The Ringer NBA Show - Klay Thompson Catches Fire, the Bucks Remain Aflame, and the Cold-Start Teams | The Mismatch (Ep. 329)

Episode Date: October 30, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor recount the record-breaking night from Klay Thompson (0:50), debate how the still-undefeated Bucks have achieved early-season success (30:53), and discuss their concerns for underachieving Western Conference teams (44:44). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Message and data rates apply. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show, The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. I'm joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k.a. Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Con, K. Kevin O'Climber, aka Kevin O'Timing. Have on. What's going on, Chris, this morning? How are you?

Of all the days for you to put out your Clay Thompson opus, which I know you did the interview several weeks ago. And so you've been working on this article for a long time. And you have to write in the beginning of the article, something to the effect of, hey, no one expected, basically by the time this article was going to be printed, that Clay Thompson would be shooting 13% from three, but here we are.

And then you kind of go on through how Clay Thompson does what he does. Never in your wildest dreams could you have imagined. it would have been on total full display last night. And it just so happens the day the ringer posts your article about the greatness of Clay Thompson, he breaks the all-time record for three-pointers in a game. You're living right, Kevin. You're living right. The universe works a mysterious way, Chris.

All right. First things first. You got an opportunity to sit down with him and you wanted to pick his brain. And I found it interesting that you included in the insight that, You know, when you get to him, he's after practice. A lot of times these guys just want to go do their routine. The last thing they want to do is sit down with a reporter. And then you had the opportunity.

I think what you said within the article is you got the chance to talk basketball with him, and that's when he lit up. Definitely. You know, like sitting down with Clay, obviously right after a workout, the last thing you want to do is talking to another person. But like I pulled on my laptop and we just started talking basketball. And then he lit up. And it was great.

It's cool how that happened yesterday, Chris, right? Because there was a talk about how, oh, you know, what's wrong with Clay Thompson shot? What's wrong? Nothing's wrong. He was just in a little mini slump at the start of the season, that's all. What did you leave out of the article? Pretty much, mostly everything got in there, I would say. There was a good Steve Kerr quote that we ended up leaving out.

Just Steve basically said how Clay is at, his knowledge of the game is deeper than it's ever been right now. Like his understanding of the game, his understanding of his teammates, of angles and all every little thing is at the highest level it's been right now. That was probably the number one thing that comes to mind that we left out. But for the most part, everything really got in there. Yeah. It's kind of the sneaky thing about him, right? Because sometimes he could come off as aloof or goofy, but everybody you talk to say the guy is super smart. Like he's, they joke with him about being an old man because his routine is he has a newspaper, like a legit news. He is keeping the newspaper industry alive, Clay Thompson, by reading it every day. And he's,

like, you know, I remember reading somewhere that he's like elite at chess. You don't find a lot of dummies that are great at chess, but that the guy is, he's super, right? Shots fired. No, I mean, he's super smart guy. I don't think he comes off necessarily always as a guy you would think was uber cerebral, but in fact, everybody that's around him says you have no idea how smart this guy is and how much he works at it and attempts to learn and that there is a method and that's kind of what you want to chronicle right there's a method to this the reason he gets these shots and the reason he is so good at it is because he studies it this is not just by chance or i think a lot of people take away from his greatness by saying yeah well he gets to play with

step korea and now obviously with kevin durand for sure you know i mean i think with clay everybody knowledge is how great of a player he is. And I think with this, I just wanted to, you know, touch on what it actually is that makes him great, right? Like, I think ESPN stats and info tweeted out this morning, a second spectrum stat that Clay Thompson's 52 points were only on 52 touches. And he dribbled the ball only 56 times and had the ball on his hands only 96 seconds. Like, that's insane.

Like, there's so few players that can do that. Like, not every player that's a great score needs to dominate the ball. He's a guy who can dominate a game without even really touching the ball all game. And that's the perfect compliment on a great team. Whether it's the Warriors or any other team in basketball history, a guy who can compliment other star players like that is very unique or rather very unusual. Clay Thompson is. I think, though the little things about his game is more than just, you know, running around.

It's the reading the floor, it's the little hand movements, the little pushes. It was actually really fun just watching the video of him running around through screens, just seeing the little things that he does, the little pivots, the little moves, it's fun. Yeah, and I like when he pulls stuff like this off, because we have seen it virtually every year. He had 37 and a quarter. When you think about that, I mean, that's, they only played 12 minutes. It 37 and a quarter versus the Kings, where he was 13 for 13 to hit 9-3s. He had the one game in 2016, where he had 60 points in 29 minutes. He had another. He had another, game where he hit 27 points in a quarter against the Grizzlies and had 23 straight points at one

point. Like he is, he's the all-time heat check guy. I mean, within a quarter, within a number of minutes, within a game, he holds damn near every record for ridiculous amount of points in a short span of time with a short amount of dribbles. And you kind of feel like, I mean, when Durant went there. I actually was talking to somebody about this last week because I was saying, I'm glad Curry's going off because it might have hurt Curry a little bit in terms of whatever all-time legacy is, right? We acknowledge that Durant, in the minds of some people, possibly many people, the perception of him has gone down. His greatness has gone down simply because he joined an amazing team. Well, then when Curry does it and Durant wins these finals MVP's,

it's like, well, wait, Steph Curry was the best player on a team that won 73 games, and he won the MVP, and he won the title with that being happened. And then that kind of gets forgotten. All the meanwhile, Clay Thompson was his running buddy and the second fiddle, and now he's kind of the third guy. And so it's almost as if Clay Thompson's greatness is going to take a hit, you know, the farther down the pecking order you get on that team. And then he does something like this to remind you, like, dude, if he was on any other team, I mean, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Do you think Thompson benefits greatly from being on that team? I mean, they obviously set tons of great screens for him and they get him the ball, right? If Clay Thompson is off on his own, let's just say he left. Nobody in the free world thinks he's going to leave.

