin Clark. But right now, I think Magic fans should be feeling pretty good because it's not just Isaac either. Mo Bamba's length on defensive end of the floor is altering shots around the room, even if he doesn't get a hand on it. I think their team is so long with Mo Bamba, Jonathan Isaac, Melvin Frazier out there, Wesleyan Duh, they are huge.

They cover the whole floor with just those four guys. Well, and let me ask you this. Add Aaron Gordon on with his new big contracts. Ooh, they get some nice little young players. Because what happens is everybody goes to the games to see Bamba and Isaac's the one you end up talking about. I will tell you, and you were king of the Bamba Lievers. The Bambolievers. You were the king of the Bambolievers.

Our producer Kyle's laughing at the back of that. You were the king of the bomb believers. And so I went to go watch him. And I'm not going to say I'm a full on Bamboliever. but I was very impressed. I was. I was chugging bomb a coolade before we got on this podcast. He's going to get pushed around.

Right? Like I think what's going to befell him is people are going to look at the paper and they're going to go four rebounds. Like what? Because he's going to have those games. He is. Once these guys, because he is, you can push him out of the way. He's 19 years old.

I think he just turned 20, but whatever. He's still a young kid and he hasn't, hasn't experienced NBA strength and conditioning program and all that stuff. He'll get stronger. It's going to come in time for all these bigs. But sometimes guys are a first punch guy, right? They throw the first punch. Ball's coming off the rim. Somebody bangs into somebody.

He's not that guy, right? He's the guy that typically gets banged. And so that will come, right? He'll certainly, when you're there in person, he is one of these guys, in my estimation, that you do need to see in person to fully appreciate because it is an absolute freak show how long he is. It's crazy.

I mean, you know, it's one thing to read like, oh, he's got an eight foot wingspan and it's the longest, like it's like Rudy Gobert's, whatever. Seven foot nine to be specific. Oh, is that right? When you see it in person, though, he's so much bigger than everyone, right? And he does well finishing heads.

I've watched him hit a corner three. I've watched him Dream Shake. It's like Tommy Hidson has a line where he says he can tie his shoes without bending over. Yeah. Skilled kid, though. He is. For sure. You know, Bomba, I think, you know, some of these bigs do look more impressive. Jaron Jackson has had some nice moments as well. Wendell Carter, another guy that I really, really liked. He's been pretty damn good for the Bulls. Oh, he's been great.

One of the knocks on him pre-drafts was like, oh, you know, defense is a concern. He's sluggish feet. And, like, I always thought that was a little bit overblown. And now that, like, his body looks a lot better. It looks like he's really trimmed some body fat since the end. of the season of Duke, which is to be expected when you're focusing exclusively on basketball. He's looking better defensively in addition to the fact that, like, he can do some things on offense. And we'll see how he pans out, but I'm encouraged early on. And Bulls fans should be too with a Carter, Marking, and front court, pretty fun. And I've made some excuses for the Duke

kids. Obviously, I was on the Bagley train in the whole defensive thing. Had you jumped off the train? Oh, hell no. Okay, good. I was going to say, don't. Even though I'm not on the bagley trams. I'm saying, don't jump off yet. No way. I ain't going anywhere. Don't, don't. But I've made excuses for them defensively because, listen, they played zone at Duke and people can use that against these kids. But the truth is, they're all freshmen, they're playing together for the first time. And zone

anybody that's ever played basketball, it's lazy. That's Coach K's fault. Coach Kee's fault. It's like, shout out to Mark Titus, letting us use his hotel or to record this. The one-shining podcast, guys. It's true. Like, Coach K, it's just like, they make a play, coach them up to play man. The zone defense

wasn't the fault of Bagley or Carter. It's put them on coaching. It's also the truth. truth that they it's hard to be extremely active when you're playing that way. In fact, I heard somebody, they interviewed Bagley and they were talking about the defensive Knox and he was saying, okay, so you guys want to talk about my blocks. I played on the side. Who said this? Bagley said this.

What about his reaction time? That's what I would say to him. What about your awareness? It's what he said, though. He said, if you want to talk about the blocks, right? Things get funneled to the middle, right? So Wendell Carter had a lot of blocks. And he said, when I was in the middle, I blocked a lot of shots.

