The Ringer NBA Show - Kawhi's Monster Game 6 & Are Young Players Taking Over? | The Answer

Episode Date: June 5, 2021

Seerat is joined by The Ringer's Rob Mahoney to recap Kawhi Leonard's incredible performance in the Clippers' win over the Mavs, and they look ahead to Game 7 (1:24). Then Chris and Seerat discuss the youth movement that has been prevalent in these playoffs, and they briefly preview some second-round matchups (29:30). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Guest: Rob Mahoney Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What If the Len Bias story hosted by Jordan Ritter-Kahn is the ringer's latest narrative podcast. Episodes 1 and 2 launch on June 9th, and you can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Lynn Bias, 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network,

this is What If, the Lynn Bias story. I'm Jordan Ritter-Con. Oh, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I am Chris Ryan. I am joined, as always, by Siritt. What's up, Searot? As always, how lovely that is to hear.

Well, sometimes I'm not here. You're always here, though. What we're going to do today is pretty straightforward. Siritt and Rob Mahoney are going to talk about the Clippers Mavericks game, which I do not know the result of because it hasn't happened yet, neither to Sir it. But they're going to do a little bit of a chat about that game. And then Syrit and I are going to come back and we're going to talk to you about the young players taking over this postseason. All right, guys, we're talking to you after a historic Kauai Leonard game,

45 points, six rebounds, three assists, two steals, 18 for 25, five three-pointers, a bunch of daggers at the end. That feels like the place to start with me. Obviously, the Clippers, one. We're going to have a game seven on Sunday at the Staples Center. First game seven. First game seven in Luca Donchage's career. I think that's going to be pretty interesting. But let's start with Kauai. Rob, what is the number one rule of feature writing? Oh, I don't know. Are there rules? Oh, that's why you write the way you do. Show, don't tell. Oh, that rule. Yeah. Show don't tell. Look. But didn't you just tell his whole stat line?

I guess I did. I guess I did. Well, if you pull this up, you know, if we put this up on video, perhaps you and I could. Well, I actually is like a kind of robotic game. Like, it actually probably wouldn't be that hard to imitate, you know, without the basketball on the defenders and the need to, you know, be accurate. All the context, you know. All the tough stuff, all the basketball parts of it.

Yeah, Rob, what did you, what did you think of this game? I mean, I think the Mavs are really going to kick themselves over. for this one because they made it manageable enough to win, which is kind of all their defense especially needs to do. And then in the end, it's just Kauai throwing Haymaker after Haymaker after Haymaker basically defeating

everything that you fought so hard for to keep this game close. And in the end, we've seen previous games, Luca Donchich have incredible fourth quarters, great shot making from him over long stretches. This one, it tilted toward Kauai. And that's the way it goes when you have a dude who honestly can get to his spots whenever he wants.

It's just a matter of, is he going to make those shots? Can you get like kind of a hand in his face? But he's too strong. He's too good. He's going to have games like this. Have you seen him play like this since he's been a clipper? I thought this was probably his most focused game as a clipper. And some of that had to do with the way the first half went to, which there's kind of this weird balance with the clippers right now between trying to work around this Mav zone and make the right basketball plays, which sometimes mean like working the ball to Marcus Morris, who's going to dribble to the free throw.

line and just kind of stop and try to make reads. And the offense gets a little stagnant, a little weird, maybe a little overly patient sometimes. And if you're Kauai and Paul George, you also need to pick spots where you're just going to push and you're going to be more assertive and you're going to look for your stuff. And I thought this was the game where Kauai walked that line most effectively. I thought his passing was really good in the half court, especially in the first half, especially when he's stationary, you know, like he can read a defense from those contexts. And then when they needed him to hit shots, he was right there to deliver pretty much every time.

Yeah, that's such a good point about the rest of the guys not really knowing exactly what to do all the time with the clippers. And I think that's exactly why you need those guys to do what they did today, especially Kauai. Like this performance, getting a chance to cover him and be around him day to day in Toronto. One of the most interesting parts of it was just the fact that like he just brought this level of calm to everything, you know, whether it was off the court or obviously on the court. I mean, we know what that team looked like in the playoffs. they really figured some stuff out when Kauai was on the floor. But he really, like, he gave them the confidence of knowing that they had the best player. And that's what tonight felt like.

Like, he was just forcing himself into certain locations. He was really using his strength in an economical way that, like, we're really, we've become accustomed to seeing from Kauai, but for some reason hadn't been seeing in this series. Like, this was vintage. This is like, this is why he's been a finals. MVP. He's not as athletic anymore as he was with the Spurs. But this is, you know, this is why he was able to basically do everything he's done to his franchise to get in order for them to procure his talents.

Like, this is him paying that off and saying like, yeah, I am him. Like, I'm going to make these crazy shots over Luca Donchich. I'm going to save our season. I think it started like pretty much in the first quarter. Like he was really aggressive. And man, you got to give the Clippers credit. They weren't hitting shots. Things were looking really bad for them early. The Mavericks started missing, but there was a point where it kind of felt like they were ready to explode. And it never really came, which is good for the Clippers, because they were able to hold

on. But like, man, like you just, he's getting in there for rebounds. He's playing. What did you think of the, what did you think of the defense on Luca? Well, first let's circle back to Kauai for a second. I have a question for you in that, you know, The calm you describe that he can give an organization, which is such a, like, to his team on the floor specifically, is such a huge part of his appeal as a player.

I would not say the clippers, generally speaking, have a calm energy about them. This is kind of a constantly frazzled team. They have kind of like that mindset where you're walking around in the world all day and you're not sure if you left the oven on at your house. It's like there's something going on in the back of their mind at all times. It's gnawing at them. Just like general. But do you think the calm that Kauai gave them in this game is translatable?

Like, do you think that is a thing that we're going to be talking about for the rest of their playoff run? Like, this is a potential turning point for that. You know, I think, I think if anything, first of all, they got to win game seven. Kind of important. Yeah. No, just like, if we're talking about the whole playoff run, I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves here because I think, like, ultimately, you know, whatever team shoots a lights out,

kind of tends to win this game. You know, Zach Kram wrote a great article at Theringer.com, just the first time I said that sentence. About how home court advantage hasn't really mattered. And I think three-point shooting is a big part of that. Like, teams have just never felt streakier. And this is kind of what the series has been. So to me, it really comes down to that.

But to your question, like, I think it starts with Kauai. I think if he continues to have, he's not going to have these, like, crazy 45-point performances, all the time, but he has them in his bag, and that's important. I think as long as he comes out and he reminds, like, there's something to the reminder of just like having a couple of those moments every game, just so the guys around can look and remember, be like, oh, yeah, we got that guy. He can do that thing.

