The Ringer NBA Show - Kawhi Saga Continued, Adam Silver’s Highlight Comment, and Five Questions Heading Into NBA Training Camp!

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Howard Beck and Michael Pina have five burning questions across the league as teams prepare for training camp. First, they discuss the continued Kawhi Leonard–Clippers saga and how this could change people's views of the Clippers. Beck and Pina also discuss what Adam Silver might have meant when talking about the NBA being a highlights-based sport. Will LeBron and the Lakers separate after the season is over? Will Cooper Flagg be the Mavericks' point guard this season? Have we seen the last of Russell Westbrook and Ben Simmons in the NBA? Will the Oklahoma City Thunder visit the White House? Hosts: Howard Beck and Michael Pina Producers: Clifford Augustin, Kate Ahearn, and Belle Roman Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What up? It's The Ringer MBA show. Howard Beck's senior writer for The Ringer. Michael Pina from The Ringer, coming to you live from the beautiful Spotify studios in Lower Manhattan. Michael, we're here today to talk about the NBA, which, as I understand it, is something we can still discuss publicly without fear of retribution or anything else. So the NBA still good under the guise of the Ringer NBA show. Howard, we'll see after I get my Clippers ticks off, if that's your statement still holds, but continue.

I mean, we will be taking some risks. We are going to talk today about with training camp just days away, which is hard to believe, by the way. So the teams that are going overseas, we're five days away, as we record on Thursday, from training camps. And everybody else a week after that, we have questions. Questions just broadly, not about training camp in general, but we have some questions heading into training camps in the NBA season.

We will cover that. but before that, you have been off of the microphone for a bit. You had a big move. Congratulations. Thank you. How's the unpacking coming? It's ongoing. It's hilarious.

It's the worst thing you can do. It's the worst thing you can do in life is to move. No one should ever move. It's terrible. Glad you survived this so far. But I did an insane number of hours of Kauai talk last week between Zaks Pod and group chat. I have finally. I heard off. I think every Kauai Clippers take I possibly have by now. I have a few other thoughts,

but you have been moving slash one eye on this story, I think. Anything that has struck you along the way here, we had new revelations from Pablo Tori and his crew this morning. Where are you at on Kauai Gate? I mean, for those who have been following my writing for the past, however many years know that I am a sad, tragic clippers apologist. This has been a tough time for me personally. And I kind of have come out on the side that this is all a vast conspiracy to distract from the fact that the Clippers are going to win the NBA championship this season. And there we go. We've just been canceled. Thank you very much. It's been wonderful. I hope everybody listened. Enjoyed yourself. No, seriously, I kind of just think that they're in a lot

of trouble and we'll see how the investigation goes. And I remain fascinated by the basketball team and how this impacts the basketball team, which I think will still be very good, unless Kauai's contract is voided and he can't play for them this season. Then I'll change my tune. But no, this is just a huge story, a fascinating story, and one that will have ripple effects for quite some time throughout the league, I think. it probably will it should um i'm still getting from and as recently as yesterday talked to another

uh long time team exec type and he's not the first one to say this but there is still an undercurrent of people in the league who are like nothing's going to come with this like nothing's going to happen and there are various reasons and rationales for why some people believe that um this is a very cynical league and i think especially at the team level people are either at at one extreme or the other, which is either they, you know, they're going to, they have to throw the book at them, and I think they will. Like, there's no way they can get away with this. There's just no way they can. And then the other extreme is, no, no, no, they shouldn't probably get away with any of this. This is alarming, but it's nothing's going to come of it for various reasons,

whether it's because the league likes bomber and values him too much as an owner or because of his wealth and his power or just, hey, it's easy to run off, relatively speaking, a Donald Sterling or a Robert Sarver, but you can't do it. that with an owner that everybody actually likes and values and has reinvigorated, a big market franchise that was never invigorated to begin with. I don't know if you can reinvigorate. So he has a different value. Also, by the way, just to be clear, I don't think anybody believes that he would be run off. Under whatever the worst case scenario is in terms of discipline, I don't think it's going to involve bomber not owning the team. But even just having to penalize

his team is something that I think some people in the league feel like, is a step they don't think the NBA will take out of deference to him. I think that's a little oversimplified. I think it's a little too cynical for my taste. I'm just saying that that is a view that is held by some. I think we'll see how much evidence, you know, or circumstantial evidence comes out. There's been quite a bit of it.

It doesn't look good. And if you do not punish or, you know, give, put legitimate consequence on these actions that are allegedly taken place based on everything that we've seen with Pablo's podcast, then I think it sends a dangerous precedent. Yes. Because who's going to stop the next team from doing what the clippers have potentially done in terms of circumventing the salary cap and undermining the collective marketing agreement, which is a big deal.

Yeah. It is, and it's why I still believe that whatever the NBA finds, whether there is a so-called smoking gun or not, whether there's a text that directly lays out or an email that directly lays out the if-then of it all, then it's unavoidable at a certain point. If it remains where it is right now, which is a heaping of circumstantial evidence,

it may be circumstantial, but it is very compelling. It's a harder thing for the MB to adjudicate because where's the bar? And only Adam Silver and his team can decide that. So I don't know. I will say this. You have been the eternal clip. I can't possibly, I can't compete with it.

I have never on the competitive side of it shared your optimism year to year, but you will recall. Smart man. Let's not declare that too soon. You will recall that I have been like on my own little Clipper Island of, I think that the mere act of acquiring Kauai Leonard and Paul George in tandem in July of 2019 was a win in itself, a win that supersedes anything. that came after in a lot of ways. Symbolically and also, and I think even practically, because up until that point, the best thing that had happened to the Clippers was Donald Sterling got forced out. Steve Balmer bought them.

Oh, and then Lob City also happened somewhere along the way. That was cool. That was fun. The Clippers were legit for a while, and they had some real stars. But it wasn't until Kauai and Paul Georgian Tandam chose them, as I have made the case over the years, that they became like a legitimate, big market, attractive, destination kind of team. And that even if they never won a championship, even if they've never made the finals, even if they only want three playoff series, during that time,

it's still a win in that we would never see them the same way again. The image of them changed, like this brand new sparkling arena. They're finally out from under the Lakers and the L.A. Kings or whatever in Staples Center. They've got their own place. From what I gather or what I've heard, I've not seen it. Apparently their new practice facility is absolutely spectacular. Somebody the other day told me it's the best one in the league. And so all of that came in the wake of getting Paul George and Kauai Leonard.

Like this was a huge moment for them. And up until now, I've thought nothing can change that. Except now I'm kind of wondering if maybe this changes that. And I wonder we are months away, folks. Like I do not expect anything to happen soon. I think it's going to be months, maybe the end of the season, before we get the Wachtell-Lipton report and a decision by the NBA on what to do about all of this and whatever new evidence comes up.

But I am already wondering how this changes how we view Kauai, especially given how this has all been driven seemingly by Uncle Dennis. How do we view Kauai? How do we view the clippers? Is it changed any of that? Like, I don't have an answer for that yet, Pina. It's something I'm playing with my own head as somebody who thought this era was a success. even by just having these guys choose them.

And does this now change how anybody views the clippers, and especially free agents and their agents view the clippers in the future? Well, if people still want them. Maybe they'll want them more for all I know. Hey, look at all the extra perks we can get illegally. I don't know. Sure. I mean, time will tell with all of that.