He said, what do you want me to block? Sounds like excuses to me. It's not about your block shots. It's about your lean body. It's about your short arms. It's about your reaction time and your awareness. All right. Not to like.

Don't you slander. I know. I know. I know. I'm saying. I know. I know. It's different on the phone.

Yeah. Right here, we might throw fists. We might throw fists. Kyle, get ready to break this up. Let's go. Let's go right now. If this man knows not talking about. about Marvin Bagley in my face.

Let's go. All right. The other ones that have jumped off the page, I think we spent a tremendous amount of time on the Orlando Magic. Oh, one more thing real quick. Bomba, Isaac Gordon. Can they all three play together? Yeah, I think so.

Really? I think so. Give them time. Who's the three? Gordon. Doesn't matter. I mean, you can play. But isn't he best suited as a four?

Everybody is so small ball obsessed. You can play with size if they're skilled. Gordon is a skilled player. And he's so super young. Look, yes. These guys do need to improve their jump shots. Isaac needs to improve his three. Gordon needs to improve his three.

And Bobba needs to prove he's more than just a theoretical shooter. But, yeah, they can play together. It's because of their size and length, the defensive end of the floor and the fact that you can really mix and match them. You want to play Isaac at the five with Gordon at the four, play a super small ball, boom. Want to put Bamba at the five and play rim running center. Have Gordon at the four? Boom, you can do it.

There's so many different little things you could do that I think Orlando's new head coach, D. Clifford can get really, really creative with the combinations as those guys develop into their primes. Other ones that have been mega impressive, certainly there's been a tremendous amount of buzz on Kevin Knox.

Yeah, Kevin Knox. He's been great. He hasn't shot the ball well yet, which we'd like to see, but like he's doing all the other stuff. Like he had two plays I want to mention Chris. He had a play where he was, I think he cut baseline,

I believe, and he just whipped the pass to a corner three shooter. It's like a little thing like that more than just a scorer. And then a defensive end of the floor, he's been grinding, he's been hustling, defending multiple positions.

And that's something that, Mike Schmitz from Draft Express pointed out on Twitter before the draft. He's like, you know, so much focus on Knox at Kentucky and how he didn't really defend well there. He's like, well, when I saw him at this level, you know, at this competition, he was doing this, doing this, doing this, like look at these highlights. And it's like, yeah, at the high school level, he was awesome defensively. And perhaps we're going to see that now at the NBA level in addition to his scoring potential, which pretty clear lane for him to be a really good scorer. I was told before the draft that Calipari was calling all kinds of teams saying Kevin Knox is, he's the one off my team

he is he is going to be the real deal he was a big fan of his and you know Cal always does the tongue in cheek you know I didn't use him right or you know what I mean like the reason he didn't do as much

is because right like well because what you look what you look up and you see Carl Towns doing what he did more if you watch Carl Towns right if you watch him in Kentucky then watch them in the pros

if you watch Devin Booker Kentucky and then watch them in the pros A lot of these guys. Never ran pick and roll. Right. Much better suited. And Knox feels that way. It feels when you are watching him like, holy macro with a wide open game and more space out here on the floor.

He is much better suited for this. Oh, no doubt. Right. He's so athletic. Yeah. So athletic. And, you know, the shot hasn't really come yet. It's a small sample.

Just don't, don't, don't, you know, it's like the opposite of like Jaron Jackson. It's like, Jaron Jackson can shoot, but like, don't overreact to the 8.3 game. He's not, he's not like, Kyle, Carl, where he's not Stefan Curry shoot at half-court jumpers, but the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's encouraging. So when we were going into the draft, I kept telling you that we are going to look back

and we know there are going to be bust. There are no, there going to be guys that we go back in time and we go, my God, how was he selected there? Yes. Okay. Most of these guys that you have watched or I have watched so far and you go down.

And we've already mentioned Aiton, Bagger, Carter even not. I know where you're going with this. We haven't seen Luca. Okay. But if we're narrowing it down, first impressions of, oh my God, this could go really the wrong way. It has to be Trey. And I know everybody's saying, don't overreact. Summer League means nothing. I'm telling you this, Kevin, over the years, I have seen little guys absolutely kill it in Summer League. Nate Robinson's number is retired, all right? And whether it is Josh Selby.