I think that helps. And he just needs to keep doing that. Like, I don't think, I think that was kind of the mistake they made earlier on this series. Like, I felt like they thought that they could just walk through it. Like, there weren't a lot of adjustments, a lot of really late adjustments by Tai Liu, which have ended up being the right ones. Obviously, number one thing that we have to talk about

is the 10 minutes that Luke Kinnard played. He scored half their bench points. That's true. That's true. But yeah, Reggie Jackson has brought them a lot of energy. It also just made shots. Like a lot of that is just like he just made shots, which is big for them.

They really need that. Rondo had a classic Rondo game. 1.6.6. How do we convey an eye? I roll on this podcast. Okay, no, so putting Morris in a starting lineup and then just making sure that Zubak never plays with Luka was pretty huge. I think this Clippers team is now at a place where they have made the right adjustments. And game seven is probably just going to come down to to make a wrestling league.

So we'll see what happens. Yeah, I mean, this game, you know, Paul George had kind of a weird game. And Paul George has those sometimes where he makes some really boneheaded mistakes, but also is, you know, Clearly one of the most talented players on the floor can do things that no one else can. And I think he was kind of bailed out a little bit in this game by Reggie Jackson having a super hot first quarter. Because when one Clippers player can go off like that or even have like a 20 point game in total, doesn't have to be all contained in the first quarter as Jackson's basically was. It lets you get away with Paul George being a little more, a little more come and go,

a little more sinusoidal in his performance. He doesn't have to be as steady. Sinisoidal. Yeah, that's the free one for you. Versus, you know, Kauai is more like more metronomic, maybe, if we're kind of comparing here. So to get that kind of consistency from even one other rotation player, one other rotation player as more of a steady scoring presence who can hit some damn shots, that gives George a lot of leeway in a way that he hasn't had in every game in this series

because the role players haven't always been there. But Jackson is hitting. He certainly wants to take those shots and credit to him. He's giving them something they really need offensively right now. Yeah. Paul George had a interesting game. I think he came out really aggressive. He tried to attack Luca in the zone a couple times,

and the first time he just kind of crashed into him. He wanted a foul, didn't get it. It didn't really look like a foul to me. Second time, same thing happens. Not a foul this time, but I think, what was it, a turnover or a miss shot, but, you know, not a positive result. And then they start kind of, they start working the zone a little bit better. they moved Paul to wherever there's two people

and then Luca is kind of in a tough spot. He was aggressive and I think they did a good job of finding places that he could be aggressive. He didn't hit a lot of shots. He passed a ball straight into Lucas hands once. We kind of got the full Paul George experience, but I like the playmaking and I like the aggressiveness. And I think if that can continue,

I mean that this is, This is what the clippers should look like, right? Like maximize the guys that can do a little bit of what you lack. Like I think that's the logic behind getting Carnard in there too. And, you know, like, you should, they're probably the more talented team. Like, do you think there's anything more that they can do to get Paul George going or just get him to have a consistent game? I mean, they've been fighting that battle in different stages all year.

A lot of it came down to having the ball in his hands a lot where he could be more of a distributor, more of a facilitator, more of a point for them. That wasn't really working in this series in the same way for a variety of reasons which we can get into if you want. But I don't know that there's an easy way to access his game and they dial it up. Let me funnel a bunch of shots, this guy's way, kind of function.

I mean, I think when you have Paul George as your point guard in the regular season, that can work pretty well. Most teams are not prepared for that. Most teams don't have the wing personnel to deal with that, to deal with a facilitator like him, creating from the top of the floor, doing a lot of passing. It's a trickier thing to handle versus in the playoffs, and especially when you're going against a Rick Carlisle team,

and especially when you're going against a zone, which George isn't going to be displacing defenders in the same way. He's just not like a visionary passer. He's a good one who's athletic and a good shooter, and so people bend to him and he can take advantage of that. But if you're not overreacting to him, He's not going to beat you with great assists, you know? Yeah, that's kind of the issue with this team.

Like, it's a bunch of guys that are good secondary creators or secondary playmakers, but they need the primary. Like, there's guys on this team that can make reeds. Luke Canard, for example, can make reads. No, but really, like, I think there's a lot of guys on this team that would be more effective. I'm not trawling when I ask you this, I promise. God.

I already know you. I know you hate this question. Yeah. What do you think about? about Rondo playing more minutes with the starters. Like not increasing his minutes per se, but just staggering them so that he's on the floor more with Paul and Kauai. I mean, if they had started Rondo and Reggie Jackson's place,

this series would be over right now. I mean, we just talked about how important Rurgy Jackson scoring was. But also, I mean, on the Rondo point, respect Rondo. I would rather not. But on the Rondo point, I mean, Rick Carlisle certainly did not. At one point, he had Willie Korni, Ali Stein guarding Rondo in this game,

just daring him, please, do anything. And I would venture to say no coach in the league is more familiar with Rajan Rondo's limitations than Rick Carlisle's. Also, his strengths. He was saying that Rondo was pointing out all of the plays in games one and two didn't really matter that much.

He was very polite. Yeah, it was. It was actually, it was a very dignified answer from Carlisle because it revealed something about Rondo that was nice, but that we already know. So it wasn't like he was giving Rondo any props. He was just like, yeah, this guy knows all the plays. We know that about Rondo.

You're genius. The Bobon minutes. What are your thoughts? Good. Like, well, let's get into the good, the bad and the ugly of this. Like, there were a lot of, we got the full gamut, I thought, today. I thought they came closer to breaking even in this game a little bit versus in game five. I thought they were a pretty big swing.

Just in terms of shifting the matchups and the tactics of the series. is putting him in there. This one, the Clippers, obviously, were more prepared for it, more ready for that. I think, to the Mavs credit, what they've done is they've solved kind of the fundamental Bobon problem, which is when you put him in a game, everything becomes about Bobon. Like, on your offense, you want to feed him as much as you can to take advantage of his height. And on defense, the other team is usually going to target him all the time to try to get him

out of the game. That's generally how his minutes work. But when you play this kind of zone, it makes it harder to target him, makes it more sustainable for the Mavs. And I think just as importantly, turns some of your other lesser defenders into pretty adequate ones. Like if you, Luca Dansuch is not a great on-ball man defender, but if you put him at the bottom of a zone where he can use his length and he doesn't have to run around a lot and he can save his energy for offense, he can be a good defensive rebounder and a good challenger on shots. He can do stuff for you. And so the Boban minutes to me are as much about getting stuff like

that out of it as they are, you know, him getting putbacks over Nicholas Batum or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like, I think they did look better. Yeah, that's really interesting. A Bobon game does kind of become about Bobon. And, you know, as it should, as it should. Anytime Boban is involved, he should be the star of the moment. He's the main character.

