The Ringer NBA Show - Kevin Durant to the Suns, the Lakers’ Makeover, and Many More Trade Deadline Ups and Downs | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

Logan is joined by The Ringer’s J. Kyle Mann to react to the most significant moves from this year’s explosive NBA trade deadline. First, they open by breaking down the Phoenix Suns’ trade for Kevin Durant and its seismic impact on the rest of the league (2:15). Next, the guys discuss why the Los Angeles Lakers’ decision to move on from Russell Westbrook and add a handful of young pieces will improve their long-term chances of winning (19:18). Along the way, they talk about the Detroit Pistons taking a flier on James Wiseman (32:45). Finally, they close with a rapid-fire look at the rest of the trade deals around the league (46:36). Hosts: Logan Murdock  Guest: J. Kyle Mann Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady The 'Ringer NBA' squad is coming to Salt Lake City for NBA All-Star Weekend! Get your tickets here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, everybody? This is Logan Murdoch from Real On I have some big news to share. On Saturday, February 18th, the Ringer NBA show will be hitting the road for All-Star weekend for a live show in Salt Lake City. You heard that right. We are taping the pod in front of a live audience in Salt Lake next month and we want you to join us. Pull up on us at the Stateroom in the heart of downtown Salt Lake. You can grab your tickets now at thestateroom.com. That's the stateroom.com. Doors open at 9 o'clock. Show is at 10. It's going to be a 21 and up event. come hang with the gang and chat midseason updates draft preview and even have a Q&A with us space is limited so grab your tickets while they last at the stateroom.com or click the link in the description of this show hope to see y'all in there what's popping logan mernock here j kyleman there

and welcome to the real one's trade deadline extravaganza jk how you doing bud how are you feeling at this very moment are you are you what is your what is your overall vibe after this whirlwind uh just trying to come down a little bit and get my, uh, get my, uh, get my bearings. I'm the little kid in the, in the gift that is doing the woe thing. Like the wind is blowing. The, the wind literally is blowing like tornado hard in Kentucky right now,

but that's, uh, maybe that's because Logan, the symbolism, the winds of change, man, the winds of change in basketball. There was a strong wind,

I think today. And there is sort of a weird weather. I was thinking as I was driving out, I had to drive out to my parents this morning, but I was, uh, I was thinking to myself. I was like,

we get in warm weather. And then it seems like we can't get that kind of weather this time of year without some kind of horrible, like, rain or like crazy wind. And I was thinking, like, Denver fans have to be feeling like that. You know, they were feeling like, I was thinking Denver fans have to be thinking, man, we had this sunny situation. We were like, they saw the open road ahead of them. They were like, we got this team. We finally got right. And then the whole league just turned, arms race was used like, I heard that phrase over and over again, man.

Teams were just like really seasoned the moment, it seemed like today. the kind of trade deadline that we like, right? It was this chaos, chaos carnage. Well, in one of those big gusts of wind, Kevin Durant was traveling to Phoenix and a monumental trade that happened last night. Him and T.J. Warren to the Phoenix Suns for McKell Bridges, one of my faves, friend of the show, Cam Johnson, Jay Crowder, four unprotected first round picks in 2023, 2025, 2027, 2029, plus a 2028 pick swap. so many ways we can go down here first. We could talk about the ramifications in all ways.

But as we texted before this pod, Kyle, a shit ton of picks. And I think that that is the, that is one of the going rate for a superstar like Kevin Duran, but that has also been the theme of this trade deadline. It's just everybody trading for the future. Who won this trade very, very early? And what are the immediate ramifications that come to mind for you when you think about this Katie to Phoenix trade right now? I mean, the immediate ramifications for the West is that these guys are going to be impossible to guard. I mean, you've got two really good movement shooters.

You've got the, like, the Trump Alpha Dog isolation score still in the world. You know, Kevin probably, I don't know, how many more years do you think he has left of being this guy? I'd say at least three, you know, and especially at his size, I think you factor in how he ages and how he's going to be able to affect like a championship level team. It's different for other people because as we've seen, you know, I hate this word. Trump because it's kind of morphed over the years. Just that's how stinky it is. But he trumps, he's like the ultimate offensive Trump card there is. And it's like it's different than talking about how Chris Paul is going to age or how even

LeBron's going to age. It's a different kind of a thing. So you think about what the sun's got here. So, you know, whether or not Chris Paul fits how long he fits into this dynamic, I think the Booker Durant thing is even more compartmentalized from that. And I think. For me, when I initially saw this trade, I know I heard people kind of talking on and on about how, like, great of a hall it was for Brooklyn. I'm like, I love bridges and, you know, and I love Camp Johnson, too. I've been a big fan of his.

I'm looking at it and I'm like, it feels a little low on the like star certainty sort of thing. Because you think about like in 27 and 29, if this is still like a thing, you know, if this is still like an experiment that's going, I guess it's just a simple question of like, how bad are the sun? is going to be in 27 and 29. Are they going to be in a reset by then? You're banking on that. I thought that they might move bridges again. That was something I was keeping an eye on. But I mean, overall, this is about getting stabs at a title.

The Suns obviously won the trade. I mean, they won the trade deadline. A few things about this. And I remember last night I saw the trade and I'm literally about to go to sleep. Like, I'm literally there. And, you know, when you're in bed and you're just on the phone, just scrolling and stuff. and then it's like, oh, shit, an alert of this magnitude comes through. And you're like, then you're immediately up for the rest of the night,

just trying to figure out scenarios. But I have a few thoughts about this trade. I think the most important thing about this trade for the Phoenix Sun's perspective is that they didn't give up DeAndre Aden. I could believe that. I could not believe that that happened. And that is such a luxury for the Suns, right? Because if you just, I mean, it would have been plausible for Brooklyn to X.

No, we want DeAndre Aden for Kevin. Durant because they're well within their right to access based on how great of a player that Kevin is. And somehow that immediately when I saw the trade, I'm like, oh, they got rid of Aiden. It was that makes sense of the cost of doing business. And Kevin somehow was like in the similar situation than he was at the height of the Brooklyn Nets, right? Where they don't have a front court. And it's a really, Kevin's a big dude, but he's a lanky guy. And they overall has a small team without front court depth.

So for them to have a starting five with Aiden. in that mix. Aiden is now, doesn't have to be your second best player at stretches of time and bear that responsibility. I thought it was a really great trade from a Phoenix perspective. And to your point about draft picks, it really doesn't matter when you have a roster makeup of the Phoenix Suns at this point, right? Because even if they, they're an older roster, they are a team that is looking for titles

and if it doesn't work out, Aiden is always there for you to trade. and picks will always be out there for you to get as we saw during this trade deadline. So I think overall it's a great trade. I am concerned about their depth, right? But as we've known, you know, throughout, you know, the years that, you know, top heavy teams tend to figure it out in some ways. And they, and you want the star player and the stars on your roster to be able to do that. So I think it's a really, really great trade for the Sons.

And honestly, based on how, you know, the experience that Brooklyn had over the last few years and for them to get an actual reset and exit from this, I thought this was a pretty solid trade deadline for the Brooklyn Nets. What do you think about the Brooklyn Nets aspect of this trade? Yeah, well, when I was talking about the picks, it's mainly the perspective I meant it from. I mean, for, yeah, for Phoenix, obviously, you just kind of figure that out later because it's not, you know, whenever you trade picks, it's not like they disappear, like they go somewhere. It's like they just went somewhere else.

So it's your point about like, I think the liquidity and like the fluidity. of picks around the league is like one of the big stories here. We were talking like over 35 second round picks got moved today. Maybe that's a result of there just not being as many first round picks out there available. They just kind of were moving to the next, the last thing that they had to move. And there's like a fuzzier future. That was like kind of the phrase you used. I know, but teams are getting better and better at using second round picks, I feel like.

