The Ringer NBA Show - Kevin Durant vs. Kendrick Perkins. Plus: Russ Returns to OKC but Chris Paul Prevails. | The Mismatch

Episode Date: January 10, 2020

We discuss the overperforming Oklahoma City Thunder and whether they should still consider dealing their desirable players at the trade deadline (1:02), before breaking down the KD vs. Kendrick Perkins Twitter fight that was spurred by Russell Westbrook’s return to OKC (28:46). Finally, we gauge whether the younger Spurs have a chance to reset their season, and briefly re-rank the 2019 rookie class (46:00). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer podcast network. Winging It with Vince Carter and Annie Finberg is back in full swing for its second season. Catch up on recent episodes with guests like Wyclef Jean, who talks about growing up in Haiti, hip-hop as a teacher, and performing with a goat. And you can hear from tennis phenom, Cocoa, on beating Venus Williams at 15 years old. You can listen to Winging It on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Friday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'KeeNit. Connor, A.K. Kevin O. Bomber, A.K. Kevin O. Conflict. Kevin O. Cameron. Kevin O'C. Kavanaugh. Kevin O.

Burnow. What's going on? We had drama last night on the NBA. Oh, my goodness, did we have drama? Let's start with the games, and when we'll get to the off-court drama. There was a huge game last night between the 76ers and the Celtics. We knew that the 76ers were going to be without Joel M. B. as they will be for the distant future, it seems. with bad news coming out on him yesterday, but a very good Sixers win last night. Did you have any big takeaways from watching them without Embedde

but still being able to knock off Boston? Well, with Embed being out for however long it might be, with the finger injury, undergoing surgery for that, Philadelphia is going to have to figure out what they are defensively. and in last night's game against Boston, I'm not exactly sure there's a whole lot to pull from that because you want Philadelphia to have their defense centered around Joe L&B because of the offensive presence that he is.

However, what we did see last night was intriguing, though, with the spacing that they have with Horford playing more at the five and what that provided for the overall offense, it's interesting. But ultimately, though, the Sixers won that game because of their defense. though. They stagnated Boston's offense, especially in that fourth quarter when they held Boston to just 18 points because of their length, because of their versatility, because of their effort, led by Bed Simmons, who was great on that end of the floor and Josh Richardson as well. And Horford had one of his better games overall of the season. So it's intriguing to still see them in game one without Embed still be stellar like they can be on the defensive end of the floor. It's been inconsistent for them, but maybe over this time, they can find some consistency. Well, and the fascinating thing was in that particular game,

if we are drawing from these games to look ahead to what these teams would look like in a seven game series, the question is, you know, you could probably get that Al Horford, you could probably get that Tobias, you could probably get that Ben Simmons. How often do you get that Josh Richardson,

who really was like the Jimmy Butler role and the most productive guy on the floor with 29 points and also, you know, leads a team in assists? you know, he, it was like for the one night, Richardson turns into Jimmy Butler's going to the free throw line 10 times. You know, as I said, he dishes out seven assists. He's got 29 points. Like over the course of a seven game series,

how many times do you get that guy? And do you ever get that guy when everybody's healthy? That's what I wrote about before the season. I wrote about potential breakout players or guys that could swing the fortunes of a team one way or the other. And Richardson was one of the guys, that list because of what he's been the past couple years of Miami. He was

more of a 3-and-D role guy who didn't need to do a lot off the ball with the ball on his hands. Then he got better with the ball in his hands. He got better as a shooter. But last year he sort of plateaued from what he was before and he's still a really, really good player. But this year it was

like, okay, now he can fill Jimmy Butler's shoes and he can be the guy who can take on more of that on-ball responsibility, running more pick and rolls, throwing passes, bracken up assist, as you just mentioned he did last night. So we saw what you want him to be at his best. Whether he can do this consistently or not, probably not just because of the level of shooter he is.

He's not a guy who's going to beat you off the dribble from outside, whether it's deep mid-range or with pull-up threes. He's not a guy who's typically going to get to the basket a whole lot. Boston is sort of lacking in room protection, so that probably helped him and getting to the rim. So for Richardson to do this, he needs to have games like this, but I don't think this is something

that they can rely on with any consistency like you could with somebody like Jimmy Butler. And that ties into one of the issues with like the idea of using Ben Simmons all the time as a screener over the past week, Philadelphia has used him more frequently as an on-ball screener. And that's a way to get him going because he can, he can be like Blake Griffin.

He can be like Draymond Green. as a screener and pick apart defenses. But without that high pick and roll ball handler, like a Kyrie or even like a Cambo or a Dame or Chris Paul, all these guys who are great in the pick and roll, without that player, it limits what the screener can do on the role. And Richardson isn't quite that level that you want. But if he can have more games like this, maybe he gets the respect of the defense, draws more attention, and does open things up for Simmons as a screener or Embed

when he's back. So you need Richardson to play like this. I'm just, I think it's a bit unfair and unrealistic to expect this from him with any consistency. Okay. So it is fascinating that you, you had written about the Sixers and something not being quite right. And they are, they're 25 and 14, but people thought more highly of them. If the playoffs started today, they would be on the road for a first round series. And so people had much higher expectations of that. It is fascinating that right now, These teams have these amazing home records. Milwaukee, 18 and 2 at home. Miami, 17 and 1, Philadelphia. They're 18 and 2 at home. They're 7 and 12 on the road. So they're 5 games under 500 in their road games, yet they have this ridiculous home record. And we know that the two seed is insanely valuable this year because not only are you going to stay away from Milwaukee until the conference finals,

You know, we know that the top six of these teams are extremely good. And so it's not like you have a total buy if you're the one or two seed, but you, you're going to stomp whoever is seven and eight. And once you get to six, especially with Oladipo back, you're going to have a dog fight on your hands if you're between three to six. And so that two seed really matters. And so I'm torn here. The regular season and their record is going to matter.

but we know that we judge everything on playoff success. If they are, by most people's account, a bad matchup for Milwaukee, and they are a bad matchup for the Celtics, does that dissuade you from tweaking too much? Because as they are currently structured, they seem to be a bad matchup for two of the best teams. I don't think it's ever a bad thing to add a shooter,

for this team seeking the shooters that they are I reported yesterday they're in on guys like a Robert Covington and Etouin Moore even like Glenn Robinson is a deep bench option if you're able to get someone like him on the cheap

