The Ringer NBA Show - Kawhi Is a Fun Guy, Zion Chooses Jordan, Fixing Free Agency, and the Best Young Cores | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 25, 2019

We share our takeaways from the Los Angeles Clippers’ introduction of Kawhi Leonard and Paul George (2:04) before discussing Zion Williamson’s Jordan brand deal (17:25) and the future of free agency (23:50). Then, Zach Kram joins to explore the best young cores in the NBA according to the numbers (33:31). Host: Justin Verrier Guests: Danny Chau, Zach Kram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week, we're debuting a brand new three-part podcast series with Quentin Tarantino and Amy Nicholson called Quentin Tarantino's feature presentation. Here's a quick trailer with more info. If you go to Quentin Tarantino's new Beverly Cinema in Los Angeles, you're going to hear that feature presentation song. And when the movie starts, you're going to step in to Quentin Tarantino's brain. If you own a movie or you own a print of a film, it feels like, you're going to hear a film. Like it's your movie. Consequently, it's like if people really like the movie and they go, wow, that movie was terrific.

You know, my response was, oh, thank you very much. I was like, I took credit for it because, well, it was my print. And I put the whole thing together to show it. So I actually felt like they were complimenting me. This is Quentin Tarantino's feature presentation, a new three-part podcast miniseries hosted by me, film critic Amy Nicholson of Unspooled and Halloween Unmast. Before the release of his new film Once Upon a Time in Hose, Hollywood, Quentin and I sat down to talk about five films that he's programmed at the new

Beverly, and we wound up talking about his life, his work, and how this movie crazy kid became a director who defined a generation. Waiting for the lights to go down, and no one knows what to expect. Is this going to be one of those special times? Is it not going to be one of those special times? It's going to be a forgettable time. The first episode of Quentin Tarantino's feature presentation is out later this week. It is the closest thing to sharing a bucket of popcorn with the man himself, so subscribe now wherever you here podcasts. Basketball is very good.

The Warriors are still the best team in the league. Kyrie will be a great locker room guy in Brooklyn. R.J. Barrett's ceiling is a sixth man. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. I'm Justin Verrier joining me. Danny Chow in studio.

Yeah. I'm still not used to the group chat chant. Well, you better get used to it, my friend. All right. Well, this might even be the last time we see Danny in studio, actually, before you take a nice little jaunt to a different country. A couple months. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I'm going to savor this. We don't usually get to look eye to eye, and so I get to stare deeply into you as we talk about Gwai Leonard today. Zach Cram will also join us later in the program to talk about the best young chorus in the NBA, and Isaac Lee is here. I guess I should say hello to Isaac. Hello, hi.

I'm sure you'll be jumping in here when we talk about this first topic. Oh, I will. We're going to be jumping around a little bit to start with. We're going to talk about all the unrest amongst ownership. We're going to talk about Zion Williamson's new shoe deal with Jordan Brand. Danny Chow is going to talk about Drag and Bender. For a great, like, 20 minutes, I would say. We could do even more here.

We have the studio for longer. But first, let's talk about Kwai Leonard. Yesterday, which was Wednesday, Quy Leonard and Paul George met the L.A. media for the first time as L.A. Clippers. they did so at a court that the clippers established somewhere in Los Angeles. What's it called the Meadows? I don't know. I didn't do the proper research. But I think it was pretty interesting to see Kauai in that setting because all of a sudden we see warm and happy Kauai.

I was surprised, first and foremost, how charming Quiet Leonard is. Look, I've been saying this. The guy, yeah, the guy, like, is funny and all of, you know, Raptors media kind of, like, caught onto that. The guy's kind of funny. It's just he doesn't, he keeps his, you know, circle very tight.

Right. And I think part of it is just like, look, he's home now. I mean, he kind of let loose. Well, yes, I think it's probably that.

It's probably also that now that he's made this big decision, perhaps he's reached a point in his career where he's more willing to be that guy. He really did force his way into a certain situation in order for the organization to be built entirely around him.

And now it just seems like he's almost, willing to feed into this, unlike he has been at the previous stops, where he hasn't necessarily wanted to be there. I mean, yeah, and we're not necessarily getting ahead of ourselves. Like, the dude was still, like, barely clapping and barely laughing, and, like, but it's still something. Yeah.

I just think it's interesting whenever he does talk, because he has a wry little wit to him. Yeah. You know, he brought up, so he was talking about Toronto Raptors fans, he says, I want to think the Toronto Raptors fans, I don't have social media, so I can't put out a paragraph or whatever. Pretty funny. Pretty funny. Yeah.

And, uh, where? Yeah, he talked about taking advantage of the whole Kauai and dine movement that was going on in Toronto to, to help lure him to stay, uh, which is, if you've read anything about Kauai in his entire NBA career, not a shock. Like the dude was like very stingy with like food discounts and stuff. Like he loved Wingstop and he loved specifically the mango hobanero flavor. Okay.

And so like, we, like, there's. There are certain people in Toronto who were trying to figure out how to use that into, you know, a way to keep him. Uh-huh. Obviously, it didn't work. But yeah, like, look, these are the things you have to know about a player to really, you know, bond with them. This is why you hire Lee Jenkins? This is why you hire a Lee Jenkins. What is the wing seen like in L.A.?

