The Ringer NBA Show - Kawhi's Injury, Wall's Big Shot, and Zaza's Dirtiness (Ep. 111)

Episode Date: May 15, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss John Wall's game winner (5:00), the Wizards' consistency against the Celtics (10:00), the Spurs' chances without Kawhi Leonard (20:00), the Warriors' defensive mistakes (24:00), Durant and Curry's offensive explosion (29:00), Zaza Pachulia's closeout on Kawhi (33:00), the problem with 3-point shooters trying to draw fouls (37:00), and De'Aaron Fox's star power on draft night (47:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every week is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer.com. Kevin. What up, Chris? Well, we're a day early this week. Bill Simmons is going to be doing a podcast with a reaction to tonight's game seven between the Celtics and the Wizard. So keep a look out for that tomorrow. But we do have that game seven that's going on tonight.

I was glad that given the way the weekend plays out, we obviously had two really, really good games, the Friday night game, and then the Sunday afternoon game. Let's start with Friday night and how we got to this game seven with, I mean, obviously the lasting impression is John Wall hitting that shot, jumping up on the scorers table after forcing a game seven. But your biggest takeaway from game six, which was the wizard's win that's causing tonight's game seven.

You know, Chris, it's really just the fact that John Wall has just elevated his game to the next level. That's a shot. You can't sleep on him anymore. Like before he used to be able to, you know, hope and pray John Wall would settle for jump shots. But now, now, you know, he can hit big ones. He still shoots that, you know, pull up jumper at a rate of like, you know, 28, 29% on the season. But it's a hell of a lot better than he was before.

And it's on a great, much higher volume. I think the Celtics could probably live with that shot that he took, but you can't sleep on him. He's a big baller, man. John Wall, it just took the win right out of the hands of the Celtics. Doesn't it feel like he went to a totally different level because of that? Like this is what we look for. The same way we gave James Hardin this massive demerit because the games didn't play out all that different. Wall was not good in the first half, much like Hardin.

But then in the second half, he came out guns blazing. And you could see in that post-game interview, it was interesting because they asked him about coming out in the second half. And he basically said, I wasn't going out like that. Like, I'd rather go over 100 than. Right? It felt like, all right, this is like the, we all know what he's talking about, right? And we all know the scenario, which is we just bashed James Hardin for not going out guns blazing. And it, I mean, I don't know. I feel like that's when that's when guys go from one level to the next in terms of public perception is something like what Wall did the other night. Like that's, that solidifies you. Everybody's going to have that burned in their memory forever that he's a big game guy. Dude, I knew the Celtics were going to lose that game once they all wore black. I knew they were going to lose. I thought they would get kind of blown out maybe, a 10-point loss, not a last second,

you know, kind of buzzer-beater like that. I just knew they were going to lose. I mean, they gave the Wizards that little extra ounce of motivation that they needed to really pull that out, I think. That's what they gave them. I don't see why you do that in Game 6. I understand people saying, well, you need to be confident. But yeah, but don't do what the Wizards did earlier this year.

dressing all black. Don't do that. It's a disgrace, right? It's the difference between like Mark Messier saying, we're going to go out and win and guaranteeing victory and and Benny Ogbionni doing it, right? Because, right? Like, you can't, you got to come through. If you're going to, if you're going to dress for a funeral, you better execute the funeral. And they just did not. They did not. I mean, they let the wizards come back from the dead at the end of that game. The Celtics had some really sloppy plays down the stretch. Isaiah Thomas a really sloppy turnover. And you can't point the finger at any one play, you know, towards the end of the game

because stuff happens earlier too. But it felt like the Celtics should have won that at the end. They had, I believe, a five or six point lead with just a couple minutes left. I don't have that number exactly, but they had a little bit of a cushion. And they just blew it. They blew it at the end. And I wonder how that changes, you know, going into tonight. It might have zero impact at all.

It's possible. It's a clean slate. It's a game seven. Game six is in the past. It's just a singular game. Or there could be a little bit of overlap coming from game six into game seven with the momentum, I guess, Washington had. Okay, is this just a home series deal? And I know that they are, the Boston Celtics are averaging 125 at home so far in this series, which is a huge, huge number.

And we also know that if we go back to just for tonight's game, for a reference point, we've only had another game with game seven this year. and that was the road matchup where the Jazz beat the Clippers. The result moved after the Jazz beat the Clippers, all right? Game 7s since 2007, the home team has won 23 of the 30 games. Wow. And they have covered the spread in 18 of those games. This according to ESPN Chalks preview that is today. Celtics are like a five-point favorite tonight.

but the home team so far in this series is a perfect 6-0 right straight up so we is there any reason to believe that the home team just won't hold form it was there any did you come out of friday night thinking well this is going to create a different game seven than the previous matchups we've seen when these two teams have played in boston or is this just the home team wins you know i don't know if i felt you know strongly either way chris i think i think i think this game seven is just a different game. I think game sevens are, you know, are weird and it's, I know, I know you put out the record, but I'm not sure if history really will have any, any impact on tonight in some ways. I think, you know, if you're the Celtics, what you need to

be feeling good about is your bench has generally been playing better at home than they have been on the road. Small sample size, only six games, whatever, but the guys were awful off the bench in game six for the Boston Celtics. And that's what they really need to tip the scales, because the wizard's bench isn't that good. The starting lineups are relatively even. I mean, you go down the line, position by position. It's pretty much even. But the bench is where the Celtics should have an edge.