I don't think, I don't know. I don't think that the perception of Kauai will change all that much because he's just this blank slate and you have your opinions of him. You had them, you know, the proverbial, you before all of this, and I doubt this will change anything. I do do as well. I love Kauai. I still do.

I don't think he did anything morally wrong. But I have a question for you. Do you think the investigation will resolve itself before the All-Star break? Because I think that if this were, if more revelations were to come out, If this stuff were to trickle out in season, that sort of thing, I don't necessarily think that it would cause as much of uproar because we have basketball games and there's a lot of other stuff happening. Right now there's a vacuum to fill.

But could that be a little bit of a cloud hanging over All-Star weekend the fact that Balmer is hosting it at his new arena? I mean, that's awkward. I mean, it's great word for it. Saturday of All-Star weekend is when Adam Silver does his All-Star Presser. We're going to be sitting there. All of us gathered media in Los Angeles at the Intuit Dome in some press conference room with Adam up there in Steve Ballmer's building while he's almost certainly still under investigation. No, I don't think it's going to be resolved that quickly.

I meant to look up. I have not. But all the previous Wachtell Lipton investigations, all previous MBA investigations, by whichever law firms they've hired over the last 15 years for various matters, they never resolve that quickly. I think the bigger question might be how many different Pablo Tori finds out episodes on the clippers happen between now and then and how much evidence piles up outside of that because there's the stuff that's being done by Pablo and other media outlets.

And then there's the report that really matters the most, which is the one that the NBA does, right? like we are seeing some some version of this right we don't have the full picture most likely the league will have access to things that Pablo does not they Pablo can't subpoena the clippers phone and text records and emails and everything the NBA can demand all of that and certainly will through through walk to Lipton so I don't know there may be 15 more revelations between now and then on the public record but the report that matters most is when the NBA has commissioned and we just don't know when that's coming no I don't think it'll happen by All-Star Weekend.

I think the cloud is still hanging there, and it's going to be a really fun time we're going to have in that press conference. So fast forward to that press conference. Your first question is, Commissioner Silver, your thoughts on how the half-court heave rules have improved the quality of the game, in particular, all the highlights that it has spawned. Because it's a highlight-driven league. There's a real good connection there. Yeah, that's phenomenal. I will just say, I'm with Kevin Peltin here.

Kevin Peltin on Blue Sky this morning said this, and I feel like this is what I've been thinking to, but shout out to Kevin Peltin for saying it, I think, very well. He's saying this and something that's irked him about the overwrought, what he called the overwrought response to the comments about a highlight-driven league. He says it never comes up that the idea of watching national games on a daily basis is a purely modern notion, which is true. For those of us who are older, and I think I'm a little older than KP, but he said if you grew up in the 90s, like many of us now covering the NBA did,

You didn't fall in love with the league because you watched games every day. You had NBC doubleheaders. Even local broadcasts, he notes, were not always accessible. He said Sonic's home games were on pay-per-view. He grew up in their market. So you watched highlights on SportsCenter. Can we bring that era back? That's just better for my mental health personally.

I love the NBA so much. Love watching a lot of games. Two, three, every 24 hours, probably for me. And, yeah, two a week, sounds. tremendous. I mean, that's the thing. Because we live in an era of league pass and the ability to, like, if you had time, you could watch all, how many, 1600? What is the number? Whatever 82 times 31 times 30, whatever that number is, mathematicians help me out. You could watch them all if you wanted to, but that is not the norm. That is very much the last like 10 years of the NBA. And because we're a little bit spoiled by that, it does bring into play this whole thing of like, well, what's behind paywall? Not paywalls. What's behind, subscription models and now streaming and cable and all this versus what's over the air. And where Adam really slipped up was that he should have emphasized how many more over the air games. Opening night, I can't remember who pointed this out.

Maybe KP did too. Opening night of the NBA season is going to be on over the air TV for the first time in a bajillion years because it's not on Turner and it's not on ESPN. It's on NBC. And so where Adam stepped in it was that the question was more about affordability and accessibility for the average fan. And as he's trying to talk his way through why it's not as big of a concern, he says, and we're a highlight-driven league, and you can see all of that in a bunch of places

in TikTok and YouTube and all this. And he's not wrong. It's just wrong to dismiss the question of affordability and accessibility by veering toward, you know, let them eat cake, let them eat highlights. Like that, I get why people were annoyed by that, but I don't think it's as big a deal as some people made it out. You promised we wouldn't talk about the highlight-driven mumbo-jumbo. We're done. Can we get to the training camp questions?

We should. Okay. So training camps are opening soon. Our assignment for each other was five. I think you came up with four because, you know. Wow. You're adding me out there. Geez, Louise.

I mean, if we, the listeners can count. If we get to the end, they're keeping score at home. They're going to go like, wow, Beck had like five, six. And like peanut came up. Like, it's going to. They would know. That's fair. You were moving, and you've got two little ones at home.

I do. It's fine. Not questions about training camp per se. Five questions we have about the NBA, teams, players, coaches, schedules, whatever it may be as we head into the early pieces of the NBA season here, starting with training camp. So I'll throw it to you first. What is your first, like, burning question as camps open up?

Sure. So I wrote about this today on the ringer.com. The question that I'm, I don't know if it's the number one question I'm most intrigued by, but one that really tickles my fancy right now, when will Lowry Markinen get traded? And I say when, because I feel like, and I don't know if you agree or disagree, this is inevitable that these two parties, the Lowry Markinen and the Utah Jazz, will separate at some point. It only makes sense. He's 28 years old. The Utah Jazz spent an entire offseason going in reverse after winning a league low 17 games last season.

They got rid of John Collins, Colin Sexton for Yusuf Nerkitz trade with a second round pick going out the door to Charlotte that made absolutely no sense. Clearly they lost Jordan Clarkson, which I know to you, it's like that's a huge blow to them. Yes, exactly. I know how much you love Jordan Clarkson. He is an incredible player. So, yeah, I just, if you're Lowry Mark and someone who two years ago made an All-Star team, one most improved player signed this massive contract that disallowed Utah from because of when it was signed. He wasn't allowed to be traded last year.

Has never appeared in a playoff game in his career. He's probably the best player in the league who can say that right now, not including like Victor Wemidama or someone like that. But I just think based on where he is and how frustrated he probably will be as this season goes along on a team that's going nowhere intentionally. He will either privately or publicly request a trade or, I mean, it would just behoove the Utah Jazz to move on and get what they can from him because I think he is awesome. and there are reasons why trade negotiations could be a little bit difficult, and maybe the Utah Jazz hold off until the off season when more teams have financial flexibility and that sort of thing. But I would look to trade him now if I was Utah, and there are a few teams around the league that I think should be very,

I think every team should be interested in him, but it's a matter of can you absorb that contract? do you have the draft assets and young talent trade pieces that you that will satisfy Utah and so I think that the Venn diagram there is pretty narrow but something needs to happen and I think something will happen it's overdue yeah I mean it's overdue um Lowry Markanan has been of no particular use to the Utah Jazz for at least the last couple of years like ever since you really started to tear this thing down and he had you know he had a great season for them in 2022-23. That's the year he wins most improved,

makes the All-Star team. But even then, it's pretty clear, like, this is not a guy you're building your franchise around. He's probably best as somebody's co-star. I think he's an ideal co-star. Yes.

I think he's a perfect co-star. And so that kind of, you know, opens up the door to so many different fascinating trade partners. He's 28. He's just early prime. in the most optimistic scenario, the Utah Jazz are good again in, what, three years? Like, there's not a scenario here, and I think this is why I say it's overdue.

