The Ringer NBA Show - Kawhi Leonard AND Paul George Go to the Clippers | The Ringer NBA Show

Episode Date: July 6, 2019

Emergency pod! The Los Angeles Clippers win the Kawhi Leonard sweepstakes and acquire Paul George from the Oklahoma City Thunder. Hosts: Chris Ryan, Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Our rewatchable spin-off show on Luminary called Rewatchables 1999 is taking a little summer break, but we'll be back in the fall with more movies including eyes wide shut, never been kissed, and more. In the meantime, we're launching a new show on Luminary about another influential moment in 1999 called Breakstuff, the story of Woodstock 99. The pod will dive deep on the iconic music festival and how its success and failures left its mark on history. The series begins on Tuesday, July 9th, and will be coming to you every Tuesday for eight weeks. So make sure to check out Breakstaff, the story of Woodstock 99 on Luminary.

Hello and welcome to a special emergency, emergency, emergency, emergency episode of the Ringer NBA show. I am Chris Ryan. I am joined by Kevin O'Connor. Isaac Lee is on the decks. We've had some earthquakes today in Los Angeles, so my equilibrium is a little bit off. I was in bed watching Stranger Things. And then Kauai Leonard signed with the Clippers and Paul George got charity to the Clippers for a massive, massive, massive, hall of multiple draft picks and Shage Jules, Alexander, and Danilo Galinari. It is a mind-blowing, league-changing landscape-altering trade,

and Kevin and I are here to break it down in as many ways as we possibly can, while also feeling completely shocked and stunned. So, Kevin, what is your first reaction to this trade? I thought it was a fake woe tweet when this was announced. The Clippers are sending four unprotected first-round picks one protected first round pick with two pick swaps and Shea Gildas Alexander and Danilo Gallinari to get Paul George because Kauai Leonard targeted George and was recruiting George as the player he wanted to go to the Clippers and George requested a trade from the Thunder

and then they got that massive haul to actually make it happen. Whoa, Chris. So what's your instant reaction to this situation? I feel like I'm having one of those moments in the NBA where you could tell me that you were about to say anything, that this is an amazing, the Clippers are title contenders now, this is going to change the league. You could tell me that the Clippers actually gave up too much in this situation. I'm almost trying to get my mind wrapped around this.

I think it can be all of those things, but what matters most is the Clippers establish themselves as one of the formidable title contenders in the league. The league is wide open, and there are many, many teams that you can make a case for, that have a chance to win the title. However, the Clippers were one of the most likely teams to win the title with this pairing. Look, Paul George last year was a top two, top three MVP candidate for a large portion of the season.

He's one of the best defensive players in the game, playing now alongside Kauai Leonard, also one of the best defensive players in the game, two guys that can create their own shot that can play on ball or off ball. So this team has two superstars that are lead on defense, a lead on offense, with a whole group of players still with the infrastructure that they have with Pat Beverly, Lou Williams, Montrez Harrell, then Mo Harkless adding him, Landry Schaman is a shooter, a young player like Jerome Robinson, Fiannduk, Eben Geli, a rookie. Still, they can bring back guys like Luke Bahamute and Evica Zubats.

Like this team has star power and depth. And it's very rare to have a combination like that, not just the season, but an NBA history. So for the Clippers, they may not be the favorite, but I would have them currently as the favorite in my book. I love you, man, but it is way too early in this podcast to be talking about Landry Shamit and Avica Zubach. We have to talk about like the star power in this trade. Okay, the Michael Jordan of the NBA right now in Kauai Leonard

has his Scotty Pippin in Paul George. Are we looking at the presumptive title favorites? because I feel like even though they may have given up a lot here in the future, this team is going to have so much focus. I mean, this is that we thought that George wanted to come to L.A. in the first place. There seems to be a certain logic to this move. Sure. You know, that's the funny thing is both these guys had a choice to join LeBron and they didn't,

but they just, they chose each other ultimately. Paul George in demanding the trade or requesting the trade and then Kauai with going there. These guys compliment each other perfectly, Chris. They can play either way. You can play either on ball or off ball. It's not usually when stars joined forces like we saw with the Miami Heat in the early 2010s. There's a little bit of overlap with skills. There was that with LeBron James and Dwayne Wood, both being on ball, ball dominant guys.

