The Ringer NBA Show - Knicks Offseason Thoughts and Expectations for the 2025-26 Season With Fred Katz

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

Wosny Lambre is joined by The Athletic’s Fred Katz to talk about all things Knicks. They discuss the coaching search that led to the Mike Brown hire and what Brown can help the Knicks improve on from last season. They also discuss realistic expectations for the Knicks this season (54:40) and which dark-horse contenders could challenge the Knicks and Cavs in the East (1:01:40). Host: Wosny LambreGuest: Fred KatzProducer: Isaiah BlakelyAdditional Production: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to a summer edition, off-season edition of the Ringer NBA show. I'm your host, Big Was, Waz, A.K.A. Wazzy Lambrey, and I'm joined by my brother, my partner, all the way from New York City. Fred Katz of The Athletic. What's going on, brother? Thank you for having me, man.

I appreciate it. Man, like, you know, they told me I could book a guest, and I'm like, what are the off-season stories that fascinate me. And I, you know, not to be a New York City homer, I immediately thought about the Knicks and their off-season. And, you know, I think they did a great job in free agency. We can get to that.

But the coaching search became a story because it was unlike any coaching search I've ever seen before. For like, have you ever seen something like this, Fred? Like, you've been doing this for a minute. it was it was strange it was strange i mean look i'll i'll be honest i wasn't completely shocked when they fired tips i was surprised but it's not like it came out of nowhere because i think heading into the playoffs i think everybody around there kind of had the impression like if they lose to detroit in the first round coaching staffs going to be out because what we kind of forget when we talk about the nicks having this great run legitimately great run to the eastern conference

finals and I think what any sane viewer would call a very successful season it's a very positive step successful season 100% like making the conference finals for the first time in 25 years that's a great accomplishment with the roster that you can keep together for the long haul and a lot of really good players who fit well together that's a that's a that's a great that's a great end of the season and that's a great accomplishment but what we kind of forget is that the regular season was I don't want to call it a mess because it wasn't a mess. They won 51 games,

and for the most part, they were obviously a good team, but there were a lot of warts on that team during the regular season, where McKell Bridges was just not looking like the guy who they hoped he could be on either side of the ball. They had weird fit issues.

Carl Anthony Towns was not responding great to wings guarding him as the season progressed, and the Knicks were not responding great to when wings guarded towns and put centers on Josh Hart, their bench was a little shallow. Like, that team had issues during the regular season. It was good.

It was imperfect. And a lot of that was covered up by them playing an amazing series against Boston. And McKell Bridges playing an incredible defensive series against Boston and Detroit. But going into the playoffs, really everybody around the team had the impression, okay, if they lose to Detroit, then coaching staff is out. And once they get to Boston, the impression was like, all right, they got to at least have a very competitive series against Boston. And then maybe we'll see what happens. But if they get the doors blown off them by Boston, that coaching staff definitely was paranoid.

It was going to be out. And then once they beat Boston, you would think, okay, you know what? They did the things they were supposed to do and you're okay. And during that Indiana series, I'm still getting the impression that like a lot of the people on that coaching staff, It feels like the goalposts would move a little bit. Like we got to beat Indiana. Like there was nobody there who was like, all right, we're okay. So that's interesting.

I don't think I heard that in all of the reporting that's been out there. You got the sense that even after making the conference finals, they internally, the coaching staff felt like this is do or die for us against the Pacers. Because that's kind of not what we were hearing. I shouldn't say that. I think most of the New York media was like Tibbs has kind of earned his right to make it to next season

because, yeah, the regular season was sloppy. Yeah, I mean, for me, like, you talked about the offensive fit issues. Like, Tibbs has never been a creative offensive coach. So I didn't kind of expect them to have some incredible offense. I thought they kind of even overachieved a bit on that end. Last year, when you consider all of the moving parts and all of the new things they had to incorporate,

the defense was so piss poor. And that's when I was just like, so what is Tibbs doing for this team? Because we know it's not Mike Dantone, Steve Kerr, you know, level offensive execution. And if they're not playing defense, what is Tim's actually doing? But then in the playoffs,

the defense kind of came together. And so I was like, hey, man, maybe they were just saving their energy for this moment and Tibbs is going to come. But to be sure, I was completely fine with the firing too. I think the firing was only part of the move, right? I mean, I'm on the record of saying that I wouldn't have fired tips. Just because the guy turned around the organization, he did, accomplished a ton,

has a great dynamic with the star player of the team. And that is so important. Yeah. Right. Like that it is so important that you have synergy between your head coach and your star player. That your star player backs your coach. And Jalen Brunson obviously has back tips since he was like five years old because Tibbs, he's known tips. Literally he has known Tibbs for so long that literally the first time he met Tibbs he cannot remember.

Because he was too young to retain memories. That's how long. He's known Tibbs because Rick Brunson, his dad played for Tibbs in the 90s and got incredibly, close with him. And then Rick was an assistant with Tibbs with Chicago and in Minnesota and then in New York. And the whole family is just really, really close with Tibbs. Like they were so close that the Brunson family motto is the magic is in the work. And the reason that's the Brunson family motto is because Tibbs used to say that to Rick when he coached him. Rick stole it from him. That's crazy. So like Sandra Brunson, Jaylin's mom, gets these shirts made up that say the magic is in the they'll work. And it's like, and they're like, that's not a Tibbs thing for us. That's the family. That's the family motto. So like, Jaylin was almost raised to play for Tibbs. So it's not a surprise that he then goes in place for Tibbs. And one of the reasons that he went to New York was because he wanted to play for Tibbs. It's not a surprise that he goes to New York. And Tibbs is the guy

who makes him a star. You know, like not saying, I'm not taking the credit away for. from doing. He didn't work. No, but like, yeah. It's not surprised that it worked great, you know. The synergy is, is obvious. And obviously, Rick Brunson is on the staff. We've, we've, everybody's talked about the familial dynamic of the New York Knicks.

And that's, and that's what I want to talk to you about because you're there. And it was genuinely shocking to me when you think about how the Knicks have put this together on this sort of la familia. It's a family. It's, you know, blood in, blood out, blah, blah, blah, kind of thing that they've done with Leon Rose and World Wide West and Tibadoe and the CAA and the Nova Nix. And even though they, you know, they got rid of DeVincenzo.

