The Ringer NBA Show - Lakers Earn NBA Finals Game 4 Win Over Heat | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 7, 2020

Justin, Rob, and Tjarks convene right after the tight and scrappy Game 4 of the NBA Finals to talk about the Lakers’ win to go up 3-1 in the series (0:32) and the Finals MVP race (32:57). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is a late-night edition of the group chat. Today we're going to talk about game four of the NBA finals and all the good stuff that happened in there, KCP, Tyler Hero, and maybe a little bit of LeBron, Anthony Davis. All that and more coming up on group chat. Welcome to an after-dark edition of group chat, the ringer's weekly NBA group discussion where we talk about Hero Sandwiches and KC MVP. I am Justin Varyer.

me tonight at 8.53 p.m. Pacific time. Much later in Jonathan Charks's neck of the world. What's up, Charks? Hey, man. Always from the new basketball late night. And Rob Mahoney is here. Hello. What a game. I feel like this is clearly the best game of the NBA finals. Let's just get right into this one. Charks, who do you think was the story or perhaps the MVP from this game? I mean, I always say Davis. Like, I know there were a lot of times where he didn't seem like he was in the flow of the offense, but This is one of the game. So he was plus 17 and 42 minutes. And I think that number wasn't really lying.

Number one, he guarded Jimmy Butler. He took him out of the offense pretty much, pretty consistently. Butler couldn't score over him. He had four blocks. He took so much tension on defense. He had four assists when he had the ball. And then those three at the end of the game. When 80s hitting those jumpers, it's so deflating.

It's like, what are you going to do? Like, they're playing great defense. And it's like, oh, yeah, I'm seven feet tall. He'd fade away jump shots. Go home. Yeah, I feel like this is a very charks. adjustment by the Lakers here, putting the big guy on the best wing score. Rob, what did you think about that adjustment and just like the trickle-down effect to the rest of the game? I mean, you could

tell it kind of took them a minute to figure out exactly what they wanted to do. The Lakers, I mean, in terms of, are they going to switch Jimmy Butler pick and rolls? Are they going to under them, which is what they ultimately kind of settled on and makes a lot of sense? It's always a little uncomfortable when you're asking Biggs to guard perimeter guys by default. There's just a lot of action there. They're not always used to, even if you are kind of a freak of nature like Anthony Davis. I think over the course of this game, they absolutely figured it out. And they really kind of bottled up the heat. I mean, how many times did we see a Miami shooter curl around and just get swallowed up

and have to kill their dribble and waste eight seconds off the shot clock while they're looking for something? I mean, the Laker defense in the second half was really spectacular. Yeah, what I love about finals games and games with really just elite coaches like Eric Spolstra, Frank Fogle, also doing a lot of good stuff in the series, is that you could see the chess mask playing out in real time. you saw how AD was playing off of Jimmy Butler at times, just because Jimmy's just not as much of a threat to shoot. And then the heat like instantly countered where they ran a little bit of a screen where Butler screened for Robinson.

And Robinson shoots so quickly. He got that three off. I just love the chess match in the series. And it's even better when you have Bam-Aa adibio back in the game. Didn't have Gorin Drogic, but having Bam and I don't know if it was just like the strategy match, but whatever it was, it just felt like, this was both teams at their best for the first time, right, Charks?

Yeah, I mean, for sure, I think the first three or four plays AD went right at BAM. It was like, okay, who's the big dog right now? It was really cool to see that. Like, who's the Kentucky big man? We're not messing around one-on-one, let's go. And yeah, having BAM out there,

it was a totally different game with having Kelly and Myers. It's crazy all one player. It went from a Kelly Myers series where it was like, everyone's shooting three up and down game to like Bams in, there's no spacing. It's like grinded out, like Slugfest.

I mean, this also felt, like a game where, man, he'd really missed those eight good Kelly Olenic minutes, right? Like, he just had a completely kind of empty performance in this game versus in game three was so crucial, so valuable for them. And man, they really could have used a better collierlinic night. You know what it was? They only played Dwight eight minutes. He had that first stretch and then it was like, okay, this is serious basketball.

Get out of here. Let's go. Like, no more time for this. Three-time defensive player of the year targeted and played off the floor. 2020, man, it's a trip. Anthony Davis had 42 minutes in this game. It felt like every time you looked up, he was getting hit in an eyeball

or was on the ground about something. But man, he really battled this entire game. And like you guys were saying, it just felt like LeBron was in and out of this game. He kind of turned it on late. But even when he was in air quotes, taking over, it was very methodical. And it was almost, I don't know,

wasn't him at his best. He was basically daring. the heat to guard his deep three, so he was just taking a ton of them. And then the Lakers, just by the dint of, like, Rondo getting these offensive rebounds, guys just like hustling and giving them extra possessions, he just kept getting to the foul lines. It was a very manufactured LeBron performance, but I guess in a game like this, that's, like, enough to give you an edge.

