The Ringer NBA Show - Kobe’s Past, Rockets’ Present, and Rookies’ Future (Ep. 181)

Episode Date: December 19, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor review Kobe night at Warriors-Lakers (0:40), evaluate Jayson Tatum’s rapid maturation on display against the Pacers (9:33), and laud this year’s impressive rookie class (17:18). Then they discuss the Bulls’ surprising win streak stemming from Nikola Mirotic’s return (27:02), analyze the ingredients behind Houston Rockets’ continued dominance (33:42), and anticipate the return of key players in the Eastern Conference (43:44). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. It is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Connor, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. via Bill's dad, Kevin O'Connell. Former Patriots, third string quarterback. Chris, I don't know about you, but I'm still basking in the greatness of last night's games. That was unbelievable. What a night. It was an unbelievable night. The biggest event of the evening was for sure coverage-wise the Kobe Bryant night that they had in Los Angeles. How about the stars that were out there?

I mean, Kareem, Bill Russell, Iverson's out there holding up his phone. I mean, there was celebrities. There was Hall of Fame basketball players. It was quite the night in Los Angeles. And first thing first, what do you think about the retiring of two numbers? I've never seen that before. I think both the numbers should be retired. I just wish there was a way where both spots wouldn't have to be taken up,

you know, up where all the jerseys are. That's all. I'm very happy both were retired because both should be retired. It'd be weird if a player ever wore eight or 24 again for the Lakers. So you think maybe that what they should have done is like put one banner up and then have eight slash 24? I don't know,

but then that might look really, you know, tacky, right, if you do that. So the point is it's like it was the right decision. or retire both. I'm happy they did that. Last night, obviously he does the speech, which got a lot of good feedback, I think. And then it gets weird because even if people disliked Kobe Bryant over his time in the NBA, it is one of those things where now when he's having that moment, there's a level of respect that comes from everybody, right?

Like, it's like he was a fun guy to hate. There's no doubt about that. And I do think that in this day and age, it has been lost. a little bit, right? He always felt like he didn't mind being the villain, right? He didn't mind being the bad guy. He knew that he was on one hand extremely popular. On another hand, extremely unpopular. And I do think that there's a bit of a drought of that. I think it's almost like when I'm watching him last night and I'm thinking about it, it's like there's not a ton of guys that are intensely unlikable at this point. And people feel found reasons not to like Kobe Bryant, whether it was the scowl, whether it was, you know, the way he carried himself, whether it was him and Shaq having the falling out. Some people don't like the way he played. And then obviously the indiscretions off the court that took place in Denver, that one hung on his head for a long time. And so there are a myriad of reasons that people could find

not to like Kobe. And I do think there's a bit of a drought of that throughout the NBA right now. generally most of the players that are extremely high profile players are rather likable. And so it's almost like, I don't want to say he was the last one, he was like this Uber competitor and all this. But you look around and like it's like, I don't know, especially the young ones, Janus and Porzengis and all these guys. They're all like super likable. And even with LeBron. And I get people, you know, didn't like him during the Miami thing, but then he went back to Cleveland that he won. So that was a kind of redeeming thing.

And the other thing is like the second you start really hating LeBron, like you see some story about him like building 100 schools or something. You're like, come on. Like, it's clearly not a bad guy, right? Like, I mean, if you hate him as a basketball player, that's fine. But he's clearly not like some kind of jerk or some kind of bad guy. Whereas Kobe would, could many times give off that vibe and not care. Like he didn't care if you thought he was a jerk.

All he cared about was winning. All we got, you know, is really Russell Westbrook. He's the era parent of Kobe Bryant. I think that's true. But besides that, people try to find reasons to hate LeBron, right, with the Miami years. But since then, I feel like it's all love for most of the superstars. I mean, there's subsets of people who don't like Chris Paul or they don't like Anthony

Davis or they might not like Stefan Curry because they anti-hype, right? But at the same time, for the most part, it's all love for these guys. That's really interesting because part that made rooting for Kobe, rooting against Kobe, so exciting was just the fact that he really was. was such a polarizing figure in the game. So last night, really, I thought it was a great tribute to him. I really enjoyed all the speeches with magic and bus. Yeah. So it was Kobe Bryant night last night in Los Angeles. The other thing I'll say is regarding his, like, I guess his career as a whole and everybody celebrating. And you saw all these players, I mean, on social media last night. Like,

it was a big event for sure to see him, you know, having his, his, his number. numbers retired and all the speeches and whatnot. I think like, I don't know. I was trying to think of like how I, how I will remember him. And I guess obviously a super competitor, a guy that like, I almost view him as this polarizing guy, right?

You know every time his name comes up, like it's a fight amongst NBA fans. I mean, that's like it's the weirdest thing. He unlike anybody I can remember, as soon as his name gets brought up, and I suppose that speaks to his greatness, but as soon as his name gets brought up, there's going to be an argument about it. My lasting memory for him, man, is just, it was kind of like the last night's game, right?

KD. got off to a bad start, but you know that he can get catch fire at any time. And with Kobe, it was always like that, where when the Lakers are playing up late, I grew up on the East Coast, Lakers are playing late. You either want to stay up late to watch the Sports Center highlights, or you're going to stay up late if the game's on national TV. because with Kobe, you never felt like the team was out of it, really no matter how he started. So for me, like that was the exciting part of Kobe.

Like the debates, you know, like I loved getting in arguments, you know, whether he was the best player in the game or not. But like in some ways, it's like the debates almost distract from the product in the court where it's like, here's one of the rare players that you're always in the game anytime you have Kobe on your team. You're always in the game anytime you have Kevin Durant, anytime you have LeBron, anytime you have Michael Jordan. Like those are those type of players, those elite level playmakers or scores or however you want to categorize them.