But, like, it felt like Tibbs was a made man over there. Like, how do you explain their decision to, like, aside from the off-court stuff, I mean on court, excuse me, how do you explain their decision to go anti what's been the, what's felt like the organizing principle and ethos of the Leon Rose regime? I think it is a number of factors, to be honest. I think James Dolan was very supportive of the decision, and he was sitting in on end of season exit interviews,

which is not necessarily the norm for an owner to do in those situations. And I think he was somebody who helped lead that decision for sure. I think there were certain players in the locker room who didn't see his eye to eye with Tibbs. Like two years ago, that team that lost to Indiana in the second round in seven when everybody got hurt, that was a Tibbs team. Yeah. Like Dante DiVincenzo, it's so far. funny to me that like Dante and Rick Brunson and Tibbs all had their thing in the preseason

game earlier last year and it was such a thing of like, oh, Dante's pissed at Tibbs. Man, Dante DiMincenzo loves Tibbs more than either of us love like our own mothers. Gosh. It is, it is crazy how much Dante de Manchenzzo loves Tibbs. I'll tell this story because I don't, I don't think, I don't think he would mind telling this story. So every year, the athletic does a anonymous player poll. And one of the questions is always which coach would you least like to play for?

And this year we actually changed the question to who do you think is the worst coach? But when it was which coach would you least like to play for, Tibbs would win that poll. So apparently this year, when Minnesota players were pulled, when Dante was already on Minnesota, Dante would follow around the reporters who were taking the answers. When it got to with your coach question, Dante would be like, you motherfucker, you better not say, Dante would go.

He's the far best. Like he was, he was gatekeeping Tibbs. Wow. That guy loves, loves Tibbs. Would, would play for him in a second because Dante is

honestly different personality type than Tibbs, same values. same mentality, same approach to work as Tibbs. And so he loves that. He loves a guy who meets him at his level because he's such an absurd competitor. And, you know, Hartnstein was not really a Tibbs guy his first year with the Knicks, I don't think. And then he started to listen to him and he was like, damn, everything this guy tells me ends up being right. Maybe I should just do that.

And he got way better. And then he was really behind him. He had a roster that was really behind him. I don't think Tibbs ever really worked great with Mikkel Bridges. I don't think the basketball fit, optimized great. I've always said Tibbs, when this is true for basically every coach, I think, you know, say for maybe Eric Spolster or something like that. We talk about coaches like, this guy's a good coach, this guy's a bad coach.

I think the reality is most guys who are good enough coaches to be NBA head coaches are great coaches for some people, good coaches for some people, bad coaches for other people, and horrible coaches for other people. Timbs was an amazing coach for Jalen Brunson, an amazing coach for Dante DiMincenzo. I don't think he was a great coach for Mikhail Bridges. I think you bring in certain people, maybe not an amazing coach for Ogen, Ninobe.

I know like those guys had disagreements on certain things. And like, I think when you have that sort of dynamic that can change from year to year, I think the Knicks felt like they needed They needed a change there The minutes were definitely a thing I know Tibbs always pushed against it But the minutes were definitely a thing

He was proven wrong about the minutes Like he started playing like Like Delam Right He's not a great player But he started getting minutes And it was fine Like there was no issue

When he finally decided to play these dudes It was like yeah Tim's like You should have been doing like he was ultimately proven wrong of his own theory when he finally relented these guys weren't a tire fire it was completely okay when these guys came in actually you know what i don't know if i agree really yeah i think i think he was in some ways proven right because they went the whole year playing guys a ton of minutes oh my god so they they had no major injuries they were the healthiest team in the playoffs.

And they made the conference finals in part because their good players played more. Like, in part because O.G. Anobey played a lot and he's really freaking good at basketball and he's better than whoever's behind him. And he played more. And he ended up being okay. Look, there's some stuff with the minutes with Tibbs that I was like,

all right, that's, that's a lot. Like there was, I remember, I will never forget being at Knicks Hornets in December. And the Knicks were up 24. And it was one of those games were like, Knicks take a huge lead early. And the game's just over in the first quarter. And they just coast the rest of the way. Knicks are up 24 with a minute 30 left. And Tibbs pulls Mikhail Bridges.

and it was the first time he pulled him in the whole game. He had played 46 and a half consecutive minutes and a game the Knicks were up 24. And I was like, that is not necessary. To me, the issue with the minutes with Tibbs was always the consecutive minutes. It was the long stretches because that's when you're tired and that's when you land funny on an ankle or whatever else. But like, Knicks won games in part because they played really good players,

more than other games played really good players. But to me, that's an indictment of the coaching, though. Like, the idea, like, if you're, if when your best players play, you're not dominant, like, and the team was made to be dominant when those groups get together, that's an indictment, like, to me, right? Like, when you think about the Nuggets starting lineup or you think about OKC's best lineups or when you think about the top. about the top teams, when they play their best guys, those lineups are dominant. And that wasn't the case for the NICs. So to me, it's like you're making up for something by doing that.

Like, the reason you have to do that is because you haven't made this group coalesce in a way that it's unnecessary. And that's why to me it's like tips, like, y'all not even blowing people off the court when you do this. like just play some other guys, whatever. So go ahead. That's fair. I mean, look, to me, to me,

that's actually a different conversation, where there's the minutes, which is just total minutes guys play, and then there's the distribution of minutes. And I think the distribution of minutes was a problem. Like that starting lineup was not as good as it should have been, or at least as not as good as it could have been. And what we saw is that,

that's those five guys playing together for more than any other five-sum in the league for the whole year. And we didn't see experimentation of five out very much. We didn't see Deuce McBride play in the Josh Hart spot. Like that, that, if you take out Josh Hart from the starting lineup and put in Deuce McBride, that lineup played almost never. Crazy. All season. And that kind of stuff. To me, it's less about the total minutes and more about the distribution of minutes and the wanting to try out lineups.

And when you have a team, that's a really good team that you know is making the playoffs, that you know is going to win anywhere from 48 to 55 games. I would rather win 49 and know exactly what all of my best lineup combinations are and be able to have as much data as possible on every single possible lineup combination and on every single place. player. I would rather have that heading into the playoffs than win 54 and know that my starting lineup has played twice as many minutes as any other lineup in the league. And it's not that good. They're, you know, plus five per 100 possessions, which is solid. But in order for that team to be awesome, that starting lineup had to be had direct teams. And it didn't. And they didn't find remedies for that. And I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that 100%. I think Mike Brown is probably going to experiment more with that kind of stuff

and probably build more of a sample on things. We're going to get to Mike Brown, and we've dumped on Tibbs enough and his shortcomings. You don't think he should have got fired. I'm okay with the move, but it's with caveats. Here's my problem with the move.

Why I think it's a problem. I'm old enough to remember when the Knicks go out and get their guy, meaning you have a fucking crap team you gotta give Larry Brown $40 million. A shit team. You're like, yo, this is like the best pure basketball coach in the league.

