The Ringer NBA Show - Kawhi for DeRozan, Smart Stays a Celtic, the Timberwolves’ Shaky Future, and Pre-Agency | Group Chat (Ep. 303)

Episode Date: July 19, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier are joined by Haley O’Shaughnessy to discuss the impact of the Toronto Raptors acquiring Kawhi Leonard in exchange for a package led by DeMar DeRozan (0:54), Marcus Smart signing a four-year contract with the Boston Celtics (24:25), the uncertainties surrounding the Minnesota Timberwolves’ stars (29:03), and the next disgruntled stars to leverage their situations (37:12). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Basketball is very good Kauai will end up loving the cold weather Yonis will win the MVP next year What if the Sixers don't need a GM Basketball is very good Hello, it has been a while since I've said these two words But welcome to group chat Justin Verrier We back

Isn't that four words? Hi Haley, yes, it is four words But group chat are two words Thanks for taking the air out of my balloon it's the off season. Officially it is the off season, finally. Because there's like the off season that's the hot stove NBA

in which all of us work seven days a week, 12 hours a day, constantly checking Twitter. The post-post season. Yeah, now we are officially, everybody can go to the beach for the rest of the year. I'm still checking Twitter.

We're at the point where most of the content as journalists just complaining about starting their vacation or when they can start their vacation. Vacation Twitter. We still have to talk about this Kauai Letter thing.

So Kauai Leder, obviously traded from San Antonio Spurs to Toronto Raptors for DeMarderose and Jakob Podol and a collection of picks that didn't seem, they don't seem like they're going to tip the scales really one way or another. So it's really what we're getting down to is this Kauai for DeMarswap Swap, ultimately, even if Jakub Podl winds up being the next, I don't know, who could he be? Flowers. Flowers perintheation, by the way. I've heard it enough times over the last couple of days.

Nasir Muhammad. There you go. So Jakop Podel could be the next Nasir Mohammed. A couple of different angles I want to hit here. So this was a really strange trade. After coming off the LeBron thing, which I think was, by LeBron standards, anti-climactic, Sunday afternoon in L.A., press release from an unverified Twitter account. And we were all just like, okay, it's the new reality. LeBron, the Lakers.

You know, we get to this Kauai situation, which has been way more for me, like, the way European soccer transfers work, which is basically a player starts leaking through the press that they're unhappy with the team they're with. The team is like, we have them under contract. That's too bad. and then it's just, it winds up metastasizing until it's like they have to get this guy off the team because otherwise it's just going to send the franchise into a tailspun. And that's kind of what happened with this Kauai situation.

I mean, you know, the injury, how it was handled, the rumors afterwards, the trade demand this summer, and then finally the Spurs acquiescing. And I think we all kind of thought, I wanted to ask you first, Justin, because I think we all as Spurs watchers over the last decade or so, we're like, oh, yeah, they're going to hold fast. They're going to get the best possible deal

if they trade them. and they're knocking, maybe they won't trade them at all. Maybe they can just fix this. And in the end, it kind of got worked a little bit. Yeah, my general reaction to when the trade came down, which on our time was like, what, six o'clock in the morning, Pacific time? It was definitely one of those incredibly pleasant wake up

and your phone is like still vibrating from the hour of things that have been happening. Pleasant at like 3 o'clock when we were done with our work day, but not at 7 o'clock when you wake up and you have a fire drill on your hand. Yes. No, I mean, I think the collective just reaction was,

huh. Yeah. You know, it wasn't like the big deal that we all thought of, and the biggest takeaway as it settles in is kind of just like this is how trades go. We all kind of work ourselves up into lathers thinking like, well, based on the value of Kauai, a top five player in the NBA, he's going to get a sort of package that will set up the spurs for the next generation. But if you look back at like pretty much every star trade over the past decade, maybe even going further back, it's really never what we expect it to be.

You look at the Kyrie Irving trade last year, as A. Thomas turned out to be more hurt than we thought. I mean, it ultimately wound up being Kyrie Irving for Colin Sexton. Yeah, essentially. I mean, the Dwight Howard trade, for a while we were talking ourselves into, like, Nicola Vucevic being the best, like, asset in that trade, simply because he was signed long term. I guess technically, like, the Rockets traded for Chris Paul, but that one was essentially like a free agency signing anyway, you know?

Yeah, true. But at the same time, it's just, it's never just a one for one. And I think it makes a little bit of sense for the Spurs. If you look at their situation, if you look at Pop-specific situation, and we can talk about that. But overall, it just, it's kind of a fizzle rather than any sort of ground-shaking, like NBA-shaping trade sort of situation.

I guess I was kind of surprised because of the same thing that you were saying. I didn't expect it to be a superstar-for-super-star-type trade. Yeah, we heard it was going to be... Yeah, this is how they rebuilt. A younger guy, younger package, or, you know, whatever. And they did get that pick. Sure.

But I didn't expect this because it kind of, seems like this whole season has taken the wind out of pop. Sure. For obvious reasons. Right. And I've been saying this for a while, but I've always thought, okay, he seems over it. And he wants to leave the spurs with something for the future. I can't imagine that he would leave this franchise and retire after this long and not be setting them up. And the Demar thing seems like a choir replacement, where essentially they're saying, okay, like we kind of have to go now, this guy's in this prime. And with Kauai, I didn't think that Popovich was going to retire, I don't know, like in the next three years.

Because actually, I have a Louisville comparison. When Rick Bettino won the 2013 championship, which happened, he said it brought the coaching excitement back into it. Sure. And he wanted to keep going. And so I thought that essentially that was what Kauai was for Pop. And then after all this drama, I thought Shirley's not going to want to do this for much longer. We've got the Team USA thing coming. You know, it just seemed like obviously his wife passed away.