I don't think it's a negative at all to seek out somebody like that no wherever like it's Avas Burthans from Washington Okay so you're just talking about doing them something small on the margins look I think that's what's realistic that is what is realistically

that's that's what can happen for Philadelphia I threw out the idea in the article of going for somebody like Chris Paul because it touches on what I just mentioned about the impact Simmons could theoretically have as a screener can't happen with Josh Josh Richardson because Boston does this last

night and it's one of the reasons why Philadelphia didn't do it more because Boston's just going to switch the screen you're just going to switch your guy you have on Ben Simmons who's typically going to be a smaller player because he's not a threat to post up and you're going to switch that guy with whoever is guarding Josh Richardson, not a problem and that's what

teams have done and what they would do to neutralize that in a playoff setting. And for Philadelphia, I think adding a point guard like somebody like a Chris Paul, that type of construct or Kyle Lowry would be the ideal because of what it does for Ben Simmons

in the half court, minimizing the need for him to even be a spot-up shooter in the corner, because he can be used as a screener. It adds to what Joel Embed can be, rather than him always being a guy who is on the block or spotting up. If you can use him even more often as a pick and roll screener,

you need Ben Simmons still to spot up. But if you can have MB do that more with a point guard that can create, it opens up everything for what Philadelphia can do as long as that player isn't the liability on the defensive end of the floor, which Paul is not, which Lowry is not. Whether Philadelphia can afford those guys, well, they probably don't have the assets. They probably don't.

They just don't. And that's what makes it unrealistic. But it's something that I think they should be thinking about. I think it's something the Sixers should at least, Sixers fans should be thinking about and how that could change this team. Because imagine a Paul or a Lowry rather than a Horford or rather than a Harris on this roster and what it could do.

Because that's ultimately the flaw with their offense. And that's one of the reasons why they struggle so much in the fourth quarters. historically and why this season projecting forward that concern still exists. And that's what I would love for them to do. But I think it's more realistic that they just end up adding a shooter. Yeah, what's going to be fascinating, Kevin, is while that was a good win last night, how do they look and how good are they in the next maybe several weeks? I mean, there was this hand doctor I saw this video of from NBC Philadelphia.

They brought on this guy who's not the guy doing the surgery. but he was trying to explain it and said, you know, I mean, the guy's going to get cut on and they take the ligament and they put it back where it came from because it's just torn off. And then they insert usually a bone anchor to hold it in there. And he said in a professional athlete, you know, four to eight weeks would be the range where you start looking for him to get on the court would be his guess. And so if that's right, if this hand doctor that was right, it's a long time of playing basketball in obviously a very different way

that they're going to have to play without Joel Embed. And I'll be damned. I mean, the trade deadline is right in the middle of this. So if you do make a trade, whatever you look like with your newly acquired player is going to be radically different

than what you're going to look like when Embed comes back in the lineup because he's your guy. You know, and that's one of the interesting things here because for Philadelphia, obviously the goal here is to win a championship, right? That's the goal. And that's the expectation and it should be when you have two guys like Joelle Embed and Ben Simmons and a Josh Richardson and Al Horford, a Tobias Harris.

This is a team that should be talking about winning a championship. And if it comes in the playoff, let's say over the next however amount of time without Embeddon the court, the Sixers kill it. Let's say they perform at a high level. And you're seeing Ben Simmons and what? is closer to his ideal role. And then Embedd comes back and in the postseason, they lose, they fall flat on their face in the second round of the playoffs.

That conversation about do you have to break up, Embed and Simmons will be escalated. Right now, it's not, I mean, people talk about it, but it's not really a real thing. But if it comes to them in the summer, after seeing Simmons potentially dominate over the next couple weeks, after, if the team were to fail on the postseason with Embed and Simmons, that would be a conversation that happens. And we're a long, long ways away from that. But I think between then and now, there's things Philadelphia can do and should do to minimize the chances that they do fail.

And I think we've been through it a hundred times. Ben Simmons willingly spotting up and shooting from the corner would increase spacing for everybody in that team. If that happens, great. Also, it's important for him to be used more often as an on-ball screener, but it's tough without having a perimeter ball hand. handler and finding that guy as easier to have been done. But then

also adding more shooters surrounding these two not like an average shooter in Embed and a non-shooter and Ben Simmons. There's a lot that needs to change for a team that's already so good. That's really the paradox of watching the Sixers here. They are so good and yet there's still so much wrong.

Well, and you, like now, what was you know, I think a luxury because it wasn't a great fit necessarily and Horford wasn't all that happy with the fit with Embed. If you considered him a luxury rather than a necessity, now he becomes a necessity. And so if you were going to use Horford, you know, in order to stabilize another part that

you think could make you better, well, now that changes. Because like, you're going to need Horford over the course of the next month and a half possibly, maybe two months. Who knows how long the guy's going to be out after he gets cut on his hand. But if you were going to use that piece, like they can't afford to move him without getting somebody big that can do something, you know. So that changes that whole thing too. And, you know, a couple years ago, they went out, remember they played the buyout market. And Bellinelli and Ilysova really helped them just by being guys that stretch the floor, as you were saying.

Like, it doesn't have to be the highest level guy. It's just somebody that fits best in order to stretch the court more. and they're going to be super fascinating over the course of the next month because you could see it go a bunch of different ways. You could see them not being good. And then I could see them playing a different style and still being outstanding with guys doing more, right,

because of the absence of Embed. You know, like I said, the Tobias and the Josh Harrison's and even Horford for that matter. So I don't know what's going to happen with them. I don't know what kind of record they're going to have. I picked them to make the finals in the East before the season, and I would change that now to Milwaukee. But this team still has that potential.

I would still consider them the second best team in the East when they're playing at an optimal level. And then you look at the team that they've defeated three times now this season, three and O against the Celtics. They're another team, like as good as they are, too, they still have their own issues because of just what their offense turns into in the fourth quarters. And part of that is on the defense that the Sixers played.