Like Kobe, to me, that's what he was. Just he always gave the Lakers a chance. That was the exciting part about it. And I just want to read one quote that Ben Roerbach surfaced in top Mumba moments yesterday in his article on Yahoo Sports. It captures Kobe perfectly for me. It's from Bonzie Wells after Kobe dropped 40. Nine games in a row, he scored 40 points. Bonzie Well said this after the game.

everyone had their hands in Kobe's face. My mama had a hand in his face, and he still hit it. Kobe is playing at an unbelievable level and hitting shots. I feel like I'm an all right defender, and Ruben Patterson's an all right defender, and he is still making us feel like we were no defenders. That's what it was like watching Kobe. It didn't matter what the defense did. He could still score on you.

There's no doubt about that. So anyways, it was Kobe Knight, and then there was a game that was being played. Yes, there were games. Yeah, well, the Lakers, just that particular one, Lakers hung in there until the very end. obviously had a chance and then we're done in by Kevin Durant, who the Warriors have done rather well without Curry and Draymond since we last spoke. Yeah, they've been terrific. I know, you know, last night's game, no Stefan Curry, no Draymond Green.

So, you know, that helped out the Lakers. But at the same time, look, man, like, you know, Warriors are playing extremely well, right? Kevin Durant has elevated his play last night, got off to a slow start scoring the ball and he just ended it ferociously, right? It was kind of a good Kobe tribute in that way. But I'm impressed by these young Lakers. Lonzo played really well last night. Brandon Ingram had moments.

Larry Nance had that ridiculous dunk. Julius Randall rebounded the hell out of the ball like he always does and played fairly well. Kyle Kuzman had a big scoring night. Josh Hart had some moments off the bench. I like a lot of these young Lakers. I think their future is extremely bright. And last night was a good example. Just the way these guys play when they kind of all click.

They did a good job hanging in that game. Okay, let me ask you this. If you're running the Lakers, if you're Rob Blinka, and you look at that young talent that, you've got. You're well aware that at some point you need to decide, much like once upon a time, Golden State did. And they said, all right, we are building around Clay and Steph and Dremont. Who do you view or who would you put in the category of your core? I'm dedicating to them for the long term. Brandon Ingram and Lonzo Ball. Those are the two. You could throw Kuzma in there as well,

but at the same time, like I still wouldn't put him in the same class in terms of upside as Ingram and Ball, but I mean, like, if I'm choosing three, then it'd be Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma. I wouldn't, I don't, I don't know about anybody else. I mean, there's like really very, very few players in the league that I think you really want to hold on extremely tight to if the right deal's not available, you know, depending on your situation. So like with the Lakers are a young rebuilding team, you need to stay flexible. You need to stay reactive.

And, I mean, really none of them. I mean, but Ingram and Ball would be the guys that, like, I look at and I'm super excited about having them part of my court. No matter what happens moving forward. I know you were watching the Boston game last night, which was super interesting because Boston was up virtually the entire game and then Oladipo made a big run. He ties the game, pulls Indiana. They get a lead and then ultimately they fall to Boston that Terry Rozier, steal and

donk at the end of the game. One side note, the ringer curse was broken because Oladipo was still playing extremely well, despite your Oladipo piece last week. I saw you tweeting about Tatum. I had the opportunity to see him in person this past weekend for the first time since Summer League. And my God, I mean, he is. There's a couple things here. Number one, you know, when you're putting up numbers on a losing team, then, like, in the end, somebody has to score.

So I'm not all that impressed. But when you can put up real numbers in a winning context, he is leading the league in three-point percentage. and he has all kinds of moves to go to the basket. Like, if you didn't know he was a rookie, you wouldn't know he's a rookie, if that makes sense. If you just watch the games, right? You would think he's like 26.

He just looks young, right? I mean, Kevin, he is unbelievable. And the other thing is, I got a little bit of a different impression getting to see him in person because he is bigger than maybe I imagined or thought on TV. big kid broad shoulders and he's tall and I mean I just I have no idea what the frigging you know ceiling is for him because I don't know I mean I watched him the first night

and obviously I saw him in summer league I saw him the first night and my first two impressions were just holy mackerel did they nail this but then after seeing him this past weekend and obviously some of those highlights from that game last night are just absurd they absolutely nailed it with him Kevin they really did I mean, put it this way. He's a 19-year-old rookie starting on the team with the best record in the Eastern Conference. And he's doing his job extremely well, whether it's hitting spot-up threes, whether it's attacking closeouts, whether it's making the right pass, whether it's team rebounding, whether it's defending his man. And he doesn't usually defend the best player in the opposing team. That's for Jaylon Brown if it's a wing. But Tatum has done his job defensively as well. He's a 19-year-old rookie with very few. you notable holes in his game. And that is an extremely rare thing to say about any player. And that's why, to your point, Chris, that you look at him and you don't think he's 19 years old, you wouldn't know that he's a rookie. You would think that he's a savvy veteran who just looks like a teenager

because he still looks extremely young. But he doesn't play like it. And look, man, the impressive thing, you know, with any rookie, always what I look for is, at first you want to see, strengths translate, right? You want to make sure that that begins to translate to the pro level. And if that doesn't, well, then you start getting a little bit worried. But with Tatum, you also look for some of their weaknesses or some of their areas of improvement to start getting better. And with Tatum, that's exactly what happened. I mean, at Duke, he was not a good defender. He was just not good defensively. And I think part of that can be kind of put on the ankle injury he had early in the season. I've heard that he just wasn't able to get into the right

shape that he would have, that he otherwise would have had it not been for that injury. So yet now he's, you know, he's perfect shape. He's healthy and he's defending at a good level. You look at the extended range. He's shooting threes. That's something he's done every year of his life since high school. He's constantly been extending his range. So now he hit spot up threes.