They had all these problems internally with the Spurs. The ownership group went through a little bit of a rocky thing with Juliana and Peter Holt having a divorce. It's been a long rough year. Routinely, his assistant coaching bench gets rated for other jobs. And James Borago left for another job. But that being said, I thought he sounded pretty peppy yesterday. He did. I thought he, in classic Popovich fashion,

kind of makes the entire endeavor of thinking too much about this stuff and worrying too much about this stuff. He throws it immediately in perspective. He has that way of going about during a playoff series, he'll just be ruthless about the refereeing, and we're not getting calls here, and you can tell he's just like really locked in. And the second the Spurs lose,

he embraces the other coach, and he's just like, we're going to go, we're everybody's going to take a break, we're going to go eat some good food, we're going to come back, we've charged and try and go for it again next year. And he kind of sounded like that. He sort of was just like, we're not enduring anything.

Right. Everybody, if you watch the news, like, you can tell, like, this is a child's game that we play. He literally said child's game. And he was like, I can't wait to coach Kauai on Team USA, basically. Right. And he said, he has asked a question about whether Kauai was a bad teammate. And obviously, there are all those reports about, you know, they're begging him to play in the locker room and he wouldn't play.

And, you know, Tony Parker saying that comments. that really pissed him off about my injury is worse. Tony Parker, classic number one teammate. Yeah, great teammate in the past. Great teammate. And he said, no, Kauai was a great teammate the whole time. Yeah, all about basketball. Didn't really care about money.

Yeah, everything was just mellowed out. Yeah, this whole past year with the Spurs has almost been like what you were saying, Chris, just like their pragmatism, especially coming from pop, kind of clashing against the vision we've had of them as being like this progressive like bastion of an NBA frame. franchise where I think a few years ago when they kind of developed themselves as like the perfect foil for the big three heat by almost working the angles like they were one of the first teams to really embrace the corner three and find the value of it or at the very least like take advantage of it in ways that like led to such um such results where they were basically able to

take an aging core to upend one of the greatest collections of talents that we've ever seen but now you start to see with pop and like some of the moves that they've been making it really comes down to he kind of just wants to win. He just wants to go forward with who he has. He wants to have a good time. And I think with DeMar, you kind of see a team where I think I'm actually excited to see what this

team shakes out to be. I've never been a big DeMarre fan, like watching him play specifically. But like they have a lot of young guys, and I do feel like it's just, they're just going to want to go forward and take advantage of what is it? Last two, three years of Pop at the helm. Yeah. Yeah. Which, like,

for them, I get it. Although, from an outsider's point of view, it does feel weird that they're not making the sort of home run trades that we all assumed that they would. Yeah, that's a very like sort of positive way of looking at it. Sure. I think that one of the reasons why this trade doesn't feel good, and Haley, you kind of wrote about this too, is not only do you have Kauai, who hasn't really given many public statements over the last season, and when he has, they haven't really corresponded with the way that the

story has gone. So he had said recently enough, I want to be a story. spur for life. And that obviously wasn't the case. And then on the flip side, you wrote about this yesterday, Haley, is the DeMar thing sucks. You know what I mean? This is another, this is a second straight NBA season where basically a franchise icon,

first Isaiah Thomas last year, DeMar de Rosen this year, gets traded kind of in the height of their relationship, like in the peak of their relationship with a fan base. And we haven't heard from DeRosen yet. And honestly, DeRosen's not going to Orlando. Like, he's going to be in the playoffs

next year, probably. Instagram about, I don't remember the exact words with something about loyalty or, you know, something about that. And then he did not say, but there were reports that he was lied to. Yeah. Aldridge said that the Mars camp maintains that they talked to Maasai in Vegas. And I think that the wording is, I think we're left with the impression that he would not be traded. Oh, I see. And then there has been since then some reporting that suggests like, I think Zach said on his podcast, Ack Lois said on this podcast that I can't imagine

the Messiah would actually put it that way because he's just been trying to trade there's been rumors that he's been trying to trade tomorrow for two years. Yeah, I guess there's been rumors that he's wanted to blow this team up since he basically got hired in Toronto but the team was basically too good creating too much buzz in the city and the We the North stuff and the Lowry and DeRosen love story

to really like rip that thing apart. Yeah, I've been surprised by almost the reaction to DeMara leaving. I guess I never understood maybe because I've willfully ignored the Raptors over the past few years, as we all know. But it just seems, it's almost jarring to see the reaction to see DeMarr almost revered in the same way, not necessarily a Duncan, but maybe even like a Parker was with the Spurs. I mean, overall, though, I think this is kind of a brilliant move from Maasai. I think there are questions, and I think they start with having Kauai a disgruntled superstar

with a first-year hit coach and Nick Nurse, although he's proven to be kind of a brilliant offensive tactician. Like, he's been given credit for a lot of the progression they made on offense last year, especially with DeMarva Rosen shooting threes. But overall, I look at their team, and all of a sudden, it looks really good. And it specifically looks good against some of the best teams that they're going to have to, like, up end, which has been their biggest issue, the past two postseason. If healthy, I think they can play with Boston, for sure.

For sure. And maybe even the Warriors. Well, so what I wrote yesterday that I found so interesting was that, Damar wanted to be a franchise lifer at a time where that doesn't, it's not really a thing anymore. It's kind of like a player's league and they get to decide where they're going to go and even build a team. He was the Kobe proxy for a lot of people. And he got traded for a guy who doesn't want to be there and probably won't be there after this season, which is fine with Toronto because obviously they're just trying to clear out Damar's cap space. But with your point, I'm kind of interested to see like how hard is quite going to try this season.