But part of that is just a negative trend for Boston where they just turn from this motion with movement over the course of the game. And then it just turns into just they're moving, you know, through quicksand in fourth quarters where it's isolations, isolations and no off ball movement. And it just does not work when you don't have an elite permanent scorer.

And Kembo Walker's very good. And sometimes he's great. but he's not a top end perimeter guy. And then with Boston, a lot of the same questions that we can ask about Philadelphia as in what do you do moving forward. With Boston,

the same question arises. Hayward can become a free agent this summer. Jason Tatum will be a year away from getting a max deal in 2021 as a restricted free agent. I don't know if you can pay Kemba and Hayward and Brown and Tatum. That's a lot for those four guys.

And with Boston, the same type of questions come up. Is there a move to be made now proactively, maybe involving Hayward because he can be a free agent this summer in order to add either long-term stability to turn him into parts or to improve the overall team? Because I don't know. Well, he has not been the same. You know this.

He has not been the same. It looked like we were getting old Gordon Hayward back at the beginning of this year. And since he has come back, he has not been that guy. He's had moments, though. He has had some really good games. I know it's Chicago, but he played well against Chicago. He played well against San Antonio this week, the first game in the back-to-back. Hayward is still performing well.

He's not maybe what he was early in the season. He looked like all-star caliber at the beginning of the season. He's still having some really strong games, though. I think Hayward is a lot closer to being back than anybody could have expected after last season. All right. Last night, we also had the Westbrook return to Oklahoma City. They give him a great video tribute. In true Westbrook form, he fueled that with this emotion, and it almost looked like it got him hyped.

You know, I've seen, you usually see guys like break down and cry, you know, and I think everybody was like, hey, is he like, is he going to show emotion? And of course, the answer was no. I mean, his emotion was getting fired up before the game. And then the game starts, and he was obviously super pissed off about. what took place in the game. He played good. Hardin had one of his worst games in a long, long time. And they get run out by this Oklahoma City team who has been very, very good. I mean, Chris Paul has been the best clutch player in the entire NBA. And you know Kev, when all of these games are coming down to the very end of the games in many cases. There's so many games in the last

three to five minutes that are in the balance. He's going and winning these games. for his team regularly. And those are the ones in the balance. And then like even something like last night, it's not in the balance. And he's played great in the game. You referenced Billy Donovan earlier this week and really praised him. And this three-guard lineup that they went to very quickly last night has been rather devastating.

What do you make of what happened last night in Westbrook's return? I thought it was funny seeing Chris Paul just bury Houston with Midranger. shots. Crazy. You know, I've thought about this because, you know, and I know, I see these NBA teams. Most of the time, like number one on their list is to prevent getting killed at the three point line, right? And then the next is to prevent getting killed at the basket. And so what you want is guys shooting the ball in the mid range.

And now you have these guys like Chris Paul, guys like guys like. to Mardorosen that are now feasting against these teams because they are able to routinely make that shot. I find this very fascinating, right? That it's almost like the ying and the yang. It's reminiscent of like, you know, everybody in the league got smaller and faster in order to deal with the passing games in the NFL. And then you have the Ravens who just decide we're going to just line up and mash your face in. And so maybe the guys that can hit the the floaters and the mid-range stuff, they are now in this ironic way becoming a real asset.

It was interesting. There was a play in the first quarter last night, and it was, I think, four minutes left. Hardin drove on Gallinari, almost broke his ankles, and Hardin has a step-back jumper from like 17 feet with 15 seconds off from the shot clock, and he didn't take it.

He dribbled the ball back behind the three-point line and then took a contested three. because Gall and I recovered. And Hardin missed the shot. And I watched that early in the first quarter. And it's just amazing to see the difference in the style of play between Hardin and then Chris Paul, who's just willingly and seeking out the mid-range. I do think there is still value in that shot.

It's a fact. And teams still use it. Superstar players still use it. But sometimes we look at what James Hardin does. and we have this perception that a lot of star players are doing this. And Seth Part Now at The Athletic has written about this before. It's really just the role players who have changed. Role players aren't taking pull-up mid-range shots as much.

Role players aren't taking spot-up mid-range shots as much. They're just taking more spot-up threes. But star players across the league, including Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook, are still using the mid-range. It's really just Harden, who's playing this analogically. driven game to the full extreme that we observe with him like in that first quarter.

So to get back to your original point, there is still value in that. It's a fact and a lot of star players are using it. I wonder if maybe there will be more of a progression back towards that with how many teams that are giving that shot freely and allowing players to take it

openly like Hardin had an opportunity to in the first quarter but didn't. Oh, well, look, I mean, I see it nightly where it's you know, say, for instance, the team I watch the most regularly, yeah, Valentin is, on a pick and roll, he backs up all the way to, like, near the basket. If you can hit a six, you play the team that can hit the six foot floater, you're dead, because they'll just hit him all night until he comes off and they have to replace him

with the Jaron Jackson or whoever. But, I mean, like, and you see teams doing this all the time. They will back up to the basket. They will allow you to shoot from, you know, all the way to six feet from the basket. And a lot of these players, they can hit six foot floaters all night, you know. And somebody like Chris Paul, he could shoot 99 of 100, you know, if you want to give him that. It's still not a preferred shot, though. I mean, by the numbers, it's just not.

I mean, like Chris Paul's numbers on on floaters this season, I'm sure are very good compared to, and they are. He's shooting 49% on runners the season, according to, energy sports, that's very good. So for him, it's a good shot, but for most guys, it's just not. Yeah. And it's interesting what you say about the role players and what they do, because you're right.

There are a lot of, there are a lot of role guys now that all they do is either shoot threes or go to the basket. Like, I'll take, for instance, a guy I know, Grayson Allen, right? December, he took two shots, two. And one of them was the end of a shot clock, two. that were either not a three or a layup. And to make your point, that's happening all over the league, where that's the only shot those guys are taking.