I feel like this was a big game for the random backbreaking Laker three-pointer, whether it was LeBron dishing to Caruso or Markeve Morris, or, as you were saying, LeBron stepping back and taking a long three, they just had so many of those really timely shots that buckled a heat run. And some of that, again, comes from LeBron being methodical,

comes from him controlling the game. And you feel, you know, if you're in the Lakers position, I would imagine it feels very different in the second half when he's doing all that versus in the first half when disengage isn't the right word, but he was kind of feeling it out a bit more. When LeBron is in control,

there's just a fundamentally different texture to the game. I think that's what we saw, at least, you know, certainly in the third and fourth quarters, even if the shot distribution kind of looked similar. You got to get the Lakers' role guys credit. Like those guys, they're giving open shots. They played great defense. They made the shots when it mattered.

They're not really like three and D guys. They're like D and like, uh, maybe three, but they made them. Like they made it when they counted. Like KCP had a, what, five points to the end of the game. It really felt like that game was like, man, they earned that one. Like every player out there's like, y'all were, y'all really earned that game. That was just some really, really high level, intense,

grind it out. It felt like a Pist and Spurs game from like two decades ago. I think Eric Spolster is going to have nightmares about that one sequence in the fourth quarter, Jimmy Butler has a pretty good look at a corner three, misses it, and LeBron gets it going the other way, finds KCP in the opposite corner, nails it. I think, so it would have been a potential of one-point lead for the heat, ends up going five points for the Lakers the other way. I mean, those kind of swings are brutal in a game like this. Especially with the Lakers, how bad they are in the half court. Like, oh, they got an open transition basket. It's like, oh, my gosh, it feels like a 10-point shot.

because they don't have to happen to scoring. Would you describe that KCP bucket as a clutch shot? Hey. Clutch? Really? It's funny because in the midst of this game, I started looking up 2019 free agent shooters. Because I was thinking to myself,

man, I know like waiting for Kwai Leonard was probably the right move, but had they just gotten like a JJ Reddick, I know Malcolm Brogden, someone like that, how easy this game probably would have been for the Lakers, just considering how long. many open threes that he were giving them. But credit to KCP, man, it's funny that like a couple years ago, we forget how he was almost like the model of a three and D sort of guy. And clearly, he lost his way in many different ways. But tonight was pretty much everything you would kind of hope

from him. He was, he was only three for eight from three in this game. But I feel like every three he made was a big bucket. And I feel similarly about Markief Morris, who wasn't even honestly all that good in this game. But as we talked about, he wasn't Dwight Howard. And so he just gives you such a different stylistic look, a little bit better spacing, knock down one or two threes, which is kind of all you need. If you're going to be a Lakers role player and get those open shots, you know, the percentages weren't great for him, just like they weren't for a lot of the Laker guys on the whole. But you make enough of those, you can really beat, you know, certainly punish a team like the heat when you're also locking them up on the other side. It's interesting because it's kind of the reverse of his

Cleveland teams, where those teams are all shooters and they played so free. But they couldn't really get stops. And this is the exact opposite of that. And I'm not sure what's better, but you definitely can see the end of the game. I think Robbins gave up like five points. But the Lakers just have no defensive weak spots anymore without playing their bigs. Like every single guy can guard multiple positions. It's just locked in.

Well, it's funny, though, because if you were to look at this Lakers team on paper, you'd almost say to yourself, if you're the heat, like, you kind of want them to stretch it out to get smaller. So a lot of those iffy wings who might not hit a couple shots, Danny Green still. nowhere to be found in this series. You know, Alex Cruz is going to come and go. Rondo, you don't know what you're going to get from him on a given game. He was one for seven in this game and 0 for two from three.

It feels like that strategy is going to play into the heat's hand, especially because the heat do such a good job, especially in this game, of packing the paint and making things difficult for LeBron and AD without following. Like, you could say it was the refs, you could say it was whatever,

but I think it was LeBron had taken three free throws by the half, and those were the only free throws the Lakers had taken. So, credit to the Heat, man. They really figure out a team and really force them into their worst possible shots. Yeah, I mean, let's not forget the fact that this did work. You know, the Heat Game Plan did work.

They were right there in the fourth quarter, right there down the stretch. No matter what Jimmy Butler says, they are the underdog in the series, and they're already down Goran Dragage, already, you know, bam out of bio is out there playing as best he can, but it's also injured. You know, they were where they needed to be in this game.

It's just a couple shots, a couple swings. And as John alluded to, too, a couple defensive breakdowns by guys like Duncan Robinson and things, too, that really hurt them. The one thing I'm wondering, like, could you get Iguodala out there more? I feel like he guarded LeBron the best of everyone. But if it's Iguodala, Bam, Jimmy, it's just not enough space to survive. Like, can that work in a fourth quarter? I mean, it's tough. I think that while it was nice to see Bam out of bio back in this game, clearly the heat were lacking Goren Drogich,

because what that means is more Kendrick Nunn. And our guy is virtually unplayable. And it's really sad that, like, we saw just really, really high level basketball tonight. And if you really want to come down to it, like two for 11 from Kendrick Nunn probably swings this game. It's just like there's nothing that he could do that. It makes him like playable in this game.

I mean, if you're going to be a rookie out there, like you need to hit Tyler Hero shots. You know, like you have to be able to do the big stuff in the box score because you're going to get killed in a lot of other areas. Kind of subtle team defensive stuff is going to slip by you. Certain guys are going to get the edge on you on the glass, whatever it may be. You have to at least hit your shots. And, you know, I mean, credit to Kendrick Nunn, I guess,

for trying to finish over Anthony Davis what seemed like eight times in this game. I appreciate the gusto, but it's not what you want. What do we think about Jimmy Butler in this performance? So close to another triple double, 22 points, 10 rebounds, 9 assists. But it feels like, as we were saying after game three, that if Jimmy isn't going to go off for 40, if he isn't going to be NBA finals historic good, then he might not have enough. It's really tough because Jimmy played incredible yet again, but it felt like they just needed someone to be everything for this team to win, and they just didn't get quite that.