Is there a lot of mango and habanero? I mean, it's out there. But I, like, to be honest, for me, that's kind of a gross flavor. It's a little too sweet. But, you know. I still haven't found, like, a go-to bar. barbecue spot. There are more popping around LA, but I don't know, it just feels a little weird to go to those in LA. I mean, the problem is with barbecue is that if it's good, there's going to be a line. And if you're not willing to wait in that line, then you're not going to be getting good barbecue.

Hmm. So, hmm. Well, I think it's interesting to compare Kauai to Anthony Davis in this regard. It seems like Kauai isn't trying hard, which is why I find him so, uh, charming and just like easy to, to understand. whereas Davis has spent the past now six months really trying to be a figure in our lives. Look, it's like every L.A. transplant for me. It's like you come in here with a certain conception of what the city is. You say you while looking at me. You know, well, because we're seated next to each other. But I'm really speaking in general. Like you have a certain conception coming from another place of what L.A. is supposed to be.

And you try to act up to that standard. Whereas people who are from here And Kauai, like, yeah, he's lived here all his life And he has such strong roots here He can kind of be himself Immediately from the get-go Isaac What do you think about Kauai's introduction here?

I thought he was very charming Everything you've said, he's witty, he was very clear about how he did not grow up A Lakers fan, which is very near and dear to my heart That he said that And yeah, I agree with Danny saying that He's from Marina Valley, which is, you know, a little bit far away from here, but he's from Southern California. He's coming home. He's, he made it

very clear he came to the Clippers or he wanted to choose an LA team because of his family and to be comfortable and to be around his core group of people. So, yeah, all in all, really, really encouraging to see him charm the media and play along, I guess. Yeah, I guess is the thing. Quai just doing what everyone normally does is an event, right? Because we're just not used to that. I thought, and to Isaac's point, I thought it was particularly interesting the contrast that they're trying to strike the Clippers organization and perhaps

Kwai was feeding into this a little bit. Between the Clippers and the Lakers, it seems like the Clippers are trying to make an effort to carve out their own niche. Clearly, they're trying to build their own stadium in Englewood that has gone through various

difficulties, including... Shouts out to what, Dolan? To Dolan, yeah, James Dolan, who owns the forum across the street and he was kind of duped and he actually has grounds for being kind of upset about what's going on there with with steve Palmer and the clipper is potentially building well defend him this is like this is unbelievable by all accounts they told him that they were going to build something else i forgot what it was right with the parking lot that was uh that he owned in addition to the forum because the forum is i guess across the street i don't know exactly what the

train looks like. And then the city just turned around and sold it to Steve Ballmer, which I'm sure is better for the city and better for Balmer. But Dolan, by hell accounts, was like totally lied to. Right. And so, I mean, I hope that like he doesn't win in that scenario, but he at least has, you can't believe you're defending James Dolan right now. Well, I'm a defender of truth, Isaac. Oh, oh, truth. Oh, okay, okay. But anyway, the Clippers are clearly trying to define themselves in this market. I'm skeptical that they'll have an immediate impact, especially because what they're kind of leaning

into is that we're the understated organization, and while that might appeal to stars like Kauai Leonard and Paul George, understated it is probably just another word for less interesting. Yeah, I think what Paul George said during this press conference was kind of interesting. It's like,

you know, we've got our own identity, we're chasing something else. It's not really about the battle of L.A. for us. We're chasing something more. And it's like, I feel like both him and Kauai have kind of fallen for that same pioneers pitch that they sent to Blake Griffin with Gandhi

and Einstein on the mural or whatever. It's like, I guess. Yeah. Wasn't this the issue with Lob City? Is that they competed on a national stage. Right. And national basketball fans were interested in them because they were such a good team.

They played such good offensive basketball. It was a very pretty style of basketball. especially when Chris Paul wasn't just barking at everybody. But in the L.A. market, they just never really rated. Not at all. I mean, ticket prices just never really changed. The Lakers were by far the worst team. Right.

But that was still the draw. It was still the draw to represent, you know, purple and gold or whatever. Yeah. It was weird. Like, to see all those Lakers fans still in, you know, Clippers' home turf. It was, like, jarring, to be honest. Right. So the Clippers are doing their best to try to cover out their own little niche here.

What was also interesting is afterward, after the press conference, Kauai sat down with Chris Haynes of Yahoo Sports, really to clear the air in a way that I don't think he's ever done with a national reporter. It does seem like every superstar ends up having his guy in the media, with whom they kind of clear the air. They kind of get their side of the story out there. In this story in particular, the few things, it was mostly like a denial of everything else that was out there.

He denied that he led on the Lakers because I guess there weren't really credible reports, but more just rumors and just like burbling whispers, just about that Kauai held them hostage as they were going through the summer. I never really fed into that all that much. It seemed pretty clear that he was just going to take his time and that anyone interested was going to have to go along for the ride. So I don't feel like the Lakers were duped per se. Do you have any feelings on that one? No, and I feel like he mentioned this later on. He was just like, I feel like it was very clear from the get-go that I wanted to play in L.A. And that, like, sure, these teams traded me, these teams traded for me.

