The Ringer NBA Show - Kyrie Irving Traded to the Mavericks and What It Could Mean for Kevin Durant

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Logan and Justin fire up the mics to immediately react to the Brooklyn Nets’ blockbuster trade of Kyrie Irving to the Dallas Mavericks (0:56). Then, they discuss what this means for LeBron James and the Los Angeles Lakers, who were seemingly favorites to land Irving (12:55). Later, they discuss Kyrie’s potential long-term future with the Mavs (19:13), what happens with Kevin Durant in Brooklyn (28:50), and much more. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Justin Verrier Producer: Brian H. Waters Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the pod. Specifically, the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, where we're breaking down every new episode of HBO's The Last of Us. On Sunday nights, grab your battery and join Van Lathen and Charles Holmes for an instant reaction to the latest episode. Then head back to the QZ on Tuesdays for a deep dive with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. From character arcs to video game adaptation choices, story themes to needle drops, we'll parse every inch of this cordyceps-coded universe.

Watch out for mouth tendrils and follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. What's popping? Ringer MBA show special edition. This is Logan Murdoch. I am here with Justin Verrier and we are here hours after Kyrie Irving has gotten traded

to the Dallas Mavericks. I'm really nervous right now because my grammar on that last sentence was messed up and my editor is on the call with me to discuss this trade. Varyer, what are your thoughts, immediate thoughts going right now that Kyrie Irving as a Dallas Bavarick.

What is your immediate thought when I tell you that? Oh, man. It sounds weird. You know, I think you would know me at this point. You know that I'm a pretty measured guy. You know, I don't like to put out a lot of just hot takes for the sake of it.

I think I'm worried that this might seal the fate of one Luca Donchich in Dallas. Like, I think if we're looking at this big picture, I think that this is such a bad move that a couple of years from now, Luke is probably gone as a result. Before we get to the ramo case, let's just let's just, let's just put the trade in a nutshell, right? The Brooklyn Nets have traded Kyrie Irving to the Mavericks for Spencer Dinwiddie,

Dorian Finney Smith, a favorite of mine, a first round pick and multiple second round picks. More specifically, the Mavericks are sending a 2029 unprotected first round pick, a 2027 second round pick, a 2029 second round pick to the Nets. and the Marquis Morph is also going into the deal. It's interesting you said what you said about Luca, right? About just how bad the deal is at face value. And almost everything you had to give up for it, right? And Luca right now is what we, in terms of talent and hype and all these things, right?

The only comparison you can give to him right now is LeBron, right? And remember those first few years of LeBron where the Cavs, were just doing shit just doing trades just to what they thought would make LeBron happy. Like Antoine Jameson was randomly in Cleveland. And you had all these little shack that goes to Cleveland, all these random moves that is like going to keep. They thought keep LeBron there. And it wound up in hindsight kind of pushing him more away. Is that what you're thinking?

Is that where you're thinking this might go for Luca in Dallas right now? Yeah, I mean, the Mavericks were clearly up against it. They were feeling the pressure. Luca, I don't think he said so publicly, but mostly through reports, which you can kind of insinuate that Luca was behind them, was basically saying they need an upgrade. If you watch the Mavericks this season, it was very clear that they needed to make a move,

not only for this season, but in the future. And so you knew they had to do something in order to take us step forward. Unfortunately, they made a move in which I think it not only muddles, their future and we can get into that. But I also think it makes them worse this season. Like the Mavericks issue hasn't been offense. Luca Donchich can make your team a top 10 offense just by sheer dint of being on the court.

And like, yeah, could they upgrade here and there? Could they have a better secondary creator than Spencer did with? He was basically a league average. Jalen Brunson approximation. Sure. And Kyrie is going to give them that. But in this deal, they give up Dorian Finney Smith, one of, if not the only plus defender they have on this team.

And so you're looking at what they have left just for this run, which it seems like they're really going all in for the immediate. You have Luca, you have Kyrie and you have Christian Wood, I guess. So you have like a lot of offensive firepower, but you have no defense. And worse than that, you have two pretty big question marks in terms of Kyrie. And Wood has his own issue. So I really hate this trade. I get it.

But I just, I don't get it. Well, no, it's this trade from what I see right now. Like, this is the, this is the trade that if you're a casual basketball fan and you just look at just the face value of this trade, all you've been hearing is Luca needs a co-star. Luca needs a co-star. So if you're just a casual basketball fan, you're like, oh shit, Luca finally got his co-star and it's Kyrie Irving, who you've known if you're a casual basketball fan. They know him from that shot in 2016.

team. They know how good he was in spurts with the Celtics. They know how good he was, even at points this season, right? But then there's the other side of that coin. And it was interesting because I was in Boston for the, for the Celtics Nets game, which I think was, if I'm not mistaken, that was Kyrie's last game as a net, if I'm not mistaken. They got blown out in that game. But I remember talking to someone pregame about like the Nets and what they were going to do at the deadline. And they were bringing up all these things. And they were bringing up all these like is such as such going to get traded. Such is going to get traded. And I brought up Kyrie. Like, and there was no smoke at that point. Right. But I brought up Kyrie is like, is this a guy that you think is going to get traded? And they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I felt it. I felt like we kind of forgot about what happened in the summertime that like, that it just went away when Kyrie demands a trade. And that leaves a crescendo. And then Kevin, ask for a trade. And I think that kind of got forgotten

in a lot of ways. And it was like, no, Kyrie, the same motivation he had in the summer, which was to get paid and have a long-term extension somewhere, that was still on the table. And do you think that we kind of forgot about like,

hey, man, I think it was like honky door. Like, oh, my goodness, the Kyrie and the Nets, they're just going to figure it out this season and maybe they'll be gone next season. I don't think people really realize that, no, there were still problems

beneath the surface with this Nets team. Am I the same painting? Yeah. Well, clearly. It just feels like some succession style cutthroat business moves by Kyrie to basically make sure that everything looks good on the surface, right? The Nets, when Kevin Durant was healthy, they looked awesome. Kyrie Irving has been pretty good this season. He's going to start the All-Star game.