The next step, hitting threes off the dribble. That'll come in time. I think, I feel safe saying that. And other passing the ball, he's gotten better at that as well. That was something he didn't do a lot of it too. He was a solid passer, not a great passer. But he's really taken a step there. So it's like, this 19-year-old player already looks like a guy you feel like you can rely on in a playoff situation.

I'm blown away by him. And he was somebody I loved in the draft, and I feel like I almost underrated him despite having him ranked second. I mean, he's unreal, dude. It looks like they could really regret that trade. Yeah, listen, there is no return on Fultz yet. We just don't know. Yeah. I am only saying I find it hard to believe that I will watch him and think he's going to be better than that other kid because that kid, it's hard to watch anybody.

And I mean, he's 19. And even like, say like, you know, one of his predecessors and happens to be a Duke kid in Ingram. Like you see it now with Ingram. You see it now. You look at him and you're like, oh, man, like this kid could be really, really special. But most people didn't see it the first year. right and I'm saying you already see it with this guy like there is no chance he is not going to be amazing none no chance he's just oh yeah and I you know what ran through my mind I do wonder because

this is clearly outstanding for his development I wonder what the situation would be if if the injury to Hayward never happens on opening night you know Hayward is a 30 plus minute per game guy and is on the wing. And so you do wonder what would have happened with, with Tatum and his development and our opinion of him, because he clearly would not be getting the opportunities getting unless Gordon went down on opening night, right? Isaac Lee, our amazing producer of the Ringer NBA show,

on the night that Hayward got hurt, right? Me and Isaac are sitting next to each other on the couch in one of the Ringers studios, and we're talking about the Celtics with Lueger's. using Hayward and the opportunities that were going to come for Jason Tatum and Jaylon Brown. And Isaac used the phrase, it's the paradoxal serendipity of the moment. And first of all, those are big words. Had to Google them.

You might be pausing the show to Google those words together right now. But Isaac's point was, with the loss of Hayward, new opportunities would come for other players to do things they otherwise may not have done. And with Tatum, you like you said, Chris, playing 30 plus minutes per game. Jalen Brown playing 31 plus minutes per game. These young guys getting an opportunity to get in moments a feature opportunity, extremely rare, not just on bad teams, but especially on good teams. It's still a horrible thing that Hayward got hurt,

but Tadam might be only playing, or Jalen Brown might only be playing 20 minutes per game in a really restricted role had Hayward stayed healthy. And I think the Celtics would make that trade. They'd be happy with that happen. in an alternate universe. But at the same time, this could pay off in a big way if Hayward's able to return,

whether it's late this season or whether it's the next season, all the experience and opportunity these guys are getting. Because you know what? That's how you get better is with experience and opportunity. You make a really good point,

and I will say, of all the points that you made, I'm very happy to know that you had to go look up the phrase that Isaac used because I would also have had to look up that phrase, and it is unsurprising to me

that a phrase like that was used at the ringer. That's how everybody talks at the ringer. And I got to look it all up. They just sit around. They just sit around being smart. I just Google it again. You know, you can look at those words individually and kind of know what they mean. You know what paradoxes. You know what serendipity is. But putting them together, that's the part where it's like, damn, Isaac is smart. You flatter me, Kevin. No worries. There's not a lot of uses of the word together. The other thing and the jump off on Tatum is clearly he looks amazing. How about this. I posted something last night about how somehow, some way, this rookie class is even

better than expectation, right? We thought they were going to be amazing. And somehow they are exceeding that through the first 30 games of the season. And a guy tweets me and he says, and I want to do a, I want to think about it for a second without responding so that we could bring it up on the show today. He said, is there going to be a single lottery butt? because as I have said, because he said, because we've got to wait on Fultz, right? So one of the things is when you go into the draft, you go, all right, every draft has the bust. You just got to try to figure out which one it is. And many times it can be obvious, many times it can be really surprising.

But you go down this thing. Markell Fultz, Lanzo Ball, Jason Tatum, Josh Jackson, Deeran Fox, Jonathan Isaac, Lori Marketing, Frankie Nicotine, Dennis Smith Jr., Zach Collins, Malik Monk, Luke Kinnard, Donovan Mitchell. And you even go, the next one is Bam Otabio. But if we just go, so Bam Outabio would have been the last lottery pick. Okay. Of all of those, I do find it hard to come up with like a bust. Like there's always like a flame out, a guy that's like not even in the league in four years. It's hard for me to project any of those guys to not have NBA careers. Yeah, I think maybe, you know, Zach Collins is one.

But that's also kind of with me where it's like I just wasn't necessarily as high on him as I would like would have liked to see him go at 10. I still think it's a little surprising. He went top 10. He can still be a contributor, you know? It depends on the definition of bust. Yeah, no, because you still like, I don't know, you could flip on a Wizards game and you still. Jason Smith's had like a decade long career. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I mean, the thing is, though, is like some people will say that's a bust.

I don't think that's a bust, right? I think if Zach Collins has a career like that, I think that's perfectly fine. But I do think some people would still consider that a bust. So like it almost depends on the definition. Like if Malik Monk is like Lou Williams, some people will say that's a bust. Even though, again, like, I don't think that's a bust. That's asinine. Listen, the truth is, if once you get past,

you know, the first whatever, five picks in like an amazing draft. If you get a long-term rotation player, eight-man, nine-man rotation player, you did well. Yeah, you might have missed on somebody better. But if the guy is a contributor to a winning basketball team and is in your rotation, you did well. The draft's not easy. And you can go back and you can point out like, hey, well, they didn't get, you know, whoever, I don't know.

