The Ringer NBA Show - Jrue Holiday Trade Rumors With Scott Kushner and the Knicks' Future With Mike Vorkunov | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 4, 2020

The Times-Picayune’s Scott Kushner joins Justin, Rob, and Tjarks to talk about this morning’s Jrue Holiday trade rumors (1:55). Then, The Athletic’s Mike Vorkunov joins the show to discuss the Knicks’ draft options and potential offseason moves (32:50).  Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Jonathan Tjarks Guests: Scott Kushner and Mike Vorkunov Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly MBA group discussion, where we talk about how the only thing that can bring this nation together is an NBA trade rumor. I am Justin Verrier, joining me today, Jonathan Charks. I mean, a weird day to talk basketball, but I guess life goes on. It does indeed. Rob Mahoney is here. But does it counterpoint? I mean, it will for this podcast at the very least. It's all we know. And joining us today to talk about said trade rumor from New Orleans. He writes for, I believe it's now the advocate slash the Times, Picayune. Is that correct, Scott Kushner? Correct. It's a slash and all.com. So all the slashes that you'd like to put in there, we'll take them all. Beautiful. So we're going to talk with Scott today about the Drew Holiday

rumor, trade rumor that came down like manna from heaven this morning as we parsed through some of these early election results and just everything else going on in the world. We're time to be recording a podcast. Let's just say that up front, but we're going to do the best to perhaps give you something else to just take your mind off what's going on or just, I don't know, maybe just clip and save this one for later. But we're going to talk about Drew Holiday up top. Then Mike Forkinoff from The Athletics is going to join us in the back end of the podcast to talk about the Knicks. We'll talk about that and more right after this. So we have the biggest story in our nation right now. According to Shams Sharania, the New Orleans Pelicans are openly

discussing Sar, Drew Holiday and Trade Talks and several contending teams are pursuing. Thank you to Shams for doing this ahead of our recording because the past two weeks we've had to scramble just to get the news back into this podcast. But Scott, you're there on the ground. Let's start here first. Are you surprised by this report? No. The, uh, Drew. holiday sweepstakes or rumors or whatever you want to call it has been going on for a very long time. The idea that now they're aggressively shopping, don't really understand what the difference is between them, you know, being open to trading him for particularly long time. It makes me question the motivation of exactly where that kind of prompt comes from for a

national media person to want to put that out because I don't think based on anything, anyone that I've talked to or anything of that nature, there's any material change that's actually occurred. But there usually is a motivation behind that report coming out. But yeah, this is not surprising in the least. He's their most tradable asset. By far, it has been for about a year. So did you expect him to get moved before next season started? I did initially. And then when they hired Stan Van Gundy, I thought that's a guy who would really like to coach someone like Drew Holiday. And that like in that negotiation, I could see him being like, you got to give me at least three, four months with Drew to see what we're doing here. And just he's the exact Stan Van Gundy type

of player. He's a loves to be coached. He loves to play defense. Like he's obviously a veteran guy. Like there's so many pieces that connect Drew Holiday and Stan Van Gundy in a way that Alvin Gentry and Drew Holiday never really connected. Like they're two very different types of personalities when it comes to, you know, their philosophies on the court. So I did expect that to kind of hold this off a little bit. And it turns out, what, like a week after his press conference now, we've got this report coming out. And usually these reports are not followed up by,

all right, everything's going to be fine. And then they're going to put the snake back in the can, and we're all good. But I don't, it makes me now think that he'll probably get moved before the start of the season, whatever that might be. Especially because we had just talked about, I think last week on this podcast, and I think a lot of people had also talked about this.

Just it seemed like if the NBA was going to restart its season so quickly, that maybe just shaking things up significantly probably wasn't the best approach. Rob, you wrote about this last week. I mean, I guess we shouldn't be surprised considering all news at this point is a whiplash, just both in the NBA and elsewhere. But this would probably take a team like a Denver, maybe the Nets. We could talk about some of the options later,

but it would essentially force a team to really scramble to not only get Drew in the system, but also, I don't know, make sense of things if they're planning on playing, let's say even if they're playing in January to start with. Yeah, I mean, it's going to take some time and some coordination just to get a guy like him in for camp, depending on how the free agency and off-season periods really play out. But this is the kind of player you dangle out there, that you quote-unquote shop aggressively. I'm trying to think of the last thing I shopped aggressively for, if not Drew-Pon-A. but maybe flower at the beginning of the pants guy.

I mean, who doesn't love a good pair of pants? So it's probably not nice sweatpants, maybe. But, you know, he's the kind of player you put on the market that you take calls on because he makes sense for everybody. He makes sense next to almost any guard in the league for almost any kind of high level competitive team. And even if you're a team that's on the fringe of the playoff hunt, like you could talk yourself into a Drew Holiday. The question is, does Drew want to play for those teams? I suspect not as much. Yeah, I almost wonder if the type of situation,

where the market is so barren with tradable stars right now. And you have a lot of teams positioned where they only need like that third or fourth high level guy. The Warriors, for instance, are probably looking for someone if they wanted to trade that second pick. The Nets might want to package together that Spencer Dinwiddies, that Jared Allen's, those guys, just careful Slavert in order to get more of a veteran guy next to KD and Kyrie. Denver, obviously, is considering trying to take a leap. So the market seems prime for that move. But I don't know.

Charks, what do you think about New Orleans position here? Because if I am David Griffin, who apparently wasn't watching John King along with the rest of us last night, wouldn't you want someone like Drew going forward, especially considering how bad that defense has been just in the Alvin Gentry era? Well, if he wasn't watching last night, he's a smarter man than us. I'll see that off the top. I think it makes sense because I look at it like this Pelicans team, it's a young team, right? Drew's in a much different timetable.

And from Drew's perspective, I would think he's probably trying to maximize his next one, two or three years. He could be a free agent next summer. And I'd be worried if I was New Orleans that he might just walk. So to me it makes a lot of sense to move on from him and build a team around Zion on the same timetable as Zion.

While you had the most leverage possible. How long would it take us to get a Drew Holiday trade needle on the site to get our design team working up somewhat likely, very likely? I mean, it doesn't really matter how much it moves at this point, but let's get that project in the works. Listen, I got to say the needles are faring much better than some other designs these days. I have faith in the needle again, just like I have faith in the pelicans to pull this off here. I mean, well, one thing I do want to talk about, Scott, just because you're there. it seemed very pointed when Griffin took the job. And even most recently at this press conference, when they were introducing Stan Van Gundy, they never really suggested that this is going to be a

rebuilding project. Like, I took note that as soon as Griffin took the job, like, he was saying, we could probably compete now. And last year, they definitely signaled, like, we were going to try to make a run for the playoffs. And it doesn't seem like the type of place that would want to take that step back, or at least optically, not concede that they're not going to compete right now. So those things kind of clash. If they are going to trade for someone, let's start here, would you expect it to be just like a long-term young guy or would they probably be looking to fill more?