Overall, man, I just think you go into this season. it's a really funny reset. It's a good reset for Brooklyn, I agree. They've got a lot of pieces that I think are valuable, that are desirable, and they're still going to be there in June, guys that are young. And I think that for Phoenix, it's a funny pivot away from like the malaise that they were feeling earlier in the season because I think they were feeling like, you know, man, we built all this, all this time, we got this team together that worked, that made sense.

And it was just kind of funny. I don't know if you've had this observation. You're a West Coast guy. It's always funny for me as not living in an NBA market to observe, like, the vibe of fan bases. It was just funny to watch them go from, like, happy to be here. We're loving this. We're happy. We're happy to be.

You're talking about us. You're thinking about us to, you know, they're good. And then you see them get a little more chesty to, I just saw them get depressed in this past year. So it's been a kind of a funny. Last spring was sad for the sun. It was legitimately sad when you think about it all the way to this week. And I was watching some of the Sun's accounts that I follow, like my guy, Sam Cooper. I was just watching his.

It was just a really hilarious upswing of good vibes for them. But that's life in the NBA, man. I mean, your fortune doesn't usually change to this extent, this quickly overnight. But, yeah, I mean, they're squarely in the hunt. Dude, if we get that Suns Mavs first round matchup, I can't wait. I mean, it's going to be. You think about the, you think about the Booker Luca thing. You think about, and then you think of Kyrie, I was still sincere at this.

I was like, Kyrie is going to be like the divorcee that gets an incredible shape. Like I feel like that's what's coming. We're getting ready to see. Well, I don't even know. Well, the thing about Kyrie is, I get what you're saying on the level of like the D4A or whatever, but like, and getting better. But like, he's been great all season on the court. Like, his numbers are great.

He's been playing really well. I mean, it's always, it was just funny how we said at his press conference. Yeah, the Brooklyn Nets are fine. We left them fourth in the east. Like, we did a good job. But a lot of that had to do with, like, you know, his contributions to the team. It's interesting, though, because when I think about it from your point about the sons from last season and on to this one, you know, if this KD deal doesn't go through,

this is probably a very different team next year. I think that that you can admit that and that you can see because. man, it was, it was, you know, they were, they were so good in that finals run in the 21 season. And then even the, even last year where, you know, they have the finals loss and it's the reset and it's the fuck you season I like to call where you're just going, oh, we're going to beat everyone. You guys, it's the you got, you had us messed up season where we're going to just, we're going to try to go for 60 games when they were really at their most effective. I think the sons were probably a 51 team if they're going to be a good team to, you know, make sure you have. have a fresh Chris Paul, but you have 50 wins and then you can make a deep playoff front. I think that they really went too far with trying to win all those games and use all that energy.

But anyway, I do think that this is a really great setup, you know, both for Kevin and the rest of the roster. Because you remember this, Kevin is a huge fan of Devin Booker. Oh, yeah. Has been a huge fan of Devin Booker for years, has always talked about how much he'd want to play with Book. And always just, you know, it's another thing that's ancillary and also interesting is I keep thinking about last summer and the trade requests from Kevin and Kyrie. It's interesting because people, I think with how good the Brooklyn Nets record was and, you know, how they were able to write the ship pre-KD getting injured, you almost forgot that those trade requests still. lingered, right? And those, the relationships between Kevin and Kyrie and that front office still lingered. And because of that, you always had another team in the rest of the league looming to get one

of those guys. That's why, you know, the two dominoes to fall were the first ones of fall, were Kevin and Kyrie, because there was so much dysfunction in that front office, there were so many things that, that they just didn't agree with with that front office. So you had an opportunity to, four teams if you're a Phoenix or if you're even a Mavs to be like, oh, let's just check in on this because I feel like the rest of the league was feeling like, oh, they didn't pat

the Nets and Kyrie and Kevin didn't patch things up. That was just a statement at face value. And now you're seeing the other side of that of, okay, they couldn't, the Brooklyn Nets couldn't wait to get rid of Kyrie and Kevin if they had a legitimate opportunity to do so. I really believe that because right when Kyrie does his trade request,

It was like, whew, bet, let's get you up out of here. And then Kevin, you know, do you want to be here or not? No, Kevin wants to go to Phoenix. Well, what then is right? All right, bet. Let's go to the next stage of where we're at. So, you know, it was this very interesting trade all the way around this one. I think this is something that we're going to continue to dissect for years to come.

But this is definitely, you could just see these two trades were the manifestations of what happened in the summertime. Yeah, I like the point that you made, too, about like this speaking. into the basketball of it that like kd has always talked about and you hear a lot of players they're they're like these different levels of player where i i feel like the peer-to-peer admiration sometimes can like not reflect the public's this isn't a shocking statement at all but like the public's assessment of a player can be very different than like the peer-to-peer and i feel like booker is in that different category of like the the just the respect for his craft you'll just hear people to and i feel like you know, the aesthetics of his game, the, the easiness of his game. He just seems like he's really

comfortable in his own skin and kind of peaking or just getting better and better. And I just think, I think the point you made about like overstressing Kevin as like a physical defender, having like an actual like solid body behind him. Also, this adds another guy for DeAndre Aiton to say, to say yes, sir, too constantly, which I always find, um, there's another one. Um, but what do you think about the KD, CP3 personality dynamic. How is that going to work, do you think? That's going to be interesting because I think with Kevin, and I said this in previous pause before, he's the kind of guy that the perfect definition for Kevin Durant is he is the guy that at least personality is not the alpha. And it's weird because every bit of his on-court persona would make, he's the best

player on that team, bar none. But he always just kind of needed that alpha in the locker room with him to be successful. And in Oklahoma City, that was Russell Westbrook. And Golden State, that was Draymond Green. But also, you know, he had the buffer with Steph and, like, and Clay and just the establishment of that locker room. And I think he tried to have that. I think he tried to have that with Kyrie. Kyrie is an alpha, but he just wasn't there and it didn't work out. But I think with this, with the CP situation, I think it'll be good. I really do think it'll be good. I have, because they're both at the stage of their careers where honestly they just want to win.

CP just wants to win. Like, he's at this point where I looked at his stats. And it's just really interesting because CP's one of the best point guards of all time. And then you see like, no, he's averaging like 13 and something. You know, it's one of those gears for him. But he's still going to be effective in the playoffs. I think it'll help from a. leadership standpoint that he is in there in that locker room and it's an establishment

locker room and Kevin can just come in and just play basketball, which is something that he always wants to do. But also, having Kevin on the team really takes pressure off of CP. And I think one of the things that you saw last year was how tired he got during that postseason run, right? And that goes back to the thing, what I was saying. I think the son should have been maybe striving for maybe a mid-50 win team instead of a 60-win team because that really, really, you know, that really, it really takes up a lot of energy to be a 61 team. And I think that that took a toll on CP. This year, you don't really have to worry about that.

I mean, Kevin's, you know, he has his knee issue right now, but he's by and large probably going to come fresh going into this postseason run. And I think that's going to be really good. I've talked myself in and out of if the sons are a favorite right now in the Western Conference. I'm really concerned about their depth, specifically. still, even though they have Aiden, they don't really have anybody else in the front court. And that's historically been an issue for the son. So you're not a big Jock Landell guy.

You're not convinced of his playoff. No. Nope. Not betting on that one. But I'm just curious to see, right? Because it's one of those things that Kevin has kind of always had to deal with, right? Where the same problem he was dealing with in Brooklyn, where he doesn't necessarily have front court help. And that is really, that's, I'm going to.

going back and forth to see, is that going to be a problem going into the postseason? I think ultimately, can they beat Denver? I think they can beat Denver in seven games. I do think that they have the potential to be able to do that. But it would be a hard series, and they are fatally flawed and that they don't have really front court help. And that'll harm them against, I think, Denver, but also I think it'll harm them in the Eastern Conference when you talk about if they go up against the Celtics.