If Clay Thompson left for next year, do you think we look up and he's top 10 scorer in the league? playing for whatever random team. I don't know. I mean, like Ray Allen. I've had a very difficult time with this. If he's a Hardin type, right? Like, what if James Hardin would have always stayed with Oklahoma City? I mean, he's not a hardened type. Like, Hardin, you know, with the ball hand, like ability,

he's definitely not going to be that type. But I think you'd see more scoring. Like Ray Allen and his prime was a 25, 26 point per game score. And his latter years of the Supersonics. And earlier in his career with the Milwaukee Bucks was like a 23, 24 point per game guy. You know, and then with Boston, Ray Allen took on that kind of third role,

the floor spacing role, the guy who runs around the screen, is kind of similar-ish. It's a different error, of course, but similar to the role we see with Clay now. So I do think Clay can absolutely, he's capable of more. No doubt about it,

if you get him more on-ball opportunities, he's improved at handling the ball. He's improved it, two dribble pull-ups with a hand in his face. You know, he can still drain a three under pressure. I don't think there's a question about that with his game, Chris? It really depends on your expectations.

if you want to be a 30 point per game score, I don't know if you're going to get that. So in that sense, he benefits. But really, it's a two-way street, man. Like, his skill set is perfect for the role. You know what it goes back to, right? I'm having deja vu. It goes back to our Genobley discussion.

And it was like, yeah, well, he played like 25 minutes a game, and he was one of three guys. It was all of them together as a unit that made all that great, but did his greatness take a little bit of a hit in terms of perception? and obviously points per game in everything because he was playing within that system. Or maybe that was the show I did with Gons. It might have been with John Gonzalez that we talked about this because it's like when I hope history remembers Genobley more fonder than his stats indicate.

That's all I tell. Well, that's why, you know, you can't just look at numbers, right? You need to consider situations, circumstances, and everything else that goes with with Genobley. If anybody's just looking at their numbers, they're looking at the wrong. thing, right? Same with Clay Thompson. If when Clay's career is over, his numbers are what they are right now, 19 points per game, three rebounds to assist. And if people just look at that and be like, oh, he was a great shooter, but that's all. It's like, no, that's not what he, what is. He was a, he was one of the greatest shooters ever, first of all, who also improved over the course of his

career with the little things like passing. He improved it, shooting off the dribble. He improved in a mastered shooting, right? He came in a great shooter, and he became a great shooter, and he became a all-timer, right? He didn't come in an all-time shooter. He improved over the years because when you consider, like, think about where Golden State started, right? You know, and Clay came in the 2011 season, the type of defenses they're facing and the amount of attention

that's being paid to him has changed over the course of time. Like, he's needed to improve over time because of how defense has continued to funnel attention towards him. It's, to me, like, Clay never becoming complacence and continuing to improve has been fun to watch over the years. And not only that, but like with Genobley and with Thompson, just the level of sacrifice, right? Yes.

To think about the greater good for the team. I think with those guys, that's a testament to their greatness more than anything else. Like we've seen other players come through their, you know, Carmelo Anthony unwilling to come off the bench. To me, with Genobley and Thompson and any other guy, you know, we're not even mentioning, willing to sacrifice for the greater good to me is

I think that's a sign of true greatness. Oh, for sure. And well, listen. And in the end, he's going to have the championship rings to go along with his career, much like Genobley will. You can always do this. You can always say, like, hey, if James Hardin would have stayed, or if Manu Genobli would have left in free agency.

And he would have been the man on another team, or Clay Thompson would have gone and been the man on another team. How much different would it be? You talked about how defenses have changed. I was reading up on kind of the history of Clay Thompson as he achieved that last night. and one of the notes that I had jotted down was in 2012-13, which was his second season, there was a note that said Warriors coach Mark Jackson said that Thompson and Stephen Curry formed the best shooting duo in NBA history.

Now, think about this. This is Mark Jackson that was saying this. He said that season, the two combined for 483-3-pointers, the most ever by an NBA duo. That was in 2012-13. I think they already have 483 this season. It feels like they've already had 483 this season. But even at that point, by Clay's second year in the league, him and Curry set the record for most three-pointers by a duo,

and it was 483. I mean, like, no lie. Curry, like, going into last night, was like on pace for 400 or more. Himself, by himself. And the scary thing about, like, Clay's accomplishment, is summed up by this Steve Kerr quote. Listen to this, Kev.

This is last night him talking about the game. Quote, I didn't even realize what was happening until they called a timeout. He made a couple in the second half, and I heard Clay say two more, two more. And that's when I realized I didn't even know who had the record. So I turned to Steph and asked him, do you have the record? And he said, yeah, I've got it. I mean, that is embarrassing when the coach can look to his own bench and say, do you have the record. And the guy's like, yeah, it's actually my record.