I'm not sure if that's a fair question, but like, I mean, after all of this, his identity, he doesn't seem like the same guy who I had always attached. You know, like, okay, he's going to be this straight A student under pop. He's loyal. You know what I mean. The Terminator, we talked about, like, I think I remember the first, like, year or so of Kevin O'Connor at the Ringer. Like, he just would refer to Kauai as a robot or referred to Kauai as a Terminator. And I was just like, yeah, you know, it's like it was kind of just the casual way you would just sort of like. I'm saying Kauai's name, I'm going to refer to his lack of kind of personality and his like dedication to the Spurs way.

I wonder if we also just kind of attach that to him because it's the Spurs. Yeah. You know, like that is where people play for life. This guy gets it. This guy doesn't want any. This guy doesn't make any problems. He's only about the only about the work. He's exactly part of the continuum of Manu and Tim and Tony of guys who want to be here,

who guys who get the relationship between the team and the community. And guys who understand that like you're going to have to sacrifice. certain things to get to the finals. Well, even Pop said last year when Lamarcus came back and he revealed that he asked him for a trade, that that was the first time that ever happened to him in his entire coaching career. Right. And now it's happened twice in two seasons.

Right. And so I can see why it's jarring for both sides where you do have the lifer being replaced by the guy who maybe won't show up. But I do think it's interesting on the other end with the spurs are essentially like closing out the pop chapter with something of a Kobe problem. A guy who lives in the mid-range was probably, he was a good player. He probably had his best year of his career last year, but I think it's fair to say might be on the downslope going forward.

I think he's 29 now tomorrow. And I don't know. It just seems like the sort of cold efficient trade that people are going to be up in arms about now. But I think for both sides to move forward, it was necessary. And for the Raptors, it's the type of move that's forward-thinking enough to where you aren't two years from now wondering why you kind of committed to this like artificial ceiling. Sure.

Which we've seen from the Raptors the past couple of years. Like the Raptors all of a sudden look like a title contender, which even in the best of like what they were doing during last regular season, we weren't able to say because they were always the same sort of haunting questions about Damar specifically. It's exciting. And it kind of also reminds me of what the Spurs did this season. I mean, Chris Paul had already left, but they signed Blake and then they were like. Who the Clippers did.

Yeah. Yeah. And then they were like, you know what, this actually hasn't worked out. This thing that we've been trying to get to work for so long is not working out. Yes. It's interesting that the people that we keep bringing up in these situations are all guys who I, at least publicly, seem to be under the impression that they were franchise players. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Blake Griffin, re-sign with the Clippers after walking through like a museum of his own accomplishments and Staples. Sorry, Isaac. That was an obnoxiously loud sign. It's such an interesting state of affairs that we find ourselves in the modern NBA, where most of the guys who have stayed with their teams or, like, worked pretty hard to be really good basketball players, are now considered albatrosses on their team's salary caps, whether it's John Wall, Russell, Westbrook, Blake Griffin, you know, Chris Paul will be in a year or two. If Chris Paul breaks down again in next postseason, people are going to be tearing their hair out about the fact that he's going to be getting paid $40 million deep into his 30s.

Right. In the last CBA negotiations, they seem to make a clear effort to try to keep these guys on their current teams. A lot of them coming from small markets, and I assume that's where kind of the push came from. But if anything, it's worked against a lot of these teams where the players, the money isn't enough of an incentive for them to stay. And on the team side, the money is way too punitive and the luxury tax and all that for them to keep them. And so we're in a situation where Bill always talks about pre-agency. that seems to be more of an issue now than ever before, simply because they tried to over correct.

Yeah, we'll definitely talk about pre-agency in the second half of this podcast. I want to hit one or two more Kauai things before we go. I agree with you. I think you were talking about the potential of Toronto as like a finals team. And I actually agree that the best case scenario is that. But the weird thing about Kauai now,

and we saw this happen a little bit with Paul George, whereas at Indiana, Paul George was just like, I love Indiana and I love fishing and I love chilling with these guys. And like there was a time when we thought that George Paul George and Roy Hibbert were going to be perennial Eastern Conference

finalists. And then when he moved to Oklahoma when he asked for his trade, when he was traded to Oklahoma and the entire season in Oklahoma, you see this extra level of scrutiny because everybody is curious about what he's going to do next

and we're trying to say like, oh, the Lakers tampering with him, does Oklahoma City have a chance? Every streak means one thing or another for his, oh, they lost five in a row. He's definitely leaving. They won six in a row. Maybe he'll stay.

You know, is that like one stretch where they had Roberson, And it was like they had like a top five defense and people were like maybe this is like a really good team. I remember after a Lakers game or something, some reason he was in L.A. Yeah, and like his entire family was sitting in Corside or something. And then afterwards, whoever the sideline reporter was asked him like, so you know, this is kind of weird because you're in L.A. And like everyone knows about next season and the rumors. And he was like, yeah, I love L.A.

And I love Oklahoma City. It's like he had to even everything out. So get ready for that with Kauai. And the interesting thing about Kauai is I wouldn't say that he's, has been sheltered necessarily, but I do think now that there is a new level of intensity in the spotlight on him. And you can tell that by the fact that already,

he hasn't even spoken about being traded to Toronto, you're already getting, like Bruce Arthur, who knows the Raptors as well as anybody, talking about how there are rumors that Kauai wants to set up his own super team in Brooklyn next year or somewhere, that Kauai has already started making calls, gauging people's interest in, like, forming a super team elsewhere, not necessarily in Toronto.

So you were talking about, like, we've mentioned this a couple of times. Like he hasn't, is he going to show up basically either in terms of his effort or even physically for his medical. This is kind of a really good chess move by Maasai. This is a way of reading it. You make this trade, yeah, down the line now, you're free of the Demar contract and you can change the way the team plays, worst case scenario, if Quai leaves. but what you're basically doing is look, man,

you have like a season to rehabilitate or to save your NBA career because if Kauai dogs it or is like, yeah, my quad injury is still bad so maybe an all-star break I'll play. That's not good for him, man. At a certain point, people are going to be like, what's up with this guy?