They should retire Nate Robinson's number across the NBA to be fair. When a small guy that much can dunk over Yao Ming, let's be real hair. But when you see like Russ Smith out of Louisville and you see Josh Selby and you see all kinds of little guys over the year, it is so built for them. And in fact, the game is much harder in the NBA for those guys. You see them demolish Summer League and they get to the NBA. And the same crap they could do in Summer League they can't do when the competition gets real. And so that is the type of guy that has been really successful.

In fact, because it's kind of, you know, these games sometimes they feel like almost like All-Star games. It's bad for big guys. And so you don't want to read too much. Never feed them the ball. All these guards are shot. not real basketball. And you get to Chuck, right? I mean, I told you this.

I was worried when I, I remember on Selection Sunday, and their name popped up. And I said, what the hell? I said, I swear to God, I watched them. Every time I watched it for the last, like, two months, they lost every time. And then they said whatever, and I'm going to get this wrong. But it was something so extreme. They were like, Oklahoma lost 13 of their last 15 guys. I was like, what I?

And I remember when they said it. on TV. I was like, wait, they really did lose every time I watched them. Like, it wasn't just, they were really bad at the end of the season. And he wasn't hitting shot. You know what I'm saying? So it's not like, it's like, it's like Tray Young the shooter, Tray Young the shooter. Like it was like October, November, December. Yes. Not conference schedule. He was amazing to start the season. Yeah, he drew all the Stefan Curry comps and then it just fell apart. And it fell apart. People didn't recognize that he, nor that team, were, any good the last part of the season.

Well, that's part of it. His teammates weren't very good at Oklahoma. Here's the thing, Cap, this really comes down to whether or not you were a Trey Young believer or not, because if you're a Trey Young believer, you're saying this doesn't matter. And if you were a Trey, it's all confirmation bias. If you were a Trey Young skeptic, you go, yeah. Well, you know, and that's why I think you need to, you know, be cautious either way.

It's like with Trey Young, I agree with you 100% that I thought he was going to come with a summer league and just like kill. Because this is built for players like him just to dominate. And he has not done that. That's extremely concerning. And I think one of the things that's been a little bit overlooked with him is like, so Liam Flynn from cleaning of the glass had an article in early June before the draft about Trey Young's shooting at Oklahoma.

And his takeaway was primarily like that Trey's probably going to be a better shooter in the NBA than he was in college because of the fact of the high degree of difficulty of the shots that he was taken. Like he can shoot off screens potentially. He gets really good from like close to the line. NBA range. And the concerning part to me is the fact that he shot 27% from three outside of 30 feet. So like Steph Curry range, like deep threes. Like that's what helps separate Steph. Clay Thompson and like these elite, truly elite shooters is like their ability to knock down shots from super deep because you stretch the defense more, you're harder to defend. And Tray Young is not

an all-time great shooter. So we see the highlight of him shooting from the logo, but what we don't see is that he missed 70% of those. Taking those shots is one thing, but making them is another, and he is not proven that he is an all-time great shooter. I think that's, I think it's unfair to expect that from. I think he can become a great shooter. I think he'd be a

very good shooter, and maybe even one of the better shooters in a league, but I don't think he's going to be the best shooter in the league. I don't think he's going to be an all-time great shooter, and that's going to be the difference between him and Steph Curry, in addition to the fact that he's two inches smaller than Steph Curry, not as athletic as Steph Curry, doesn't

handle the ball as well as Steph Curry. If you're expecting Seth Curry from Trey Young, you're going to be disappointed. You need to be looking at more like maybe he can become Damien Lillard. And even that could be asking for a lot as well. Trey is going to be an NBA player with his shooting ability and his passing ability is quite good as well

and that's been pretty impressive. But the defense, the shooting is not all-time great. We'll see how he pans out. You also have to be able to finish. Yeah, you've got to be finish out of the room. And there's a lot of knocks, there's a lot of concerns with him. His rookie year is going to be a struggle. Put it that way. But it doesn't mean he'll be a bust because of his shooting potential. Well, and part of it is when we are talking

about how much more space can help you. I think that's why the little guys, right? We watched last year. And I think, you know what? I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of guys like this. More space helped Jason Tatum. More space helped Donovan Mitchell. In fact, I was talking to Kevin Pelton yesterday and I was talking to him about kind of just what analytics missed on some of these guys because the numbers going into the draft will tell you maybe a little bit different story. And he brought up some interesting points. He said, number one, he said both Tatum and Mitchell. And this was shocking to me.