That is amazing. What? Come on, man. That is amazing. And meanwhile, Curry and Durant, you know, have a chance to average 30 points a game. No teammates have done that since 61, 62. And that was like Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. Something else came to mind, Chris. You know, when you were telling the story about Mark Jackson, right? One thing I didn't mention earlier when you asked what didn't get into the story, because it just kind of slipped my mind to be honest with you, but I'm kind of glad I didn't mention earlier. It fits better now. But like, with Mark Jackson, I tracked basically the distribution of his shots off screens

that were threes compared to twos. And over the Mark Jackson error, a quarter of his shots off screens were three-pointer attempts. And then under Steve Kerr, over the years, it's been 45% of his shot. So close to half. So almost doubled. And, you know, I asked Steve Kerr about this. and he pretty much

he contributes that to the nature of the game now the game's changed. However, in the year he took over his coach it jumped up 10% from 30% to 40% and 50% the following year. I think Steve Kerr as well

deserves a lot of credit for obviously this has been discussed before but for elevating the Curry Thompson back court when he took over with the creative actions that he's installed over the years he really did elevate those guys

in that team, especially Clay Thompson with the off-screen usage, a lot of twos, turned those into a lot of threes. Obviously, I'm seeing everybody talk about this last night. I've got league pass, so I flipped it on. I mean, it was honestly, like, embarrassing in the second half.

I mean, they're already scored 92 by halftime. They could have scored over 200 points if they want to against that Bulls team. I mean, it was just a disgrace defensively. And then they would get the rebound. And I think it was at least six or seven possessions in a row. They're just trying to get Clay the record. the game had turned into being about Clay Thompson getting the record. It was like an All-Star game or something or something that was like being played at the park.

I mean, they're not going to get killed for it, but the Bulls, like, it was just a disgrace. It really was, honestly. Like, it was like the Warriors didn't even have to try. It was like they were just passing the ball around and then going to find Clay Thompson. And Clay Thompson's just like the game became about the record. And obviously the fans were excited to see the record. But how the hell do you give up 92 points and a half? Like that gets lost in this.

Like I really feel like the story from last night, if Clay doesn't set that record, that's the second most points that anybody's ever scored in a half. And that's going to get lost. Like you don't see that being mentioned all that much. But that halftime score being 92 to 50, I mean, come on. That's like impossible. They only play 24 minutes. How can you let a team score 92?

And I know that when they signed Jabari Parker and gave the contract to Zach Levine, that people expressed, I remember Simmons tweeting out that there's going to be all kinds of records broken because this team is going to be all-time defensively bad. How could everybody in the free world see that from a distance? And yet, I suppose Bulls management could not. Well, I mean, they didn't necessarily not see it, though. I mean, with Zach Levine and Jabari Parker and some of the guys on that defense, I think the expectation is you're going to be bad defensively. You know, I'm not like defending the Bulls giving up all those points in the half,

but it's Clay Thompson had a historic night, dude. That's what happens when a guy is a historic night, teams go off like that. Yeah, I know, but still. They don't score 92. I know, I know. The Bulls defense is ass, man. This is not a surprise. Hey, if somebody goes the hell off, you score 70.

Like, that's a huge number. Ninety-two. I mean, this should be like soccer where the Bulls get relegated for that. That's just, I don't know how you look at yourself in the mirror. The Bulls have a bunch of zeros on defense on their team, and they're going against an all-time great team. That happens sometimes. No, it honestly doesn't. In fact, it was historic.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't happen. It's happened one time in NBA history. All-Star games don't. have 92 at the half. All-Star games, where there's literally no defense being played until the last couple of years when they gave them a little financial incentive that mattered to them. But other than that, All-Star games, you can't get to 92 and a half. And they're just running up and down the court, throwing alley-oops to each other. I don't even know how you can give up 92. I really don't. I mean, if I didn't see it, I saw it. And go watch the 14-3s.

and tell me how often somebody is within six feet of him. I mean, it's a disgrace. Well, you read the article, Chris. You know how guys get back. Oh, come on. Listen, I give Clayton. I give Clay Thompson's of credit, but I mean, this was a level of defense that is undefined. These are supposed to be professional athletes, for God's sakes.

How can that be? I don't get it. I would pay 50 bucks for somebody to give me the audio of Fred Oyberg's half-time speech. what do you even say? I probably just wouldn't say anything. You know what I would do? I'd be like Eric Blitzow and just tweet out, I don't want to be here.

What if Fred O'Iberg tweeted that out at half? Oh, boy. I don't want to be here. The tough thing is for him is like he is a guy that's probably on the hot seat for the Chicago Bulls. He could be the next coach. We talked about who should be worried. He was one of them.

Well, I had mentioned Ty Lou. I also thought that the calves would be better than some people thought they were going to be. I thought they might be able to surprise people. That could not have been more wrong. But I was right in the sense that Crazy Dan Gilbert thinks they should be good, thinks they should be a playoff team. And so Tailu gets fired after six games. When you saw the news come across that Tailu got fired, what did you think?

Not shocked. Not shocked. You know, it's disappointing. it happened so early in the season, it's always weird when this stuff happens like this. It's like if you didn't want Louis's your coach, right, you would think you would have done it during the off season instead of waiting for an 0-1-6 start,

which suggests that maybe ownership's expectations were higher for this team than virtually anybody else's, if you're expected to be better than 0-1-6 early on, especially with Kevin love being out too. Well, it was interesting to see these stories about how part of it was the, you know, development or playing of the young guys. I guess there was some kind of struggle there.

And like, what do you expect, right? He's playing without LeBron. He's trying to win games because he thinks that that's what's got to happen. You know, this is not necessarily a season just about developing for the greater good of the future, but rather an edict to win this year. And so he's got these guys that he's comfortable with, the J.R. Smiths and the Corvors and the Tristons and George Hill and whoever else. And so, of course, he's playing these veterans, which isn't good enough to win. win, clearly. But on the other hand, there's some level of struggle regarding playing and developing

the young guys within the context. So it's kind of like sometimes those things can work in concert most of the time they don't, right? If you're going to play young guys, you're going to take losses because of it. Now, as the season goes on, they'll develop and you can win because you've developed them at the beginning. But obviously, this guy couldn't afford to lose six straight games without getting axed, right? So, of course, he's going to go out there with who he's comfortable with. It's just a crazy situation and obviously questionable leadership. You mentioned the development of the young players.