He's the main character. But yeah, no, so I was surprised that they looked better today. That first quarter, first of all, the MavZone just looked better today than it didn't game five. That makes sense. But just a much better, more active game from Prisigas, even though they didn't get a lot from him offensively. I think he just didn't make himself a liability on defense and was just really using his length on help side and stuff. And I think they actually might have found something with that because he was getting exploited. Now they can play Bobon.

The Bobon playmaking experiment was fun trying to turn him into a playmaking five. You know, he could be a smart guy, but maybe leaning on him a little bit too much. Then when they switched it and it was KP out in the perimeter, I think it just looked way better. Because then you just, you get like a seven-foot shooting target and a seven-foot paint target for Luca. And it just makes everything so much harder. It is interesting that Carlisle's kind of paired them together specifically. like Porzingus and Bobon always play together for Bobon's minutes. And then he's been coming in with Maxi Kleba and Dwight Powell together

as kind of basically a wholesale front court pairing change when those guys come in. I don't really get the Powell Kleba appeal, like what those guys are doing for each other as much. But Boban and Chrisaps work. Like that, it's just so overwhelming that kind of length in certain situations. And especially if your team doesn't have a like knockout dedicated rim protector who's actually really good at that job. The best thing you can do is just put a bunch of length on the floor and kind of fake it. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

But I also, I think that sort of element of it is probably why I think the clippers should be able to figure it out. Like a couple, like, harder drives and just figuring out the angles. And they actually did. You know, PG didn't finish some shots that he normally finishes. It was like a pretty, the officiating, I think, I mean, game seven's not going to be any, any tighter, but the officiating was loose, which is, which is fine. But I think that contributed to helping the zone out a little bit. I'm really curious to see how it's going to continue to look.

It's just like, it's, it's always, it's always interesting to see a coach go all in on a lineup like that, just to kind of try to mess with the other team. And like, I feel like they're winning it. I feel like they're winning it. Like the more, like, you know, it's to offset the Morris thing, I just, I just feel like, sometimes I, it's all about how they use it. Like, sometimes it's like, we do really need to set up Bobon. You know, he's kind of, it's two for nine.

I don't know. But I don't know. I'm just, I'm super curious to see how that works in a game seven. I just think it's really interesting. But yeah, and the other thing, the other thing, like, I feel like there was, there were some interesting tactics used today. Like, you got the Willie Colley Stein thing, which we should have gotten more of that. We should have gotten more of that.

We only got a few possessions. And I think all we really got in terms of action was like a missed Rondo layup, right? Well, I mean, so if the Clippers were to start Rondo, you would have to start Willie Colley-Stine to counter him, right? Yeah, I think it's a natural matchup. Yeah. Wingspan to wingspan. The Clippers didn't let Luca shoot threes late and fourth. He helped them out a little bit, too.

there was a point in this game where it seemed like Luca kind of went a little too hard depending on either trying to bait fouls which is part of his game. Sometimes that's going to be there. Sometimes it's not going to work out as well. And then just kind of like the Luca magic hyper difficult turnaround shots. Yeah. Which as the game went on just kind of got worse and worse. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't want to speculate too much about his injury,

but just with any injury in general, prolonged use deeper into a game, especially for a guy who's handling and doing as much as he is, you just start to feel it more. You start to feel the nag and the limitation of your injury more. I wouldn't be surprised if some of that neck shoulder injury that he's dealing with started to pull on him a little bit more deep into this game, just like it seemed to do with the last one. We can argue about the causalities of all that,

but I think the reality is he just was not there offensively in a way that basically if he's not creating at a super high level, the mads are going to lose those quarters. And if they lose enough of those stretches and quarters, they lose these games pretty much by default. Yeah, I really feel like they could use a secondary playmaker this offseason. That's kind of

what I feel like we've... I mean, I guess we've known it, but I think we've really learned that about them this season. Even though, you know, they tried to move the ball around, and I actually think they were reasonably prepared for what the clippers were going to do. They honestly just didn't hit a lot of shots.

And that's kind of why I picked... I picked the Mabs in seven yesterday, just because I thought that it would be difficult for them to avoid two crazy Luca nights in a row or two crazy Dallas Maverick shooting nights in a row. Now it's just one. Now it's just one. So game seven. Well, first actually, let me ask you this.

Do you have anything else on this? No, no, we can go to game seven. You sure? You don't have like an amazing nugget? Have I had any amazing nuggets? Rob, you're full of amazing nuggets. Wow, thank you. Yeah, you're like a McDonald's happy meal.

I'm a Luke Canard over here, just giving you 10 good minutes in one basket, you know? So, game seven. Yeah. Do you think Kauai can be the best player on the floor again? Yeah, Kauai can be the best player on the floor in any game he plays in at any time. He's been getting a lot of weird flack since game five

in a way I didn't quite understand. he's one of the best players in the world. Like, he can dial in defensively, pretty much in any game and take it over. He can be the best offensive player on the floor in any game. I don't really get what's not to like other than the fact that Luca has had another worldly series.

Yeah, I mean, I think some of that was just not seeing him do it. Like, I like that he was on, you know, they're switching less. They're still hedging. But keeping him on Luca, I think probably helped wear him down throughout the game. It still wasn't like, you know, I think the game plan at this point is probably the game plan.

You just see if they're going to miss shots. And I think that's fine. And you don't let Luca get off. But yeah, I just, I think I think I was personally waiting for a performance like this. I think we got a little bit of it in game four. But at the same time, like it just, I'd like to see a little bit more of that consistency. from him because he can pull it out of his bag and maybe it's some maybe it's just a case if he didn't want to do it this early um and now he maybe realizes he has to i definitely you know like the clippers

misunders underestimated the maps like there's no question about that they wanted him regardless of the results of this series i will never understand why you will why you would ask for for lucca donchich in a moment when you have you have also like you know communicated to him that you think that he's not going to beat you. I get that we don't really think about the psychological aspect of the game that much, but I don't know. It just doesn't

seem like a great call there. That said, one more game. Don't really know what's going to happen next. Speaking of emotions and all the psychological stuff, Luca, Luca, we saw it a little bit today. Is this first game seven ever? He's obviously played in

championship scenarios. He's won a EuroLeague final. He's hit all kinds of crazy shots. Like, he's, I'm not worried about him in the clutch, but I do think that, you know, Game 7 is a very specific type of environment. I don't think that it can actually be, like, really explained or felt until you're in it, at least based on, like, what people who have actually experienced and have said it, it's not exactly a Mabbs or Clippers, I guess, style game, but I think the Clippers might

actually be more suited to, like, the nerves aspect of it. And also, just have more physical guys on their team. where if it does just become one of those games where you're going to have to grind it out, I favor the clippers if it turns into that type of game and there's just more there's more guys that have been there.