He's a New York guy. Let's go blow him out the water with an offer. Bring him to fucking Madison Square Garden. Same with Dan Tony. Same with Phil fucking Jackson. They had to beg this guy to get out of retirement, to do a job he never did, paid the shit out of him.

Broke records to do something. so. Now Boston is down. The Pacers are cooked. You just went to the conference finals. Why the fuck are we not doing this for Eric's bolster? Why aren't we doing this for

Steve Kerr? Why aren't we getting the best fucking coach in America to come coach which is clearly a championship level, NBA finals level type of team? That's why I'm just like the tips thing is so stupid. What are you doing?

doing this for. If it's not to do that, I don't, like, I don't understand this coaching, like, sort of process. It makes no sense to me. Like, why not just go to the Miami? He'd be like, yo, Mickey Harrison, what's he going to take? We're willing to, we're willing to guarantee $140 million for Eric Spolster. Seven years, $20 million a pop. We're willing to make this guy the highest paid coach ever. What do you want for that, Nikki? Aronson. Let's do a deal. Let's go out and get the best. Yo, Steve Kerr, you already got

four rings. You already did X, Y, and Z. Come find a new challenge in New York. We're going to pay the hell out of you. Fucking Joe Lake will be playing with you negotiation-wise. He'd be treating you like you ain't nobody. Come to New York. We're going to pay the fuck out of you.

Like, why we're trying to get interviews with email and doka? Like, what the What fuck was this process, Fred Katz? I don't think any of those guys were available. Like, I don't think... I don't believe in that. I don't think if you call, like, they did try to do that.

Like, they tried to do that with Emeo Doka. Okay. Like, Emo Doka is a great coach. We can agree. Himo Doka's an awesome coach. I don't know that he's what the Knicks need, but sure. But he isn't... He goes to a place and that team plays discipline

and plays hard and guard. and all of a sudden become smart. You remember what the Rockets were before Emu Dukkah got there? They were the most undisciplined team in the NBA and it wasn't even close. You want to hear something funny about the Rockets before EMA got there? I remember the Warriors played them in the post game.

Jemar Green was like at a certain point, like he was sticking up for Silas. He was like at a certain point, players have to not be stupid. Like that's literally what he said after playing the Rockets. Like, this is one of the dumbest teams. And, like, I've never seen a player defend the opposing coach in a post-game press conference to be like, no, like, these dudes are playing like knucklehead. So you're 100% right.

And then Imuja Jaka gets there and they're like one of the most disciplined teams in the NBA. Yes. And they're really good. Yes. And the talent is all developing. And they are smart. They are disciplined. They run a beautiful system defensively.

They're awesome. And it helps to have. and Thompson, but they, they are awesome. Emeyodoka's great. And he did the same thing in Boston. Takes over in Boston. And it's like, holy crap, this, this team guards, this team plays gorgeous basketball. Emuadogica is great.

And they called on Emeo doka. I think the Rockets very unkindly told them to go screw themselves. And that was it. I don't think any of these teams were amenable to it. I don't know if they made a call on Eric Spolstra. I would bet an unbelievable amount of money that if they just made a, they wouldn't have an opportunity to offer expulsar anything.

That like if they called, if like James Dolan called Mickey Erison or if Leon Rose called Pat Riley and was like, what can we do to get Eric Spolstra? I like Pat Riley, Pat Riley, I can't even imagine. Pat Riley would say so foul

that neither of us could even, even think up. It's Pat Riley. Like, neither of us could even think up what it would be. So I don't think you're getting that guy. Like, I think what they felt like they needed was they felt like they needed less than an, an upgrade in a vacuum. Because, like, I think, I think Mike Brown is a very good coach. He's a lot of success.

I'm a fan of Mike Brown. He's a good coach. I'm going to get into my problem with the hire, but, like, I'm a fan of Mike Brown's coaching. And Tibbs is a good coach. Yes. Both guys have had success everywhere they've been. Let's say they're in the same tier of coaching. We can debate who's better, but let's say they're around the same tier.

Yeah. Around the same tier, right? I think what the Knicks felt like they needed less than an upgrade in a vacuum, less than like, yeah, like Eric Smolster is the best coach in the league. Eric Smolster is one of the greatest coaches, like in any sport of all times. He's unbelievable. He's obviously in a different tier than probably anybody in the NBA. I think what the Knicks felt like they needed wasn't necessarily, oh, we need an upgrade from Tibbs on like if you do the rankings of the best coaches, we need somebody hired in Tibbs. What we need is somebody who's going to have a different approach and a different voice,

somebody who's going to be able to figure out the stuff with bridges, somebody who's going to be able to figure out the stuff with OG, somebody who's going to be able to maybe experiment more in the regular season when we know this roster is very good. And we don't care if we win 50 games at the regular season or if we win 54. What we want to have is this entire set of data on all the lineups that work and all the players that work and we want to see if Deuce McBride with the starters works and that kind of stuff. So we're not just kind of throwing shit at the wall during the playoffs and seeing if Dilan Wright sticks.

Like, I think that's what they wanted. They wanted somebody who I think was more collaborative, specifically even with the coaching staff. They wanted more of a influx and a flow of ideas, I think, from the coaching staff up to the coach. And I know that's how Mike Brown operated in Sacramento. and that was something they were very impressed with. In some ways,

Mike Brown is very similar to Tibbs. Mike Brown practices more than Tibbs does. People think Tibbs practices all the time. Tibbs requires people to physically be there because what he does is he does like these walkthroughs and he does longer film sessions than usual. And his practices and his walkthroughs and his shootarounds are very mentally strenuous.

He quizzes players. like he'll be like all right they'll draw something up on the whiteboard during a walkthrough or during a film session and he'll just be like all right Jalen what plays this and you know that the other team runs like upcoming opponent

you got no top five most run plays you got no Jalen what play is this Josh what plays this and he'll just run it and you got to get it right like his practices are very very you got to be locked in and they're very like intellectually stimulating it's like going into

a really intense, you know, advanced class with a really intense and passionate and strict professor. Mike Brown practices a lot and like practices for real. He wants to go live. Like, Tibbs almost never goes live. Like Mike Brown wants to go, wants to go live. He wants to practice a lot. He's very defense oriented. He's super detail oriented. He's very obsessive about that kind of stuff. There are a lot of things that are very similar about Mike Brown that there are their Tibbs. And to be clear, those are all great traits for a coach. I love, I love all those traits in a coach. Like, having traits similar to Tibbs, that's great. Tis is really good. He's really good. I hear everything you're saying on Mike Brown. And I, like,

and I did want to get into the qualities of Mike Brown. I'm just saying, Just to put a bow on it, like, yes, I know in practice, Eric Spolstra and Steve Kerr aren't available. I just know when you got the money in business and in the NBA with these guys are like all in league with each other, if you really, really, really set your mind on making it happen, I think it could have happened.