I mean, those young veterans, as Dell Dems loved, is that the route there? I don't think they'll go to a super veteran. I don't think you're going to get even value back considering exactly what they need and how jumbled up their positioning is right now in the West. I mean, there's so many teams kind of backlogged right there between what, six and 14 that seem to all be able to compete.

I don't think you're going to get anyone that is obviously going to push you there next season, nor do I think it really makes much of a difference to do that. But you also don't go higher Stan Van Gundy. You also don't kind of make the moves of getting JJ Reddick and Derek favors and all those kinds of things without thinking you're going to win in the near term. there were a lot of ways the team could have intentionally been bad last year, or at least been super young and had growing pains, they'd a loss, played Nikiel Alexander Walker a lot,

played Jackson Hayes a lot, and it would have been fine. They were going to fire Alvin Gentry almost no matter what. So it really didn't, like, they were doing things to build it for a playoff team that didn't end up coming together because of injury or they just weren't good enough, whatever it might be. But yeah, they are not conceding the concept of them being a good team,

but I also don't think there's anything really available that you can trade Drew and immediately up your wins for next season. So I do think a rookie scale contract, I think a pick is probably what's best in the cards. And I think just where Drew Holiday fits in this team in his, not only his timeline, but just what he is as a person, like they need a more vocal guy to be their leader. That was very obvious last year. You don't lose 13 straight games that avoid of leadership at some level. Drew is an awesome guy.

He's one of the most stand-up people I've dealt with in the NBA. He is going to be a perfect second or third piece on a really good team. I think he's an ideal fit in a lot of places. I don't think he's an ideal fit in New Orleans right now, especially with the roster they have and the position out they're in. Scott, my question is, like, if you were trying to get a type of player to fit around Zion and Ingram, like what kind of player would you want,

just in terms of like the skill set? Yeah, I personally think they need a ball handler. I'm kind of in the minority in that opinion. I think Lonzo Ball is not a real point guard. He doesn't attack enough. He is scared of going to the rim. You don't have that guy. Now, do those Chris Paul type of point guards exist anymore?

That's kind of a hard thing to find. I don't necessarily know if that's available. But I do think they need like a lead ball handler because Brandon Ingram isn't that guy. And Zion, William is certain isn't that guy. Neither of them kind of command the ball for a whole possession. You don't need the ball on either of them for 20 plus seconds. So go get someone who you can believe in and someone who's going to scare defenses by the idea they're going to attack the rim, get fouled, or can hit a three-pointer. Lonzo ball doesn't really do either of those off the bounce at least well enough.

And so you can't play Drew and Lonzo together, in my opinion, for the long term. So getting rid of Drew now, seeing what Lonzo can do in that position, and then kind of figuring out what you do with him. it's just kind of a tricky, as they all are, it's a tricky situation, but considering Drew's value comparatively to everybody else that they would possibly have in the trade market, it's not really close. They probably should have traded Drew Holiday last summer. But that was when, if you remember, David Griffin was saying he's a possible MVP candidate. That was on the ringer.com. Yeah.

That was a great headline for a lot of people. and you know, he had like Drew is able to dominate in stretches. We saw the playoff series against Portland. He was phenomenal in there. And there was that stretch after AD had requested his trade and was being a, you know, let's just call it what it is. He was being an asshole. And Drew basically took over the team and played really well in games they shouldn't have won.

So he has that ability in him, but you cannot rely on that as like a, you know, your best player type of thing. I think David Griffin overestimated that. and I think a lot of GMs would have overestimated that. They traded him last summer. But I also understand why you needed to experiment, see how he played Next Design and Ingram and this whole new nucleus. Yeah.

And a lot of ways, Drew is the perfect compliment to what New Orleans has and probably just not ideal. Because he almost seems like his destiny is to be like the fourth guy or just like your amazing like fifth guy so he could focus on just wreaking havoc on defense and doing some stuff on offense that's more complimentary to what you have. And so when you have someone like Zion, Brandon Ingram, who's going to want the ball a lot and some of these other guys who need the ball, Drew is great. But paying him as much as you need to pay him and almost like trying to build around him seems a little bit more difficult than bring him into what you have existing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is his best skill is just his versatility and his flexibility. and perhaps that's not as valuable with the Pelicans right now as it is with a more veteran team. And so I guess that begs the question, where is probably the best fit for him and what team would have the most to offer New Orleans? Rob, do you have a sense of like, if you were running the Pelicans right now, which team would be your first call? I mean, I think you start with the usual suspects, the nuggets, the bucks, all these teams that have been out there in the ether looking for exactly a player like Drew. the question with them is do they really have enough to make it worth the Pelicans while. Like those packages, while interesting to people like us because of what they would do for the nuggets or the bucks or teams like that, I'm not super compelled by them if I'm the Pelicans.

Like Gary Harris and Will Barton and a pick, like that's okay. Like I'm not turning up my nose at it necessarily, but I'm going to keep it moving. I'm on to the next call. I'm investigating what else is out there. That's where it gets tricky because I think there are a lot of teams that will want true, but how many of them are really in a position to give the kind of offer that Scott was talking about, where it's not only a couple of picks or a pick and a player on a rookie scale deal who's promising, some teams are just going to be out of the running.

Like the Clippers, it would be great from a basketball perspective. See Drew Holiday on the Clippers, but they owe draft picks until like the death of the sun to Oklahoma City. Like it's just not going to happen in terms of the assets you would need to get a player this good. So I was just kind of looking around teams. I think, you know, I think it would be nice to one of your quote-unquote young veteran. Like that would be nice. I'm thinking maybe like I'm looking at two guys,

either Karish Levert and Brooklyn or Tyler Hero. I think though a young guard with some playmaking ability and shooting, that's the kind of guy I'd want for Drew. No, I want Tyler Hero in New Orleans. I think that would be phenomenal. Only for my own personal gain, I think he is just incredible. He's electric to watch and to cover.

So I am 100% in on Tyler Hero. Yeah, all the people you've named there make a lot of sense. There is really a question of where the value is. Everybody that I'd ever talked to, and this is going back last year, toward the deadline when the Drew trade stuff is picking up, Griffin said he wasn't going to deal him publicly, but he was obviously listening to offers and whatever.

And everyone I talked to that was dealing with the Pelicans was like, they are treating him like he's a first team all-NBA player, or he's like an all-star starter. It's like the guy hadn't been an all-star in like 10 years. He's not the way New Orleans thinks of him and the way the rest of the league think of him. And really the way reporters and players think of him compared to the way that his actual output is are two very different things. He's got a very interesting little halo around him that he hasn't really been part of a lot of winners. He's never really gotten a lot of personal accolades beyond a couple all-defense teams and one all-star spot from a good half season.

and yet this is like a big topic that he might get traded. And it's like, I don't understand why he's thought of as highly as he is other than just like he generates a lot of respect for the way he plays. So I don't know if that's worth it to other GMs necessarily when they start thinking about guys who they've developed and guys who have clearly helped them win to get to a point where they're in contention as it stands. Yeah, he's every blogger's favorite NBA player. True.