And we don't know what's going on with Jaylon Brown right now. But if the Celtics, I'm assuming Jaylen Brown will be healthy enough and the Celtics will be healthy enough by that time. I am concerned about them playing up against those types of teams. The Milwaukee's, if they're healthy and they can get their stuff together, get to that point. Concerned against those Eastern Conference teams,

but I do think the Sons have as good as chance as anyone to win the West, for sure. Yeah, I think the teams that have like that physical, defensive kind of continuity and like, meaning just like time and reps and familiarity with each other, but then also like physicality switching, that guys that can really switch at the level of ball screens. Like that's something that the Celtics,

now, Katie didn't seem like he was right and totally right the playoffs last year, but that was something. They just blitzed him all the time. And it was one of the few times physically. And that's something to watch too. You know, if he comes back and maybe he's 85, 90%, you know, and they get up against, that's something about Denver that's different from years past,

is that they've shored up some of that stuff, you know, like Bruce Brown, KCP, Aaron Gordon. I mean, they have some, like, guys that can, switch, guys that are quick. I don't know. I think this is a segue, I guess, to some of the things the other teams in the West did. But Phoenix, obviously, is the big boulder that fell in the lake. I mean, it made it the biggest splash.

But it's, I'm excited as hell to watch it. I know that. We'll get back to the Nets at some point. We'll get to them in the rapid fire. But there was a lot more that happened in the trade world in the NBA. But one of the biggest things is another big storyline. is just the makeover that the Lakers had. I think they got a lot of addition by subtraction.

They got rid of Wester Westbrook, who they really wanted to get. Also, quick side-knows, this first time I'm potting since I saw the LeBron game, and I'm sure me and Roger will get into that a lot on Monday. But one of the biggest things, it was one of the oddest games that I've seen in a while, because obviously you had the celebration of LeBron,

but because there were so many eyes on the Lakers, you saw all their flaws and just how disappointing of a team they are. and just how much dysfunction that they have in their locker room. You know, Russell Westbrook, he goes for 27, but it's like an angry 27 where he's like very isolated from the group. He's not wanting to come out of games. Which is off brand for him, man. It's off brand for him to get, you know, a 27 that's a compartmentalized from the team. It's really weird.

I just thought that was really inconsistent. Exactly. But it was just bad juju all around. And while I don't know if DeAngelo Russell will like solve all their problems, I think this was just like a white flag overall for the Lakers in terms for this season. But it was a chance for them to get better long term, which is probably I think the best course of action considering how their year is gone and how we probably thought that the year was going to go. Let's get LeBron to the record. Let's try to just keep him and AD as healthy as possible going into the summer. And when we have all this cap space and then we can go figure.

What do you think about the Lakers trade deadline? Yeah, the long-term thing is the question here because if you look at the distance between the teams in the West, let's see the Lakers are sitting at 25 and 30 and they're behind, even to get to the eighth spot, they'd have to move ahead. Yeah, Oklahoma, Utah, Portland and Golden State. The Lakers are just playing poppies ever since they went to the finals, right?

They're just doing just to get enough to get to the plan. That's just been their goal. Playing poppies. Wow, what a label. that Logan slapped on them there. Yeah, like, they did make some good moves. And I saw something fun. I was joking with somebody about, like,

I saw on Rachel Nichols on her social media. She said, the tag for their segment was like, you know, was this the moment talking about the ceremony? Like, was this the moment that like, that ruined the Russell Westbrook era? I would, in L.A., I would argue that the moment they traded for him, it was like they ruined everything.

Like, you just don't. He had reached for me a point where you just don't trade for him at all. and I think that you have to kind of just accept, you know, take your medicine, you screwed that up. It was not going to work. Sometimes the public, you know, we're not as dumb as we seem. Like I think on paper that reek, like it wasn't going to work. And, you know, Pat Bev and Russell Westbrook on the same team together is just,

that's so dissing and it gives me a headache. Like I got off the Gravitron just now. But I think the moves that they made, you go and look. I mean, I think that from just from a start, starting point. I'm on record as being like a huge Jared Vanderbilt fan. I always have been. He's going to give them crazy switchability, not like off the charts, but he can at least like stunt onto all five positions. He's heavy on four and five. He's strong. He doesn't need the ball. He's a decent passer. And then you get Malik Beasley, who is going to be able to just hang back and be himself.

He's going to be able to just score and shoot the ball, which is what he does. And you imagine him spacing. And I think if AD can get back and get right, which is something that I've said, I don't even know how many billions of times at this point, but it's a good construct for Beasley, you know? He's always kind of been below, his head's been below water defensively throughout his career. And then they added Bamba, man. Bamba is kind of one of the wild card young players in the league.

I don't know. What do you think about the Moose? I think once they made the Rui deal, which was honestly just fell in their laps, right? Like it's just something that he, they're like, oh, he doesn't, he wants to get traded. Okay, Bet, we need to go get him really quickly because he fits within our roster. And you kind of saw this to the changes.

Like they're not, I think the contrast between what the Lakers did and what the Sons did is that the Lakers are getting ancillary pieces right now, which is what you kind of need to be a fully capable championship team. What I saw from those roster moves is, okay, we have LeBron and AD. We still believe in that tandem as a duo. So what we're going to do is we're just going to get the supplementary. pieces around them because that's what they were missing over these last few years. Let's just be honest, man. And if there's anything that we've known from this super big three era is that you, the thing that you need to supplement stars is what you've always need, which is supplementary

pieces. And the Lakers just have not had that. A lot of that has to do with the Russell Westbrook trade, which was just just insane in hindsight. It's just going to, it's, I can't wait for 10 years from now to where we dissected fully and we really get a full bit of grasp. of how bad of a deal that was for so many different types of legacies, right? But, man, Russell Westbrook was bad.

I'm sorry, I'm going to go into quick hands on how bad Russell Westbrook was this season, dog. I saw him in Boston, that Boston game a couple weeks back. I was in a building for that. And just the sheer fact that he's going to be off the team is going to be a net positive for this roster. Because it's not going to be the everyday rust beat

of how is Russ feeling? How do we get Russ on the same page with us? And we're not even talking about the basketball side of this, right? But we're talking about just the general maintenance of what Russell Westbrook needed to have on that roster. They don't have to deal with that anymore. And I think it was interesting. I think House of Highlights posted up a video. I forgot.

I don't know where this game was, but it was after a game where LeBron is in the locker room and he says, yo, we got to go get one. We got to go get a go get. get greedy. We just got a win. Let's go get greedy. I believe, if I remember, it looked like Sacramento, if I remember the locker room correctly, but it was like, let's get greedy. And then, and then Russ goes, who's also a very strong alpha personality. No, let's just have fun. Let's just have fun. No. And so that just kind of shows you the disconnect in that roster, just like just the maintenance of dealing with a Russell Westbrook. I remember like after that, it was just weird

vibes at the end of that tenure with the Lakers. It was just, I remember, and I'm not sure, I'm sure this is out, but I remember when I was at that Celtics game, I'm in the, you know, Celtics locker room, just, you know, seeing what's up. I don't go in there often.

And I walked out, Russell Westbrook is fully clothed, fully showered outside of the Celtics locker room, just sitting down on a FaceTime, right? Mind you, in the other room, LeBron and AD are pissed because of how that game ended and rightfully so, right?

Meanwhile, it's just a juxtaposition of a guy like Westbrook who was smiling and happy and then a great mood after one of the worst losses of LeBron James's career because those are my words. Those are LeBron's words of what he said. And that just showed the disconnect between Russell and the rest of the Lakers. And the fact that that is out of there will be a. net positive. Like, I don't know what the Lakers are going to be. I don't know how they're going to be going forward, but at least I think that they're going to be better off because they don't

have to deal with the everyday maintenance and storyline that was Russell Westbrook over these last few years. Yeah, you can't underestimate how much, like, it's hard enough to be a good team in the NBA, like, and then you can't, you just can't underestimate how much of a mental toll that takes, like to, like you said, you can't even get to the table to, think about yourself as like a bat like a functioning basketball team if like it just eats up so much it eats up so much of your like uh like i always use the comparison bandwidth yeah your bandwidth your CPU usage you're just like damn why can't my computer run it's because i'll have 80 000 google chrome tabs open that's like are you are you an 87 tabs guy because i could be an 87 tabs guy if i really if i if it just if i'm just left to my own devices yeah my my wife was teasing me about how many tabs i had open and i was just like i was like well i got

I've got to have this tab. I've got to have this tab. I'm kind of like a hoarder. I'm like, I can't part with this, you know? It was like, we moved my grandma one time. And then we were like, hey, grandma, I don't think you need this wooden sign with a bunny rabbit on it for Easter where the ears had fallen off.