And even if you don't think that he deserved that, he should have probably been on the All-Star team. He's having a career year in a lot of ways of scoring and assists and rebounds. Which helps. Yeah, because he typically doesn't play. So that's like been a boon. So he's been kind of on the face, the perfect soldier, right? When everything was going well during the winning streak in December, oh, this is the team that we all thought the next could be,

if they could just put aside their differences. When Durant goes out, they haven't been as good, but Kyrie has filled the void of being that guy when it comes to it. He waits until the deadline, until he could apply as much pressure as possible to drop, that not only does he want an extension, but then as a result of not getting that with the Nets, he wants out. And he's basically caused all of these teams, the Lakers and now the Mavericks,

to act with urgency. And like in terms of like a piece of business, it worked out well for Kyrie. I think like good on Kyrie. He's a big winner here because he gets what he wants and presumably a big payday down the line. I don't know what it means for his friend Kevin Durant back home. But I would say if I'm Durant, if I'm the Nets, I think this is a huge win for them. I mean, to get all the pieces that they got, to get rid of, because it says so much that, like, the Nets made this happen days after Kyrie demands the trade, right?

It wasn't like, oh, my God, we need, we need to figure out how we're going to keep them. They were like, no, it's okay. Mind you, it's Sunday right now. Trade deadline isn't until Thursday. They were like, no, let's get this shit wrapped up. Let's get this done. Let's figure this out. It's already happening.

for the ramifications, I think this helps a lot, like, because you go into a team, the biggest thing that whenever I see, whenever I see the Nets play, and I've only seen them a handful of time, to be honest with their team on the East Coast, but when I see them play, they need a lot more supplementary pieces, and they got that right now. And they got a shit ton of picks. They're in a good position right now. And also, like, good on Sean Marks and good on these people. Like, it reminds me a lot of, and we'll see how this plays out.

We'll see how Ben Simmons does. But this reminds me of, like, 07 when the Lakers and Kobe were kind of had their impasse. And Kobe may hate his trade requests. And the Lakers mindset basically on that was just sit tight, Cobb. We'll figure this out. You know, like, just chill out. And I know these are two different franchises, but it seems like that is happening right now. No, Kevin, chill out.

We know we got, we got, you have this many amount of years left on your deal. it's hard as hell to trade you already. Just chill out and relax. We'll figure this out. And it seems like they're on the road to doing that. We'll see what the market is and what other trades they can pull off. But what's next to you think for the Brooklyn Nets? Put your GM hat on.

What do you got? What do you think? What would you do if you have what you have currently with these sled of picks? You have a Ben Simmons who's still tradable. And you have a Thursday is the trade deadline. What are you looking for right now if you're Justin Vary your marks? Yeah, I don't have as good of like the curly locks as Sean Marks and the romantic accent. But I'll do my best here.

I think to your earlier question about why you do it now, I think that's part of it, is to try to swing a second move in order to maybe swing some of these picks and maybe some of these shooters that you have a surplus of now in order to call a different team. There's a report, I think it was by Ian Begley of S&Y, basically saying that the Nets have been calling up the Raptors, a team that we expect to be very active at the trade deadline. And so that's when it gets very, very interesting. I mean, if you're looking at the Nets right now, I think they're in pretty good shape.

Because basically the way the season is gone is you'd expected the Nets to have the high ceiling and the Mavericks to have the low, the high floor, basically. And they basically flip that right now. The Nets seem just like a solid-ass two-way team where everybody can shoot. And most players can play a little bit of defense. The question is, is that going to be?

be good enough for Kevin Durant. I think what they have now would put them in the mix, but probably not put them in the top echelon of the Eastern Conference. I don't think you're beating a box. I don't think you're beating a Sixers. And so could they swing

to the picks they got plus contracts for an OG and Anobie. Can you get a Fred Van Vleet in there? Does that really change things for Durant? Because I think the calculus is probably, not only are we looking for guys that can help Durant if he's healthy, which we'll see. But also, like, you probably need to get some star appeal into this team because I don't know

if he's going to be okay with being the Luca Dantric Mavericks for too long, even if it does make them a more solid team overall. Well, the interesting thing is though, right? Like, Ben Simmons is not, if you're Kevin Durant, Ben Simmons is not the number two that you want, right? Like, he shouldn't be the second best player on it. Right now. He's like number five or for six, I think. I'm sorry. I know, I know. But in terms, and I'm saying this for like the casual van who might be listening to this, because the name recognition, Ben Simmons to them is their number two best player, right? Is the one that they know. But I think, this is not reporting or anything.

I think that they should flip Ben Simmons after this, right? Like, why not? It hasn't been a, it's been a weird fit. He's played well in spurts, but there's just, there's just been things that have just kind of come up with Ben Simmons throughout the season. And if you need, and we both know this, we've watched a lot of basketball. When you're in the playoffs, which is what the Nets are right now, you need a number two that you can be relied upon. And Ben Simmons is just not that guy right now.