Of course, it would have cost you, right? You would have had to convince Spolstra or Kerr to start tugging on. that end themselves. It's not going to just be some passive thing where it's like, we knock on the door and Mickey Arison answers. And we're just like, hey, can Eric come outside the plate? No.

You would have had to be in cahoots with Spolstra in his representation or Kerr in his representation. You couldn't have pulled it off on your own. I just think where there's a will, there's a way, particularly with the coaching stuff, where there aren't these hard and fast rules, like a salary cap and a collection. collective bargaining agreement, et cetera, et cetera.

There's ways to paint outside the lines. And for whatever reason, the Knicks decided for this team, it's not worth it. Mind you, you already paying the shit out of OG. You already gave up seven first round picks for Bridges. But for the coach, we're just going to passively play it safe. I don't understand that approach, Fred. I get it. I like Mike Brown, and I'm going to get into that.

I just think this approach is weird when you consider the way that they've gone about. doing this roster, going out and getting talents. It just felt so gun-shy to me for a team that's so obviously all in. It's weird. But I want to get into, before we get into Mike Brown and the qualities that he brings, another reason why I'm unsure about the hire is these dudes, particularly Brunson specifically. He's now been made into probably the biggest athlete in the number one media market in the world, right?

He is, he's beyond a star. He is something beyond that. He's gotten there by playing a particular way that, in my opinion, is suboptimal for Nick's team success. 60% usage in clutch time by a 5 foot 11 guard is a mistake. I'm sorry. I get it.

It's made Jalen Brunson into who he is, but I don't think that Nix can win a championship playing like that. And the idea that Mike Brown is going to be the one to come in and tell that dude that he needs to do something, I think radically different. You're going to have to sell that to me, Fred Katz. Mike Brown's going to be the one? That's why I think bringing somebody in

with some level of gravitas and a pedigree that even the players, even Jalen Brunson, has to be like, hold on now. This is Steve Kerr. This is not Greg Popovich, but you get what I'm saying. This is X, Y, and Z. I might have to listen to this.

Like, why are they going to listen to Mike Brown? And if they're not, that means they're just going to, do the same shit they did last year. That's my issue with the Brown hype. And tell me why I'm wrong. Yeah, I don't agree with you. And I'll tell you why.

I think that might be true for certain stars in the league. That's just not how Jalen Brunson operates. Jalen is so obsessed with winning, so psychopathically competitive, in a way that is not individually oriented. I think Jalen played that way, not because that's how he plays. I think Jalen played that way because that was how it was coached,

and that's what he thought was the best way for them to win in that moment. I'll tell you something. So two years ago, Julius Randall gets hurt in a game against Miami. He dislocates his shoulder out for the year. the Knicks had to reorient their offense after that because Randall was was their outlet in a lot of places, right? Like this was Brunson's second year with the Knicks

and it's really Brunson's team at this point. Brunson runs the offense. But Randall is the outlet. Randall gives them a second way to get into the paint. He can close guys up. He can drive. And he was having a good year. Actually, a really good year.

He made an All-Star team. He was having a really good year for them. And with no Randall, teams could just low. up on Brunson. So what did the Knicks do? They changed the way that they used Jalen Brunson. He's always been good running around screens off the ball. They started using him way more running around screens. So I'm looking at the numbers right now. So Randall gets hurt on January 27th of that season. After January 27th of that season, Jalen Brunson ran around. Let's see. Jalen Brunson ran around

715 off ball screens. How many players in the NBA ran around more off ball screens Steph Curry? Nope. You're close. What is Steph's teammate? Clay Thompson?

Not the Morris teammate. Clay Thompson. That's the only guy. The only guy. Jalim ran around the second most off ball screens in the league for the rest of that season. And it worked.

They were able to get him the ball around curls. He was able to play make off the coach. You're getting me excited about the next season. He was able to get to his floater. He was really good at it. And why did he do it? Because Tibbs came to him and said, I think with Julius out, this is the best way to use you.

And Jalen said, okay, sure. With Jalen, the only thing he cares, He is very, very, very smart when it comes to basketball. And he thinks like a coach because he's the son of a coach. A lot of sons of coaches are like this. A lot of sons of coaches think this way. And so with Jalen, I don't think it matters who gives him the message. And I think it barely matters how someone gives him the message.

Because he's able to take things very harshly and he's able to take things that he doesn't want things sugar-coded to him. He wants the full message in order to get better. And if you want to know why, all you got to do is go look up the video of his dad coaching him when he was like 12 years old. And his dad saying things to him that nobody has ever said to anybody else ever. And you're like, oh my goodness, how is he able to deal with this? So Jalen can be coached in any way because of the way that he was raised and because of that. And with Jalen, the way that you get him to buy into something is you tell him something that's really smart. And then you show them, here's why I think it's going to work.

And you show them the plan and you map it out and you show them the video and you pull out the clipboard and you show them everything. And you say, this is what I think is going to work. This is the best way to win. And if you're smart, Jalen's going to ask follow-up questions. And they're going to be smart follow-up questions. And if you've got good answers and you're smart and you're thinking it's going to work, Jailen's going to be like, this is great.

Amen. So I don't think Jalen gives a crap Whether first of all, I I do think you're kind of underselling Mike Brown. Like, no, no, no, no, I'm going to get into Mike Brown. Mike Brown is not a first time head coach. Bro, he's Mike Brown, I'm not saying I personally Think if Mike Brown is allowed to coach,

Knicks are going to be a way better team than they were last year. I really do personally think that if you watch his evolution as a coach when he took over Sacramento spending all that time in Golden State you watch Sacramento's offense it's way prettier than everything the Knicks did last year

and this is what goddamn demon is a bonus a bonus and DeAnon Fox who I like those two guys are not in the same planet of offensive talent of Carl Towns and like it's not even close and what he was able to do with them,

I'm in on Mike Brown, but I know NBA players aren't always in on the guys that me and you like, Fred. They have these weird things where it's like, I'm not listening to that guy. I'm not, what the fuck does he know? But, like, they have these weird things.