If you go and look at their rookie year, their percentage in the restricted area was exceptionally higher than it was when they were in college. And so with Tatum, you could say, because he had more space, with Mitchell, he brought up a very interesting one. And I had never heard anybody talk about this before. He said in college, if you go back and watch, Mitchell was a two-foot leaper. And he learned how to jump off of one foot. Well, that's why stats are limited. And you need to scout. Right. And so he learned to jump off of one foot. And, and it changed everything. And in fact, I was talking to somebody last night,

a front office, an NBA front office guy last night. And I brought up the Mitchell thing, right? About the jumping off of two feet and then how that transferred, you know, that transferred to ability to finish at the rim. And Pelton told me that there's a kid like that this year. And he said, if you watch, he said it's Miles Bridges. And the interesting thing's going to be,

if Bridges can learn like Mitchell did to jump off two feet. And I mentioned this to this NBA front office guy. And you know what he said? He said, that's why I loved Acogee, the kid from Georgia Tech. Yeah, he's really good. There's a way for you. Yeah, I love Acogee. Okay.

Really good. He said the same thing, though. He's a two-foot guy. And I remember saying that in our meeting, if we can get this kid to jump off of one foot, right, the amount of stuff he's going to be. able to finish at the rim is going to change dramatically because you are restricted if you just think about it right you are restricted if you're a two foot leaper and so i thought that was a little bit interesting with mitchell i thought that was interesting with it'll be something to monitor with bridges

and also the acoji kid well with mitchell you know i think with mitchell you know i think with mitchell you know not only was he just like a two foot leper he also took a lot of wild shots right a lot of like you know and that's partially because he was more comfortable off two feet but you know i think some of it was shot selection with him as well. And I think with Mitchell, one of the things I liked about him is he was one of those guys who uses both hands. I always harp on like Ben Simmons only using his right hand around the rim and never using his right hand to shoot jumpers. And like he's a dominant finisher because of his size and athleticism. But for little guys, they don't necessarily have that advantage. Let me do like, I did not dominant. He's like very good finish with Ben Simmons. With Mitchell,

it's like he always finished with both hands left and right, always had touch. And he just cut down the wild shots improved as a one foot finisher at the rim and he's like added creative finishes as well so for some of those guys you mentioned like that can that can be what leads to greater success at finishing out of the room that's what can help them

when it comes to finishing against contact finishing off balance and I'll be very curious to see how that changes for Miles Burgess I think it's been a little bit encouraging for him early on too oh for sure yesterday I watched him have 20.7 rebounds no turnovers he looks athletic

superior to his opponents, right? You wonder, you know he's a freak of nature athletically in college. And I don't love him. I like him. I don't love him. But he's really good. He'll be a good player. When you watch him out on that court, though, he out jumps people, right? And he outruns people. And so does that, you wonder when you start to weed it down, right?

And you're not watching him play against Northwestern. No, no slander to Northwestern. I'm just saying there ain't Northwestern guys that are out there in this game, all right? And you watch him like, wow, he looks like an amazing athlete. Like he still looks like an amazing athlete when it's been weeded down to NBA prospects. You have me thinking about the stats part. It's interesting. So much of it is contextual too because is a player playing in a system with two big men where the lane is clogged, right?

You know, like so many little things. You know, that exact thing was brought up to me yesterday. So. One quick example. Yeah. So Terry Rozier years back, you have 2014 draft. He was somebody I wasn't very high on. And then like in early June when I like try to like erase my mind and look at things again like I've re-looked at Terry Rosair.