But ultimately, that wasn't really my decision. Right. And so when I got to Toronto, obviously, I'm not going to be, you know, I'm not going to waste a season. So I wanted to make history there. I wanted to get them a championship. I did. I fulfilled my end of the bargain because the bargain was really, look, I'm on one year

on my contract left and I'm going to do what I can. But ultimately, the decision's mine after. Yeah, he was basically like a freelancer. Yeah. He fulfilled his contractual obligation. It wasn't even really reading the Tileys. It was like it was right there in front of us and it was just he's such an unknowable presence that we all kind of tried to feed into whatever, whatever, you know, suspicions or rumors that kind of latched onto him. But it's like he was pretty much a blank slate the entire time.

Right. In the absence of any information, we tend to just go with whatever we already think or whatever. people are thrown out there. And so I think it's in his best interest to be talking more. He also, to Isaac's points earlier, he denied that he and Paul George were really Lakers fans per se growing up. Yeah, Paul George has stated that many times in the past. I also don't care. Right. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Like, Paul Pierce was a huge Lakers fan. Like Anthony Davis is from Chicago and probably loved Michael Jordan. Does that matter? Zion Williamson, as we'll talk about later, was a Michael Jordan fan apparently. Like, who cares? Right. And then he also denied, I think this is the most important part

that he was the architect of the Clippers trade for Paul George. It's really coming down to semantics at this point where Kauai is basically saying he didn't go to the Clippers and demand that they trade for Paul George. He basically said, listen, I would like to play with a superstar

and the Clippers showed him a list and this is according to him and also some reporting in the Athletic recently and he just said, yeah, that would be cool and the Clippers went out and did it themselves and they landed George. I honestly imagine being like you walking into a Home Depot and like going to the paint section and the people be

showing you a bunch of swatches and then being like, Kauai, pick the one you want. Sure. And he's like, yeah, all right, Paul George, let's do it. I'll have a Paul George. I don't know if it matters much, but it does kind of undercut our understanding of this power play. And I think it's just necessary, it's like necessary to bring up if only because we're trying to get a handle on this current environment. I think we ultimately just, again,

we went straight for this idea that Kauai is this mercenary wanting to do whatever he wants and he's going to hold them hostage and he's only going to be there for two years and he's going to go wherever he wants. I think it seems to be more nuanced and so I think this is an important discussion

that he's having. Yeah, and also one thing that really struck me in the Haynes interview was how much family played a part of it and how much that seemed to bring the, topic of his free agency full circle in that he probably explained the idea of being an NBA player more clearly than I've I've heard stated in a really long time in that look he's been

in the league for eight years now and he's never once you know been able to really choose that and you know that's that's a that's a given for every every NBA player upon entering the league or at least who have been drafted and through those eight years he's seen you know nieces and nephews and uncles and aunts and everyone kind of grow over time and he only really gets to have like three months with them to see them to interact with them and so he's missing a lot of these key moments and you know ultimately it's like that's what was most important to him yeah i don't think you can fault him for that yeah i thought that was the most affecting part yeah of that entire conversation as you mentioned uh because i think we just assume because they don't

spend a lot of time in their city anyway during the season that those days in between games don't matter. And he did say just how much he missed kind of watching people grow up. And I thought that was a very human moment. An important one when we think about these things. Like, I mean, think about how we've like settled on where we want to live. We just, we want to be near people that are family or we just want to live somewhere who we want to live. If he has the ability to choose, he should just choose based on not just basketball, but some of these other things. And it just so happened that both of those things aligned for him in L.A. Right.

Yeah. And tangentially, as this was all happening, Sam Presti pointed out at a press conference today that although Paul George said that the trade demand that he made was mutual between he and the organization. We demand that you go someone else. Right. Well, I think there was this idea that the thunder were ready to move on. And I believe there was reporting, I want to say it was in the athletic piece by Sam Amick and Yobamboa. just about the Clippers whole thing, getting Kauai and George that night and kind of the things that went into that,

that the thunder specifically had nipped around the idea of trading Westbrook at the draft. So they had theoretically been talking about what they could do with this team. It seemed like they had tapped out both Westbrook and George reportedly had talked in the organization in the meantime in between when they lost in the first round and when they both inevitably got traded about like what they could do going forward. So there is some gray area there. Presti said specifically, he said politely, according to Royce Young, that he doesn't really agree with Paul George's use of the term mutual in trading him. Which I guess, I don't know if any of this matters.

I think we're getting more details, but I don't know if it changes anything for us. I don't think so. I think ultimately the both sides got what they needed and we're just going to move on from there. Right. Well, let's move on ourselves. We're going to talk about Zion Williamson now, who signed a shoe deal finally, which I was anticipating because this seems like a huge part of any superstars trajectory. But it seemed like the news kind of came and went.

Ultimately, he signed the richest annual shoe deal for a rookie in NBA history. It is only five years total, which is important to mention. The previous high was LeBron James in 2003, who signed a seven-year, $87 million deal with Nike. Although I believe the story goes that Sonny Bakaro, who's working for Adidas at the time, was promising him 100 million. And then he didn't end up getting the funding for it, which is why LeBron partially went to Nike. And then we are where we are now. I don't know. I think it's interesting just because the shoe wars are as much of an interesting kind of subplot to the NBA season as it is some of these political machinations and some of these player movements.