The Cavaliers rookie point guard, Colin Sexton, is a guy who's disappointed me so far this season. Granted, yeah, only six games in, but he was a guy where you would think coming in that his defense would be a plus, but he's pretty much been a zero on that end. And you could say it's a collective effort on the event's end of the floor. And that's true, but individually, I think he's really struggled with positioning, fighting through screens, all these little things. And in a way, it doesn't seem like the intensity was there like it was at Alabama last season as a freshman.

And he wasn't a guy I loved in the draft. I had him ranked 16th. So drafting him in the top 10 was a ne' decision to me. I understand it. But I think there were better players available, including Shegildes-Alexander. But with Colin Sexton, he still doesn't hit a three at this point either. Rough start. rough start for the rookie point guard

I'm in love with him he'll be fine he'll be fine he probably will be fine he will be fine but it's a matter of what level come on for six games of his career no you're doing this confirmation no no no fine will he be how are you doing today I'm fine

or will he be oh he's fine what kind of fine are we talking here I'm saying he's going to be fine and you are doing your confirmation after six games if that's the case let's go reread your Marvin Bagley Wendell Carter article Let's do that if you want to do that. We can do that.

Okay. Well, I saw Wendell Carter out there. He was part of the 92 points in the half. He also scored 18. Congratulations. You can't be, it could not have been a more meaningless 18 points in NBA history. Honestly, the only more meaningless points in NBA history than that were the ones I saw DeAndre Aiton score in Memphis.

Oh, come on now. 24 just totally meaningless points. Who cares? Sure, Chris. A, Colin Sexton is going to be fine. Don't you dare. Yeah. All right, let me get to the Tyron Loo thing, and I want to ask you about this.

Tyrone Loo went to three straight finals and won a championship. And yet everyone that's ever tied to LeBron is never necessarily going to get the credit that they deserve as a coach, right? He could have an amazing coach. And the coach is always, like, nobody ever thinks anybody that coaches LeBron is good. They're already doing it with Luke Walton. I saw people blaming Luke Walton last night. And I was like, oh, for goodness sakes. But it is the, it's the blessing and the curse of coaching LeBron.

And yet yesterday, when it was Ty Lou, and he's been to three straight finals and he wins a title, do you think there's anybody with that record, with that level of accomplishment that people don't necessarily think highly of in terms of their coaching ability? I'm not sure I understand the question. Okay, I'm saying, can you recall anybody that would have near that kind of record, resume accomplishment as a coach that people would not immediately like gobble up? Oh, with Lou. Yes, would you put him number one on your coaching candidates list right now? If whoever gets fired, would you say they should hire Ty Lou?

No, I would have David Blatt ahead of Ty Lou. Oh, my goodness. I just think, you know, a coach's record isn't necessarily indicative of a coach's ability. I mean, that's not a knock or anything against Tailu. It's just a general statement. Okay, that's a real question. Why do people not think highly of Tailu in your opinion? I mean, I think it's a couple of things, man.

It's, A, he had LeBron James on his team, and any time LeBron James is on your roster, it's really hard to assess the coach, because LeBron is such a forceful presence. But I also think it's other things for me, like the lack of creativity with Kevin Love at times. I think they got away from using him in creative situations off ball. They started installing it a little bit,

towards the end of the last season and into the playoffs. But I just think guys like that weren't necessarily maximized when they could have been and should have been in ways that really weren't that difficult. I think some of the lack of the movement off ball. And again, maybe that's a LeBron thing. Because again, anytime you have a LeBron on your team for better or worse, it's hard to judge those things. Like we're seeing that now with the Lakers, right?

I've heard that Luke Walton and LeBron James have a good relationship if they like each other. But then you see a quote last night from LeBron, like, you don't want to be near me when my patience runs out, well, all it takes is for him to get angry for things to change there with the coach player relationship. It's just hard to judge those guys when they coach LeBron James. I believe Eric Spolstra is the only coach who has a winning record that's coach LeBron when he doesn't have LeBron. Well, and the other thing is if your fear is, hey, this guy is a creation of LeBron James, right, that that's why we won and now it's exposure time. Like, let's say that was in the back of your head. Well, there was nothing in those six games. That looked like a rudderless ship.

Right. And you had J.R. Smith popping off already, you know, and obviously being a malcontent about things. And you saw, right, like whether it's controlling the locker room or, frankly, the most important thing, which is basketball. And that was a LeBron run team. That's what people thought. And there was nothing that happened early in this season to confirm. It was like, hey, okay, now you don't have LeBron, what kind of offense you run in, what kind of defense you run in, and they looked pitiful, absolutely pitiful. And maybe six games isn't long enough to be able to judge. But, I mean, honestly, if it's six games, if it's what?

You know, you're going to look up and he's three and fourteen, so what does it matter? I suppose you should give more respect to somebody that's been to three finals and won a title for your city as the coach on the other hand, I don't think he presented much of a case when you saw like, all right, what are they going to look like without LeBron? And I don't think anybody could argue that they looked like something that could turn into something, right? You've got this new offense and this is the way they're going to play now and all this kind of stuff. It looked like when LeBron was subbed out of the game and how bad they were, remember?