She's like, no, I need that. No, that's kind of how I am with tabs. So the Lakers had hell of tabs is what you're saying. Basically, I think they had way too many tabs open trying to figure out how to keep their thing together. And I was just thinking about, again, it reminds me of, do you get on Reddit very much? You were going on Reddit. Reddit guy? Absolutely not.

Okay. I like Reddit. The streets are not, the Reddit streets are not fans of Logan Murdoch, so I'm just chill and I just kicked out. I just let us dip from that, that world. They're hard on everybody, man. I mean, I get shit on there. Everybody gets shit on there. That's just kind of the way it goes. But if you go, I was on the main feed one day, and I remember this, this is the most random comparison I'm about to make. They recommend things to you that maybe you wouldn't necessarily click on. And I got click. One of them on there was like a wine, it was like a wine subreddit. I clicked on it and it was like somebody was asking,

when does pink Zinfandel go bad? And I just was like, I don't, this is hilarious. I mean, I've had pink symphintel here and there, you know, at a wedding or something. And one of the first comments on there was when it goes into the bottle. And I laughed really hard about that because, you know, wine people were kind of judging that. But it made me, I just now thought, I was like, this was bad when it went into the bottle. It wasn't going to work. This was like a, it was a non-stop.

starter. They tried. They took a risk. But this is kind of the, these are the margins that you play in with superstars sometimes, especially floor raising superstars. I've talked a lot about this. Like, Luca is always, and LeBron has too, when you're so good as a player that you can't fully be bad, like everywhere you go, you make the team this level of good. You're never, you're not, you're not going to have as many opportunities to add like super young talent. And this was a risk they took and it just didn't work. I do think the Bamba thing is interesting, though, especially even if just for long term. Talk me into the bomba.

Talk me into the bomba thing because I really, really, really hate just like potential guys. I don't like it. I don't like seeing it. Like the wildcars just drive me crazy, even though like I have a certain affinity for most of them. But like talk me into, talk me into the Moamba. Can you just, like you can't stand that you need certainty. Like you need some more like you're annoyed by the flakiness of it.

Is that what you mean? Like is, does it cause you stress? After a few years I do get annoyed by the like, okay. So on one hand with Mo Bamba, after this many years and you don't like just become that guy, you wind up just being who you are in that instance. Now, like on the other side of that, I do love early flightiness, right? Like when you're 19. And like Jordan Poole is a really great example of that, right? Like just a guy that just figured it out.

I like the overall just figuring it out. And I just don't. I think Mo Bamba is who he is at this point, right? That's my fear. So that's why I'm asking talk me into, to Mo Bamba. All I can talk you into is thinking that it's interesting because I can't talk you into the insert. I can't.

I mean, I can't do it. It's like, I can talk to you into it being interesting. That's all. Okay. He's been, the one thing to consider,

he's been with them since 2019. The Orlando has been in an ass. I'm doing a video about this right now and I can, luckily I can edit Mo Bamba out of it. I don't feel like doing that part of it. It'll save me a little work. But for the last five years, they've been in an asset acquisition phase

that has really not made much fucking sense at all. Like in terms of like building a basketball team because they're just like, we're going to throw a big old dart trying to find a big old dude. It's the process if they don't get in B or Ben Simmons.

It's essentially what's going on in Orlando. Basically. Well, it's exactly what they did in Milwaukee. They just kept picking these dudes that really didn't totally fit together until they found one. Then they're like, all right,

now we're going to build a basketball team. Which I think makes sense in the aggregate, though. I do make sense that makes sense if you don't have a bona fide star and you just haven't picked a bona fide star in that instance. Like, I'm not opposed to it. I just want to put that out there. Like, I think that that can be an effective strategy and it has been for some teams. Yeah, it has. I mean, it worked for the bucks. Look at them now. They, I mean, they hit on it.

I mean, it's one way to do it. It's just that I've called them the crowded elevator for the past few years. It's like Aaron Gordon was out there running a bunch of picking rolls and stuff. And it's like there had no spacing. They had no smaller ball handler. They had no movement in their offense. And they just had a bunch of big dudes. When they brought in Wendell Carter Jr., it was just like, all right, here's another guy for Bama to compete with. Boa Boll Bha has a big resurgence. Okay, that's at Mo Bamba's expense. His efficiencies, if you just want to go by, like, I still think that he could be a decent, you know, room protector. I still think that he has potential to be like a spacer.

And he's still, I mean, he's 24 years old, which, you know, I thought he was like maybe a year younger than that. But at the very least, I think it's a good thing to kick the tires on and take a flyer on. I don't think it's a wild flyer by any chance, by any stretch. I mean, he could be a backup big at the very least for them. So I think it's a good move for them. Speaking of taking flyers, the Detroit Pistons traded for James Wiseman, which is probably the ultimate flyer at this point. We can just say it right now, probably a bust.

He is a bust at this point. I mean, he's 21. Are you ready to throw it? Yeah, I'm going to let you cook on this because you've seen the more. this up close than I have. But I mean, yeah, the bus. At this point, at this very point, and I'm not saying that I'm not,

this is not going to be on him forever, at least for his sake, I hope not. At this very point, I think people are considering him a bust, for sure. Now, I don't believe what the, and this is just my stream of consciousness as I'm thinking through this deal. And I'm sure I have more succinct thought process on this, you know, as the days go by and more stuff comes out. And we learn more about what the warriors,

decision making is. But with Wiseman, I don't think that Wiseman necessarily got a fair shake in a lot of ways, because if you think about it, if you were put a James Wiseman on any other team or in any other situation or what a normal top five pick has to go through, I think he would have been more successful. I do think that. I really do. And I think part of me is the reason why, like, I won't say long term. He has a potential not long term to be a bust and could be a really good basketball player at one point. And, you know, he could, he still has time in his career to reach all the goals that he wanted to reach. And that's why I think it's, I'm happy that he is in Detroit, because Detroit allows for him to have the infrastructure that he, that more that you would want

for a younger guy. I think the Warriors did right by him sending to, to, to Detroit. and a place that I really like with a lot of guys that are, you know, similar to Orlando, just a lot of guys that they drafted. They do have, you know, Cade. They do have these guys. But they're trying to build something at this point. And they don't necessarily have their identity net. So for a young guy like James Wiseman, he can kind of carve out his own lane and get that

infrastructure and play without pressure, man, because to be honest, like the warriors aren't a normal situation for any young guy. if, if, if, uh, wise men were with the Houston Rockets, no one would give a damn about, you know, if he is, um, has to be the next franchise guy. Uh, but I do think from the warrior's side, I mean, I mean, they were pretty much out on Wiseman, you know, after, I think after after, after about last season. When it didn't work out, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were out on him at that point. And when he didn't, I think the only way that wiseman would have figured it out and would have been a Golden State Warrior

beyond this trade deadline is if he would have took Kavana Looney's spot to start this season and was averaging a good 10 and 10. That was the best case scenario where he's actually a factor. But he wasn't even close to because he wasn't even close to taking Kavanaugh-Luny spot. Kavanaugh

is entrenched in that role and whatever he is. But when you you want a young guy to be able to take that baton from a Kvon Luni, who is a warrior's legend, but let's be real, is not what you think of a starting center in this league, as great as Kavana Luni is.