What's like kind of your general takeaway from this news? I guess it's a huge win for the Jordan brand, obviously, just because I can't think of a single shoe that they've had over the past decade or so that's really caught on outside of literal Jordan, like his own shoes. Right. His line that is now, I believe, in the 30s still does really well. And the retroos do particularly well. I think the retro market is probably more.

more profitable than some of the new ones. Mello was a Jordan guy, right? Mello was a Jordan guy. Russ is probably their most high profile one. CP3 is also on the brand, Blake Griffin, and then Kimball Walker. They also added Jason Tatum this summer who was Nike but has transitioned over to a Jordan guy. Yeah, so I guess right now the biggest thing is the two probably biggest shoe endorsement slash like signature shoe news that we've gotten in the summer is Janus and Zion. two bigs who, you know, bigs historically do not sell shoes.

Right. And so we're kind of entering a new era in which we'll see just how much influence a big man can kind of have on the shoe market. Right. Yeah. I mean, historically, companies have veered toward the wing type, the Michael Jordan type, specifically over bigger guys. Because they play a more dynamic brain of basketball.

There's probably something to be said that if you, want to sell shoes to the average Joe, a player that looks a little bit more like them, body type-wise, is probably makes a little bit more sense. Ultimately, they just play a sexier brand of basketball. They're just, they're the high-flying ones or the ones just making all the moves that we all kind of want to emulate. I mean, yeah, and that's kind of the interesting thing now is because Zion and Janus play like guards. Right. And so it's going to be interesting to see if that stylistic dynamic changes how, the next generation perceives, you know,

oh, this shoe is attractive to me. I want to relate to this brand. Yeah. And whatnot. Because really, there aren't very many, you know, precedents for this.

I mean, there's Larry Johnson with converse. But really for him, it was like, the shoes didn't really do that well. It was the character. It was the grandmamma character

that did really well. Ewing had a shoe. Shaq's shoes were notorious flops. You know, Sean Kemp had his, I can't really think of a single iconic big man shoe outside of like Kareem Abdul-Jubbar

back with like you know converse. Right. So I guess the bigger question here because it's not just shoes, it's like who will be the next superstar. Not only just in terms of just gameplay, who will be the best player, but there does seem to be a void forming between LeBron and who's next. I would assume Janus would be that guy. But I think a big part of it is how they relate to just

fans and just like are we as interested in their persona. Janice took this weird pivot this year where he was almost a little bit more adversarial with the media than you would expect. It seemed like he's still this nice, sweet guy and very clearly into his family. They were all with him during the MVP speech, and I think that has a certain appeal to people, but it did seem like he was a little bit more terse. And if he had a brand in air quotes, was that he just didn't do the media thing. Right.

He just wasn't willing to engage as much. And this is something that's kind of been brewing for a few years now. It was something that, you know, Lee Jenkins alluded to in his Sports Illustrated profile of him maybe two years ago. There was that quote. It was just like, I'm not that kid anymore. You know, everyone sees me as the guy who's like, oh, wow, smoothies, you know, blah, blah, blah. And now he's looking for the best, you know, elote in Fresno or Bakersfield or whatever. Sure.

Is there a good allote there? I'm sure there is. Okay. There has to be. Well, speaking of the Bucks, Janus will have some help next year. Yeah. In addition to Brooke Lopez, in addition to Eric Bledsoe, and everybody else they have there, now they have Drog and Bender.

Yes. Bender is back, baby. Two-year deal, right? Yes, you got a two-year deal with the Bucks. I didn't see details on it, but I presume it's a minimum contract. Yeah, I mean, so for the longest time, I think for the past, like, week or two, Dragon Bender has basically had a verbal agreement with Cheska Moscow to play overseas. And I think Cheska allowed him to kind of scout the fields and see if there were going to be any more NBA offers.

It was looking real tough there. I was getting pretty sad for my boy. But yeah, I think this is a, it's as good a landing spot as you can probably expect. He's another, you know, versatile, theoretical, 3 and D big 5, 4? you'd probably want to play him at the four or five, probably at the five. He's shown flashes, but there's literally flashes like every 16 games. You know? Isaac is shaking his head now.

Are we seriously doing? Are we talking about Dragan Bender right now? Hey, listen, he's only 21. Look, my last words on this, I want to see a lineup with Janus, DJ Wilson, and Dragan Bender all together. Let's do it. Let's do it. You were literally the only one who wants to see. Me and Charks.

Come on. Charks isn't here anymore, Danny. You're dealing with me. And we're going to talk about NBA owners. So, yeah, this is the last bit of news here. Owners, pretty upset with how things have gone this summer. NBA owners, or should I say, governors, in your quotes, convened in Vegas a few weeks ago.

And apparently they had a lot to gripe about the two big topics, according to reporting from ESPN. And then later, the New York Times, seemed that tampering and circumventing the CBA were kind of the things that everyone was mad about. basically the big topic is the future of free agency. Silver, kind of Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner, kind of alluded to this in his comments, the media after their meeting in Vegas. My sense, this is Silver in the room today, was especially when it comes to free agency

and the rules around it that we've got work to do soon after, according to ESPN, after this meeting that the owners had, the league opened an investigation into some of the earlier reported deals. So basically, the first deals that were coming up. coming off the board, Kemba Walker on June 30th, before the buzzer had even sounded. We pretty much knew where a lot of these guys were going. Kyrie, Kemba, yeah. Even KD. was probably soon after that, or he tried to delay the announcement to announce it officially on his Instagram account or the boardroom's Instagram account.