For sure. That's true. And I mean, he's one of my favorite. players too. And to echo what Scott said earlier, he's also like a total mensch, like just a prince of a guy. So like everyone, I want to see this guy do well, but you're right. He's a weird person to figure out like what is appropriate value because you probably don't have the Ben Simmons or Joel and B discussion. Definitely not now and probably not ever. It just seems like a lot to give up for him. But is Michael Porter Jr. too much to give up? I really would probably, that's kind of in the range.

and I would be worried about fitting MPJ next to Brandon Ingram and Zion just considering how many shots Michael Porr Jr. is going to just gobble up, just maybe even not being given, but just taking them away from all of these people. But he would be, I think, the first player I would target because he seems getable and injuries probably diminishes value enough where you're probably getting in the right range. Charks, what do you think about that fit? You've made a few MPJ trade machine visits these days. Do you think like getting Drew into Denver would make sense for that team? Do you think MPJ is the type of player they should really be targeting? I mean, MPJ for sure is the most upside. It's just such a complicated question with him.

Because you're wondering if Denver's trading Michael Porter now, are they getting out ahead of something medically? Right? You got to worry about that. That'd be the first thing, right? You just got to see what's his medical situation actually. And I think the chemistry thing is a real concern. Because like whatever team Michael Porter Jr. is going to, it's now his team, in his mind at least, right?

Like he's not coming somewhere else. He's not leaving Denver to be a third option. He's leaving Denver to be a superstar. So that's a real concern too, I think. I'm kind of operating under the assumption too that as some reports have indicated that Michael Porter's kind of untouchable there, that they really want to hold on to. Maybe that's me falling for the Nuggets leverage. But I kind of believe the motivations there in terms of if you're, if you're you're already a conference finalist level team and you have this guy who could turn out to be really good or you could, you know, there are a team that could absorb his negative, his downside and still come out pretty well.

I think the nuggets, I mean. You're all saying bowl. Bull ball straight up. After passing him with like five different picks last year, trade your holiday for him. Because I would say too, if you're training Michael Porter and your Denver, you want someone who can guard LeBron James, right?

And Drew can't do that. So that's that kind of limits how much teams will give up for him, I think. Because, like, Drew is a great defender for guards. But he's not going to defend your 6-8-69 superstars either. You know, I looked this up because we talked about this the other day. So last season, other than Luca Donchich, according to NBA stats, LeBron was the player that Drew guarded the most.

I can't speak to, like, the quality of that defense, but I thought it was interesting. Perhaps that's just, like, New Orleans's roster construction. They really didn't have someone to throw at LeBron. but I don't know if it's out of the question. I do think like he could body up people like that, and he probably gives you more, I don't know, switchable size than we think,

but you're probably right. At this point, does a team like Denver need to plan for who they're going to have to face in the playoffs? Are they at that point? He certainly had to guard bigger players because the Pelicans have not had anybody else defensively for years. I mean, he guarded Kevin Durant in the play.

playoffs. I mean, it was... Where's Quincy Pondexer, man? Where is Solomon Hill? Yeah, I mean, the Pelican stride for years to go get someone to help draw and not have to cover threes and fours. And ultimately, they kept throwing him on threes and fours. And Alvin Gentry would basically have to apologize in postgame be like,

we're putting an impossible job on this guy. But that's why, I mean, there are very few playoff things to look at. But when they played Portland, he was awesome because he could guard. Damian Lillard and C.J. McCollum, guys who he can really shut down. And then when he had to guard Kevin Durant in the next round, and like you said last year, he had to guard LeBron four times, where he got gobbled up. You know, they went 0 and 4 against the Lakers for a reason.

Well, there were several reasons, but that was one reason. And there's just no real place for him to guard that type of Kauai and LeBron and Durant, who was probably the separator between any team and winning a championship, right? So it's a difficult spot, but he is, whenever you talk to any opposing player, any time about Drew, like they just fawn over his defense endlessly and how incredibly strong he is for his size and how, you know, locked in he is and all this kind of stuff. And when you watch the Pelicans play defense and they suck at it, you really wonder how you can have one guy that's that good at defense. And then like the rest of the team be so bad. So it's really kind of a complicated, I think it's a more complicated answer than I've ever.

really given it the time to think about. I wonder, too, how that player opinion of Drew could goose his trademark it a little bit because he certainly, it's almost become a meme where every player who goes on any kind of podcast when they're asked, like, who's the most underrated player, who's the best defender? Like Drew is always the guy they name.

And if LeBron James wants Drew Holiday on his team, all of a sudden the Lakers are motivated to move heaven and earth to make that happen. You could do the same exercise for Superstar X with whatever team. If opinion of him is that high, maybe the market even gets bumped up because of that. See, that's why I think a player GM in Brooklyn, that seems to me is like the logical destination, right?

Well, yeah, let's talk about the Brooklyn one because that seems like a natural fit. So you would, let's just say that Brooklyn throws everybody on the table here, Spencer Dinwiddie, Karras Levert, Jared Allen. We talked about this a couple weeks ago. So Levert, obviously, a good player, but again, injury concerns there.

He's going to want the ball. Spencer Diddy probably like solves your your problem that Scott was talking about earlier about having a ball handler. Perhaps it has more upside than we've seen. But then Jared Allen, maybe he overlaps with what you're getting at center there already with Jackson Hayes. And so you have two players who aren't clear fits with Zion. And then you have Dinwiddie who's pretty good. So I don't know. I think like in terms of assets maybe, but I don't if you're you're trying to plant

specifically about who is good around Zion. Is this really like the package that we think would be the best? There's just no telling what this team actually needs. They played like 15 games together. So we don't know, like we asked Stan Van Gundy on his press conference. Like, what do you think Zion is? And he's like, I have no idea. He's like, there's so many things that can still be moved around.

He's like, I don't know, he's a four or five. or we can get a little bit of both. And so, like, how can you, I don't think you don't do anything because Jackson Hayes is there. I think that, like, if you're going to go get a player who can play in the NBA, like Alan, then, you know, I think that should be part of it. I don't think they need to necessarily worry about their current roster, as is, with the exception of Ingram and Zion. So I think you need to have someone who's not a volume shot taker, but someone who is good from the perimeter and someone who can probably help protect the rim when you need to. go bigger. But other than that, I don't think you can really base

anything on what this current roster really has at the moment. And I don't think Stan Van Gundy has a lot of opinions on it. And honestly, I don't know if David Griffin is that married to anybody on there with the exception of those two guys. Well, the Pelicans almost have

like a too many guys, corollary. You know, where like you're saying, Ingram and Zion, those are the guys you're kind of investing it. Other than that, there's a lot of NBA level or kind of rotation or fringe rotation level talent. Yeah. And if that's what you're building your mind frame around, like this is our team,