We are long past the point where you could talk yourself into, well, if we tear it down the fly, but we've got Markinen as one of our anchor pieces here, and we just start to rebuild around him. We're past that point. You're three years in now with him, and you're even further from competing at a respectable level than you were. It's just time. His best value to the jazz now is as a trade piece.

So, yeah, where he ultimately lands. You did land somewhere in your piece on the ringer.com today. Where did you want to send Lowry Marketing? I thought this for quite some time. I posted on Blue Sky that this was the story I was born to write. I think that Detroit Piston should trade for Lauer-Marconin. I like it. I think it's a perfect, mutually beneficial situation.

he is, as I just said, the ideal sidekick, and I think he fits so perfectly with Cade Cunningham. I also think he fits with Assar Thompson and Jalen Duren and whoever, Ron Holland is like, you know, whoever else they want to keep and are able to keep left over after they make the trade. But just, you know, a seven-footer who can shoot threes off the move, spotting up, pick and pop.

He's an independent shot creator for himself. He can post up. He can isolate. He can take bigs off the dribble. He has great gravity. He loves moving off screens. He's just, he's an awesome, malleable player who fits in so many different systems and schemes. And he also has experience with J.B. Bickerstaff, who was his coach in Cleveland and helped kind of turn his career around after he was traded there from the Chicago Bulls.

So I think it's a wonderful place for him. I think that the Detroit Pistons are ready to take the next step. and could have, should have defeated the New York Knicks in round one, one might say, after watching that series. I think there's a very good team that's ascending. And so, you know, the trade proposal that I wrote in my piece essentially is Jaden Ivy as the headliner. Tobias Harris is expiring contract because he's the four right now in Detroit. And a couple draft picks, a couple unprotected first round picks. And I think that that is fair on both sides.

Danny Ainsh has never been one to make a deal based on fairness. I think that if anything was holding it up, it would be the Aanges. And there need to have a real high bar for what they get back from there. I think whether it's Detroit or wherever it's going to be, I think that is the main obstacle at this point. That and the fact that since that big breakthrough season in Utah, it's been harder to judge marking it. Like, he's been hurt or he's been hurt in quotes.

he has been not quite as productive or as efficient. And I don't think anybody should have any concerns. I think the second you put him in a competitive environment, it's surrounded by real NBA talent, he's going to be right back to the player we saw at his peak. But I think the market sometimes can soften after a couple of lean years like that. So that's a possibility.

Can I throw two other teams out at you? Oh, yeah. So this team I didn't write in-depth on because I just didn't think it was serious. The Charlotte Hornets. Why do you want to do that to Lowry Market? Do you hate Lowry Mark? I thought you liked him.

You were trying to save him a minute ago. Now you're like... I think that he... That would be really cool. You know, he'd love watching the Mello Ball dribble 17 times before launching a 30-foot-off. I would like to think, as a glass-half-full human being for once, that he would accentuate Lamello, give Lamello space.

Brandon, he would do wonders for Brandon Miller's development. Con Canipal would be a great fit with him and they can all grow together as one. And I think that they have enough, it's also just like they have enough draft picks and kind of interesting young players and you can throw like Miles Bridges' contract

and Pat Conantin's contract and get something done there. The other one, one more team, the Memphis Grizzlies. So you have Zach Eddie, Brandon Clark, KCP, and three first round picks via the Orlando Magic from the Desmond Bain trade. Right.

Does that tickle your fancy, do you think, if you're Utah? Is that enough? I don't know. How many injured, clunky seven-footers do I need? I just like it because Tuomo Sisolow finish, Larry Markinan, finish. Connection. Nice. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just think him and Jaron Jackson Jr. in a front court with Jha. Jaws never really. I mean, that's two three-point shooting bigs that you can kind of have there. It would help you. Yeah. It's intriguing. Yeah. I mean, even to be fair, the Charlotte one is actually intriguing too. I like the thought process there. All of my lamello jokes aside. And they need at some point soon, I think, because like I get it. Like the Hornets, it's new ownership and it's new front office-ish. and they're now kind of in a rebuild mode, but like they are just, as a franchise, predating them, they've been perpetual rebuild, and at some point you have to pick a direction. So that's either find a way to supplement, complement, help Lamello right now, because you still believe in him as your franchise anchor, or if you don't,

then it's time to move on from him and really start over and find a new North star. And marketing, I think, is as good of a complimentary star there as might be available in the near term. at what point do you decide it's time to turn the corner the east is really fluid I'm not saying they'd be a contender but it's really fluid from top to bottom it would be a good time to maybe exit the bottom

my first big question and I'm just going to get this one out of the way early I just have to it will be the only time I mention this team or this name oh god LeBron where is LeBron and his head

and is he okay with the state of Lakerdom because we really haven't heard from him or Rich Paul or anyone else on his behalf. I think really since Rich Paul's statement on June 29th, the day that he opted in, when it was a lot of passive aggressive, kind of like LeBron wants to win a championship and he's happy to be here and everything else, but the Lakers need to remember that we have, you know, he's got a timeline and it's shorter and this and that. All of this kind of like awkwardness about the fact that they are now on Lucas timeline building around him didn't make a lot of dramatic.

moves over the summer, with all due respect to DeAndre Aiton, there's just not a lot to move the needle. Are they really that much closer to contention? The best thing that happened to the Lakers in the last five, six months is Luca getting in great shape. Other than that, I don't see that there's a lot to look at and say, well, this is what's moved the ball forward for them or why LeBron should feel more confident. That said, Luke is one of the top two, three players in the world. I don't know that LeBron, if he's anywhere else, is going to be able to improve on that. unless he's playing with Yokic or Shea. But I do want to, I think it's important.

And like I say, I will dispense with this one quickly. People get fatigued of LeBron talk, but we have not heard from him. We don't know where his head is at. Is he happy with the state of things? Is he still frustrated with the state of things? Is he just waiting for other moves to be made? Can other moves be made? Dan Weiki in the Athletic a week or so ago wrote about the fact that the Lakers

might be a little more aggressive now that they're moving firmly into this Luca era and things are kind of more settled. They'd been a little reluctant to make big moves over the last couple of years. I don't know where things are there. But there certainly was a hell of a lot of discussion in July, and I think reasonably so about, you know, is LeBron going to be happy here? And how do you resolve that if he's not? Because trading his contract is nearly impossible.

They're not waiving him. They're not buying him out. I think it's kind of important that he's on board with whatever the agenda is there now that it is a Luca-driven franchise. I would say short-term, my expectation for LeBron and the Los Angeles Lakers is for him to spend the season with the Los Angeles Lakers be really good. And then after the season ends, whether they go in a deep playoff run or not, he will part ways with the Los Angeles Lakers in some capacity.

I mean, that's how I'd see. Seems likely. Yeah, I just don't see. A trade probably isn't likely in season for a variety of reasons. You know, his son being on the team, notwithstanding, just the difficulty of trading a $52 million contract in season with the CBA. And, you know, the more I think about the Lakers, the more optimistic I am about them.