They didn't have that edge in game six. Olinick scored four points, smart scored one. At total, they were, I believe, two for 14 off the bench, something like that. They just weren't good. And that's what they need to tip the scales in their favor heading into tonight's game. They need somebody to step up, whether it's Terry Roseer, or Kelly Olinick to have one of his good shooting nights or Marcus Smart to randomly get hot from three,

which he sometimes does. They need that tonight. Well, 125 is a massive number. I mean, that is just, I mean, that's what they're averaging in the three home playoff games this year. So here's what we know. If the Wizards give up 125, they ain't winning. They ain't scoring 126, Kevin. That's fair.

That's definitely fair. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to come down to do you get a different? different defensive Wizards team in game seven. That's it. That's it, right? Because they can't give up that kind of, they can't give out that kind of scoring output.

And Boston's just put, I mean, that is a huge number, man. A huge number. And I know one of the games went to overtime, but still, 125? Come on. It's gone 123, 123, 129, 123. Those are their three wins.

So far this year. It's big time. I'm trying to pull up their, their offensive rating, defensive rating for the series, just out of curiosity, because that would account for the overtime game, home versus away, for the Celtics. I'll have that in one moment. It just feels like the Wizards, right? In their wins, they have held the Celtics to 91 points.

They have held the Celtics to 102 points. That was a runaway game, game four, where they just ran off on them. I mean, most of the points that the Celtics scored to get to the 102 were honestly totally inconsequential. And then they held them to 89. So this is it, man, right? Either the Wizards are going to be able to hold them to under 100 or not. Pretty clear. At home.

Yeah. On the road, the Celtics have a 96.9 offensive rating against the Wizards. And at home, that number jumps up to 124.3. so pretty much the same as the raw point per game numbers. And their defense is pretty much the same as well, whether it's home or on the road. So that's a drastic difference, man. And I wonder how much of that, you know,

just does come down to the bench. The bench is scoring more points at home than they are on the road. Well, and that's really what I come down to. Those numbers that you just gave out, obviously, the 124, that would be, if we took that and we plug, that into what the regular season, the highest offensive rating during the regular season was, of course, the Warriors.

And it was 113.2. All right. So in the three games, they've been 10 points better than that. Right. And again, I get that we're talking about only three games. But their offensive rating, as you mentioned it, on the road, which would be 96.9.

That would be the lowest, and it would be at least three points below Philadelphia, who had the lowest in the season. So, They've literally been if you plug it in. If you plugged it in during the regular season, it would be the best offense or the worst offense in the entire league, depending upon where they have played the games in this series so far. Give me Washington's.

Are there splits that bad? Because that would be crazy if their split. Well, for their defense, it would be like that. I believe offensively it goes from 106 to 109 for Road versus at home. So not as much of a difference. Interesting. So they have been, you would say, a little more consistent. Yeah, there's 106.

So it's flipped. So the Celtics offensive rating would be the Wizards defensive wording, home versus away. So I just find it fascinating. Like, you know, the series has just been like that. And, you know, the whole playoffs has had a lot of blowouts for that matter. But the fact that it's been home away like that for the Celtics, I just don't see that standing true tonight, Chris. I have a feeling this will be a tight game. Really?

I just do. I think this game will be different. It's going to be different than the others. Well, and you know how many times we had talked. Let me pull this up. You remember how many times we talked about Vegas didn't make all that money by everybody being right about this? Let me see what kind of percentage. I'll just, I'll check real quick on who's getting the money on this game.

it is, yeah, it's 72% Boston so far. Yeah, 72% of the bets have come in on Boston so far, according to sports insights. So usually 72% of the people don't win, Kevin. If that's true, we will either get a, you either get a Wizards win or you get a within five-point game, which I'll take that. I hope that's right. I hope we get some kind of epic game seven between the two. Who do you like? I guess I'd take the Wizards and the five, but I don't know.

I think I got to go with the Celtics. It's the home team edge. Slight home team edge for the Celtics. And I just think their bench is due to have a big night. Someone, look, I know it's like a fallacy to say, oh, due for a big night because they have recent bad performances. But they're due for a big night. Someone is due for a big nine off the bench, whether that's Rozier, Smart has one of his random big nights, or Kelly just goes off shooting threes. And what I'm curious to see is I don't think

Brad Stevens is going to make any tweaks to the starting five because I think he values the continuity there. But I wonder if they get off to another one of their slow starts like they did earlier in the series. He's just going to pull the plug quick on a guy like Amir Johnson and go faster, more athletic with someone like Terry Roseer. Because that's who I think needs to be playing more minutes. Only 10 minutes in game six for Terry Rozier. I think he needs to play more. He's brought a lot of good energy and some good perimeter defense this series, and he can hit threes. He's someone that if I'm the Celtics, I want to see him getting between 18 to 20 minutes tonight.