We saw that with the Warriors. When Kevin Durant first joined Stefan Curry and Clay Thompson and Drayvon Green, and there was a system fit issue for. for KD after years of being the ball dominant guy that he was playing in an offense that moves the ball freely. With these two, Kauai and Paul George, I don't think there's going to be much of that adjustment. Paul George has been the guy in Indiana.

He has been the guy in Oklahoma City playing alongside another ball dominant guy in Russell Westbrook. And then for Kauai, his whole life and his whole career with the spurs growing into his role, playing in an offense that moved the ball, and then becoming the guy. later in his career with the Spurs and then this past season with the Raptors as a ball dominant force. So both these guys fit immediately

with the supporting cast around them as well. Yeah, you know, you're onto something there because I think that we have seen Kauai emerge as, like you're saying, this system guy, the extension of the Duncan legacy in San Antonio, not about himself, all about his team, and he still very much is that. I mean, you saw what he gave to Toronto this year

and we'll talk a little bit about Toronto in a few minutes. But he goes to Toronto and he becomes pretty much a league icon in a way that I don't think he was in San Antonio. And in this way, and in the way that he has just handled and orchestrated his NBA free agency by waiting a few days, all the other pieces fell. And then this deal orchestrated in a way that I don't,

I don't ever remember anything this shocking happening in the NBA, to be quite honest. I mean, maybe honestly, the last time I felt this way was when Paul, George got traded from Indiana and Oklahoma. And that was just a, that, that is no comparison to what we're seeing here. Quile Leonard, not only is, is he one of the best players in the NBA? He has to be considered one of the, the real puppet masters of the league now.

Am I overstating things? Yeah, but like, think about everything that we've, you know, nobody has been able to crack this guy. We had Kendrick Perkins and Chris Carter were pretty much the only whisperers out there, the exception of maybe Jabari Y'all. from the athletic, like only guys with any insight. We've gone from the Clippers to he's going to stand Toronto, know it's the Lakers, we don't know. And now in the middle of the night on Friday night of the first night of Summer League,

this happens. Yeah, it's shocking. I was thinking earlier today, Chris, before this decision happened from Kauai, just how, you know, we don't know a lot about him. But the one thing we do know is the fact that he's always been about winning. He himself has always said he said it during the postseason. He doesn't care about being the best player on a team. He just wants to win.

Masai Ujiri said last month at a basketball while borders events that when he first met Kauai, Kauai only had two questions for him. Are you staying in Toronto? And how will you make this team better? And Jiri said everything they talked about was just about winning. Every single thing was about winning. And for Kauai is like, yes, we don't know a whole lot about him. But what we do know is he cares about winning.

And when you look at his options with Toronto, they were a team that after this season, there was a lot of uncertainty because basically their entire roster was going to hit free agency. Marcusole, Sergei Baca, Kyle Lari, all in their 30s are going to be unrestricted. Pascal Seacum was going to be a restricted free agent. Fred Van Fleet would have been unrestricted. Then you look at the Lakers. Of course they have LeBron James. And of course they have Anthony Davis. But the rest of that roster, it looks like that's going to be changing year in, year out, because they're going to be signing.

League Minutum guys. It's the clippers that were the team that offered the stability moving forward. It's just they didn't have the second star, but now they have it with the stability, just with less flexibility moving forward because they gave up so much. But Kauai ultimately got exactly what he wanted in the sense that he doesn't need to go to the have the full circus of the LeBron and the Lakers, but he still has a second star alongside him to maximize the chance. again. Why does he, he doesn't need LeBron to like step aside or help him cement his leg.

Like, Kauai Leonard has already won two rings with two different teams. And now he's in the driver's seat to win a third one with a third team. I mean, I don't know. Like, I don't feel like he needed LeBron's stamp of approval here. I have so many questions. Like, if Kevin and I sound like we're freaking out, it's because we're freaking out. It's because I was, I was just like lying in bed watching stranger things when this happened. But now I'm starting to come up with some question. So I'm just going to ask these as I come, sort of, as they come to me. So Woge had the description of the situation with Oklahoma is essentially, according to Woge, after Leonard pushed George to find a way to get to the Clippers, okay, I guess contracts don't matter anymore.