It would be like he'd have to play 38 minutes. just the few minutes that he was off the court, they'd get beat by 12 points. It's embarrassing. So, I don't know. He'll probably get a job, though. He'll get another gig. This is ultimately the argument for LeBron's MVP.

Like, look at this team without him. Yep. Right? Well, just look at the team. And that argument would be more solidified if the Lakers had more wins so far this year, but they don't. And so guess what they're doing? Blaming the coach.

I told you Luke Walton was going to get stressed out. you guys all in L.A. got overtaken by the preseason and by the time the season came around, everybody thought the Lakers were going to win 60 games. And now it's a struggle. Who said they were going to win 60 games? You said you'd lock in the over. What was it? 54. No. No, they're over under was like 47 and a half. I said 50. 60 games is outrageous. Oh, come on. You guys all love the, even Bill had been overtaken by it, which I was shocked by, by the Over Under podcast. He was talking about how he liked the moves and adding Rondo and adding all these Rondo Beasley, Lance, Javall, all the goofies that we talked about before the season never started.

And they took a loss last night. We'll talk about some of the other things that happened last night and the Lakers and other teams and whether or not there are at least three other teams that we thought were going to be playoff teams. And I'm going to ask you, Kevin, if you are worried about what kind of season they're going to have, even though we've only seen them play for, A week and a half will do that after these words. Today's mismatch is brought to you by 99 Designs. 99 Designs is a global creative platform headquartered in Melbourne, Australia, and makes it easy for designers and clients to work together. From logos to apps to packaging to books, 99designs is the go-to design resource for

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that might be making fans nervous, let's get to the one that stands above everyone. We have one undefeated team left. And this is by virtue of the Raptors and the Bucks played last night. The Raptors took their first loss. And they were without Kauai. The Bucks obviously without Yannis. But the Bucks have remained undefeated.

You had talked before the beginning of the season. And you wrote a really good article about Coach Boodenholzer and what he could be doing with the Bucks. Even after a couple of games, you kind of charted how their shot selection was. different. You know, this Bucks team now, they have, when we talk about if we're going to judge early, did they make the right move coaching wise or are we going to judge a coach early? It certainly appears we all thought it was a good hire when they hired Coach Bud, but 7 and 0, 7 and 0, and they're the only one left standing without a loss.

What are you thinking on the buck so far? They're looking damn good, man. It's not just the shot distribution on offense either. They're shooting a lot of three. You know, getting to the rim a lot, not shooting a lot of mid-range jumpers on the offensive end of the floor. But defensively, they're forcing quite a lot of mid-range jumpers. They've been really good defensively.

So it's not just the offense that's changed. It's the defense as well. Overall, Boon & Holzer's early impact has been just extraordinary to watch, really. It's surprising how quickly the team has really adapted. Even in last night's game, Chris, right? The guy that you would have expected to go off without Janus in the game was Chris Middleton, but he only scored 14 points on 4 of 11. It was some of the new additions on the team, like Ers on Elias Over, getting 19 points

on 12 shots. Overall, they've gotten contributions from different guys. With that team, to me, Chris, it's just weird seeing the floor always spaced, whereas in the past couple of years, it feels like it's always just been suffocating, always for Giannis. But now, even John Henson spotting up from three, it's just unusual seeing how quickly that team has changed with a couple important personnel changes. but the coach also just enhancing the existing players in the roster.

Well, and you go back to when you're talking about defensively and how many mid-range jumpers they are forcing, that is 100% the Spurs influence, right? And Boonellzer came from there. If you go back for the years of dominance, I remember doing this at one point looking back and what they were always great at. Obviously, they were a great defensive team year after year after year.

And a lot of that could be attributed to hell, they had Tim Duncan, who's one of the greatest players to ever walk the face of the earth. That being said, they were always great at two things. Guarding the three point line, teams did not shoot a high percentage against them, and guarding the paint. And that's even way before the game all changed. It was like their defense was ahead of the curve way back when. They were great at guarding the three point line and they were great at guarding the paint. and now you look up and one of the protgages for Greg Popovich,

you're seeing that now with that Bucks team. And any defense for that matter, if you're good at those two things, if you're going to be high in the league at three-point percentage against and you're going to be high in the league at points in the paint versus, it's impossible not to have a good defense, especially now the way the game is played, you know? Put it this way, Chris.

Last season, the Bucks allowed the second fewest amount of mid-range jumpers. In other words, they allow the 29th most in league, and you want to rank highly in this. This year, they're allowing the fourth-most mid-range jumpers. They're forcing teams into attempting mid-range jumpers. It is just an absolute about-face on both offense and defense under boot and holes compared to the kid prunty season last year.

It's weird. I can't imagine there's been very many situations in the past where system has just changed on both ends of the floor so quickly, too. A lot of teams take time, but these players have adapted quickly, and I think they deserve a lot of credit as well for embracing the changes to the system. Well, and the other thing regarding Budenhalser is he gets this credit because they didn't have major roster overhaul. We don't look and say, well, yeah, now they're second in the league in defense

because they added blank, blank, a bunch. It's primarily the same personnel. He's doing it with the same guys they had last year, right? Like, in terms of their rotation, there's not a bunch of new guys within the rotation. I mean, Lopez and Ilyosova are important additions. In terms of spacing the floor on the offensive end, last year, they could only play small. They could only space the floor when they went small with the honest, the four or the five. But now you can play big.

And you can still have the floor space. I look at those as more offensive, though, right? Oh, for sure. Those would benefit my offense greatly. They do. Brooke Lopez has never been some kind of DeKembe Mutumbo in there, you know. Of course not. No.