Right, and if he doesn't show up, they can find him the extent of his entire contract or even void the trade. I think about it a lot. Obviously, the Paul George Corollary is like very clear and I think there's a chance that he might just love Toronto and love his situation. But I think about LeBron calling his Miami years, like his college years, essentially, where he went and kind of divorced himself from the world that he knew.

And also the weight of being like the savior of an entire state's professional sporting culture. Right. And it just opened his mind up to new kind of realities. Miami has a tendency to... Definitely, yeah, D.N.W.A. Just can attest to that. But I do wonder if just the act of having to show up in Toronto, having to adapt to a situation, trying to make the best of it

because financially it is in his best interest, I wonder how much that's going to affect his entire perception of Toronto, of the NBA, and what he wants from his next situation. I also think, like, what's going to affect his... It's going to affect, like, the second he walks in that locker room. Right. I think, I almost think about it more than Paul George in the context of when Kevin Durant went to the Warriors.

because he was forced to confront that he can't be this person that he was in OKC. You know, you have to be a different person now. You can't be like this for the city guy. And he, you know, it obviously affected him from all the stuff that came afterwards. The burner accounts, you know, people are never going to stop talking about that. He had to become really defensive. And I think that he too is kind of a quiet dude. And with Kwai, like, he's probably going to feel a need to.

be defensive because we've only heard one side of this and his reputation is being very quiet, but it can't be going forward. I just don't see how it could be. I'm just curious about how he's going to be greeted in the locker room, too. Well, also the media. We think about Toronto is kind of like a different world, but like they are like what, a top five market in the NBA? They have like cable sports network dedicated to all of their pro sports teams and like the Raptors have been better than the leaves, I think over the last few years. I'm sure hockey Twitter will correct me if I'm wrong. But yeah, like the Raptors have been in the playoffs.

Like Adam Neiman, who writes movie reviews for The Ringer, has, like, often just is like, as an aside in his emails about what time he's filing his pieces, we'll be like, we'll file when the Raptors are over. Kind of freaking out because of this Raptors thing, but we'll file soon. You know, like, and that'll just be because they lost three games in February. So now it's like a whole new level. Like, yeah, there's going to be increased scrutiny. You're totally right. Yeah, I mean, I just look at the beat writer culture. It's almost like a signpost for how much interest there is in a team.

There's like four or five traveling beatwriters for the Raptors. And he's going to have to get up there every day, presumably, and talk about this. Talk about his relationship with Kyle Lowery. Talk about his relationship with Nick Nurse. And I think the optimist would say, like, maybe that opens him up to Maasai and all these new situations. And maybe he realizes what a good team they have there. But on the downside, I mean, I still think like the Lakers are looming out there. and I think if there's a winner outside of the two teams actually involved in the trade,

it's definitely them. Oh, absolutely the Lakers. Because they didn't have to give up anyone and they could still very easily get to life. But one thing I would say, though, is that we just don't know who this guy is. Like, I don't know how he's wired. I don't know if he wanted to be traded to the Lakers, which I know that they said, like, his preference is L.A., I agree with you, but I just, I think that there's more shoes to drop in the Kauai story. I could see him being like, I want to play.

Like, we have no idea who he wants to play with or whether he thinks he's so good. It should be people wanting to come play with him somewhere. You know what I mean? Yeah. And a lot is going to be determined now. I think the Lakers did really well to keep a lot of these kids and not give up too much to get a second star with LeBron

because this way, like, they can kind of ease into the pool a little bit of what's going to be such a strange season for them. I think if they had gotten, a Kauai or a Paul George, it just would have been like, you guys win tonight? Did you guys win tonight? Did you guys win tonight? Are you better than the Warriors? And now it's like, make the playoffs. Right. You know, Blakers haven't made the playoffs in a couple of years. Make the playoffs. And we'll, like, that'll be a success. I think the storyline too is that LeBron signing for four years kind of almost takes the pressure off them a little bit. Because it seems like, I mean, we're all, we were all joking about who they signed because it was underwhelming.

But it seems like they are definitely building towards something. It's not. It's not necessarily like we have to win this year. Yeah. Which is surprising because, I mean, he hasn't showed any signs of slowing down, but, like, LeBron is 33. Right. Yeah. That's the biggest thing.

Like, I think it makes a lot of sense if you're looking at this from the long-term view, which based on the contract, as Haley mentions, like, it seems like that's what he's doing. At the same time, like, he's going to be 34 and I believe December. Like, how many peak years is he going to have? And I think the optimist view is, well, if he's going to downshed, shift at some point and it's probably going to come and at best two years

in some ways having that young collection of talent is going to help more than anything at the same time like they're still like basing a lot of their actions the organization on hope on on exceptionalism and it worked with LeBron but to assume

that everyone is wired in the same way is just kind of a misnomer I mean just look at Paul George. He was the one that we all assumed would take that route and he didn't. That's true. One last Kauai note before we go. Really incredible Rick Bueker tweet from the other day. First weekend of Las Vegas Summer League, I asked a rival GM about Kauai going and staying in

Toronto, quote, no chance he said. He was in the All-Star game there, never left his room. He hates the cold. That's a good sign. I hate the cold, too. That's why I live in Los Angeles. So I totally sympathize with Kauai. I can tell you guys it is literally like 85 degrees and I'm sweating and bare.

is in two t-shirts. My office is really cold. Before we go to a break, I just want to hit the other bit of free agency news that hit today, which was Marcus Smart resigning with the Boston Celtics for four years, $52 million, which is one of those weird things where it's like, we talk so much about shooting. We talk so much about like upside and potential.