Like, maybe some star, okay, so you missed on some star player, but at least you got a guy that, like, has played with you, played for you for a long time and has been in the rotation. And so a bust is somebody that, like, never contributes and then doesn't even have a career. Like the Joe Alexander's of the world, it's like, all right, he's out of the league by the time second contract comes around. With Markle Fultz, you know, once he comes back, I hope people give him time because with any young point guard. any young point guard that comes into the league, whether they're the number one pick or the number 30 pick. Typically, more often than not, those young players need a lot of time to get used to the pace of the game,

to get used to the speed and the physicality of the game. And Fultz has played only four games. So when he comes back, there's going to be rust on top of the fact that he's just a rookie. So it might not look good for him whenever he gets back. It might look pretty bad. But I hope people have kind of the foresight to understand. understand that like, hey, this guy is going to take time anyway. So I think, I think, you know,

kind of tie it back to where this began talking about Tatum for at least the next two to three years, you know, especially depending on where that pick, the Celtics got ends up. If they get it this year with the Lakers pick, top five pick, that pick, that deal could look really, really bad for Philly for the next two to three years. But at the same time, that's still not enough time to really judge it fairly because Fultz is somebody who it might not be until he's 23, 24 years old, where he's really blossoming into a star. You hope it doesn't take that long, but it could because it does for a lot of point guards historically. The important thing is that he continues making progress. And hopefully he does once he returns to the court. I'm sure Philly fans are going to get mad

at me for saying this because they get mad at everything. But I don't think it's a great situation for him and his development because I want the ball in Ben Simmons' hands. And If it's not in his hands, I want it in MB's hands. And I think Fultz is a guy that needs the ball in his hands. I don't think he's a guy that you want to be constantly playing off the ball. I think you get the best out of him with the ball in his hands. And that's not what I want or need if I'm Philly. Simmons is just a, he has got this God-given talent to see the floor and pass like very few players I've seen in a long time.

You know, that's why I was beating the trade-down drum, you know, since lottery night. I said the Celtics and the Lakers and the Sixers should be looking the trade down. With the Lakers, I was a little less strong about that because I thought, you know, just take Lonto, it's destiny. But with the Celtics and the Sixers, I was saying they should try to look the trade down and see if there's a trade that makes sense to do. And part of the reason why is because someone like Malik Monk on papers are superior fit next to Ben Simmons. And so you could get other assets, whether it's a player on top of that or other future draft picks. Because if you look at what the Celtics got trading from one to three. three, right?

Getting that extra protected Lakers king's pick. The Sixers could have, in a different world, done the same thing, trading from three to eight or three to nine. And just imagine the package they would have gotten. And maybe, maybe, you know what? Maybe it would end up looking bad. Maybe it would have looked like a silly decision for them to do that. But the same time, I do think with this 2017 draft class, and this isn't true for many

classes all, but in 2017, I thought there were 10 guys that had a chance. chance at becoming the best player in the draft. 10 guys. From one, Markle Fultz to 10, I had Donovan Mitchell. Though to top 10 guys, I thought all had a chance

to be the best in the draft. And I thought if you trade down, you can end up getting one of those 10 guys and still get more on top of that. And Philly then went the other way. And it could still work out for them because Markle Fultz is an extremely, extremely talented young point guard who can do it all.

So in that sense, I agree, Chris, that he's not the perfect fit. but at the same time, like, you put superstar players together, they figure it out, man, right? I think it's also on Ben Simmons to improve his shooting so he can play effectively off ball. It's on Simmons, I think, just as much as it's on, Fultz really get integrated within the offense. I think those guys can work. They both can be great players. They have not exactly been a team that has been scared of duplication.

I mean, they've got a bead. They had Noel. They had Okafore. Right? They just keep drafting the same position. Oh, by the way, like I said, you know, trade down for Monk, he hasn't been that great this year. But at the same time, he's still somebody who's been a rookie. So, like, had they done that, people might be saying, why would they have traded down?

So, you know, in some ways, you might lose either way with whatever you do. And the other thing is, what if Tatum goes one? I mean, that's the truth. Oh, yeah. That's the thing. Listen, if you wanted Monk, you could have had Tatum. And I think he would have went one. I think Boston would have taken Tatum at one if they weren't able to trade down.

Right. All right. We've got to take a quick break when we come back. we're going to talk about some other events of last evening and what has come of those, including a player that has returned to the lineup and has changed a franchise completely, at least for the last week and a half. And Houston's continued dominance. MVP.

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They were 3 and 20. Nicola Mertich comes back into the lineup. They have now won six in a row. They got the magic tomorrow night, so very easily could be seven in a row. He's averaged 20.3 points, 7.3 rebounds in 26 minutes a game, 52% from the field, 50% from 3. And how about this one? I was looking at this up this morning. His player efficiency rating is PER.

Number one in the league right now is Janus. Number two, LeBron. Number three, Hardin. Number four, Anthony Davis. number five, Steph Curry, number six, Clint Capella, and then he does not have enough minutes yet to qualify. But he would be seventh. Nicola Mertich would be seventh right now in player efficiency rating of all NBA players so far this year. This has been quite the development to see a team that was three and 20 all of a sudden turn around and win six games in a row.