Could end up being wrong about this, but heck, we were wrong about the Rockets. We've been wrong about some things along the way. But you mentioned. Yeah, Rocketson 5. Yeah, but you mentioned like, you mentioned these guys, right? You're like, you know, maybe Terry Rozier or Kelly Olinick or whoever, right? Like, to me, the guy I trust. most to come up is John Wall.

Right? Like, I mean, I don't want to count on Terry Rozier and Kelly O'Linnick and Amir Johnson and all these role guys. Like, in the end, who's the best player on the court? And to me, it's not even close. It's Wall. And if Wall is, like, again, he just came through in the game six. But if there is somebody I trust when it's one game on. the line. Like who could go big tonight?

Counting on the extra roll guys and the periphery guys, that ain't, that ain't how I'm built. I think I'd rock with the wall. Those are the X factors, though. Those are some of, you know, the X factors that who can, who don't, you know, they don't have nearly as much of an impact as John Wall or Isaiah Thomas or Al Horford. But those are the guys who can make little contributions that all add up. And instead of it being you down two at the end of a game, maybe you're up four. and that's really the difference that that all adds up over the course of a game so you know that that's i guess you know what i'm saying with that focus obviously like john wall is going to be the key for the wizards and isaiah thomas will be for the southics but you know if the wizards for example get you know a good night out of auto porter he was oh for five in game six if they get another good performance out of him which they've received this series that undoubtedly helps them significantly in terms of you know creating a greater difference against the southwicks because they're guys going to get something from John Wall. They're going to get something for Bradley Bill. That's

probably a given. But if they get something from their other guys, then the Celtics better get some too. Who do you try? I just trust Wall the most. And the other thing is, doesn't it feel like Scott Brooks is going to play seven or eight guys? Like he's just, that thing is going to be whittled down so short. If they die on the court, they die, right? Like, they're just going to, he's just going to play these guys 45 minutes. And, I'll be interested to see that, Chris. It'll be something of track for sure. Right?

Because I don't agree that it's even on the starting lineups. The Wizards have the better starting lineup. This is clearly, to me, been about the Celtics are way deeper. Like, they have more players you can trust coming off the bench. And some of these in some of these games, you just get dead. I mean, they're just dead. You had the first two games of the series, the Wizards had double-digit leads. and they just couldn't

you couldn't hold on to them because their bench is so disgusting so I think if you're Brooks you just go out and he just goes super short rotation tonight that's what I'd guess yeah I mean I think I think there's definitely

you know a strong argument for that I guess the other side of it you know someone might argue if you play a wall for 46 minutes will he be exhausted at the end of the game depending on his usage earlier so I agree that they should play more minutes but, you know, just playing devil's advocate, I think there is a fair counter argument to be made

that if you run those guys into the ground too much early, it can hurt you later. Because I'm not convinced Brad Stevens is going to cut the rotation to seven. So I think he's going to, you know, take the, take, I guess, the sustainable, you know, route with his rotations tonight. He doesn't really tweak as much. Maybe he should. You could make that argument, too. I think there's arguments either way.

But I'll be tracking that for short tonight. I'll be fascinated to see how Brooks and Stevens coach in their game seven tonight. You think the Celtics win? Yeah, and a really close one. You think it's really close. Fair enough. Like last minute it's close. I would take Washington with the five.

It sounds like you would too. Five points? Yeah, yeah. I'll take Wizards with five, but Celtics win the game. All right. Let's get to yesterday. And oh my goodness. This was shocking.

That first half of that game was as shocked as I have been in a long time by an outcome of a half. The Warriors have been sitting around waiting. We saw what the Spurs had done in the game six against Houston, just totally dismantling them, even without Kauai Leonard. You didn't know what version of Kauai Leonard you were going to get in this game. because of the ankle injury. He comes out, he's got like 26 points in 22 minutes. The kid is, he was the best player on the court in the time that he played in that game. And the spurs were getting everything they wanted, hit demoralizing shot after demoralizing

shot. They're up by 20 by halftime. And then in the second half, Kawhi Leonard twist his ankle. He has to go back to the locker room. It's an 18-0 run from the Warriors. And then the Warriors end up coming back and winning the game. even though, by the way, the Spurs got an open three to win that game at the end, right? I mean, it's an open three that they got.

They still could get good shots when they needed it most. I really don't believe that the Warriors have any chance of winning that game if Kauai Leonard stays in it. What about you? It's fair. I definitely think they would have made it close, though. I still think they were going to make that run. Put it this way. With the Warriors, Chris, even though the Spurs had that huge.

lead, 25 point lead at one point, I believe in the third quarter, it was 25. Did you feel like the Warriors were out of it? Because I don't think, I don't think many people watching that game felt like they had a tune out or put something else on TV. Because I think everybody knew no matter what happened that the Warriors were going to make the run. Maybe Kauai would have been a difference. And I agree that he probably would have been. I think they would have possibly been able to withstand the Warriors. But at the same time, Golden State, maybe they make even a little bit of an extra charge. They pressed turbo to an even. even higher level if they needed to for that fourth quarter because they, when they

click like they did in that first half, in that second half, sorry, how do you stop them? How do you stop them when they're clicking like that? Even if the Spurs are playing good defense hitting the rotation, sometimes Golden State goes on those runs where they are just slaughtering you no matter what's happening. And I felt like that in the second half. And I think the Spurs would have held on with Kauai, but we really don't know. Golden State still could have made that same type of push. All right.