Paul George approached the team and requested a trade league sources tell ESPN. OKC was left with no choice and made the best out of a difficult situation per sources. What does no choice mean? And he repeated that a little bit later too. saying that Leonard and George met in L.A. earlier in the week, again, like that they had no choice to make a deal. I don't know what no choice means. Does that mean I'm not going to suit up for the thunder next year if you don't trade me to the Clippers? I mean, maybe he ran out of characters to say it a longer way in the sense that Paul George only has two guaranteed years left on his deal. And then he has a player option. So George can become an unrestricted free agent in 2021. So remember the

conversation in Indiana. It was always about the timing of a trade. a year in advance, you're not going to get as much for him. Maybe Oklahoma City was thinking the same thing. If you bring back Paul George for one more season, forcing him to play with Ross and Adams and Robertson in their current core, but there's the benefits of that and having a chance to make noise in the playoffs outweigh the possibility that then you enter next summer, he's still not happy and he still wants to trade,

and you're not going to get this massive trade package. To me, it's not about they didn't have a choice. They did have a choice. And they chose to essentially reset. The Oklahoma City Thunder took the most massive trade package we have ever seen. The Thunder got more for Paul George than the Pelicans got for Anthony Davis. That's what they chose. It's not they didn't have a choice.

It's that they chose this route, this path, essentially maybe towards rebuilding. I mean, who knows what they're going to do with Russell Westbrook. But now they have a young point to guard that they need to develop. And Shay Gildes Alexander, a guy who doesn't really fit next. of Russell Westbrook. So I think for the Thunder, they could be in a path towards a rebuild because Russell Westbrook is on that same exact contract

that Paul George was where he can become a free agent. Dude, I mean, anything is on the table, but I have to tell you, given Oklahoma City's legacy, this does not feel right. This feels a little bit like Harden again. This feels like there were rumors a couple weeks ago, a couple months ago that Thunder wanted to get

under the luxury tax that they did not want to be paying Adams, George, and Russ what they were paying them for a team that was going to wind up as a second round out. And that's what this feels like again. And I believe that Sam Presti is a gifted general manager and I don't know what kind of financial limitations he is or isn't working with and I'm just speculating here.

But to me, this is just, this is malfeasance, man. You can't do what you did to get Paul George. You get that lucky. You went into the playoffs last year. George could barely lift his arm. You have to try again. with that team. What are they doing there? I don't know.

To me, this deal, you had to take it. It's like you're getting, you're getting so many draft picks here. You're getting a really, really talented young player in Gilges, Alexander.

You're getting a veteran in Gallinari who, you know what? Like maybe you play with him and Adams and Westbrook and you run it back until they flame out. Maybe you do that. But you can also flip Gallinari. You could also try to trade Russell Westberg and go full rebuild here. It's like a shame that didn't work out with this court.

but honestly man like i've long felt russell westwork until his game changes he's never going to win a championship and maybe internally with oklahoma city they see that there's just an end to this maybe they see that there's an end and this was their way out with just this massive massive trade package that gives them suddenly suddenly Oklahoma city is an efficient position where they have more flexibility with their assets moving forward than any other team in the NBA because what do you think do you think we're going to wake up tomorrow night at midnight and find out that they traded Rust to Miami? I mean, who knows?

Can't rule that out? Really can't, can we? I mean, why not? Who's to say that another team won't be like, now's our chance to offer a boatload of draft picks in order to get Russell Westbrook, who has three more years left on his deal before he has a non-guarantee for

a player option for the fourth year. So this is an opportunity here to at least explore the possibility. If you're Oklahoma City, Now is the time to at least listen to offers for us, to at least think about it. Yeah, I mean, look, Shams tweeted rival NBA teams have been aware of the discontent of

OKC's two stars, Paul George and Russell Westbrook. Weak sources tell the athletic. And Leonard pushed the clippers in recent days to deliver him a second star and they did. Unreal. That is a light, you can read that two ways. You can read that as Paul George and Russell Westbrook are both

have discontent in Oklahoma or they had discontent with one another. Obviously, if Oklahoma chose to get rid of, one of them, at least now, it would suggest that the George Russ duo was not working, even though George pretty much a year ago today was like, I'll stay in Oklahoma City because of Russell Westbrook. That was why he did it. So that's the ripple effect for Oklahoma City. We've talked about what this means for the Clippers. We can talk much more about like, I mean, people who are younger, you guys don't understand, man. This is like the bad news bears

is landing Babe Ruth. This is unbelievable to see the job that the front office and Los Angeles that the Clippers have done to put together the team that they've put together to land these two guys in their prime. And I am in awe of what just happened. But let's talk a little bit about the guys across the hallway from the Clippers. What does this mean for the Lakers? Well, they are getting Danny Green.