I don't know, I'm curious. I'm curious and excited for game seven, Luca. It should be awesome to see. And in terms of judging, especially at the stars against each other, like who's going to show up and really play at a really high level

between Luca and Kauai and Paul George, that's where we get into what we were just kind of talking about with Kauai, which is I think he can be the best player on the floor in any game, but he can't be the best player on the floor necessarily in every game. There is a little bit of that. When is he going to turn it on factor with him? And game sevens, he turns it on. Elimination games, he turns it on.

And that doesn't always mean super high efficiency, but it may mean late in this game in a game seven scenario, taking the shots when other players don't want to, when everyone else is feeling the spotlight a little bit more. Like, that is a dude who is not afraid to go 12 for 3, if it means getting his team the best possible shots. And so that's going to be the mirror question with Luca is when you get late into that game and if he has a similar kind of arc to his performance where he hasn't been hitting shots in the second half as effectively,

is he going to be passing out of stuff, is he going to be reading the same way, is Luca going to be on top of the action of the game in the way you have to be to close something out on the road against the team as good as the Clippers? I mean, I have faith that he is that kind of gamer, that he has that in him. but you're right and the environment of a game 7 emotionally is a very charged thing and we kind of just have to see it a little bit. Yeah, it's going to be interesting.

What did you think of? He had a strange game. He had a strange game. What did you think? Luca. Yeah. I thought the Clippers did a better job in general of kind of reading where he wanted to go

and some of that had to do with the passing as much as anything. Like his initial targets and some of the stuff that was open from earlier in the series, they were able to cut off pretty effectively. And then I thought they also were reading really well when he wanted to set up Bobon. And so like, you know, even with Boban shooting,

okay, you know, a lot of those were like kind of taps to himself off the glass. I don't think it was actually as bad as five of 13. But I haven't gone back and looked at it, but I would guess that at least a couple of Lucas three turnovers were trying to feed to him over the top and either resulting in a Bobon offensive foul or going out of bounds or the clippers picking it off. he has to be able to read some of those situational cases

a little bit better, a little bit sharper, because that's the adaptation of a series. You know, to start it out, he was one step out of everything the Clippers wanted to do defensively. I feel like they haven't caught up to him. You don't catch up to a player like Luca, but they've narrowed the gap between the amazing plays he wants to make and can make

and the things that they can take away from him and force to be a little more difficult. Yeah, I don't think I saw him get a lot of easy shots today at all. Like he wasn't getting to the rim. I mean, he was hardly even getting the shots that he likes to get, you know, in the perimeter area. Yeah, I, I'm a little, watching him in that second half, getting frustrated with the refs, getting frustrated with coverages. I think there's a moment where he yelled at Willie Colley Stein. But who among us hasn't, you know?

Yeah, yeah, totally. Have you yelled at Willie Collie Stein? Not lately. But, I mean, if I were Luca, I would understand it. And, I mean, the other thing, too, look, all of this wrapped up in the fact that he put up 29, 11, and 8 in this game, he was pretty great by anyone else's standards. The reality is he put up that line and they lost in a game where their defense was good enough. And that's just kind of where the Mav's rotation is right now offensively. Like, you may get a good game from Tim Hardaway Jr.

You may not. You may get a good game from Jalen Brunson. You may not. Luca is in a place where he kind of has to score 40 and have a great pass. game and be on top of everything in terms of maintaining and running the offense for them to win. He can do that. But, man, game seven, I'm looking forward to it. All right.

Well, I think this is a good place to wrap it up. Rob, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so, I'm just enthused that we got to do a podcast together. It's a beautiful thing. I think this is maybe our first podcast together ever. Do you think it is? I think it's got to be. Oh, my gosh.

Well, it was really nice to meet you. I really hope that we can, you know, get to actually like maybe do this in real life one day. I mean, we got a long way to go on that. Okay. All right. Well, I'm going to find a, I'm going to find your Mavericks book before Game 7. Anybody who doesn't know, Rob wrote a book about the 2011 Mavericks. 10-year anniversary is coming up.

If the Mabs win game seven, he's actually promised me that he will do it. a 10-year anniversary book tour. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So get your tickets for that. Buy the book. And hey, good luck with the rest of the tour. Thank you.

You know, it's a lot of stops in the Midwest, but this time of year, that's great. Awesome. All right. Thanks, Rob. Yeah, we've got Chris Ryan and myself talking about Sun's Nuggets, a little bit of Trey versus Ben Simmons,

over on the answer. So stick around after the break. All right, we're back. Sir, what's up? Congratulations to Luca Oracle. Hawaii, depending on what just happened in that game. But we are here to talk. Very happy for either of those people. Either one of them. We're here to talk about great people on both sides. Okay, sorry, you can go. You can go now. We're here to talk about a theme that's

emerging from this, from this postseason, because, you know, the image that I'm going to take with me, it's kind of a combination of images, but like the sort of sequence that I'm going to take with me from that Laker Suns series is definitely the, uh, Verve, with which Devin Booker finished the game, especially his two-handed dunk towards in the closing seconds of that final game against the Lakers, and the kind of flat line that LeBron finished on

where he's obviously just like completely exhausted and tapped out. But I don't want to take too much from that because of Anthony Davis plays, who knows what kind of conversation we're having. But I do think it's pretty kind of fascinating of an image to this idea of like the kind of the page turning, the league, kind of changing hands a little bit,

and maybe like this youth movement coming in, Do you think that that's an overstatement to draw that much of a conclusion out of a series that was so affected by injury? No, it really feels like the changing of the guard. Like, it's not just Booker. I feel like this whole playoffs is just going to feature guys that we haven't really gotten to know very well. And they're playing each other, which is super exciting. Yeah, I think it's very sad. It's very sad for me.