It's just hardened being such a spectacular score. That's what we see from him. I tell you this, I would not want to see that Oklahoma City team. If they don't change a lot, I wouldn't want to see that Oklahoma City team, Kev, in the playoffs. Because you get into these hard-nosed games in the playoffs. They're going to be able to play defense. And they are, if the game is in the balance, the last three minutes,

I still want Chris Paul on my side, you know? Yeah. You know, and that's the funny thing with this team. I mentioned this with Philadelphia, but I think they should at least go for Chris Paul. I think Milwaukee should also be talking about going for Chris Paul. But if you're Oklahoma City, it's like you've got a good thing going right now. I know.

And like Woj reported earlier in the week, you know, as have I before that, they are a team that is open to trading a Galanari or Stephen Adams or even Chris Paul. But the fact is, is that I'm not sure there's a deal out there for those guys that's acceptable or makes total sense to actually make. And if that's the case, it is possible that they could be sneaky buyers. If there's a right deal out there for a player that can help in the short term and the long term, you'd be making a deal for the long term because of where this team is and it's in its lifeline, but it's going to be interesting to see what they do over these next couple weeks because they could go in either direction. And either way, either way, if they make a

trade with Gallo or Paul or whoever, they get a really good thing going right now with their young talents, Shegills and Salis Alexander being what he's turning into. That's a plausible matchup what took place last night. You could totally see Houston being three and them being six. Yeah. And I would not hate their chances in that. I mean either. Okay. So he's a good team. Before the, Before the year, I had some bad rankings of my preseason power rankings, but with O KC, I had them like 16th or 15th, something like that. And people were like, are you kidding me? They're going to stink.

I'm like, what are you talking about? Look at this roster. They got good players. They got good players. You're right. I think the reason why is because the perception of Chris Paul after last season in Houston was that he was washed up. And that was just false.

It was false. And here's the thing, Kim. You and I talked about it. Oh, and I was talking about this last night. Look, Dan Tony obviously did not want that trade. He did not. He even said on a podcast this summer, like, Chris Paul is still fantastic and he is going to be. He said that to me when I interviewed him.

And he's going to have two more years. Like, he's still going to be good in two years. Okay, so let's say this. He's awesome this year. Let's say he's still really great next year. Okay? There's only one year on that contract after that, right? So all of a sudden, that contract that everybody said is poison pill, untradable, all this,

yet it looks better by the day in terms of, hey, if this guy is, you know, this kind of guy that, you know, raises your ceiling and makes you good just by being on your team. Well, if we, if we accept that he's still going to be good next year, then yeah, it's worth of, It's a $44 million contract in 21, 22, and he's going to be 36. I get it. But if you're already getting another great value out of it, you know, if we accept that you'd be getting great value of it next season, you know, Chris Paul being good at 36 would not shock anybody.

He's not, he's not 46. And that's what Dan Tony said to me. You know, I asked him about the way people were talking about him and what he can be moving forward. And granted, Dan Tony's. not going to trash any player, but he was genuine in what he said and the way he said it. And he pretty much said to me, he thinks Chris Paul over the next three years is going to continue to play at a high level and his numbers will go back up largely because of just how

he is as a competitor and what he's done already to expand his game as he ages and the sacrifices that he's made. And that's what we saw from Chris Paul the last two years in Houston. he's somebody who dominated the ball for the for years in new orleans and then los angeles and then in houston he did take a back seat next to the superior player the superior scorer and james hardin but this year in okoma city the question came up about is chris paul going to take the ball out of gildes alexander's hand too much and hurt his development that does not happen paul is playing his role under donovan's offense which emphasizes ball movement and sharing the ball and he is playing some of the better basketball we've seen from him in years because of his

willingness to adapt and evolve within the system and do what's best for the team. So I think Paul deserves a lot of credit for doing that as a player who has been as great as he is as an orchestrator of great offenses, but now to sacrifice and be willing to play within the system, got to really respect a guy for doing that. And it's one of the reasons why I also think Chris Paul is going to continue to be a successful, impactful player moving forward as long as he's healthy and hopefully he does stay healthy. Who would have known, Kevin, that Westbrook going back to Oklahoma City would cause a big fight between Kendrick Perkins and Kevin Durant of all things? But this took over the Twittosphere last night as it started with Kendrick Perkins proclaiming that Russell Westbrook was the best player to ever put on an Oklahoma City Thunder Jersey.

Then, as he has protested with about this, Durant finally clocks in because, you know, Perkins says in response to Westbrook losing without Durant, that Durant lost without Westbrook 2. And Durant fires off, yeah, and our starting center, Kendrick Perkins, averaged a whopping two and three during that series. Durant replied,

you played hard though champ and then things really escalated from there where it ends with Kendrick perkins saying boy stop you did the weakest move in NBA history up on a team three one in the Western Conference finals then go to them the following season hard of a champion right there and then uh weak is is starting at center playing real minutes with no production durant retorted should have worked on your skills as much as I did and then Perkins got the last word. That's fine. You worked that hard and still had to go join a 73 and 19. Truth be told, you don't even feel like a real champ. You have a hard time sleeping at night, huh, knowing that you took the coward way out. My God. Wow. I mean, I'm sitting there watching this. This is happening

at about 1030, 1045 Central last night. And I'm like, oh, what is happening? Like, this got, this got very personal, very quick. You know what I mean? Like, it felt kind of like, like, maybe they would, I don't know, I guess the whole like, the, hey, you average, our starting average, center average, two and three, blah, blah, blah. Like, I guess I should have known Perkins wasn't going to just laugh that off. But there was this moment where he says that and then Perkins says something back. And then he says something to the effect of, and you got that champ right, meaning, you know, he's got a ring with the Celtics.

And then you had like this Durant like handshake emoji. And I was like, okay, well, that got that got a little heated for a minute. And then, I mean, God bless Perkins just goes scorched earth. You can't sleep at night. I mean, God. I think the unsung hero here is Mark D'Amico. There's no doubt. The initial person who responded to Kendrick Perkins, Mark who works, he does Celtics TV stuff.

very good at what he does. He does these great film breakdowns with players that are just awesome to watch. Great stuff that he does. And he kind of like, you know, sparked this a little bit with questioning Perkins. Yes. Because Perk originally is like best player to wear a Thunder uniform, Russell Westbrook.