I was like, okay, I'm way too low on this guy. Bumped them up to like, you know, 30-ish or something like that. Maybe I think it was 20-ish actually, high 20s. And so I still don't love him, but I liked him a lot more. And he was somebody where it was like, oh, he played with two big men constantly clogging the lane. My hesitation with him was his touch still isn't that good. Like he still doesn't have great touch. And he still has a struggle is finishing in the NBA now.

better because he's playing with a space floor. Still not great, but better. And I think there's so many little things like that where you need to look at the context behind the number, or rather just look at the context and then like see what the number is. You know who the greatest example of that is?

And I brought this up to him because when that whole draft raider came out, Pelton broke it into two different columns, one of which was analytics and what the scouts say, right? Maybe the absolute worst player that you will find that was drafted highly, numbers wise, was Jalen Brown.

Oh, I'm trust me. I remember trust me. If you looked, if you based it upon the analytics from college, he was undraftable. Trust me. I remember. And he said, I remember. I remember being on Boston Sports Talk Radio like getting in arguments about Jalen Brown before the draft.

And here's what, here's what he said. And exact same thing. They played with two bics. And he said, and here's what. Ivan Robin, that other dude who escapes me at the draft. And he said, here's what we missed on him. That team was a joke. There's a lot of NBA talent on that team.

Ivan Rab drafted Jabari Bird on the Celtics, a pretty good two-way player. And they played very slow. Yeah, they were a disgrace to watch. I hate it. They had so much talent on that team. Shout out the Conto Martin. Oh, my God. What a pain watching that team.

So anyways, you know what Peltzad? If you isolated Jalen Brown's power forward minutes, I think that's what the Celtics did. If you isolated his power forward minutes while he was at California, you will see a radically different player than when he played small forward and was out on the floor with the two big guys. And that's what it misses, right? It's almost like sometimes you got to do stuff like that, right? You go back and you look and isolate when he wasn't out there with the two big guys.

And that would have told you he's really good. I mean, like even like with the NBA draft guide, like sometimes I'm like, why do we even put the numbers there? I know, right, like the basic box score stats. It's just, that's why we have, like, the per 40 below and, like, the effective field goal percentage and so, like, points and all that. Because it's, like, at least it's a little bit more valuable, like, to project the guy ahead. But even then, it's like, I don't know. I mean, I honestly am somebody where I don't really care much for college stats. I just don't.

I never have been. There's little things you got to look for sometimes. But oftentimes, it's like you mentioned, your conversation with Pelton, it's more contextual. try to look for instances where like the guys playing the four or playing the five or what's what's going to better reflect what the circumstances environment will be in the NBA for that particular player and that's incredibly difficult to do because there's only 30-ish games for each college player so then like if you're like you know if you're putting all these like settings in right so like say I want this I want this it's like oh you might have like 80 minutes of a sample it's like it's so ultimately it doesn't mean a lot that's why I mean I'm somebody who with college primarily, I think you need to scout more than anything else. With NBA, there's so much more data that's available. You have synergy. Well, you have synergy for college too, but you might have a wider sample, larger sample.

You have second spectrum for NBA teams. You have so much at your disposal. You have the athletic testing, all that stuff that teams have, where there's just so much more that you can use to do pro personnel scouting to figure out guys. Whereas college, it's like, just going to watch, I think, really. One of the other interesting things that has taken place, throughout here, through Summer League is everybody goes and watches this rookie class

who we were all excited about. One of the narratives has not been, which I think certainly is worth bringing up. Typically when you come to this, you're watching first and second year guys. But last year's class was so damn good. We see none of them. We don't see,

obviously we're not seeing Tatum, we're not seeing Mitchell, we're not seeing, we're not seeing, you go up and down that list. We're not even seeing morey marketing. We're not even seeing guys like Dylan Brooks, who was still.

elected in the second round, right? I mean, like, guys played a lot of minutes last year. It's almost surprising when we do see guys. Right? That's why Isaac stands out like a sore thumb. Isaac reminds me of Brandon Ingram last year. Jetty Ozman, I said a third year player. I forget, but second year player because I remember last summer,

Ty Lou, or Ty Lou was asked him you watched Jetty Ozum. He was like, nope. So, yeah, last year was Jetty's first year in the NBA. Even someone like him, he had a big game the other night. So did Korkmas? Yeah, yeah. At the very beginning of this thing, right? He lit it.