Like, any time you start to notice the passage of time, like, I think at the start of the game, Booker was walking by LeBron and LeBron, you've been able to see the gray's in his beards for a while now, but it just felt a little bit different because you just didn't know what LeBron you were going to get. They just symbolized more and he's just youthful with his rosy cheeks

just ready to go. Yeah, it really, it feels like something is changing in these playoffs. You see it with Kauai versus Luca. We're going to talk Ben versus Trey. coming up. And, you know, we've got, we've got the Sons versus Nuggets too. And that's, I don't know. Let's just jump in. Yeah, let's do it right now. So I think that one of the more fascinating parts about all this is how much of the talent remaining in the postseason is, are playing

for the teams that drafted them. Or at least they have been with those teams since they were in there, like, early in their careers. There's with some like, you know, trades that go on right around there at the beginning of their careers. But I think it's kind of neat. I mean, like, we've spent so much lung capacity talking about player empowerment and star movement and blockbuster trades and free agency and that's the way to get to a championship fastest. Obviously, that still is really viable, all those are really viable paths. But it's kind of awesome as a Sixers fan to see Embedon Simmons getting into the second round, or at least one of them. And then watching the Hawks, watching the Nuggets, watching the Jazz and watching the Suns, propel themselves

was largely off the play of guys they got in the draft with obviously some assistance from people like Chris Paul or people like, you know, Austin Rivers in the case of the Nuggets. What do you think of this sort of, are we seeing kind of like a return to the draft as like a championship building mechanism? Yeah, I think it's really interesting, right? Because I find that the whole small market thing

can sometimes be used as an excuse by not great franchises for why they're not doing that well. And if you look at what's happening right now, you have a lot of different examples of team building. You know, with Denver, they've done things in a really interesting way. First of all, drafting Yokic recognizing, I think the thing that Denver does is that they recognize guys that don't necessarily look like they'd be great at playing basketball, but end up being really great at playing basketball. think they've, you know, I think they keyed into something with, with small guards, too. You know, getting Composso, Marcus Howard, seeing how those guys would fare when a lot of guys, a lot of, a lot of teams wouldn't look at them because they're hype. You know, they've, they've gone after guys that don't necessarily have, not just Yokish, right?

Like, you know, they took Willie Hernan Gomez to, like, you know, really, like, turn him into a project and then he ended up flipping him. but they definitely seem to find value later in the draft. Jamal Murray was another guy that was kind of a question in terms of, you know, is he a combo guard or not? And then, you know, you look at a team like Utah. I think the thing that they have in common is that they've developed their players really well. But I actually, well, now that I think about it,

I think Denver and the Suns might be a better comparison to each other because the Suns haven't necessarily always, drafted the way that you'd expect them to draft too. Right. Even if you look back at Devin Booker. Coming out of Kentucky, well, first of all, I just, I like when guys go to Kentucky. I do too. I just think there's something to, you wanting the smoke.

You're just saying like, yeah, I'm going to come in and be like a semi-professional person instead of being a college student. I want 20,000 fans. I want Cal. I want Kenny Payne. And I find that for the most part, like the top end Kentucky guys, end up showing more than they do when they're at Kentucky. So, you know, Devin Booker was not exactly the guy that you would have seen being like

the best player in that draft. And I think that, you know, Cam Johnson wasn't really one of those picks either, right? And, you know, you see it this year with Jalen Smith too. Like the Sons kind of don't really care where they draft, it seems like, which I don't think, you know, I think there's some edges that they miss out on and stuff. But I think like those are two teams that really trusted their gut in terms of development. Yeah. And they've done a pretty good job of it.

But the other end of it is that, like, you know, you don't see it very often because it takes time. You know, Ryan McDonough was a guy who drafted Devin Devin Booker. Yeah. McHale Bridges, DeAndre Aiton, which, you know, like you can always, if we want to look back to DeAndre Aten pick, like, yes. They would have rather had Luca. Yes. Of course. Or try. Like, yeah. But at the same time, you know, Aiton's looking really, really good right now, too. So, you know, trusting their development. But, you know, for any small market teams, like, hire the right people.

And if you want long-term results, then think long-term, you know, like, keep guys around. So much of it is luck. So much of it is that really precise moment where you have to kind of start drafting, not just for best player available, but for fit and for what this guy might be able to do for us in the postseason.

I think of somebody like bridges like that, who's like obviously a player that was briefly a sixer, but like feels like a dude who you would just be like, I would love five of these guys in the playoffs. You know what I mean? Like, it just feels like he's never going to make a massive mistake. He can pick up really like a serious defensive responsibility in each series. He could knock down a couple of threes when you really needed.

He did that against the Lakers in game six. And that's a pick where you're like, it doesn't set the world on fire. It's like a guy who's been at Nova for a little while. But like he comes in and he's just like immediately, it seems like immediately ready to start playing well. and comes out of the bubble and into this season and is like, like, kind of like, you're like, oh, this guy's just like an immediate playoff rotation player.

And Cam Johnson has become that too. So it's pretty fascinating to watch them sort of draft people that you wouldn't necessarily write a letter about like their pure potential, but like they have like this real usefulness on a playoff team, which is obviously what the sun saw themselves as. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's super fascinating to see, through the draft, like how different teams value things as well.

Like, you know, I just wrote a piece about Memphis. And one of the things that they kind of did that's similar to what the sons have done and why I think Memphis probably had success earlier in the playoffs than than they should have is the fact that like they drafted guys that spent some time in college and also like played a lot of different roles seem like they would be okay playing a lot of different roles, which I think like is a really good, really important projector for. for what you do in the future. And they also, you know, just like went for stockier guys, went for bigger guys,

just like valued intelligence more than, I think, a lot of other things. It's interesting to kind of watch in a way that you don't necessarily with some of these teams that are put together. Like, you look at the Warriors, for example, as a team that was built through the draft. Like, they kind of, they had this identity built around Clay and Steph Curry shooting and then like the intelligence of Draymond, well, you know, they didn't, they didn't draft Steph, but like that is an ethos that's built into what the organization is, right? But that takes time.

And I think you see, you see a version of it in Milwaukee where, you know, they're very defensive-minded. And you kind of, you see, like, what would you say is the one team that I think has actually done a good job with diversifying, a lot of the guys that it's brought on and developing at the same time. time it's Utah. Like, I think Utah is one of those teams where they actually have a bunch of guys that are different. Yeah. Yeah. And they also, I mean, I think, so Utah kind of reminds me a little bit of what Philly did where they've had, I wouldn't say like a ton of turnover since Donovan's popped, but like they've brought in a fair amount of guys from Conley to the people that they sort of surround those dudes with like Bogdanovich. And the same thing sort of has happened with Philly with

Ben and Joel where they've seen like 10 or 11 different supporting players come through in like whatever, like the last four seasons. So I think that when you initially like that you might look at that and say like, well, that's just like a lot of chaos and a lot of turnover. But it's kind of cool to like establish your base two guys, your base three guys, whoever it's going to be. And then be like all the other pieces can change. The style can change. We can find the style that suits the two of them, whatever it is. We can find the right coach, whoever it is. And then, and then like they will lead us to the promised land rather than you know ever getting too freaked out

and then this is why I'm glad the Sixers never traded Simmons is like if they had broken from that like you wouldn't get to see what you're about to see now whether or not they're going to beat the Hawks is another question but I think that it's actually like going through all that together has like made them a little bit more of a solid pair and I think it's also worked for Goberra Mitchell even if they haven't always liked each other that much

yeah it's it's kind of interesting like the Simmons point especially because, you know, the same, that was, that was one of those picks. Like, looking at Philly is really interesting because after Hinky, they kind of went completely the opposite direction of the direction they had been going in, which I think is the reason why the team was really, really lopsided and weird for a while. And now they're kind of, you know, just, I don't know, I don't want to say, like, just because Mory's there, they're going back in, like, the process-oriented direction. Like, they're trying to win a championship.