They're signing in a two-a-two-year contract. So that was their plan B with waiting. And that's a nice addition for them, a three-and-deep. player and Danny Green. But the same questions we've been talking about last week or so, Chris, remain. How are they going to fill out the rest of this roster with League Minutum guys? What are the decisions that they're going to make in order to build a complete team around the, around LeBron James and Anthony Davis? Right now, like there's there's not a lot out there. They've already signed Jared Dudley and of course, Danny Green. But for the Lakers, from a big

picture perspective, like this is not the first time that LeBron has had a star player. pass on him. With AD, there's a lot of the clutch element there and bringing AD to Los Angeles. But now this is two years in a row now with Paul George deciding to stay with Oklahoma City and then with Kawhi Leonard deciding to do it his own way with the Clippers. I think there's something to what has been written about by, I think, maybe it was Rick Buecker at Bleacher Report or Howard Beckett. I apologize. I forget who exactly who it was. But I've heard similar rumblings where guys are hesitant to play with the brawn. And, you know, it's a little thing. but I can remember a time last season with LeBron in L.A.

And there was one time Javelle Miggi came out of the showers. And like there was just a whole bunch of media members standing inside his locker. And he's just like mumbling the F word under under his breath, annoyed constantly like saying it over and over again. Just annoyed at someone who was in his way. And he asked the media member politely, can you get, please get out of the way? And the media member really had nowhere to go. And Javeal McGee sat in the locker next to his own locker and was visibly frustrated. by it until they walked out. And there's other instances like that as well where it's like those

little things over time, I think add up. And players know that. Players talk to each other about that. So with playing with LeBron, there's the on-court element, but there's the off-court circus. There's the locker room circus as well where I'm sure Kawhi knows all about that. And he probably doesn't want to deal with that. And now he's going to have like half the media attention with the Clippers as is Paul George going there that the Lakers and LeBron are going to have. And so for them, for the Lakers, this was really their final opportunity to sign a star player in free agency.

And now they don't have the assets to go get that player through train either. So, I mean, Arash has already tweeted about how they felt blindsided, yes, by Kauai, but especially by the Paul George thing. And that they felt like they feel a little bit taken aback by that. And now Dave McMinneman is saying

that the Lakers are having conversation with the likes of Rayjon Rondo, Javelle McGee, and Catavius called Well Pope about coming back to the team. I mean, look, this is such a high leverage, high risk gamble that these two LA teams took. But the Clippers ultimately, if they had to fall back to being this sort of scrappy underdog, LA team with a fun young core and a great coach and, like, Lou Williams as a team icon, they could have done that and they could have wound up at the seven or eight seed and everybody would have been like, great job, Clippers.

See who you can get in 2020 or 2021. The Lakers were not playing that game, man. the Lakers have AD on this year. And while I cannot imagine a single possibility that Rich Paul would not deliver AD to the Lakers, and that's apparently where AD wants to be, they are now in a really, really, really tight spot with an aging LeBron, AD on the Lakers, and that's it, man. They traded the whole team for this guy. And they were really counting on this third star.

To be fair, the Lakers are still in great shape. They have LeBron James and Anthony Davis. I mean, they are in great shape regardless of the other changes that matter. I mean, like everybody's, I mean, there's some stuff out there about LeBron's not a top four, top five player anymore. He still is. When he's on, when he's healthy, when he's trying, he still is a top five player. And Anthony Davis is the best young big man in today's game. So for the Lakers, it was a necessary risk in waiting for Kauai Leonard.

And for Anthony Davis, it was a necessary move to make because for AD, you're not just invest. in the next three years of LeBron James. You're investing in beyond that. When LeBron is gone, when LeBron is old, whatever the case may be. AD is somebody that they hope can be part of the franchise for a long, long time. For the next 10 years, they would hope. But for the next three years, you're right. It's tight.

We don't know when LeBron James' decline will begin. We don't. It's going to happen. It's inevitable. It happens for everybody. For some players, it takes a long, long time for it to come. And maybe that'll be the case for LeBron where we have peak. LeBron for the next three years.