Right. But overall, I mean, those two particular additions were important. Yeah. And they're top five in both. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I do think we thought at the beginning of the season, wouldn't you say it was, it's Celtics and it's Raptors. And then there's probably a little bit of a break. And then you get to 76ers, bucks and whoever else you like.

I think what at least through seven games has told us is it's not just going to be Celtics Raptors. The bucks are going to be right there with them. don't you think I mean I think their rosters are still better overall no no I'm saying

you're going to look up at the end and like in terms of the record that I think the bucks are going to win a boatload of games hell they've got quite

the head start they're already they already got seven you know they already got seven ready to go and you look at the and I get it

right and I hope Janus can play Thursday night because that will be unbelievable they play at the Celtics so then we're going to get to see.

And that's the top two defensive teams in the league, the Bucks and the Celtics so far. So hopefully Janus can get there for that one. All right, let me ask you about a couple of these other teams, what we've seen so far. We already kind of covered Cleveland, and they're dead in the water. Larry Drew's even saying he didn't even know,

he needs a commitment to even coach this team. Who wants to even be around it anymore? I'm sure Larry Drew does. And by the way, Cleveland hosts Atlanta tonight. of all things. They've already gotten their ass kicked on their home court once, and they gave up that Trey Young game. The other team that's at the bottom of the Easter Conference standings,

and they've obviously had a lot of problems so far, and they have had a lot of very questionable quotes come out regarding Wall and Beal are the Wizards. Now, I'm actually going to get to see them in person tonight for the first time this season, because they are playing in Memphis. They are one in five so far. They are actually underdogs,

if you can believe that, to the Grizzlies tonight. What do you think has gone so wrong for Washington to start the season this way? Everything. Absolutely everything. That's easy. That's easy. Absolutely everything, Chris. With this team, they've been in the middle for so long now.

I'm honestly surprised that it's happened so quickly for them. Do it, Kevin. Do it. Wait, are you saying that... I'm giving you the fluid. No, I don't want to blow it up. I don't want to go to blow it up, tangent. But in terms of blow it, in terms of blow it up, Chris,

are you telling me that you feel confident you'd be able to get a positive return for John Wall with all the money left on his deal? I'm not sure. You know what? I saw the sons in person the other night, and I thought, you know what? This roster makes no sense.

Why not? They need a point guard. I mean, now again, if you're wizards, would you want a package where you can get a Josh Jackson, a war in? Obviously, they're in the luxury tax. They've got to take back less money. But they've got a bunch of duplication on that son's roster.

I mean, if you're James Jones, would you take a run it? John Wall? I just watched that team the other night, and I thought, why not them? Because you could actually get some really good young players that might turn into something that are just going to be caught in the mix. They're in between. What's the ceiling for Josh Jackson and Phoenix? Quicks the ceiling for T.J., right?

Because that's going to be Booker and Aiton's team. What do you think? I'm not the biggest John Wall fan To me he's the worst elite Point Guard does that make any sense Well by the way they've also tried it with two other Kentucky guys With Bledsoe and Brandon Knight So how about we stop the Kentucky train in Phoenix

Maybe best to avoid that With Washington it's a type of thing Chris where It's still early in the season I'm shooting only 31% from three so far That number should rise over the course of the season Help their offense out But when I said everything I really mean everything right

the team is a mess right now on both ends of the floor offense lacks the same amount of i think chemistry it seems to have in the past Dwight Howard is not going to solve their issues necessarily either maybe he helps a little bit on the defensive end of the floor but the team right now just feels like an utter mess right when you're relying on some of the guys they added like jeff green lebron light apparently oh wow i can listen it is shocking to me that a team that added Jeff Green, Dwight Howard, and Austin Rivers would have issues. That's crazy to me.

I mean, like, what are we doing here? And I mean, of course, of course they're going to have problems. They added three guys that have been like instant losing. Actually, Rivers is actually, he's the one I'd want more than the other two. And of course, they've got $16 million tied up

and Ian Maheen me, which is... I like Austin Rivers. I do. I like Austin Rivers. Okay. It's a spark plug. Beautiful tribute they gave him the other night. I heard the hug from Isaac. Isaac, you didn't bring a tear to your eye when they, it brought some puke up to my throat.

You're remembering the glory days of Austin Rivers. Jeff Green and Dwight Howard have made every team they've played on worse. And so, and Dwight's doing it by proxy. He's not even playing. I was about I was able to say Dwight hasn't played yet. Well, and Brad Beal and John Wall just don't like each other.

They can't help it anymore. Now they talk publicly about it. Well, to be fair, they weren't talking about each other, just to make that clear. Yes. They are always talking about each other. I don't think that's fair to say necessarily. Yes. Everybody that knows that situation, right?

Like, and even when they get interviewed about it, it's like, oh, we just have different interests and we just don't, you're right? Like, this has been for three years now, kind of been going on. And do you remember all that when they hit that run, when Wall was out last year and how weird that got with Gortot and we're just a team now. And if you would read Beals quotes, like for whatever reason, it just, I don't know, the chemistry's wrong there. Everything is wrong, man.

Like everything. When I said everything, I literally mean that because of the fact that up and down the board, you're talking about offensive struggles from their best player, John Wall right now. Offensive struggles for him defensively, they are just completely disconnected. It's tough to tell watching on TV, but it seems like there's just, Not a lot of communication. Seems like there's not a lot of passion, like hands down, not seeing guys rotate. They're not getting back in transition.