Right. And there was talks about, like, Bobby Portis being like, oh, yeah, we had this thing done like five days ago. Right, that they were going to meet five days ago. So I don't know how I feel about it. this. On the one hand, I do feel like something has gone wrong here, that there is an issue at play. I just don't know how you fix anything. Yeah, and this is kind of something that I'm writing about, and it'll probably go up on Friday. I feel like we've reached like a breaking point in the current structure of the NBA. So it kind of reminded me of back in the lockout year, where we kind of established what we know. to be the NBA. Like max contracts.

Before 98-99, max contracts were not a thing. That's how Michael Jordan was able to make $33 million on a one-year deal that went way beyond the actual salary cap of the team. That's how they were able to do it because they had his bird rights

and they were able to basically sign them for anything. So max contracts exists now. The rookie scale exists now. Mid-level exceptions. All of these things were to kind of keep players under team control for as long as possible. That's kind of changed over the course of the past decade or so with the new CBA with the past lockout in 2011.

But now, with all of these shorter deals, with all of these players kind of figuring out how to play their own leverage against team owners and against front offices and kind of Kauai being the guide to kind of unleash the floodgates. I think we're looking at, the next lockout, if it happens, we're looking at completely different changes to the CBA that who knows if they're going to be able to legislate or regulate. Right. Yeah. So a lot of the Iyer kind of

was focused on how to change free agency, specifically the free agency calendar and when and how teams are communicating with agencies and with their players about what their decision will ultimately be. There was even, I think the thing that really sparked debate was that there's the reports from Toronto media. Right. And also, I guess Stephen A. Smith said something to the effect that Uncle Dennis, Kauai's Uncle Dennis, Dennis Robertson, was asking for benefits outside of the CBA. Now, it's really vague. I don't know if anybody's ever really said what was happening.

Stephen A suggested that Dennis asked for houses, planes, and guaranteed sponsorship money. But he also followed that up with saying, I have no idea if this is true or not. I mean, it's a perfect way to cover your ass. Right. So I think what will end up happening is I think there's only so much you can do about this stuff. And the report from Zach Lowe and Brian Winhurst even alluded to this, they brought up the fact that the league's general counsel said that strict enforcement of these tampering rules would require seizing servers and cell phones. Yeah. Like the owners are just like, well, we want strict enforcement.

And the general counsel was just like, do you really want to know what that entails? And everyone just kind of sat on their hands. Right. And now I imagine that this conversation will continue. The investigation, as far as I know, according to reports, is still ongoing. I think what will end up happening is that they'll find out that this is a much trickier problem to solve and that there is no easy solution for it, but the tensions will remain. Right. And as you're alluding to, I think the things that they can solve are the specific, like, terms of the CPA. Yeah. And how they can keep. players, what they have at their disposal to keep players, what they can do to solve this issue in air quotes, that small markets are just at a significant disadvantage. I think ultimately what's scary for a lot of teams and I guess for a lot of owners and fans is just like money used to solve everything.

You know, in the past, the lockout was always about, you know, finding, you know, a fair split in the BRI. and just being able to toss more money a certain way would solve everything. Now we're looking at, look, the Supermax and all of these institutions in which they've tried to give players more money or tried to use money as the ultimate leverage

no longer really resonate with the top players. So what do you do after that? Yeah, I don't think it's helping the players because they don't want to stay with their teams and I also don't think it's helping the owners or some of these front offices because you end up in a situation with a guy like John Wall, one of the few people to take the money,

just being on their books forever. Russell Westbrook, another example of this. So I just don't think it's been as much of a lure as they thought it would be. And so we're now in this weird situation where the small markets are going to want to have an option, and I just don't know where that's going to come from. Yeah, and look, these players are making money, like, from outside ventures. And, you know, Lual Dang has become,

a mogul according to Forbes. He's become like a real estate mogul. Okay. I saw that story. Yeah. So like, yeah, like these players are figuring out other outlets. Like money is no longer. It's really what most people are looking for in their in their work lives now. It's like, how do I, how do I find happiness? Yeah. And I also think people are just going to adapt to the environment. They're going to find ways to circumvent it regardless. I mean, it's funny. I was driving here today in traffic and someone went on, um, on the lane that they're not supposed to be on, whatever that's called.

Sure. Rubber-necking lane, whatever. Do you know what I'm talking about? What is it called? You don't know? I don't know what you're talking about. Like, you're on the highway. Uh-huh.