And Mark Demico's like, what are you talking about? Not Russell Westbrook, it's Kevin Durant. And that's what got this started. So credit to Mark Demico for influencing this to start because, oh my God, it's a beautiful way to end the night. Beautiful way to end the night. I mean, Twitter, like, I can't believe Twitter's free for

stuff like this. This is amazing to watch Katie and Perk. Katie has called Perkins his favorite teammate ever before. These guys are friends and Katie himself did say Perk, you know, has been shooting his little shots at me for for some time now. And that's true. But, man, to put this out there publicly on Twitter. My goodness, thank you for the content and the laughs that we were given last night. I'm not sure about you, Chris. I wasn't laughing as much as just my mouth just dropped. I was like, wait a minute here. Is this really happening here? But the thing is, it's the truth. Like, it's the truth that this was going to happen. And I still am shocked that Katie, when he did sign with Golden State, this was years ago. And I'm sure Katie's sick of us.

even bringing it up as fans and media. But this isn't something people were going to let go. And it's something that people within the league haven't stopped talking about. And something clearly his friends, like Kevin, Patrick Perkins, have not started talking about either about Kevin Durant. I just

wonder, what is it going to take for this to ever go away for Katie? Is it winning a championship in Brooklyn? Is that what it's going to take for people to be like, you know what? Forget it. You've won everywhere. It doesn't make a difference. There is a level of decorum that is usually understood.

And that is that this kind of stuff does not end up in the public. You know, like, that is the kind of thing that Kendrick Perkins, I don't think he's doing it to get a rise or because he's got a media job now or making a name for himself or anything else. I don't. I think he really.

Perk has been awesome though this season. I know, but he really thinks that. Like I've really, and he speaks his mind. And I think a lot of people. That's what they perk so good. I think a lot of people really do. I think there's a lot of players that do. But it's the kind of thing that they would say to you if you were out for a drink or if you were hanging out with them off the cup.

It's what they really think, but it is not something that they say. And beyond that, look, let's say they are friends, right? Or at least at one time we're really good friends, right? that is just so ridiculously out of bounds. I would be furious if I were Durant. If I were Durant and you're supposed to be like, you know what I mean? Like what? Hold on now.

Like we've spent a lot more time together and we care about each other theoretically than a lot of people. You know what I mean? Like I don't know other people's families and I don't know all these people out there that are laughing at me now and doing the popcorn eating emojis and everything. I don't know all those people. Like, why is this happening out in public? You know what I mean? If you've got a problem with me, but I would, so to me on that level, just as, look, I don't agree with what Durant did either, okay?

But on the, and being on Twitter as, like, never served him well. Like, is there anything good that has come from Kevin Durant being on Twitter? I'm unsure. I can't remember it. That being said, Kev, just as someone. who values loyalty a lot, that is a weak-ass thing to do for me, if I am Durant. I get it. I get nobody likes his decision, whatever.

But this guy is supposedly my friend. We have been through battles together and everything else. Why are you firing off at me? And in fairness, Durant probably should have kept his mouth shut and not said anything about the Perkins and, you know, Westbrook. Just let that go. Let Russell Westbrook go back to Oklahoma City without incident. So he's not without blame.

He's not without blame. Was there anything more predictable than Kevin Durant somehow getting mad on Russell Westbrook's return? Like, of course, it was going to happen. And of course, he was probably in his feelings. That being said, I don't know, man. Perkins putting that out there for everybody to point and laugh at KD. while I enjoyed it on the entertainment level, on a friend level, if they are actually friends,

that's messed up. You know, I think from a friendship level, you're right. And it's unfortunate we saw two friends go at it in public the way in which we did. You can't sleep at night? Like, that's the thing that your worst enemy says. That's like what Perkins did is not. the actions of somebody that likes the other guy. It's the actions of somebody that hates the other guy.

Seriously. Like that's the kind of thing you say about somebody you hate. That's like what an Oklahoma City fan tweets. Well, you can't sleep at night. I mean, yeah, I mean,

that's the funny thing. It's like, my guess is when Katie originally responded to Perk saying, our starting center average a whopping two and three. That is facts. He, Katie was probably just, you know, joking tongue and cheek, right?

He's not thinking anything else. Then Perkins comes back. Yeah. Scorched earth. I mean, if there's anything we learned is, don't get an argument with him. No,

but it's kind of like, you know, when Drake got in that rat battle with push a tea. And then he came back with the, you're hiding a child and everybody's like, oh my God. Like,

like, bro, there's rules to this. You know? Like, this is outrageous. Like, I mean, everybody got to that song and that line and you're like, bro, this is so out of bounds. And like, that's kind of how I felt last night. While, while both Pusherty and Kendrick Perkins entertained me, I can still, you know, admit that, like, bro, that's a bridge too far. You can't sleep at night. You don't feel like a real champion.

Like, you know that shit hurts. That hurts, man. One other thing before we move on from Perk and KD, I want to hear Perkins do play-by-play because we got a tease of it a couple weeks back. He did play-by-play on a Celtics broadcast, and he was awesome. Really? He was really good. Yeah, it was great.

And I think Perk, there's a, like, I know a lot of people on Twitter have mixed feelings about players only and how that worked. But I do think with the right players, it can. be great. And Perk with his perspective and with his honesty and his forwardness and his analysis of what's happening on the court, I think Perk would be really, really great

as a guy moving forward on play by play at a national level. And I hope, I hope we get that someday nationally because there's potential there with him. Yeah. Regarding Perkins, he also was on with Chauncey

Billups on the jump with Rachel Nichols. I saw yesterday, day and they were covering the beeline story, which then took on a whole life of its own in terms of just relentless jokes. Last night, even Charles Barclay referenced bone slugs in harmony and bone slugs in harmony. And then you had, you know, slug matrimony and slug life and sluggish, ruggish bone, slim slug.

Has anybody heard the young slug album? I mean, okay, look, you know I like John Beeline. This is preposterous to have to come back and say, I meant to say, slugs. I mean, it's just like the idea that anybody would defend it is outrageous. It's just, it's crazy. He screwed up and he screwed up bad. And one of the things that strikes me regarding this whole Beeline thing. And I was thinking about it when I was talking about the guy that was just hired by the Carolina Panthers, Matt Rule, right, for Baylor.