I would say it's a flip. It's having BAM out there at five because Jimmy is so dependent on spacing. It's just the game is so different when it's a BAM at 5 versus Myers or Kelly at 5 series when those guys are either Jimmy is going to attack the basket AD was in foul trouble the last game

and it does feel like Jimmy he's just not going to get 35 4 unless everything plays out just right I mean maybe he's going to shoot more maybe he's seeing right now like sometimes I think you saw in this one like when 80 80 and LeBron hit what four threes and all those

threes felt like absolute backbreakers and like sometimes Mr. Midrink you just got to take that three-point shot. You just got to have it in your bag at this point in the playoffs. The defense packs the pain so much. You need your star to hit maybe one or two threes. That's the difference game right there. I wonder if there's a way to, you know,

it's hard because Jimmy Butler is playing 43 to 45 minutes in these games. But is there a way to maximize his time with Kelly Olinick, with Andre Agu Dahl at the 5, get the floor space in a little bit different way? And it doesn't even have to be in the fourth quarter. Like, you could do this in the second quarter going in. into halftime where Jimmy's going to get a little bit of a blow. You know, over the last three or four minutes, have Jimmy go ISO picking out his guys going one-on-one,

you know, getting to that mid-range stuff you would normally do in crunch time, but you use it to kind of milk a lead or build a lead a little bit more earlier in the game. I would say the flip is like to do that. That means you need Bam to do even more. You need Game Six in Boston, Bam, where he's running the offense through him. He's scoring and passing. Bam had one assist, eight shots. I mean, when AD is guard, AD guarding both those guys is just so,

tough. I was thinking about like when Bam got the foul on AD, how many guys in the NBA does Bam not have the athletic edge on is very, very few? All of a sudden, this seven-foot monster comes out there. And it's like, he's just as big as me. He's bigger. He's fast. He's just as fast. He's longer. What am I going to do? I'm not a great shooter. So do you think that they should have gone with Kelly Moore in this game, or was he shooting so poorly? It wasn't even worth it. I mean, I don't think if he's playing this way, I don't know how much further you can stretch him. It's just about who he's playing against and who he's playing with and trying to maximize that aspect of it, I think, as much as anything.

Just because, I mean, this was a tough night for him. And some of it was, you know, like there was a stretch where he, Bam, and Iguadala were all playing together at the same time. I would bet that that trio hasn't played more than, you know, a dozen minutes together all season. Like, it's just kind of an unusual grouping to put out there. And some of that is the fact that Iguodala can guard LeBron or AD as you need him to can kind of bounce between those guys, gives you some flexibility.

But I don't like that kind of look for him. I'm a little surprised that Myers-Lennard didn't get any look tonight. I mean, I guess when AD is playing the way he is, like nobody was going to be able to have success there. But if Olinick wasn't going, you almost wonder if you could ride the hot hand with Leonard in that situation. I guess if you're doubling anyways, right? If you're doubling AD anyways,

and maybe you can maybe have him out there. But it does feel like this rotation is pretty much cut to the bone now. Like, I don't really see any obvious adjustments for Miami at this point. Well, especially if you're going to front as much as Miami has been doing, Myers-Lennard, not the optimal, not the optimal fronting candidate. You know, there's just, there's a lot of beef to move around there when he needs to get back on the back side.

It's kind of like when a restaurant has something on the menu that you can't wait to try, but you don't usually get it. And then all of a sudden, the Bam out of Bio just like comes up there, like, ooh, got to get the Bamatabio tonight. Like, it's really good. I had it last fall. It's like the pumpkin spice latte of the NBA final. But then you go away from your old faithful in the Leonard.

Wow, we're really reaching now. Then you have it and you got a stomach ache. And here you are, down three to one in the NBA finals, man. That was like watching a Kendrick Nunn drive, your take right there. It was going somewhere and then I got to get the shot up somehow. I don't know. Maybe it'll go in. The fact that there was a metaphor there and it wasn't Myers-Lennard,

who was the pumpkin spice latte somehow, I don't even know how that worked out. By the way, this wasn't just a make-belief scenario. I had a pumpkin spice latte the other day. And let me tell you, man, those things are good. I have no shame in drinking those. Those things are incredible. Congratulations. Do they have a lot of pumpkin spice down in Dallas?

I mean, they got Starbucks here. Everyone, they got hipsters. They got Starbucks. Oh, I don't go to Starbucks, man. I go to the hipster pumpkin spice latte, the underground. Very on brand. I like it. On that note, let's take a quick break.

And when we come back, we're going to break down the rest of this game for the NBA finals. All right, we're back. We're still talking about the finals because it's the only thing going on in the NBA. Believe it or not, for once, this is the only thing happening as we're talking. KCP got a Zoom game, which is the new version of the podium game. So congrats to him. Let's talk about adjustments here.