And there's those lanes on the side for breakdown line. Shoulder, shoulder. Okay. Isaac gets me. Yeah. Guy in the shoulder, and he just cut around people using the shoulder. Like, people will get around the pre-established laws,

I guess is what I'm saying. They literally will go outside the lines. Okay. Yeah. You like that metaphor? Yeah, that's good. That's good. But all I'm saying is whatever they put in place, I think a few years down the road, people

will probably find ways to circumvent that. But it does feel like we're surging toward this moment where things are probably going to come to an head, specifically because around the time the next CBA negotiations happen, we'll be talking about where the next big TV contract will be coming from, especially with streaming, becoming a thing, and a lot of people pulling the plug. Yeah. So the CBA officially expires 2023-2004 season,

but there is an opt-out for the previous season. So 2020 and 2023. The Clippers won't even have given over all of the picks that they owe to the thunder by that point. Don't remind me, man. Sorry, don't remind me. Look, Kauai and Paul George might not be clippers by then.

Don't remind me. Do not remind me. All right, on that note, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and talk to Zach Cram about the best young horrors in the NBA. Today's episode of group chat is brought to you by Helix Sleep. There's nobody on the planet like you.

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We're back, Danny, Isaac, and joining us on the phone. Zach Cramm. What's up, Cram? Hello. So Zach wrote this week on the Ringer about the best young cores in the NBA. it was essentially a power ranking and I'll let Cram explain the methodology because math isn't my strong suit here.

So this is not of the various power ranking kind of things we've done. This is one of the, I think, easier to understand methodologies basically took 538, which does future player projections based on their past and kind of what the history of players with that profile looks like. forecasts trajectories for them. So I took every player in the NBA and their next five seasons, sorted them my team, and then only looked at players who are under 25. And specifically, I defined that with players who will be under the age of 25 at the midway point next year, which is how

places like basketball reference define age. So it's kind of maybe silly that like Nicola Yukic is only two months younger than Janus. And he qualifies and Janus doesn't. Obviously, if Janice were on this list, the bucks would rank a lot higher. But basically, this was an effort to determine of the young cores in the NBA, which team is the best situated and which team is the worst and where to the other 28 teams fall between those extremes. Right. This is always interesting to me because young players are always of interest in the NBA. Everyone's just looking for hope anywhere they can find it. And the teams that aren't going to be competitive now are obviously going to look toward their young guys.

it's specifically interesting now because it does feel like as the league becomes maybe not top-heavy, but there are a lot of contenders. Kramm also wrote about this pretty recently about how there perhaps is a little bit more parity than in recent past, given how successful the Golden State Warriors were. But it also feels like the teams at the bottom, they're really at the bottom, and they've collected a lot of young guys. It seems like the Pelicans, teams like the Thunder on the other end of some of these big trades for some of the superstars we've seen.

So it does feel like we're kind of in a have-or-have-not moment. And some of these young guys are super interesting. So I'm going to run through the top 10 from Kram just to start with. And then we can kind of get into it a little bit. Starting from 10, we have the Golden State Warriors, which is surprising. Number nine, the Atlanta Hawks, the Boston Celtics at 8. The Philadelphia 76ers at 7. Phoenix Suns at 6.

Minnesota Timberwolves at 5. Dallas Mavericks at 4. 3 is the Memphis Grizzlies. 2 is the Pelicans. And number one. the Denver Nuggets. Were you surprised, Kramm, when the Nuggets came first in your rankings? Yeah, you don't really think of the Nuggets as a young team, but they are among Denver Nuggets

under contract. Paul Milsap is the only one who's even in his 30s, and all of, I think, Denver's most important players are still 25 or under. Yokic, Jamal Murray, Monty Morris, Malik Beasley, and they have some young, I think, hit or miss players, too, with Michael Porter Jr. and Bull Bull, who, could turn out to be nothing, but could also be stars. And I think that puts Denver in a really interesting position because I think a lot of us, myself included, were kind of disappointed that they couldn't figure out a way to advance

further in the playoffs last year, especially with Golden State's injuries. Maybe they could have really made a run at the finals. But then you take a step back and remember, this is still a young team, which didn't have playoff experience before and presumably has a lot more room to grow together. Yeah, I mean, all of those players that you listed outside. of Milsap and a couple of the players that they acquired this year or this offseason were all drafted from 2014 and on the past five years, I believe. So yeah, like this team is very, very young. Yeah. And we don't really think about that, as Kram alluded to before, that because they were one of the best teams in the West, we kind of accelerated the growth process. But this isn't even a team we expected to be all that good last season. So perhaps next season is actually their window and perhaps even going on from them. I mean, they have. have a lot of these guys under team control. Jamal Murray just signed a max extension,

which was a little pricey for Jamal Murray, if you ask me. But everyone else is kind of there for the long haul. Gary Harris, also under contract. And as you mentioned, some of these younger guys coming in, they've done a good job of taking risks, perhaps, where a team that already has an established core

should. I also wonder if the team would seem a bit younger if Yokic didn't play like a 40-year-old. Right. Yeah. That's a big part of it too. Another team that I found just interesting from this list in the top 10 was the wolves. Another team

I think that we're specifically interested in Danny and I, because I think we're very high on Carl Anthony Towns. Cram, tell us about where towns kind of rated among some of the top guys amongst this group of 25 and under guys, or under 25, sorry.