I guess the easiest question is, is Nicola Mertich the greatest player in the world? You know, I think he is, and I think Nicola Merrittich has a chance to really become the greatest Chicago Bull of all time. I do think there's a chance that, you know, 10 years from now, we're looking back like, man, who's that MJ guy? Nicola Meritich is really the one who took this franchise to New Heights. And we're seeing that right now with the six-game winning streak. Meritich has really, he's playing like the player everybody expected when he first. came to the NBA, just draining threes, doing other little things on the floor as well. It's been a joy to watch.

It's really cool to see him excelling. And last night, you know, I was thinking of myself and I was like challenging myself. I don't know if I believe this, but what if the Bulls are this year's Miami Heat, where they get off to just a horrific start? And then they just, for whatever reason, things start to click. Players come back. Players start playing while they elevate their play. bench players like Nawaba give you know strong contributions young players like Chris Dunn

start to elevate their game maybe Laurie Marketer and start shooting the ball like he did earlier in the season um I think you know what if this team is the Miami heat of the 2017 18 season what do you think Chris are they or there's this just like a fluke six game winning streak the heat thing was so rare obviously with the 10 and 31 and then 31 and 10 and the other thing is the heat they were not nearly as bad as they performed the first half of the season. And most of that was because they lost more games to injury than anybody else. It wasn't a good representation of what they were. They weren't nearly that bad of a team and then just flip the switch.

On the other hand, they also were not as good as they performed the rest of the way. Exactly. And I do think you get the element of, you know, so many times these games, you will see teams come in. and I don't want to say not give maximum effort, but frankly, not give maximum effort because the team they're playing sucks. I've seen it over and over again, right?

Especially with the Grizzlies this year. I've gone to the games, right? And then there'll be teams turn it on. When they have to turn it on, they turn it on, and then they put you away. And so they may dick around throughout the game.

And then when it's time to, you know, the Celtics, when I just mentioned that Celtic game, they're up like 22, 21, they were up a ton. And then they just screwed around.

then by the time it was time to go win that game, they cranked it up and they went and they got the win. And I think when you do that, it happened with the heat a lot last year. I'm not trying to take away from what they were, but I will say once they got good and their record was still terrible, they still had teams dicking around with them, except they couldn't do that this time around. And so time after time, they'd start catching teams. And then it just starts adding up and then they started getting a lot of confidence.

And so I think that was just so, so rare. I don't know if we'll ever see somebody, something like that again, where a team loses three-fourths of their games and then wins three-fourths of their games. I don't think, no. So do I think the Bulls could be like that? No, because I don't think anybody could be like that.

I think that is like a once-in-a-lifetime deal. You know, I'm with you, but with that said, I do think, you know, perhaps they're a little bit better than three-and-twenty, like they were to start the season, right? There's no doubt about that. No doubt. And let's take a step. back real quick. It gives some credit to guys that I've criticized, that a lot of Bulls fans criticize.

Fred Hoyberg's coaching the hell out of this team, and Gar-Pax really has added some pretty good talent. You look at David Nawaba off the bench. That wasn't an obvious signing, right? Bobby Portis, their draft pick from a couple years ago, starting to really show signs of becoming a long-time NBA pro. Acquiring Chris Dunn as part of the Jimmy Butler trade, Dunn looks terrific. And what Hoyberg has done helping him improve his three-point shooting, unbelievable. Dunn's shot looks better than it has really his entire life, I want to say. Not shooting the three quite as well this season, but he looks great. He's also leading the NBA and steel percentage, Don. I was reading that this morning. He looks terrific, man. And, you know, he's only in his second year. I know people are going to say he's 23, but he's had like a unique road with a lot of injuries in college that kind of set back his development. He's still a young point guard in terms of his development. It's, The team deserves a lot of credit, right? I mean, got to give credit where it's due to Garpax in the front office and to Fred Hoyberg for really coaching these dudes.

Well, you know, sometimes guys can get their ass beat and it really builds character. How about giving a little credit to Bobby Portis for turning Nicola Mertich into a superstar? Oh, God. I mean, turn him into a guy who could, who at least has the upside of becoming better than Michael Jordan. Here's the thing. Mertich isn't even playing like 40 minutes a night. Yeah, right? He's playing like, what was he played? 26 minutes? He's playing 26 minutes a night. Are you trying to say that he can be better than Michael Jordan?

That's not. I'm saying that they should already just tear down that statue in front of the United Center and replace it with a statue, a dual statue of Bobby Port is punching Nicolomewitch in the face. That's what I want. There must be some photo or some video of the moment, right? There has to be something like where you can actually capture the real moment. But we need that image of that moment where things started a click for Nicola Meritich, and he became better than Michael Jordan. I hope it comes. Let's get to what's happened with the Houston Rockets. Oh, boy. 14 straight wins.

Chris Paul still undefeated this season. They are winning by an average of 16 points a game through this 14 game winning streak. Here's just some of the numbers that have gone along with this particular team, Kevin. Offensive real plus minus. the leader in the league is James Harden. His is like 8.69 in how his team performs offensively when he's on the court versus not. The next is Curry at like six and a half points.

So that's absurd. Then you go, the number one guy in the NBA in terms of offensive rating is Chris Paul. The number one defensive guy in the NBA for defensive rating, Clint Capella. And then Capella, you go through like league leaders as I did. Capella is leading the league in effective field goal percentage, true shooting percentage, field goal percentage, and two point percentage. He's leading.

Not only is he leading in defensive rating in the NBA. He has a better defensive rating than any player in the NBA. He is also leading in those four offensive categories amongst all NBA players. Listen, it stands to reason that they are having this amazing season. they are this offensive juggernaut, but also their individual players are just littering almost every damn category. It's crazy what they have been able to do.