But it's tight because there's no guarantee of that. No player is immortal. And so for the Lakers, they suddenly don't have a path to finding that next guy unless somebody pops, unless Kuzma continues ascending and becomes a store player. But that's unlikely. So for the Lakers, this is what you are. This is what you are until maybe next summer when maybe some of these short-term contracts come up.

and then you're able to take a swing on another mid-level. They can't trade for Bradley Beal and they can't trade, they're out of that kind of, they spent all the assets that they had to get somebody like that. And the thing was with Kauai coming or Player X, whoever that superstar, third superstar, is supposed to be with LeBron and Anthony Davis, is I think that as we saw with Toronto this year,

if you really want your stars to be in the best possible shape going into the playoffs, you need to manage their load during the season. I have mixed feelings about like taking like the sort of prescribed load management stuff. Like I think I think sometimes it's overblown. And we don't have to get into a conversation about that right now. But I do think that that was one of the major deals with the third star was, hey, let's, let's ease the load on LeBron. Let's get him down around 29 minutes a game, right?

Let's play him 62, 65 games a year rather than 77 at 36 minutes a game chasing an MVP award. This was supposed to be about about sustainability. and now I think there's a little bit more pressure on that duo to make things happen faster. So regardless of that, yes, the Lakers will still be a contender. The Clippers will be a contender. Kendrick Perkins tweeting right now at 1134 on Friday night, I still can't believe we're recording a podcast at 1134 on Friday night. Kendrick Perkins tweeting, I would not be surprised if Russ gets traded. Sounds like OKC is throwing in the towel. This ain't over. Something is about to happen in OKC. Clay Bennett didn't want to pay the luxury tax. So that goes back to what we were saying before.

This has echoes of the hardened trade. This has just has a bad feeling of like this team sort of having a financial ceiling to their ambitions. And you have to wonder, I mean, just completely spontaneously off the top of my head here, if Sam Presti turns around and just says, you know what, I'll go, I'll go with the GM in Washington, D.C. That's okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, you can never rule anything out in the NBA apparently, right? If I'm some prissy and I've had to give up, if I've lost Kevin Durant and had to trade James Hardening, Paul George over the last 10 years, I think I might prefer watching John Wall learn how to walk again, frankly, just if I were him.

They still have Russell Westbrook. Yes, I know. So, okay, let's talk a little more some ripple effects here. Let's see. So let's talk about the team that Kauai is leaving. Let's talk about Toronto. A real feel-good story, obviously. like they now are,

they are now in a really interesting crossroads. They had their few weeks of celebration. I wish it could have lasted longer. It was inspiring, frankly, even as a Sixers fan. I thought it was really heartwarming and awesome to see a team be able to break up the kind of inevitability of the Warriors, even if it was under some tough circumstances for Golden State. What happens next for, what happens next for Toronto?

Well, I'm not sure exactly if Toronto is going to go. and a full rebuild here, but we've talked about this before. I've talked about it with Furno a lot over the years. Masayu Jiri, ever since he got hired in 2013, has wanted to rebuild. He tried to trade Kyle Lari. He couldn't get it done. He explored the trade market for Demardoos and there's nothing out there until it just so happened.

San Antonio had a player who only played nine games who demanded a trade, who wanted out, his value in the market wasn't there. And they trade Kauai Leonard to the Raptors for Jacob Pertil and DeMurter. Rose and they won a championship. What a story. It's amazing that Toronto ended up winning the title. It's improbable. But now they enter a scenario where, like we alluded to earlier,

Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, Van Vleet, and Siakam are all free agents next summer. So for Kauai, he looked at this situation and he saw a one year window. You could have come back and had a chance at repeating, but after that, who really

knows what would have happened with this Toronto roster with such an old core, Lowry Gasol and Ibaka, and then with Van Vleet and Siakum, two guys who are really good, but are going to get paid a lot of money. Van Vleet's going to get Brogden money and Seacom's probably going to get the max. And so for Kauai, it wasn't as appealing as going to the clippers. And for Maasai Ujiri in assessing this team, I do think there's at least some logic to maybe seeing what's out there for Gasol during the season. Maybe you try to play, be competitive because I do have some good young players with Siakum and Nandobie and Van Ville.

you don't have to go full rebuild blow it up mode but i think exploring the market and you know going into a a retooling period makes a lot of sense for you jerry there's so much market volatility because like if you look at i'm looking at the teams right now and i'm i'm saying are there more sellers than there are buyers if toronto becomes a seller if dc is getting in if dc starts testing the market for beale if if if oklahoma city starts testing the market for westbrook and or Adams, where are all the huge asset collections going to come from to pay for these guys? I guess that's going to be one of the more fascinating storylines as we go forward over the next few weeks because we did see the Knicks.