I think you're going to drive yourself insane. Yeah. I mean, Frank Jackson just like didn't play. And like, I don't know if he's good, but I don't think anyone knows that he's good. He's not good. That's what I said. I think the most terrifying option, though, is the Miami one. Now, it gets a little complicated because Drew's player option for not next season,

but the following season could cut into Miami's cap space if they did have dreams of getting honest. But if you came to some sort of agreement, which I'm sure would never happen in advance of a trade, two teams, an agent and a team talking. But if you were to say to him, like, you just can't pick that up and we'll trade for you, Miami becomes super interesting. And I agree with Sky. I think Tyler Hero would not only perhaps be the best player that they get, but also like the exact guy you want next design. on. He's basically like, you know, you get young JJ Reddick and considering how many of those like

no limit soldier like album cover Photoshop's that they produce among Pelicans fans. Like that dude is a perfect fit there. Those are deep cuts just and I like it. Showing your age a bit. No Limit Soldier. Oh my goodness. The block is hot, my friend. Those album covers with DeMarcus and as Demarcis, AD and Drew as the hot boys is still the great that's ever existed. The best morning in the history of the franchise. When I think no limit soldiers, I definitely think Drew Holiday.

Oh, yes. That gold tank, man. Is there anyone we're forgetting here in this discussion? Is there any Dark Horse team that makes sense? Like, we talked about the Lakers. Is Golden State a possibility possibility? Do you think there's like a real asset there that makes sense that they would be able to,

trade off. So it would be two things. So it would be the picks, would be the big carrot there. So you'd want the number two and probably the Wolves pick the following year. And you have to wonder if New Orleans considering how many of the Lakers draft picks they have. Like is that really like what they're after? Although most of those Lakers picks will probably be later in the draft. So if you're thinking about just in terms of value, like maybe those look appealing. The big problem is in order to make the money work, you're probably taking on Wiggins. And so on the one hand, like, yeah, maybe Wiggins is the successor to Quincy Pondexter that they never had. On the other hand, he makes an absurd amount of money. And I do wonder if you put him in a

situation where there isn't an existing culture where all that, like, all the good vibes Steve Kerr was talking about where like, oh, yeah, we're going to bring out the best of him. All of a sudden, he's back to just jacking threes and just like not playing defense. I mean, for the sake of accuracy, I think of Wiggins is maybe like the new Zavier-Henry versus the new Quincy Pondexter. But that's just a, that's just a point. of order. Deep cuts. Deep cuts.

Wow. One team that I don't think we've mentioned so far is Phoenix. And I don't know what the package would be exactly, but certainly, I mean, we've talked about who the sons would want to see next to Devin Booker, what type of player Drew fits that mold, doesn't need the ball all the time, could be a supplementary ball handler. And then it becomes a question of, okay, what is Phoenix giving up? That's a little thornier, and maybe it's like an Ubre, plus some stuff kind of trade package, which isn't as exciting as some of these other ones.

but you could do worse. Uber is actually from New Orleans too. I think that would be encouraging for some level that he would want to come. I think a lot of guys don't, especially considering the weirdness in the situation, the history of the franchise. I just wonder, do you, I mean,

you guys would actually know way more than me. Is there any scenario in which there's a three-team way to approach this that Bradley B.L. ends up coming somewhere. That's the big X factor here, right? Because that's the other big tradable guard, right? I feel like if another team had the stuff to trade for Beal, they would do it. And so that makes me think, you know, activating the Wizards in that way, I feel like that trade would already be done. Yeah, and you would think if Washington is going to trade Beal that they wouldn't want Drew Holiday back.

So if we're working like a three trade and then New Orleans, both New Orleans and Washington would want the young assets back to start over, I would assume. So it might be complicated. But yeah, I mean, he's the type of star. I wonder if teams would save their powder just to go after a reveal. And so they won't get into Drew Holiday and into those trade talks. So it's definitely a complicated situation. But we'll definitely be keeping track of this going forward because there's definitely nothing to keep track of otherwise.

Scott, thank you so much for joining us today. Absolutely, guys. You got to give the people a verier story. Give his fans a very New Orleans story. These are all NSFW, man. I'll give a very PG, Justin's story of, and I'm wondering if you've told this, if after a game, the Pelicans were up by like 20,

they didn't want it a long time, and they're up by like 20. Shocking. And AD gets his 40th point with like 40 seconds, okay? And Justin turns to me, he's like, why is this guy still in the game? Like, what are they doing? he gets hurt every other game.

Like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. I was like, I don't know. It was like, they're just not used to winning. Like, this is, you know, a whole thing. So he goes down, Alvin Jengers in the middle of his press conference. Finally he gets to answer questions about winning and not about how much they're injured or they suck.

And they, and Justin just pops in and goes, so did you just keep AD in the game to get 40 or? He goes, and turns his head, smacks the penalty. And he goes, that's this dumbest question. ever heard in 35 years of doing this job. He goes, that is the stupidest thing. Do we leave him in to get 40?

Because of course, no. He's trying to win the game. We don't win any games. We're trying to win the game. And you know what? He definitely left him in to get 40. Yeah. No, I've told this, this, well, not this story, but definitely the anecdote just only because

I'm the only reporter that Alvin Gentry has gotten mad at. Every single person in the media just adores him. And I'm just like, eh, you know. He did it to somebody last year. He did it to Christian Clark last year. And within like five minutes, I was like, don't worry. I was like, he will come apologize to you within before he leaves the arena. And sure it off.

That was one though where like I wasn't thinking about what I was saying. And it just kind of came out more tersely than I had like hoped. It was awesome. And I just remember being furious. I was ready to fucking quit right then. And just like walk away from that team because they were not winning at all. And I was just like, send me back to L.A. But hey, Alvin and I are both in California now.

We can maybe perhaps like just grab a fruit smoothie together. Yes, we can go wine tasting in Haput. 45 minutes of Napa. That's what I heard when he thinks that was. Listen. Yeah, I'm sure that was on the top of his list. All right. Thank you, Scott. All right. We're going to take a quick break and we come back. We're going to talk to Mike Vorknoff of The Athletic to talk about the Knicks.

All right. We're back. Time for an upbeat story on this weird day. Let's talk about the Knicks because only good things go right with this franchise. Joining us from the athletic, Mike Forkanoff. What's up, man? Yeah, the Knicks are the optimistic part of everyone's life right now. What a world? Yeah, it's the only thing to look forward to is another season of Knicks basketball. So we talked about Drew Holiday up top, but other than that scenario, I feel like the Knicks are one of the more fascinating teams in the league right now. On the one hand, they don't really have much in house, but they're in this weird state where anything can really happen with this team. They have all these contracts. It's like, do they bring them back?

Do they try to bring in a Chris Paul? Who are they drafting? And so I wanted to get your take on this. Let's start from just like from the beginning, I guess, of this new era. So you have Leon Rose in there. You have Tom Tibitho. Have you sensed any like change with the team, with the organization? Like what is life under a Leon Rose regime like so far?