He's just not. He's a good, I think. If Ben Simmons is your third or fourth best player, you're in good shape. But if he's your number two best player in terms of name recognition, he is not the one that you want. I think this should come up off of him. One other thing that I would like to talk about, let's get messy here real quick. because I do want to get back to the Mavs point and what they do.

We'll get to that towards the end of the pod, but I do want to get into the messy part, which is the presence of the Los Angeles Lakers and where they go from here, right? Because where when this trade request came bubbling up to the surface, my first thought was, oh, it's going to the Lakers. Like, there's no, this is, it makes two months sense for this, for the Karee to the Lakers not to happen because you have the built-in infrastructure,

right? Kairie doesn't have to be a leader on that team. because the locker room roles are very much solidified already right there, right? All he has to do is just be Kyrie Irving. And if LeBron says, y'all want to play for Kyrie Irving for the next three years, he's going to get that extension, right? And as opposed to if he goes to, you know, the Mavericks, and, you know, we'll see, we'll push that off into the summer,

as Tim McMahon just reported. What do you think, how do you think LeBron is feeling at this point right now, right? where he there was a glimmer of hope he did the lebron thing where he does the sub-tweet and then also there is a question of like hey man do you want this guy on your team uh yeah it was like anthony davis all over again where does this put lebron right now in the future of where that happens like what do you what do you think where do you think he's thinking at this point do you think he's throwing another temper tantrum like he did in boston the other night when he didn't get the call why why me i was in boston on that yeah i thought he was hurt i thought he was hurt i thought he was

I thought LeBron was hurt and he was on the ground doing child's post. It was just more of, it was just more of an emotional hurt, you know? I mean, honestly, I think Kyrie would have made the most sense in L.A. Because they already have the stopgap for all the things you worry about with Kyrie, with LeBron and Anthony Davis, right? Like if Kyrie leaves over in the summer, you still have LeBron and AD.

And worst case scenario, you are just some facsimile or approximate. of what you are this season. And so in that regard, I thought like the cost benefit analysis would have worked the best with the Lakers. The problem I think ultimately is the Nets are a team that wants to win now, not only because they have Kevin Durant still on her contract,

but all of their picks are going to Houston at some point. And so they really can't tank and bottom out and really start this thing over again. And so a lot of the value, if you're the Lakers, you're giving the Nets, is future value, right? You give Russ's expiring contract plus the two future firsts

and maybe the Nets could swing that into something else. Maybe that has more value down the road. But having a Finney Smith, having a Dinwiddie, I think that gives the Nets something right now that it was always going to trump the Lakers. And so I kind of don't fault the Lakers to a certain extent. It sounds like based on

current reporting, they did their due diligence. They put in their offer of like Russ in a first and they were haggling. It just seems like they were never going to get to where the Nets needed them to get. And so if I'm LeBron, I'm disappointed because now we're falling back to, can we get a boy on McDonovic? Can we get some of these other guys? And, but I think ultimately the Lakers are probably in a fine spot. Like I don't think this like really submarines them in a way that it might look on face value. Well, it was interesting because the Lakers really played this season

out, at least from a front office standpoint, like they were waiting for this Kyrie thing to happen or something to come about, right? Because they could have used their picks or all, all that stuff. They could have used that on Buddy Hill. They could have used that on Miles Turner. But I think Kyrie, in terms of their roster, was the only guy. And also, I want to, there's a caveat right here.

There's no extension yet for Kyrie Irving. This could all come back around in July. Like, he could be a Laker in July. That's still on the table. But when, when you see, when I see the, Ky Reed from the Lakers point of view, they were playing, they were playing this like, oh, we'll wait and see.

We'll wait and see. And we'll see how this, this kind of unfolds. This doesn't change their plan whatsoever in terms of like their overall plan of like, hey, we'll see what happens. We have a whole ton of cap space in the summertime with Russ is expiring. We kind of got to like tread water until that happens, basically. That's how they moved, right? And even with Kyrie on that team, it's in my mind that roster is still another championship roster.

I still don't think, I still didn't, I still didn't trust it because of the ancillary pieces of the pieces around. Even if Kyrie were to go on the team, you still need certified role players to be able to get you to that title contention. So even if Kyrie was on there, it didn't really make a difference for their bottom line. I think it's tough. I think Kyrie, LeBron, AD, all healthy and engaged. That's a really tough team to go again, no matter who you're playing at the four and five spots. you know, like, yeah, are they as good as the Nuggets with a full season and all those guys back healthy and engage? Probably not. I wouldn't put the Lakers as a favor, but that's literally

the team I would want to see last in a play in or in a playoff situation. Like if Kyrie is like engaged and wants to like do well, we saw earlier this season. He could still be a very effective player. And so like I think the Lakers probably missed out there. But like again, I don't fault them for not getting this done because I ultimately think like the what the MAVs gave up was better than what they could have offered. Well, the thing is, and you touched on the MAVs, which is really, really interesting. Like, are the MAVs just thinking like this is just going to be all rosy? Because everything suggests that this is, this, there's, there's going to be a Kyrie moment where Kyrie just becomes Kyrie. Like, it's almost expected as much as like, you know, a two week

injury to Anthony Davis, right? Like every, like there's, it's going to happen throughout the season. Do the MAVs have the infrastructure to be able to manage that, you know? Like, do you have confidence in that happening? Because the Lakers forever, all the dysfunction that they have, we all know, we just talk about it. They have the infrastructure to be able to withstand a Kyrie, whatever you want to call it. Can the MAV sustain if Kyrie just something is. to his liking and he just goes scorst earth for the fifth time. What do the Mavs do if that happens? Because they gave up a lot to get him. It's tough because even Luca has been hurt of late.