And you want that young guy to be able to take the baton from that. And when he didn't do that, there was no way that the Warriors were going to bring him back. He was too expensive in the next couple of years. And they just didn't have time to waste. They didn't have any more time to waste. They banged on their draft pick for that time, and that was Jordan Poole.

That's somebody they can build around. And that goes to the argument to the two-tier system. They still have Moody on the roster. They still have Cominga on the roster. both players that they really, really love and can really do some things. And then, you know, they got, they got Gary Payton a second who was honestly, I mean, I know in the aggregate, it doesn't look like the best, like most sexy deal or whatever. But it reminds me a lot of, it's like one of those deals where, remember when, when Derek Fisher went back to the Lakers?

And I'm not comparing them like as players per se, but I'm talking about in the locker rooms. where they really miss Gary Payton in that locker room. They really, really missed him. And they missed his defense. The Warriors this season, they had old guys and they had young guys. They didn't have middle guys who have relationship with the old heads and the youngans like Juan Tiscano Anderson did last year. Like Gary Payton, the second did last year, to where they can help bridge that gap. And, you know, the Warriors were a need to have.

some harmony. I think Gary Payton really provides that. Now, I'm really just hesitant. I think that with the moves that the Sons made way Denver is going and Steph's latest injury, I think you can kiss those those title wishes, those back-to-back title wishes goodbye at this point. I think you can. I just think that the, I don't know if the warriors are at this point and it's early, but I just don't see it basically on the way that they've been playing and how inconsistent they've been. Sorry, Ben Cruz. I know that Ben Cruz is on the call at this point and he's, he's pretty much crying at this point about what's going on with the Warriors and how much they fall in grace. But like, I think that this is one of those years. Similar to the Lakers where they're building for, okay, this just wasn't our

year. Next summer, we go kick, we go kill it. And I know that the, the Warriors are not going to necessarily admit this at all. But this is probably the best case scenario for him in this end. Okay, hopefully we have a good playoff showing. We got our guys. Let's see what the summer holds, see what we can do, and then get back for next season, because this is a, this is a championship thinking roster. This is what they do. And they're going to look a lot different next year than they did this year. And so I think they're just trying to, we'll see, and we'll see where they go.

And I'm sure I'll be getting some calls in Texas and some look at when I get to the arena next time I go. But I do think that this is a, they are building something for the future. and I think that they're trying to sustain it and one of the most uncertain times in Warriors' recent history. Yeah, the Gary Payton edition, I think, was important, you know, if they were going to recover any of that moment in which you seem to be extremely skeptical about. I mean, it seemed like one of those things where when somebody leaves a company

and then you go to pick something up and you're like, oh, who normally does this? And they're like, oh, Gary did that. It was just like, yeah, I mean, he was a guy who fits, He fits their system because he's a great cutter, as we know. He's one of those guys that can be like an inverted screener. Like he can super athletic, obviously really helpful defensive player, maybe take some pressure off of Steph in that way. I mean, I just think that it makes a lot of sense.

And I liked what RJ was saying about RJ Richard Jefferson on TV about saying like, don't settle. If you know what you do well, like take the money because the Warriors were like, you know, they end up crawling back to him basically. like he went and got his money and he knew he bet on himself and it made sense. Yeah, I like that move. What did you think about the rumors that they were kind of really, really going after O.G. Anobi, did you get any kind of, were you hip to how real or unreal that that chatter was?

I think it was real. I mean, obviously, I'm not going to go against Shams. I mean, he's locked in. He knows what's up. I think it was real. And the reason why I think it was real, one, because Shams put it out there. And two, because O.G. Anovi is.

a perfect wing for the Warriors current situation. You can hit threes, can play really good defense, and he just fits. He's a good dude. He's one of those types of players, and he would fit perfectly within that roster.

And honestly, ever since, you know, Andre Aguadala left, or Andre Guadala, not left, but when he left the first time, they were missing that wing, that extra wing that can do a little bit of everything.

Now, he's not Andre Aguadala skill-wise. I don't think he can run the all. offense necessarily the way that and the way in the Scotty Pippin like way that Andre Iguada could but I mean like a point guard inclination right like the exactly Iggy Iggy Iguada and Pippin both have that not OG is like not quite I don't know if he's ever OG's not there I don't think he's there but he can hit threes and he can play play defense and that's the type of things that you need you need the warriors love those six eight guys that are long and athletic that's they just love that they can switch on everything just

the old school way that they usually do it. Even last season, right? Where they at times went extremely small in the postseason and won because of it. And, you know, with the three-point shooting, they had the defenders. I think that's the roster that they kind of want to build up on. And if they can, I mean, I know that they would really want to add you O.G. Ananovi on their team because that's what he provides for them, a guy that can hit threes that is honestly seen a lot.

You know, he's still a young guy, but has seen a lot. it's been in this league for a bit, hit big shots in the playoffs. That would have been a perfect addition to this Warriors team. But I think they're slow and steady. I think if they would have got an LG and Anobie, I think that that would have,

I think we'd be having a different conversation in terms of where they're going. Yeah, yeah. I think that, I think that, you know, that's going to be something like, ah, we could have got him at the deadline. We should have made time to go get him. And we'll see how that, what comes of that.

Yeah, I wonder how that would have affected their two timeline, would apply. I mean, the salaries obviously don't match because, you know, OG's making, you know, 17.3. I wonder if you would have had to have, I mean, I'm sure they would have asked for comminga. That's probably be the person that they would have, that the rafters would have come after if that deal was going to go down. I would assume, right, wouldn't you think? But here's the thing, if you're the warriors, you don't necessarily, like one more year, Kaminga. Like, comminga is doing, is playing really well at a rapid pace and getting a lot better. He's growing

really, really fast. Um, is it as fast as the warriors need him to. Uh, ultimately. to get to a title, we'll see. But he's been doing well. I think CJ put out that he wanted to go with a... Masayu Ziri did want Kaminga. You don't have to do. If you love Kaminga the way the Warriors do, that makes total sense why they wouldn't have an asking price

and wouldn't take Kaminga in the deal. They just think the world of him. And also, one of the other things, Bob Myers doesn't like to make drastic trades at the deadline. He doesn't, which would explain why, you know, he traded Wiseman in service or of another deal, right?

Like he didn't take anything back. He doesn't like to, Bob Myers doesn't like to trade guys in season and mess up roster construction in season. I think the last time he, it was a real big roster move in that way.

I mean, you could make the, it was Andrew Wiggins, but before that it was like Steve Blake, right, where you do it in season. And the Steve Blake one was in 2014 when they were trying to make a playoff push. And then, um,

To get Andrew Wiggins, that was in a season where they just needed to get Andrew Wiggins. They weren't trying to win a title necessarily. But overall, Bob Myers doesn't like to trade in season. So I wasn't really surprised by that, by him not trying to get OG at the end of the deal. But OG would have been great for this roster. The Warriors are in a weird place, man, overall. They're just in a weird place where, you know, they, thank goodness for their sake that they got the title last year. Because I think the writing is on the wall right now.

There's going to be some changes in this off season. There just has to be to kind of make sure that you can't go continue to go with this type of group. We'll see, man. I'd like to see them die on the battlefield, not literally, but I'd like to see them get a chance to put up a fight like they did kind of in 19. I don't know. It's going to be a brutal playoffs. The West got wild. Tune in every Thursday into a payday with TNT Thursdays on FanDuel Sportsbook.