I'm not sure I would call them a contender necessarily, but at the same time, any team that has Luca on it, I want to just be like, you can win the championship. That's how I felt with the Dallas Mavericks. So to be fair to the Lakers, that's, like, I don't know. I mean, they don't have enough shooting. They have DeAndre Aiton as their starting center. But if Marcus Smart looks like Marcus Smart,

if Jake LaRavia, who I really like, looks like he did, or like the sixth man of the year type of candidate, it all around Swiss Army knife that he was on the Memphis Grizzlies before I went to Sacramento. If everyone, all the supplementary pieces are able to kind of stay healthy and hit shots, like I think that this could be a very interesting team, and LeBron doesn't need to be the, you know, 40% usage rate, 35% usage rate player that he's been for so much of his career. And I think that Luca is magical. And I think whether he's in shape, whether he's not in shape,

it's great that he's in shape. He looked wonderful at Eurobasket. He led all the entire field in points, which is in seven games. He scored more points than everybody else. And Larry Mark and we just talked about played nine games, finished second and total points. Luca's awesome. And I think he's one of, you mentioned Yokic, Shea, you know,

Janus, whoever else you want to put in that category of, I can single-handedly take whatever is around me and just elevate it. And I've seen him in a playoff series. I just always think about him in those playoff series against the favorite clippers when he was in his first or second or third season or whatever it was, his first taste of the playoffs. And he was unguardable. Like he was, the shots he was hitting.

It was just incredible stuff. So Lucas, it's just doubting him is stupid. Like, you know, that's as reductive as I can be. That's doubting Luca is stupid. And I don't mean to make your LeBron question about Luca, but I think LeBron's responsibilities will be so lessened and his life will be as easy as it's ever been in the NBA. And that's, you would think what he should want at this stage of his career, right? Especially if you've spent several years as he has, being a little perturbed about their inability to really you know, build a contender around him again since the 2020 team was dismantled.

And now you've got one of the top players in the league. Like this is exactly what you should want. And especially a guy who can do all the things that you do but is, you know, whatever, 12 years younger and has the ability to still do them at a really high level. LeBron still does too, by the way. But you should want somebody who can take some of that off of you when you're past 40 and when you don't know how many more seasons you've got left. I don't know how much of this is about the competitive version of him that just wants to win

versus the part of him that feels like he's been shoved to the side in terms of the priority for the franchise. But I also don't know where else you go. There's nowhere else it's going to make you the center of the franchise again at this age. And I don't know where you go that puts you in a better position to win. Yes, there are better teams, but those teams are not in the market for LeBron right now. So I don't know how this resolves if he's unhappy. I also don't know exactly understand entirely why he would be unhappy. Yes, Lucas should make his life better, his life easier on the court,

and put him in a position to at least be really competitive and maybe have a chance at a deep playoff run. I think we all agree there's like one to two tiers at the top of the West, right? There's the Oklahoma tier, there's the Houston and Denver tier, and then there's everybody else. And it's Lakers and Clippers and maybe wolves and warriors and whoever else you want to throw in there. Are we put...

Oklahoma City in its own tier? Yeah. The defending champs. Disagree. Wow. Disagree. Denver and Houston did enough to... This is a different discussion.

But Denver and Houston did enough for you to say that it's one tier. I think Denver should definitely be on Oklahoma City's tier. I'm already ready to make Denver my preseason prediction to win the West, but it's based more on the... No, no. But that's a different... It's a different exercise of a different framework. What I'm saying is, Oklahoma has by...

far the most talent and they just won the championship. Sure. They're in their own tier because of that. Houston and Denver both did a lot of really great things this summer, which if they all work out, give them the chance to be the ones to knock off Oklahoma. But that's different than saying they're in the same exact tier. I still, I know, whatever.

You can clown me for it, listeners can cloud me for it. I'm saying Denver might be my pick, but at the same time, I think Oklahoma's in their own tier. If you want to say that's a contradiction in terms, it's fine. It's a different framework for looking at it. Denver-owned tier, Oklahoma City. Wow. I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding. No, I think the Denver nuggets are wonderful. I think the Oklahoma City Thunder are wonderful. And yeah. So are we done with getting into LeBron? That's enough. I've had enough LeBron for at least three weeks. Okay.

My next question. Will the Miami Heat extend Tyler Hero? Did not see that when coming. So remind me what is the, what is the potentially on the table? On October 1st. So, you know, we're right in the middle of training camp. Training camp questions. October 1st.

Yeah, sure, whatever. We're cheating a little bit here. He is eligible for a three-year, $149.7 million extension. That is a lot. The deadline for Miami and him to come to terms on an extension is October 20th. and I feel like, you know, their relationship is not over if they don't come to terms on an agreement. If nothing happens, he would then, he has this year under contract and he has next year under contract, I think $33 million in 27, and then he is an unrestricted free agent. But I just think that it's meaningful in some sense if the Miami Heat and him do not come to turn.

of some kind and extend their partnership because he's coming off in all he's 25 years old he's coming off an all-star season he's I was digging into some of the numbers and you know watching some Tyler hero clips earlier and I think personally I focused a little too much maybe on just the warts of his game and how in the playoffs defensively he is just such a target and was just brutalized by the Cleveland Cavaliers in round one, publicly and on the court. But he's one of like the most efficient three-level shot makers in the league. He was last season, at least. And whether or not that impacts winning to the degree that the Miami Heat want,

I just think it's an interesting situation because if I'm Miami, I know that paying Tyler Hero, like this dude is not a max player, obviously on his current contract, the value around the league and trade value has been nothing. I mean, they would have moved on for him probably already to get a star if he was that in demand. So I don't think that the Miami Heat are going to offer him what he wants. And in that sense, I feel like things could devolve from there potentially because a BAM hero, you know, near Max or Max on the books long term, how are you going to get the actual difference maker

to contend for championships, which is what the Miami Heat are all about as a franchise? And I also think it's fair to wonder if you were a 37-win team last season, which they were with Hero and Bam, if those are your two... Hero making the All-Star team. And Hero-making, right, his best season at least, you know, by resume, and that got you to 37 wins?

I mean, granted, listen, the Jimmy Butler thing was hanging over them. That's a part of all this. You make a major trade, everything. Like, there's a lot else that goes into that. But I think before you throw down $150 million on an extension, I do think you have to ask yourself as a franchise for all of the things that we like about him. I don't know that he's done productively, efficiently. If all this is is good enough to make us like hovering around $500, perhaps,

is that the right investment? and I don't know. It feels like the heat, they're on the verge of that like inflection point, right? Where is this still about BAM and Hero or at least Bam and whatever you can, can you pull another Jimmy Butler, rabbit out of the hat? You need something else. Like as constructed, I don't think there's a lot to get excited about there.

And if you lock yourself into Hero for years to come, then you make it that much harder to pivot. or figure out what that next edition is. So that's a tough one. That's a good one. Thank you. All right. One more where it's,

I'm going to say the name. We will cover it as quickly as possible. We will just move on. But I have to. Can I guess? Can I guess? You already kind of know. Oh, now I don't know.

Because I was going to guess Embed. No, I'm not going there today. Thank God. Go on. I don't think, I'd be, I would worry for your mental health if I threw too many more. Joelle Embed or Sixer-Related takes at you in the offseason. I think I've overdone it as it is. Jonathan Cumminga, though.

Oh, great. He's the star of the summer. He's the darling of summer. Like, it's been the summer of Jonathan Cumminga, really. I mean, more than anybody else, more than Cam Thomas, more than Josh Giddy, more than, like, Kevin Durant trade was like eons ago. It's the summer of Cominga. ESPN wrote like a 7,000-word story. It's the summer of Kaminga.

Here's why I still think it's interesting. And my question on the Kaminga issue is this. It's not so much about what are the contract terms, years and dollars, and options, team option, player option. It's not that. That all matters, too. My question about him is, what is his market value once this gets resolved? because there's a 99% chance that once this gets resolved, he's still with the Warriors.