This is basically the Carl Anthony Towns is so good that he propels the wolves that high all by himself ranking. Like if you look at over the next five years, the projected value brought by all the players, Carl Anthony Towns ranks sixth in the NBA, the top six, if you're curious, James Hardin won, Janus two, Ben Simmons three, Donchich, four, Yokic five, town six, Anthony Davis seven. So that shows like you could quibble with those rankings somewhat. I don't think anyone expects that these projections are as precise

as to determine, like, is he sixth their fifth? But basically, Carl Anthony Towns is probably going to be top 10 player going forward. He's also still really young. And the interesting thing about the wolves for me wasn't necessarily where towns rated, but where Andrew Wiggins rated, because Wiggins is still qualifying as an under 25 player, but he's not even top three on the wolves. Because they also have Culver, who they just drafted. They also have Josh Okie, who was pretty good last year. And Wiggins isn't even there. And with his contract, that's not really something that the wolves can afford if they want to take the next step to become a playoff contender. Yeah, I remember when you filed the piece and Justin and I were just kind of talking about it,

and he listed the top 10. Wolves are at number five. I was like, wait, really? Like, Wiggins isn't that good. And Justin was immediately like, oh, Wiggins isn't even on the list. It was incredible. Yeah, I mean, I do really like their team outside of Wiggins, which is a credit to that organization that they've been able to put together something around one of the biggest millstone contracts in the NBA.

man, it's just such a bummer because if Wiggins was just replacement level at this point, was just an average NBA player. If he could just be Robert Coventon. Yes, even if he wasn't even Coventon and couldn't shoot, he could just play defense. Right.

Instead of just scoring empty calorie points. And the wolves do, just to go back to talking about the Nuggets for a second, that shows how brilliant Denver's roster construction has been because Towns and Yokic basically have the same projection over the next five years, but Yokic has players to surround him. And if you look at the,

other teams in the top five here, like the Pelicans, the Grizzlies, these are teams that are rebuilding. I think they have a lot of promise, but the nuggets are already a contender. And I think that's what makes them so special as the number one team on this list, is they don't just have young talent that could be good in a few years. They're already there. Yeah. And then I guess another team talking about teams that are already there. The Golden State Warriors are one that was really interesting to me, just because you don't think of the Warriors, a team that we just saw in the NBA finals, basically. For five years. Right. Well, for five years, yes. but in this final specifically

just kind of just run out of gas when obviously they lost two Hall of Famers throughout the finals but a lot of the guys that they had to throw into the mix there were just veterans or journeymen or young guys that just like didn't really have much of a future in the NBA or had a short stint in the NBA

but I think this one is interesting because they do have to reboot here and they rebooted with DeAngelo Russell. Cram, is this the case where some of the guys that are young on this team just happened to fit right underneath that, uh, that line you kind of drew here. To some extent, I think it's also a case where you look at the dynasties in NBA history and

some have faded away after the dynasty was removed and some have maintained their success, like with the spurs. And the qualities that separate those two sides are the teams that maintain their success as their original stars are getting older. And that's true of Golden State now, Steph Curry's in his 30s, etc. they've found guys to take up the torch and support them and eventually succeed them. Obviously, DeAngelo Russell joining the Warriors, leads a lot of people to think maybe that's just a trade chip, but it's possible he could succeed in Golden State.

He's one of the players on this list pushing Golden State into the top 10. Maybe he's someone who can learn from the Warriors' All-Star Guards and compliment them for now and then take their torch in the coming years. I think that's a possibility, and that's what this ranking reflects. it's still a question mark, I think, of how all those guys are going to fit together. But on pure talent alone, it's a positive addition, I think. Yeah, I just think it's interesting because, as you kind of mentioned there, the Warriors at some point needed to pivot toward the future.

And while they did so in a very weird way by getting Russell a player who you wouldn't assume as a natural fit next to Curry, especially given his defensive concerns, they did that. They transitioned to a new era. and now, even though they still have a lot of questions in front of them in order to figure out the roster that they have, I kind of applaud them for taking that step, for really taking a swing by getting a guy in there of high caliber talent, rather than just kind of going forward with what they had. Right.

So I think that's an interesting one. Other notables on your list outside of the top 10, the Rockets at 30. I don't think there's much to say about that other than the fact that they just don't really have anything else like that. Yeah, I mean, Mory's just constantly in, I need to take the biggest swing possible mode. So, I mean, they just don't have many assets to actually, you know, hold their hat on.

Right. And then the other one here, the NICs at number 20. The NICs were the reason why I think we went forward with this exercise, assuming that they wouldn't do as well as perhaps some people might think just because they have a lot of young players, but a lot of them also aren't that good. So, Cram, tell us a little bit about the Knicks here.

Well, the good news for the Knicks is that Mitchell Robinson projects great with this system. The 538 projections think over the next five years, he'll be better than other young bigs like D'Andre Aiton. So that's great. The bad news is the Knicks have been bad for a few years now, and they've had top 10 picks for a few years now, and none of those guys looks like a sure thing.

RJ Barrett obviously hasn't played yet, But I think there's a big divide there, even among people on our own staff, on how good RJ Barrett's going to be looking at just the pure scouting versus the stats. Because his stats in college were not good. He was a poor shooter. He was a poor defender. And I think that's reflected in his projection a bit. But then also, there are other recent lottery picks. Frank Nilakina has not done much in the NBA and kind of lost playing time at the end of last season.