That's not of, you know, they're not at that stage anymore. but I think that it kind of like gave them an odd logic for a while, which is why we've had, I think, like, so many questions about Ben Simmons. And we're going to turn things over to you, how the turntables have turned, Chris Ryan. We're going to talk about your number one boy. Okay.

Ben Simmons. Yeah. First of all, I want to start this off by saying that, like I think Ben Simmons is probably, we're talking about young players today, right? the cool thing about young players is all we care about is their potential and look how great their future is going to be in the league and here are all of these things that he he can do right yes yes uh with simmons it's kind of always been the opposite story i think it's for a number of reasons like first of all he made the playoffs in his rookie year and when you get to the playoffs as a young player you get exposed right like that's just kind of the natural thing that happens and it doesn't take a genius to realize that ben's lack of a jump shot was getting exposed and there's There's a number of things that are on him there. You know, I think there's a lack of improvement, a lack of willingness that is part of it.

But more than anything else, I just think that he's a guy that we focus way too much on the things that he can't do as opposed to the things he can do. That said, once again, once again, Ben Simmons has been put in a position where we are going to be discussing what his limitations are because he's now probably likely. I guess this is where we can start. He's probably going to be playing without Embed for at least the start of the Hawks series. Yeah, this is so weird. I don't really know what, like, you and I were chatting about this earlier. I don't, I have no idea what the deal is. Like if Embedd is breaking case of emergency, if he's like, I need a week off, but I can come back for game three.

If he's going to need three weeks off and he can come back for the conference finals, if it's just swelling, if they're worried about something more happening. It's one of these, there was like a delay in the MRI. like the MRI like results took a full day to come out like I I this is this is like start serial season four about this one for me because I don't I don't even know yeah it's difficult to say how much do you think this is just them not wanting to give the Hawks a hint on on what they're doing because I'm sure that they have like their plan like I'm sure they're just like whatever like we just don't want to necessarily make like let the Hawks know whether or not to expect him in game two or not

I have to imagine that the Sixers know, like, they have, like, a blueprint because I actually think it does make a difference between finding out, like, right before the game that he can't go versus, like, going into it knowing it's going to be Ben and four out, and then it's going to be, like, Dwight and whoever you're going to be rotating in, and that's going to be the mix for the game. I do think it makes a little bit of a difference. Seems to make a difference for Simmons, too. Yeah, I mean, no question, right?

Like, I think it's, I think it makes a difference for both sides, right? like probably a little bit more for the Hawks but that's what's so fascinating about this the Sixers I think are going to have to play a completely different style without Embed and it is a very it is the style that Ben Simmons fans have been saying

needs to be played five out Beny and the Jets probably switch you know run him out of the gym so Chris first of all I didn't know you were Ben Truther I'm a bit of a Ben Truther myself or I don't know where I am on the Ben Simmons scale I'm not anti though where tell me, give me your best case for Ben Simmons.

Like, best case in this series or best case just in his life in general? Like, best case in his career. Because his best case in his career is probably that he is not the right second star for playing with Ambien. And I know that there are a lot of people out there who have a lot of advanced metrics that will prove that suggests that it's not a matter of those two guys. It's matter of their supporting cast. But I do think that like Simmons's particular gifts to me would be best utilized in a way. that we might actually see against the Hawks, which has been with a collection of other playmakers and shooters around him.

On offense, he's the primary playmaker, and on defense, he's essentially playing the five. So it's like essentially, it's essentially like a Draymond role, you know what I mean, where it's like he's not expected to score from the perimeter. He can drive downhill, he can kick out, he can set up other guys and you want to get them into transition.

He didn't really have a ton of transition opportunities in that wizard. Wizard series is such a rock fight. You're talking about his like, his negatives. I think that the issue, the thing that's so awesome about the NBA postseason is that it really does put a microscope on any flaws in people's game. And the reason why I was kind of blown away by what Tray Young was doing against the Knicks was because they were actually like asking questions of him that I thought he wouldn't be able to answer. I thought if he got blitzed by big guys out at like mid-court, he might not be able to get out of the double team. I thought he might not be able to get out of the, the double team. I thought he might not, make the smart skip pass all the time.

Like, I didn't know if he would respond to playing well in that kind of environment at MSG because it gets pretty quiet in Atlanta, you know, and during basketball games. Like, I didn't know. And so it's kind of neat to see him respond in that way. With Simmons, I think that we got, like, hung up a little bit on, like, the free throw practice footage

and definitely his missed free throws and his percentage. I thought Doc handled that great. I think he was just like, I want him to shoot even more free throws and I'll take a point per possession if he's at the line. Like, that's fine with me. It sucks when it happens in the last five minutes. But I think we're about to see, like, the Sixers were fine without Embed.

And they played a pretty cupcake schedule, but they were pretty good. Like, during that last stretch when Embed was out in the regular season, they're really good at home. Simmons is an elite defender. And I actually am not as, like, nervous about this as I think I might have been a year ago. Okay. So what's the formula? how were we, let's start with Trey. How was he defending Trey?

Or how are the Sixers defending Trey? You tell me because I saw, no, because I saw a really, like, it's weird to watch Tibs not know how to do it. You know what I mean? And I think that they, they didn't like blitz him that much, but when they, did they blitz him that much? But when they did blitz him, he was either splitting it or passing out really well. Yeah, I mean, I don't, we didn't see a lot of it.

They played the pick and roll, like, pretty straight up and just tried to have Bullock fight over for the most part. Bullock was, I think Bullock was like pretty much his primary defender throughout the series and it didn't really, it didn't work. Yeah. I think the Sixers can switch a lot more. I think they have more defenders they can throw at him.