Okay. Talk to me about this. I didn't even, this is where I'm at. I'm not even seeing this stuff. I mean, I mean, like, I just can't, well, first of all, there's not many teams that need a point guard. So in regards to Lowry or Westbrook, especially. Westbrook in that case, if you're the Knicks, maybe you look for Russell Westbrook as your star to be the face of the franchise moving forward as your guy who can learn other free agents. There's not a lot of teams that need a point guard though, and they're one of them. So for Lowry and Westbrook, there's not many homes for them, especially because Memphis just traded Mike calmly to Utah, one of the few teams that did need a point guard. So it's nice to say that you want to rebuild and that you want to trade your stars or whatever, or your aging players like Marcus Sol,

but you need to find a home for those guys. And there would be a market for Gasol or Ernie Baca. But it's hard to find value for Westbrook making $40 million or Lowry making $35 million this coming season. It's a lot harder to find trades for those guys that make that amount of money. Yeah. I mean, I guess the thing is also, I feel really bad for Raptors fans because I, you know, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's going to be like a Marlins rebuild where the Marlins would win the World Series and then just completely dissembled the team.

This was done against their will, obviously. But I do wonder whether they strip it down and decide to build around Siakum and Ananobe, although I would say that I think a Siakum and Ananobe led Raptors team with Gassal and Lowry is probably like a four seed. I don't know about that. No.

I don't, I don't, look, I really like Seacom. I really, really like him. And it's nice that we're going to get to see him in a position now where he's going to have more responsibility and maybe he grows into that role. But I still want to put them over the Bucks or the Sixers or the revamped Pacers or maybe even the Celtics, depending on what else happens there. Yeah. For them, like there's five or the nets.

Or the Nets. Yeah. With Kyrie. Yeah. Six or seven maybe in the east. And like it sucks. But for Toronto, they're the greatest one hit wonder in history. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

This is a team that, like you said, Chris, they still have good players. And they could trade their veteran guys and still have a core with a path towards success moving forward, especially because of Pascal Seacum with what he is, because of what this franchise showed this last year with this fan base in this country that got behind them. I think for Toronto, they showed a lot that can make them an appealing franchise for that 2021 for Asian class. Because everybody, like someone tweeted me earlier tonight. what does this mean for small market franchises? You have Paul George demanding a trade from Oklahoma City. You have Kauai Leonard leaving Toronto.

Well, Toronto's not a small market. It's one of the biggest markets in the league, actually. It's one of the biggest markets in the world. It's a national market. It's just a Canadian national market. Exactly. And so they are a, they can become a destination franchise, especially 2021, a year in which the Lakers and the Clippers

and maybe the Nets and maybe the Nix, the Nix and the Raptors are going to be the two teams that are these big market destinations. So for the Raptors, now I think it's just about building forward, building for 21, building for 22. And look, like, you can be, you can definitely be mad at Coile Leonard,

but he gave you something that you'll never forget. And ultimately, at the end of the day, that guy got traded to Toronto by San Antonio, that was not his choice. It was his choice to enter free agency. It's free agency for a reason. He gets to choose where he wants to play. And all credit to him, because it turns out,

Kauai Leonard, honestly, knows a lot more about team building than I do because he was able to orchestrate this deal. I guess I have two more questions before we stop here. One is, what do you think that this trade says about player power? Because you and I were chatting briefly on text before we got on the mic. and I feel like if we're in a place where Paul George can just go up to Sam Presti and Claybetta and say, look, this is not only do I want to leave, but this is where I want to go, make it happen.

This is starting to just feel a lot more like Paul Pogba walks into a Manchester United dressing room and says, I want to go to Juventis or I want to go to Rayal Madrid, make it happen. What do you do? Are two years left on a contract not significant enough to actually have the control over the player that you need to build the team around them? or not having cap space like we just saw with the Miami Heat acquiring Jimmy Butler. They were able to create cap space out of nothing. They looked like a team that was locked into their roster for years, but they've still managed to get Jimmy Butler on a max contract. I don't know.