Up and down the board, the team is just not good right now, everywhere. And that's where it's like, you know, maybe. Maybe Dwight Howard helps protect the rim a little bit. Maybe he helps them on the defensive boards. Maybe he gives him a rim runner on the offensive end of the floor. Or he could derail things further as well. And when there's another guy who's expecting to touch the ball on the offensive end, when they've already had that statement

in about, I'm paraphrasing here, but I think it was along the lines of, you know, guys want touches, have to know their role, something like that. I think it was in regards to Otto Porter. And now you have another guy coming in who's expecting to touch the ball. And Otto Porter's also been a zero on offense too. They pay Auto Porter $26 million. Like we had the discussion earlier about third wheels, right? Like, I mean, if I'm paying you $26 million, you can't be shooting 40% from the field,

giving me 10 points a game. Something's got to give here. I mean, that is a massive financial commitment for a guy that is doing so little so far. So obviously they've got to figure out the Porter thing too. All right. So do you think that this is just a horrible first six games or that they are in big trouble? They're in trouble. You do.

Yeah, I do. Like I said, it's everything with that team right now. And they'll probably get a little bit better, but they're going to be on that playoff bubble. All right, Kevin, we'll get back to it. First, I want to tell everybody about ZipRecruiter. Today's mismatch is brought you by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes.

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Houston is 1 and 4 with a negative 8.6 point differential. OKC 1 and 4 with a negative 6.8 and the Lakers are 2 and 5. Do any of those concern you greatly? Thunder, I think, do more than the others, because the fact is that they don't have a lot of shooting on that team. And I think the Lakers, despite the fact that they all, also don't have a ton of shooting. Their shooting is better than Oklahoma cities.

And they have, you know, despite the fact their defense is an eyesore, the Lakers. Their offense has been really good. I think Luke Walton did a good job of getting quality shots for his players, despite the fact they don't have a ton of high-end shooting. Whereas Oklahoma City, Chris, I mean, we talked about this last week. Besides a Breenas, there's not a lot of consistently plus shooters on their team besides stars with Paul Georgia course. But the role players is not a lot there.

then you lack your best defensive player in Andre Robertson. They're starting from the bottom right now. At one and four right now, it's going to be tough in the West. It depends on what amount of wins you're going to need to get into the playoffs. You're going to need 46 wins. You're going to need 47 wins. You're going to need 45 wins. It's tough, man.

Every game in the Western Conference is going to matter. But more so than the other teams you mentioned, Oklahoma City, is the one that I would be most worry about if it's in terms of getting into the playoffs. Yeah, and I'll be very fascinated. Houston plays Portland tonight, and I'll be keeping up with that because back Mr. Holmes every year for ESPN does this great article about, these are games your team is going to lose. And it's a schedule loss game. And one of them is actually tonight.

And it's because of the way the schedule falls, your team is more than likely going to lose said game. And it was Portland having to go to Houston tonight. So I'll be very interested. I'll be keeping an eye on that because that is marked as a, quote, schedule loss. The amount of games they've played in the amount of days. Of course, they played Indiana last night.

They'll fly to Houston and lose an hour in the process, turn around, have to play the rockets who have been off for a couple of days. And so I'm interested in seeing if that, right, because this is one of those where it's marked as this is a great opportunity for Houston to win, possibly run Portland, clean out of the building. So if they take a loss or that ends up being super tight, I would, I don't know. The Houston defense thing has been real so far. They have not figured out what to do with Carmelo.

And I covered Jeff Bezdelic here in Memphis, and he's a defensive genius. And he probably didn't get enough credit for how good their defense was last year. But obviously, he was one of their minuses for this upcoming season after they had lost Richard Mbamuete, Areza. But they also lost kind of their defensive coordinator with that team. And so the at least instant results have been rather poor, wouldn't you agree? And it wouldn't be the first time this happened. It happened after the 2014-15 season when the Rockets won 56 games, went to the Western Conference finals,

and then they started off 4 and 7 the following year under Kevin McHale, parted ways. Bickerstaff took over and then eventually they hired Dan Tony and that fixed things. They've been great since then. But it wouldn't be the first time that the Rockets went from really, really, really good to, these guys aren't meeting expectations one bit. And with the James Harden hamstring injury, he may not play in this game either. So it's still tough to give a full assessment of the team

when their best player isn't playing. However, that's part of the equation in the playoff race in the Western Conference. And he needs to get back and manage to stay healthy over the course of the year, of course. Yep. And then the other thing that we do need to mention because it has been a topic so far this season

is the Butler Towns thing. And the reason this became center stage is because Jimmy Butler took over in the fourth But Towns had a huge game too. It's games like last night where they beat the Lakers, and they are both simultaneously awesome that you sit there and go, why doesn't this work? You know what I mean?

Like when they are both, when they're both cracking like they were last night, Butler ends up with 32, 6, and 4. Towns gets 25, 16, and 6, and they're able to knock off the Lakers, and it's nights like that when you watch the T-Wolves and you think, well, geez, man, And that looks like the team that I wouldn't be wanting to play if they can ever throw it all together.

But I don't know. I don't know. I mean, obviously, Tom Tibido probably goes back as like, this is great. If you can get this towns and this Butler simultaneously, it's going to be unbelievable. I guess the issue has been that does not happen all that often. But it did last night. Maybe the issue was Andrew Wiggins. He didn't play in last night's game.