I think he's missed three. And I think as we're recording this, he's going to miss his third out of five games. Kyrie, as we mentioned, isn't there a lot? And then what happens when they play together? Like, I think Kyrie has been a good soldier and has like woven him himself into a Kevin Durant team better than you would have expected. There really hasn't been the budding of heads there that could have happened. But at the same time, those guys were friends.

There was a preexisting relationship. And so there was more motivation to get it done. Maybe Kyrie just because he got what he wanted is going to play nice with Luca. But these are two guys that, as far as I'm concerned, don't have a relationship. Yeah. But JV., here's another thing.

You can make the argument with a large argument with the Brooklyn Nets that Kyrie, and I'm saying this in air quotes, got what he wanted. He literally went to Brooklyn with Kevin Durant, seemingly a perfect situation and it doesn't work out, right? Like we're talking about Kyrie, who was the most, probably the most unpredictable person in the league based on talent, because you just referenced it. Like, you called Kyrie an effective player. I mean, with talent, he is one of the best 15 players in the league. The reason why he's not, it's so crazy that he might not get an extension is because all the stuff around him and all the shit that he brings to the table other than his game.

And we were just talking about Kyrie's game. Yeah. Take Kyrie any time you want. He is worth that hall that you just sent to him if you were just talking about his game. But like there's just all the other stuff that goes along with it. One of the things that the narratives that it keeps putting out is that, you know, Kyrie has this preexisting relationship with Nico Harrison who used to work with him at Nike. and also Jason Kidd, which is very interesting, just like Jason Kidd as just a person,

because there's a lot of things that, you know, you guys can Google all the things that have happened with Jason Kidd during his playing career off the court, right? But somehow he's just this respected guy among a lot of NBA guys, right? Like, he has a respect of LeBron. That was a big help when he was on the Lakers staff. He has a respect of, you know, going back to Kobe. And he also has a seemingly, this is what's been being reported, that he has respect. the respective Kyrie Irving.

Like how long, how much do you think that that, how long of a way will that go into, you know, making sure he's in, in gear, not only for this season, but if they do sign him to an extension or however long they, they sign them to going into the summer?

I mean, it's nice that there's some sort of familiarity in like a support system in Dallas so that he's not going in there blind, dealing with people that he's never had a relationship with before. On the other hand, he went into Brooklyn with ostensibly his best friend, at least in the league and Kevin Durant. They handpicked their new coach in Steve Nash.

He basically talked about his relationship with the front office as if they were partners and like he wanted an equal say and everything. And it still wasn't good enough for him. And so like I don't know if I'm optimistic about that. And if anything, I'm pretty worried because it sounds like just based on the reporting as we're recording this is that the math is going to be in wait and C mode with an extension or another deal for Kyrie Irving, what happens if the trade deadline passes,

you're stuck with him for the rest of the season, and you're like quibbling with him over negotiations. Does he just sit out again? Like, that's the problem with Kyrie. He's just like a chaos agent, and you don't know what's going to happen. And if anything, you've just given him more and more and more leverage

if you're Dallas because you traded all these picks, your pot committed him to this season, and you have nothing else to replace him with should he walk in the off season. So, Kyrie has them over a barrel. That's a really tough. Which is wild, though, because, like, if the Mavericks wanted Kyrie so bad, they could have waited. They could have waited until this summer.

Like, I thought the Lakers would be more desperate to get Kyrie than the Dallas Mavericks because of just, you know, like the pressure that LeBron gives, you know, the pressure of LeBron brings and all those things and just the pressure to win now. Like, Luca's 23 years old. You got time with him. I'm looking at his contract right now. He doesn't have a player option until he's 27, the 26-27 season. You could have just chilled. If you really wanted Kyrie, you could have let the market dictate his contract in the summertime, weighed this out. Use Luca one more year and then go from that.

Bro, if they gave up all the shit that they gave up for Kyrie, he walks in the summer to your point about those negotiations. And then you have to deal with that shit for, what, three, four years? Luca's just like, dude, what the fuck, man? You did this and it just went over. Like, it seems like the Mavericks are doing it. a lot to lose in the first or second round of the playoffs. Which they probably would have done anyway. You get what I'm saying?

They probably would have done anyway. They're doing a lot to be in the same position that they would have done. Like their ceiling for me would have been like Luca, I saw him last year. Like say Luca goes bonkers. They go to the conference finals. I think that's their ceiling this season, especially other Western conferences. Like does this make them any better than that? I don't know.