And Marcus Smart is who he is. And you can see what he brings in the postseason. He basically will like sacrifice his entire body for, your team to win. Then take like seven threes. Yeah, it takes seven threes. That might be a bad. I like secretly kind of was pining for him on the Sixers.

I thought the Sixers could really use somebody like Marcus Smart, but I understand why they didn't go for him. But now in retrospect with Bialisa ghosting us and like winding up kind of, you know, on the outside looking in with some of the superstars that they had been shopping for, I kind of wish we had Marcus Smart. I know that's stupid. Any thoughts on that. the Market Smart thing?

And any more thoughts more broadly on how weird this restricted free agency class was with Jabari and Levine? I feel bad for Marcus Smart because I actually do really, I did want him to stay with the Celtics because I wanted to see this team with everyone healthy. Right. But I feel bad for him because I do think in any other market, maybe next year especially, he would have gotten more money. And he was really adamant about that. He was like, I'm not taking a hometown discount. Actually, he didn't say that. That was the report.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, he said, I'm worth more than 12 to 14 million. He got 13 million a year. And he got over four years. So, I mean, in one aspect, he got security, which is good. And another, he probably does deserve more money. And I also think that this is, I mean, it's good for him because of security.

But now the Celtics also have the security of having a very tradable contract. Right. I mean, so it kind of sucks for him as well. But now, I mean, also they have Rozier hitting Restricted Free Agency next season. They have Kyrie as an unrestricted free agent next season. And so it does give them a lot more security in all aspects of that. Yeah, it was kind of a looming threat there when you see the details of what he signed to. And you realize he's their only middle-to-year contract on the books for the Celtics.

Right. And I also want to say that he turned down an extension last fall that was four years, $50 million. in. He just signed 52 million. Like, that sucks. The, whatever cap environment that came as a result of the 2006 kind of boom, like, it squeezed out everybody. And I'm actually surprised that he got this much money. And it seems like maybe the Celtics overpaid a little bit because of that middle tier contract that they needed to swing in a trade.

So I guess, like, we'll see at the deadline what happens. But for now, I mean, yes, the Celtics are kind of loaded in the back court. But what were we saying about this team throughout the entire playoffs? It was just like their switchability. their defense. And to a large extent, he's kind of like an identity for them

on that end. Yeah. And I do feel like... And Martin Morris replaced probably the sticker shock of Hayward and Irving and you'd just be like,

oh, two All-Stars is amazing. Smart and Morris, we're like, no, we're like gritty. Everybody's, us and Baines and we're just going to like be the junkyard dogs

who get after it every night. And I also think it's easy to forget that Marcus is only 24. Yeah. So this contract... Although I think his body is like 30. after like the amount of times it's gone flying into the stands.

But yeah, you're right. This is not his last contract necessarily. I can see why everyone thinks that this is, I could see why it's probably an unpopular opinion to say that he could make more. But other teams could definitely, definitely use him. You know what I mean? He'd be very important to them. So overall, I'm kind of sad for him.

All right. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the next big questions facing the NBA. Hey, guys, before we keep going with NBA group chat, let me just tell you about some of the podcast. on the Ringer Podcast Network this week. One Shining podcast made the pilgrimage to Ohio to talk to Greg Odin,

Mark Titus, and Tate Frasier with the Ohio State's big man legend, who obviously had a very rocky NBA career, but is still a really interesting guy, and he's obviously a longtime friend of Mark Titus, so that's an amazing podcast. Also this week, The Rewatchables is covering Midnight Run. Haley, have you ever seen Midnight Run? No.

Robert De Niro, Charles Gruden, 1980s buddy movie. It's on Netflix. I just saw Heat. Did you watch Heat? Yeah. Did you like it? Yeah. Cool. I loved it.

Go subscribe and listen through your prefer podcast app or visit the ringer.com slash podcasts. All right, guys, we're back. I want to talk a little bit about next big NBA questions. And since we spent the most of this pod so far talking about Quay Leonard and the way that he exercised his pre-agency to force his way out of San Antonio, let's take a little bit of a temperature on some of the other stars. We talked briefly about Kyrie Irving, who weirdly showed up at a couple of

of maybe not super solid rumors, but like his name got circulated in Kauai talk. That was definitely in a report. Hmm. Yeah. That Boston would be more into trading Kyrie for Kauai.

Oh, I remember that. I thought that that was just like a public debate. I thought that was like a Reddit. Would you do it? And then there's also been rumors that Kairi is not planning on spending his entire career in Boston based on the fact that he went on the Bill Simmons show and didn't sound like he was planning on state.

He was kind of like, Yeah, guys today, we like to play places in a couple years and play with friends and do different things. And I can never tell what Kyrie's I'm coming home is. Because he sounded like when he went to Boston, he was like finally like a real basketball city. But is he like, he's from Jersey. Would he want to go play for the Knicks? That's the rumor. And I mean, obviously KD is out there.

And the rumors are about KD or centered around the fact that nobody knows what it's up with that guy or what he ever wants. And that rich climate is like, I want to run the Knicks one. I guess, yeah. I mean, the other thing is just. just like Kyrie and Jimmy Butler, apparently they're friends. I want to know more about that friendship, first of all. And second of all, like, weird. A lot of deep philosophical talks over Domino's is what I'm assuming.

So let's go through these guys. Let's start with Jimmy Butler, who turned down an extension, correct? Which I came out as like, he turned down an extension. And you were like, he was always going to do that. Yeah. So it was a four-year, $100 million extension. But it makes sense. And I think that everyone expected him to turn it down.

They kind of just had to offer it just because. Because next year, he's eligible for a five-year contract worth. It's projected at 188, but I think that obviously that could fluctuate a little bit. With the wolves, or it'd be 140 anywhere else. So, I mean, it makes sense. Like, of course, he was going to turn it down. That's missing out on a lot of money. But also, he hasn't sounded super pleased with the wolves.