Well, I would tell you that for the way, the reason I felt like that they were, that, that that would not have been close is because the first, the way that half started out, the second half, right? So they're up by 20. And so now you're just kind of bracing yourself and waiting for it, okay? And the spurs came out and after they had played the first four minutes of the second half, the spurs were still. still up by 21, right? They were up by 23 after Kauai makes a couple free throws. And then they were still up, but with 730 left in that game, they're still up by 21. So they have played four and a half minutes already in the third quarter, and they're still up 21. And it was, it just felt like a hundred percent cause and effect. I get it. The Warriors are, you know, can be

unstoppable. When they get on runs, they get on crazy runs. I just feel. like those runs don't happen, especially an 18-0 run if Kauai's there. Kauai was getting anything he wanted. The kid had 26 points in 22 minutes. Like those runs get stopped. And the problem is the way that those runs really get going is because you can't score, right? You get into these modes where you can't score and they're running off it and you've got a cross-match and it's just a disaster.

Well, they didn't have anybody. Aldridge, he couldn't get a bucket. They couldn't just throw to it. You've got to have somebody. When those runs are happening, you've got to have somebody that's able to stop the bleeding. You can just throw to them and you can get a bucket. And once Kauai went out, there was nobody on that Spurs team, clearly, that stepped up and just got a bucket and stopped it. Because you've got to be able to play half-core defense against them.

And the only way you get to play half-core defense is if you can friggin' score. And they couldn't score without him. And so I just, I don't know. I feel like that game would have gone completely different if he doesn't go out. I think, you know, you mentioned the beginning of that third quarter when it was still, you know, close right before Kauai got hurt. I think the one thing with that is the Spurs did have a couple, I don't want to say lucky shots, but they were kind of lucky where they just hit threes right at the end of the buzzer. Lamarcus Aldridge had this weird three-pointer at the top of the key where I forget who was on the ground. Maybe Jonathan Simmons was on the ground.

He just kind of flipped it to Aldridge's feet and he hit a three-pointer. That shot, you know, if you're a Golden State, your defense, you're looking at that in the second half and you're like, okay, we're forcing shots at the end of the shot clock. That's something we didn't do in the first half because our communication was so horrible because we were so sloppy on offense. We're turning the ball over. We're playing better half-court defense. This is something that maybe we can continue doing this and we can make a run. And obviously, Kauai's injury helped a lot for Golden State. but I do think even though the score remained close to open that second half,

you know, their defense was better. And eventually that did kind of work itself out where San Antonio did have more trouble scoring in the half court. Again, partially because they didn't have quite a lean on it, as you're rightfully saying. But the other side of it is I think Golden State's defense, especially their communication and their rotations were a hell of a lot better in that second half, which helped, you know, again, help them get stops and then more easy fast break transition opportunities. Yeah, but the Spurs defense also.

got destroyed by him not being out there. Right? I mean, he is one of the great defenders in all of the league. You look at Golden State scored 16 points in the first quarter, 26 in the second quarter, and then in the third quarter had 39, most of which were after he went out, and then 32 in the fourth. I mean, you can't get a more ridiculous margin. They scored 42 points in the first half, and they scored 71 in the second half. I don't.

Yeah, I mean, there's no denying Kauai being out, you know, played a major role in the difference in that game. I just think Golden State was ready to mount a comeback. Maybe they wouldn't have won the game, but I think we would have been there in the final minutes of that game. Maybe it would have taken them until two minutes left in the fourth quarter to tie the game instead of earlier. But I do think that they still would have made that run just because their defense was so much better. They were sloppy in the first half, man. It's more sloppy turnovers, no communication on defense. It's like they were working out, you know, getting the rust off their shoulders after their long break.

And that's what I come down to. I think they would have made the run. Maybe they wouldn't have won the game, though. I think they might have made a little run, but I think they would have gotten smoked in the game. That was me. That's me. I think they would have gotten beat bad if Kauai doesn't go down. But maybe I'm not respecting the warriors and what they did enough.

there's a big sentiment that if Kauai or that if that was the best shot that the Spurs had in the series, that was the best chance for them to win a game in Oracle. And so now we can just get on to thinking about it. Now the series, we know what's going to happen and it's just a matter of time and whether they win it in five games or six games. I'm not there yet, though, Kevin. I'm not. I don't think it. Now, again, we're dependent upon Kauai.

But if Kauai Leonard is playing in this series, I think that this is a long series. I do not think that the Warriors are just going to trash them. I don't. Especially given what I saw when he was playing. I don't know, man. I still think Golden State, you know, we shouldn't look too much of that first half, you know, without, you know, without at least acknowledging the possibility that their slow start was partially due to rust. I think if Kauai Leonard is healthy and hopefully he is for game two,

I think maybe the first half of that game will be a little bit more of a clearer indication of how the rest of it's going to go. Because the first half and the second half of that game was just weird. And I don't want to read too much into it going forward because obviously both teams are going to make adjustments. And if Kauai Leonard's healthy, I think Golden State clearly knocked the rust off entering game two. one of the things that I hope that the spurs do, especially and again, it's all kind of odd because of the situation they were in with losing their best player in the game. But you saw, and maybe he just won't play Powell Gasol as much, but you saw when they switched and Charks wrote about this today in his takeaways on the ringer, people can go check out his article.