It's not going to be a sign and trade. It doesn't appear to be. We know that he does not want to be there. We know that they don't necessarily want him there for fit reasons and all kinds of stuff. They've got a two-year window here, basically, with Steph, Jimmy Butler, Draymond. Right.

So it's all about now. The reason I think this is interesting, I don't care about the back and forth between these two parties about what his value is and what he wants, all that matters too. But I ask the question only because his market value as a player under contract with them, who will be on the trade block the second he's eligible to be traded, has direct impact on whether or not the Warriors can actually make themselves a contender again.

Or if not a contender, how close can they get? How much can they close the gap between themselves and the top tier and a half of Oklahoma, Houston, Denver? The goal is to get into that tier. And Jonathan Coming's trade value, maybe plus or minus something else, a Moses Moody or a pick or whatever, gets you what? And I don't know what the answer to that is, but the answer to that is fascinating. So the question to me is fascinating. What is Jonathan Cummega's actual value around the league as a trade ship? Because what they can get for him will tell us potentially how good the Warriors can be for the next couple of seasons.

He's their one big trade piece to bolster whatever is left of the stuff era. So like giving your one big trade piece for DNPs during the playoffs, would that bolster the value or diminish the value, in your opinion? Yeah, this is all complicated. I mean, at the time, they're just looking to win games. games, and then when they needed him out of desperation, he came in and he really produced. I think everybody across the league understands. Now, for bargaining purposes, negotiating purposes, if you're another team trying to get him,

you're making the point that you just made, Pina. You're going to be, oh, come on. You want how many picks for a guy that you give this many DMPs to that your own coach doesn't trust? But I think, or just pick your Steve Kerr press conference quote about Jonathan Cominga, you know? What matters at the end of the day, though, is what do other teams see in him in terms of his actual talent and his value to them, right? Jonathan Cummingo will be much more valuable as a Chicago Bull, for instance, than he would be as a Golden State Warrior.

Perfect Chicago Bowl. He's going to be a better fit on other teams. He's going to be a permanent starter on other teams. He's going to be more of a featured player on other teams. And the warts that the warriors see or the fit issues that they might see, oh, we can't put him out there with both Draymond and Jimmy because of spacing issues and shooting issues does not exist perhaps on a different team. What his value is as a young player with incredible athleticism and pop and, you know,

definite scoring abilities, rebounding abilities, he should be able to be a very good defender and a switchable defender yet to be seen in actuality consistently, but he has the makeup to do all that. He's a much more valuable piece somewhere else. and so what are you willing to give up for him? Again, I'm not playing with trade machines. I don't know where we're sending him. But at some point in the next several months,

you know, first of all, in the next couple of weeks, the contract gets resolved. And then we immediately shift into where's he going and when? Because we have to wait whatever the rec was at 90 days or whatever until he's eligible to be traded. But right up there with Lowry Market in terms of guys to watch as potential midseason trades. That's all I got. We don't need to go too deep down that rabbit hole unless you've got

any other burning hot Jonathan Kaminka takes? Just I've kind of never been a huge fan of his game. I don't think that if I were a GM, I would be, you know, banging down the doors to try to get him on my team. And this is, I don't want to say it's much about nothing because of the consequence of this being, related to the end of Steph Curry's career and Steph still has a lot to give.

And I think that if you, you know, the Warriors last year with Steph, Draymond, and Jimmy together very good, post-all-Star break. Dominant even. And, you know, if Steph is healthy and doesn't pull his hammy, do they go to the conference finals and just how does it all work out? But I just don't think that this whole thing with Kaminga has. been a wonderful experience for him or the Warriors and, you know, trying to have a young piece who's growing with the aging stars in a way that he's able to compliment them and

at the same time be satisfied with his minutes and his shots and his touches. So I don't know. to be honest with you, I'm not like that interested in what happens to Jonathan Kamanga because I don't think that he's an impact player at the end of the day. And I've already started to see him as a trade chip who may bring back Royce O'Neill. You know what I mean? Listen, I talked to somebody yesterday who basically said, like, yeah, if I'm the Warriors, I would probably just take the Malik Monk and the protected pick from the Kings. I don't know that you're going to do much better than that.

The Warriors clearly think that they can and should do much better than that. I don't know, and this is why I ask the question, I don't know that the league, you know, broadly speaking, the consensus evaluation of him or what his value may be, I don't think it's not going to blow the warriors away. Now, maybe Jonathan Cominga ends up in a steady part of the rotation early in the season. They really showcase him and he really shows out and his value increases. But I don't think too many people around the league are going like, oh yeah, future 10-time All-Star or three-time All-Star, even, or even one-time All-Star.

They're not, no one is grading him that way. And so it does put, I think, a little bit of a cap on what you can get. But again, if this was Jonathan Cumminga restricted free agent of the Charlotte Hornets, I don't think anybody would care and I wouldn't bring him up. But he is the key to something for the war. He also would have already been paid. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So it's just his circumstance is unfortunate, but I also will just say that what is kind of damning to me about him is just, you know, I referenced this before, but all of the statements that Steve Kerr has made, all of the, you know, if you watch the Warriors games, you can see Steve Kerr and the coaching staff's body language whenever John Finca Mica makes a mistake on defense or takes a shot that he shouldn't have. Yeah. And playing with, and not, not, I should say, not benefiting from having Steph Curry on your team on the court with you and not looking on.

He makes the game so much easier for everyone, I would imagine. And if he doesn't make the game easier for you, what is going on with you? I don't know if that's fair or not, but that's just kind of how I perceive him thus. All right. We're down. Two questions down each. What is your third question heading into training camp? Okay.

I'll go with, I'll go to the Dallas Mavericks. And I had starter sit for a lot of guys. but this is, I think, the most, one of the more interesting ones. And it is Clay Thompson. And the question essentially translates to, will Cooper Flag be Dallas's point guard? Yeah.

Because if Clay Thompson starts, then, and you have Anthony Davis at the 4, you have Derek Lively at the 5, essentially, if Clay Thompson starts, DeAngelo Russell is coming out the bench. And DeAngelo Russell was brought in to replace Kyrie Irving as their point guard, assuming that PJ Washington isn't their starting five as well. So if Clay starts, who's the point guard, it's Cooper Flagg. If Clay doesn't start, DeAngler Russell starts, he's the point

guard, and Cooper Flagg can play some other normal position that he would be as a rookie on a team that's supposed to be competitive in the eyes of many. So I think that's just really fascinating in terms of what we're going to see out of Cooper Flag. And it's less about how Clay will handle coming off the bench, which he did not do, he did not handle that great, understandably at the end of his tenure with the Golden State Warriors. So I don't know if you, if there's a lot of meat here for you to chew on, but I think that Cooper Flag is just a really interesting variable as we head into this season.

But it also underscores to me in a weird way the folly of the whole like Luca for Anthony Davis thing because what happened at the moment they did that and Nico Harrison's explanation about like, you know, we want to, you know, we're trying to win now. We're not worried about the future. It's a win now. They get this just absolute gift from the basketball gods of winning the lottery and they get Cooper flag, but you

still have Anthony Davis sitting there at 32, 33, whatever. And the reason I bring that up is this. In a world where they don't have Anthony Davis and a veteran-laden lineup and, you know, Kyrie Irving off the side rehabbing, in a world where you're just the bad team that won the lottery, that got the guy that could be the future of your franchise, what do you do? You go, oh, I don't know if Cooper Flagg, is he a secondary ball handler? Is he a point forward? Is he a point guard?