I mean, but you see the difference. I remember Brandon Ingram played at the very beginning and then got that injury scare and they never saw them again. Yeah. The one guy we might could have seen was the number one pick overall. And that is Markell Fullerton. I know you are keenly aware and interested in a recent story about him. Yeah, I mean, like there was a story posted on S.I. and ESPN. I guess there was like a room full of like five.

I don't know how many reports, but with Brett Brown and the team owner Josh Harris. just talking about like, oh, Markell Fultz, we, you know, at the end of every season, we talked to the player and, you know, we proved him working with Drew Handlin and all that. He's coming along so great, you know, blah, blah, this and that. And it's like, what's the point of, like, you tell him this to the media? Like, why bring a, why bring a handful of reporters in to tell him this? It's just, it's a weird little thing to do. And I, um, conspiracy theory, I have no reason to say this other than my own conspiracy is like, maybe you're just trying to increase his trade value. by putting this out there. Can I say, hey, Fultz is coming along. Can I sell you out completely? Sure. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you that me and Kevin were sitting together at a game.

And I know the exact moment that Kevin bailed completely on Markell Fultz. Oh. Oh. Hey. Let me say this before you say it. I would never, I would never bail completely on a 19-year-old number one pick. You were done. You were done.

Kevin, I'm not done. I'm not done. Mark L. Fultz was whooping down cheese fries on the front row at the game. I mean, whooping them at a pace of a man who had not eaten in weeks. Like he had been walking through the desert, devoid the food and water. And Kevin said, look at Fultz eating those cheese fries. I'm done. I'm done.

He was, okay. Let me let me let me. Let me just, let me just, let me just, let me just, let me just, let me just, let me just correct the record here. He was, he wasn't wolfing him down. He was eating one in a time. But he was doing them at, it was doing it at rapid pace. Yeah, sure. With Mark, like he can eat how he can't. He can eat how he wants. No, we can. Not in your opinion. This was, this was, this was Kevin, this is, Kevin O'Connor, the scout. And he said, look at him eating those fries. I'm done, Chris.

I want to make a joke. I want to make a joke. I can't say it. I said, you're out on Markell Fultz because of the cheese fried. I'm out. You know what? That was the moment. I'm going to tell you, Kevin, that I was very excited about you.

And like if people say, oh, he's just a guy that lies on the stats too much. That was a very old school scout take. Well, I'll tell you what. That is the old guy in the crowd, the old school scout that says, look at the way he eats cheese fries. This is a massive red flag. I got a better one for you. I got a better one.

Last year at Summer League, last year at Summer League, I was sitting near the, I think it was, Sixers, Lakers, whoever it was. I think I put this in the ringer slack at the time. I tweet about it because it would have seemed like obsessively weird, but I'll say it now. So on the Jumbotron at Summer League last year, there was a kiss cam,

and it was a pretty good kiss cam. It was funny, right? So I was looking up at the kiss can that I looked at the Sixers bench. A lot of players were looking up at the kiss cam Which I probably shouldn't have been And a lot of people around me in the crowd Were giggling and laughing And I was looking at Markell Fultz on the bench

Looking up at the kiss cam He had a blank face on the entire time And everybody around me was like bursting out and laughing I wasn't looking at the kiss cam So it might not have been funny But Markell With everybody laughing around me Markle on a straight face on

It was just an interesting little moment Where it's like everybody's laughing Except for Markell So he is a humorless guy Who eat cheese fries in a diabolical way. No, Markle, Markle,

I feel like we are. Can't see. There's just bringing red flags flying off the guy. Well, with Markell, I just have to say this. With Markell Fultz, he was number one,

number one on everybody's board for good reason. He's a big guard, the strong body, who can defend, who can rebound, who has athleticism, who can create off the dribble,

who has a good handle. Admit you're out on us. Don't talk about it. admit you're out on him. I am talking about right now. You don't want to sit here. I'm setting up my point. Markell showed everything this season after returning from his battle with the yips at the end of the season.