It's called the article, let me get the name right. Can Greg Popovich make enough adjustments to keep the Spurs Warriors competitive? And one of the things he talked about was when Powell got switched on to Curry, it was just a debacle. And one of the things that I have seen against the Warriors in the course of the last couple of years, which nobody has had a tremendous amount of success against them. But I will say, I think especially if you've got slow plotters, you can't just allow the switches to happen. I think you've got to just blow up the screens and you've got to try to chase behind them and chase them into something. Because when the big guys, especially when it's Lee or it's Gasol and to a lesser extent, Aldridge, it's just death.

It's just death. I mean, I think you just have to try to blow through those screens and stick with them and run behind them and chase them into them trying to get to the teeth of your defense because, I mean, God bless. I mean, you saw, you remember, like, there's a famous clip from last round where Gobert gets switched on to Curry, and Gobert's as good a post defender as there is. I mean, people are, some people are going to vote him for a defensive player of the year, but it's just, it's a disaster. You can't have, you know, some seven-footer out there trying to guard Steph Curry. And so I think you got to, I don't know.

I mean, listen, Greg Popovich is a much greater basketball mind than I, but it feels to me like when people have had a lot of success against the, Warriors. If they have the big guys, it's to abandon the fact that somebody like Powell Gasol, I guess you can just do the Donovan thing like he did with Cantor and just say he's unplayable. And maybe he does that with Powell. But if you're trying to, if I'm trying to figure out what you can do, I would not allow Powell Gasol to get switched onto these guys. It's a tough choice. It's a really hard choice. I kind of agree with John. Jonathan Charks' take that he had in the article this morning on the Ringer.

One of the tough parts is, you know, the spurs are kind of dropping that big low sometimes, too. So, you know, in the video example, Charks that had on his article, Zaza-Berullia set a really high screen for Stefan Curry, and he was able just to easily pull up and take a three-pointer. That's, that feels like an automatic shot for him. And I don't know if switching or pressuring that screen makes things easier for San Antonio. They made adjustments over the course of that Houston series that helped them out. But Golden State's on a different level with the way they can beat you. And I have a hard time.

I had the same question against Houston. Against Houston, I said I have a hard time figuring out how San Antonio is going to be able to effectively defend their freaking role. And they did a masterful job at it. So I don't want to go that far saying that with Golden State. But at the same time, Golden State is on a totally different level than Houston because they can beat you in so many different ways. and they have even more dynamic players than James Harden, which is saying a lot that they have two of them.

They have Stefan Curry and Kevin Durant on the same team. That's hard to believe still. And you see when there, I mean, there were a couple of those, what was that in the, maybe it was the fourth quarter. You remember the possession where they got like five shots? It's like, all right, now you're really playing with fire. Right, where Durant missed one from the left side

and then Curry missed one from the right side, or maybe it went reverse, that and then Curry finally got another three. It was like three or four shots in the possession. And they were all Durant or Curry threes. It's like, okay. At some point, at some point one of these is dropping. But the fact that, right, you can have a possession where those guys get up three or

four threes in the possession is just, that's ridiculous, totally ridiculous. And the other thing is, you know, the same way we talk about guys coming up big. The Aldridge thing, I'd so get it with. Serrano obviously can't stand Aldridge, and though he was happy with the game six, though he was happy with the game six. I love Shay's hate for Aldridge. I love it. I just wanted to say that.

Well, the game six performance was amazing. There's no way around that, right? But then you see yesterday, do you need him so bad? It's finally the time. Like, there's never a time you've got to step up more. You've got to be the guy now. Kauai's down. We've lost him if you're the Spurs.

and you got to be the guy and he came up small man like you got to get a bucket in there we've got to be able to throw it to you and you make a shot to stop the bleeding because he is so clearly in that on the floor the most talented guy for the spurs and he's taking like you know he's got six three guys guard he can have curry guarding him and somehow the guy takes a damn fade away. It's maddening. Totally maddening. You know, that's the tough part about the post-up in today's NBA. I mean, that's the difficulty. You know, there were situations where he had Kevin Durant posted up on the low block, and he got a fairly good look, but a fairly good look, you know, from a post-up still isn't a super efficient play compared to other play types. And that's why, you know,

you see so many teams moving away from that, because they know the numbers. They see what the average point per possession is for a post-up. And I, I recall something Portland Trailwearser's general manager, Neil O'Shea, Shea, said on some NBA.com show. I forget the name of the show. I think GM open court, something like that. And he mentioned, you know, with their decision with Aldridge, why they felt good about, you know, letting him. They felt good about, you know, sustaining success even after he left. He mentioned something along the lines of how Aldridge, on average, scored one point per possession on post-dubs.