No. Nor would you necessarily. I mean, they're essentially running back the team that they had. last year. Right, which didn't work. It had so many flaws, including its head coach. I've never seen a situation just become so sad so quickly. Like the wolves had like this long runway where they had two budding stars on rookie deals and everything to really put something together there. And all of a sudden, like we're looking at maybe a playoff team and after that their best player to leave. Well, I mean, that's what happened when happens when maybe, I don't want to say

potential flattens out, but like Wiggins is definitely not who everyone wanted him to be. And, And then they doubled down on him. And so it's hard to say, like, this is a team of the future in the same way you would Philly because there's a lot more potential shown there. And they also haven't paid for them yet. In terms of public perception, I can't think of a way this could have gone worse. Right. Because you've basically got a former number one pick that they traded Kevin Love for who is not playing like a number one pick and seems kind of like, I would say muted about his enthusiasm for Minnesota.

Then you've got Carl Towns who for like two seasons people are like, well, we found the new Tim Duncan. This is incredible. And now he is like, well, the kind of the floor dropped out beneath me because you traded for Jimmy Butler and Jimmy Butler is screaming at me about like putting on different kinds of music or like, you know what I mean? Right. They have like a love-hate relationship. It seems like. I mean, yeah, there have been reports from every single one of them that they're not happy. Right.

Wiggins was like, I mean, these are all reports. I'm not saying they said this. But Wiggins was like, yeah, I hate being the third wheel. I thought that like this was my team just as much as it was Carl's. Carleney Towns, this was the most recent one, wasn't it? Where he was like, yeah, I'm not super pleased with the front office or by talks with them. And you're right, Butler, it seemed like they, you know, didn't get along great. And then Jimmy Butler was like, yeah, these guys are annoying. They're young and they don't try hard.

Right. which would make the second team that Jimmy Butler seems like he basically tries harder than any other player. He's the most intense person in the world. Do you remember that profile from over the summer? He said something like, I have to remember that I can't get really upset with people who don't try as hard as I do because not everyone's made the same way as me. I can sympathize. So Jimmy Butler,

we imagine is this is his last season in Minnesota. I have to think so, yeah. They had to have a play-in game to make the playoffs last year year before... They had to have a play-in game to make the playoffs

before LeBron came to the Lakers. Yeah, and it must be really tough to upset all these guys when you're paying them the absolute max you possibly can. These guys are making money hand over fist and they by all accounts have been treated well

on that end of things and yet they're still upset. I think it comes down to like this just the grinding effect of Tibbs in the modern NBA. I just don't think you could take that approach to to any person let alone like a basketball player or an athlete or whatever you want to say.

It just went south so quickly and it makes me actually think about the Sixers, believe it or not. Like I think by and large it seems like they've kind of flubbed this off season. They didn't take advantage of this window to like bring on another All-Star or whatever. But at the same

time they have extended it by taking on that heat pick that they got from the trade of Zaire Smith and McKell Bridges. And it just speaks to like kind of the foresight of Hinky and Hinkyism where it's just like trying to create multiple opportunities. Whereas a team like the wolves and even the nuggets, they seem to have zoned in on this one window when like their ceiling during that window is maybe a like middle to your playoff team.

Yeah. And I can't imagine them taking the risk of changing the course in the same way. Like we were talking about Damar, you know, they were, Maasai gave up on the dream basically of that core that we saw wasn't working out. And I can't imagine the wolves or Tibbs as a GM, you know, taking action right now in this moment. Honestly, like, what do you guys think that they could do to fix this situation? Honestly, because I don't think that, I think one of the problems is that Tibbs has now fallen into the like, are we sure he's good zone? And so we definitely don't have a lot of confidence him as a GM.

So they're not going to see, even though they made the Zach Levine for Jimmy Butler trade, which I would still do like every day of the week. God, that was the peak. And then it just went so far down. Every transaction he made after that was like. It just seems like he is not the right guy to either be the coach or the GM and probably both. Because he's not going to, he never really invested in and has developed the younger talent. It doesn't look like the young guys like playing for him, you know,

And I think also just like the culture there is kind of gone and off where you hear stories about guys stat hunting. You hear stories about guys not getting along. And the West is just too competitive for a team that's like trying to figure it out. There were reports in the season where I think it was Jeff Teague, where he was super unhappy and shocked by the amount of minutes that they were playing. The entire starting five at this point. Right. And like Taj Gibson was the oldest one of the starting five and he was playing the most minutes. Yeah.

I just look at the moves that Tibbs is made as an executive this offseason, which I believe are only signing Derek Rose to the minimum and hardcapping themselves by signing Anthony Tolliver to like the maximum of whatever mid-level they have, probably the taxpayers. And like it just doesn't work anymore. And we've talked about this in the past where the coach GM just doesn't work. It's pretty much just Tibbs and pop. And we're seeing both of them recently like how that like that clash of the two roles is

not best for both sides. Yeah, right. All right, so that's the Minnesota situation. That's the Jimmy Butler situation. Other next NBA questions, I think, that are really worth talking about are who is going to be the next Kauai-like player to exercise their pre-agency? I mean, is that an Anthony Davis? Does Anthony Davis look around the league and does he want to wait out the last two years

of his contract? Or does he start to say, look, like, we made a nice run last year. I've played my entire career here. I love New Orleans, but like trade me wild. you can still basically get the biggest possible haul for me. Yeah, he's probably the one that the rest of the league wishes was the next pre-agency candidate. And I do wonder what's going to happen. But I would presume that he'll at least try to work his way through this season.