That includes Ben Simmons, Thibel, a little bit of Danny Green, even a little bit of Seth Curry. Quicker guys, guys that can get around screens if you need to do that. Or also guys that can just pick you up coming off the switch. But it's, this is kind of where I think, you miss mb like what do you do about clink capella when you switch he's the league's best offensive rebounder and he's really great on the slip and just at manipulating what the space that he should be in when you know you try to take away some stuff from a guy like tray yeah and it's

i guess the question is it's like if this is all about adjustments like when does doc get scared of watching capella feast on a smaller sixers lineup if he is and when does he start reverting to like putting Dwight in for extended periods of time that I don't think anybody really wants to see. Does Dwight start? No, I don't think Dwight will start, but I think Dwight will come in in like the first quarter and start playing.

Like I don't think he'll go away from the lineup that he ended the Wizard series with. But I do think that like, I do think that there will be a point where like if there's a lot of Capella flushes, like he's going to get a little nervous about that. I kind of wish that the Sixers had a third center for this exact reason.

But that's too late now. I think that, do you think that in terms of just like what's on the line, like, it seems like Trey Young is now playing with like house money. Like this is actually like a series that will, if were the Sixers to lose, be more embarrassing for Simmons than it would be if the Hawks lost for Trey Young. Because Trey Young is like almost ahead of schedule somehow now. So the last two weeks for Trey Young have just been the ultimate vindication for everything. It's such a whirlwind.

Yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's also just really exciting. I love that he's embracing the villain role and, you know, he's just, he's kind of an impossible cover when he's hitting his shots. I'm really excited to see him interact with the Philly crowd.

And I also think, like, he presents a really interesting challenge for, for Ben as well. Like, they're pretty, they're kind of polar opposites, actually, now that you think of it. Oddly, you've both, like, been brought up in the point guard position.

Neither of them really represent what your idea of a point guard is anymore, because like aside from Chris Paul, no one really represents that anymore, but they're kind of like, they're their polar ends of it. And in this like very strange NBA, you're probably going to have six nine Ben Simmons,

who has all the athleticism in the world and the defensive instincts in the world to be able to try to hold, hold up Tray Young, who is like a six foot bean pole. And you're, I mean, look, like here's a positive for you. You're going to get a ton of cross matches.

I think Simmons in the Post can really do some stuff in this series. I think they're going to have to play him a lot, a lot in there. But it's just, it's, it's going to be a lot of fun. And I think it'll be like an interesting philosophical series. I think it'll be an interesting series, like, from the standpoint of all these sort of different, different positional inversions. And also just like, Ben versus Trey, like, you know, that's, if Ben gets up for this and this goes like six or seven. And I think that's always a question, like, how much and how, for how long is Ben going to get up for this? because he's going to have to rebound.

He's going to have to make plays. He's going to have to defend. He's going to have to set screens. Like, he's going to have to do a little bit of everything. Like, he's going to have to kind of be Draymond Plus. Like, we've talked before about how Ben's kind of ideal role would have been to be in a Draymond Green situation where he is just doing all that stuff and we're not really worried too much about the scoring.

Like, if he scores, it's kind of like a bonus. He's a number one pick and, like, there's all this hype behind him. And there is also an expectation that I think from the Sixers that he, that he, that he, do a little bit of that at least. I mean, like, they've paid him a ton of money. And it's going to be really interesting to see, like, can we get like 18 points per game, triple double, Ben? Like, I don't know, can we get him like three or four times in this series, right? I think if you can, the series can go seven. He's practically averaging that in the postseason. I mean, this is statistically, he's, for as much as he took like some, some shots in that, I mean, shots like from the media,

not shots on the floor, unfortunately. For the shots he took in the Washington series, he's having like a pretty good numbers-wise, postseason so far. If you gave me those numbers against Atlanta, I would definitely take them. Just last thing on the Ben point, do you think people overreacted to the game poor performance? Yes. Yes. Definitely. And I think also, like, if you have something like, they were doing it to Janus too.

Like, the free throw thing is just like, if you can get like footage, like, now they're doing with Janus with the amount of time it takes for him to shoot it. With Ben, they were doing like the pregame footage of him working out with Sam Kassell, like, which was just Sam Kassel. which was just Sam Kassel watching him shoot, basically. But I think that the free throw has become like this weird pressure point where you can just be like, well, we have good like isolated footage of this person doing this. So like we could just like make fun of them missing. But yeah, like I thought like it was a little bit of an overreaction to basically like a game four loss essentially. Yeah, I felt like as soon as they figured out like, okay, we need to try a few different lineups.

Like I'm kind of curious what you think of a playoff doc so far. I'm very into it. I have no doubt that at some point, like, I will, like, start banging my head against the wall because it feels like he's being, like, really stubborn

because that's what everybody who's ever had a Doc Rivers coach team has said is, like, at some point, he will just keep trusting guys that you're like, please stop trusting this guy. But right now, I thought he did an amazing job

of just being like, if you guys think that Ben Simmons is a liability, then either you or I don't know anything about basketball. And that was like, I thought that did a really good job of just like, A, he's my guy, B, we put it like a period at the end of the sentence.

And then like his reaction to free throw stuff, I thought was great. I thought his reaction to handling the Embed stuff where it's just like, this isn't a cataclysm where we're going to all go into mourning about this. It's like injuries happen. We'll keep it moving.

I've been through a lot of playoffs. This is going to be like a postseason of attrition. We've already lost like Paul Donchich, like Davis and B, like we've had so many like significant injuries to like big players right now. We lost Davis. and the Lakers lost because of that.

It just feels like one of those post seasons where we'll look back in five or six years and be like, oh, yeah, that was the year that Davis hurt his groin, right? Yeah, right, okay, right. Because I was like, you do that a lot with like Spurs teams, I feel like where it's like, oh, that's right, that's right.

When Tony Parker blew his quadriceps out, right? Yeah, when all the suns got suspended. That's right. What's the next, other than Trey and Ben, we can wrap up by talking about, like, I'm curious, what's your next most anticipated young player duel. In one of the teams that might match up in the postseason.

Gosh, Luca versus either Yokic or Booker. I mean, we haven't talked enough about Yokic versus Booker. Yeah. Let's do that. Let's talk about Yokch of Booker. Yeah, that's a series that I think is going to be really interesting. We talked about it a little bit yesterday. But it's, I think it's just really going to come down to how much does Yokic have to give

at this juncture? like he's played every game this season, which is not a thing that any superstar has done. He's done it while being MVP and like really keeping Denver together through all these injuries they've had. He's kind of just like, I called him a vacuum yesterday for all the lost offense that they have. He just kind of, he just filters it in and just finds a new place to put it. He's like, oh, okay, Jamal Murray is out. Here's 10 points for you, Michael Porter Jr. He's 10 points for you, Monta-Morris. I don't know how much longer he can do that for. And also I think that like the the nuggets have to get really hot.