But they were getting the same level of production from other guys on. whether it was shots or drives to the rim. So they felt good about being able to maintain their elite scoring offense, despite losing arguably their best player at the time. And I think that kind of touches on the same issue with San Antonio, is Aldridge, as good as he is at times, not very often, Che Serrano would say. Even when he's on fire from the post,

it's still not over the long haul, a super efficient play. And I think we saw that in the second half, with Durant getting posted up below, Draymond Green forcing turnaround, Chuck Nuppers, it's a hard place to score. Every shot's contested, and it's hard to make them. So if you're okay with that, if you're Golden State, if they're feeding Aldridge,

and that's why they need Kawhi Leonard like hell. All right, Kevin, we've got to get into the Zaza on Pichulia, Kewai Leonard play, but first a word from our sponsor today, Dollar Shave Club. They are the smarter choice. You can get a great shave at a great price, conveniently delivered at your door. When I use my Dollar Save Club,

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After your first month, replacement cartridges automatically ship at their regular price. There's no hidden fees, no commitments, cancel any time you like. You can only get this offer exclusively at Dollar Shaveclub.com slash NBA show. That's Dollar Shaveclub.com slash NBA show. The major topic of yesterday's game outside of the outcome of the game was the Leonard injury. And I know he defended Zaza Pachulia in some way after the game by saying I do not believe that it was intentional. But there were some. I saw Sam Mitchell on NBA TV and there were some others that opined.

They thought that Zaza. play was dirty. What about you? I don't think so. I don't. So Zaza has done dirty things in the past, but I don't think this was dirty, Chris. It looked like a sloppy closeout to me. And you just look at Zaza's reaction on the play. He's like flabbergasted. He got called for the file. He turns to the ref. He looks shocked. Just swinging his arms in the air while skipping away. I don't even know if he knew what happened. And with that said, you know, it's impossible for us to know what was going on through his minds. There certainly could have been intent. He might have tried to make it look like an accident when he took that little extra slide to get under Kauai. But it's so impossible for us to

say. But I don't believe it was dirty and I hope it wasn't dirty, but it's really hard to say either way, whether it was or not. I thought it was interesting that Cuban really stood out for him. Do you see that on Twitter? Mark Cuban said that's not the way he plays. And so, I don't know. He's done dirty things in the past, though. I get it, but to me, this is one of those. He might have done dirty things in the past, but this did not feel intentional. It's such a bang, bang play. Typically, right, if you see something happen intentionally like a guy throwing an elbow

or a guy chucking a guy into the crowd or whatever, a guy leveling somebody with a hard screen, you can decide whether or not, but this is, it was all happening so fast. The idea that a guy's like, I get maybe he's going to crowd him a little more, but I don't think it was intent to injure. Right. Like, I mean, it feels like it. I'm with you. Right. I think if I'm going to accuse a guy of intentionally injuring somebody, I think it would have to be something that could be more premeditated than that.

That was just, that was such a fast play. and it's all happening within the motion where it doesn't feel like you would have time to think, hey, I'm going to stick my leg out so this guy falls down on my, you know, so the guy steps on my foot. I don't know. I'd actually, I'd side with the whole, was not, yeah, he might be a goon, but I don't think he was trying to hurt Kauai Leonard on the play. What's your take on this?

So I believe it was Rob Mahoney from Sports Illustrated, wrote an article. today about how Zaza put, if it wasn't Rob Mahoney, forgive me, it was someone from Sports Illustrated, I forget who, but they wrote an article about Zaza Petulia, the action that he made on the court, whether or not it was intentional was irrelevant. What it touches on is that the rule should be changed and it should protect shooters by disallowing those type of closeouts. It should call that a flagrant one if it happens, even if it's accidental. The way I read the article was that he's saying in other words it's like a helmet to helmet hit in the NFL even if it's not on purpose even if you're not you know aren't going in with a hit with intent it's still a foul

because they want to train players not to hit high aiming at the head whereas so with this with basketball in other words the author was saying shoot when your defenders closing out he can't go that close because it's it risks you know a player tearing tearing you know something in their leg or twisting their ankle or it's simply what happened last night. What do you think about that, Chris? Do you think the rule should be changed or do you just think this is just a fluke incident, you know, and it's going to happen, just let it go? All right, the latter.

It feels like a massive overreaction to a great player getting hurt. And we see it all the time. We see it all the time. This is, it feels like the article, when Paul George breaks his leg in the Olympics, it feels like the article the next day, these guys should never play for the, in the Olympics. Right? They're right, like, why are we doing?

Why are we doing this? Right? These guys shouldn't be playing in the Olympics because a guy gets hurt. It sucks. It sucks. It sucks. Ben Oliver wrote that.

Yeah, I mean, no offense. I mean, I just don't think that. And the other thing is this. I think it would be way too hard. You've been playing basketball this way forever. And okay, fine. So you have some of these situations where it's super unfortunate. I would say, number one,

his ankle was gimpy already. He had just twisted it, what, three minutes before? It was already, that was not a stable situation for Kauai Leonard. And so it stands to reason

that maybe that ankle doesn't turn if he's not already banged up in the first place, right? So that would be number one. Number two, how many guys are, you know, and I know my man Tim Bontent, and the Washington Post wrote about this,

about the whole leaning into guys getting a three. It feels like the shooters are the bigger problem on these three-point plays in large part, where they're kicking out their legs, they're jumping into people after they get them in the air. That would just be way, way, way too hard to legislate. These reps have a hard enough time already. But when you got shooters that are intentionally trying to draw three-point three free throws on these shots and are kicking out their leg and whatever, now we're going to really take a hard line on defenders attempting to close out on them. Like, no, man, no, no.