So, from Baylor, stay with me here. So many times when we see college coaches go to the professional level, they are the absolute power when it comes to their college programs, right? You are to do as you are told. I am the leader and you are the follower. and there is a rigidness to these guys that is totally possible on the college level that is harder, that does not translate to the NBA. And yet you see the guys that have gone to the NBA, whether it is the Brad Stevenson's or the Billy Donovan's

or guys that it has worked. And they are not those rigid guys. They would be what people say are players coaches. They deal with their players well. and it's not my way or the highway where they are the great oracle and you are to follow me. And then we've seen other guys that haven't had success that have moved from college to the NFL, that's been one of the issues, whether it's a spurious or Sabin or whoever it may be. And then in the NBA, we've seen it too.

John Caliperi, Rick Patino, you know, these kind of guys that are cusses you out, my way or the highway. I'm the smart one. You just listen to me. Kind of like the old college professor. Whereas the other guys are less rigid, more players, coaches, and it works. And I'm struck by that in thinking about the B-line translation to the NBA

and hearing all of these complaints. And then obviously this incredible mistake that he made with a locker room that he already, by most reports, has lost that, you know, that is the thing. The guys that are the ones that can translate to coaching men in a professional league are the ones that can relate to them, the ones that you think are like, you know, cool guys, right? Whether it's Stevens or whether it's Pete Carroll in the NFL or whoever it may be. And this Beeline thing, this is just the latest in what has just been an absolute disaster there. sure and obviously with beeline whether he said it or not um it's it's unfortunate that that happened

um and odds are he did say it just misspoke or said the wrong word it's it sucks and for the team to come out and play the way they did last night getting an overtime win is interesting uh you know whether they're playing for bline or whether they're playing for each other or for themselves it was nice for cleveland cavaliers fans to see some life for that team, especially after what happened this week. But for B-Line, moving forward, this team is going to change. The guys in the

locker room are going to change. And after this happened, I think for him, it needs to be a significant learning experience and how to coach NBA professional athletes compared to college students. And it's odd to learn that, you know, 40 years

into your career. Yes. It's very hard. It's very hard for anybody to break any type of habit. Well, the only way No matter how Monday it is a day-to-day-day-life. It's hard to break habits. And the only way that these guys are cool with it is if you win like hell, right? Bill Belichick can act any kind of way, you know? And, like, you know what you're getting into when you go there.

There's a culture established and you know you are going to win, right? I saw it years ago with a guy, Hubie Brown, who came in, he walked into the locker room, his first meeting and said, you guys are a bunch of losers. That's the reason they hired me. You know what I mean? And everybody's like, Jesus. But, I mean, he ends up winning and they end up getting better. And so they respond.

But if you're going to, you know, be my way or the highway kind of guy and, you know, be difficult, then you better win. You better get results. And the worst combo is that and not winning. Then it's a disaster. Right. One thing I want to touch on that you mentioned, you mentioned Pete Carroll. He stunk his first stints in the NFL. with the Patriots.

And with Beeline, he's so much further into his career, though, than a young Pete Carroll was when he was first hired. And there may never be a second chance for Beeline. So you get to figure this out very quickly in Cleveland. But not only that, though, you need your younger players to figure it out pretty quickly, too. Somebody like Darius Garland and last night's game had probably his best game of the season. 20 points, seven assists looked really good on the course. for them. You need somebody like Garland to continue to develop and get better. Otherwise, as a coach, if you're having issues with the guys in the locker room because the losing or the way you're

acting or because your system, whatever it may be, your time is going to run out pretty damn quickly. So it's not just Beeline who needs to get better. It's things that are somewhat out of its control, including the development of his younger guys, especially someone like Darius Garland, who, by the way, like some of the criticism of him early in the season, let's not forget, this I played like two college games. He's barely played organized basketball in a year. And he has shown some flashes that have been impressive,

especially from the perimeter. And last night was a taste of what he can be moving forward, hopefully with some consistency. And that's what Beeline needs for his offense to work as a guy who can be a creator like Garland showed he can be last night. A couple quick things.

So on Tuesday, we did overreactions for the midseason, right? I want to go ahead and ditch one of mine. and that is the Chicago Bulls being able to make the playoffs. I mean, they lost Wendell Carter. So, like, I mean, Wendell Carter has been, he's at a good second year. He's their third leading scorer.

He's their best rebounder. Best defender. And he's their best defender. And they can't afford to lose. They can't lose him. He's already a really good defender, period. You know, 20 years old is good. Yeah, they can't lose him.

You know, and when people, you start, you have started to see the Horford comp. Is that fair? You start to see it. 12 and 10. I threw that out there. I threw that out there

pre-drafts. That's why I liked them over your guy, Marvin Bagley. Yep. And you have started to see that. Are you on Team Wendell Carter now too, Chris?

I always loved when. Wendell was in my guys that won't fail. Team Wendell over Marvin Bagley. Oh, absolutely not. That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous.

No, that's crazy. All right. I was hoping you're on the same team. No, but I mean, hey, Morgan Bagley needs to play basketball. I mean, this is two years. That's part of it. Two years of hurt. Availability is the best ability.

Hey, speaking of second year guys, I am going to see another one in person tonight. The spurs have turned it around. They are, you know, Aldridge has been playing like an all-star. DeRosen has been absolutely out of his mind now. for two weeks. One of the best players in the league for two straight weeks. And they, I'm going to see them in person. We expected that this would be a huge game because of this dreadful race for the eighth seed in the Western Conference,

which is probably Tim Bontems wrote about this today. I didn't realize this. The last time a playoff team in the West had a losing record was 9697. And that was the Clippers at 36 and 46. So, and look, it appears as if it's hard to imagine. I suppose somebody could be 500, but it's probably more than likely that they won't be. But the Spurs team, who I expected to take two losses this week, you know, ran out on the bucks and then went and beat up on the Celtics. And as I said with the second year guys, they finally ditch the Bellanelli thing.