I mean, last year, Luca got them to the West Finals basically by being the best damn player on the court. And so, like, there's always that to fall back on. Listen, I get it from the Mavericks. Like, on paper, having Kyrie Irving as a clear cut number two looks great. And if you're saying we needed to swing a major deal at some point, getting Kyrie as a distressed asset, I'm sure you could sell yourself on as just like a brilliant piece of business. But at this point, I think we really need to dispel this notion. if it still exists, that Mark Cuban and Mark Cuban's organization is like light years ahead that is like on the cutting edge. That is this like shark tank business. Wait, wait, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Before you get to this, we'll get to the mat to your fucking Mark Cuban slander in a second. But I just, hold on, I got a bone to pick with you because somebody on this call right now that

can't defend himself right now, Ben Cruz, who is a resident warriors fan, you dropped a light year's thing right there. And I thought that was a little below the belt. Because I think it was has been Cruz on that. I just wanted stick up for Ben Cruz on that one. Because that was a little, that was a little like, come on. I know, especially with the Seth Curry injury today. It's tough. Come on. I'm sorry. Okay. Back to back to

the back to the back to the mark Cuban. What were you going to say? Let's let's spell the notes. I mean like pretty much since the Chandler Parsons contract and the fiasco and the max or nothing bitch and all this other stuff. Like what have the Mavs done well? They continually strike out in free agency.

So if you're trying to leverage against Kyrie, like, well, if he leaves, we have all this cap space. Who the hell are they going to fill that cap space with? They have yet to sign a massive free agent to really make good on that, okay? Which is why, next point, they traded for Christopps Prozingis, a guy who was coming off of this complete season that he missed due to injury. And they kind of waffled about like whether or not they would extend them for the, give him the full max, all this other stuff at that time. And what do you know? They were over the barrel. and so they gave him a full max contract. Then the Jalen Brunson thing happens.

They completely botched the negotiations there. He leaves. They didn't offer as much as they possibly could. And so you're stuck now having to trade for Kyrie to make up for those past mistakes. And you're just making an even bigger mistake on top of it. It's just compounding, compounding and compounding. And you're at the point now where you have Kyrie, Luca, Donchish, Christian Wood is your big three. And you can't even be certain that like,

two of those three guys are going to be playing for you. And if they are playing for you, can you count on them to show up? Can you count on them to like give it? They're all any given night. This is just like a complete train wreck of a situation. And it's just like, you know, it's no more Mark Cuban genius shark tank shit anymore. You know, he is, he is now probably low end of the league in terms of like, like forward thinking front offices.

Have you saying, you said, Mark, damn, dog. How long you've been holding on to that one, dog? I watch a lot of Shark Tank, you know? And Mark likes to jab people a lot there. He likes to be the big boss on the set. You seem like a Mr. Wonderful guy. You're Mr. Wonderful guy, aren't you? I'm a big wine guy. So we go hand in hand there. Yeah. Jeez. Well, the thing is, I think that like, if they lose Luca, that will be one catastrophic, but just so unnecessary because Luca's the guy. He's, if you don't even do anything wrong, if you just just, just. just be average as a front office. He's going to stay there for years. Like, it's the perfect environment for him. He doesn't really get, like, Dallas doesn't get, like, the biggest thing that they had was, like, his weight issues.

But Dallas doesn't give a fuck, man. They just, they're just happy to win. They're just happy to be there. They're lit. Like, I love the Dallas fan base because they're just chilling, man. And if they get to the Western Conference finals, it's a, it's, it's, it's the cost doing business. It's great.

It's vibes. It's all that stuff. But, if, I feel like the mavericks are doing everything they can to fucking to fuck this up. And I will be, I will be so upset because it's such a perfect match for Luca and the Mavs. It's just such a, it's just such a perfect bet. One other thing I wanted to ask you, though, I want to go back to, let's take a trip back to Brooklyn. And I was just thinking about this with the Nets.

It's interesting because, and I'm going to be the first to say, I don't know what Katie's going to do. I don't know what he's thinking about this move right now. I have no idea. No. But I think what the Nets did is they not only help themselves like for future if they want to make a new deal right now like by Thursday to like appease Katie or whatever they would want to do. But say Katie wants to get like a get a say I want no, it was cool man. Like I came here for one more year. I want to get traded again. Like it's I tried. It wasn't it wasn't what it was going to be. Brooklyn's still in a great position because all they can do. Okay, bet. this was the most stressful four years we ever had as an organization. Let's just wipe our hands of it. And we still have the same infrastructure by and large that we had when pre-Kady and pre-Kyrie,

when they had the DeAngelo Russell Brooklyn Nets, where basically they're just trying stuff. And they have the infrastructure to do that again. So they're in a good position as well, right? Like I wouldn't be, Brooklyn somehow got out of this pretty good. Yeah, I mean, based on the circumstances. Listen, Brooklyn and Sean Mark specifically has been here before. Like he's someone who like started poor became incredibly wealthy, but never lost that kind of like ethos of being a scrappy poor person.

Like he's just going to go back to just like grinding out low first rounders, second round picks. Like he even got Spencer Denny been doing, Dinwiddie back in this deal. One of his like brilliant success stories where he turned a guy into something out of nothing, right? So like, I can't wait for it. winning his ball out, bro. I can't ever did what he did a ball out in Brooklyn, dog. It's going to be great. He's going to be great back with the finance bros in New York. Like, he'll just talk

crypto his entire time. He'll be great. The problem is, though, they will ultimately fall into the same place that they were before Katie and Kyrie came where they have this amazing context. They have all these role players and nothing surrounded with. And so I do think you're right that, like, the Kevin Durant situation is the biggest question mark going forward. So do you try to trade for another upgrade to try to appease Durant or as we're seeing reports now from Chris Haynes specifically are teams like the sons, other teams

are they sharpening their fangs and saying like let's go get KD out of there because he's not going to want to stay there. I think the big question honestly and I'm curious how you think about this as someone who's been around KD for a while is like does Katie now look at this situation as the biggest