Obviously, I was dead wrong about, is it, you know, give it time, let's see if it's going to work. The ultimate test will obviously be the playoffs, but in terms of regular season and their success, I know you are super high on them, and you had that thing pegged because they are, a friggin juggernaut. You know, I think with Houston, right?

Last night, they trailed by eight with like 10 minutes to go. And then they went on a 37 to 8 run and won the game by 21 points. And Houston, it seems like every game, you know, during the streak and maybe even like in some of their losses, it seems like they have a moment where they just rip the other team, where they just go on an absolute tear offensively. and then they're in their half court defense with Capella, anchoring with Areza and Tucker on the wing, you know, and Paul up top, really setting the tone for that team,

where they just cannot be stopped, where they're getting stops offensively, and then they can't be stopped offensively. The team just has such upside within games, within possessions, that there again, it's like we said with Kobe, like we said with Kevin Durant,

they collectively are always in games. They are always in a game, no matter how far they're down. that makes them a threat, right? That gives them a chance to be the team like the Warriors in the playoffs. Doesn't mean they will, but they have a shot at it. And they are just an absolute joy to watch, and they're only going to get better, man.

Chris Paul and James Hard and Sullivan played a lot of games together. Those guys are still going to learn how to play at a higher level together. When I was watching them last week against Charlotte, I started tweeting some things out because I'm watching the game. They had one point through about three minutes and 40 seconds, almost four minutes into the game, they had one point in the first quarter. And I'm watching it. I'm like, wow, this is crazy, right?

Like, when it was the last time they went four minutes scoring a point, right? They ended the quarter with 38, 38. And I went and did the quick math. And that means for the last whatever, eight minutes of the quarter, they scored 4.35 points per minute the rest of the way, which is just outrageous. So I tweet this out and I get in this discussion with Duncan Smith who covers the Detroit Pistons. And he tweets me and he says something to the effect of like, we very rarely have seen anything like this offensively. We have never seen anything like this. I went and pulled it up.

We really haven't. As of this morning, they have had through at least the first 29 games the best offensive team in NBA history. Their offensive rating is 116.1 so far this year. Second is the 86-87 Lakers. Third is the 16-17 Warriors. Fourth, 91-92 Bulls, 5th, 87-88 Celtics. They're seriously the best offense ever through 29 games, which is just absurd. 52% of their shot attempts are threes.

So over half of their shot attempts are threes. They are not only a dominant offense, but they are such a unique offense. They are so, it's so different watching Houston compared to every other team. And it'll be interesting to see, I mean, obviously teams are shooting threes at a league high rate historically this season with around 34% of shots being three pointers. And I wonder at what point do we see a team kind of replicate exactly what Houston's doing in terms of their shot distribution? Or will Houston always be a outlier? or are they kind of the blueprint for how teams will build moving forward? I'm not sure.

I mean, it's hard to say. Like, there's been teams historically that shot a lot more threes compared to the rest of the league, like some early Sonics teams, the Celtics in the early 2000s, obviously the Suns. There's been other teams that have taken a lot of threes. But Houston is doing it at such an extreme level. I wonder when other teams start just following what they're doing. Or is it because, you know, Houston has the ability to do it, based on their personnel.

But if you want to play that style, you're going to build that way. I'm interested to see. Okay. This is one I'll tell you when they will. When they're in the finals or they win a title, that's when people will. Otherwise,

there will be enough people out there that say, when you get to the highest level, like last year, where they had this serious refusal to take anything in the mid-range against San Antonio and they ran up against a team that was willing to just totally run them off the line all the time,

and that's what they dedicated themselves to, that unless they can do it and pull it off at the highest level by playing that way, people will not go all in to replicate. I hope Houston can sustain it into the playoffs. I know I said this about Tibbs a couple weeks ago, but like, Dan Tony played basically a seven-man rotation last night.

Everybody played 34 plus minutes except for Ryan Anderson, who played 19, and Tarrick Black, who played three. So I hope that they can sustain it and that these guys don't get tired. And that's my hope. I hope at some point he kind of expands his rotation to 10 during the regular season. But Antonio has never done that. Really, he's always played a short rotation.

And it wouldn't be surprising that continues. But I hope they can sustain it. I hope they can't because this team is such a joy to watch. And speaking to your how extreme it is three point shooting wise, I mentioned that right now they would be at the top of the list of the best all offenses. ever through their 29 games. Also with that, you have that 16-17 Warriors team that took a tick over 2,500 3s in the season, okay?

The second most three-pointers taken amongst those top five offenses is Houston this year. And they have played 29 games, Kevin. They have taken more threes amongst those top five offenses. I mean, think about this, and I get it. They take a lot more than. teams used to. But here, those top five offenses that I read off, 86, 87, Lakers, 16, 17, 17, Warriors, 91, 92 Bowls, 87, 88 Celtics. These were the three-point attempts for the entire season. I already mentioned that the Warriors took 2,500, okay? 86, 87 Lakers, 447. The Chicago Bulls,

454. The Celtics in 8788, 705. The Rockets have already taken 1254 threes in 29 games. Almost three times as many as the 86-87 Lakers. And they play 29 games. What is that? The games change so much.