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I mean, well, I think the obvious one is you could say there's probably one of these in here where there's a pick is a pick went somewhere that is going to end up being a good player. I mean, we always tend to underestimate that. I mean, I don't know that there's one that is like a player with significant like upside got moved that like that's younger that makes me that moves the needle for me. There's some like off the radar trades that I think could help the teams in subtle ways. I actually really like Josh Hart to the New York Knicks. He's a player that if you looked across the landscape of the league, like a guy that fit the bill of like can shoot it a little bit, can play off the ball,

as Stout can play some defense, could shore up a rotation. He was one of the few guys that was like available, you know, that could be had. And it's something that the Knicks really need. They need, you know, you get another, the cliche thing will be to be like, okay, well, here's another Villanova guy.

in here. Them, they had a run where they were just producing those types of players that could fit into those movement systems. They could also defend Switch and things like that. I like that move. And I also think Mike Muscala to Boston is something that we shouldn't totally overlook. I think he's a guy who can space. That team can protect him defensively.

Like he's good enough defensively. Like he'll probably get attacked in the playoffs. But they are good enough. Their coherence is good enough defensively to, probably protect them a little bit, but I like that move too for him, just to add them another wrinkle that I assume they thought they were going to get from Gallinari because I know there were reports that they were thinking about moving Gallinari. What about you? Did you see one that you thought was kind of sneaky good? Oh, well, I did like to, I did like to pick the pickup

of Banguiskala and Boston, just for the simple fact that that's a deal that you do when you're a great team, you know, you have finals aspirations. You just get an extra little thing and an extra little pick. I think the biggest thing, the sneaky good thing that, you know, that I like is maybe I'm maybe not the sneaky thing that I like, but I'm just really intrigued by Brooklyn's hall of picks, right? Like, I'm just really intrigued about what they do with that because I remember the last time they were in this situation and they turned out pretty well, right? Where they have all these picks. They find these type, these just guys. Last time it was the, remember was DeAngelo Russell. Those, that Brooklyn Nets team is just, I think, in a few years and like down the

line. We're just going to look back as like, oh, we just love that team. I don't know why we love that team so much, but we loved them. They were great. We love rag tag. We love rag tag that we know isn't going to win big, but they get like a first round playoff. They were the fun team. And I'm curious to see what Brooklyn does with this set of picks because they have, they've shown while that they can't manage superstars very well, they've shown that they can build a team suitable enough to attract people and also be good or just be good just continue to be good teams in a solid group um i'm curious to see what brooklyn does in the aftermath of all of this and also if they get another shot at you know getting another top tier guy like down the line like how you know of the

caliber of kevin and karee this is probably just something that i see that maybe a lot of other people see but like stars see how franchises treat other stars right yeah and i don't we've also, it's a very nuanced and convoluted thing that happened in Brooklyn, but by and large, they're going to listen to what Kair, stars are going to listen to what Kairi and Kevin said about that organization more than how they feel in terms of what they see, with their eyes with the organization. And right now, I mean, other stars, and I'm not saying the league and everything, what they see is, oh, it didn't work out because these people talk, you know, they talk, they say, oh man it didn't work out they're going to hear Kevin be like oh that was that I did that was a shit show

and Kyrie saying they disrespected me yeah um they're going to see that and I'm curious to see I think Brooklyn can get to a place where they have a solid team but I'm going to be curious the next time or if there's going to be a next time for them to get you know go and get those big stars of the caliber of a Kyrie or a Kevin Durant I'm sure they'll always attract things because they're a New York based team I think they'll always be. be able to track talent, but of the Hall of Fame level talent, I'm going to be curious where they are in the meetings in the next few years to come. Do you think that Kevin and Kyrie, though, I mean, I think I could say this even, you know, conservatively and mildly. Put it mildly,

those are different dudes. We all know that. Kevin, Kevin has had his things everywhere he's gone. Kairi has two. Do you think that affects? Do you think among their peers, are they seen the same way. We talked about like the peer to peer thing being different from on the outside. Well, I will say this. I think that both of those guys, like while they have been put over the coals, if you, for lack of a better term, over these last few years, I think that's more of a media thing and a media, a narrative thing, because I do know this, Kyrie and Kevin are probably like among basketball players in the league or probably have more respected. voice than you might think.

Because every NBA player that I talk to about Kyrie or any person that is ancillary or near an NBA player, all love him by and large. That's interesting. Now, they might say like, oh, that was a shit show

and what the fuck. But they tend to, like, you know, look at any for the most part, like, you know, I always see the best indicator of how a player is respected in the league is like in the immediate aftermath of after games,

right? Where you're doing the handshakes and you're kicking it. And you're just, you know, you're doing the good game. I'll see you next time. Oh, I'm in town here. Let's get up right here. You always see that in after the games. And you always see that with Kyrie, like especially with stars, right?

They always go and say what's up to him, no matter what his standing is, you know, universally. Players usually respect his opinion. And the same with Kevin, honestly. Like a lot of these, you know, behind the scenes like, I think Kevin is known as just like the cool big homie to a lot of these guys, right? Like when you go to Team USA, he's a laidback dude. He's the guy that you go and you talk to. He's in on all the same music and joints that you like.

You know, he's into all of that type of stuff, right? Like he's into all the stuff. And he's also in the culture in a way that like a lot of these young dudes respect and like because he's a one of the, of the superstars, he is one of the ones that sees a lot of guys early and really respects them. Yeah. And so I think that that goes a long way. I think that he's going to be welcomed in that Phoenix locker room. And I think that his word is going to hold true when you talk about it, fair or not, by the way, right?

Because I'm not saying that I'm not absolving them of anything that they did or didn't do in Brooklyn because they did that. They did run amok. It was a shit show. But when you talk about the NBA players and the people that will hold them. their word or will hold Kevin and Kyrie's word in higher regard. I think they will listen when you think about what they have to say about Brooklyn

and going forward. That's why I'm concerned. I hope that Brooklyn, you know, for their sake, finds a star and they do have a good shout at this just for the sake of basketball sense, right? But they, however you want to slice it, you know, it didn't work out.

And there can be a pitcher painted from the player's perspective that, yo, this wasn't a good look. I didn't have a good time here. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that always fascinates me. And I know those guys are just like, they're respected in terms of dudes, dudes also just want to be them. Like I, you know, so many dudes, they just want to be Kyrie. I mean, a lot of the, a lot of the individual skill level stuff is just so like, that's the stuff that is like, that resonates the most, I feel like with like younger players and things like that. And that's a huge just sort of. I mean, like, up until this year,

John Morant wore Kyrie Irving shoes. I know. John Morant's one of the most. people that younger dudes want to be. I just feel like he's kind of in that guy. Also older dudes love John Morant too. He's in that place. But like in terms of respect, you could see like how much respect Kyrie gets in this league from players.

And that's something that if you're on the outside, it's like, you know, most people yell. I think you nailed it. I mean, I've never talked to Kyrie a day in my life. I know everything that I consume is second, third hand, you know,

so it's like I, and I just see stories and things. But, you know, that stuff always fascinates me. What garners respect. And yeah, It'll be interesting to see that they left them at the fourth seed. I know that's kind of a joke at this point because they're not going to be the same team going forward.

I don't know. Do you think Brooklyn's going to like precipitous fall or what do you think their record's going to do from here to the end of the season? As much as it can. Cam Thomas is going to be getting these motherfucking shots up. All right. We're going to get some. We're going to get some. My favorite time of the league.

That's always true, by the way. And it's always been true. What you just said about Cam Thomas. He's going to get some motherfucking shots up. That's Cam Thomas. that is yes that is a direct quote from my my my my homey nick fredale shout out to nick fredale but he's gonna get some motherfucking shots up and that's probably my favorite point i love this is my favorite thing in the league uh like one of the things that we don't normally talk about more the gunner

who is playing on a bad team trying to get a deal and trying to keep his his just just trying to stay in the league and cam thomas is about to be getting shots up you're going to be seeing these wild stat lines you've already seen them but i just think there's going to be more Carm Thomas stat lines going into the backstretched of the season. But honestly, like, the Nets, they don't want to win anymore. Not this season. They're done. They kind of bring the white flag.

They're trying to start from zero. They're trying to rebuild. The record right now, it doesn't really matter. I mean, they might get a playoff sea, but I don't think that they're really wanting or counting on it. Did I disrupt your rapid fire thing? I know we went on some side roads there. Not at all. I was making it very rapid.