inflection point he's probably going to have left in his legacy? Because he could stay, make the most out of this Brooklyn team and basically turn this into one of his greatest triumphs. Basically what a lot of people wanted him to do with the Knicks when he left the Warriors. Go start your own thing. Take a team that hasn't had success and make it into something, right? Or you could flee the situation, go to the sons, play with Chris Paul, and do the thing that you have been doing now twice in a row and would be a third time. Do you think like he's more inclined to do that? Or do you think he's more

inclined to stay put and be like, you know what, I'm going to stay put and make something of myself right here. Well, it's interesting because I don't know, I think it's based on his current relationship with the Brooklyn Nets front office, right? Because it's so weird and convoluted and just like, it's just, and I've said this before, like he's, after last season, he didn't even talk to them for however, whatever the reason was, right? He didn't talk, he didn't talk to them. And demanded a trait he's I don't I don't I know I know you're not supposed to do this but I don't know I don't have an answer for you in terms of that because he's like Kevin's one of those guys where you can't have a definitive answer on him and what he wants to do because he is literally

the only one that knows what he's going to do people around him have no have no idea at any given time like they might have context of why he made those decisions but But ultimately, Kevin is the one that knows exactly what he wants to do and what his motivations are. And that's just covering him and trying to make predictions and things like that and just being around him. I know that's like a cop-out answer, but you really don't know when you're thinking about what he's going to do. Because seemingly, like, let's look at his Brooklyn Nets tenure, right, where he is, he built this in his image. He literally built a team in his image and what happened, right?

James Harding comes because of him. Kyrie Irving is literally on the Brooklyn Nets because of him. And this was all built in his image and it didn't work out for whatever reason. And it wound up being two guys that at point in times were really good friends of his

ending up leaving him. I don't know where you go from here. And he is the guy that is, that is really takes the relationship seriously, right? Like, any relationship he has takes it seriously and also kind of takes shit to heart. Now, he may not say that, he may not say that publicly. He may not, he might, he may say something along the lines of, you know, that was Kyrie's life, man, and, you know, I'm supporting him wherever he goes.

And he said the same thing when, when, it's also interesting. These two trades happened when KD was injured. Like both of these guys left him when he was injured. With the same injury. It's very eerie, right? But he'll never say it. But it's got to fuck with him that James Harden somebody that, like, he loved at a point in time. I think he still got a lot of love for him, left him.

And Kyrie, the reason why he left Golden State was because he loved Kyrie and wanted to try something new with him. and Kyrie wasn't the best teammate to him and ultimately just left on his own accord. Like, I know that that has to mess with you. I don't know, I know that he's probably, like I said, I know he's probably going to say something along the lines. Well, that's my man. We knew what was going to happen.

I love Kyrie, vibes, all the stuff I wish him well. But at the end of the day, Kevin's alone. And which is kind of weird. It's like always just kind of Kevin. And it's weird to just go down that path. But that's literally like, just being, you know, just seeing around, that's kind of where it's always been.

And it's, you know, it's sad when you think about it, right? Like he, at the end of it, like, he made this in his image. He went to the Nets for Kyrie Irving. Yeah. And now he's the only one left. Well, let me throw this back at you.

So he can go to another team like the Sons. He could stay put in Brooklyn, make his own path and play this out. which I would probably prefer just because KD versus the world is like a really fun thing to watch. I don't think it will happen for too long but maybe give us like half a season of it, right? But there's a third option,

which is to go home to the Golden State Warriors and just run it back. So there's two trains of thought on that one and I knew you were going to do that. You're so messy. You're so messy, JV. But what I will say on

that there's two trains of thought right there's this there's a step train of thought which is like you know step we got ben cruz in the chat saying let's run it back yo man the warriors are i went to go watch them last night when step got injured it's not great in golden state there's so much that needs to be done right now but like there's a step point of it and step like really want and i really wanted that katy thing to happen like he not really wanted it to happen but he was really intrigued by the idea of it, right? Where he was like, oh, okay. And, you know, we had Marcus Thompson on ruins a couple weeks or a couple, maybe a week

ago. And we had like a whole Golden State conversation. Y'all can go check that out on the ringer NBA feed if you haven't yet. But basically, like, basically I think that when you talk about Katie going back, it's just not the right timing, man. it's not. It doesn't feel like that I think the Warriors are going to look so different next year. And I

don't know the moves yet and I don't know everything that's going to happen. But they got their own shit they got to figure out. Can I say it quickly though? Can I give you the sales pitch? Give me the sales pitch. So Steph Curry, as we're recording this, just went down with an injury. We don't know how long he's going to be out. Maybe it's a month, you know? We just know that it's going to be a significant amount of time. so he's out of the picture. The whole like big

problem it seemed like in Golden State and there were many was that Katie could never really reconcile the fact that this was Steph's team or that he was kind of this ancillary component

mercenary type to the clay Steph Dremont Corps. Now Steph's out. Katie comes back saves the day from a season that seemed like it was circling the drain.

They could never really get on top. They were over around 500 for so long. Here comes KD on the white horse, ready to bring the warriors back to prominence, back to what they used to be. He is now the savior. This is what I wanted to say. This is what I wanted to say. The thing about, this is the argument for Katie coming back. Okay. Is that he never really left the warriors. If you really think about it. He never really left. Anytime he talked about it. He talked about it. He talked about the warriors during his time in Brooklyn, more than he talked about the Brooklyn Nets.