Kevin Knox posted one of the worst rookie seasons of all time last year. and he's young, it's certainly possible he could rebound from that, but it's also, there's not much precedent for a player who posted such poor numbers to become good again. And I think that's what this ranking reflects. Basically, even though the Knicks have drafted in the lottery for so many years now, they don't have the pieces to build around that you would expect from a team that's been in that position for so many years.

So I, you know, we'd actually made a bunch of jokes in the ringer slack about Kevin Knox's terrible. terrible rating on the 538 model. I was wondering if you looked at Kevin Knox and you literally just took him out of the picture, would the Knicks have moved up in the rankings? Doing that math in my head right now, if you remove Kevin Knox from the picture because he is a negative below replacement level over the next five years, the Knicks would probably move to like number 13 or 14.

It's pretty good. So what happens in the middle is a lot of these teams are bunched pretty close together. And there's kind of a mix where some teams like the Kings and the Jazz are basically there because they have one really good player and not much else in Deer and Fox and Donovan Mitchell. And then there are some other teams that have a bunch of like so-so pieces, but no number one star. So that's like the Spurs who have Dejante Murray and POTL. And I think the Knicks would jump up to that group along with like the Pistons too as teams with a couple good pieces but no sure thing. So let's talk briefly just about some of the other findings here. Cram, were there any things that kind of jumped out outside of the things that we talked about,

either on a team level or just about the exercise in general? I was actually really interested in the bottom of the list in addition to the top because the bottom of this list has a few teams that you would expect to see down there. We mentioned the rockets already, but also the trailblazers and bucks are toward the bottom. But that's to be expected. They have veteran groups who have been successful in the past, and you would expect them to continue pushing in that direction, as opposed to reloading just yet. But then joining them in 29th place are the Cavaliers,

and in 28th place are the Hornets. And those two teams aren't going anywhere, and they also don't have the young cores yet. So I think that underlines just the situation that those teams are in. We've heard a lot recently about how the Hornets messed up with the Kemba Walker situation, and both of those teams are just in really dire straits without the present-day success or the future potential to dream on. I found that really interesting because those teams should be where the hawks are, right? The hawks are in the top

10. They should be where the suns are, but they're just not yet. And it could be a few years before they get new lottery picks to advance them that high. Right. What about you? Anything that stands out for you? I remembered when I tried to guess the top five, I definitely had like the hawks up there. And I think right now they're at number nine, which is totally respectable. And I think it's one of those cases where you're looking at a team that basically makes a lot more sense

in the aggregate than it does kind of individually. Like especially if you're looking at the top three or whatever. Exactly. Yeah, you're looking at a team that doesn't really have a sure-fire star. We're still looking to see if Tray Young can put it together for an entire season.

And after that, it gets kind of like nebulous. there are a bunch of guys who compliment the team perfectly. They're basically creating the Warriors again in, you know, test tubes. But we haven't seen any of it actually come to fruition yet. And so it makes sense where they're at. Right. And as Kram writes, I guess DeAndre Hunter and Cam Reddish didn't fare well amongst rookie projections. That makes sense.

The two that kind of jump out to me, other than the ones that we've already talked about, the Boston Celtics being at 8, I just think that we forget about them as a young team. Like last year, they were the young team, or at least in the playoffs they were. And then all of a sudden, Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown don't have the follow-up that we expected. If you're, if you ask Drew Hanlon, apparently Jason Tatum is ready for a career year here. Locked in, bro. He's locked in. You know, I think that could just be lip service.

But on the other hand, we were talking about this guy as a potential superstar down the road. And I don't think one season of moderate gains in his trajectory should really throw us off. from that. I don't know. I think everything is aligning for him to have an opportunity with the Celtics. He could potentially be a big star for this team USA that's losing guys left and right even since we last talked about it last week with Charks.

And then Jalen Brown is just a perfect player for the modern NBA. And so I do wonder how they're going to do next year. And the other one is the Sacramento Kings at 17. I think that's the team that we all expect and think of as a young core kind of the next wave of teams.

But all of a sudden, And it just doesn't seem like there's much. I guess what I should say is maybe they're a little bit older than we expect because Buddy healed apparently is a year older than he was telling people. He was already old. Yeah, he was already old. And then Bojohn, I always get the Bogdan, I'm just confused. Bogdan is obviously an older young player in the NBA because he spent so much time overseas.

So I don't know. Perhaps that the ceiling is a little bit lower for that team than we expected. I mean, it's really just, look, can we get a full season of Bagley and what does that look like with Bagley as a starter with Bagley in a featured role? Like, what does that look like for the Kings? Because that's what you're building on. You're building on him and you're building on Deerrin Fox. And I do think that emphasizes somewhat that you have to take these results with a grain of salt. Like, does it really matter that the King's good players might be 26 instead of 25?

Maybe not. But it also underscores that some of the players we think of as rising stars are older than we think. a lot of people when this piece came out earlier this week tweeted at me like what about keros lavert keros lavert is already going to be 25 next year he's older than players like yokech who have already established themselves i believe in keros klavert but also you would probably believe in him a little bit more if you were 22 instead of 25 only thing that matters is the content cram the engagement and the content that's what i believe that's what we all believe so we have to believe in order to continue doing this.

All right, on that note, we'll wrap things up for Danny, for Isaac, for Zach Cram, and for me, we will catch you next time on The Wriguer & Getshow. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.