It was sort of. Where do the Timberwolves go from here? is a question that I really do have. Like, it's, it's fascinating what's going on ever since the, I feel like they're just, they're admitting that, you know, the, I think that they're admitting it. They've probably longer admitted the good bear trade was just what it was. It was, we talked about the Westbrook trade earlier and just the ramifications of that, but just how bad a trade was in the moment and just how progressively worse it got as the season

going on, the Go Bear trade to Utah, I mean to Minnesota because it was just completely unnecessary. You know, it was just completely unnecessary. Anything, every time I see the Minnesota Timberwolves, I just think, you know, just tear it all down and build around Ant.

It's very obvious here. Why aren't we doing this? Like, where are the timber wolves in your eyes? Where do you think you want them to go? Where should they be going? What should they be doing right now? What the hell are they doing right now? I mean, I like the point that I think Barrier made in our Slack

just that this was probably, I mean, the Conley move was probably closer to what they should have done to begin with. I like Conley's presence in Minnesota. If it's only for his presence, I think that's a good thing for them. No, I mean, I don't know, like starting over wise, I guess that, you know,

Delo's out of there. Delo at times he got a little bit better. At times, I think he was in the way of Ants development. Like, I think that he was not the ideal player to play next to Ant, if you think about somebody who has the inclination to be on ball. And I feel like his sense of himself has kind of shifted probably in a positive way. We'll see how that we're playing with LeBron is going to be the ultimate test for that. But yeah, I mean, Vanderbilt was a guy that they probably should have hung on to,

I understand why they didn't. I don't know that they're going to like totally, totally start over, but they have some time. And it's still young. I think that his upside as a playmaker is pretty strong. You know, we've seen his shooting off the balance has been inefficient. I think that'll probably come around as he learns to pick the shots better. Taring it down, though, would mean, I mean, do you think Carl Anthony Towns? That's a big question.

Are they a duo for the future? I don't believe so. I don't believe it. I think that the height of what you could see from, I think that their peak, honestly, and honestly, I reserve the right to be wrong. I'm just, but I think of their peak was that playing last year. I just didn't. Like, and even when watching them in the, in the postseason last year, and they had a good showing. But they completely undid as an organization all the momentum that they had from that postseason run when they made that trade.

And I think that whenever I watch the Timberwolves now, I'm just like, yo, man, just give Anthemth the ball. Let him figure it out. He's really good. I think he's going to be a really great player. Figure out how to get that dude the best. because I hate seeing Ant play second fiddle to Carl Towns. I just don't like it. It's not fun.

Carl is weird to play with period, I think, just because he's in his personality, I think. You were talking about, like, guys that have, like,

alpha personalities that you have to, like, balance in a weird way. I just feel like Carl is, like, he's always had this odd thing to balance. I don't even know what the type of personality would be right to put with him.

Like, I'd heard that he was an interesting character when he was here, when he was at Kentucky. And like, I've always long said that like when they traded for Jimmy Butler way back, I was like, they don't know who Carl is.

I was like, because that was a terrible move. I was like, if you know who he is as a person, I'll just be interested to see where he goes from here. And, you know, the thing about the trade that you were saying,

Seart and I were talking about on our show on Tuesday. The answer. Yeah. We were talking about things that motivate teams to make midseason moves. And we were like, I just in the flow of thinking about this, I may, I thought of something that I was calling hump proximity,

which is like teams, like what the decisions they make give you an idea of like how close they think they are to getting over the hump. And like Minnesota, I think was right there where they needed to make some kind of a tweak, but they made like a personality changing tweak. I think that was just the wrong move, man. Like,

and I think you're right. It'll be depressing if they look back years from now and they think, man, like that series was the thing that was the little piece. peek at our path and building something. But there's a lot of time, man. There's a lot of time. Hopefully they just don't repeat the mistake they made with Gobert. The important thing that you need to have as a front office person is to have a pulse on your organization and a pulse on the players in your organization. And I think that, and this could just be, because, you know, like the

change in ownership, there's just a lot of changes that are going on in Minnesota right now. So I get it. It's very fluid. But the people that are making the decisions in Minnesota, don't seem to have a good feel for just what the team needs. Like, you get a video, like, for instance, you see Anthony Edwards making fun of Gobert, right, and just like roasting him. You don't go, clearly he doesn't have the respect of this man and the way that you need as a teammate. The answer is not to mortgage the future and put hella picks

towards getting a man that I don't even know if you're the guy that could be your franchise star respects, right? Like that's just that's just not being on the same wavelength as what your team is, right? And I think that Minnesota has done that time and time again where they just don't have a feel of like who's going to go well with certain guys and if this is going to work. And they don't build that infrastructure. And we'll see what happens with the new ownership going down, going down in the next few years. But like, it's just, it's, it's, it's, And every time I see Minnesota, it's just disappointing because I don't know about you, Kyle. I love Minneapolis.

I think Minneapolis, if they had a winner, would just be amazing. I think it would be great. I think it would be so awesome to see the Timberwolves be a winner. And I just think that every time I watch the Minnesota Timberwolves, I just see a lot of low expectations for a city that deserves better. I've never been there. But, I mean, you saw how excited they got just about a little bit of success, which is going to happen. You know, if you haven't had it, if you haven't tasted water, you've been watering the desert, you haven't had a drop of water.

It's going to taste pretty fucking good, that first drop that you get. I understand all that. But, I mean, did that not land? We hear. No, we, that landed. We're dropping, you dropping it. Jake How man is dropping bars out here, y'all. No, I just, I think that account, here's a big thing.

These things don't fit in spreadsheets, I think, with basketball. And these are the things that are hard to quantify, is that, like, you hit it. is the thing that sort of begets accountability, and accountability is the thing that begets good basketball teams. Because if you don't respect somebody, I'm going to be like, and I'm on a team and I know you don't, you're not going to have my back. If I don't like you, if I don't think that you play the game the right well, I'm going to be, when it comes time for me to lay out and, like, sort of cover for you

in a way that overlaps with what I'm supposed to do, I'm like, no, fuck that guy. I'm not going to do that. And on the great teams, like the Warriors, like we saw, like, you know, the teams that have gotten it done, like with Millwall. You see those dudes out there ready to bleed for each other because they respect each other. And the accountability is just huge in basketball, man. And when you see – Like, when you watch some Minnesota Timberwolves, do you think that they will, like, dive on a loose ball for one another that they would just help the helper?

Do you ever see that they're just like a family? Like, I don't see that. That you see some – I always joke about this. I played on losing teams growing up, so I always feel like my team, we used to get our asses kicked. And, you know, like, if there's little fissures of, like, disrespect, those things grow into big chasms. They just do. They do. Like, and that, like, those wounds will fester. And no, I mean, there are times where you watch them and they just look miserable.

That's the big thing. You just watch them. You're like, they're not having a good time. And that's when those things really start to bubble up. And I think you just have to slowly build those things. That's probably where Minneapolis, or where Minnesota is, honestly, because, you know, if you think about Anthony Edwards, I think you hit it. Cultural and personality fits and things like this.

And it's, you know, it's not my place really to tell them what to do. Maybe I should just go ahead and do it anywhere. Screw it. But, like, they need to think about who they're surrounding him with because Gobert and towns both are kind of temperamental. They seem temperamental, at least to me. And I think you need to find somebody that don't totally be beholden to the players at all times. We've seen what that can do to a franchise. If you just, like, you're handcuffed to what a player thinks at all times.

They can run a franchise into the ground. But they need to think about that. Who fits with Anthony Edwards? So long road ahead for the wolves, I think. Okay. So before we get out of here, I'm looking, and this is the conversation. and I wanted to have with you. We texted before this, before this pod.

And I'm looking at the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, got exchanged for this draft pick, this draft pick, right here. What does that say right now about where we are as a league? And what are we, because I think of draft big, I think about just ideas. And I think I made this joke. It's like crypto, right?