They will get a coach fired because they don't think a coach knows what he's doing. I'm just saying Mike Brown doesn't come in as unimpeachable. You know, like, There is a way to sort of poo-poo what he's done. I'm not saying that I would personally do that, but we know that players, for whatever reason, will see a guy and be like, this ain't it,

and do whatever they feel like doing. That's all I'm saying. Totally. I'll tell you this. And also, I want to say this one last thing, I'm so I can let you go. Yeah. I love to have my mind changed,

and Fred Katz is slowly turning me on the New York. mixed season right now you're right you're totally right with what you're saying i'm just saying i don't think that concept is specific to jalen brunson i don't think it applies to jalen brunson he thinks differently he's a different kind of guy he's a different kind of guy uh and i think he cares about three things and if you meet those three things he will back you number one are you going to do what's best for the team over what's best for the individual. If you do what's best for the individual, you're going to piss him off. Number two, are you going to meet his work ethic? Are you going to be there working as hard as he is every second? And if you're not, he's not going to be happy about that. And if you are,

he will take you under his win. He's, for example, really close with Deuce McBride. Because Deuce McBride is a worker. And he's a competitor. And he shows up every day. He's a very unselfish teammate. And he never complains about not getting time with the starters or anything like that. Nobody knows how Deuce McBride feels about that. Nobody knows because he never has said anything. And he wouldn't. And he's very close with Deuce McBride because of that.

Was not the case with the previous young Nick crew? That wasn't the case with IQ and R.J. Barron. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Look, I don't think IQ was actually IQ never really seen. said that much it's not like he was in there being like i need more time i need this however it became clear that he wanted to get paid like a starter and when he was playing 24 minutes a game in his last year with the nix that just wasn't really going to happen and so there was a disconnect

there but i wouldn't i wouldn't say he was like a bitching wrong time yeah yeah he wasn't like a problem like there wasn't anyone in that locker room who like didn't like him or anything like that but they were also like, it was more of a vibe with quickly of like, yeah, he wants to get paid. And then they were like, yeah, of course he wants to get paid. It was like guys being like, yeah, I get it.

Like, why wouldn't you want to get paid? I want to get paid too. But we have Jalen Brunson. Right, but we have Jalen. Like they were more just like, yeah, it sucks for him. That sucks for him, you know? But like, I don't think there was any ill will to him for him on a personal level because I don't think he ever acted.

Like there are guys who want to get paid and they become unprofessional. I've never heard any stories about him being unprofessional or anything like that. But everybody knew. It was a notoriously really hard work. Everybody knew where he stood. But everybody knew where he stood. So like you wanted to get paid. And then he did.

And he got paid more than anybody thought he was going to get paid too. And with with Jay Lynn, it's the three things. It's, are you going to meet my work ethic? are you going to, are you going to do what's best for the team all the time? And then it's, are you going to have a level of like detail orientation and care for what you do?

Mike Brown is really detail oriented. I wrote a story a couple months ago about kind of like his very obsessive compulsive tendencies, not just in basketball, but like in life. He's very, very detail-oriented. I think that will actually mesh well with Brunson. Those are the things that he cares about. And if you can get him on that, like, he'll buy in.

Like, he really just wants to. There's a reason why they made him the captain. It's not because he's the best player on the team. It's because of his personality. There's approach. Yeah. those traits to his approach. To me, Mike Brown, job number one is this idea that Carl Towns can be some kind of

decoy or some kind of afterthought in how you attack the best defenses that just can't be. And for too much of the Knicks' most important possessions of the season, Carl Towns was a non-factor. And I just think that was suboptimal, man. It's not just that you're paying him that much. It's like what he actually has to offer. He has way more to offer to an offense than what the Knicks were asking of him last year.

And to me, that's a Tibado thing. Right? And again, it's like, well, we rode in on the jailing ship. we're going to sink with the jailingship. To an extent I get that. And Jalen, like, let's not make no mistake. Like, this guy is the best clutch player in the fucking NBA. Like, I understand the tendency to go to run towards that.

I just, you can't be the best team in the East playing that way. Like, this can't be 2001 Iverson and the fucking Pips. Like, you have Carl Townsor your team. You have OG. You have Mikhail who's now paid up, right? Like, they're not. needs to be a focus on incorporating all of these guys. And Mike Brown, to his credit in Sacramento, man, like they did have a more sort of the

ball finds energy approach to offense, which I personally have more of a taste for than what Brunson is doing in the clutch where he's pounding the shit out the rock, possession after the possession. And so talk to me about like what you think Mike Brown is going to do differently. Because the next, like, and that's why I got to give it up to Leon and them. Like, they saw it. We all could see it. It's like the best teams don't play like this.

Indiana doesn't play like this. OKC doesn't play like this. Denver doesn't play like this. And so I'm happy that the front office had the vision to be like, what we're watching is in championship quality. How is Mike Brown going to address these issues? Well, I think it's also not just Mike Brown. It's also like Chris Gent,

assistant who he brought in, who's going to be responsible for the line of the offense and is really well respected. It's going to be Ricky Fois, who's another guy who's been with Mike Brown before, who's almost this very, it's very analytically slanted. They have a,

they're retaining a good amount. of assistant coaches, but they have a number of assistant coaches, too, that are going to be doing it. And I think one of the things that they liked about Mike Brown was that you mentioned that offense in Sacramento. So it was 22, I guess, Mike Brown's first year in Sacramento where he goes there and that team makes the playoffs for the first time since, you know, the Van Burenne. Since Hidal Turkiclu, yeah. Yeah, the Hito-Turclu. It's like Monroe Doctrine. So they make the playoffs at the first time and forever.

And they have the number one ranked offense in the league. And it was the most efficient offense of all time based on points per possession. And Mike Brown will be the starting center was Demonti Sabonis. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't love this. I don't love this whole shitting on DeMontas thing, by the way. It's a bit I've been doing for three years.

The bonus has his flaws. Holy crap. That dude can pass and he is so strong. Yeah, he plays hard. He has a great motor. He does. And he's so strong. Yeah.

Like there is a reason he's led the league of rebounds three years in the row. He is so strong. He's a good player. How many centers can grab a defensive rebound, lead a fast break, and it's like, it's like what you want. It's like, oh, shit. That defense is screwed. He's not on the same planet of offensive players.

as Carl Towns. They're not... No, he's not as good as Carl Towns. It's not even like... I'm talking about just... Offensively, what you bring to the table is just like... There's no...

There's no contest. I'm not arguing he's not as good as Carl Anthony Towns. I'm just saying... You make the best offense in the league out of Demandis Sabonis. You deserve some credit. And...

And he's Jewish. Sabonis is? Yeah, he just converted. Oh, my... God, there's a, if there is finally, between him and Dennyovdia, we finally have some good basketball players in the NBA.

Somebody get Omri Kaspey on the line. No, forget about it. That was all we had before. All we had was Omri Kaspe. And we had like Dolph Shays in the 1950s. Now we've actually got Sabonis. You had Jordan Farmer? Jordan Farmer.

Yeah, no. Sabonis, the All-Star, NBA player. Denny Avdia is really good. Denny Avdia is good. Very, be very happy that you mentioned him. Danny Avdi is really good. We got two legit,

good Jewish players. And I'm very, very excited about that. It's really, it's really inspiring. Cibonis is crazy right now, Fred Katz, but we're going to allow it.