I don't even know. I don't even know I need to go look at it. Let me pull. I'm not good enough at the. math off the top of my head to pull this off. But let's see. If you've got, let's see what they're averaging. If you got 1254, right, and I told you they played 29 games, 43-3s a game. It's insane. It's like JJ Redick said in his podcast last week, or it was with towns, there's been really two big changes in the NBA, you know, in his time

in the NBA and really, really this entire century, right, since the year 2000. The one of them is the rise of the three-point shooting, you know, right? The amount of, the frequency teams are shooting threes and the other is the influx of this just these freakish big men who can shoot threes playing in the perimeter those those two things are kind of changed the game but it's the three-point shooting more than anything else that i think has changed the way we view this game change what's important in this game what should be valued um how teams should build i love it i i love basketball right now more than i ever have i think it's a prettier game more than it ever has been in my lifetime watching it um i know like i i'm only 27

years old now. So I didn't see like 80s basketball. But I think aesthetically the game is is more beautiful than ever right now that it is just with the amount of passing in the spacing. It's it's unbelievable to watch. And Houston, Houston is that weird unique team that maybe other teams follow or they just take this beauty to the extreme. But it's it's so fun to watch. All right. Last last thing. Let's touch on two guys and how they could change teams fortunes going forward. One is Isaiah Thomas. So, Shams Sharania reported that he's coming back at the beginning of January. And then Isaiah tweeted something out yesterday about Cavs Guard, Isaiah Thomas, is targeting

the first week of April to make his debut league sources to LIT. Like, I just got confused. I didn't even know. What was that about? Do you know? Oh, Isaiah is basically just knocking all the people who said he wanted to be back till April, I think. Isaiah is just kind of being petty in a way. Oh, okay. All right. is right. He wasn't dismissing Shams's extremely accurate report. He was just poking fun at everybody else. Oh, I didn't, I didn't remember that people were saying April. I think he just threw April out there. People were, people were just saying like he might

not be back till March, or he might not be back at all, you know, what if he gets hurt again? The Cavs have been rocking and they're about to put him in that lineup. Oh, boy. I mean, oh, yeah. He led the league in fourth quarter scoring and he was like a 30 point per game guy. And I mean, you think about the upgrade that they'll be making at the position, putting him in there and they've won, you know, damn near every game for the last six weeks. It's going to be really interesting to see what the Cavs look like with him in the mix, because that has been the, you know, we have seen on the other side.

Obviously, the Kyrie thing has worked out unbelievably. Isaiah Thomas famously wrote in the Players Tribune that Boston is going to regret this. And so now, listen, the immediate result is like, hey, I don't think Boston's going to regret this, right? Gary Irving's been unbelievable. They've met the best record in the league, but you never know. I mean, in the end, it will all be determined by playoff time. That's how we will end up making final judgment on all this stuff. But I am very fascinated to see how he fits in within that Cavs context and how devastating offensively they could be.

You know, I think with that trade, they wouldn't have made the trade if Isaiah Thomas didn't have health concerns. I mean, that factored into the decision. That's why the deal was able to be made because Isaiah statistically was probably better than Kyrie Irving during the regular season last season. But that's, but that's kind of the other side of the conversation where it's like, how much do you value regular season data against playoff data? because in the playoffs, Isaiah's efficiency dropped consistently the past three seasons in the playoffs. And that's not necessarily a knock against Isaiah. There's partially due to his circumstances, partially due to the fact he's playing with an injury. But that's something that you weigh, right?

Whereas Kyrie Irving has played at the highest level in the most intense moments against the best defense. Like with Golden State, he's had unbelievable games. he did it's Boston last year and I believe game two or three whatever it was when he just went off in the second or third quarter. Kyrie has done it against the best defenders and the best defenses in the clutchest moments. So how much do you weigh that against high level regular season performance? I'm not really sure. I'm not sure how you weigh that.

But I do know that with Kyrie's proven ability in the playoffs, that makes him better than Isaiah. but that doesn't mean that Isaiah can't elevate his play in the same situation that Kyrie did if he's able to stay healthy. So that'll be fascinating to see. And we also have to remember, much like the other guy I'm going to mention here, it's a contract here for Isaiah, right? So, I mean, there's a lot of money on the line in terms of how he plays when he comes back. The other one that's in the contract year that's going to be coming back and he's now almost done rehabbing in the G-League is Jabari Parker, who I thought had big time star potential.

The kid has had the worst luck ever in terms of injuries in the first four years of his career. But you're bringing him back and you're adding him into that mix with a different Janus than we have ever seen before. And now they've added Eric Bledsoe. And you're talking about throwing him in there with Bledsoe and Middleton and Janus and him. And then whoever else you want to throw out there with them. I think, you know, it's going to be very fascinating to see what the Bucks look like and how he fits in with this Bucks team because I was super high on him. You just never know what the kid's going to look like after another injury. But you also know he's in a contract year too.

So his performance is going to like there's millions of dollars on the line regarding his performance and how he does fit in with the bucks. Yeah, you nailed up there, Chris, where, you know, there will be a time where it, it's going to be an adjustment for him to fit into their team construct. At the same time, you're adding a legitimate 20 points per game score. I think it helps them. I think one of the interesting parts that I was thinking about this morning is, you know,

Jake Fisher from Sports Illustrated had an article about what happened to the debates Brandon Engram versus Ben Simmons. Like that debate kind of just disappeared. And so hasn't the Andrew Wiggins versus Jabari Parker debate. That has vanished. I mean, usually, like, we talked about with Kobe. We opened the show talking about people always argue about whether he's the best or not. People love debating these players with Parker versus Wiggins.

That has kind of just disappeared. I don't know if it's because Parker's gotten hurt torn two ACLs, and Wiggins really hasn't turned anything into anything like the player we expected him to be. Maybe that's why. But at the same time, I'm still a little bit surprised there's still not more of a conversation of like, which guy would you rather have? And for me, it's still Jabari Parker. Like, it's always been.