Good luck trying to find return for that. I mean, what can you possibly? honestly what could you possibly get it's not that for what it's worth because the fact is i don't know i'm just saying the last two wiggins miss as well and towns had some serious struggles to me the carl town's situation is one of the more disappointing ones in the league because here's a guy before that butler trade occurred was one of the blossoming great offensive talents in the league right and we now at this point we still only see those flashes because the usage isn't there um the opportunity isn't there and i hope at some time we do see a return to his second season where he was dropping 25 and 12 and looked like a guy that could

maybe someday drop, you know, maybe 30 points per game if the opportunity was there. And with this new situation, like, this is a rapid to the top of the conversation with Clay Thompson, right? Clay is a guy who's able to take on that secondary role and excel and flourish and take his opportunities when they're there and seek those opportunities. Carl Anthony Towns has been a bit more passive with opportunities at times, passing on certain shots that he should probably take. And maybe he's sacrificing too much more than he should. But I think a lot of it is you just need to feed that guy with his immense talent.

He also needs to figure out how to be the second guy. He can be the first guy on a team that loses a million games. But he's going to have to be the second guy. I think he can be the first guy. He's not an alpha. He's not. He's not a, give me the damn ball. I'm going to go win this game.

I think he can be. Now, come on, this is a personality thing. You worked long enough with the personality guy to know. This guy's not an alpha. I mean, hell, he took himself out of the game last week. Could you ever fathom Jimmy Butler taking himself out of a game? No way. But this is a thing.

Some of these guys are like that, and I've covered a bunch of them. Powell Gasol, he needed to go play with Kobe Bryant. Chris Bosch, he needed to go play with LeBron and Dwayne Wade. Kevin Love, probably best suited to be your second or third option. right? These are guys that could put up big numbers and did in losing or first round exit team situations. But their destiny became being able to be amazing second fiddles or third fiddles, right? That's when they're going to really win. I don't think you're ever going to win with Carl Towns as your best player.

No way. If you get the version of Carl Towns that can theoretically exist, then you can't. That guy doesn't exist. He may not. He doesn't yet, but he could. I mean, we saw the flashes in 16, 17 and since of what he can be on the offensive end of the floor, a potential 50, 40, 90 guy who can score from every single damn spot on the floor. We know that offensively that that's there. It's really about the defense and the level that he reaches there.

At Kentucky, he's a really good defensive player, bit it too many pump fakes, tried to block too many shots. But that aggression did show his potential as a room protector with his size and his, you know, at times, his agility on the perimeter. we've seen flashes of it and he's only 22 years old maybe when he's 26 27 28 he does figure it out defensively or maybe not it might not happen you can be right Chris

but what I'm just what I'm saying is is it can with Carl Towns he's drafted number one for good reason I'm aware he's an extremely talented player he's way better offensively than people expected him to be at this point especially your best player has to be a bulldog history has told us that

your best player's got to be a bulldog he does that kid ain't a bulldog he's going to be immensely talented. It reminds me so much of POW and Bosch and a lot of these guys, big guys, you know, that are not necessarily the guys that they don't have,

whatever that is that makes you say, give me the damn ball or this shit ain't happening no more. Like, you're missing that. Some guys are built like that. And to blame guys for being built like that, just accept it and then build with that in mind, is what I would say.

That's why when you added Jimmy Butler last year. You went to the playoffs for the first time in 14 years. Hell, they got, uh, what's it? Rose is trying to win six men of the year. He said, I saw yesterday. Do you see Derek Rose said that? He said, I'm trying to win six men of the year. It's interesting. Tom, Tibido, a couple weeks ago, said Derek Rose, when he's healthy, he's still one of the best players in the league. You buy it? You don't buy it. No, I don't. Do you buy it, Chris?

I love Derek Rose. I've known him since he was in college. He is not one of the best players in the league. No. There are time. I think there's five-minute flashes where he can look like it, but they're five-minute flashes. Five-minute flashes.

I like that. Those words are good together. Five-minute flashes. If you were watching a game and you would never watch a basketball game in my life, you would say, my God. Jeff Green's on that list, too. How dare you? How dare you?

Well, Jeff Green's on that list for sure. 100% is. He might be the face of the team. It's never five minutes in a row. That's two minute flashes. No. He has the occasional 35-point game where he just dominates.

Drain's of three, blocks a shot, scores in transition, big dunk shows up on highlight reels. Jeff Green has five-minute flashes. Do you think that's where all this started was when the beginning of the end for the Wizards was when Brad Beale compared him to LeBron James. We need an oral history on that quote.

What was going through his mind? I mean, Kevin, Kevin Garnett once said that Jeff Green can be one of the greatest players of all time. So, I mean, Farley Bail's not alone. Oh, I have seen outrageous things done with Jeff Green in mind.

You ain't got to tell me, I lived it, and it was horrendous, absolutely horrendous. It was going to take the Grizzlies over the top, going to possibly win the Western Conference because they added that missing piece

and I'm like, oh my God. That was a bad trade. After about three weeks, you realized this ain't the missing piece, my friend. That was a bad trade, Chris. I mean, that's still could bite Memphis. They're still paying for it. Well, yeah, with that draft pick,

top eight protected this year, top six protected next year, and then potentially unprotected in 2021. Dude, I'm not kidding you. There's like eight first round draft picks still like going around places. for Jeff Green, like still throughout the league. He has been part of like all kinds of horrible moves over the years.

It's bananas. Didn't they, they did it with the Clippers too? Yeah. That's how he ended up there. Oh, yeah, y'all. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. I wish you would write something nice about me so that I could have an amazing week like Clay Thompson did because obviously whatever the opposite of kiss of death is, you're that.

You write about a guy. I don't know about that. Print it and the first friggin' night he sets the all-time record for NBA three-pointers in a game. You're living right, Kev. Hey, man. The universe works for mysterious ways, man. Indeed, it does. Always a pleasure.

We will catch up again next Tuesday. Thanks for listening to The Mismatch. If you dig with your hand. Go give us a rating review on iTunes and we will talk to you next week.