I mean, I'm not sure exactly what it means, but it certainly does mean the continuation of what we've seen for the last decade or so. The players are in control, and they can get what they want in that sense. And that's a great thing, really. I'm enjoying the era. of player movement. I know Colin Coward had a nice rant on the herd earlier this week where he's like, this is the evolution of parity where player movement creates parity. You have star players changing

teams all the time, so the contenders are always changing. I don't necessarily totally agree with that, but it makes a bit of sense to me because we're just seeing these teams like now Oklahoma City goes from a team that actually has maybe a shot to make some noise in this wide open league to a team that's maybe on the verge of a full rebuild. Toronto goes from a middling team that runs up against a LeBron wall in the playoffs every year to winning a title, and now they're facing a rebuild. Teams are constantly going from contender to rebuilding all the time.

But for players, Chris, I don't know exactly, because the thing is, it's not like Oklahoma City got nothing in return here because Paul George has the tree. They got everything. Mark Stein has the details. Yeah, they have three unprotected first round picks from the clippers in this trade 2022, 2022, 24, and 26, plus two firsts from Miami, the 2021 unprotected and 2023 unprotected. The 20203 is protected 1 through 14 and the right to swap picks with the

clippers in 2023 and 2025. Wow. So that's amazing. So they, they essentially rebooted the franchise. I don't, I have to imagine with the late hour and what this is happening, I just really want to know what Russell Westbrook is thinking right now. It's fascinating to me. And I also think that, you know, Kevin, we're talking about this parody and we're talking about what if there's a lot of transactional, if there's a lot of turnover among superstars

and you're creating parody in the league, it's not necessarily that erodes fan relationships with teams, which is an idea that I was kind of like chewing on earlier in the week. I think what it does is it just goes counter to the league's legacy of dynastic teams. It's going to be harder and harder to put together a five NBA title winning team, even over the course of 10 years, 12 years, than it was back in, say, the 80s or the 90s,

when you had a Lakers, a Celtics, and a Bulls sort of running the table for such a long period of time. Is this something the NBA needs to solve? Or is it just like, let it be, let it be the way it is where players, you know, I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle. I don't think you can say all of a sudden,

like, I mean, I think what we'll see is maybe the general managers are going to have to adjust to the whims of players. Maybe this means we're going to start seeing a lot more short-term contracts. Maybe we're going to start seeing longer contracts for younger players to try to lock them in for more years. I don't really know how the league could all of a sudden turn around in a post-Lebron era and say, yeah, player movement on this level with this kind of volatility.

I mean, you know, you'd have to imagine that anybody who had maybe renewed their season tickets in Oklahoma are going to be making some phone calls right now. Yeah. That's the thing that that's where you start to see trickle down effects in small markets. And that's where you start to see the ripple effects. And I don't think that there's anything Adam Silver can do about this. I just think that it's going to have a larger impact than just like, sick, you love to see it, Clippers.

Like, this is going to be a major thing that the league is going to have to wrap its hands around. I know, especially from the small market perspective, because you do have all these stars flooding to big markets, except for the Knicks. And we'll see about that in the future. Yeah, the only two places people don't want to play apparently are Lakers and Nicks. So I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same. Unless you're a clutch client. Yes, right. All right.

Let's kind of like bring the plane down a little bit here. what are some of your final thoughts as we've been kind of talking through our reactions for 35 minutes? I think that my big one is really more shoes are going to drop from this. It'll be interesting to see how Rob Polenka survives this. What LeBron's reaction is to this.

What Sam Presti's response and statements are about this on Sunday. How Russell Westbrook feels about this. How Toronto feels about this. What this does to the rest of the league because right now I think the Clippers obviously have just made themselves Western Conflict.

favorites favorites, if not heavy contenders. But I think that it's almost going to be more fascinating to see how this, this trade impacts the rest of the league for months and years to come. For me, it's always trying to think outside the box when it comes to rumors like this, because the hints were there. The hint this time with Paul George was that Kauai talked to Kevin Durant about trying to team up with him. So that was an indication of one thing for sure, that,

Kauai Leonard desired a relationship with another superstar player on a team. And it also hinted at the possibility that the preference was not with the Lakers. If he was looking for Kevin Durant to sign up to join forces with him, it at least was an indication that maybe the Lakers weren't a preference. So when it comes to that, I was thinking like, oh, maybe he could have, there could be a mystery team. Maybe he could try to look at another team like the Warriors or whatever and do some sign and trade there to get to get there.