We talked about him a little bit right before we broke there. Charks, if you are the heat, do you see anything else that they could maybe do besides maybe toy around with some Leonard and a lot? clinic minutes. Yeah, I think it's tough. Like we even saying, they're already cut to the bone, whereas the Lakers have more moves in their back pocket. I think like you got the, it's not a Kendrick Nun. Maybe a Nunn Butler pick and roll. He gets someone to get none free and hopefully can, he needs like, probably 10, 12 points somehow by like hooker by crook, conjure up some baskets for him, I think is the big thing. I think if the Lakers, they have a lot of moves still. Like, I think

my first time I was Lakers, I would probably take out Danny Green and play Alex Caruso. So I thought Caruso on heroes been a really good match for L.A. Yeah, it was kind of a scary moment there where it looked like Caruso was going to have a pretty serious hip injury. And all of a sudden, you started thinking about how that's going to contract

the Lakers' rotation and how much they rely on a guy like him and a guy like Rondo, for example, in this game. I mean, those two came up with so many big deflections, drawn charges, offensive rebounds. The Lakers need that kind of random offense, I think, to really succeed in a series like this. And it's a little precarious when that much falls on Alex Caruso's shoulder,

but this is where we are. Playoff Caruso, man. The Ball Deagle. If we were going down the Lakers list of most important players, so let's say AD in LeB or 1A, 1B, just to not have that discussion again.

Bold. Who's number three? Is it Rondo? Is it Caruso? I mean, I think it's pretty telling that in every high leverage situation in the series Rondo is on the floor. Whether it's defense, whether it's offense,

like Frank Vogel trusts him a lot and this this pains me personally to say having been a Rondo skeptic even in the prime of his career really of his impact on the floor but he's he's changed the series he's changed so many games in these playoffs for the Lakers I think he just finds ways

those offensive rebounds in those threes like Rondo just finds ways somehow to get it you hate to be like oh like savvy veteran stuff but he just does things out there he's always being active he's contributing I mean it's like I really feel like Rondo's

making this Hall of Fame case right now as like, okay, he's going to sound like that conversation. He turns us into cliches. That's all we can, all we can do is spout the veteran cliches about Rondo because they are unfortunately very true. Yeah, this is a big win for every veteran coach out there because I do feel like these are classic winning plays.

And as much as I've really dinged playoff Rondo for, well, most things that he's done on the court, especially in the regular season, And it just felt like he was around the ball constantly. He had the steady hand. But I don't know, man, Caruso, the one find the Lakers have had in this LeBron era outside of just the guys, the retreads, the guys that we all know about, he's really, like, stepping up and becoming a significant player for him.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him starting by next season. Yeah, I mean, really their whole bench, right? Like Morris Cusma, Rondo, Caruso, for as much grief as he'd give him, the Lakers, but they're depth. That's four two-way players. Morris and Kuzma have knocked on enough shots. They're big guys. That's just really unusual to have four two-way players on your bench who can contribute at a finals game. Look at the heat bench. How many two-way guys on their bench? Zero. Olinick, Iguodala, none, right? Even their starters, Robinson, Hero. The heat has three, two-way players. The Lakers have one, two, four, five, seven, two-way

players. Well, and Morris, especially for a late season fringe kind of pickup, you know, like a waiver-wire type guy. You know, they plugged him in at the end of game three to try to get stops on Jimmy Butler and Crunch Time. He played really important minutes in this game. Again, just if you as a big or a quote-unquote big can be on the floor for 30 minutes in an NBA finals game, that's a win. Like your production is gravy. But being on the floor, sopping up minutes, having even a neutral impact is really important. And really like compare him to his brother, like, Marquif knows his role. Marquif's not going to jack crazy shots.

She shot the opposing team's belly. Maybe he'll do that. But Alina, like, he knows his role in like his brother who's like kind of messed up the chemistry in the Clippers a little bit. Yeah, so what do we credit to the Lakers having success with some of these kind of retread guys, some of these guys that we kind of expected to be washed by this point in their career? Do we credit the front office more for taking chances on guys who had very specific skill sets, especially, you know, they'd had some success on the defense event.

It seems like the Lakers really built that identity and really everything spun off from that. Or do we credit LeBron for basically breathing life back into guys like KCP, guys like Rajan Rondo? Are the front office and LeBron discreet entities? Mm, that's true. I mean, certainly they're not doing anything without LeBron's input, right? Like, Rajan Rondo would not be on the team if LeBron didn't want him to be on the team. When you have the best player in the league vouching for these guys,

I think that goes a long way, regardless of whatever some guy in your pro-personnel scouting department or your analytics department says about how good they still may be. Anti-analytics Rondo? Is that what we're saying? Jimmy Butler got a lot of love there because apparently this was a discussion that Jimmy Butler was thought to be an anti-analytic guy, but then people are saying, no, he actually is an analytics guy. I don't know if I really like, yeah. What does that even mean?

Well, there are some guys who We really just talk about them via their P.E.R. Their war or stuff like that. I'm trying to think of who's a prime example of this. I'll think about this as we go along. But I just thought of Butler as a B-class superstar, which seemed to be pretty accurate at that point. I don't know.