Because there is an upside to what they built last year without Boogie and some of the guys that they brought on. Like I said this after the trade happened, but they essentially just got the slim-fit versions of Rondo and Boogie and Alfred Payton and Julius Randall. I don't know if they're perfect fits, but I do look. like both players in a vacuum. Yeah. So I think there is an upside in Alvin Gentry system for both of those guys to hit and for the team to

essentially maybe even be like a top four seat in the West. The guy I would look at is not a sexy name, but I wonder what's happening with Mark Gassol. Like we've seen reports about how he's been a little unhappy. Obviously, David Fisdale, the clash with him led to Fisdell's exit. And now we're at the point

where I believe Gassal has this year and then an option for next year. He's 33. He's still a very valuable player. But the signs are just there where they're sort of in that in-between zone between a rebuild versus going for it. And the owner thinks that they're going to make the playoffs. But if you're looking at the West right now, I don't think they're going to make the playoffs. So I think there's a possibility where he gets upset and all of a sudden you're looking at maybe like a reboot around Jared Jackson. I literally can't think of a single team that would trade from Markersaw right now.

Yeah, I can't either. But I do have a guy who I think is going to have an attitude. Okay. Is it Chris? And it's legit. He should. I think that it's going to be yonet. So this is the next NBA question, what guy will have an attitude?

Yeah. I mean, maybe we shouldn't say attitude. That sounds like it's their fault. But somebody who will get upset with their team. I think it's going to be honest. Because if this team stays the same or if it doesn't get better, if they don't surround him with somebody else, it's going to be the same kind of quiet issue where it was, I mean, not injury related, but there were also reports where he was upset that they couldn't bring any talent to San Antonio.

and Janice is only making four, it's a four year $100 million contract. So he signed a pretty, for him, cheap contract and he's locked into it would start this year? Yeah.

Or it starts this year? It starts this year. So that's a long time. I'm going the other way on that. What, that he's going to be happy? I think that this team has been criminally like malcoached over the last few years.

That's fair. I think that they like punted on like the second half of the season after they got rid of Kidd with with Prunty and I think that kid was probably like interesting where he would bring this like this like let's go long and switch on defense and everything but like they basically have had not had like a good coach in at least three years yeah not to be truth is in the middle guy but I'm kind of in the middle of both of you both physically in this room and when it comes to the Milwaukee Bucks like I do think like yes I think bud will bring out the best in Yon

and some of the guys that they have on that team. Like, literally just, like, standover here is, like, a good start for those guys. And I like the bigs that they brought on this off season. I think Ilysova is a good match for Janus in the front court. I think Brooke Lopez on a cheap deal is a good match for Janus. And the type of stretch guy you need with Janus where his literally only flaws is shooting at this point. At the same time, some of the deals that they've given out in recent history and that Eliasova contract was essentially kind of on his last leg of his career, basically, I think

He was like three for 21 million. Like I think they're going to come up against some issues. And one guy I'm wondering about is Chris Middleton. I believe he's a free agent. He's next year. Next year. And he's the type of guy where you want him because he's effectively Janus' best teammate. And I think they can grow together and they play off each other really well.

We saw in the playoffs. They pretty much, besides the Cavs, played the Celtics the best in last postseason. But I do wonder he's also the type of guy that might look elsewhere or you might look to trade for some sort of like superstar upgrade. I don't know that Bud's ever had it. Like, I know how Al Horford was really good in Atlanta, but Bud's never coached a player this good. No.

No. And he hasn't. I thought, like, we're not that far away from Budnells are winning 60 plus games with nobody. And I'm... So now he has a top five NBA player and a pretty decent surrounding cast and has shown in the past that he can get way more out of guys than we thought was there. Oh, right. I mean, no, he's like one of the...

I'm not saying. He's as good as coaches Brazil He's one of those guys I think Yonis is going to be like Holy crap we're good I'm not saying They're not yelling at you I'm saying

This feels personal You're not personal I'm saying Guys do we need to take a break You guys can't see this But there's a lot of intense looks It's coming from the other side I was just this is sports talk radio

I'm going back I don't think that they're going to be better I have to say it's one thing Keep going Why I'm just saying if they don't get a lot better. He has every right to be mad. And the other people who are, I mean, think about the Warriors,

very easily one of them could get over this whole situation. It seems like it's going to be Clay or Draymond first because of money, obviously. But I mean, who knows? You can't keep four guys like that happy forever. Yeah, the warrior situation is going to be fascinating. because I don't know. They seemed so challenged by doing it for a fourth time. But like the Kerr extension, their ability to kind of like they did some nice retooling of their bench.

I don't know. Durant's one in one is very odd. But I do wonder whether or not they're going to make one more push for this fifth and fifth finals trip and make it basically like we are the best team of all time. Well, the one in one was to save money. sure. I think it's also to maximize flexibility. Right. Yeah. The one thing that I'd always been looking at is as

LeBron was going to the Lakers, it seemed more and more that the reporting indicated the reason why he was doing one-on-ones was specifically because of the trust issues with Dan Gilbert. So there are very clear reasons why he did his contracts that way. Then when he went to the Lakers, there were clear reasons why he did it that way, where he agreed long-term to Magic, a guy

by all accounts is like someone he just really sees himself in and wants to emulate in his career. But with KD there is no real reason why he's doing one-on-one except for flexibility

which I get but at the same time he's left a lot of money on the table by almost just not knowing what he wants in his career this is kind of a weird thought

and you guys can laugh at me but I would never do that okay like 30 seconds ago but okay it's also you could also make the argument

that the Warriors like it so much because it's flexible for them yeah And I'm not necessarily saying they would never not resign KD. He's the second best player in the league. But it is interesting because

his contract will be up well, could be up, and then Draymond's and Clay's as well all at the same time. So how specifically they will be able to retool that if they can? I'm not a believer that they can. I think Draymond's the sole team. I just think Draymond is the alpha on that team.