Well, the pandemic has obviously made things a little more difficult. I would say, surprisingly, the Knicks seem even more tight-lipped than usual, which, yeah. I mean, listen, I think they've gone from, they're always kind of neurotic to a large degree, and especially when it comes to the media. I think Leon Rost has been a good fit in the sense that he's known to be very tight-lipped. So probably that was a feature when he got hired, that he can bring that type of attitude. I mean, obviously, you bring in World Wide West, who is not known to be, very gabby with reporters.

And I think that they've really tightened the circle in the last, I don't know, seven months. I've lost track of time, whatever the amount of months have been. And so covering the Nixin and the vibe around the Nix has been even, I don't know, even more, everything feels even more opaque the last few months. Yeah, it's funny. I remember when Tib was in Minnesota, that was the one team that wouldn't pick tips, tip picks to shams or woes in the draft. Like, no one knew.

what they were going to draft at all. Well, yeah, I mean, look, the thing I heard about Tibbs before he got hired, because that one kind of seemed telegraphed for a while, is that he's going to be perfect for New York because he gives nothing to the media, and he's also very tight-lipped. So, like, they are really doubling down on these types of people coming to the organization. I mean, you can take whatever their competency is, and however this works out in the basketball side of things, we'll see. But they are, yeah, they're very much quieter now than they've ever been, I'd say.

Yeah, I've always said the secret. approach that some organizations take. Like, how you view it really depends on if they're successful at it. So, for instance, the Spurs, like, nothing gets out of that team and they don't make trades and they're kind of closed off to the media. But we all think something, like, magical is going on behind the scenes because they just keep on winning with the Knicks. We just assume that it's, like, you know, clowns getting into a tiny car, you know,

or just, like, people running on hamster wheels or whatever it is. But yeah, it's surprising because you would assume that they would go the opposite way, just based on the success and track record of that approach. Like, I remember almost like two years ago they were making us think about being more open to the media. And yeah, let's like, let's talk and do more stories. And that just like didn't happen. But I guess it only really matters if it trickles down to the team side. I think the biggest question I have is just like, do we think, do we think, Leon, Rose's connections and the CIA thing where he has like he knows stars stars are going to be more

interested in the team do we think that's going to be real do you have any like sense of like if that's playing any effect do you think like that's overblown what's your like basic read i guess right now what a couple months into this whole thing i think there's a very like goosebumps choose your own ending type of vibe to that um you know like part of it is is you talk to some people around the lead. They're like, okay, you know, obviously you see what the Knicks are doing. Leon Rose, Tom Tibido, Worldwide West. There ties to Kentucky programs, all the people that he used to have at CAA, right?

Like, these are the Knicks kind of loading up to try to make a play for someone eventually. Probably not Devin Booker or Carl Towns in the short term just because their contracts have so much time left. It really is not making a lot of sense. But this is them loading up to make it happen. And the other point of view is maybe it's something short of like. a Chris Paul trade, which is a very direct tie because Leon Rose, uh, reped him up until February and he's at a different point in his career. I think the basic thing that I need to be thought of is that like,

Knicks are still not in a place to be attractive to free agents or to stars because they're still bad, right? Like I think you can have all the front office execs that you want and they hired Kenny Payne as an assistant coach who Kentucky players love and all that. Like at some point they first want to see kind of like, uh, you know, a performance. right? They want to see that the things are working before they say, okay, get me to New York, which has the chance to make a leap. Like right now, they're not even at the point, I think, with the talent that they have in-house to be able to make a case as a destination. And I think

the next year is going to be that time where they're like, okay, look, here's our proof of concept, take a risk on us. Yeah, they need to establish a baseline for competence. And as we saw with like the Lakers, for instance, like that can go a very long way when you are in a market where everybody wants to go to, which probably brings us to the Chris Paul conversation. So Jonathan Markey of Nick's film school says, he reported last week, this week, I can't even keep track of time, that CP prefers going to L.A. or New York. I think every player probably prefers that. So I don't know how much stock we can put into that. But I think it's Paul and the Knicks pursuit of a pursuit or potential pursuit of him is a really

fascinating window into this team, because on the one hand, you could say they're not good. They need to get better. They need actual players to play good basketball. Imagine that. But on the other hand, you wonder if one way to sell to superstars and eventual superstars, that they are competent that they can, like, this is a place you can play, is to get another star to vouch for you. And so I do wonder, Rob, what, if you were the Knicks, do you see Paul as a potential way

to getting there? Or is this just overblown in what you really? you need is to do the hard work of actually getting, you know, good players and like getting good, just methods for your franchise. I mean, what no one wants to hear is that they should probably just do the hard work, right? Like the Chris Paul thing, I get, like, Chris Paul's a great basketball player. I would love to have them on my team. If that's your shortcut to the next Nick's super team or the next great Knicks team, I just don't see how that math adds up, per se. What I wonder with Paul is, could the Knicks be a destination for an Eric Bloodso type?

in a three-team trade, for example. Like, could you swing a deal where you're able to appease all the parties there? The Knicks get a better point guard. They're able to get incrementally more competent on the floor. It can take the ball out of R.J. Barrett's hands, can give you a sense of structure, but without committing tons of money like you would with a Chris Paul, without, you know, overextending yourself in that kind of direction. That's kind of where I would lean personally.

But as we've seen from the Knicks, they kind of want what they want. I just wonder with Paul. he might say I want to play there now, but he goes there and they lose like, you know, 20 straight games. How long is I really going to last? And then does he go from Chris Paul veteran mentor to Chris Paul, I'm tired of these young guys who aren't good enough. I'm going to pick him apart and ruin their confidence.

That's the issue to me because, like, in Oklahoma City, right, he came there, there was Gallinari, Schrooter, Adams. They had a full team around him. He goes to New York. They've got nothing. They've got like three or four young guys who haven't proven anything. That's just a hard. It's hard for me to see how it's going to work.

Yeah, that's kind of the great unknown, right? Like, Paul was motivated perhaps more than ever last season to prove that not only he still had it, but that, like, he can compete on the level of the Rockets. Like, if you're going to the Knicks, like, you can't imagine that during the next two years of your contract, if you're planning to opt into that second year, which is a lot of money to turn down if you're not, like, you're not going to play competitive basketball. So is there going to be as much motivation to really, like, do, like, as we said, the hard work of like coaching up a Kevin Knox of Frank Nilekena.

I'm also curious what you guys think because if I'm looking at the Knicks, like I'm trying to do everything I can to empower RJ Barrett. He's probably the one player. I mean, we could talk about Mitchell Robinson, but like the one player who perhaps like still be there on my hopeful championship contending team a couple of years down the road here, just Paul conflicted all with like really making him your number. one option, your ball handler? What do you think, Mike?