Is that because you guys kept asking him about it? Well, I mean, he also didn't have to engage. It's true. It's a good point. He gave his most insightful conversations about the warriors, right? Or even the pictures he posted on his gram. Or even like when he always, every couple of weeks you could always count on Kevin Durant to relitigate how his time in Golden State went. Even I remember, and I was talking to this with Mark as the last episode, like, I remember

like Katie's first year in Brooklyn, he randomly posted on his Instagram a picture of Damian Lee who had a good game with the Warriors the following season, right? Like, this is my guy, right? Yeah. Kevin has never left. Whenever, when, when Steph got his three-point, um, the three-point crown in New York. He went to a party out in New York. Guess who was there? Kevin Durant with the gang, right? That's the argument that he can,

that he would come back, that he just never really left. And also, if you, if you ask a lot of people, like, Katie got the, the savior complex. You can make the argument that Katie has a savior complex, right?

Which is the reason why he went to, to Brooke, it's like, he wanted to do it with Kyrie. You guys don't know about, Kyrie, that's my partner. That's my homie. I'm going to show you that we can make this work.

Y'all don't know about Kyrie the way I do, right? And this is to your argument about like him saving the warriors, right? And I'm not saying I know anything. I'm not even there. I'm not saying I'm not doing all that. But you can make the argument because KD has that. Oh yeah, I'm a captain save the warriors right now. I'm going to figure that out.

I'm going to see what I could do. I'm going to show you guys. how much y'all missed me. That's the argument for you to. So, yeah, I can see that argument. You are messy as hell, JV. You're messy guy. There's no practical reason

for why Katie left the Warriors. It was the best team in recent history, one of the best teams in all of the history of basketball. There was no basketball reason for him to leave. It was all about what he was feeling about himself, his career, about the people around him,

about Kyrie. So if everything is so illogical, why can't he just set the record straight? Well, no, I'll push it back on that. There were some reasons why he left. There was some reasons why he left the Warriors. And maybe they were made up in his mind and stuff like that. But there were legitimate reasons in his mind why he left the Warriors. You know, whether it be just, you know, he felt, I mean, we can make fun of the fact that like,

and I know this is hilarious because this is a Kyrie podcast. it was somehow we got to Kevin. But like, he didn't feel as welcome as he thought he should. He did feel like KD and the Warriors. I mean, he feel like it was KD and the Warriors. And that's an indictment on the Warriors in his mind, man. Like they didn't, like, whatever they didn't figure out to make Kevin Durant feel a part of all of this, they're going to have to eat that.

That's something that the Warriors are just going to have to eat. Like, they had no problem making, you know, all the other guys that were Warriors feel like warriors, why couldn't they figure out how to make Katie feel like a warrior? That's an indictment on them, right? Just like it's like to say that like he went for, he left

for no reason. Obviously his feelings was hurt. Obviously he didn't, it wasn't a sustainable enough place for him to want to stay out his career. Now, relationships have been repaired since then. He, you know, him, you ask Steph about Kevin, there's nothing but bubbly conversations

about it, right? Like him and, Katie and Draymond did a podcast together just setting not one podcast

for it was like it was like a feature for a feature Draymond did his Rebleacher report Dremont did his Reblee's report and then he had

Draymond on Kevin's podcast right like they are very much like they're always tight they're always going to be tight and I think now

the difference between then and now is that Kevin actually like feels like, oh yeah, I am a warrior. I am. I am part of this fabric. It's not Katie and the Warriors. When I go get my jersey, we're tired or get the statute done, I'm going to be in the Warriors family for life. Can he say the same thing about the nuts right now at this very moment? At this point, no. Right. They might, yeah, there will be a lot a burning of Katie's jerseys. I don't know if they'll be hanging them up anytime soon. Hey, there's some fire nets, Brooklyn, KD jerseys, though. There are some fire ones. I don't know if you want to burn all of them. There have been some great throwbacks.

The Koji ones are great. Yeah. All right, man, let's, oh, before we wrap this up, let's, I want, let's get to some predictions really quickly. Okay. I'm going to give you three teams. What happens with the Brooklyn Nets going forward? What do you predict? I would guess that they tried to make the best of this situation. They tried to swing a second trade in order to appease Kevin Durant. I think they try to, like, at the very least sell him on a half season of making a go at this, but ultimately fall short and he asks out in the offseason.

I think that's the most likely scenario. I would, again, I hope he would stay, but it just doesn't seem like they'll be able to sell him on, like, you get to play with. with stars. And you know this more than anybody. Like these guys just want to be playing with guys that they feel are on their caliber. I respectfully abstain from this specific prediction just for the simple fact that like I don't

know most of it. I don't know the Brooklyn angle just yet. And I don't want to get aggregated on some BS for some stuff that I'm like speculating on. You know what I'm saying? So I'm 'm going to abstain from this. Let's what happens with the Mavericks ultimately? What's the prediction

on the Mavericks ultimately? I think they probably end up where they're going anyway, which is maybe a second round playoff out. You always have Luca and like as we saw last season, like just get him the ball 50 times a game and he can make something happen. But I think they'll be good. I think Kyrie will be on his best behavior with the hope of getting an extension, but long term, I still think it's going nowhere.

I think that is probably their ceiling is what they have been, which is like probably get a first or second round team out of this. Maybe Luca can power you into the, the West finals, maybe even the NBA finals, but I just think long-term, there's just like something that isn't right there. And I just don't see him figuring out until like Luca ultimately has to come to his own decision.