Do you think that they realize that? I think that they realize that when they need it and then when it's like Draymond either like when it's Draymond playing poorly or maybe being a little out of shape during the regular season but still barking at dudes it might get a little frustrating and then at the playoffs they're like God bless thank you so much for having Draymond on this team

because Draymond I think is why they beat the rockets you know what I mean it's not necessarily because he was so it's not necessarily because of his skills or his numbers but he's the guy who's just like, we're going to war tonight. And I'm going to keep us at an intensity level that matches like the situation. Which his intensity has always been,

you know, his greatest strength and downfall. And we're talking about LeBron falling off a hill eventually. Like, Tremont's decline will be precipitous. Sure. And it seems like to your point about like him being the soul. Like it seemed like he was the big recruiter with Boogie.

And I wonder if that might end up coming to bite him and the entire team. Not only because I think Boogie does a little bit, and plays sort of the same position as Dremont. Obviously not the defensive guy, but offensively is just an incredible upgrade when he's healthy. On the other hand,

I do wonder if Dremont's like attempt to be assistant GM and like the overall gluttony of the warriors in this era, it may come back to bite them because you have a guy who has the personality of the best player in the world. Yeah. And yet is going to be a diminished version of what even he was like maybe with the Kings.

I think there's a part of, possibility that he could take them down from the inside, is what I'm saying. And, you know, Durant and Westwick, this just made me think of that. You know, like, he, I think that they probably had issues getting along. Probably. I mean, it's probably, because, you know, the whole- By all accounts, KD was like, you know, when Russ got- You take the ball too much.

Well, and also, like, off the court. Like, they, when they first got to Oklahoma, I think it was more like, we all hang out all the time. And then Russ and some other guys got into long-term relationships. And we're just like, yeah, I'm not coming over. or we're not just going to go play video games today. Right. And if Jarmon's super outspoken about, you know, what he means to the team this year,

I don't know, maybe it could rub Katie the wrong way. Yeah, I don't know. The Warriors experiment is really fascinating because I thought last year was interesting too because everybody who covers basketball religiously, even basketball fans, are a little bit like, oh, the Warriors again. And then to see that creep into the Warriors themselves of like Steve Kirby, being like it's really hard to motivate these guys on a night-to-night basis. When the season ended, David West was like a ton of shit happen behind the scenes that you guys don't know about.

And so that's what makes this all the more sweet. It doesn't sound like it's like this harmonious... He's just getting ready for his book deal. Yeah, probably. Exactly. His MMA pod. Are there any other big NBA questions you guys want to hit before we shut it down for the summer? I do wonder what the Lakers are doing.

Like they made like the biggest move of like the past four years And pretty much every four years Whatever LeBron goes is the biggest move And they followed it up with some really questionable signings I mean this is nothing new I'm not really breaking ground here On the one hand I've come around to their way of thinking In that yes playmaking and defense are big in today's era

And like they're kind of like the forgotten things about the warriors when we all focus on the shooting when last year they had three shooters and nobody else and they still did really well. And I think there's like upside to Ingram and all these other guys. On the other hand, it's such a weird route to be so extreme about one way of thinking. And I just like I don't even know how to calibrate my expectation because on the one hand, like you could win a title with LeBron and anybody as we saw last year. On the other hand, like I think a lot of these players aren't good. I think more so than what are the Lakers doing.

I think that this is LeBron doing the same thing he did in Cleveland with the contract keeping his options open, but changing that approach to the players that he's surrounding himself. Because he had to have learned the lesson of signing. I mean, he didn't sign them. But, you know, Thompson signing that long, J.R. Smith's contract. Now he's surrounding himself with,

I'm even like saying that, oh, this is like Cleveland 2.0 from last season, they're probably going to be a better surrounding cast. Maybe. Maybe. But, you know, they're not as permanent. So I think that this was LeBron keeping his options open, just like we were saying earlier with how we did his contracts before. He's here to stay, but not necessarily the players around him.

That's a really good point. Yeah. I don't know what success for the Lakers. looks like this year. And I don't know what they can sustain in terms of any mediocrity. Like, I don't know

what they do at 500. Does that, is that a successful Lakers team? A 20 and 20 Lakers team? I don't know. And it's interesting because whenever

any other player except LeBron moves from the east to the west, we're like, well, now they're in the West. Now we've got to play the West. I don't think I've heard

one single person say that about LeBron. But it is interesting because he plays the most minutes in the league last season and in the postseason, right? Yeah. Yeah, he did.

And so it's like, you can't do that again this year. And also, I mean, it was interesting hearing Arnivots and Lowe talk about the Kauai trade. They were talking about how typically the Spurs rack up a lot of wins by feasting on bad teams. Like, they're never the team that gets caught sleeping against a Phoenix. But everybody in the West is better this year.

So whether that affects the Spurs, maybe, maybe not, but like a Lakers team may find themselves in a lot more like dog fights on nights that they thought they were going to get Ws. That's true. It does feel like LeBron is trying to downshift in his career, maybe take out like a more of a backseat, maybe get these other guys involved so he could build something long term. They're saying all the right things about like LeBron actually really wants to try it out with these kids. Right.

At the same time, like I think LeBron, like the biggest like celebrity in sports combined with the franchise that's known for Palis Intry more than any other in sports. it's only going to exacerbate like just the media explosion, just level of interest and all the other stuff. So I don't even know. If it is his goal, it seems pretty contrary to it to go to that sort of team. I mean,

what you're saying, like, LeBron is an institution, a Lakers are an institution. And now they're together. Yeah, and now they're going to have to figure out one institution to be. All right,

we will come back if anything big happens. But for now, I think we'll probably be taking a little bit of break on group chat, but we'll obviously be back for preseason. Thanks for listening for Haley O'Shaughnessy and Justin Barrier. I'm Chris Ryan. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.