I think he'd help him right now. Like, I don't think Barrett is there yet where he can, you know, have a high usage rate and have an efficient offense come out of that. I think just by taking the load off of them, you can stagger their mince a little bit if you just want to get him to be the main guy on the floor for a portion of the game. I think it'll help him get easy buckets from time to time and just help his game overall. You know, RJ Barrett is like a really hard worker. He's an intelligent guy.

and I think he'd benefit from playing alongside Chris Paul. And I think, you know, you don't want to have RJ Barrett or Mitchell Robbins or whoever, like play the first three years of their career in a crappy basketball environment where they're just picking up bad habits. And, you know, if you trade for Chris Paul, I think this is the benefit of the Leon Rose relationship. And the fact that he rep them for so long is like, they can probably have a pretty honest conversation before or if a trade goes down. And, you know, so Chris Paul would come in eyes wide open to what he's coming into and you, York and what the Knicks would want him for. And so if he's up for that and he, I don't want to say like approve a trade to New York,

but it sure seems like if Oklahoma City trades him, he'd have some say in where he goes. And so he's not just going to be like checking his phone one day. Oh, I'm going to the next. I think in that case, that would be a good situation for him for RJ Bear, definitely for Mitchell Robinson. Like the Knicks, I think the floor would rise so quickly that, you know, you could conceivably be a team that, like, chases the eighth seed next season, but not in a way where you're kind of going all out and getting rid of all your assets just for an empty playoff push.

Mike, I'm curious. Where do you stand RJ? Was last year as a lost season? Or where do you kind of see his ceiling being in the NBA? It's weird. I'd read like all the national guys, John Hollinger for us, like everyone else. And I feel like I'm a little bit crazy because I seem to be a little bit more optimistic on RJ Barrett than everyone else.

I think, you know, like his rookie year was obviously flawed. Usually you look at the shooting numbers, the efficiency numbers, they were rough. But just watching him night to night He really showed like he has a good feel for the game He was competitive on defense I'm not saying he was a good defender But he wasn't lost, he was physical You knew how to use his hands

I see a chance for him to be a good player I don't necessarily want to say like he'll be an all-star I'm not willing to go there But I could see him becoming a good player Who is able to put a portion of the offense on his shoulders And really the key is I know it's cliche to say But like it's where his jump shot goes

you know, if it never comes around, then yeah, that the ceiling gets lower drastically. But, you know, talking to some people on the Knicks, they were confident that last, you know, they thought he could eventually become like a 37, 38 percent three-point shooter, which is just a little bit over league average. But if he does that, I mean, I think that'll really open up his game a little more. And I think just because of his work ethic and the way he thinks about basketball, I'm a little higher on him than maybe everyone else. Well, it really seemed like he was set up to fail in the sense that, you know, we're talking about, you know, we want to make sure we maximize him as a ball handler.

I mean, he was over maximized as a ball handler last season in a team on a team that just didn't have the spacing to accommodate it. And as a rookie feeling that, like, feeling your way through the league in that kind of environment, I didn't really see a way he was going to be successful there during year one. That said, like I put a high priority on things like physicality on the wing. And RJ is a guy who, I mean, he can be a battering ram type player if he wants. to be. You saw it in year one, just his ability to push some guys out of his way. Wasn't finishing particularly well when he got there. But there's a pattern there

of what could be a successful player, almost irrelevant of his jump shot. The question is, can you put a team around him that clears the lane for him to do the stuff that he does well? Yeah, I thought what was impressive is like he was really good at getting to the rim and getting to the line. I think he was like 90th

percentile amongst all wings and free throw rate according to cleaning glass. And he did that in an offense, that was really ugly. It was difficult to get there because he'd get to the lane there'd be like two, three other guys. But what I think would make me optimistic is that he, you know,

he kind of expanded his game as the year went on. He started working on like a post-up game in the few times where the Knicks eventually went to kind of like a more spaced out offense when Mike Miller took over. He seemed a lot more comfortable

running pick and rolls and when there was actually room in the middle of the court. So those are the things that make me think like, as you said, if he gets put into an offense that wasn't what the 2019-20 Knicks were,

which is, I think, woefully built, especially without him or Mitchell Robinson and mine, and that was clear. I think that would make me rethink, you know, just kind of where he goes eventually. If you think about it, you think back to the draft, everyone's saying, well, RJ Barrett's going to really

benefit from being in an NBA offense, with spacing and shooters around them, and then like, well, just none of that happened. Yeah, it's weird that he also got paired with Julius Randall, who almost seems like the Model T version of what Barrett will hopefully become. So, man, they really just saddled him with like snow tires, basically. Turks, where are you on Barrett?

I'm curious because you probably studied him going into the draft, right? My concern with him was always that he's just a guy who's always had the rock, always needed the rock. And it's just like, if he's going to be your guy with the ball, how good are you going to be? that was always my concern with him was just fitting him into a really good team because like just his mentality

I'm doing an article on Duke players over the last 10 years RJ took more shots at Duke than anyone by a significant margin that's not playing with Zion Williamson I respected RJ took like 19 shots a game and it was just like

so that that's just my concern my concern is like if RJ is your number one how good are you going to be and can RJ be number two or number three because yeah the shot was never really there the touch was never really there and the things he's really good at kind of play it's like julius randall right like he is good at getting to the room he's good at bully ball but like if your fourth best player is good at bully ball and can't shoot and like what's what's the fit that's my issue with archer he's

been the fit around him yeah i think all that's legit um but i also think like you know he's a good rebounder um i think he can eventually be kind of a maybe an above average defender there because of his physicality. I don't know. I'm just curious, you know, like last year was weird in the sense that he was empowered to kind of look for his own shot and creating all that. And by the coaching staff, and then on the floor, he had to deal with Julius Randall kind of running the offense through him and Alfred Payton. So it was this weird kind of mixed direction type of situation. I just want to see what he'd be with with good coaching and kind of a just more cohesive type of roster to see what, you know, what that future looks like then.

It's just hard to drive when Julius Randall drove into the paint, pivoted three times, tripped, and is on the ground, and now you're having to drive over him. It just doesn't work. Did y'all see that clip of Julius' kid playing like AAU, like six first grade basketball? Tremendous. He just runs over and takes the ball from him. That was just so perfect. It was amazing. Yeah, that's the solution right there.

Just grab it out of R.J. Barrett's hands. I mean, this is probably a good time to talk about some of those guys around these guys then. Like, if we're saying that Barrett is probably going to, like, fail or see. succeed based on his teammates and the complimentary guys. I want to talk about some of the young guys on the Knicks. So Frankie Smokes, Dennis Smith Jr., Kevin Knox. It seems like Mitchell Robinson is like his approval rating is through the roof. So he's almost in a separate category.

But those first three guys I'm mentioning, Mike, when you look into the future, are these guys still contributing for the Knicks or are, is like the jury already out and does it not look good? I mean, I'm, you know, Dennis Smith Jr., I think might have been the worst player in the NBA last season. He took a just dramatic drop off. I think there are a lot of things contributing to, but it just, it was not good. Kevin Knox. So good, start.

Yeah. It doesn't help that he was kind of the centerpiece of the Christops pours-enghis trade. So that didn't go well. Kevin Knox, you know, my thing with him is like, it's worrisome when your effort is a thing that's kind of in question at all times. and it comes and goes and comes and goes throughout the season. And he's explicit about that too. It's like, you know, he went through like multiple 10 game stretches last season where his blocks were up, his steals were up.