And they've put in Lonnie Walker the fourth. Lonnie. And DeJante Murray has begun to look, you know, back, you know, to kind of the guy that we saw before. Back but better because the shot looks good. Yeah, because he lost all of last season. And so you've had some tweaks to the lineup there. You've had Aldrin's playing great. You've had DeRosen playing great.

And now you have this race for the eighth seed. I'm going to see him in person tonight. but like it it is certainly worth paying attention to because they have it's no small feat to in the same week you know beat the bucks and then beat the Celtics sure right definitely and i think it's cool to see somebody who wasn't playing early in the season now playing an important role you mentioned lonnie walker the way he's performed giving such great effort on the defensive end of the floor playing within himself on the offensive end when that was sometimes his issue in college was decision making

but he's playing a really high effort style of play a smart style of play and that's why Pop is probably rewarding him with minutes he probably saw the advancement through practices and now he's getting rewarded with it and he's performing a really good level for a second year player

it's two years in a row Kev that you and I have both called him out when we've gone to Summer League and I said earlier you remember that Houston game which ended up being very controversial he was absolutely unbelievable in that game that ended up getting protested. And then he was just kind of away again.

You didn't hear much from him for a little while after. And both years, his rookie year and then last year, you watched him in Summer League and like, oh my God, this guy is better than everybody. He's the best guy on the court. And then it would get to the season and didn't, you know, he had injuries last year. But this year, he just has not been in the rotation. And now he's been in the rotation. and has been, you know, I mean, the other night, he's, you know, it's still 20 minutes.

But, I mean, the other night against Boston, he's playing 19 minutes and getting 18 points and three rebounds and an assist and a steal. And, I mean, he's doing stuff. I still don't love this team this season, but, you know, there's still a lot of promise for the San Antonio Spurs team moving forward with their youth, Murray, Forbes, Lonnie Walker, Derek White. has not been good as compared to what it looked like there was going to be an but still but then we also just touch on Jacob Pertil who is a really good room protector

who's good on switches and granted because he can't space the floor for you his his peak might be limited but he's still a good rotation big man to have and there's some promising players on San Antonio but still if you're talking about what future you're taking you're not taking

the San Antonio's future over the bright future Memphis Grizzlies. They're They look really, really, really good. If they win tonight, are they the eight seed? Unfortunately, because it was expected that the spurs were going to lose to the bucks and then lose to the Celtics. And so that this would be all of a sudden the Grizzlies are a playoff team. They would actually be tied after, I mean, this is. They would have a slightly higher win percentage, so they would be the eight seed.

They would, so they would be the eighth seed of Memphis once tonight. I saw the spurs in person about two weeks ago, and they put up 145 on the Grizzly. So here's hoping I don't see that again. I want to, I don't know if I can. It was honestly, in whatever it's been, 19 years that I've covered the team, it's the most unbelievable offensive performance I've ever seen. I'm not kidding.

I've never seen a team shoot like they shot. It was, I think Aldrich had 20 in the first quarter. It was the most insane. They were like 18 of 21 in the first quarter, and they're like jumpers. Well, that was insane. That was the game the other week. Jay Crowder showed he was better than Kauai Leonard shooting the heck out of him. Yeah, right.

They scored 140. That's right. Hey, the other thing is this week, I did just want to shout this guy out because while Minnesota is a rat team, especially without towns, they hit on Culver, Kev. He is, he's a player. I really liked him. I've seen him now twice in person. Obviously, I had the big dunk last night, the highlight dunk.

But they hit that one. I am a fan of him, and I am excited to see what he grows into in the league. I know you were high on him in the NBA draft, but he shows well. And you just watch him and you see it. You see that this is a guy that has a chance to become a really good player in this league. yeah you know and he's been good defensively for them the offense is coming along slowly he's probably also been put into a role that he couldn't have expected to have had he's running a lot of the offense for them this soon for him it's a lot on his play so it's nice to

see some steady progression over the course of the year and you've you talked about this before the draft how hard he works and there's no doubt that regardless of what his potential is whether it's good rotation player or star or super super Superstar, whatever it is, he's got to reach his potential within his own environment. Hopefully the environment is good for him with his development. But whatever situation he's given, he's going to maximize that because of his work ethic and his mindset. Yeah, I remember there's a guy I worked with for many years, Glenn Cyprian, who was on the Texas Tech staff last year. And when I was asking about all kinds of different players to him, of course, I was talking to him about Culver.

and I said, I didn't put any highly, highly ranked players in the article this past year, but he said to me, he said, look, if you're looking for a guy on that whole do not fail list, I promise you, Chris, you can put this guy. He said, because he, I was like, his mom runs a charity. The dad is our team chaplain and he's a pastor. He is like an absolute great kid. He works like crazy. And he said, they're not exactly the same.

He said, but the guy he reminds me of is a player I call. coached at Texas A&M, and that was Chris Middleton. Yeah. And I remember, I'll never forget him saying that, you know. And look, if you ended up with Chris Middleton, you ended up with, I mean, Chris Millison is about to make $200 million in the NBA, and he's made an all-star team, and he's on the best team in the league, you know? In my draft guide this year, the comps for him were Chris Middleton, Malcolm Brogden,

and then a low-end comp was Jeremy Lamb, which is not bad. No. But a, like, a combination of Middleton and Brogden with some of Brogden's playmaking and decision-making skills and then Middleton as a score and defensive player, that would be a great combination to have moving forward for the Timberwolves next to cat. Yeah, no, I think that this guy is going to

grow into something. Yeah, I know the numbers aren't great, but you can see it. You can see it. They hit on him. He's going to be a player. The main thing is the shot needs to get back to being what it was as a sophomore at Texas Tech because he is not a natural shooter.

And that was, that's one of the drawbacks with him as a prospect. but if he can get that shot mastered to his own abilities, then that's big for him. And we know that is the easiest thing to improve. You know what I mean? Just get in the gym. I don't know about that.

I don't know about that. Oh, come on. Like people, look, who's the best player? It's more than just getting in the room. Some guys just don't have good feel. It can be a biomechanical issue. Like, look at Cam Reddish. Cam Reddish has always had picture perfect looking shooting form.