I don't think he's elevated himself beyond a certain point, right? I mean, I think there's still a lot of consensus that a guy like Anthony Davis is probably above a Jimmy Butler in the pecking order. You know, there's still a LeBron and a Kauai and a Janus. And yes, the heat beat the Bucks, for example. I don't know that that makes Jimmy Butler a better player than Janus. You know, this is a nuanced conversation that I think Spoh has very delicately jabbed, you know, in the stomach with the idea that guys, I think the root of it is that guys can still be successful from the mid-range. You know, a mid-range-based player can still be very very. effective. Because if you're propping up Jimmy Butler, who, as far as I know, is one of the

superstars by any kind of like adjusted plus minus RAPM based metric, like, you know, one of the truly elite players over the last five to eight years, I don't really think the idea that he's not an analytics darling passes muster. I would say it's a lot of it too is like they play such a warrior style basketball where it allows Jimmy to be part of a motion offense where his lack of shooting isn't killing them. That's the thing that's most impressed for me about Jimmy in these playoffs is his ability to pick and choose his moments, right?

He has the 40-point game against Milwaukee. He has the game against Miami last night. Then it's also, I can take a step back and let Dragich go, let Hero go, let Bam go. It's that ability to kind of play on and off the ball, which is impressive for God doesn't shoot threes very much that he's able to do that. I think he's sufficiently aggressive at this point in the series.

He's driving about as much as a guy like Jimmy Butler can drive. He, like they even note on the broadcast, he does pass out of a lot of what look like potential layups, but I don't think he's wrong to because those layups are against LeBron or against Anthony Davis. That's the thing. He just tried against the 80s like. It seems like a very low-level LeBron discussion that we were having during his tenure where it seems like Jimmy Butler is making a lot of the right plays. And I think his box score really speaks to that near triple double, as you mentioned. He's really good at just like drawing fouls on guys, especially the ones that don't typically do it.

I mean, if anything, I think the discussion about what he might be lacking is actually the more broad, like, barbershop conversation of he needs to get 30 or 40 every game. And that's what they're really lacking. They're lacking a go-to score, especially when you don't have drojic to, like, supplement the butler. So you're not getting 40, 50 between those two guys. You're getting 22 and then six from Kendrick Nunn. So. I mean, you certainly feel that when, for example, late in the fourth quarter, BAM at a bio, kind of inadvertently. Certainly, ticks the time off the shot clock, doesn't even get off an attempt on that one possession.

Tyler Hero or Duncan Robinson again are just kind of draining, you know, draining possessions trying to get open, trying to get to their spots. This is why late in games coaches always default to the ISO stuff for the most part. And we, you know, we can have these high-minded conversations about why don't coaches run more elaborate action. Why don't they run more off-ball stuff to get guys really good looks, kind of textbook, you know, like NBA Twitter type, uh, ATO, porn. Why don't they just draw of that stuff? I think the answer is pretty simple in that one, they're trying to be as risk averse as possible and avoid turnovers. And we saw in this game what every heat turnover can do for the Lakers offense. And the other thing is it just waste so much time. And that's where, you know, Jimmy Butler is a really good one-on-one player if you can get

him the right matchup. But when the only matchup he can seem to get is one-on-one against LeBron or against Anthony Davis. That puts him in a really tough spot even for an excellent player. So we talked a bit about BAM earlier, but physically, Charks, how do you think he held up considering everything about him at this point was just about how healthy he was going to be in this game? He seemed fine to me. I don't know. I didn't really notice him. It was an upper body injury, right? So it's not like he's like dragging on his legs or anything. I think it's interesting you saw when they put AD on Jimmy and that leaves LeBron on BAM. I think if you're Miami, maybe the adjustment is BAM being more aggressive.

I like that one rebound they had in LeBron where he kind of flexed on him and yet pointed him in the offensive blasts. Like, LeBron is old. Like, Bam's got to attack. If 80s on Jimmy, that means Bam's got to get going. I think that to me is maybe the adjustment is like, I need that Bam was giving me 20. For time by these missing points, Bam probably needs 25 points in game five. The rebounding, I thought, was a bit of a factor for Bam. Because, you know, as we saw in the Celtic series against when he is a super high level rebounder against a team that's going small,

For example, you know, when the Lakers are running out Marquief Morris at center, you know, he's matched up against someone who's not AD. If he's able to just kind of beast rebounds, that could be a big factor, especially when guys like Caruso and Rondo, as we discussed, are coming in from the three-point line and picking these things off. So as we're going along here, our friend Cooper Moorhead from The Heat tweets out that the Heat had two of their best offensive performances in game two and three of the playoffs and two of their worst in one and four. just circling back to the earlier conversation who was the MVP, I almost feel like it might just be the defense as a whole. That might be like the biggest surprise I have. I mean, we talked about all the ancillary guys

who have been able to play above their heads or whatever you want to call them this season. It's just surprising to me just like what a dominant defense the Lakers have and just how they're able to, even though the heat are just such a versatile team that can kind of pick apart whatever little flaw you have there.

They really just, they haven't really had. had overwhelming success consistently against this Lakers defense. I guess that's a credit to Anthony Davis, just probably emerging as if not the best player in the league and certainly top three, top five sort of guy. Yeah, I would say against the Lakers, you have to spread them out.