And it's like, why did that happen? Why is this occurring? And he'll say, you know, I decided I had to give more effort on defense. I talk to the people around me. It's like, okay, I get it. That's good. But, you know, this should be like a consistency thing. To me, ever since he's been a rookie, it's like, okay, I can see him becoming a volume

score if he gets the opportunity and maybe a shot, you know, I think some people are optimistic about a shot and all that. but what about everything else? So, you know, they brought in his college assistant coach, Kenny Payne, you know, if he gets through this offseason, still on the Knicks, there seems to be a foundation for growth for him. But there's a lot of worrisome things there. And with Frankie, uh, Nilequina,

I think I'm, I'm much higher in him than everyone else. You know, Knicks fans are kind of like 50-50 split on him. It's more partisan than the election. And, you know, I think like, I see him being eventually a good player, probably maybe even the starting player on a good team. The Knicks, again, and this is not to rag on them, but like that was just not a good start

for him for his career. And you hear like NBA Scouts say that all the time, like, you know, put him in Oklahoma City or San Antonio or like Milwaukee or whatever. Like this is a guy who can defend, hit threes, do some playmaking just a little bit, and he becomes good. But I think so much for him is just kind of opportunity and location. Charks, where are you on these guys? Are any of these keepers in your mind?

It does kind of seem like Nilakina Knox are guys on their second or third teams. It just feels like there's a guys who need to jump around a league a little bit, find their role. I mean, they got talent, right? They definitely got talent. But it's just a hard in New York, right? Because there's no one to play off of. There's no structure. There's no system.

It's just a hard team to land on, obviously, if you're a rookie. I mean, that's where, you know, even if they don't make a Chris Paul move or something like that, or, you know, they take a swing at Fred Van Fleet, but he doesn't say. sign there. Like, even a placeholder type point guard, just somebody to give a little bit more structure, I think could go a long way toward helping some of those guys find their level. Like, I'm probably down on all three of them, relatively speaking. Frank Nillikina maybe on the higher end of that spectrum.

But he, like Charks was saying, feels salvageable, but maybe not salvageable for the Knicks, if that makes sense. Like, there's already so much baggage with his situation, the Porzingas trade being part of that, that I would be doubtful he really pans out into being a meaningful player for them. And I think by now, like, you know, he was drafted to be the point card for Phil Jackson's triangle and then Phil Jackson got fired six days later. And he never got a chance to play point card. And I think it's clear he's more probably of a wing than he is a point guard at this point.

So if you put him, like you said, Rob, around like a point card who can do things and he doesn't have that burden on him, he's a smart player and he defends so well that he can succeed in that type of situation, but that just hasn't been in. And I was kind of surprised even that they picked up his fourth year option last year, just because it's, I think, about like $6.4 million and just, I don't know, it didn't seem like the Knicks that were even invested in giving him a chance to prove himself the first three years. Yeah, I wonder if the conversation we probably should be having is a Tibbs conversation

then, because they're really hoping that he finds something in some of these guys. And while, like, he brought out probably the best of Jimmy Butler, or at least early version Jimmy Butler, I guess new version of Jimmy Butler is way better. But, like, I mean, you really are counting on a coach who knowingly pivot away from young guys and just, like, prioritized veteran grinders in Minnesota. And, like, so I wonder if, like, he, well, Mike, this is a good question for you then. Like, do you get the sense that Tibbs has learned anything for his?

mistakes or are we going to be halfway through next season and Taj Gibson is leading the league in minutes again? You know, okay, so I did like a very long, probably too long Tom Tibado's story earlier this summer and I asked a lot of his friends, you know, like, what do you think went wrong for him? What do you think Tom would say he went wrong for him? And the answer I got from a lot of them was like, I don't know that anything went wrong in Minnesota for him. I don't know that He thinks that things went wrong. Cool. You know, you asked Tom that question, and he's had two or three Zoom calls or whatever,

and he kind of just gives it a non-answer. So I don't think that he's really going to change that much. I don't think he's there. He's 62 years old. This is his third head coaching job. He's had, I'd say, like, a pretty good level of success as first two stops. Like, I just don't think this is going to be like a reinvigorated, reincarnated Tom Tibido in New York.

I think he'll keep doing. doing the things that got him success. And, you know, it's kind of on the Knicks front office to save him from himself where his weaknesses are. Yeah. I mean, where do we, where are we staying on Tibbs overall, Rob? Just because on the one hand, I think Mike's right. I mean, like, he was incredible with the Bulls.

On the other hand, like, still running a defensive system that probably doesn't fit for the modern NBA. And so if, if he, can he catch up to the times just strategic? strategically or just like can he just like change his preference enough that there's someone there that could perhaps be what they need him to be? It's tough because in Minnesota he had a pretty good offense. And you know, some of that's, you know, you put Carl Towns and Jimmy Butler on a team. You can you can run a pretty good offense.

It turns out the defensive stuff is kind of what worries me. And he needs that kind of Mike Dantonie moment where it's not enough to have the one huge breakthrough a decade ago. Like you need the second evolution of whatever it is. that fits this new group of personnel. And that's one thing to do around James Hardin and Chris Paul, like Dan Tony did in Houston, very different thing to do around Kevin Knox

and RJ Barrett in New York. You know, like, I don't know what the reimagined version of a Tom Tibido team is exactly. Hopefully we can find out. Hopefully he has that kind of, you know, that creativity and that curiosity to find that out versus, oh, let's just roll it back. Same kind of strong side zones.

You know, the usual schemes. This is what we call them. Same old stuff. It's fine. It's just teams have been there. and they've seen that, they know how to attack it. It's a different leak. So, I mean, that's where I would be concerned for sure,

just in terms of some of the complexity of evolving on some already great ideas, but ones that are now time-worn. Yeah, I mean, I think what Mike said is good. It's like all these coach GMs, right? None of them really worked. You know, Doc, Ben Gundy. So you just kind of got to hope that GM part kind of ruined the coach part. And now that we're going back to coaching.

Like, to me, I'm more worried about league. Leon Rose and Tibbs. Tibbs is who he is. How is Leon Rose going to draft? Like, Mike, what's your... I'm obviously not talking very much, but, like, who do you think makes sense to them in number eight?

Like, what's the kind of players are looking at, do you think? You know, it's kind of a... It's hard to get a read on them so far. You know, the few names I've heard that they've been linked to are like Tyree's Halliburton, O. B. Topin.