He showed literally everything that made him the number one pick except for the jump shot. So like the maturity, the eating, you know, all that shit, right? You can, you know, I'm not too worried about it because over time he's going to get older. He's going to mature. What I am still worried about is the jump shot. And the Sixers said yesterday, right? the group of reporters that he looks better. If he looks better, that's extremely encouraging Drew Hanlon's one of the best trainers,

if not the best trainer, out there. Working with Drew is a smart move from Arkell Fultz. But until he proves that he can shoot in a game situation, when he's tired, when pressure's on, it's a little bit scary for him moving forward because that is such an integral part of what made him a top prospect. So if you're the Spurs or Sixers yourself or any other team that might be trying to trade for him, I'd have hesitations until you see him out there on the court.

And on the flip side of that, you can say the same thing about Kauai, until he comes back after playing only nine games last season, until he proved he's still that two-way elite, you know, Hall of Fame level talent as, you know, player, I'd be scared to dump everything out there for him. So if you're the Sixers, and you do truly believe that Markell's making immense progress as a shooter, maybe you're like, no way we're trading this guy for Kauai Leonard. There's no way we're doing it because of how he's looking this.

summer, right? Because they also would want to see Kauai. It goes both ways. And like, that's why with this Kauai Leonard stuff, I am just fascinated by like the negotiation battle that's going to go on with these teams trying to get him. Because until you see him, I don't know how to value him. Until you see Markell, I don't know how to value him either.

It's really nuts. You know, I mentioned this last week that I thought, number one, they've got the assets and number two, those two guys, that the friendship between the Spurs organization and Brett Brown is something that can make it happen. And then to go a little bit further. trust, I'm sure. The other thing is you did wonder, once the Paul George thing took place and he re-uped with Oklahoma City, you wondered if that was a chance. People can keep on saying, hey, he's going to L.A., he's going L.A., he's going to L.A. We did all of that last year with Paul George and Oklahoma City. It's a rental. He's going to L.A. He's going to L.A. And you see the way when push comes to shove, the way that one played out, that maybe it does, right? Even having him for a year with the ability to win and recruit.

with said player that might actually be able to work out. Also, a guy that he trusts theoretically. I assume his relationship with Brett Brown is a reasonable. Why? Yeah, sure. I mean, you can look at it that way or you can say, oh, Brett Brown's tight with Brett Crawford. I don't want anything to do with Brett Brown.

I mean, like that's possible. That's like an elementary school style, like we're looking at things. But like not much changes from our school days to when we're older sometimes. Sometimes we retain that mindset over the years. And, you know, I think really the other underlying fact to Chris is that Dr. Glasshow, the doctor that Kauai saw when he was rehabbing in New York, he did it under the care of the Sixers chief medical officer. So if the Sixers can know more than anybody else, maybe even more than the Spurs, what Kauai's Health will look like moving forward. But Kevin O' conspiracy thinks that they talked about Mark Lofoltz being able to hit shots yesterday because. I just don't understand why.

Like, what's the point? What's the point? People want an update and they want to be able to combat your cheese fry story. But what's the point? Okay, look, if you, if you, Chris, when they've got that kind of information out there, not laughing at a kiss, can I'm eating cheese fries in a diabolical way, they need some good press. Well, Chris, here's the thing. If you're hired as Memphis Grizzly's drone manner tomorrow, right? Might be.

A couple, who knows, a couple years from now, one of your players, you know, let's just say Jared Jackson hasn't, You know, he's going some funky injury type of thing and he's going to rehab his jump shot. And he's doing over the summer. Would you want to draw attention to that when he has already proven like, oh, wow, you know, do you want him doing it behind closed doors? Or do you want to put more public pressure

on setting an expectation that, hey, he's looking awesome. He's looking great. I don't think you want to set that expectation for fans. I think that's almost unfair to the player in a way. That's fair. That's why I think maybe it's a negotiating ploy, just to put that out there into the world that he is looking tremendous. And I could be dead ass wrong.