We're going to allow it. But so Mike Brown goes into that, that team, and they start, they start running it really around Sabonis, right? Like that whole offense is about the D.

Aaron Fox is downhill off of Sabonis dribble handoffs. And part of the reason they have that offense is because it's not really, I mean, it is a Mike Brown thing. Don't get me wrong. He implements it. But he's got two assistants there. Jay Triano, who's now in Dallas and has been a head coach before. And Jordy Fernandez is not well respect. Now the head coach of the Nets.

Jordi Fernandez, another guy who I swear by like, I think he is a fantastic coach. he did a really, really good job. He did too good of a job last year. Facts. Like he screwed him. Facts. He screwed his own team. He was too good. They were like, oh, crap.

First time I'd coach, we thought there'd be a learning curve. This guy's just winning games with nothing off the bat. Yeah, no, he's really good. And so Jordy Fernandez and Jay Triano were very, very instrumental in putting together that offense. And Mike Brown was for a lot of his career, he was a defensive guy. When he first went to Golden State as a assistant, he actually technically ran the offense. However, I've spoken to people from Golden State during that time. And they certainly don't make me people there speak incredibly highly.

People love Mike Brown over there in the Bay. Yeah, they certainly don't mean this as a slight. But basically what they've said to me is like, yeah, Mike Brown went there. But like we already kind of had this unbelievable offense already intact. like running the office. It's not like he built it from scratch. It was his job. It's not really about building it, Fred.

It's like understanding principles and concepts of why and what is working and how you get it to. And like watching it every day and be like, oh, that's why this thing works and being able to take that and apply it somewhere else in a different context. Like, I don't need the guy to be, you know, the inventor of seven seconds and less, right? Like, you don't need to be some revolutionary offensive mind. But he's there every day and clearly gain an understanding about what makes quality offensive basketball. Yep, for sure. And the reason why I bring up the assistance and stuff is because I think I know part of the reason why the Knicks liked Mike Brown was because of that collaboration stuff. And when people hear collaboration, they think collaboration with the front office.

And that's part of it. But there's also collaboration with the players and there's collaboration with your coaching staff. And Mike Brown was able to say, all right, Jay Triano and Jordy Fernandez came up with this offense. This looks real good. I'm going to implement that. That's better than what I came up with. I'm going to recognize that. I'm going to have the self-awareness and the humility to recognize that and do that.

And I'll handle the stuff I'm really good at. The stuff that is not as much my strength because nobody's perfect, I'm going to recognize it's not as much my strength. I'm going to hire people who are going to work with me who are going to be really good at those things. And I'm going to let them do it. And I'm smart enough to be able to recognize, okay, this is good or this is bad. I know enough to be able to recognize something's good, to recognize something is not good

when I see it. And I know enough to be able to ask the questions. Mike Brown is known as a pretty collaborative coach. And one of the things that I spoke to one of his former assistant coaches, he was telling me, what you have to do is if you have an idea, he always wants you to come up to him with the idea. But what he does is his practice is he will then ask you ridiculously difficult follow-up questions to your idea to make sure that you have. And he's like, he's not doing it to be a jerk. No, so that you actually have thought this through.

He wants to know that you've gone like 12 layers deep on this. because that's how he expects guys to be, which is, by the way, why I expect him and Jalen Brunson. To mesh because they have similar approaches there. And so if you can do that and you can go those 12 layers deep, he'll be like, okay. And then he might be like, we're doing your idea. Yeah.

And so a lot of it will fall on kind of how he comes up with this stuff with his staff as well, which he's still in the process of hiring. I expect them to hire at least one or two other people. I mean, it's getting kind of late, bro. Like, it's about to be September. They hired it late. Yeah, fair. You know, like, they didn't fire tips until June because they had such a late run.

It's an unusual timeline because it was an unusual firing. Normally, a firing habit, team doesn't make the playoffs, fire him in middle of April, and then you do it. And it's like, I don't think they're going to hire, like, a high up number one assistant. I think that's Chris Jett. But, but like, I think they're going to add, at least one or two other people to their staff. I think they're going to add a analytics person to their staff would be my guess. I know that's something Mike Brown values.

They had somebody last year who worked closely with Tibbs on that, but he left. And so I think they're going to hire somebody to replace there. They had another analytics person leave too. I don't know what they're going to do about that. But I think they're going to, I think they're going to bring in some more people. And it's going to depend on it's going to depend on. it's going to depend on the staff. But I imagine the offense will look different.

And I also wonder, like, towns was unbelievable in the first half of the season. And then as the year went on, teams started to realize, let's just put wings on him. And that's something that teams have always done. And they always did it when they had elite smalls. So like Boston would always do it

because Boston would put Tatum on him. It's almost like the dark principle. basically with towns yeah porzingis gets that treatment too uh boss would do it with drew holiday what i always thought was kind of the the change in tone was at the end of 2024 end of december the nicks played two games in washington against the wizards and they won both those games towns had huge games in both those games but just in champagney guarded him for both of those games. And that to me was like the first time where I was like, oh, like there's a team doing

this and they're doing it with a guy who's not. Very good. Yeah, they're not doing it. Teams were doing it when they had a guy who was, you know, an awesome wing defender. You know, Houston did it with Dylan Brooks guarded him. Like Dylan Brooks is competitive as hell. Say what you want about Dylan Brooks. I don't think anyone's ever accused him of not fighting.

eating hard and being physical and that dude can guard. And so like that, those are the types, Drew Holiday, those are the types that were doing it. And that was the first time we saw a team do it because they were just like, we're going to put a wing on him. And what happens is when town has a wing on him, the Knicks started running pick and rolls. There was a center guarding Josh Hart. The Knicks would run pick and rolls at the center. So the Knicks, so Brunson would start running more pick and rolls with Josh Hart than he would with towns. And towns would kind of be absent from the.

offense at the end of the year I did a story I went through every single next game I counted whether towns had a wing or a small as his primary defender or a wing as his primary defender and I went through the pick and roll data for each of the games and in games where there was a big as to towns as primary defender he ran 27 pick and rolls per 100 possessions or per game I should say and when he had a small as his primary defender, he only ran 16 pick and rolls. So 11 fewer. It was almost in half.

To me, that's crazy because the guy who's guarding Jalen Brunson, you want him to switch on the towns. That's something you should invite. Like, I don't know. Again, whatever. I'm not an NBA coach. We can get into that

later in the season and we'll see how it goes. But just you know, to sort of tie up on the Mike Brown thing. Again, like when my Nick fan friends were hitting me about the high, I was like, I think Mike Brown is a good as coach. I think if he's allowed to coach the team that they will be better. I don't know that he will be allowed to.