What is he? I don't know. Let's just use his rookie year. to let them do everything and see where we land because we don't care about wins and losses. Except they have said themselves. They have laid the definition out for themselves. We want to win championships,

and we want to do it with Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving as our tent pulls. Kyrie's out for the season. Anthony Davis is now, you know, an anchor of a lineup that is mostly veteran, but with this really intriguing super young player, I would rather just have the freedom to just experiment put the ball in his hands a gazillion times. See what he is.

See what he can do. You know, we've got DeAngelo Russell as kind of our fail safe. Here's a seasoned hand for better or worse. I didn't mean. I didn't mean I wasn't drinking water when you said that. I didn't mean that as like a shot. It's just kind of the reality of his career. But like, they have made it very clear.

They've put the mandate on themselves and the pressure on themselves to win now. And that's at odds, I think, with being. able to just give Cooper flag all the latitude in the world to just experiment and see what he can do do as a rookie. But I like the question. And I do think the Mavericks are fascinating for all of the above. Do you think they'll be good? No. I don't think it'll be terrible, but the West is so competitive. I don't think it's a guarantee. I don't think they're a top six team. So now you're in play and range. So they're probably somewhere in seven to ten range. And, there's a scenario where Anthony Davis misses 30 games and they don't make the play.

A very likely scenario. Yeah. I mean, there's a scenario where they don't make the play in. Like, as talented as Cooper Flag is, as high on him as everybody around the league is, it's asking a lot of him to prop them up with Kyrie out and if Anthony Davis then misses a bunch of time, as he usually does. Not a lot of playmaking on that roster otherwise. No.

Aside from the for better or worse, DeAngelo Russell. So on that depressing note, how about this? Let's do it. Is it over for Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook? I was waiting for this one. Ben Simmons, 29 years old, unsigned. Russell Westbrook, 37 years old in November, so almost 37, unsigned. It is September 18th.

And teams that were looking for guard help, have passed on Russell Westbrook so far. Teams that we're looking for just whatever, plug and play, play any position help have passed on Ben Simmons. I am told pretty definitively that whatever was put out there about Ben Simmons turning down the Knicks

was absolutely untrue. They never offered him anything. So in Russell Westbrook's case, pretty productive season for the Nuggets, some high highs and some bad lows at times in the playoffs in critical moments, but still a very productive and impactful player.

Very impactful. Should I say for better or worse? We don't. But with Russ, he's 37. That's a normal time to start to wonder if a guy's not signed. Well, maybe it's just the end. He's 37. And Ben Simmons's case, he's 29.

Like, he should be in the middle of his prime. And, you know, it feels like it was not all that long ago that he was an all-MBA third-team player in Philly. I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but here we are. Like, these are, Westbrook's an incredibly decorated player. His resume, his Hall of Fame credentials are secure. MVP, nine-time All-Star, nine-time All-MBA, two-time scoring champ. He was on the 75th anniversary team.

Like, whatever this, if this is the end for him, Russ is fine. If this is the end for Ben Simmons to go from first overall pick, generational transcendent talent type who had all the hype in the world coming with him, to not, you know, we're not even 10 years later. It was the number one pick in 2016. It's been less than 10 years. And here we are wondering if his career is over. One of the weirdest careers since I've been alive, frankly.

Guess how many points per game Ben Simmons averaged for the Los Angeles Clippers last year? I'm going to say like 2.3. Wow, 2.9. Yeah. I don't see, what is the rationale for signing Ben Simmons at this point? So it's a great question. It's a fair question. And I guess the answer is that there isn't one because he's unsigned.

I think if you were going to talk yourself into him, as the Clippers did on the back part of the season, well, at minimum, if he's not going to score, here's a guy who's 610, and if our center needs a blow, we can put him in. If our point guard needs a blow, we can put him in. He can play any position. He can guard any position. That was the outline of Ben Simmons once upon a time. And he can still, especially against Biggs, he can still, like, hold up a guy and play some defense in the post. But, like, in terms of as a perimeter guy who can guard one through five, which was at one time part of his calling card, one of the things that he was best at, like, that guy's gone.

Whether it's the back injuries, other issues with his body, or just whether or not his head is in the game, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that. version of Ben Simmons seems to be gone. And so, yeah, I do think that it's, like, that's the question. What is the allure of him now? He doesn't want to shoot. He doesn't want to score. He's a gifted passer, an incredibly high basketball like Hugh. Loves to pass. He would, he would prefer to do that at all times. But there's too, there's too many deficiencies in the game now. And I just, and if at one point you could, you could throw him out there and guard anybody, plug him in any way. position, that guy's gone. So what is left? Unless you really believe that you're the team

whose medical staff and trainers are going to get him back to who he was in like 2018, I just don't see it. So I think this may be the end. You make a great point about the defense. He was an incredible defender. Runner up for defensive player of the year in 21. I think he finished fourth for defensive player the year, the year prior. two-time first team, all-defensive team member. I just remember him guarding Luca, like, bothering, picking Luca up full court, bothering him to the point where didn't need any help.

Couldn't be overpowered. The thing about Luca, of course, is he's just so powerful, back to the basket. Like, he'll back wings down. And he couldn't do that with Ben Simmons. just incredibly physical, very versatile, obviously. And that guy was so touch and go on the defense event. And once the defense goes, I mean, everyone can make fun of the overpassing,

the unwillingness to get into the paint at all with the ball in his hands. And when he does get there, what's he going to do with it? So, yeah, I just don't know. I mean, I wrote this piece about, you know, earlier this off-season kind of highlighting guys like Simmons and Westbrook, and I think Malcolm Broggan was mentioned in that article, just unsigned players of note. And I posited that Simmons could replace Tyrese Halliburton,

kind of tongue-in-cheek, but kind of like, okay, if I'm the Indiana Pacers, I have this system and this personnel that's built around a pass-first point guard who wants to play fast, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, doesn't necessarily want to shoot but can. And at the same time, like, I don't really want to win games. Like, in my opinion, the Pacers are not going to agree with that. But, like, I have my draft pick. This is kind of a wash of a season, and whatever. So we'll just sign Ben Simmons and we'll plug him in and he can kind of be the poor man's Tyrese Halliburton and that's how we'll spend this season.

And obviously they did not go that route. And I can't think of another team where he just, he makes sense at all because he's someone who essentially needs the ball in his hands, isn't good with the ball in his hands. And I mean, the Clippers had him as the backup five more than they had as a backup point guard. So, and then he was unplayable in the postseason. So I think this is the end. I would be kind of surprised if a team took a, I mean, what is the upside? Like, what is the upside just signing Ben Simmons? I don't know what it is.

Also, always a huge red flag when you're parting ways with your agent or your agent is parting ways with you as happened a couple weeks ago when you're still a free agent trying to find a job. Not a great sign for something to happen in September or August whenever that happened. And in Russ's case, look, there's a lot that comes with Russ always. He has, you know, obviously for all the things I stipulated earlier and as great a career as he's had, since 2019, when Westbrook was traded from Oklahoma to Houston, he's been with five teams and has not lasted a full two seasons with any of them. Rockets for a year, Wizards for a year, Lakers for about a season and a half, there were a little more than that, Clippers for about season plus,

Denver for one year, and Utah waved him twice along the way as a facilitator in trades. Was called a vampire, a national television. Whose quote was that? Anonymous, of course, from the Los Angeles Lakers. Yeah. Yeah, and then there was some stuff in an ESPN.com story during the playoffs, too, right? Aaron Gordon, I believe.