But I think man, like you just have two guys that they can get hot at any time. And I don't think that there's an appropriate cover on either the other teams on that can guard them. Like definitely not for Denver, at least at least the sons of eight. Yeah. No one like yeah. Like is like Michael Port Jr. Like he's who is figuring it out a little bit. But like not Devin Booker who just smoked the Lakers and like, you know, just didn't care that Schroeder was on him, didn't care that Caruso was on him.

I think honestly, like, you're going to have to try Monta Morris a couple times. Like, you really, I mean, you miss Gary Harris here. Like, you knew that they were going to eventually miss Gary Harris. And I think they're going to, they're going to miss him in this series. Jamal would have obviously been fantastic to have. But I just, I think it's going to be the sons. Do you think, do you think Gordon will, we'll, we'll pick Booker up at all? I've been thinking about this.

And I think Booker is a little too quick for him. Yeah. I think he can do a good job against Chris Paul, actually. I think he might be one of the few guys that could kind of like close the gaps on the space that he creates while also being able to stay in front. And we're going to like speaking of attrition, we're going to kind of have to see how Chris Paul is feeling too. But that's pretty much it. And I think I think eventually that's something that Chris Paul would suss out as well. Like I really think you need quickness to beat these sons.

And like the fact that the Lakers with their, you know, double triple point guard headed lineups couldn't do it. I don't think that I don't think that Denver is really going to be the team either. but that's going to be a fun one. Well, I'm really excited to see that. Like, yeah, I obviously, we're recording this before the Clippers Mavericks game six. So we don't know what happened with that. But obviously, like, Aluca versus either of those guys in the next round would be great. But he has to go through, he would have to get through Gober and Mitchell first anyway.

I mean, that's, it's funny. It's like I saw a bunch of people tweeting, not that this really matters, but like, oh, woe is the NBA because there's no, no LeBron, no Steph in the Western Conference now. And even Lillard was like at least a name. and now we've got all these like no names. I'm like you're about to like mint like four new stars. Like you're about to like introduce Mitchell Yokic and Booker and either and maybe Luca to like the whole wide world who are going to be like, okay, I'm going to watch

the Western Conference semifinals. Yeah. And ultimately like this is what you need too. And like a lot of these guys came out with a lot of hype out of college. Like, Tray's a draw. Yeah. Yeah. You're not losing by getting Tray Young in the second round, especially playing a big market

like Philly. like whether it beads out or not, like that's going to be a series and him going, you thought he went back and forth with Madison Square Garden fans? Oh my gosh, Philly's going to be insane. Like that's just, that's, that's, that's incredible television. Devin Booker versus Yokic is going to be incredible television. Devin Booker is just incredible television. Like anybody that's been missing like these smooth, silky wings that have been able to,

been able to score like any old school fan of the NBA, like, Devin Booker is your guy. You just like, this is kind of where the NBA has failed. little bit. And I don't want to say the NBA. We always talk about, you know, like, why aren't these young guys being marketed enough? Right? Like, it's, it's a little bit of everything, right? You can, you can, you can blame the NBA. You can blame, like, the way media is now. Well, according to you, there's, like, a whole generation of people sitting out there being like, I'm not coming back until I get a smooth, silky wing, you know? I've been waiting for silky wings.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, people, people are always saying. People are always saying. I miss, I miss smooth silky wings in the end. Can I ask you one last question? We did not mention the Brooklyn Nets this entire time. The Brooklyn Nets are a super team. The Brooklyn Nets are, I think mid-old. They're not old, but they've got guys who have been around for a while. And, you know, like, they are... They're older than the guys that we've been talking about.

Yes. And they are a creation of free agency. And they are obviously, like, you know, a supernova of an offensive team. Were Brooklyn to proceed to the title or at least, like, you know, dispatch the bucks and then dispatch, like, at least, get to the finals, does it sort of negate anything that we've just been talking about? It's a good question. I mean, obviously, not every franchise can go out and do what Brooklyn did. Like, to say that they would have gotten KD and Kyrie based on like this excellent

culture that they built and, you know, went and pretty quickly dismantled, I think that would be a little bit pie in the sky. The fact that their New York obviously matters. But at the same time. I just think that the franchise thing, you have to make it work for you. Like, there are certain franchises that I think all like NBA players are always going to be a little bit sour on, right? But I don't think that's the majority of them. I think like, okay, we're going to see, we're going to see this, right? Like, this is this, this is already started to happen with the suns. Um, suddenly the sons are going to feel like an attractive market, right? And then if, if they actually manage to carry this Chris Paul thing, this, the goal of the Chris Paul era should not

be necessarily to win a championship, although now they're actually in a position where they might. It should be to turn the suns into a destination to say, hey, look, this is a place where you can win. And by the way, like, it's really great to live here from November to May every year, right? They're trying to do that. And I think that there's been some mild success on that level. Even just Chris Paul's arrival there is a little bit of proof of that. It's a place that a lot of NBA players spend a chunk of time in the offseason, just like, Atlanta, just like Miami, just like Houston. And there's like there's so many there's so many

of these teams that live in like this nebulous space where there aren't really that defined up until the fact that they'd be either either they are so decrepit that they're called a small market like Phoenix has been for for so long or they figure their stuff out and all the sudden they become a big market. Like Miami is a great example of this. Miami's a attractive market. It's not a big market. The Bay Area is like kind of giant cultural significance like like, you know, its growth in its culture of significance and also just its growth in general lined up with the Warriors winning championships

pretty well, but you saw some of that discourse change. I remember in Toronto it went from like, like, you know, like, you know, the back was. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Like, international hub. Which, by the way, like, it totally is.

Sure. Just the same way Philly is like the sixth borough of New York, you know, and it's like, it's a great place to commute from. just while we're here, just so everyone knows, it is a great place. But you don't hear that until they have success. Right. All of which is to say, I think if you're a mid-level franchise,

you have a lot more say in how you're defined if you don't necessarily fall into the small market trap. Keep that in mind, New Orleans. You know, it's worth remembering, especially as we go into the free agency and it's at the off season. We'll talk about this a lot more in terms of market size. Sir, thank you so much.

Thank you so much for all of your thoughts on the Clippers and the Mavericks, which I'm excited to listen to. Thanks to Sir, we'll be back next Friday. We are produced as always by Isaiah.