Fred Katz is up here telling me today. Take it to the bank. He's going to be allowed to implement his shit. The guys are going to, he's going to have a level of buy-in from day one. And I think that's incredible. I think Nick fans should be excited about that. I just want to get you out of here. here because I do want to get you on the record, man.

What is an acceptable outcome of the next season? I have two answers. So after the Knicks fired Tibbs, the front office put out a very short statement that said that they were, quote, singularly focused on winning a title. And the reason that they made the change to move on from Tom Thibber. Bidot was because they were singularly focused on winning a title and they felt like this was the move they had to make in order to accomplish that. Which you don't have to read between the lines to say the Knicks think this is a title team and their coach is holding them back from being a title team. Now, I will say, I don't agree with that.

Okay. I don't agree. I think there are tons of coaches who are labeled as you can't win a title with this guy, and then they win a title, and then we're like, that's a championship winning coach. Michael Malone,

you couldn't win a title with him. It was too rigid. Mike Boodenholzer, he couldn't win a title with him. He was two ridges. I mean, Doc Rivers got the full treatment. Doc Rivers, you couldn't win a title with him. Then he won a title.

Then it was like, Doc Rivers is a championship winning coach, and now we're like, Doc Rivers, you can't win a title with him. Doc Rivers has gone in a million different directions. Like a horse shoe. Yeah, 100% Frank Vogel. Same thing. Can't rent a title with Frank Vogel.

And then you win a title with Frank Vogel. And I would put Tibbs in that category as a guy you can't win a title with until you actually win a title. So you disagree in the idea that Tibbs is a guy that you can't win a title. Okay. Yeah. I disagree with that. But you agree with the idea that the Knicks have a championship roster? No.

I don't. I don't agree with that. that. I think they have a really good roster. And I think they have a roster that could win the title. But I don't think they're the best team of the league. Oklahoma City's,

Oklahoma City is the best team in the league. That being said, from the Knicks perspective, because they put out that statement, the organization has to say like, if they don't at least make the finals,

then they didn't meet their goal. Because they explicitly said their goal. And that was it. And quite honestly, I thought it was a swipe at Tibbs. And I, that man did so much for that organization and took so much heat for things of that organization when nobody else would talk publicly. I didn't love that.

I thought it was unnecessary. I didn't really like that in that statement. I will say a successful season for them is, it depends on how good Cleveland is. I'm going to probably pick them to win the east. Pick who? Cleveland or the Knicks? I'm going to probably pick the Knicks to win the East. Okay.

I'm probably going to pick them to win the east. So it kind of depends on if Cleveland is able to overcome their playoff demons. But I want to pick the Knicks to win the East. And I'm going to say like, it's hard to say if a team makes the conference finals and Cleveland is awesome. I think anything less than a hyper competitive Eastern Conference finals showing where you either win or it's just a crazy competitive series you've underachieved in this Eastern Conference. I agree because the East is too weak. You lose to Orlando in the second round. Or Atlanta.

That's a failure. Milwaukee. Or Detroit, who you beat last year. that's a failure. So, I mean, don't forget, was they, they, bro, they could have lost that Detroit series. They barely beat Detroit. They could have lost that.

They barely beat Detroit. Like, that was a six game series, and they were up three, one, but like, game four in Detroit, they, they, they won that game on, because of a terrible call. That's why they won that game. Yeah.

If a terrible call at the end of that game is not made, Detroit wins that game and it's two-two. they barely beat Detroit. Then they then they lose game five to make a three two at home in what could have been a closeout game. And game six, they barely win.

Like Detroit was that was a rough series. That was a close series. Every game, I think the final five games of that series was within, were within one possession. And it was a series

where it felt like they had no answers on defense. Like, they were searching. and Detroit was not some sick offense. They were, whatever, again. But you know what? They found something with their wings defensively in that series because what happened was for the whole year,

it was basically Mikhail Bridges on the point of attack and OG on the big forward. That was a mistake. Well, they flipped it for the playoffs. And you had OG on Kate Cunningham. And you had Mikhail Bridges. more off the ball. And OG did a great job.

And Bridges in the playoffs reached a level that I think the Knicks were hoping that they were going to get from him and didn't see from him the whole year. And what's crazy, if you actually look at the game logs, it's not like

this guy was like lighting it on fires. He was just so much more impactful than like you felt McHale Bridges way more in games than you did all regular season. And I think that's what is going to take. I think McHale, OG, they have to take more ownership of the offense,

particularly in the regular season to give these guys to give Brunton some rest on his legs where he's not just carrying these guys and just eating up possession after possession. I tend to agree with you. I just think, you know, Easter Conference, the cabs, I think are going to be pretty damn good again. I think they're going to be even better than they were last year. which is saying something. And I think, you know, a guy like Mobley, like getting a taste of the postseason

and like having a better understanding of what's required of him specifically, you know, you wonder if he's going to take another leap. So I think them in Cleveland is just obvious. It's like, we're not making some like astute observations. Those are the, that's the class of the east to me. And that's who they should be looking at as their main competitors.

And, you know, hopefully they get out of the east. But yeah, man, that's the team. Who's the team below? the Knicks in Cleveland that scares you the most. I mean, to me it's Orlando by far. If Jalen Suggs is healthy and I realize that's a big if,

I think they're going to like be incredible because he does it. Like Jalen Suggs to me does for Orlando what Neesmith and Nemhard combined do for Indiana where it's like the toughness quotient is just turned to a thousand because of Niece Smith and Nimhard and now like Indiana becomes

like not just this pace and finesse team they become this like physicality team on top of that I think with Suggs it's like it's the same but it's different it's like it's now turning Orlando into like a sledgehammer

a freaking axe like they're gonna hit you like really hard if Suggs is able to stay on the court And that's, to me, that's going to give them an elite quality, right? Like, that physicality, that toughness, that athleticism that they could bring when all of their guys are actually on the floor is something that teams just can't replicate. Like, that's just different. And so having some elite quality, whether it's like shooting or in a magic case, toughness and athleticism and Indies cases, pace. In Denver's case, it's like insane execution level.

Like you need some kind of elite quality to be a scary team. And I think the magic to me on paper anyway are the team that I think possesses that. Yeah, I think that's a good one. I think I agree. And they can throw a lot of different types of defenders at Johnson. Because you can have you can have Suggs, guard him. And Suggs is, oh, my goodness. He is so crazy.