I don't see it. See, with shooters, Chris, I mean, so that's another part. Like, that's the other side of it. And so you see sometimes players are called for files for kicking their legs out on three-pointers. Some players do that. Some players do sway forward, especially, you know, from the three-point line. I think you look at a lot of shooters across the league, and that's what happens. not straight up and down. That's the way you used to shoot in the 1950s. Players today,

you know, players the last 20 years for that manner, a lot of them sway forward. And I think it's very difficult oftentimes to know who's doing it purposely to try to draw a file. And then who just naturally does that. I think really with that, what you just need to look at is what's his form look like on an open jumper. And if it's a guy who does sway his feet forward, then that's who he is. If it's somebody who is clearly, you know, trying to draw a file, then maybe those are the situations you call a file. But I can't blame a shooter for swaying forward because that's often the mechanic that enables them to be, you know, so productive from the three point line anyway. But you have seen guys now go way out of their way.

Yeah, totally. Especially now, like with the referees calling tons of fouls on three-pointers, they're doing everything in their power to do it. So that's totally fair. Right. when you have a massive percentage of perimeter players attempting to get fouled while shooting threes and going for attempting to cause contact, right? I mean, that's happening all the time. People can go read it.

It's in fact, Bon Temps did this huge deep dive at it. It's at the Washington Post website. The spike in fouls on three-pointers, clever manipulation of NBA rules or a stain on the game. And he did this big, and he's got all the. analytics about the increase and how much this is taken this has taken hold in the NBA. And so now when we're talking about, you know, a guy twisting his ankle yesterday and that closeouts to me, that's, I hate that the guy got hurt, but I don't think it, I don't, I don't think that now the reaction needs to be, we need to change the rule because a guy got

hurt. It just sucks. It happens. You know what I mean? I'm with you. And if you, and if you trained defenders, are you four? forced defenders to close out, you know, short, that changes the whole game in many ways. And I don't think the ripple effects of that would necessarily be a good thing. And, you know, one of the things

last night that I thought of is Zaza-Pachulia's close-out, you know, was sloppy. I think we can all agree it was sloppy. But last week or earlier in the Wizard Celtics series, there was an instant where Al Horford just did a perfect close-out against Markeith Morris and Morris landed on on him. And it was a perfect closeout by El Horford. He is someone who I think, you know, if you look at, you know, just that simple act of a closeout, Horford's one of the best of the NBA at it. He's had multiple block shots in the final minutes of games this season to essentially clinch wins for the Celtics, which ultimately adds up and gives them the number one seed because of his ability to close out perfectly. Sometimes it doesn't, sometimes a guy lands on you,

but it's so rare that I just don't see it as a pressing issue. I understand why part of the conversation and I'm glad that it is. But I think the ripple effects of a change to that rule would be a negative for the league. All right. That one's interesting because Morris obviously thought that was dirty. Remember I was talking shit to him before the game? Like, it's weird because Kauai didn't think that Petulia did it intentionally. I think Morris thinks that Orpard did that to him intentionally.

And remember Morris was like chucking people out of bounds at the beginning of the next game and it was all pissed off. Like he was, yeah, you wouldn't happy about that thing. Unless that was his brother. I had to throw back to that. Don't do this. Did you read the Avril Levine thing last night, by the way? Yeah, I did. I saw that actually on Twitter this morning on the Twitter, you know, news thing.

Okay, by the way. I always enjoy flipping through those. Boy, hey, listen, whoever did that, that was just way over the top compared to the Morris thing. Like the Morse thing we all just kind of got, we got a good laugh. That Avrilavit thing, I read it before I went to bed last night and I was like, what the hell? I was like, this is the most well-written conspiracy theory I've ever read of my life. It's like with Paul McCartney.

This has been going on for decades. People saying celebrities are dead and they're being replaced or whatever else. There's people out there who thinks the Paul McCartney going on tour later this year isn't the Paul McCartney. that was with the Beatles. I think that's great. I love it. I wonder if we'll have that with another NBA player in the future,

like a high profile player, which Marky from Marcus moves on your eye. Hey, listen, I'm going to need to see an interview with Avril Levine and Melissa side by side. I need that to happen. We're going way off scripted here, but the one tweet that they showed

with the handwriting, her handwriting looked the same to me. Like, the way she writes her M's, look totally the same to me and it was kind of a unique way to write an M. I'm not going to be the same person. Hey, plastic surgery does wonders, man. That's fine, but I'm not going to be convinced until I see an interview with Averillivine and Melissa sitting next to each other.

But even if they're sitting next to each other, it doesn't mean that they didn't change. It still could have been Melissa all these years. No, it means that she's not dead. Okay. But they still could have changed places and the real Averalveen could. be living somewhere like in some random country under a different name. She might not be dead, but she could have a new life. Totally fell down the wormhole on that one last night.