Like, it's just like, you know, you don't know what's going to happen. I referenced, in the text, I referenced, I said, this reminds me of the Super Bowl boon of crypto last year, right? Where there's just so much, so many ideas of what's going to take place actually being exchanged, right? And I'm not quite sure what this means for the future because you're just trading away ideas for actual players at this moment. I think that's what I've always felt about trading draft picks. You don't know what they are, and it's just enough to buy time.

Not to say that they're not valuable by any stretch. But what do you think we're going as a league with, you know, all these. What does that say about our league that so many draft picks are getting exchanged at this high of a rate? Well, a lot of them being second rounders, like we said, the thing about like second rounders is that some of these teams have, I've noticed recently, a second rounder has different value to each individual organization. You know, we talk about the Grizzlies a whole lot that they've drafted a lot.

They've got a guy in their starting lineup that was a second round pick. They've got another guy who's drafted 30. It's like teams that scout and really have this down probably are licking their chops the more of these like second round draft picks. And it depends on how much like developmental runway you have too. That's another thing. If you're a team that's like competitive and you in the future, we've seen it the two timeline thing is really really difficult to do and i think it kind of comes back

to building things slowly so that you have you can sort of slowly get those guys acclimated towards what it says about the league i don't know i just think it's moved to the point where that's these are the things that people have to move and and uh it's kind of come down the order of operations to this is what was left uh what's uh i mean do you have any kind of thesis on that asking that question do you what do you think i mean like crypto-wise It kind of reminds me of when Coinbase had that big surge there where like all those, everybody with like any money at all was just like, yeah, yeah, I got a little, I got a couple hundred bucks to throw with this.

I don't know if it's like that, but it's, I got an extra five second round picks to give you. Why not? Yeah. Why not to burn? I think that it's just interesting, right? Because like, I don't know, I don't know if this is like one of those trends. Like, remember, like the NBA is so known for trends. It's such a trendy-ass organization.

a league, bro. One day it's like everybody needs a wing. Then we need to space the floor. Wait, no, but are we going, are we just going back to, you know, having big teams, like the 1920 Lakers, right? Just these tall big teams that could space the floor. What are we going to be? And I'm wondering, is this going to be like just a trend that goes on for the next

couple of years that, and the aggregate doesn't really mean anything of where the game is going? I don't think, like, the teams that win championships, no matter what era, had the best players on the team. Like, that's just really what it was. The best players in the league by and large. And you can, um, and the best players that win championships, it doesn't matter what the system is. They're going to win a title because they're like, Janus is a title contender by himself. That's how good he is. But it's interesting though that it's, that it's, uh, that is a second round picks because second round picks historically have been so easy to get. All you got to do

is just buy one, you know, every, how many times have you said, I mean, I know, I know being on a West Coast and Covering the Warriors when I did. Like, oh, okay, we see this kid Jordan Bell. Let's go, let's go pay the money to go get them, right? And so, like, I wonder what this is going to be, like, how much value now

are second round picks going to have? Or is it going to be like crypto, or it's like, oh, this is just a one-time thing where we just traded hell of picks. I don't quite know what it is just yet and what people want. Maybe it's, maybe it's that the changing of the guard right now because another thing that I've been thinking about,

specifically the names that have been traded during this trade deadline, I'm thinking about a John Wall. I'm thinking about a KD. I'm thinking about a Russell Westbrook, but just names by and large of a different era. And I'm not talking about Katie. Katie has, I'm not disrespecting him.

I'm talking about just like basically, you know, this is a, all of these names were guys that were absolute superstars, five, six years ago. You know what I'm saying? And not to say, and I'm not, I want to be careful because I'm not diminishing KD

necessarily because he is still a top five player in his league. But more I'm just seeing it looking like we're starting the change of the guard where a lot of the, we saw this in the late 90s with, you know, Pat Ewing going on the Sonics, right? Or who am I thinking about, Achim Olajuwon going on the Raptors, right?

But just like these stars going, like are getting. older and older now and now they're getting traded away. And now these young guys, like a Luca, like a John Morant, they're all starting to get locked in on their first big deals. And because of that, like you can't just trade for a John Morant right now. We're not at that point in the league. And so you want to protect yourself and be like, oh, let's go get a pick because that's something that's easy. We can all keep our jobs. And that's something that's easy that we can just sell. let's go get our picks. Let's go get these picks.

Let's go try to build these teams because, you know, we are in a changing in the guard part of the league right now where a lot of these guys that were stars for so long are now about to phase out in the next 10, 15 years. And how do you revamp your league through draft picks? And there's a lot of great drafts coming up. You know, this one specifically would Wimby going to be in a draft. everyone is is is is is is primed for this next era of NBA basketball and so that I think that that's a that's a manifestation of why we always have all these picks because there everyone is

gearing up for this next stage of what the NBA is going to be that was my that's my read on it well I think you're right if it's a changing of the guard and I think it's going to get harder and harder to stay in the league over the age of 30 just because I think that a second the talent level if you compare what talent was there in like 2003 in the second round versus what is there. And another thing, too, is just the spatial shift that happened in basketball. I think that, like, the guys that were in. Are you saying, wait, I want to just get this, like, clear. Are you saying that it's going to be hard for, like, mid-tier guys to stay after 30,

or you mean, like, stars in general? Because I think the stars, I think they're going to be stars, like, generational talent is generational talent. What do you, if they stay healthy enough. Like, Janice is not going to fall over a cliff when he, you know, turns 30. You know what I'm saying? So, like, what do you mean by that point of it? I just think it's going to be sort of like, you know, like a housing crash.

Like, it's kind of like, you know, it maybe is going to affect, it'll affect all classes a little bit. You know, maybe it's going to go down the line. It'll be harder to be like a roster player, obviously. Stars, I think it'll be a little harder. But, you know, overall, I just think that there's more talent entering the league at, like, an exponential rate than ever. And some of that, I think what you're talking about changing the guard is that the guys that entered the league before the spatial shift. Some guys had the skill set to survive, that, you know, they had the sort of the Darwinism to survive and adapt to what was going on. Like, LeBron is air-proof, basically.

We talked about that ad nauseum. But I think that there's just so many guys coming into league year after year. I don't know. I've seen an acceleration on that front. It's something I've just kind of been pondering here more and more lately. but the league, we're just getting, as a species, I think we're getting better at basketball at a crazy, right? That's just my opinion,

because kids are just more skilled when they're younger, and I don't know, I think that pays all the way forward to how hard it is to stay in the league. Yeah, and then we also have the infrastructure now, like guys are getting, becoming, you know, being celebrities and stars and getting ready for the NBA earlier than they have ever been, right? And so we'll see how that goes. Jake, man, this was a pleasure,

but we traded us. We traded 17 second round picks to swap out you and Roger for this, this pod. I'm only saying that because Kerm made me a bet that I wouldn't say it and I said it. So ha, Kerm. Ha. I think I'm probably right on the same level as Raja as a player, I'd say, you know, like more me, more me inflating myself. Just kidding.

I probably couldn't even score on Raja. I'm not even going to play the part where you said you couldn't even score on Raja. I'm just going to play the clip. Hey, Kerm, don't get the clip. Get the clip ready for Roger to hear on Monday. I'm sure Roger's worried about a little chirping cricket like me. I was going to say, you know, I wore the A's hat. I know I came into your house correctly, I think.

You know, I was trying to flatter the host. I wore the A's hat. So do right by me and play him the whole clip. Logan, I would appreciate it. I got you, bud. Man, I think one of the best basketball minds at the Ringer right here, Jay Kyle, man. I love your work, bud.

Make sure you well watch his video essays. I'm a huge fan of them. I always got them on a clip, watching them. I learned so much about the game from you, man. And that has been another edition of our Realwoods trade deadline extravaganza. We'll see you guys Monday. I think Rob will be back. Talk soon.

Tap in. Bye.