Everybody seems to be indicating that he's improved. He's revising his mechanics. Drew Hanlon's a great coach. I just don't see the incentive to do it. That's all. Last thing, Kevin. What has been your favorite part of Las Vegas? You know, hanging out with everybody from the ringer, really,

and seeing like all the fans of the ringer saying hello and showing their support. It's just like both sides of that have just been like so fulfilling like even like little things like walking walking around their arena and someone like you know shouting out rigor or like shouting out my name or like just saying hello saying like we love what you do people saying adjacent conception and they love you know NBA desktop right um like we had a booth there on Friday and Saturday uh Liz Kelly was there and Alex Lee and Juliet Litman and Stephanie Snowden like a lot of people um A lot of people came through. And it was just cool to see a lot of fans. And then, like, at night, you know, hanging out with people from the ringer.

Like, we went to karaoke. Right. On Saturday night, Sunday night, whatever night it was. Me and five other ringer people. And then Titus and Tate came by later in the night with Tommy Alter. That's cool. It was a little dive bar off the strip. Like, everybody, like, put it this way.

There's a lot of really good singers at this karaoke bar. Yeah? It was like not like it was not like low level karaoke. There was like this one guy who sang. Ah, escape. There's this one guy. There's this one guy who needs to get signed. And I wish I got his name.

It's really good. Kevin O. Talent Scout. Yeah. I mean, you're there. Good performances too. Boy, if you were with a Columbia House records or whoever, you could have walked right up there and giving them a deal. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's like with basketball. This is not normal karaoke. It's like with basketball. There's more to being a successful basketball player than skill. It's like you also need to figure out what kind of people that these musicians and singers are as well. We need to interview before you sign them to a deal. It was.

If Columbia Records wants to give me a call, I'm open to it. Yeah. I love music. It was awesome to get to that first night with Bill doing his podcast at Caesar's Palace. It was my opportunity. I got to meet everybody. Yeah. No kidding.

I've never met. You know, I've had, I've communicated with these people for so long over the year. whether it is Concepcion or Joe House or I mean everybody is there everybody is there and there's a picture that was out there and then there was a picture of us and it was very interesting to me okay let me just let me just do a couple things real quick number one I am old I just look y'all right so everybody is like I thought he was old that's a good thing I don't understand I thought he was old I'm not 50 right but somebody it was funny um Somebody tweeted after the picture.

They were like, I thought he was 40. I hope I have like no wrinkles without your age. They said, they said, I thought he was 40. And I was like, should I respond and say, I'm really close? Like, I'm really. Are you not allowed to say your age right now? I don't get. I'm 39.

Cool. Yeah. When you turned 40? When did you work? I don't want to talk about that. Why? Because that is the moment, right? Why, who cares?

I'm going to go through a horrible. But you have a youthful spirit. Yeah, but I'm going to go through a horrible moment. You have a youthful spirit. I am. You look younger than your age? which is all good things. No, listen, I don't mind looking younger than my age,

but it was fascinating that nobody thinks I look how I sound, right? Nobody. And the funniest ones were either I was 100% sure that Chris Varnan was a black guy, or I was 100% sure that Chris Vernon was really old. Yes, yes, I saw those sweets. It was like, and then I was an old black guy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And you're a 30-year-old white guy. Right. So anyway. You're not six foot eight. No, and I'm not six foot eight. Getting to meet everybody from the ringer and then be around everybody all week. Yeah, shout out to Mark Titus, who somehow got this amazing sweet.

Why are they taking care of Titus so much of Caesars? Well, you know, Titus asked for it. I got one more. I guess so. Also shout out to Caesar's Palace as well, right? Because, you know, they, we recorded long stuff in Seasers the whole week. They were great. Very accommodating.

It's very, very, I've never been in Seasers, I don't think. I remember last year walking around, I was in Vegas for the first time. Oh, it's great. I don't think I've walked around Seasers. It's very nice in here. I like it. Oh, it's chill. It's chilling yet.

It's fun. Nice restaurants too. And getting to do a podcast in person with you is an absolute treasure. We made it all the way through without getting at each. I think we're friendly or in person. Yeah. Right? I think so too.

I think we're friendly or in person. Bow to Colin Sexton. Yes. No, bow to him. Yeah, he looks good. It looks pretty good. I wanted to try to get you mad before we left. Yeah.

He looks good. He doesn't eat cheese fries. I asked a little. Really? You did. Okay. No, I did. I mean, you should ask him.

It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. Thanks to everybody for listening. This one from Las Vegas, thanks to Caesar's Palace. And we will talk to you next week.