That's the only to score against Lully is to space them out, get that length moving out of the pain. But if you're playing multiple non-shooters against AD and LeBron, there's just no room in this pain to score. You're going into traffic constantly. Yeah, and I mean, AD being able, It is funny, like, not to go back on an old thing, but I remember in that Milwaukee series, and everyone's like, well, Milwaukee can't break their scheme and put Yonis on Butler.

It's just impossible to do. It's like, no, it's not. Like, these are basketball players. Guard that guy over there. It's not that complex. It is pretty crazy, though, because 80 is on Butler for most of the game, if not in the entire game, which he hadn't done throughout the series. And yet it seemed like he was still able to just dominate at the rim.

His rim protection was just as good as always. I don't know how those two things like happen simultaneously, but they managed to get both of those from AD, which is huge. Well, some of it I think is a credit to KCP, to Danny Green, to Caruso, who are coming up high off those screens, both on and off the ball, handoff stuff, whatever is the heater running, and really challenging and chasing those shooters off. Because if Anthony Davis has to break from going under on Jimmy Butler, if he has to really get out there to get a hand up,

that's when you start putting the Lakers in rotation. That's when you stretch them out, this team that is so tall, is so long. But if you put them in lateral rotations, they're going to struggle a little bit. If you force them to cover a lot of ground, that's where they're going to start to show their weaknesses. And those wings for the Lakers who, you know, some of them had good offensive games, some of them didn't. But I think consistently we're able to kind of chase some of the heat shooters around and at least get a hand in their face on a lot of their shots without fouling too much. So I feel like every dominant defense of a certain error has its own little trademark, has its own little calling card.

the warrior is probably the most recent example. They kind of brought back switching on mass in vogue and having all those guys being of the same size, so they're able to do that. Is there anything you guys see with the Lakers that allows them to have such success like this? Is it AD? Is it the fact that all of these guys that we're talking about,

some of the insulary guys, are so long? Do they do anything in particular? What do you think? For me, I think it's the dual intimidation factor of AD and LeBron. It's the idea that if you get past anyone on the perimeter, both of those guys are kind of lurking. And you see, you know, especially with this heat team who they don't have a lot of great finishers inside through contact.

They don't have a lot of really explosive vertical type athletes who are going to be able to go through or over a guy like LeBron. I mean, who really can. But you see them defer a lot. And it's not just Jimmy. It's pretty much anyone who's getting to the rim. They're passing out of that stuff. And that's where, I mean, this is a really good heat team.

And they just looked scared shitless sometimes when they're able to even get by their first. They want to pass out into threes. It's part of what they do. I understand that. But no one wants to break a defense down and find Anthony Davis or LeBron waiting for them. It did seem like AD at the rim. They were like, no more of this at a certain point.

Except for none. Everybody else is like, all right, this isn't going to work. I brush by something else. I think, too, it's not. It's that. It's just perimeter length. They're just so big, man. Other than Ronda, everyone like, Green 6,6, KCP 6, 6, 6,000,

Morris and Kuzma 6-8-6-9. Just a huge team, right? It's like, I guess it's not small balls, it's medium balls. Everyone having so much size and the, right? That's the thing, it's perimeter length. So it's no longer small ball or big ball. It's just ball. Come all the way back to the beginning.

I mean, you brought up Rondo, too, as being potentially the smallest guy in a lot of those lineups. You know, we didn't talk after game three, but he was like a rim protector for them in that game. They cut those long arms. Oh, absolutely. I mean, and he can still get up. So, you know, when that's your smallest player on the floor, when he's that long, when he has those kinds of instincts, it puts you in a position to do a lot of interesting things.

You know what I also find myself remarking as I'm watching Lakers games is just how big LeBron James is, especially considering everybody else is sizing down across the league. He is massive. And I'm sure part of it is like in his old age, as we can all attest to you, you get a little bit thicker in certain areas, which is to say even though he is a world-class athlete, just like a little bit more. bulky, especially in the facial hair region as well. And it's crazy. Like, they size down in air quotes, and he's functionally the four, I guess, or whatever you want to call him. And he's just as big as the biggest guy on the heat. It's like really a huge advantage. Weirdly, I think the time it's hit me

most is on these Zoom calls, where you see LeBron sitting in this chair taking up literally the entire frame. He just built so, you know, his shoulders are so wide. He kind of looks like, you know, those guys, will sit there and kind of push out their biceps with their hands when they have their arms crossed, except those are just his normal biceps. That's just what his body is at this point. Is that the new age version of wearing a t-shirt under your jersey in college, James Harden, and you just look a little bigger than you actually are? All right, we're going to take one more break here. When we come back, we're going to talk finals MVP and our predictions for the rest of the series.

All right, we're back one last time to talk about the biggest question looming over these finals. Is it AD? Is it LeBron? Is it playoff Caruso? Who is your finals MVP? If you were to cast a vote right now, Charks, who would you go with? Oh, man. It's weird because I think AD's been the more effective player.