And, but he's never shot. well, he's always been a low 30% three point shooter. He wasn't high school, he wasn't college. And then after college, me included, have said, well, he looks great. You know, over time, you know, maybe that shot gets better. And maybe it does.

But it's still the same questions now with Atlanta, that it wasn't college. I'm just telling you, Kevin. Sometimes it's going to buy a mechanical. It's hard to get bigger. It's hard to get stronger. It's hard to get faster, you know, and sustain it all for a long, long time. There's a lot of things that you are just blessed with.

and that's what you are. Shooting is a skill. And we have just seen too many over the year. Kawhi Leonard and Jason Kidd and Kyle Lowry. It's more than just a skill. It's more than just because he was in the gym more than anybody else. He's blessed with elite hand-eye coordination. He's blessed with elite feel.

He's blessed with the ability to contort and twist his body. I will bet you that Steph Curry actually did take more shots than anyone ever when he was a kid. Yeah. That's what I'll bet you. But that's not why he became a shooter. a lot of factors, many of which are out of his control. It's what sometimes it's what you're born with and then how that is developed and nurtured over time. It's not nature versus nurture in anything in life.

It's nature and nurture and how they interact with each other and making the person what they are. When you have seen so many guys that were not shooters become shooters. Yeah, of course. You can improve that. There's a lot of things you can't. All I'm arguing is your point that it's the easiest thing to improve. It's not. The knock on Cam Radish, by the way, is that he doesn't work.

Like, that's the knock. It's literally what people said coming into the draft. He doesn't love it. He's not a gym rat. He's not the guy that's going and shooting 20,000 times a day. That's a not too. If he's right off and just say, oh, it's bio-mechanical, like, how about he goes and shoots 10,000 shots a day and we'll find out?

Like, you can get better at that. I believe that that is something that is true. Like, look, with Cam, it could, it could be something like that he's doing with his fingers and he needs the right shooting coach to fix it. It could be that. Just get in the gym and practice. It could be, it could be that he doesn't wear contacts and he needs to get his eyes fixed. It could be a mental block that he has. It could be so many factors other than just like, got to get in the gym and get more shots.

There's so much that goes into every skill on the floor. And shooting, shooting isn't just a rep thing. it's not just that. There's a lot more that goes into the success of a shooter. How do you disagree with me? Because unless the first thing is done, I won't accept the others. And do I believe that he has worked a lot on his shot? And now we're at this point where we can just say,

okay, there's something else wrong. If I've dedicated my life to shooting, if you could become a good shooter. Yeah, but could I become a great shooter? Yes. Maybe I could. Maybe it's within my abilities. But not everybody has the touch or the feel to do that. When you're on the NBA, you do.

Come on. If you've gotten to this point. That's not true. We have seen over the years a million guys that, quote, couldn't shoot become guys that could shoot. I've seen it. And then we've also seen guys who couldn't shoot still not be able to shoot. Like we have Stanley Johnson and Justice Winslow who's gotten better, but he's still not a great shooter. Like we have these guys.

We have a Kauai Leonard who goes from average to great. We don't, not everybody is a Kauai though. Some guys just stay as average shooters. We saw Michael Kidd Girlcrest work with Mark Price, who changes mechanics and he still can't shoot. Is that because he doesn't work hard? Or is it because maybe there's just some issue with him biomechanically within his fingers or within his arms or something with the way his brain works and looking at the rim and focusing on the rim and putting the ball where he wants it.

Not everybody has vision like a Nicola Yokic where he can just pass the ball and it goes bull's eye where he wants it. That's not a skill. That is a. Yes. Exactly. You can't develop that. You can develop that.

Exactly. You can't just develop that. Thank you. But you can develop into a good shooter. Not if you don't have. at least the requisite amount of hand-eye coordination or whatever is going on in your fingers

that has to do with feel and touch and how it interacts with the mystery of our brain and how it works. There's so much more than just getting reps. Okay. All of these guys, all of these guys that we talked about. Not everybody

could practice guitar all day and become Jimmy Hendricks. I guess they just I can't be Jimmy Hendricks. I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess,

I guess, I can't be David Gilmore because of his magic fingers and the feel and the touch that he has when he bends notes in the guitar. I can't do that no matter

how much I practice. Again, I don't think you're understanding the difference in this. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm not. All, all I'm saying,

these are God-given gifts that you are comparing. Like, look, I'm not saying that I can go practice and I can go try to jump every day in my life. I'm never going to be a,

able to dunk, Kevin. I'm never going to be able to. I could go out there and I could jump every day of my life and I could get the shoes with the little weird souls on them and I could do anything. I'm never going to be able to dunk. There's going to be a limitation on that. But the limitation on your ability to shoot, we have seen so many guys over the years that were, couldn't shoot, that became guys that could shoot. It is the easiest thing to fix. That's what I said at the beginning. And I disagree with you for all the reasons that I listed. It's not just reps. None of which apply. There's a difference between a God-given gift and a limitation from that and a limitation in being able to shoot a basketball. Yes, but they interact with each

other though. Okay. All right. That's all right. Jared Culver is going to end up being good. That was the point. Yeah, I like him. I agree. We agree. I had a ranked third which might be too low. Might be too low. I had Zion 1, R.J. Barrett 2, which we'll see. So wait a minute here. Wow.

How is that your reaction? Wait a minute here. Wait a minute. You just, wait a minute. You just got done talking about how Culver works so hard. He's going to be able to fix his shot. I'm saying I have a 40. Culver shooting 43% from.

the freezer line. 25% from 3. I'm laughing about not hearing John Moran's name yet. That's what I'm laughing about. Okay, okay, yeah. I had jaw ranked too low. I had jaw 4 behind Culver, which is too low. I admit that.

Too low behind Culver, too low behind RJ and maybe too low behind Zion. If I were ranking, if I were re-ranking right now would be obviously Zion 1, J-2, Culver 3. really? Yeah. All right. Kevin, have a great weekend. I hope you have a great weekend as well, Chris.

I'm going to go shoot basketball. Thanks to Bobby Wagner for producing. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars. It really helps. And we will talk to you on Tuesday.