It could not be easier for me. Prior to the last injury, 100% I'd take Parker. Prior to the last injury. I got to see what it looks like now, right? I got to see what he looks like. Is he a percentage of what he used to be or is he what he used to be? If he is what he used to be, I still want him over Wiggins.

Yeah. It's Parker for me too. I mean, I hate that we agree on this, but it was Parker for me before the draft. It's been Parker for me during his career. It's still Parker for me now. Like, Andrew Wiggins is a quality player, but the same time, like, he still hasn't brought the scoring efficiency or the go-to scoring upside, like, that you want to see. Like, he shows flashes of it, but he just, it's so frustrating because you know it's there.

He just hasn't put it at all together. Whereas Parker, I just think he's a better score. And it's not like Wiggins makes up for it and defensively, like he can. So there's a theoretical difference there, but he doesn't put it out there for the world to see in the defensive end. Whereas Parker, I just think, man, if he stays healthy, dude, if he can stay healthy, his scoring ability is just unbelievable. His size and his fluidity. I mean, it's rare to see a guy that big and that strong move the way Jabari Parker can. And look at the other two.

I mean, imagine if he's never injured, and you're talking about three in a row that Kay would have had at Duke, with Parker, then Ingram, and then Tatum? My God. Yeah, that's a good point. Three wings in a row. I mean, he clearly got the guys. That's for sure. I mean, obviously, it's kind of a scam that he gets to run USA basketball and then just

feed them all into Duke. That's neither here nor there. And then Marvin Bagley this year, too, right? Another one coming. Yeah, it's unbelievable. So much for Coach Kay not recruiting one and done players and just having all four-year guys. gone away real quick. Yeah, he had to bounce on that one. That's for sure. I mean, otherwise, otherwise Calgary, well, it's kind of hard when Calgary was coming out in the news and he was

saying, like, we want all of you. I know. I don't care if you're going to be here for a year. My job's to get you to the NBA, you know? Oh, oh, by the way, like, this is a total aside, but with Coach Cal and Kentucky, I wish he didn't get as many guys as he did sometimes because it's annoying that Carl Anthony Towns goes an entire season, not really shooting threes or even spacing the floor. It's annoying when Devin Booker isn't running pick and roll. These are young players who need these reps and need that player development for the next level, and they're not getting it at these schools that are stacked with players. And that's not even a fault against Coach Cal necessarily, but I wish these guys could get that opportunity.

Well, he has a theory on what he wants his big guys to do. right they are like bam out of bio is perfect for him because he wants you to rebound and play good defense and block shots or whatever i mean i covered his teams at memphis for years and years and guys that weren't like that he just destroyed them that we had a kid named earl baron who ended up having an NBA career and he was on the heat teams there for a while um but i mean earl was just not what he wanted as a as a as a big guy right and it just happened a a few years years ago with another kid that I've known forever, Skull Libisier. Scall's not a, you know, get down in the paint and, you know, kill you for rebounds.

And Scall had a very disappointing freshman year and went a lot lower in the draft than everybody thought he was going to go when he first went into college. But it's just, you know, it made me think of it when you brought up towns and like shooting from outside or facing up more. That's just not what he wants his big guys to be. He has a way that he wants them to play. And he wants tough and rugged. But who cares?

You have a player. It's on the coach to coach the player for who he is. I mean, you can try to change him in some ways. But with Carl Towns, he should have been shooting threes. He's had that ability of his entire life. The fact you take that away from him is just weird to me. That's just not him. It's not him.

But I think it's a shame that it's not. He wants toughness and he wants dogs. That's it. You can get both. You can get both. You don't have to necessarily take the three-pointer away from a player or take pick-and-roll away from Devin Booker. I'm not even like, it's not my fault with Coach Cali. He has a system, right?

He's a good coach, whatever. He's a great recruiter. It's the whole college basketball system where it's like so many guys aren't getting the type of reps that they need to be getting at that age. That's kind of my problem with it where it's like, how can Devin Booker go an entire season running only like 10 pick and rolls? That's outrageous to me. The last thing is we bragged so much on this particular rookie class. And I know you're always keeping up with what's going on in college basketball in terms of the upcoming draft and which of these guys is going to maybe change the fortunes for the next NBA franchise. I mentioned Colin Sexton to you, the kid of Bama that I loved a couple of weeks ago.

Here's another one that I have not heard you talk about yet. I don't guess anybody has, right, at least on a podcast. Have you seen this kid at Oklahoma? My God. Trey Young. Trey Young. Good grief. He is like,

he looks like Steph. It's like friggin Curry. It really is like Curry. I'm like geez, Louise, who is this? Like they got another Steph Curry? Yeah, I recommend to anybody listening to us,

you know, this deep into the podcast. And thank you if you are. But after the podcast is over, just go to go to YouTube, type in T-R-A-E-Y-Y-Y-Y. And watch this dude's highlights. He's like the college version

with Stephen Curry. It's really, really fun to watch and play basketball. Oklahoma's been because of Trey Young, Oklahoma has been must-watch TV. Kevin, have an unbelievable Christmas and New Year. This is our last episode till 2018. So have a great Christmas. Have a good New Year. Thank to all of you that listen to us on a regular basis. If we want to wish you, happy holidays and happy new year. Also, there will be some content and some NBA podcast, including Bill Simmons doing one next week post Christmas, but we are off till the end of the year. So have a good one, Kev. You too, Chris. And thank you so much for everybody listening. Love you all. Thank you. Thank you to everybody that listened to us throughout 2017. We'll be back in 2018. If you dig what you're

hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you in 2018.