I think, like, as he goes, the Lakers go, right? He had that bad game three. They lost. He was so dominant on defense. But it also feels like LeBron has the ball team to games. A doesn't really want it, right? Like, am I crazy? or does it feel like AD is kind of like,

just take it out, I'll be over here, I'm good, you know? I mean, game three kind of felt like a little bit of an AD disqualifier to me. Unfair as that may be, but this is a small sample. Like, you only get so many cracks at this thing. And for him to kind of fall within the seams of the game the way he did,

it's certainly making me look at his candidacy a little differently. Yeah, especially because for him, somehow he's gone through his entire career, I think, following out three times. And all of a sudden he had the worst, like foul trouble he's ever had early in the game. That was just wild. And I think the worst part about that is it affected him throughout the game. Like he was clearly hesitant. And I understand being a

little bit more passive because you don't want to pick up tic-tack fouls so they need you on both ends there. But he really just kind of faded away and never came back from that one. So that was a tough one. But I tend to agree with charks where in their three wins, I look back on them. And statistically, LeBron has kept pace with AD, but I feel like AD has had at least one or two AD games. I don't know if LeBron has necessarily had one game, two games where he's just like taking the reins and it's a classic performance where we're definitely going to give him the finals MVP. Well, especially if you look at this, if you look at this Lakers team as a different version of a Alan Iverson Sixers or a Derek Rose Bulls where it's like, as we've discussed, they win with defense fundamentally. That is the best thing that they bring to the table. AD is the most important player on that side of the ball.

I could see LeBron getting some kind of drafting off some benefit from that as being, you know, the confident playmaker for this team that is also an elite defense, if that makes sense. Versus AD may actually deserve more of the credit for that. Really, it's just the way they fit together so well. So game two, right? They can't guard AD. They go to a zone that opens up LeBron, right? And it's just like, and then it's like off the court.

like AAD needs LeBron. Like, Justin, what's talking about your article today? That was really good, I thought, kind of getting into their off-the-court dynamic. Sure, yeah. I mean,

it was kind of looking at Davis and his, I wouldn't say flaw in New Orleans, but the thing that really held him back was I don't know if he ever really embraced being what the Pelicans needed him to be, which was unfair to really begin with. They really needed him to be LeBron 2.0

to basically take the Sashel Pavlovich's of the world, the Anderson Vergerald and just like lift them up in order to be a consistent playoff contender. And he didn't really do that. So it was this weird situation where you constantly felt sorry for him and sympathetic for him because they didn't give him the right guys. But on the other hand, statistically, like I think he has the third best PR of all time right now. It's Jordan, Anthony Davis. And I think we forget that about him sometimes. PR is, I mean, it has its flaws. But I feel like it's a pretty good indication of just like on what level. level he has always been. He's always been on a Hall of Fame track. We've always been comparing

him to Kreme some of these incredible centers of years past. But he just, the way I put it, was he needed to be both the best player and the most important player. And I don't think he really grew into the latter. And he really found himself the perfect situation with LeBron. I know he wanted to play with LeBron because he's, LeBron. He was his friend. He was, uh, they had the same agency. I'm sure. Like one thing we do with AD is we kind of think that he's, this Tim Duncan clone where he's like, he's just about winning and all he does is go home and play StarCraft. I do think that's a little much because I think AD does enjoy some of like the, the thrills of being out in L.A. and being that guy. But I think he really needed LeBron to show him how to do both things, to be like the vocal leader to do all the things in between being so dominant on the court.

I mean, nobody plays StarCraft anymore anyway. I just played Diablo too, which I, which I did for months as the quarantine started. So I don't think I'm any better. But yeah, no, it is crazy even now, like just how well they compliment each other. I mean, even D. Wade is out there basically saying that he, AD, compliments LeBron better than he did, which is saying something. I mean, I guess it also helps that they're both two top five players in the league. And even like the best big twos outside of the Lakers.

Like even Paul George Kau, you're not going to get that level of dominance in two players. Yeah, and too with like AD LeBron, like the one thing 80 has never had is like the big passing numbers, right? He's not going to directly make guys better. He had four assists. That's good. That's good passing him for AD, right? LeBron gives him that offensive engine to make everybody else go.

He kind of does his own thing comes in and out of the game. I think if it was like AD Kauai, it'd be awesome, but still no point guard. Adi needs the point guard. He needs the leader. I mean, it wasn't surprised me in a year or two. I think if 80 wins this year, gets that ring and he kind of becomes more confident, I think getting that first ring will be huge for AD.

I feel like really for all these guys, it's that weight off your shoulders, that first championship, you've earned your stripes. You can't be slanted too much anymore. You've got the ring. Well, maybe not. I don't know.

When's the last time we've seen, like, a dominant big man without the right point guard to compliment him? I think that's a really great point. And, like, probably is the one thing you could say in opposition to what I wrote is like 80's still a 610 guy who throughout most of his career was playing not traditional center but like was doing traditional big man thing he was catching a lot of lobs he was he was shooting from the midrange

but his face-up game wasn't what it is now and so you really need that other guy and i don't know look at look at yannis i mean he still needs people to get involved and when he wants to do point Janus, you've seen how teams have been able to really stop him from hitting the levels he should be at. Well, I wonder in this MVP conversation, too, if we need to kind of consciously check the general big man bias. You know, like this award generally goes to guards and wings. Point of fact, I think there's stylistic reasons for that. I think there's factual reasons for that. You know, as we talked about a lot in, you know, over the last couple weeks and months over who's actually important, what positions are most valuable, that stuff all plays in here. But again,

we're talking about a dominant defense. We're talking about a dominant defense. in a defense that's built basically around Davis and his ability to cover space, his ability to, if you need him to guard a guy like Jimmy Butler. And I wonder if part of it, LeBron, by the nature of his game, is going to fill the box score in a different kind of a way than a guy like AD.