They went to see Cairo Lewis work out in person last week. But I don't know... It's hard to know what they're going to do in the draft. I could see them trade up. I could see him stay at eight. I could see him trade down. Like, I think maybe if there's an opportunity to come up and get La Mello ball, I could see the Knicks doing that. They do have a lot of picks so they can use their assets if they want to to make that trade if it present itself. But I don't know. I think really, like,

on offense, I think Tibbs is more utilitarian than anything else. You can see throughout his Chicago in Minnesota times, he just, he sees the talent and the skills he has in front of him. He makes at work. I don't know what he's going to do on defense, but you're right. Like, it's going to be on Leon Rose to get him the players he needs and also to structure that roster in a way where he can't just lean on the vets. Like, I think it's kind of fair to say, like, Tibbs will play rookies if they're really good or young players if they're really good because he gave minutes to Andrew Wiggins and Carl Towns, but it's everyone else that might get lost along the way. And so if you're the GM, you got to, you got to know that and you got to not give him outs to like

totally bench Frank Nilakino or to bench whoever the rookie is. When the hope, too, that it would be he would invest more in Mitchell Robinson than previous iterations of the Knicks have. I mean, there's such like a backup quarterback thing that goes on with Mitchell Robinson. I think we probably have him inflated a little bit just because of his crazy efficiency numbers. But I mean, I would like to see him be a more central part of the team. And you would hope that, you know, in a Tom Tibido team, he's had some very effective centers in the past, been able to utilize them pretty creatively, if nothing else. Maybe that's a part that could play in Robinson's favor.

Do you think he'll do any step back three-pointers like I see from him pretty much every week of the offseason? That's the primary mode of their offense, I think. Does he have the highest, like, approval rating? Is he the most popular Nick of all time? I've never seen a bad thing said about Mitchell Robinson. Yeah, I mean, Nick's fans love Mitchell Robinson, which is great. Like, he's there, he's like the precious perfect thing in the middle of like the storm right now, right? Like, he's shooting, I think he shot 74% from the floor.

Like, it was an NBA record. Like, yeah, I don't know. But, you know, I think there's a very real question to be a conversation to be had about Mitchell Robinson, too, just because of his contract status. But it'll be, it'll be interesting to see what if Tibbs decides to run it back defensively, what a defense looks like with not Carl Towns is the center, right? Like, I think that could help him. And if Tibdo can help Mitchell Robinson become better defensively, too, you know, the, the, blocks are great, and I think he does a pretty good job of switching out on guards when he's in that situation, but there's, I think, still real questions about whether he can be kind of

an anchor for a defense and just really make it work that way before, like, going all in on Mitchell Robinson futures. Okay, Mike, now that I think about it, I'm looking at the Knicks, we're talking about maximizing Mr. Robinson and R.J. Barrett. What happens to Julius Randall? Because I just don't see how you can maximize those two guys with Julius Randall on the roster, making 20 million a year? Like, how do you square that circle?

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't have an answer for you. I don't know if the Knicks do either. I know that, like, you know, he's got a year left on his contract and a $4 million guaranteed for his third year. I know that, you know, last trade deadline, you know, they kind of had him involved in trade discussions already. So they weren't like averse to trading him.

And that was the regime that signed them. I don't know. I mean, I kind of think in some ways, like he's best as a small ball five. I mean, you look at his career, the on-off number. and just his efficiency, like his teams play better when he's at the five. That's hard to square

with Mitchell Robinson on there. So really, they'd have to deprioritize him. And part of that is, you know, if you bring in like a point card who can take that away from him, I think he played better

over the last few months when Alfred Payton was there and he had a respect for Alfred Payton because they've known each other a while. And that really kind of, you know, it kept the ball out of his hands a little more and made him more efficient in that way. So they're,

unless they can control, trade him, they have to put players around him that, uh, you know, that get him to buy in on doing less essentially. Good luck. Yeah. I feel like now that we're a year out from all the signings from last off season, you can kind of look back and say, you know, maybe it wasn't that terrible for the Knicks. Like, yeah, things went pretty terrible. Like you didn't get Zion. You didn't get any of the free agents you said you were going to. But at the very least, you have all of this salary that worst case you can aggregate together in order to get some. one. And as we've seen, like, sometimes that's what it takes. You just need to make the math work. You

need to have the right assets in order to make this work. I got to say, giving Julius Randall a fully guaranteed second year and just like a partially guaranteed third year, man, it looks terrible because I feel like his future might be as like just bowling ball Jamal Crawford, you know, like Jamal Crawford, you know, like Jamal Crawford with just like a fat suit on. Not to say he's fat, but he's just, he's definitely bulkier. But because like, I don't know, man. I don't really. I don't really. know how else you fit him into a winning environment. And on the other hand, like, I feel like this is what we say about every player we don't know what to do with.

Like, yeah, he scores points. But on the other hand, he'll just completely wreck your entire team every other way. So I agree with what you guys are saying. I just, I don't see a, uh, a future there. And I also don't see a future with Tibbs after like you ask Julius Randall to switch on to someone like, like, like I fear for his health and his safety. You know what I mean? I feel like over the last couple weeks of this pod,

we've made like an all Jamal Crawford team. Like DeMarer Rosen is like mid-post Jamal Crawford, Julius Randall Bowling Ball, Jamal Crawford. We're really kind of flexing out the Jamal Crawford bunch here. And Jamal Crawford's good. I like Jamal Crawford. He's another media member All-Star. Yeah, for sure.

Well, Charks, we brought up the draft here. Where do you see them going? Because if I'm looking from like just the broad sense and just like, I don't know anything about the draft, it seems like they can go anyway, and maybe that's an advantage in a draft where, like, there isn't a clear cut one or two best guys?

The thing that's fasting about the next in this draft, because I think, I'm not sure who will be there at eight, but looking at the guys who might be, if you're trying to maximize R.J. Barrett, Tyrese Halliburton is, like, the perfect guy next to R.J. He's a big point guard, doesn't need the ball, gives you structure, can guard, can spot up.

But that's maximizing R.J. The question is if Killian Hayes is there, This is KOC's guy. He's KOS's number one player. He's a really interesting young point guard, but he needs the rock. If you draft Killion Hayes, him and RJ, they're both want the ball. That could be really, really tough. So that becomes a matter of how much do you value RJ as that front office.

Yeah, I mean, if you're going to maximize RJ, you have to decide he's the guy who can eventually be a number one option, right, for you. I just, I don't think that he's there yet where you're like, okay, everything needs to be sacrificed to be. build around RJ Barrett. And like the Knicks have so many holes aside from center essentially. Like they just need to get good players. You got to go best player available, I think. Like I don't see Killian Hayes being an issue for them because they need a good point card.

They need someone who can create offensively anyway because even if RJ does become your number one guy, you don't want him to be alone in that burden. You know, like almost anyone, to me, I look at the draft aside from like Weissman and I'm not going to try to butcher the center from USC's name on. here. But, you know, aside from those two bigs, like everyone fits there because they have so many holes and they have glaring needs at every position. Other than that, things are great. Maybe that's a good place to stop here then. On just extreme optimism. Mike, thank you for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having. Thanks for having.

Thanks, Mike. All right. That's it for us this week. We will be back next week when we'll hopefully have some answers both to win the NBA season we'll start and just perhaps to the fate of the country. Until then, we will see you next time.