But I had to mention it after you brought up the Morris brothers because that was kind of fun and we all kind of did it tongue and cheek and hey, they've got the same tattoos. And then I read the Avrilavillevian thing last night. I was like, this makes the Morris brothers thing look like child's play. Like this is amazing. on Morris, I have to point out, there was a comment on Roger Sherman's article that pointed out that the difference between Markief Morris can be found pretty easily. Look at their ears. And it's true.

If you look at their ears, Markeith Morris has more definition on his ear compared to Marcus Morris. So like, I pulled up the pictures on Getty just to make sure because you never know. And it's true. Markeith Morris has like more defined earlobes compared to Marcus. And that's how you tell the difference. Not their faces, not their bodies. It's their ears. So shout out to, I forget who it was,

whoever commented on Roger Sherman's article pointing that out. Thank you because that was a good tip. It's good to know. That is hysterical. All right. Last thing, I guess where I am, I think there's going to be a huge wall game. It goes down to the wire tonight. I just trust him so much, especially in a big spot.

So I think you get a massive John Wall game and the Wizards have a chance to win it tonight. And I do think we get a close game too. I'm not ready to say that the Wizards are going to win the game, but I do think that this could be, I'm hoping that this is much more epic than some of the others that we have seen in the series. And then I think we agree on that. And then I think if Kauai Leonard is healthy, that the Spurs can at least take Golden State to six games. I think they can win multiple games in the series. And I don't think you feel that way.

I'm still going, Warriors in Four. I know. Damn, a sweep. Warriors and Four. Wow. All right. I just, I can't go against them. I just can't, especially because we don't know how healthy Kauai is going to be.

I mean, if he's 100%, I'll give you a game. But if he's 75, 80%, after that second ankle turn, I don't know. I want, I hope you're right, Chris. I want you to be right. I want an epic series. I want it so bad. I want Cleveland and Golden State to get pushed. I don't want to wait until the finals for that.

I just don't feel like I can go that far. Also want to give everybody a heads up. Kevin's NBA draft guide came out today. You can go to NBA draft. Dot the ringer.com. And the draft guide is there by our own Kevin O'Connor. going to be doing a podcast later this week

after the lottery comes out with Jonathan Charks because that will determine who we think goes where. But anybody can go check this out. They've got comps, best case scenarios, and then full scouting reports on all the players.

You care about shot, charts, everything. The draft got looks unbelievable. So congrats on that. Thanks, Chris. And shout out to everybody at the ring. I like, that was such a major team effort you know, from the interns to, you know, Juliet Lippman, who really, you know, just was, she was our Stephen Curry with this project and really just making it all happen. And really everybody at the

ringer, you know, did an amazing job, you know, pitching in and making this a reality. And, you know, we're really happy with it, and we hope it's something that you enjoy. And we're going to be updating the rankings throughout. So if there are certain guys you don't see on there now, they will be added at some point in the near future. So we're happy about it and hope you like it. I'm going to tell you this. The one that you, you're going to have to switch before it comes up is, and I tweeted about it over the weekend, is Deerrin Fox. I'm telling you, Kevin, when that kid gets in front of prospective general managers, owners, coaches, et cetera, he is going to get taken higher than people are projecting him.

Because I saw him this weekend. I watched the Combine on NBA TV or on ESPN2. I just kind of had it on. He did the, he did like a set interview with like Jay Williams and Reese Davis or whatever. This kid, I was as impressed with Deeran Fox as I've been with any kid in a long time. That kid has got massive star power. And I'm telling you, if he gets in front of decision makers, they are going to absolutely fall in love with him. And he's an awesome player, too, who came up with a monstrous game in the tournament against one of his peers, which he has pitted against in the NBA draft. But I was, I didn't know much about Deeran Fox, but I'm telling you, this kid was, God, man, I loved him. absolutely loved him off the court, I mean. And I already loved him on the court. He's remarkable, Chris. He's a

remarkable kid. I mean, you know, I was at the combine last week and everybody, you know, I spoke to just, you know, just loves him. They love him as a person. And I think that's something that can help teams out, you know, if they're making a decision where they're even on two guys. I mean, I don't know, whoever it is, like if it's Lonzo Ball versus De Aaron Fox, if you're a team who considers those guys as even, maybe you lean towards Fox because his intangibles are just off the charts, off the court. Maybe you feel like all he needs to do is develop his jumper and he can become one of the best point cards in the league. And if you did say that, I would not disagree with you. I really want it, you know, at the point card position. And personality, personality matters so much, Chris, you know, when it comes to decision making the NBA. And I think you really hit the nail on the head with Fox.

He's a special kid. And if that helps him on the court, then someone he's going to get a potential steal in the five to ten range. Or he could end up slipping into the top three, top four. We'll see. Go check it out. NBA draft. The ringer.com. Kevin, I'll catch up with you later.

Thanks, buddy. Amen. Have a good night. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you. Keep a look out for that next podcast.

Bill's going to be doing a podcast about this game seven. Kevin's going to be doing a draft podcast, and I'll be with you later in the week. Thanks to Dollar Shave Club for bringing you to the Ringer NBA show today. For a great shave at a great price, join Dollar Shave Club. New members get their first month with. the executive razor in a tube of Dr. Carver's shave butter for only five bucks with free shipping. After that, razors are just a few bucks a month. That's a $15 value for only $5

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