But do we have to consciously push back against an idea like that because of everything that Davis gives you in terms of your holistic defense? I think, too, about defense, right? That's the king move. Remember last year was Kauai guarding, Janus, right? When my best player can take out your best player,

that's me, and I think sometimes too, we have these conversations about who's the next great player, and I love Luca. I mean, Luca's my guy. That's never going to be him, right? When you have that ability to guard score and guard, like, when LeBronk guard Derek Rose all those years ago, it's like that ability, that's just the

next, like, right, that's checkmate. Okay, Jimmy's going, I got AD on. I'm like, that's no real adjustments, though. That's just a kind of checkmate to me. The last time of center won a final MVP 15 years ago, Tim Duncan, 2005. And I guess to your point, Rob, Tony Parker has that finals MVP. Kauai has that finals MVP. Even Paul Pierce over KG.

There's so many cases like this, I feel like. I guess Dirk got him. That was the last big man. Dirk, I mean, yeah, Dirk was playing next to Chandler, though. So I don't know, he's a big. So that's, we'll give him half a point for that one. What about if we included the entire playoffs? So it's not just the final series.

we're talking about the playoffs as a whole. Is it still AD LeBron? Do you add anybody else in there? If you do the full bubble, do you get some Devin Booker love in there? What do you think? I think I, you know, as we're talking about this more, I'm kind of coming around on Davis's case for the finals.

And I think I'd be there on Davis's case overall for the playoffs when he's had even more, you know, singularly important shots, even more huge dominant performances. I mean, we're talking about a guy who effectively ruined, into the Rockets, for example. You know, like, that's power. Same thing with Westbrook, right? He guarded Westbrook.

Like, that's the thing. It's like, they're playing 80 at the 5 on offense and then using him to guard one of the hosting's best players. That is just some king stuff right there. It's like, that's really carrying on both ends of the floor. That's just some like next, next level, just awesomeness. He's got to work the media. He's got to get Jonathan Charks writing that take specifically.

AD did some king stuff by guarding all of these different players. I've heard of like four AD pieces. I'm out of AD takes. I mean, Markief Morris is working it for him, although he's also working for he's stumping for LeBron and AD simultaneously, which is truly admirable shit, honestly.

I do think that has effect on people, as much as we don't want to admit it. Like, Bill keeps saying on his podcast how AD needs to score like 50 each game in order to beat LeBron, because LeBron is the narrative MVP. I think probably enough people listen to that and see that is almost a reason

to not give it to LeBron because you're almost negging him not to give it to him, right? I think this stuff matters. Okay, I got to make a point now that we're trying to talking about this. Like, this is classic wrong with American society, right? The Lakers are a team.

Oh, boy. We got to make it about individuals. By the way, this whole MVP that's crushed the regular season is so stupid. Every year it's like, who has the least amount of help? That's the MVP. It's like, that's not helpful when a championship.

Have you ever noticed? us how the MVP never won the championship it's contradictory. They'll say, oh, Yonast Sammy Pickey has no help. Well, that's not a good thing. Like, who cares? It's a team sport at the end of the day. Just how to get that out there, sorry. This is surprising to me, Charks, just because it feels like you

tend to go the opposite way where you want people to lean into takes, but this is like a take telling people not to have a take. This is a real mind-eff going on. I don't know. It is a bit much sometimes our society. I guess sometimes, I guess. This is Dad Charks coming.

coming out. It is. It is. On that note, let's talk about these next games here. So game five is on Friday. Do the Lakers wrap it up here? Do the heat force of the game six or even a game seven? I mean, I feel like we're going to see the same game again.

I don't really see too many adjustments left. And obviously, Miami was right here. They're going to compete. They're going to fight. I could see them winning one more game, maybe even two, but are they going to win three straight games. It just seems hard to believe. I had Miami and six for the series start. I'll stick with that. Yeah, I think the heat get one more. And it just comes down to, as we've been talking about, what are the flukier or fringe elements of this game that could

swing the other way? You know, it's Rondo picking off Bam out of Bio on a rebound for a random steel to get Danny Green a layup. Like, if that play goes a different way, then, you know, the end game of this game looks a little bit different. I think there's enough of those things that could swing to the heat, that their game plan, you know, again, within the, the confines of what they're working with and the fact that you have to guard Anthony Davis and LeBron is good enough to at least get them one more win. Yeah, I think this goes one more game. I think it's a credit to the heat. They just, they grind, man. You saw it in this game and like they've had offensive games where they've been close to 50, 40, 90, just as a team, which is

mildly incredible. And they were right in this game. I feel like a couple of those threes from the Lakers that don't go down and all of a sudden this is a different game. Maybe Kendrick Nunn actually plays like an NBA player. Who's the say, you know? It'll be great to have more games of basketball because we're like teetering on the edge of like watching Langston Galloway practices from these like auxiliary bubbles that are happening across the league. So let's hope we get one more game here. Let's wrap it there. That is it for us tonight. We'll be back on next Wednesday as per usual.

Thank you to Sasha for staying up late with us. Thank you to you guys for joining us. And we'll be back next time. Until then, we'll see you later. You know,