Yeah, there was some stuff. He's a big presence. He's a big voice. Little cantankerous, one might say. Yeah, and can wear some people out. Also seems to be in that category of Star who, you know, is post-stardom, but can't think of himself in any other way and still carries himself like that guy. Well, it never evolves his skill set to be that type of player.

It's tough. It may be over. By the way, just attack on one more. A guy whose NBA career could be over. Yeah. The other number one pick of the Philadelphia 76ers one year after Ben Simmons, Markell Fultz still unsigned. Oh, that's a sad one.

Yeah, very sad one. Was he in Sacramento? He was in Sac. Okay. Yeah. But as of this recording, I believe, still unsigned. Your fourth and final? Fifth and final?

Wow. Where does the time go? This could have probably been my number one, to be honest. Like, this is, I think. Baring the lead again. This is why you have editors. I, I, you know, I'm gifting this to the listeners who stayed this long. This is my present to them.

So you're welcome. Will the Memphis Grizzlies offer John Morant, the contract extension? That's a spicy one. So, according to ESPN's Bobby Marks, the Grizzlies have up until a, October 21st to tack on two additional years, $61.7 million and $66.7 million, to the three years that are already left on his contract. The extension would put him in a Grizzly's uniform through the 2009-2030 season. And this is a similar extension that the Phoenix Suns gave to Devin Booker earlier this off-season,

which was two years and $145 million. which was the largest average annual contract staggaring. In NBA history. So this is, I mean, I don't think, this isn't going to happen, right? I'd be shocked. I'd be shocked, yeah. Too many injuries, too many other concerns, generally speaking. Just unreliable for a variety of reasons.

And again, another player who hasn't quite evolved. And plays a breakneck style that is only going to keep. getting him hurt. With his frame and the way he plays. And it's what's so exciting about him and what's so effective and fun about his game. But it's the thing that's going to make his, you know, probably shorten his career because of the wear and tear. So he has $126.5 million on his contract over the next three years.

And we agree that this is not going to, probably not going to happen. I'd be a little surprised. So at the same time, the Memphis Grizzlies have stood behind John Morant. They have treated him as a franchise player. They have shot down. You on stage starting rumors. They don't want to trade him. They traded Desmond Bain this offseason.

Which caused a lot of people to wonder if it was going to be like a complete teardown, right? They're like, oh, my God, is this the first step toward every, and no, nothing else happened. And one might also wonder if the trade value that John Moran has on this current contract has prohibited Memphis from dealing him to get something of value in return where it makes sense to move on from him. But what I think is really interesting about this is if I'm John Morant, you know, he's a NBA All-Star, has the shoe with Nike signature shoe that is very popular, et cetera. And he's like, you know, I'm the franchise player in Memphis.

I am the Memphis Grizzlies. I want that extension. You go, I want that extension. And they say, no. Then what happens? That's when I'm, I get intrigued by how afraid does that, what does that do to the relationship between player and franchise in a way that could lead to bad things down the road and a potential breakup? And in this league, this is why teams sometimes make these kinds of leaps, right, where you give out an extension, you're not fully comfortable with. as a franchise. But what are we supposed to do? This is a star driven league. This guy's our star.

He's incredibly popular. He's, he's, you know, yeah, there's some blemishes and there's been some concerns and some injuries. But like, yeah, you don't want to alienate him. You don't want to piss him off. But you don't want to lock up your cap for the next five, six years either on a guy that you can't rely on and that you're not sold on should be the face of your franchise. and I'm not saying that they're not sold on that. I'm saying I'm not sold on their behalf. And anybody reasonably could have those concerns if you're the GM or the owner of the Memphis Grizzlies. By the way, games played per season for the last four years, 57, 61, 9, and 50.

Not exactly a very encouraging trend line there as he moves into his, you know, whatever, mid to late 20s. Still pre-prime, by the way. Um, should have, maybe. Maybe. Technically, the age framework that we usually use, in theory, pre-prime, if 27 is when we move into prime years. I mean, you know, they had the Oklahoma City Thunder right where they want them and then Lou Dort undercut John Moran. We never know. We would have what could have happened in that first round series if he didn't get hurt.

We'll never know. That's a great question. Only a two-time All-Star, which is kind of interesting, and he's only made one all-MBA team. And as you know, when we were both at Sports Illustrated, I wrote a, you know, went to Memphis, wrote this big feature about it. And I actually reread it the other day because we moved. And so I'd see the magazine. I was like, oh, I wrote this. So reread it.

And it's just kind of, you know, I'm proud of that article, whatever. But it is not aged well at all. You think my Zion Williamson cover story for SI has aged well? We're a neck-and-neck competition right there. As those two are in neck-and-neck competition, as draft classmates who have been too often absent and have so far been disappointing. Real tough. And honestly, if I look at the Memphis Grizzlies, and I don't really know, I don't know if this even matters that much, but just like if we're labeling people as franchise players, the way that they have kind of moved heaven and earth to give Jaron Jackson Jr. that contract that's up.

season and just, I guess, who he is as a, I don't want to, you know, whatever. He's a model citizen, not in trouble ever, et cetera. Very good ascending young talent. I think he might be the franchise player, and he might be someone who it makes more sense to build around in the what pieces make sense around Jared Jackson Jr. versus what pieces make sense around John Moran. I don't know if I'm necessarily at that point, but that is a question that I think the Memphis Grizzlies

should be already potentially asking themselves. I understand it on a basketball level. I understand it on even almost like a spiritual level of like who do you trust to build around kind of thing. But John Morant's the guy who puts butts in seats and excites the fan base and drives everything, right? Jaron Jackson Jr. is a really great player to have, but he's not driving the whole thing.

So I don't know. Where are we driving to? I had a couple of thoughts there. I'm just not even going to do it. Moving on. All right, so I gave you my five. What's your four? I've got three options for you.

Wow. I have a superstar-related option. I've got a, can this guy be a number one option? and I've got a league more broad option. Which of those three would you like to hear? Number one. Can this guy be a number one?

Ah. And maybe as you suspected or intuitive. Oh, geez. I mean, it's your team. Oh, we're going there? Okay, interesting. How good will Jalen Brown be as a number one? The way I wrote it down was actually,

how good will Jalen Brown be as a number one? Not can he be a number one at the same level of Jason Tatum or anybody else you want to put on that list of established number ones, but he's going to be their number one option. How good will he be? And is it enough to keep the Celtics in the playoff hunt? And the reason I wonder about it mostly is, as we know, for years there, there was that burbling either tension or perceived tension of, you know,

are they going to keep them together, should they keep them together? And these rumblings every so often, usually granted from other teams saying Jalen Brown would like to be the number one somewhere. And we're not sure if these guys are going to stay together, not because they don't like each other or can't play together or can't show them. It was none of that. It was more like just as Kyrie at one point decided he wanted out from under LeBron's shadow, could Jalen Brown see himself in a way where that was the important thing. And now we're going to see the test case for what it looks like with Jalen Brown as a number one option. And as a better version of him, those rumblings were from three years ago. And this is a more well-rounded, matured version of him.