I have not fully ruled out the possibility that Kyrie can just fucking burn this shit to the ground in the next couple of months. Because he still... In the off season? Yeah. Well, like, to the... You referenced this earlier, and it's true. Like, Kyrie in the next months,

if they're going through negotiation and he ain't liking what he hearing, then it could go really, really bad because he got mad at the Nets for putting a championship clause in his deal. Like he's been the most reliable guy over the last few years, right?

And if there are like, because there's any sane team will put language in the contract, put incentive language in the contract. And I think the Mavs, they have to, I think that they have to. So if they do that and it goes,

I think there's a potential for this to go sour in the next couple of months, like really bad. So that's my prediction for the Mavericks. All right. Last one. What do you think is going to happen with the Lakers? It's a tough one because there really aren't

a lot of guys left on the board. Personally, I think their best path would be to go out and deal one of those first round draft picks to get just another guy. Because if you've watched them lately, they're in a lot of these games. I was watching them against the Pelicans the other night.

And it's just like, they just need one more solid guy. So at the end of the games, it's not just save us, LeBron, because Anthony Davis, for as good as he's been, and he's been a two-way monster whenever he's been healthy enough to play. He looks completely gassed at the end of these games. And they need him so much now that he's playing true center to basically be your all-out, like stopper on defense, that he really isn't a guy you could turn to late in games.

and create offense for himself or just like hit that big shot that you want to. So if they just had a boy on Bogdanovich, I don't know, someone on that level, just to like fill out the rest of the team without giving up some of the rotation guys they're counting on, the Pat Bebs, the Lonnie Walker's. If you could turn Ross into an actual guy,

I think that they could be pretty good to probably end up end up in the play in, maybe get into the top six, but although that's unlikely. I think that's what they should do, what they end up doing, it's really hard to say. I wouldn't be shocked if they do nothing. And then we're talking about what a disappointment that is.

So I've seen the Lakers quite a bit over the last month. They just come around. They've just done the, I've just happened to be seeing a lot of Lakers in person. And I think it's going to go really bad, Justin. I do. I don't think there's, because it has a lot centered around. And they're in a lot of those games.

but the common denominator of why they keep losing these games is Russell Westbrook, right? Like the fact, I think if they would have just, they can't bench him yet, right? They can't. I mean, they could, but they haven't. And him still being on the roster is going to, you talk about down the stretch and all those things,

that's not going to be good for them. Because I was at that game in Boston, and I'm going to be honest, Russ lost that game for them. There was a lot of things that he was so bad in that game where there was the play that I keep referencing down the stretch where he has an open, like Al Horford is just giving him an open three, right, down the stretch.

And he says, fuck it, I'm going to take Al Horford to the cup. And he ends up throwing like an airball layup when LeBron's in the corner. And LeBron was hot in Boston. It was one of the best games I've seen from the season in Boston. He was playing really, really well. Wide open for three. Instead of passing away wide open hot LeBron,

you throw up some bullshit air ball. And that's basically been the Lakers down the stretch for much of the season. And so what I think's going to happen is, man, if they don't make a deal. Because I just don't see another deal other than getting Kyrie Irving is something that's going to be a, game changer for them. I don't know what the deal is out there for them to go get. And so what I think is, Brown going to get his record. They're going to continue to, I think he's going to lose interest.

They're going to flood down into standings. And he's probably not going to end the year playing. He's probably, they're probably just going to sit him out. That's, I think that's the most logical thing. If you put me there, like, if you keep asking me that, I just think that that's what's going to happen. It's like, LeBron's going to get the record. He's going to check out. And that's what's going to be the season right now. We're going to figure it out. We're going to have another. summer. Sad. That's tough, especially because as bad as it's been for the Lakers, they're right there. You know, like the West is so jumbled up that if they just play well over the last couple months of the season, they're right in the play and mix with every other team. Like, they could

easily jump in out of the play. And like, bro, I don't trust nobody atop the Western Conference, bro. I don't trust the Nuggets. I don't trust the Memphis Grizzlies. I don't trust the Kings. I don't trust, I don't trust anybody, right? And I think that's the argument that I keep coming back for the Warriors. It's like I just don't trust anybody else's infrastructure right now. It's getting really tough on that end. But the same can be said for the Lakers. Like, dog, you can talk yourself into this.

Bro, the Pelicans, your old stomping grounds, you saw what they were one of the darlings of the Western Conference to start this season. And then they just had a tailspin. What's to say that another team won't do that? And then you can just go right into their place. it's just a wonky Western conference and there is a chance like the Lakers can be a good team, but they're just fatally flawed with one guy. And I think that's ultimately going to fuck them up. Yeah, it's right there for the taking, but they're going to have to be playing better over the next couple of months than they have thus far just because they've dug themselves into this hole.

And so that's going to be the tough thing. They do need something if they do want to be in the play in mix or like maybe Rob Polinka is just like can sell LeBron on the idea that like the deal that would solve their issue. isn't there and just go into the offseason, you become a much better team in the offices. I don't know what would happen in the office season. That would be different because I don't think this year's free agent class is all that great shakes. But I don't know, man. I guess we'll find out over the next couple days. And that, ladies and gentlemen, was a glimpse into me and Justin Vierier's Monday meetings. You guys are welcome. Thank you so much. Yes, just without the personal development. But that's a separate Patreon level podcast.

Yeah, yeah. That is not a ringer. podcast. That is only one me and Justin Very split the bread on that. All right, thanks man so much, man. This was fun. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me.