But that didn't happen, of course. But it was actually just a mystery player in this sense with Paul George. So when it comes to all these rumors and everything that's ever out there from Woj and Stein and whoever else, you're going to read between the lines and start thinking it like the way a team does. So for the clippers, it was like for Kauai as well. It's what is the next guy that they have to acquire in order to get this guy? So with this trade, they gave up everything.

It's not just for Paul George, though. It was also for Kauai and Leonard. So that's really my main thought here is like these teams, So this is like a massive, yeah, it's the, if you look at the, if you're having sticker shock at what they gave the thunder, think about it also in terms of what they gave the league, basically, or the basketball gods for Kauai Leonard and the thunder. I'm sure, I'm sure Maasai would have been like, can we do a sign and trade or something? If you guys are feeling so generous? But you know what? It's worth it because now they are built for sustained contention for.

the next five plus years, assuming these guys don't demand trades at some point. Right. Right. So, I mean, that's what the Thunder are essentially counting on, right? Is that maybe in three years or whatever, when Kauai Leonard decides to just, I don't know, be the first great basketball player on the moon or something, that these picks will start to sort of really pay dividends. But it's fascinating to see them play the long game like this.

I don't know what's going to happen to Thunder. the more that we talk about, the more I'm fascinated with that. What a coup for the Clippers, man. I can't believe the Clippers did this. They have two of the best seven, six,

seven players in the NBA all around. Yeah, and one of the best benches as well. They have Lou Williams, six man of the year with Montres Harrell, his partner in crime in the pick and roll. So for the Clippers, they have the supporting cast

around these two stars. And the other part of it, though, Chris, is like, I think it also shows, the importance of having organizational alignment top to bottom this team from Steve Balmer and the ownership with Lawrence Frank in the front office and all the guys that they

kept, all the guys that they hired with Doc Rivers on the coaching staff down to the players. They are an organization that has one goal and the same objectives moving forward. And there are so many teams across the league where front offices have one idea of how to build and the coaching staff has another and ownership doesn't want to make the risk necessary that the front office does. You have all this dysfunction across the league. But the Clippers suddenly, from the Donald Sterling days to what they are now, are one of the model franchises in sports.

And it's because they have an organization with aligned goals. And that's what was appealing to Kauai Leonard and ultimately to Paul George. So for this team, they serve as an example for the rest of the league that, guess what? If something's wrong in your organization, maybe it starts with the owner. And that's not something you can solve. but if it is something the owner can solve, finding the right people in your organization can create a situation for you

to make moves like this. Getting Kauai Leonard and getting Paul George. Well, it still terrifies me, by the way, that they did not include Landry Shabbat in this trade because it makes me feel like Jerry West thinks he's the reincarnation of Ray Allen. So let's hope that's not the case for Sixers' fans' sakes.

Kevin, thank you so much for pulling the late shift with me here. Isaac, thank you for, Oh my God. We didn't even ask Isaac, what do you think? Yeah, let's end with Isaac. I'm the happiest of happy notes. Isaac, you take us out, man. Yeah, sure.

I am in a state of total euphoria. I have never felt this happy in my life. I feel adrenaline in my joints right now. It's incredible. I honestly don't even know how to process it. This whole time, I'm like trying to pay attention. I'm trying to produce the show. But I'm also like in my head, I'm just like championships.

Clips City, Chips City, Championships. So, yeah, that's where I'm at. I'm sincerely so, so, so happy for you, man. I'm happy for all Clippers fans. I'm sorry for Raptors fans. I'm sorry for Thunder fans. I'm excited for NBA fans because it's going to be a season unlike any we've had in a very, very long time, if not ever. We'll have plenty of stuff on The Ringer.com and plenty of stuff on the Ringer podcast network.

I'm sure Bill will do something very shortly. We'll have more pods. We'll have more reactions. Isaac, thank you for recording us tonight. Kevin, thank you for calling. All right, guys. Can we start the season tomorrow?