I'm always fascinated when you've got a team that has the luxury of two or three stars and you think, man, what could that guy do on his own? We're going to get to find out now. And it will determine where the Celtics fall. Listen, they may rather not be in the font. They may rather be playing for draft position. They will. But it's a fascinating thing to look at because, you know,

though we've already gone through the depressing exercise, depressing on behalf of Celtics fans anyway of how steep the drop-off is after the first like three, four players, maybe three. Jalen Brown, Derek White, Peyton Pritchard, and... The big three. Yeah. There's at least some good talent right there. Like, okay, they're going to be able to score, I think, and they'll be able to defend, I think.

I just don't know how good at either level, and I don't know if there's any bench at all to speak of. But I am fascinated to see Jalen Brown as a number one. So there you go. Yeah, I think Jalen Brown's really good. One of the better two-way players in the league the last few seasons. Obviously, had a tremendous finals run and was critical to that and was excellent in the finals and was someone who hit a lot of big shots on a huge stage and he has as much playoff experience as anyone really in the NBA, frankly, since he's entered it.

I think being the primary option lead ball handler, high-usage playmaker on a very good team is something that only a select few can say that they can handle. And Jalen Brown's game does not necessarily translate to that responsibility set. I think that, you know, he as someone who is, well, suddenly, from the opening tip be defended by the opposing team's best defender, the opposing team's scouting report will revolve around either taking the ball out of his hands with pressure, blitzing and pick and rolls, not worrying about what is around him necessarily. and his ability to respond to that, get off the ball, every single time that happens, not be frustrated, not for shots, which is kind of, I mean, his whole role on the team will shift every minute he's on the court. And so I don't think he's ever been someone who has been,

uh, want to make life easier for teammates. And that's not like a criticism just because he can get any shot he wants. He's so athletic. His in-between game is spectacular. But I think that the degree of difficulty on the shots is only going to go up. And he wasn't even particularly that efficient when he had Drew Holiday and Christaps Borzingis and Derek Way and Jason Tatum.

So I think that typically when all this happens and attention from the opposing team goes up, efficiency will probably go down. and the player who was amazing in, I think it was a game five against the Knicks, Celtics went at home, and he has one of the better games of his entire career. Game six, he fouls out, and it's a total disaster, and the Celtics lose in a blowout effort. I think that you're going to get not necessarily ride a roller coaster like that with him this season, but I think having the in-between of those two extremes is not a first option on a very good basketball team.

It's just not who he is. And also, I'll just say lastly, the pieces around him are not ideal. This is not a good basketball team. So, you know, I was going to say, like, the unfortunate thing, indeed the unfair thing about my question, is that it's not even going to be the right or, fair evaluation of him.

It just isn't. Porzinger and Drew Holiday are gone. In addition to Tatum being gone. If it were the exact same team, but you had whatever replacement for Tatum's salary slot and Porzinger and Drew Holiday were still there, then it's like, okay, here's Jalen Brown with the Celtics team that was a Tatum-centric team,

and now it's a Brown-centric team. We don't even have apples-to-apples comparison, right? And in fact, it's a vastly degraded roster at this point compared to where they've been. the last couple of years. So in a lot of ways, it's not a fair assessment, but it's still a fascinating exercise and an ongoing assessment for the season. So I thought that was interesting to at least toy with.

Among the options you didn't choose, Pena. Again, we don't have to get into it. I'll just list these off. Will the bucks be good enough to calm the waters around Janus? Jeez, Louise. It's going to happen. You're going to make me comment on the bucks? I'm not.

I hate mail left and right. I've already stipulated you do not have to say anything. Teams are already circling as they always do. We've already, you know, the Warriors and whoever else are all, you know, Lakers, all are basically saving cap room for 2027 in case he's available. And in case a superstar ever changes teams via free agency ever again. But, you know, everybody thought there was going to be Janus Trade Talks this summer didn't happen. Cool.

Great. These things are always day to day. If they come out of the gate, slow. If they're stumbling through November and December. December, it's going to spark it all. We know it will. So my question was, will they be good enough to calm the waters and not have that happen? Then there's the, how frustrated our fans going to get the first couple weeks of the NBA season as they're trying to find out or figure out where the hell to watch games? I'm already frustrated. This is, all right, this is, I'm going to now my 29th season covering this league and is the first time in all of that time that the league sent us an email when the schedule came out saying, here's a guide to a,

which channels or services on which days please help us publicize this. And I'm not knocking the NBA for doing that. I appreciate them doing that. And I appreciate that I now have the graphic card that I can look at any time because I don't know either. But for the record, Monday on Peacock, Tuesdays on NBC or Peacock, Wednesday's on ESPN. Friday's on Prime Video. That's Amazon Prime, by the way. Thursday also Prime Video. Oh, excuse me, Friday Prime Video, but additional weekly national games starting mid-season, Thursday, Prime Video, Saturday, ABC, or ESPN, or Prime Video, and Sunday, ABC, or ESPN, or NBC. So now that we've got that settled, I think we're all good, we're good to go, right? We've all got it down. My brain is just leaking out of my ear right now,

unfortunately. The guide to which channels the NBA will be on this coming season is now almost as long as the CBA. It's very close now. I do think there's going to be some frustration and some grumbling. Forget the cost part of it, which is significant, but just the mere trying to remember what channel I'm supposed to put on. Where can I get the highlights? That's what I want to know. You know where to find the highlights.

On House of Highlights, apparently. All right, before we go. And by the way, a programming note for those of you who are real ones listeners, we will be back with the Real Ones. I believe one week from today, Rajabelle and I will be on Logan Murdoch, taking a little time off just right until around opening night. There's a programming note. Before we wrap this one up, I do have one bonus question. And it is a question that I would expect will be asked on Media Day for this particular team or shortly thereafter.

And I am very curious about the answer to this one. Are the Oklahoma City Thunder going to visit the White House? No team visited the White House during the first Trump administration. That was the Warriors in 2017 and 18, the Raptors in 2019. Lakers in 2020, but there was COVID. But there was no NBA team visited the White House from 16 through 20. That tradition did resume during the administration that followed. I am very curious to know how the NBA.

and NBA teams will handle this now. You do not have to answer that. We do not have to speculate. And I don't think we should. I'm just curious how that's going to play out. It is a thing. People may cringe at me even voicing it today. I'm sure the Thunder are not happy with me bringing it up right now,

but it's going to come up. And we should hear that answer, I would think, before too long once teams are back in action with training camp. You know, at the risk of making a foolish prediction, I would say that maybe, I don't think there's a unified, I know that's only 15 players and coaching staff and all that. I don't think that these things are unified anymore, and so it wouldn't surprise me if a select few of players showed up and staff and some decided to hold out and not go or, I don't know. They also have to be invited, and maybe the invitation won't be extended. Has not been this president's favorite league historically. So that's as far down that rabbit hole we need to go.

You know, I gave the listeners who stuck around a gift and you give them this. Like, no one wants to hear this. I left it for the end for a reason. If anybody stuck around this long, they're just very interested in everything we have to say, including down potentially dark rabbit holes. Did we miss anything? Is there any other cool training camp story that will Reed Shepard be the backup point cut

of Houston Rockets? I mean, you know. We got plenty of time for the Reed Shepard role definition time. Like that's a midst of training camp story. We'll get back to it. All right, Pina. This has been fun. It's been great.

Thank you. Good luck with the rest. of the boxing, unboxing, wall hangings, everything else, child care along the way. Welcome to the neighborhood-ish. Thank you, sir. I'll see you at a bar on Court Street.

Thank you all for joining us. And we'll be back next week with the real ones.