Something else. But then you can also for like 15 minutes, not more. than 15 minutes, but for like 15 minutes, you could be like, all right, Jonathan Isaac can go guard Brunson. Yeah. Like Jonathan Isaac can go do it. Jonathan Isaac has guarded Brunson. Jonathan Isaac is such a good Jalen Bronson defender.

That dude, if that dude could play more than 15 minutes, he'd be in the conversation. He'd be making a lot more money too. I'd be in the conversation for the defense player of the year. I think Detroit, I think people are sleeping on Detroit because of the disjointed nature of the offseason. where they're about to pay Beasley and have to pivot to Duncan Robinson and all of this stuff. I just think the internal improvement of the young guys

should get them to a new gear. And so I think Detroit's going to be really good as well. I just think Orlando just, I don't know, man. I also think people are sleeping on the Bain thing where people like, oh, they overpaid them. I'm like, no, they didn't. This guy is a high-quality player at a position of need.

that, like, it's so glaring and obvious. He's so obviously fits that need. And, you know, he's learned to be not a scrub on defense. And so I just think the athletic profile of this team is just something else. And now that they have some quality shooting and Suggs finally got some goddamn shots to fall last year, I'm a big, big, big, big, magic believer if they can stay home. That makes house. I'm very intrigued with Atlanta.

I'm intrigued, but I'm not doing, I'm not falling for the Atlanta thing again. They burn me too many times, bro. Like, this might be, this might be the time, man. Maybe, maybe. Look at all of the types of guys they have around Trayon. It's now all of these long,

athletic, defensive-minded. Like, Dyson Daniels is the best defensive guard in the NBA. He's insane. Maybe. He's insane. He's crazy. Jalen Johnson. He has to play. He has to play. He also might be the most underrated player in the NBA right now. Because what they did last year...

I don't know this podcast. What they did like... Me and Rob Mahoney, like, you would swear this guy was goddamn Kevin Garnett, the way Mahoney in... But like, what they did last year, allowing him to put the ball on his hand so much more turning him, it's more of a facilitator and a passer.

He could do everything. He could do everything. And they've just, they've just surrounded him with these long athletic guys. I actually thought Risa Shea was very encouraging last year, especially from a defensive standpoint. He's good. He's never going to make nobody's All-Star team,

but he's like he's going to be in the upper echelon role player. Yeah, I think, I agree with that. I agree. Sucks for number one pick, but, you know. Yeah, but, you know, that was, that was the draft. It's not like I was shit. It's not like that was a bad pick. It was just not a good draft.

And you know what? The world is sleeping on Chris Stops, Porzingis. The world is sleeping on Chris Stapstaffs. Frank can't stop it, man. Stop it. I don't, honestly, I don't get it. He had this, this, you know, illness that nobody knew what it was and what was going on. Is he over?

Is it done? That's the thing. We don't even know that he's gotten rid of it. We don't. We don't. But it's an illness, you know? Like it's, I feel like an illness probably goes away.

You know, it's an illness. It would be like, it would be like if you got bronchitis and your voice were out and you were like, screw it. I'm going to, I'm going to power through some podcasts. And everyone was like, God has really lost it.

He used to be a good podcaster. What was? Was used to have this great voice. He had a lot. had this iconic podcasting voice, and he lost it. And it's like, no, he just had bronchitis. Like, he'll, Wals will be fine in a few weeks. I hope so.

I hope you're right. When Chris Stops, people talk like, he was less than a zero in the playoffs last year. He was like a negative three. He was a horrible player. He was nothing. But regular season, Chris Stops for Rzingis was Chris Staps. Like he was taking six threes a game. He was shooting over 40%.

He, nobody in the NBA has that height. Yep. Nobody in the NBA has that height and that quick of a release from three. He's also able to shoot it from like 32 and he has no conscious whatsoever. There's no conscience at all. He will throw it up anytime from anywhere. He is a special kind of floor spacer. He's a good defender.

He's a good rim protector. Like, he was having a really good year. If you look at the, at the second spectrum analytics during the regular season last year, He was actually the most efficient post-up player in the NBA last year. So now Chris Staps is a good post player, too, is what you're telling me. And that's what I'm telling you. He may not even start. Like, if they have Okangu starting at center and Chris Stops is coming off the bench,

and you've got that level of a guy, look, he's not going to play a whole year. He never does anymore. He's going to get hurt. And he's going to have to miss time. But, like, when he plays other than the playoff round, he's good. and if he never recovers from this illness, then that would be really, really sad. And I would, that would suck for him.

And that would be really sad. But I don't know why the default assumption is that like, oh, Chris Staps is just going to be sick forever. I don't know why that's the default. He's got a new strain of mononucleosis. So like, that's fine. That's fine. I had mono.

I had mono. I got over mono. I was falling asleep everywhere. I got mono. I got mono when I was 17 years old. I fell asleep everywhere. I was going on a trip with my dad. We were going to a bunch of baseball stadiums around the country.

It was like the best trip ever. I fell asleep in every car we were in. I fell asleep in every airplane. I fell asleep in a game once. I was asleep everywhere. I had mono. And you know what? I'm here today and I'm fine.

All right. Chris Daps is back with a vengeance. Fred Katz, man. Appreciate you coming on. Not going to lie. I'm not one of these NBA people who, like, during the off-season, Oh my God, I can't. I'm just interested for games.

So sorry, back up. I'm really not. Like, we're going to get 82 from 30 teams. Like, it's fine. However, talking to you today, I'm not going to lie, got me pumped about the season. So, thank you. Thank you for your contribution to the show today. That's what I'm here for.

I'm here, my spirit. Please tell the people where they can find your stuff, Ben. You can find me on Christopps Porzingis is going to average 20.com. You can also check out my work at the athletic. You follow me on Twitter, I'm afraid cats. And yeah, that's it. I'm not really, and you can, and you can subscribe to my podcast. Cats and Shoot.

Patreon.com slash Cats and Shoot. Love that. Nick, it's a Knicks podcast. So if you're a next fan, you want to listen, check that out. You can, you can subscribe to it there. Patreon.com slash cats. Love that you back home with the Knicks, man. Because you was part of that OKC mafia over there, that, that Colt

over there that San Presti is cultivating in O KC. I'm glad that you back with the home team, man. I'm loving that. Dude, OKC with so many good beatwriters of KC. 100%. My man, my man Tony Slater is killing it. Yeah. Obviously, Royce Young is just, yeah, just some beasts.

Who's a dude that Westbrook was always beefing with? Tremel. Yeah. Okay. C. Brett Dawson, Eric Horn. Come on. Eric Horn, another beast, facts.

Yeah. Anyway, glad to catch up with you, Fred. We'll see you guys next week on the Ring of NBA podcast feed. I have no idea who's going to be hosting the show, but I'm sure it's going to be great. Later, y'all.